How is the rebel flag not a racist symbol?

So basically everyone who flies or supports the Rebel Flag is a racist. i.e. evil.

everyone except retarded people who don't know any better.

no poll no credibility

more intriguing question: did the confederacy have the right to secede from the union (as the colonies had "seceded" from britain) even if it was obviously in order to keep and extend slavery?

I don't think that mattered too terribly much.

hey guys it's 2007, just thought you should know.

Confederate Heroes Day - Dud or "JESUS! Why not just celebrate Usama Bin Laden day?"

I just like to point out the obvious because sometimes people can't even see that :/

Or they go into some 'politiking' to escape the fact.
'no poll no credibility'

http://imagehost.epier.com/99086/git_r_done_flag.jpg

THE SOUTH WILL RISE NEVER

without reading any of that.. supporting the confederate heros who died is another symbol of the flag. It doesn't stop slavery and its implications as also being a symbol.

so yeah, millions of people fly a flag that basically symbolizes 'I hate blacks' (among other things).

Is there a particular response you're trying to provoke?

Or they go into some 'politiking' to escape the fact.
'no poll no credibility'

wtf?

quit trying to escape the controversy

lol

shouldn't this be crossposted to idiot thread repository?

I guess my point is the same as it was in my political debate topic.
Why are so many people idiots??????????????????????? Why do people turn the blind-eye? Why does it keep going on? How can people be so idiotic (seriously)? If we can't figure a way to educate the people better than we are doomed! I'm thinking along the lines of America getting bombed actually. The reckoning has already passed and millions of people missed it. Heck, we havent done a single thing as a whole country to prevent global warming. The only thing we have done is talked about.

Tons of you already accept that fact that we are doomed.

The idiocracy is that a few people can save us. Can educate us. Can at least tell the message to others. That's all I'm doing. I'm telling the cold hard truth without being Jehova's witness.

are you from the south? (serious question)

Curtis, I know you were joking

Yes, it's racist. Next question.

and yes I am from the Dirty South.

Give up the guilt trip, Lorax.

BAN WAGEMANN

http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/9/2/6/6/10466629-10466632-slarge.jpg

That's not Wagemann. That's a negro. I can tell the diff.

my SHOCKING ANSWER (possibly not true and certainly not universal) is that people are stubborn & don't like to be called racist, so when they're raised in a culture that associates the rebel flag with regional honor, they take offense when people accuse them of being racists and turn a blind eye to the flag's actual racist implications, because to admit to them = admitting that you're a racist

just ban all n00bs, pls.

(if you've flown the flag)

xpost

"regional honor" are you kidding me?

you know what I mean

i know that that's the dumbest thing i've read on an already dumb thread.

I'm not defending it, I'm just saying that most people who do this ARE "retarded people who don't know any better."

never mind

http://www.rickrossvideo.com/rickross.gif

retards know no honor.

retarded was his word not mine

complacency is the last thing america needs. Spreading reason is the least you can all do as intelligent people (i think ilxors are smart).

1)you could rely on others to change things for you and talk shit about life

2)you could do nothing and try not to care while hell pursues.

3)you can use your brain to inform the people

4)I only made this topic so that people could at least remember what surrounds us. I didn't mean to bother you.

http://blog.8r4d.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/lorax.jpg

you don't have to defend the word retard to me.

esp. while jordan sargent's here.

mods, pls nuke ilx.

i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart
i think ilxors are smart

hstencil which part of my post were you confused by? When I said "culture" I didn't mean American culture as a whole, you realize

stencil, from my vantage point here in the belly of the beast, Curtis is very otm.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m242/pimpingyourspace/Myspace_Comments/Birthday_Comments/images/happy-birthday-g.gif

Cap'n BorAss, amirite?

aren't there more important things to worry about w/r/t to our country right now? taxpayer money being handed to contractors to do nothing in iraq, complete fraudulence of the justice dept. etc.

OTM and no nabisco? Heresy!

hey guys it's 2007, just thought you should know.

-- hstencil, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:06 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

So basically everyone who flies or supports the Rebel Flag is a racist. i.e. evil.

-- CaptainLorax, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:02 AM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

isn't this like saying BREAKING NEWS: PEOPLE WHO WEAR SWASTIKAS ARE PROBABLY PREJUDICE

so hstencil are you saying there's NO element of regional pride to it? that it's solely about racism?

"Regional pride".

touche.

oh sorry. that was a typo. i meant douche.

vagional pride

the racism is WITHIN the regional pride, but a lot of people who have said regional pride ignore this due to the social paradox of wanting to Honor One's Fathers and also Not Be Racist. cognitive dissonance, etc.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Alberto_Gonzales_-_official_DoJ_photograph.jpg/480px-Alberto_Gonzales_-_official_DoJ_photograph.jpg

vs.

http://k43.pbase.com/v3/90/516390/1/41740345.ConfederateFlag.jpg

hstencil which part of my post were you confused by? When I said "culture" I didn't mean American culture as a whole, you realize

-- Curt1s Stephens, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:33 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

first, fuck you, i'm not confused.

now that we got that out of the way, the southern "culture" (if there indeed could be said to be one, singular -- which i think is a faulty premise to begin with) is not one where people adopt the rebel flag out of some sort of innocent defense of "regional honor," no matter what pleasant plains says. the culture of the south as i know it is not one where it is mainstream to think of the rebel flag as some sort of "nice" symbol, unless maybe it's different for people in south carolina or somewhere where it's still on the statehouse lawn (and even there i doubt it). everywhere else it hasn't been a part of anything in mainstream culture in really about forty years, except the top of a stupid car on a stupid tv show filmed in fucking southern california. nobody in the south -- or elsewhere -- adopts it as an image or a symbol without knowing DAMN WELL what it means. to argue otherwise is really, really condescending and clueless.

assert your need for educating the public to other areas, cptlorax

so hstencil are you saying there's NO element of regional pride to it? that it's solely about racism?

