The quantitative abortion poll

I would really appreciate if everyone could be kind and civil about this. I'm already paranoid here someone's going to hunt down my IP.

I have neve been in a position where I've had to make this unbelievably personl and difficult decision. I think the fact that many people keep silent about abortion is one of the reasons it has become stigmatized. I know personally and have worked with many women who have had abortions. My Mother had two, one of which was pre Roe v. Wade. I am pro choice and support a woman's right to have an abortion for any reason and in every situation. You, my friend, are awesome for starting this thread.

I've voted, and thats all I need to say I think :)

While I have not had an abortion, I have several friends who have, including a friend who had a pretty late term abortion due to fetal incompatibility with life. I'm 100% pro-choice. Abortion should be legal and safe; I want that for myself and I want it for my daughter.

I've had one, and I'm about to be in the UK version of Marie Claire talking about it.

my mom's had one. didn't NARAL recently have a campaign to try to publish a bunch of names of women who'd agreed to "go public" about it, in the hopes of destigmatization? am I totally making that up?

"it's almost impossible not to take personally jibes against those who've had/needed abortions."

yeah.

I'm trying to figure out why the NARAL campaign vaguely bothered me. destigmatization would be wonderful, obviously, and all the women involved with it volunteered the information. I guess it just makes me mad that it's necessary for women to forgo privacy to make people consider that hmm, maybe someone they know has had an abortion, so maybe they shouldn't be total assholes about how they characterize women who've had abortions.

Yeah, same here! And since my paranoia knows no bounds, I'd worry that future googley employers or neighbors would find out and Bad would happen.

sadly, I think your paranoia is probably justified! this is a great thread, though, so thank you!

VOTE PRO-DEATH

Was für ein Goth!

On this thread I'm just a dude, but I have a 19-year-old daughter and I want her to always have the right and the option if she needs it.

my landlady wrote a play about this. It was called One in Two. Because 50% of american women have had abortions.

That would be 25% of the entire population.

I register for classes tomorrow for my first semester in a Masters program in Women's Health where I'm concentrating in Sexual and Reproductive Health/Rights. This whole thread is fascinating to me.

The nurse in the office during the surgery noticed how distraught and in pain I was, and in an attempt to stop my wiggling and moaning, she held my hand and said, "You're going to get a tootsie roll pop after this. Think about what flavor you'd like when you're done. You could have orange, you could have raspberry, you could have chocolate..." I felt like I was five years old again.

Oh, that's so cool! Congratulations - and good luck.

Part of the reason I decided to go back to school for nursing was my interest in women's health.

XPOST, obviously!

Abbott, did that approach help you?

It did help me, because she was genuinely a kind lady and it was obvious her attempt to calm me down was sincere, but mainly because it was so highly unexpected!

ENBB, that is an awesome degree, and I'm happy you're getting into that field.

xpost - hmmmm. I'm going to remember that, thanks!

Are you going into a health related field?

Yes- I'm a post-baccalaureate nursing program. Eventually I'd like to get a master's degree (but good lord, I'm 35 and I'm getting another freaking major, it's kind of ridiculous...).

I'm pretty sure the US armed forces' medical coverage for abortions is limited strictly to extreme cases because they don't want the statistics on the number of abortions military members and their wives receive being available with a simple FOIA request (among other bullshit)

I'm opposed to abortion, but then again, i've felt guilty (sometimes for up to a half an hour) after knowingly killing an extremely tiny bug. I think it's because I was raised Catholic.

That being said, one of my very good friends had an abortion, and I completely understand and supported her...It's obviously not an easy choice.

understood*

I'm pretty sure the US armed forces' medical coverage for abortions is limited strictly to extreme cases because they don't want the statistics on the number of abortions military members and their wives receive being available with a simple FOIA request (among other bullshit)

interesting. i have heard they encourage having kids, or make it easy, or something.

i always like to think that if i were a woman, i would consider it my right to talk about choices such as this. all perspectives are important, if we can find the right way to voice them.

that's how the service plays you dude. "Recruit [soldiers/marines/airmen/sailors], retain families" is how they run the game. You sign up single, get a steady paycheck, realize Sar'nt leaves the married guys alone a lot more often than he does you single knuckleheads, hook up, and start poppin' out babies. Next thing you know you're a fucking lifer. Hoo ahh.

are you still IRR, Tombot?

you shouldn't feel bad about it. i would get one in a second if i had an unwanted pregnancy, there but for the grace of god etc. etc. many friends have had them and for good reason. i don't think there is too much of a stigma outside christian groups?

There is in towns or areas that have more than a minority of Christians, in my experience.

well, that's lousy. like protesters outside the clinics bad? i think i would move :/

No, not that bad at all, but just knowing that you would really lose your standing in the community if anyone found out.