-- Granny Dainger, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:37 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

how about you assholes let me post my argument first before you make it for me?

jeezus.

dude dude I'm not talking about some "singular" southern culture

o when they're raised in a culture that associates the rebel flag with regional honor

I'm not attacking you, I was just worried that you misunderstood my use of the word "culture." I'm sorry. :(

xpost and apparently you did

sorry left out the "s"

i'm guessing the maple syrup tappin' culture of vermont doesn't associate the rebel flag with "regional honor."

Jordan, as someone who is reading this without getting all angsty, I agree we should be solving the immediate. But I have a hunch that sometime between 1512-1513, the war is really going to pick up.

I originally come from India. My father is a well known Veda. He has studied the stars since he inherited the future-telling gift past down from the seers in our family. People from all over the country came for his readings. I am bullshiting you. But at least I'm entertaining if you can't get anything else out of this thread.

Where's that "I bought a racist belt today" thread. It was better than this one.

yeah it's my fault you made a faulty argument!

dixie beef

but that's not your fault, it's my fault for not being specific; I'm talking about "culture" as in one's immediate cultural surroundings, not some vast widespread southern culture that you seem to think I'm talking about

xpost sorry

I'm really sorry h, I didn't mean to sound all offensive on this thread :(

o when they're raised in a culture that associates the rebel flag with regional honor
-- hstencil, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:44 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

if you're ignoring the prevalence of ^ you're crazy

FWIW C I thought you made perfect sense and Stence is being defensive.

tho i'm not exactly sure what you're saying

tell me more about the "immediate cultural surroundings" that would lead one to think waving a rebel flag is a good idea.

i mean, aside from going to ole miss like 50 years ago.

is h misinterpreting curtis' argument as his belief?

lol, so now you're saying you're trying to talk about the rebel flag by REMOVING it from the context of southern culture? that makes a lot of sense. i'm sure it's flown a lot in hawaii.

xpost - jordan, could you let me speak for myself? i'm not.

that's why i was asking

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthetl/south/eleven.html

why don't you ask ME specifically then? what the fuck is it with whatever this ilx2 thing is now where people just ask random questions to the ether (or the thread) instead of the people they want the answer from?

you all know what the flag means. congratulations. now shutup. you could have made this thread into something interesting but you turned it into faggotry. I gave a simple conversation topic... it went downhill.

(I went to high school outside of Chicago. There were these white brothers...big corn-fed boys, who wore t-shirts with the sleeves ripped off and Wrangler jeans with cowboy boots. They drove around in a pickup truck that flew a huge-ass rebel flag. The black kids would curse them as they drove by and say how they were gonna beat their asses. But to my constant amazement they never did! This was turned into a major motion picture starring Edward Norton)

hstencil are you misinterpreting curtis' argument as his belief?

xpost - jordan, could you let me speak for myself? i'm not.

-- hstencil, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:49 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

*about my use of the word faggotry and retards. I'm not perfect.

thanks.

dude you seriously need some anger management

you all know what the flag means. congratulations. now shutup. you could have made this thread into something interesting but you turned it into faggotry. I gave a simple conversation topic... it went downhill.

-- CaptainLorax, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:51 AM (43 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

OK LOL @ THE IDEA OF THE DISPLAY OF THE CONFEDERATE FLAG BEING A SIMPLE CONVERSATION TOPIC

you idiot

all these lesbians on the covers of rock mags have you confused, jordan.

you all know what the flag means. congratulations. now shutup. you could have made this thread into something interesting but you turned it into faggotry. I gave a simple conversation topic... it went downhill.

-- CaptainLorax, Thursday, 6 September 2007 14:51 (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

like dis: Sorting Through Nu Folk Rock and Nu Folk

How is Beth Ditto not a racist symbol?

OK LOL @ THE IDEA OF THE DISPLAY OF THE CONFEDERATE FLAG BEING A SIMPLE CONVERSATION TOPIC

-- Jordan Sargent

OTM w/o nabisco. Heresy!

it would have been a simple conversation topic if most of you had more maturity.

also re: illinois rebel flags, check klan membership levels in the midwest during the movement's zenith.

xpost - the great white whale

I'm talking about rural areas (the places where I see rebel-flags-on-lawn most often), so immediate cultural surroundings = family, friends, people you were raised with/by.

...a simple conversation topic if most of you had more maturity.

Welcome to ILE, son.

the rural south is a vacuum, eh?

cptlorax please present us w/ how this thread would have gone in the perfect captainlorax world. you can even make up usernames and everything.

would it have involve a .gif of rick ross?

involved.

Lorax, you should go find a more mature board.

Hell, welcome to the fucking Internet.

the rural south is a vacuum, eh?

Some parts of it, yeah! And especially above a certain age, hell yeah!

The vagina sand be flyin' today.

It obviously is connected to the confederacy which happened to fight for the right to have slaves.

So basically everyone who flies or supports the Rebel Flag is a racist. i.e. evil.