Even in Melbourne there are protestors outside many of the clinics (inc the one I had to get to). God, theyre awful. They have no sense of decency or shame or tact at all.

only someone's family should know ideally...it shouldn't be anyone else's business, like any other medical matter.

xpost to milo: I can burn my duffel after this thanksgiving.

like protesters outside the clinics bad? i think i would move :/

I went to PP recently to interview for a volunteer position and had to go past the mostly old mostly male protesters. It made me so mad.

Mine was on the third floor of a building that was just a private OB-GYN clinic. Really discrete, I don't think anyone knew that was a prictice done there.

This same town DID have churches that all put tiny crosses in their yards to show all the tiny lives taken by abortions. I had a private joke with my boyfriend about taking a photo of earth dug up in front of one of the crosses, revealing nothing was buried there, and making a pamphlet called "Did 26 Million Really Die?"

Just keep it to yourself and don't take any of it personally. It's easy for people to be against it because they never needed to consider it for themselves. There's no point in arguing, if someone thinks it's Murder because their holy book says so, then that's their problem. You're not going to convince them of anything else because their deity is always right, in their mind. Even though he doesn't even exist. He certainly didn't write the damn book.

If anything, if trying to keep quiet doesn't work, I'd even go as far as playing the devil's advocate: every time they ovulate and don't conceive, that's HALF A MURDER! Every time they ejaculate and don't conceive, that's millions of potential christians that don't get the chance to see the light of day and the wonderful free and happy and peaceful world we've built here... They're at least as "Sinful" as anyone who did have an abortion.

I suspect that I'm like a lot of self confessed liberals who've managed to - just about - overcome their religious upbringing in that I'm ambivalent about the issue abortion. And being male doesn't help in that there isn't the visceral understanding of the issue. That said I do know and have completely supported women who have had abortions - not that that should have made any difference to their decision to have one.

On one hand a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body must be paramount and on the other hand there's the consideration that a potential human life is at stake. I'm pro-choice because a complete, independant human being's choices should always come first IMO. But sometimes the last remnant of my Catholic guilt gives me the odd pang about having this stance.

I've talked enough about my experience on other threads, round about the time it was happenning. Making the decision was one of the worst experiences of my life, and nothing I would EVER wish on another woman. But it is the WOMAN'S decision, and I would fight to keep it that way.

I do believe that the man can have some input as well. Ultimately though, yes it is the woman's decision.

I haven't had to myself, but I've been there for friends who have. Abbott, I think it's horriffic you feel you would loose standing in your community - I can't begin to imagine that extra pressure on top of the normal swirl of abortion emotions. I firmly believe in a woman's right to choose, but I also believe in a woman's right to stay quiet about it if she so wishes - just like with any other medical proceedure.

Sounds like a horrible debate coming up, I hope it stays civil, Abbott.

As to the thread question, I think a lot of women saying publically that they've had abortions would destigmatize it, but I wouldn't put that responsibility on anyone, especially if you think there would be such negative consequences in your community.

I have had an abortion and I also run a non-profit abortion funding organization to help low-income ladies pay for an abortion, since I don't feel like the amount of money in your pocket should determine if you have the right to choose or not.

you may donate to that fund by sending a paypal donation to equalaccessfund at gmail dot com OR visit www.myspace.com/equalaccessfund

If I was 15 years old (or even still in my twenties), I think I would, naively, proclaim one needed to *battle* these anti-abortionists and fight for the right to choose. I still stand firmly behind my opinion but I am not as millitant about it. Now, realizing that some people will never understand what it really means, from the right to choose to how difficult it is to have an abortion, I would and do remain quiet about said matters unless someone specifically asks. But when confronted with people who are on the opposite side, I think I would remain quiet altogether, especially if it means you/I would lose standing in my community. I think it's wrong to be stigmatized, but sadly that's how it works in some communities. :-( I have never had an abortion but I deeply feel it is a woman's right to have one. What I have come to realize through the years, encountering friends/people who have had abortions and what it entails, this is such a difficult area. There are so many shades of grey. I also realize that, even though I'm very adament about being able to choose, I know/knew so little about abortion and what it entails. After hearing a friend's experience, I realized how difficult it is. I mean, of course I knew an abortion is never an easy decision, but after hearing what happens in the clinic/to your body, I felt such sadness (for everyone involved).

It's such a touchy subject. I reply but fear what I say could be misinterpreted. I seriously hope I haven't offended anyone. Really.

Maria, I would hope this would work, but I doubt the ultra-anti-abortionists will never change their mind. Or at least very few do. But I understand that it is a slow process and keeping quiet doesn't help at all.

it is tricky to figure out when it is just smart to play it quiet and when you are just being a doormat. as a queer person, i have certainlyt learned when it is best to not walk the walk or talk the talk, just because it makes it easier. however that doesn't make it any less insulting to me - that i have to hide a big part of who i am just because it makes it easier to get along with society that way. it definitely makes me angry that people should have to do that. you shouldn't have to suffer a scarlet letter for taking a stand on abortion, or no having had one. i think it's great that you have the opportunity to take a stand on this in an official manner - to articulate your thoughts. people who do that in a public domain have always been so impressive to me, so impactful.

and women need ppl to do that. i mean in a way u can look at it like ur responsibility to, in your own small way, pave a path on which women don't have to feel threatened for making choices and accepting them.

Abbott, do you know who's going to be leading the class/refereeing the debate? Is it possible for you to have a quiet, private word with them in advance - not necessarily revealing anything - so you can suss out how things might turn out (especially if the same debate was held in previous years)?

Man alive, that is a great idea! The prof & maybe her GA too are 'moderating,' so to speak, but I'm not sure the prof'll know what to anticipate as she's used to teaching 15-student classes at a junior college and there are well over 50 people in this class (which of course means only the loudest will be heard). I'll ask her about it a week or so before. Thanks for the suggestion.

On one hand a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body must be paramount and on the other hand there's the consideration that a potential human life is at stake. I'm pro-choice because a complete, independant human being's choices should always come first IMO. But sometimes the last remnant of my Catholic guilt gives me the odd pang about having this stance.

Oh man, I totally understand Stone Monkey.

Thanks for all the thoughtful & responsive posts, everyone!

And just to clarify, when the subject comes up in a class, I'm not generally arguing like WHY it should be possible to, you know, use a law & a right granted over thirty years ago, but that people should try and have a little kindness and empathy 1. when arguing and 2. toward fellow humans, no matter how much you dislike their private choices. I sometimes point out if contraception was more easily available and understood, that would reduce the number of abortions needed. But trying to change anyone's mind? This and gun control, probably never going to happen.

Is there any meme like the gay meme that suggests that the people who are most vocally homophobic (like say certain GOP congresspeople) are the mostly likely to turn out to be indulging in the behavior? I have certainly heard of "I had an abortion and I regret it and therefore I shouldn't have been allowed to have an abortion and neither should anyone else" people, but is considered a thing? What percentage of anti-abortion types (male and female?) have had an abortion (or convinced someone they knocked up to get an abortion, or other variations)?

I did when I was 25 or 26 and have no problem saying it. For me it wasn't a difficult decision. It was a complete accident (thanks antibiotics) and involved a person where a prolonged commitment was not going to happen. I had no desire to be a single mom.

Abbott, I think that sucks that you feel others would judge you negatively for that. I can't imagine that happening here but if it did I'd probably punch them. I've always been very militant pro-choice, regularly giving money to TARAL and once helped form a physical barricade against a bunch of protesters and priests trying to shut down a clinic during a Republican National Convention.

My experience of the termination was rather sedate. In my OB/GYNs office so no nasty protesters. I held a teletubby doll and they gave me apple juice afterwards.

What percentage of anti-abortion types (male and female?) have had an abortion (or convinced someone they knocked up to get an abortion, or other variations)?

I assume on principle that all men who are vociferously anti-abortion have fathered one, though perhaps not always to their knowledge.

Most people I know are pro-choice and I suspect many wouldn't hesitate to have an abortion, but if they have had one, I haven't heard about it. Maybe it's something you feel more comfortable telling your female friends than your male friends, but the silence probably speaks to the larger stigmatization as well, since odds are that several women I know have had them.

When a high school friend told me a couple of years ago that his girlfriend had gotten an abortion, after an accidental pregnancy, I was sort of shocked -- I mean, it's what I would've done in their situation, too, but it was the first (and still only) time that anyone had confessed it to me.

I have been in a close adult relationship with a woman and we decided to abort; it certainly grounded my thinking on the subject pretty fast. It was a very unpleasant experience (more for her than for me, of course) and it put a crimp in our sex life for several months while her body re-calibrated. It did not leave any enduring scars on her physically or on our relationship emotionally. To the best of my knowledge, excepting the serious sadness at allowing the pregnancy to happen (medication screw up), neither of us have any regrets about the way we handled it.

I'm of the opinion that the incident rate of healthy, undamaged women (and couples) that have chosen abortion is much higher than we're led to believe; one of the great enduring victories of anti-choice polemicists is to render this an impossible topic to discuss openly. I applaud Abbott for broaching the subject.

When I was a counselor at a local abortion clinic, we would regularly have pro-lifers come in for an abortion and say things like:

"my abortion is different because of the circumstances"

"i am not like the other girls in the waiting room"

It would really piss me off.

What were the circumstances that made them think their abortions were different?