Why is it that you automatically equate slavery with racism?

uh oh

oh boy, i ain't gonna unpack that one.

easy peezy is the way to go. If you didnt find anything I have said interesting (or even funny at times) than I apologize that you read something that wasted your internet time. If you couldn't read my opinions without keeping a cool head, than I pity you. You could have just ignored me.

for the record i pretty much agree with this lorax feller. nobody adopts the flag in "the modern south" without knowing what it stands for.

can we also keep in mind that cptlorax started the thread asking people to tell him about american politics

For starters, this thread would have been better if there wasn't any offensive outbursts and everyone remained level-headed.

thanks hstencil

Why is it that you automatically equate slavery with racism?

Worst troll this week.

For starters, this thread would have been better if there wasn't any offensive outbursts and everyone remained level-headed.

ILX INFOZ ALERT: You don't actually own the content of the threads you start.

if you don't realize that w/in many age groups and communities the meaning of the confederate flag has changed from "i hate black people" to "i'm proud of being from the south" you need the proverbial wake-up call.

nobody adopts the flag in "the modern south" without knowing what it stands for.

I actually agree with this, it's just that a lot of the people who "turn a blind eye to the flag's actual racist implications," from Curtis' post above, can get really close to convincing themselves, and don't let the facade crack for an instant.

if you don't realize that w/in many age groups and communities the meaning of the confederate flag has not changed from "i'm proud of being from the south" to "I hate niggers" you need the proverbial wake-up call.

i know, i just didn't know the content of the people in this forum at this particular time of day would be so argumentative.

in contrary to what Jordan just said....

'if you don't realize that w/in many age groups and communities the meaning of the confederate flag has changed from "i hate black people" to "i'm proud of being from the south" you need the proverbial wake-up call.'

....is that the flag is and always will be a symbol of racism (by the defintion of SYMBOL). The thread could have ended there. Obviously I know that isn't the reason why people fly the flag today. But I also know tons of racists and people who are racists in denial.

Just saying. The ancient Romans had slaves, and they were often not of a different race. Conquered enemy nations have throughout history been the main source of slaves.

(I'm against both slavery and racism, and merely wanted to point out the gaping hole in Lorax' logic. I know that slaves in the New World came from Africa, and after 1819 or whenever they stopped importing them, came from descendents of those Africans, but "the Confederacy which happened to fight for the right to have slaves" does he mention Black slaves.)

my logic all relies on the defintion of symbol.

but in his line"the Confederacy which happened to fight for the right to have slaves" he does not mention Black slaves specifically.

I can't believe these guys are fucking up yr thredd with all their fucking opinions and shit, Lorax.

assuming someone displaying a conf. flag is a racist is just as faulty as assuming they aren't

I tend to agree with libcrypt, hstencil, etc: It's a symbol of right-wing belligerence and white people entitlement. It may not be a racist symbol, but I'm willing to bet that anyone who cares about the flag is also fairly racist.

ban naus, not for being racist, but for being dumb.

symbols can have different meanings to different people and their meanings can change

in contrary to what Jordan just said....

'if you don't realize that w/in many age groups and communities the meaning of the confederate flag has changed from "i hate black people" to "i'm proud of being from the south" you need the proverbial wake-up call.'

....is that the flag is and always will be a symbol of racism (by the defintion of SYMBOL). The thread could have ended there.

so basically you wanted 0 responses to this thread? or just everyone agreeing w/ your statement as thread title.

W4LTER. its only the angsty opinions that I call faggotry.

if you don't realize that you aren't privy to the inner machinations of every person in the American South, you're... oh, hi there. (that being said, I would find it hard to believe that someone was flying it solely for regional pride reasons. Then again, I find it hard to believe that that same asshole in the Escalade takes up 2 parking spots at work every damn day, but she does)

i think curtis and i are in accord re: this because we are both basically the same age and both from the "south" and know people who "display" the conf. flag and aren't racist.

lets say that the cross was orginally a symbol for ... I dunno.... baseball mitts. if there is a cross, it is still a symbol for baseball mitts even if people use it to symbolize christ or whatever nowadays.

I tend to agree with libcrypt, hstencil, etc: It's a symbol of right-wing belligerence

I agree with this! This goes along with what I'm saying!

fyi I never said the flag was NOT a racist symbol, I was addressing Lorax's belief that everyone who flies the flag must be doing it for racist reasons (except for retarded people who don't know any better, who happen to be a good number of the people flying the flag)

W4LTER. its only the angsty opinions that I call faggotry.

Waht. So racism is bad, but homophobia good?

PLEASE GUYS JUST STOP

lawl

YOU ALL DEFINE "RACISM" DIFFERENTLY AND YOURE NEVER GOING TO AGREE UNTIL YOU START TALKING ABOUT THAT

also I don't know anyone personally who flies the flag. Chances are I wouldn't be very good friends with that person.

thanks hstencil

-- CaptainLorax, Wednesday, September 5, 2007 10:04 PM (12 minutes ago)

symbols can have different meanings to different people and their meanings can change

-- Curt1s Stephens, Thursday, September 6, 2007 5:14 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

while that is true, there is no convincing evidence whatsoever that the basic symbolism of the rebel flag has changed. a lot of the rhetoric around the flag has changed (ie. nobody's dumb enough to pull some george wallace moves these days - hence my "hey guys it's 2007" post upthread), but the idea behind the flag -- that a region of the united states should secede in order to preserve the "peculiar institution" of slavery -- has not changed, and will not change, and to argue otherwise is really quite stupid.