What percentage of anti-abortion types (male and female?) have had an abortion

I spoke at a rally once sponsored by the Young Conservatives of Texas and NOW (guess which side I represented.) The YCT speaker went on before me. She was a woman in her 40s who had abortions in her youth and now used her regret as a launching pad for taking away the option for everyone. As a twenty-something student that was a hard act to follow. I believe I said that I was born the year of Roe V Wade and if my mother had been able to have aborted me, I would have been happy she had the choice. (an odd thing to say, I know. I do believe it but I think it takes a lot more explanation than you can give in a five minute speech. like I said that ringer was hard to follow)

impossible to argue with crazy person

What were their circumstances?

that isn't the point.

the point was that they felt like their need/want to terminate their pregnancy was somehow acceptable and nobody else's was. that is how they could do it and stay pro-choice.

like THEIR abortion is fine but mine is not.

i am sure their circumstances were along the lines of anyone else's situation - not ready, no money, father is a loser, wanting to finish school, etc.

No, I agree. I was just curious what made them think that they were so different.

Obv. other women are using abortion as contraception.

jaymc they think they are different because jesus told them so.

Ha!

I went to PP recently to interview for a volunteer position and had to go past the mostly old mostly male protesters. It made me so mad.

-- ENBB, Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:11 AM (Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:11 AM) Bookmark Link

Obviously, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. It makes me so mad--don't these people understand a lot of people go to PP because it's a financially viable place to receive women's healthcare (including PRENATAL CARE)? When I was on my way to work today I saw one of the protesters talking to a young woman...I just hope she wasn't directing her to one of those crock of shit "pregnancy crisis centers."

That said, I think it's perfectly okay to be opposed to abortion, I just REALLY think people should be able to make that choice for themselves.

And Abbott--I totally feel for you. After growing up in a small southern town I shy away from any debate on abortion.

Also, Rock, I think it's so awesome that you would support your daughter through such a difficult decision--a lot of parents wouldn't and she is so lucky to have you.

I have certainly heard of "I had an abortion and I regret it and therefore I shouldn't have been allowed to have an abortion and neither should anyone else" people, but is considered a thing?

the ny times magazine had this as a cover story earlier this year, and it made me really angry. i don't want to deny anyone their feelings, and of course there are serious emotions involved where termination is concerned, but the idea of widespread postabortion syndrome has been drummed up by those with a hardline religious agenda and packaged as a "movement" as another way to attack choice.

see also spurious statistics on the "dangers" of abortion which attempt to somehow circumvent the fact that it's safer than live birth.

You know, I don't believe in a "postabortion syndrome," but like any debate on anything this volatile to discuss, there's pretty big propaganda on both sides. Like lots of people I talked to (who were for it but hadn't had one) or pro-abortion support-type or info books I read suggested it lead to no problems at all. And it may or may not be related (that and Bush just got re-elected), but I kicked at that time into a HUGE EPIC crushing depressive phase that lasted almost eight months. And a factor was that I was definitely denying I had those feelings because "I'm really not supposed to...I have no moral qualms with this." Which I didn't; it was definitely the right choice for me & my boyfriend (except how hard it was to round up enough money, even then a temporary problem).

I think it would be both sensible and obvious to say, "You might feel bad or sad for whatever reason, not because you made a bad choice, but it can just happen. Get therapy if you need it, get hugs. It's okay to feel depressed afterward."

ie I wish someone would've told me that or some book would've included that statement, or one like it

I am still a little weirded out by learning that someone I used to know went out of town for her SECOND abortion (both conceptions with her LTR so not, like, some random guy) and consoled herself by splurging on a Coach handbag. I mean...I dunno. I think she is/was smarter and more aware than that sounds, but it sure looked...bad. Sad.

Abbott, you are right and right again, just for the record.

i'm a little confused here... is it the having 2 abortions thing that's bothering you or that she bought herself an expensive purse and you think that's odd?

i mean, i have an old friend who's had 2 over roughly a ten yr period, both due to b.c. failure (one from antibiotics, and one from an improperly used ring) and not from wantonness.

Mostly that it was so boring an accessory. No srsly, I dunno! I thought the expensive status purchase was a weird way to deal with her...loss, grief...something? I mean, I am all for choice obv but I like to think it's a little more serious a decision than, like, getting stood up for a date so you get your hair colored to improve self-image.

That's kind of hilarious. Actually I think it's hilarious that people spend so much on Coach bags, the abortion really isn't a factor.

It pisses me off just as much that people "don't believe" in "postabortion syndrome" as much as people who try to make a political issue out of it.

Abortion is not a decision to take lightly. It is a huge decision and a huge responsibility, and it diminishes the women who do have aftereffects to say that it isn't. It is different for every woman. Some women go out and buy expensive handbags, I had a complete psychological breakdown. (However, this was as much to do with the abusive partner that fathered the pregnancy, and my ongoing health problems caused by this.) Your mileage WILL vary.

However, LOTS of things are huge decisions and huge responsilities - the decision to have sex in the first place, the decision to get married, the decision to go to college and take on massive debt, the decision to buy a house, all these things are life-changing decisions, but no one is trying to ban them on moral terms. The decision to HAVE a child is just as huge a one, that changes people permanently far more than an abortion does.