ALSO I HEARD CUTRIS HAS A CONFEDERATE FLAG BACKGROUND ON HIS COMPUTER

people on a messageboard conducting different arguments while thinking that they are all arguing about the same thing?

you don't say

I agree. xxpost

Also, CaptianLorax, how is it that you can use racist=evil, then go and use the word "faggotry"?

Again, I'm not a racist! I just feel that Lorax has his head up his ass on a few issues that he takes as givens while trying to present his argument.

Again, I'm not a racist! I just feel that Lorax has his head up his ass on a few issues that he takes as givens while trying to present his argument.

O RLY?

I'm sorry for everything I said on this thread, I feel like a dick now. I'm out.

Which he should rightfully be called out on. xpost

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/475/0001px5.jpg

NAUS U KINDA DUMB

Faggot

"All my friends say it, so it's OK, right?"

im a hypocrite when I condemn goodness and use the words faggotry and retarded. But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

Where is momus to save us all.

that's vagional pride talking

I wish there was a flag that told people you were from the South and hated douchebags.

http://www.askoyvanners.net/images/TheSouthWillRiseAgain.jpg But I swear, I do not hate or dislike blacks and Yankees.

condemn was definitely not the right word

skulls with horns are cool.

commend.....

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

http://www.pernel.com/taxco-greetings99.jpg

hahaha, good night Gracie.

ILX WILL RISE AGAIN

But I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

I dislike them only if they're both gay AND retarded

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/congress/members/photos/228/C000858.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/v3/90/78990/1/46983343.BoysversionofRebelFlagundies.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/v3/90/78990/1/46983343.BoysversionofRebelFlagundies.jpg

when has ilx become 4chan?

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6016/2006metcloudgo3.jpg

It hasn't. This is an admission of loss.

I only hate or dislike one of them. you pick.

We get to wail on you 'cause you trolled so horribly amateurishly, dude.

This is a group loss, duhh
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/9835/pra0618abu3.jpg

at least I have cool pictures
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/134/untitled3sc9.jpg

You're really bored, aren't you?

http://digital-photography-school.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/movement-blur-1.jpg

Lorax, your first post in this thread is a valid one. But your second post presumes that everybody who flies a rebel flag is a racist. In order to demonstrate that, you would have to prove that everybody who embraces the flag is pro-slavery and that everybody who is pro-slavery is in fact a racist. You neglected to do so, and instead made a value judgment. You also argued that the flag itself connotes racism. That's what I attacked you for. The whole "it goes without saying" thing is fine in most cases, but when it comprises a large part of your argument, why attempt to make the argument in the first place?

But to answer your question, how is it not racist? There's the whole "Southern pride" argument, that despite the slavery issue and almost a sesquicentennial since the Civil War, the American South today has its own distinct culture where the contributions of all who have lived there (Blacks included) made it what it is today. Many people from all over the world are proud of their culture, whether on a national or regional level, in spite of whatever atrocities their people may have committed decades or even centuries ago.

For others, displaying the flag might be a reaction against what residents of the South may see as Northern derision, and for these inhabitants of a mainly rural, economically depressed (in relation to the rest of the country) region the flag can be a sort of mass esteem-booster, a sort of middle finger pointed in jest (or not) at those up north. Slavery in America is dead and southerners have gotten over it, especially seeing as nobody alive today lived in the antebellum South.

I could go further and defend the whole "South will rise again" thing as code for the South's influence over mainstream American culture, with Southern institutions such as the blues, rock and roll, Southern hip-hop, Wal-Mart, Chik-Fil-A, NASCAR, etc. being more popular than ever; or even more base, as a testament to their own fighting spirit: telling the rest of the country that "even though we lost the war, we put forth a valiant effort and killed a bunch of your guys and could do it again if need be."

While I don't buy it myself, I'm sure there are people who hold those beliefs. I also think they're in the minority, and that most people with rebel flags are indeed racist to varying degrees. Some probably yearn for the days of Jim Crow and segregation, and others still might actually fantasize about being wealthy plantation owners and having slaves. Yes, it's abhorrent, but for many these ideas are something they grew up believing in, and it takes quite a bit of work and radical thinking to completely abandon the beliefs one has held since before they could even remember, no matter how erroneous those beliefs may be.

But your question, Lorax, was how the flag is not racist, to which you wanted a rationale. Some gave it and you got on your high-horse and dismissed it, which is an example of lousy, trollish behavior at its worst. If you merely wanted to give your opinion and not elicit a response, you should not have posted on a message board, a venue which by its very nature invites a variety of different opinions on a certain matter.

That post reminds me of one of my "lengthy, serious reply to an already hopelessly derailed thread" posts.

Really? I was hoping for a second that the ILX graveyard shift could help get things back in order.

so just for the record, naus: slavery in the abstract is not racist, but the specific form of chattel slavery (i.e., if your parents are slaves, so are you, and so on forever) that the confederacy went to war to defend was extremely racist.

I swear, I do not hate or dislike gays and mentally challenged people.