Saying it's a nothing is as insulting and demeaning as people who say it's such a huge overwhelming thing that should be banned.

...and it's easy for me to say, as I'm not in the situation, but my reaction to anyone in a clinic who says "oh, but I'm not like those other girls in the waiting room" would be to say "oh yeah? Well, how about you come out and meet one of them!" and face to face, it's a lot harder not to realise that they have equally difficult choices.

But then again, I have never had a community, or a standing to maintain in any community so it's not a big deal to me.

Well, a lot of "illness" scenarios are helped by feeling that you're not the only one.

This one is very different. I don't have a problem if they feel they're "not like the other people" if it's not a 'look down' on them!

It's hard to look down on people when you're in their metaphorical "gutter". It's easy to demonise an "other" when you don't have to look them in the face and hear their story, and realise it's not so different to yours.

Maybe some of the psychological feelings that people experience are due to shame and religious guilt, and that would be helped by more openness. But I also want to say that it's *natural* to feel ... well, *bad* after you've been through that kind of experience. You're allowed to feel down.

I find this odd: That a paragraph that starts with

You know, I don't believe in a "postabortion syndrome,"

can end with Get therapy if you need it, get hugs. It's okay to feel depressed afterward."

like a "syndrome" has to be a pre-defined, recognised definition.

(still, it looks much worse taken out of context)

I couldn't agree with you more about the allowed to feel down. I have seen this and the inability to cope with it. It's amazing what people will blame rather than try to accept what they've done (that's really clumsy and sounds blaming but it's not meant to!).

I don't believe in a "postabortion syndrome,"

This angers me a little. Even when the child is unwanted, you are still ending a life. Some people will have a hard time dealing with that, even when they know that abortion is the only/best option. I know a few people who had an abortion. One hopped on her boyfriend's scooter and went for dinner as if nothing happened. (This pissed me my mom off to no end. But I think partially because she was never able to have more kids after me.) Other friends grieved a lot. It all depends on the person.

Also, who are we to say what constitutes the right reaction? For some it will be splashing on a Coach bag, others will gorge on sugars.

I don't have much to add, but Abbot, check out this on facilitating meetings, may be of some use to your professor. I find these methods very constructive for discussing things and empowering for weaker voices in a group.

the hand signals are very useful [PDF Link]

You utter hippie!

"Technical Point"

Ooh, yes please, no sugar!

i've just realised how terrible "Roe" was as a name in this thing.

Roe is not a real name Ken. Its the US "anonymous woman" pseudonym.

John Doe
Jane Roe.

Personally, I think the argument for pro-choice can be boiled down to: Women can die during childbirth - and still do, regularly, even under the most advanced of medical care. It is absolutely imperative that a woman (or indeed anyone) be given the choice about whether to go through a procedure that could kill them.

That may be oversimplifying the issue but...

I know, but it's unfortunate isn't it?

what will happen if Wade decides to vs another anonymous woman?

Yes, but you are dealing with people who don't want to innoculate girls against thoroughly preventable forms of cancer because, basically, IF YOU HAVE SEX, YOU DESERVE TO DIE.

x-post

Let's all calm down and stop with the jokes shall we? </being a patronising prick>

what's this about cancer?

A vaccine has been recently developed for Human Pappiloma Virus, the most common cause of cervical cancer. this vaccine is most effective when given to girls before they become sexually active (HPV is sexually transmitted). There are a lot of loonies out there who think that giving girls a vaccination against STDs will encourage them to become sexually active.

argh i didn't even know you can get sex cancer. i'm never having sex again.

(but yes, that's stupid, and also what's wrong with girls being sexually active?)

Ken, while certain strains of HPV can cause cervical cancer in women, the same strains do nothing to men. And yeah, I pretty much hate those people and think the vaccine should be a routine part of girls' vacinations.

They're all for sex aren't they? But only if the right people are having it i.e. married Christian folks who are going to have good Christian babies...and aren't enjoying it.

This angers me a little. Even when the child is unwanted, you are still ending a life.

I think you are making an assumption here that can spark an entirely different debate. Personally I don't believe life starts at conception. I only consider it "ending a life" if the fetus could actually live on it's own outside of the womb.

You're not a person until you're in my phone book.

Why should it be that the myth that abortion is an easy choice is proported by both sides of the debate?

This angers me a little. Even when the child is unwanted, you are still ending a life.

I think you are making an assumption here that can spark an entirely different debate. Personally I don't believe life starts at conception. I only consider it "ending a life" if the fetus could actually live on it's own outside of the womb.

-- Ms Misery, Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:56 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

man, a year and a half ago I would have laughed at the idea that life begins at conception but I just CANT believe otherwise now.

(big xpost) I don't think the opposition to the vaccine is really because it would encourage teenage girls to have sex - it doesn't prevent pregnancy, HIV, or all the other STDs, which are more powerful immediate risks than HPV and cervical cancer. I think it's because giving the vaccine to all girls would imply a distrust of the opponents' families - that their good Christian daughters might have sex behind their backs, or that their moral teachings aren't good enough, or something like that.

why is that?