Wot a sweetheart u r

newsflash: the civil war wasn't only about slavery AT ALL (lincoln was actually kind of agnostic on the issue) but slavery just happened to be the engine of the southern US economy and "way of life"; to protect the latter one also had to protect the former (or be imaginative and courageous in a way that jefferson davis and his ilk couldn't summon)

which is not so incredibly different from the present economic exploitation of south america, africa, india, taiwan, etc. by northern countries like the US and the UK - our way of life is predicated on the suffering of others, through the generations. read the recent guardian article on how your H&M clothes get made. perhaps some future war will put that in perspective, and for the rest of history when people talk about that war they'll say it was about wage slavery, and the US flag will represent only that - and they'll be kind of right

the stars and bars are beyond redemption; the stars and stripes may be one day, too

lincoln freed the slaves (who resided in states that had seceded from his authority!) in order to gut the south of its workforce, thereby crippling its ability to make war

q: how would some future leader "free" the wage slaves of mexico, uruguay, china and bangladesh?

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7316/untitled1dg2.jpg

http://www.victorypigs.com/balls.jpg

http://www.brillianttv.co.uk/timmymallett/images/spex018.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/LilJonPutYoHoodUp.jpg

tell me more about the "immediate cultural surroundings" that would lead one to think waving a rebel flag is a good idea.

i mean, aside from going to ole miss like 50 15 years ago.

lincoln wasn't agnostic about slavery at all, he was opposed to it all his life. (he was agnostic about racial equality, but that's a different story.)

tracer is right about the obv tactical reason for the emancipation, but there's others just as strong - the need to prevent europe from recognizing the confederacy (and initiating trade etc) by taking a strong stance against slavery, lincoln's desire to push the northern border states toward emancipation (it's true that the EP didn't free anyone in the north, but by the end of the war slavery was virtually dead in the north because of the negative feelings/association with the rebels caused in large part by the lincoln admin's decision to make slavery THE issue), and of course the countless voices in the union demanding an official repudiation of slavery. if lincoln had been as indifferent as leftists like howard zinn richard hofstadter et al think then he would've been andrew johnson and the north would've LOST the war.

yeah agnostic not the right word - i meant that if ending slavery hadn't been a powerful means to an end (i.e. not losing the south's blockbuster crop trade) lincoln likely wouldn't have done it - this is the conventional wisdom i've always heard, at least

that's interesting about international opinion; the UK in particular was about thisclose to fighting for the confederacy, right?

Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War?
Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter--
Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery.
Apu: Slavery it is, sir.

conventional wisdom is i think a bit over-cynical on this point: considering that ending slavery was seen by everyone in 1861 (including abolitionists, who largely favored allowing secession) as absolutely impossible short of destroying the country, i think it's fair to credit lincoln for remarkable effectiveness in an extremely difficult situation.

"the civil war was about economics" = "the iraq war was about oil." an element of truth but way too reductive.

J.D. otm

except that I think it's an overstatement that everyone thought ending slavery was impossible.

In order to get poor whites to fight for the South, issues like States Rights had to be front and center in the propaganda, but make no mistake- for the those in power it was very much about continuing slavery.

yeah, "state's rights"=emptiest political concept ever. it's always used to mask the real political goal.

uhm, no.

no really, it is.

the delineation of powers between the federal and state governments was a huge issue with the founders and has been pertinent to all kinds of issues that have nothing to do with the south or slavery.

I mean, I believe that there are people who really support the idea of states' rights, but when politicians invoke it, it's strategic.

I'm talking about the way it's deployed in political rhetoric.

the thing is, the occupation of Iraq actually IS all about oil

there's no question that the South used/abused/exploited the legal precepts and issues of "state's rights" for its own racist agenda, but there's all kinds of contemporary issues where it comes into play - gay marriage, medical marijuana, the death penalty, assisted suicide, etc.

yeah, but when it comes into play on those issues, it's really about ideology relating to THOSE ISSUES, not "state's rights" which no one actually cares about.

otm

gotcha - I think I was just thrown by your choice of words

"states' rights" is kind of a strange phrase anyway, since governments by definition don't have rights, people do. "state prerogative" would be a better way of putting it but it's not as catchy.

I always got the impression that "state's rights" was shorthand for "let all the fags move to Massachusetts and get out of our God-fearing state."

Or similar.

Let all the skinheads operate with impunity from Idaho etc.

let all the fags get married
let all the cancer patients smoke weed
let all the terminal patients kill themselves
etc etc

... this default idea that the concept of state's rights is only deployed in the service of rightwing causes is wrong.

Do left-leaning politicians invoke states rights though Shakey?

I guess on the gay-marriage thing they have, but hopefully the idea is to have important things like that go national. It seems to me that states rights is a good way to end up with separate countries if taken too far.

I would have to research some of the political rhetoric surrounding medical marijuana/gay marriage - a lot of that stuff has come up from grassroots efforts and court battles though, so I'm not really aware of what politicians themselves may have said re: those issues

certainly legally the courts have invoked it

(like with gay marriage - constitution is silent, ergo it is the states' right to legislate it)

the thing is, the occupation of Iraq actually IS all about oil
- tracerhand

as for the thread topic itself, I'll just say that any white person flying the stars n bars makes me deeply suspicious, and any black person waving it around makes me confused.

any white person displaying the stars and bars either has no respect for black people or no respect for history

"States' rights" is consonant with traditional Republican/conservative rhetoric: old-school American conservative theory de-emphasizes federal power in favor of local governance and community standards.

Democratic/liberal cant empowers the federal government, framing issues in terms of "human rights" - that which should be true for everybody simply because it is manifestly right & just.

So while Democrats may invoke "states' rights" to advance this or that cause, they don't have any abiding attachment to the issue itself. Traditional Republicans do. States rights isn't just a tool for American conservatives - it's a unifying principle.

None of that applies in any way to necons, or even to most camp-follower Republicans, obv.

the funny thing is if you go back to the Founding Fathers it was actually the more conservative/elitist/monarchist ones that were in favor of a strong federal government, while the more liberal/populist/egalitarian ones were more concerned about states' having some autonomy... of course slavery was the monkeywrench in the whole thing, with Jefferson being the most obvious example

personally for me its a weird issue because I am the leftiest of the left, but I have zero faith in the federal government - particularly given the last 30 years - and have way more faith in my state government to protect me and ensure my wellbeing (elections of idiot movie stars and seasonal racist propositions notwithstanding). I mean California has been way ahead of the rest of the country on so many issues that are important to me and affect me on a daily basis... I don't trust the federal government to do jackshit.

True enough. I'm talking about what's going on now -- or rather what's was going on for the last 100 years or so, until the neocons came along and threw a new monkeywrench.

http://www.ultraversum.com/RebelAlliance/cc_300.gif

xpost

I think it gets more complicated than that, though, Bob: there are stances that can emerge because they're expedient and still harden their way into principles and dogma. The fact that devolving power to states is bedrock conservative rhetoric these days has everything to do with the way the issues have lined up over the past 150 years -- most obviously a federal government trying to extend civil rights to blacks in the south, but also things like corporate regulation during the progressive era. But it's not always hard and fixed, and if it is, it's just because you're creating a tautology: of course conservatives are anti-federal if you define "conservative" as "being anti-federal."

I mean, I'm not really good with older American history, but it seems to me that the principles of states's rights and local control and such have gotten traded around issues and parties for hundreds of years, and for lots of different reasons -- we can go back and retrospectively categorize and decide all tax rebellions and federal buck-offs are "conservative," by our current definitions, but that's kind of (hahaha) Whiggish history.

"local governance and community standards" is hardly exclusively a conservative issue; i think you'd find that most progressives - from la follette to the green party - emphasize it.

Agree, Shakey. I'm in the same boat: far left, but with no faith in the federal goverment. Hell, no faith in goverment at any level, even as a concept. But like most libs, I think "we" (that is, you and I and all the institutions that arise out of human interaction, including goverments) have an obligation to do right, to correct injustice, and to help those in need. The fact that I perceive/imagine that obligation is, more or less, what makes me liberal.

Conservatives distrust the fed just as much as we do. But they don't seem to see/feel any obligations to fix the world's problems. They see the problems as natural, ineradicable - perhaps unfortunate, but not something they want to waste time & money addressing.

That's why the traditional left = small gov't, right = big gov't split has some real world traction.

***

Addendum: Nabisco OTM. Above is the "why" part.

Stars and Bars, First Flag of the Confederate States of America:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg/200px-CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg.png

Rebel Flag, Southern Cross, Confederate Battle Flag:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Battle_flag_of_the_US_Confederacy.svg/200px-Battle_flag_of_the_US_Confederacy.svg.png

J.D.: Agreed. Nothing is exactly cut-and-dried here. And to extend re: nabisco's comment, there are lots of ways I can imagine the small gov't position swinging back to the liberal/left camp, especially in the neocon/NAFTA era.

left = small gov't, right = big gov't

I think you mean the opposite here

Duh. Yeah.

That's why the traditional left = small gov't, right = big gov't left = small gov't, right = big gov't split has some real world traction.

the funny thing is if you go back to the Founding Fathers it was actually the more conservative/elitist/monarchist ones that were in favor of a strong federal government, while the more liberal/populist/egalitarian ones were more concerned about states' having some autonomy... of course slavery was the monkeywrench in the whole thing, with Jefferson being the most obvious example

afaik there are a couple other binary oppositions that map onto these and confuse the issue even more, esp from our vantage point, like urban vs rural, industrial/financial vs. agrarian and modernity vs classicism. and then all of this gets tied up in long-standing conflicts about any central authority: a king, a pope, a metropole.

"states rights," as a phrase has been completely poisoned by its use contra-civil rights, and i've never been able to hear it as anything other than a winking defense of racism.

many xps

Aaauuugh! Left = big, right = small. Fuck.

i've said this before, but the confederate flag HAS transformed into something beyond just an emblem of southern pride. without losing very much of its racism, it's come to symbolize "redneck pride" -- the 'git r done' version, upthread. you can see it on pickup trucks everywhere, north of the mason-dixon.

i think it's been largely de-regionalized and now serves as a free-floating emblem for poor white suburban populist-conservative dudes.

OTM. Plus, I listen to & endorse bands like the Stooges and the Sex Pistols, bands that openly flaunted Nazi symbols. I even like Burzum, though I can't say I endorse them/him. So how can I get too worked up about folks who fly the Rebel flag? It's just as much a rock icon as the iron cross.

Its place in truculent, defensive Southern identity mythology seems to outstrip it's racist associations at this point, at least to a lot of the people who stick it on their trucks and belt buckles.

GRETCHEN WILSON TO THREAD

excellent point, Bob. also, word to Kerm, even though I've been guilty of referring to the Confederate Battle Flag as "Stars & Bars".

without losing very much of its racism, is what i think, though. if anything, old-style direct racism has just been screened behind a broader contempt for "the city," which could include just about anything: the irs, coffee, rap music, welfare, hollywood, academia, even wall street.

But at that point you're lumping racism and xenophobia together as though they're the same thing, and they aren't. Similar, definitely related, but not identical.

nobody adopts the flag in "the modern south" without knowing what it stands for.