The Roe v. Wade thing above reminds me of this really questionable blurb in Canada's MacLeans magazine that stuck with me for some time. It was like three days after the Katrina thing, and the caption was saying something like "Looks like Washington is rehashing Roe vs. Wade this week. Interestingly, the same debate is going on in many New Orleans households."

man, a year and a half ago I would have laughed at the idea that life begins at conception but I just CANT believe otherwise now.

Well the power of choice is that we all have the ability to believe what we wish. I'm sure giving birth is something that could change this viewpoint but don't believe it would necessarily do so for everyone. Nor do I think the fact that I chose to terminate my pregnancy rather than carry it to term invalidates my view. (And no, this view on the start of life is not a way to make myself feel better about my abortion. I held the same view before I became pregnant, while I was pregnant and after the termination.)

I've had 2: one in the US and one in the Netherlands. Makes for an interesting cultural comparison. It was when I was with a horrible abusive guy and I'm so glad I didn't spawn with him. The choice was easy for me, not to say the abortions were easy. I wasn't ready to have kids. Now I have the kids I chose.

i dont like posting in this kind of thread cuz it makes me feel like kenan, weird dudes all up in ladybusiness, but i just wanna say that it's ok to acknowledge that abortions are hell of serious! pregnancy produces a lot of profound physiological changes, and going from a state in which you are hosting this little nigga inside you to suddenly not having anything down there, it's going to create a sense of loss. i wasn't aware that this is a pro-life talking point now and obv it's not a reason to ban abortin', but you're not doing anyone any favors by downplaying the severity of its impact!

the thing is, i don't think that people are downplaying it. i've never read anything by planned parenthood or other clinics that ignores the emotional and hormonal effects of abortion. counselling is usually encouraged. the problem is that post-abortion syndrome has been created as a political term. google it. you're not gonna find thing saying that it's ok to feel grief after a serious procedure. you're going to find false statistics about emotional and physical damage and testimony from women saying that every day they're haunted by their murdered babies.

Lauren otm.

I just did as you suggested and googled it. Man oh man. The first result makes sure to point out that THE GUILT CAN LEAD TO SUICIDE.

IT'S LIKE POST TRAUMATIC STRESS THAT YOU GET FROM GOING TO WAR

hosting this little nigga inside you

This made me laugh.

I really don't think that this is necesarily ladybusiness, and I think that the discussion re: abortion suffers from the misconception that it is purely a woman's choice. We menfolk need to have opinions, if not some say, in the abortion discussion b/c we're involved in it!

I understand that a man may opt for the "Well, what are you goin to do?" option, but having that as the default or only reaction is intellctually and morally lazy. There are real consequences to having an abortion, from ending the possibility of a life to post-procedure psychological, physical, emotional and societal effects, and a man - any man - who is involved in a sexual relationship with a woman needs to develop at least some calculus for dealing with what will go on if an abortion is what happens. This is b/c, as effective as contraception is, it is not 100%. So, as an abortion is a potential outcome of having sex, you need to be prepared to deal with it.

What that preparation leads to really depends upon your own circumstances - do you want to have an equal say in the decision? Or do you want to leave it up to the woman? Etc., etc., etc.

Lazy people who don't pay attention or at least attempt to understand what the possible outcomes of their actions are bother me.

Legal issues aside, aren't men "involved" in abortion decisions only to the extent that women want them involved?

I think you are making an assumption here that can spark an entirely different debate. Personally I don't believe life starts at conception. I only consider it "ending a life" if the fetus could actually live on it's own outside of the womb.

Ah, you KNOW what I mean. The potential of a life then? Would that sound better? Now I have always been pro-abortion, but when someone told me how the operation went - a day after she had it - I cried. I never would have met the child, but I suddenly realized that this was a life that would never be. I respect the woman's choice, but I still cried (probably more so because I was already pregnant with my second child).

I know what you mean, Sam, but I couldn't help think that way when she talked about it. :-(

does it bother you when someone uses the pill or a condom or pulls out that it's a 'life that will never be'?

or that something like a third of pregnancies are miscarried in the first trimester, usually without the woman knowing?

Empathy isn't ridiculous - even when it is. In some sense, a life was lost, and it's just human to feel something in response to that, especially in the circumstance stevie's describing. Same would go for a miscarriage that one was aware of.

Said as a lifelong, diehard choice supporter.

The potential of a life then? Would that sound better?

For me, yes. I understand what you're saying. Do you think your reaction could've been b/c you were already a mother and a mother-to-be? I'm not being patronizing but just wondering how much having children can change a woman's reaction to the effects of abortion (not the ethical choice of it though).