This is perhaps true and untrue.
The vast majority of people I encounter with a bumper sticker or flag are flying it out of their own sense of pride and lack of privilege - "a big fuck you to the Yankees!"/"I'm a real Southern Man!"/etc.

They understand what it stands for - and even why that might be bad (though, no, most people don't realize the role of the battle flag in the '50s and '60s). But there isn't a connection in their mind between THEM flying the flag and conscious racism (cf. the abortion thread - pro-lifers who come in for one but they have a GOOD reason).

It's the same way that these people bitch and moan about 'affirmative action' but only because they're so enlightened 'they just don't see race.'

And while you and I can safely call bullshit on either one, it's difficult to argue that they're engaging in conscious bigotry.

it's difficult to argue that they're engaging in conscious bigotry

uh oh. Is this where the thread takes the inevitable nasty turn?

Do left-leaning politicians invoke states rights though Shakey?

OTM. Plus, I listen to & endorse bands like the Stooges and the Sex Pistols, bands that openly flaunted Nazi symbols. I even like Burzum, though I can't say I endorse them/him. So how can I get too worked up about folks who fly the Rebel flag? It's just as much a rock icon as the iron cross.

I think that part of the controversy behind the rebel flag's symbolism is the century between the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement that gave the flag time to go through all sorts of symbolic transformations, vs. something like the swastika which never really stopped being associated with Jew-hating Nazis. (Possibly also due to the fact that symbolism was at the forefront of the Nazi movement to a much larger extent than it was in Confederate secessionism)

Itd be interesting to compare the rebel flag with the Aus Eureka flag which also has a history of rebellion and some conflicting connotations depending on who you ask.

That's why the traditional left = small gov't, right = big gov't left = small gov't, right = big gov't split has some real world traction.

It does seem counterintuitive that the folks on the side of weed and free love would be pro-more-gov't, and hence more "order", Freud be damned.

Itd be interesting to compare the rebel flag with the Aus Eureka flag which also has a history of rebellion and some conflicting connotations depending on who you ask.

Yeah, Trayce some major similarities.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/PYLsydneyraceriots.jpg/200px-PYLsydneyraceriots.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/LambingFlatRollUpBanner.jpg/180px-LambingFlatRollUpBanner.jpg

It does seem counterintuitive that the folks on the side of weed and free love would be pro-more-gov't, and hence more "order", Freud be damned.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say in referencing 'libertarian liberals' before everyone wanted to ban me for not doing research on the internet. I'm going to try to find that again.

Droone I just noriced the "NO CHINESE" in yr second pic, I hadnt spotted that on first glance.

Y'know sometimes I wish Hitler jus' woulda' won

Yuh, that's like where the "conflicting connotations" started.
I think.

The Roll Up banner around which a mob of about 1,000 men rallied and attacked Chinese miners at Lambing Flat in June 1861. The banner is now on display in the museum at Young.

xp

And yet, people hold up the Stockade and the southern cross flag as a source of aussie pride. Figures.

i gotta say tho, much as i hate the confederacy "dixie" is prob the only good patriotic anthem the u.s. ever produced.

It does seem counterintuitive that the folks on the side of weed and free love would be pro-more-gov't, and hence more "order", Freud be damned.
-libcrypt

Because of this, in order to satisfy their own moral imperatives as well as the endless needs of their endlessly needy core constituency, liberals must constantly try to fix the world's problems: The New Deal, labor laws, social programs, consumer protection, public defenders & public education, corporate regulation, etc. This requires government intervention in almost every area of life, and that makes for big, expensive government.

Conservatives, on the other hand, are beholden only to the needs of the wealthy -- a small and largely self-sustaining population. With the exception of the odd corporate bailout here or there, it doesn't cost much and requires almost no bureaucratic oversight. Course, this means that conservatives must somehow drum up support among the much more numerous lower and middle classes, but that's another discussion.

right-wing politics represent the rich and powerfu

I don't think that's true, especially in the U.S.

You kidding me? Mainstream right-wing American politics (by which I mean the conservative Republican party) have been dominated for decades by the interests of a very wealthy military-industrial elite. Bush and Reagan admins aren't some recent fluke. Every major Republican policy position is the straightforward demand of big business -- every one that isn't a sop delivered to poor social conservatives in order to garner votes, that is.

Why oppose environmental legislation and argue that global warming is a fiction? Because that's what big business wants. Why deregulate every major industry and restrict consumers' access to legal redress? Big business. Why oppose organized labor and expensive social services? Big business. Government spending that doesn't create infrastructure or encourage industry is a drain on the economy, and big business doesn't want that.

I know I'm being reductive. I'm ignoring the philosophical in favor of the pragmatic, the specific in favor of the general. But for decades, the American right has promoted economic policy driven entirely by the desires of big business.

...And the secret truth about all the "socially conservative" policy positions that the Republican party uses to shore up support among the voting classes is that they're (mostly) FREE. It costs nothing to allow prayer in schools or to deny gay people access to marriage. Nothing to ban flag burning and outlawing abortion has no substantial impact on the medical industry's bottom line. Killing affirmative action actually saves money and removes a thorn from corporate America's foot. Sure, the drug war is massively costly, but you have to take a bullet here and there. With the exception of the drug thing, all these positions are low cost and put zero restriction on the behavior and profitability of big business.