I sometimes think of how old my child would've been had I had it. S/he would be about the same age as my nephew and in the first grade. Weird. Anyway, it's not a thing I feel sadness about but I also don't look down on woman who do feel bad. This is, at it's core, a very personal thing.

FWIW if I were to get pregnant now, abortion would not even be an option. I'm older, in a better life place and even if I would be a single mother I feel I'm much more capable of handling a child. I just wouldn't even consider it at this point in my life.

Absolutely, but my point is that simply lateralling the decision to women as "ladybusiness" is intellectually and morally lazy. Obviously, often, men aren't involved in the decision whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term. But that doesn't mean that discussions re: abortions should strictly be the domain of women. I think its this limit on discussions is a large contributor to ignorance and lack of understanding on the anti-abortion side. Producing a life is something that men cannot comprehend as fully as women can, but its not right to prevent a man who wants to understand what goes into the decision to have/ not have an abortion, and to, in certain circumstances , take part in making that decision as a fully informed, active participant.

Does this make sense? I'm speaking from the standpoint of men who have been told "Oh, its a woman's issue. You really have no say at all" and then are shut out of the discussion. I think that this leads to ignorance, apathy and laziness on the part of men when it comes to abortion.

Sorry, that was directed to Bob's "involved" question.

Gotcha. I've never been told outright that I have no say in the matter, but as a guy, I agree with those who say that guy-opinions are secondary in this debate. Doesn't excuse apathy or ignorance.

Depending upon the situation, I would say that a woman having more of a say than the guy is completely understandable.

My problem is with men in Washington or in pulpits have no knowledge of or nor business in my womb having opinions about what I should do with it.

Obviously, often, men aren't involved in the decision whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term.

Outside of the statistical over-representation of men in all levels of politics, you mean.

xpost

xpost to both.

Its a personal thing, plain and simple. Like the choice to use contraception, the choice of whether or not to have sex, or the choice of whether or not to wear underwear, its really nobody else's business who you don't want involved.

I, for the record, have no opinions about what you should do with your womb.

If you decide to run for political office, you will be forced to have an opinion.

xpost. Which is unfortunate. Fortunately, that and a wide host of other reasons exist for me to NOT run for public office.

I wonder if a shirt with "I have no opinions about what you should do with your womb" would score points at, say, Smith College.

or that something like a third of pregnancies are miscarried in the first trimester, usually without the woman knowing?

-- and what, Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:42 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

last summer this recently-impregnated girl confided in me that she thought she was close to having a miscarriage, and i made fun of her for the next few days and insisted she was imagining it... then on the next monday she miscarried lmbo

hey blam wtf how do u know i havent thought abt any of that shit?? or that i havent already had to deal with it? why is this such a big deal 2 u anyway? a bloo bloo bloo wont somebody stand up for us marginalized males ;_;

Dear Cankles,

Chill the fuck out.

We're having a conversation here. My quoting of your term "ladybusiness" was meant to serve as an example of a pattern of behavior surrounding abortion that I don't agree with. It was meant in no way, shape or form to comment on you, what you have had to deal with, or thought about.

Also, if you think that making three or four short, concise posts on a message board equates with a big deal to me, than you would be wrong. Conversations usually consist of a give and take of ideas, and I have some ideas on this topic.

Also, marginalized males can speak for themselves. I was speaking from the position of DON'T prevent males from taking part in the discussion about abortion as it might lead to an overall worse outcome.

Of course, my wife would probably say that the abortion debate would be settled a whole lot sooner if it was just women at the table. She also thinks that men should be chained up when not working, providing dick service or killing insects on the wall.

Regards,
B.L.A.M.

Also, everyone else, I apologize about the potential derailment of the thread. For the part that I played, I am sorry.

Your wife sounds like a smart lady.

Massive X-post.

dang sorry man i thought u were addressing me :[ you never said my name but i just kinda connected the dots:

but my point is that simply lateralling the decision to women as "ladybusiness" is intellectually and morally lazy

actually idk why i would even take it personally, since "intellectually and morally lazy" is an eerily accurate description of myself

anyway sorry dogg :[

No worries.

Funny. Two men fighting about hurt feelings on an abortion thread.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I find this odd: That a paragraph that starts with

You know, I don't believe in a "postabortion syndrome,"

can end with Get therapy if you need it, get hugs. It's okay to feel depressed afterward."

like a "syndrome" has to be a pre-defined, recognised definition.

(still, it looks much worse taken out of context)

Good point, and a sort of communication 3RR0R I'd like to clear up w/nath, Matt G., any/all. In my understanding of the word (or how I was using it to mean), a "syndrome" IS a condition with a predefined, recognized definition of specific symptoms. I always associate it with specific causality, ie:

HIV---causes---> AIDS, or acquired immune deficiency syndrome
Extra 21st chromosome---causes---> Trisomy 21 (Down's Syndrome)

So that's why I don't believe in a "postabortion syndrome," ie specific, diagnosable, consistent symptoms after every abortion for every person, which I think is what you were saying, nath. Like lauren said upthread, v. wisely, if you google this phrase "you're not gonna find thing saying that it's ok to feel grief after a serious procedure. you're going to find false statistics about emotional and physical damage and testimony from women saying that every day they're haunted by their murdered babies." It's not a medical term or a diagnosis you'll find in the DSM-IV (unlike, for example, post-traumatic stress disorder), it's always a phrase I've heard in conjunction with/describing "your ghost baby will visit you every night and ask why you killed her."

Actually, looking at this more, syndrome is a v. confusing word w/a number of connotative and denotative definitions, which further obscures what "postabortion syndrome" could mean, and if could be a diagnosable condition or not:

In medicine and psychology, the term syndrome refers to the association of several clinically recognizable features, signs (discovered by a physician), symptoms (reported by the patient), phenomena or characteristics which often occur together, so that the presence of one feature alerts the physician to the presence of the others. In recent decades the term has been used outside of medicine to refer to a combination of phenomena seen in association....In technical medical language, a "syndrome" refers only to the set of detectable characteristics. A specific disease, condition, or disorder may or may not be identified as the underlying cause. Confusingly, even once a physical cause has been identified, the word "syndrome" is sometimes kept in the name of the disease. (via wkpdia)

I mean, I had a long-lasting, overwhelming mental & emotional reaction to GW Bush getting re-elected, but that doesn't mean I could be diagnosed with "Post-Bush-Election Syndrome."

blah blah blah

I'm definitely NOT saying it's a nothing...I was trying to say books I read denied what was commonly understood (in the sphere of the debate) as "postabortion syndrome" to shoot down the other side: what the staunchly anti-side claimed would happen to make you scared of having an abortion by saying it will DOOM and destroy you & your life (ie the suicide thing mentioned by kenan). I don't believe it as a proper diagnosis. I do believe it has huge mental emotional consequences, of wildly varying degrees, depending on hundreds of factors surrounding each individual. That is something I firmly believe now and wish someone would have said then, but all the "support" books I read suggested there was no consequence at all, or that they were made up. The truth, of course, is scattered in a million points in between.

I do believe it has huge mental emotional consequences

"it" here meaning "an abortion."

My doctors called it a "termination," which just made me think John Connor was going to come through the door anytime during the pre-exam.

Not everything we might colloquially label a "syndrome" need be experienced in the same way by everyone who finds themselves in a similar situation. This is especially true of psychological states/conditions. Thus, putting aside the question of technical medical accuracy, it's reasonable to call post-partum depression and post-traumetic stress disorder "syndromes" - each is or can be a collection of related symptoms with a common cause.

Given all that, it's likewise reasonable to posit a "post-abortion syndrome". If it describes something experienced by a even a small percentage of women who have abortions, we'd be terribly callous to deny its existence for purely political reasons. Especially if some of the women in question have trouble dealing with their feelings.

That said, it's clearly a term with at least as much political as medical significance.

and the doctor was going to off him? xpost

A life may begin at conception, but Life doesn't.

I mean, I had a long-lasting, overwhelming mental & emotional reaction to GW Bush getting re-elected, but that doesn't mean I could be diagnosed with "Post-Bush-Election Syndrome."

Well, yes, of course you could, especially if it happened to a lot of people and was a useful way of seeing why there was a surge in sick days in the US (or parts of it) in November 2004.

It may or may not be a useful thing -- since it was a temporary phenomenon that manifested in many different ways and just required a bit of rest and/or self-medication to get over for most people, it's probably not a terribly useful way of thinking about it -- but that doesn't mean you couldn't use the phrase if you thought it helped.

The problem with "post-abortion syndrome" is the way it is used politically (especially to suggest that it is bound to happen to anyone who goes through an abortion -- but there seem to be people who have HIV for decades/their whole lives without getting AIDS (though perhaps not many) -- so).

i think the problem with it is when the "identification" of the syndrome serves to assist in magnifying the negative psychological affects of abortion

Yeah, there we go. You make good points Casuistry. Ethan OTm.

you can trust either of them, casuistry's got Homosexual Syndrome and ethan has Darwinism.

My only regret is that I never bured my bone-itis.

OR CURED IT.

oh man I watched that episode like a week ago

postabortion syndrome is now somewhat written into the law of the land, via gonzales vs. carhart:

While we find no reliable data to measure the phenomenon, it seems unexceptionable to conclude some women come to regret their choice to abort the infant life they once created and sustained.

nice standard of proof there justice kennedy.

and the point of getting that kind of language into a precedent-setting decision, obv, is to build on it with further restrictions. it opens up this whole legal avenue to restrict abortion for the sake of the woman, not just the fetus.

i was always terrible at the quantitative section of the abortion

http://www.mikereger.net/ITP/images/woodyorb.jpg

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I am surprised by all the button-pushers on ILx.