Core democratic social positions, on the other hand, can be massively costly. Increase the minimum wage. Give everybody access to free medical insurance. Save the environment. Give the needy & disenfranchised a leg up. These things tend to slow the economy and to restrict big business.

Then there's the tax issue. For the most part, Democrats attempt to increase taxes on the wealthy and big business, while Republicans look to cut taxes in exactly the same places. Liberals want to ensure a "progressive" system that takes according to ability, and gives according to need. Conservatives just want to ensure maximum liquidity for those who can do the most with what they have.

I could go on, but I won't. I mostly just can't begin to understand where you're coming from, Alfred.

This post is largely redundant, as I had my browser open for the past 20 minutes and didn't see Bob's new posts until I submitted mine. In any case...

right-wing politics represent the rich and powerful

I don't think that's true, especially in the U.S.

Alfred, I think that's why Bob alluded to "another discussion" here:

Course, this means that conservatives must somehow drum up support among the much more numerous lower and middle classes, but that's another discussion.

Right-wing politics, by and large, do represent the rich and powerful. But the reason we might not always immediately think "right wing = wealthy" is, of course, because of the widespread support from "regular ol' (white) American folk." This support exists because the Republican party has been so successful in pushing the core social consertive issues: abortion, gay marriage, family values, etc., but these are really just issues that get "middle America" to vote for the R.P. Even while social conservative issues (the hot-button controversial stuff that makes for talking points) often take the forefront in the media, the bulk of the R.P.'s real policies (as Bob just described) benefit the rich and powerful.

Saw a black dude driving a lowered Lincoln Towncar with a confederate flag sticker in the rear window and thought "hmmm, that's something."

This was in Burbank, CA.

Was he taking it back?

maybe he stole the car

Ha.

xpost so why was the Mexican he stole it from rocking that sticker?

"the bulk of the R.P.'s real policies benefit the rich and powerful."

And this brings up the dirty truth about the Democratic party: you can't simply fulfill the needs of the lower and the wants of the middle classes while ignoring big money. Unless you're a full-on communist, you have to accept that the interests of corporate America are vital to the health of the nation.

This means that liberal policy makers have a MUCH harder time of it - it's much easier to fool voters with vapid social policy positions that have nothing to do with your core interests (hence all the "socially conservative" Republican policy) than it is to fool companies with bogus economic rhetoric that won't actually improve the bottom line.

As a result, Republicans can at least play straight with corporate America while pandering to voters. Democrats, meanwhile, have to waffle, to shuffle, in essence to pander to both.

Mainstream right-wing American politics (by which I mean the conservative Republican party) have been dominated for decades by the interests of a very wealthy military-industrial elite. Bush and Reagan admins aren't some recent fluke. Every major Republican policy position is the straightforward demand of big business -- every one that isn't a sop delivered to poor social conservatives in order to garner votes, that is.

Dude, were you asleep during the Clinton years?

I won't deny the realignment of the parties since the mid sixties, but the military-industrial complex has been a fact of American government since the Cold War, and it's bought every president since Truman.

And this brings up the dirty truth about the Democratic party: you can't simply fulfill the needs of the lower and the wants of the middle classes while ignoring big money. Unless you're a full-on communist, you have to accept that the interests of corporate America are vital to the health of the nation.

this is closer to the truth, and this is how the more benevolent Clintonistas justified his rightward movements.

I think of my parents: Cuban-born naturalized citizens who've always voted Republican, and it's got fuck-all to do with family values. Insofar as they're victims of propaganda, it's seductive propaganda of the moderate GOP kind: they don't like taxes and, as self-reliant cusses who abandoned most everything when Fidel took power, don't understand welfare at all; they can't see why people can't "help themselves." They're vehemently pro-choice, are wary of homosexuality but support civil unions, and think the war has been a disaster.

Good point, re: Clinton, Alfred. But like I said, the Dems have to split the difference. The Democratic agenda hasn't really been what anyone would call "leftist" in a long time. It's more an attempt to balance the interests of corporate America - which controls the political purse strings in this country - with trad left/lib goals. Not really all that different from Republican attempts to balance business interest with social conservatism (arguably an easier walk).

A lot of folks say there's no difference between the two, that they're both sucking corporate dick and only pretending to care about anything else. I think that's too simplistic, though it seems to apply fairly well to Clinton. That said, and putting my values aside, I've got to admit that he was a very effective president. Managed to serve both the nation and his corporate benefactors, as opposed to Bush who clearly sacrificed one at the altar of the other.

Republican do-it-yourselfism has had a big appeal to immigrants over the last several decades. Especially to Cubans, given the shared anti-communism, hatred of Castro. Still, that's a special case. Course, America is patchwork, so it's all special cases, but "family values" and "character" seem to be very significant to mainstream red state Republican voters.

I agree with your analysis of how the parties straddle pleasing their roots and pledging their troth to corporate paymasters; but in Clinton you really saw the nadir of this kind of tricky footwork. Eight years later, what did he bring us? Don't-ask-don't tell? A welfare reform package that wiped the indigent from rosters? the Telecommunications Act? He makes me even angrier than Bush: clearly he had the hunger and gifts to sign into law what he'd promised his base in '92, but his laziness, disorganization, fondness for corporate doublespeak, and fascination with stats made it easier for GOP congressmen who already resented him to despise him.

Thus, when you write - A lot of folks say there's no difference between the two, that they're both sucking corporate dick and only pretending to care about anything else. I think that's too simplistic, though it seems to apply fairly well to Clinton – I simply groan and remember Clinton as a better Reagan than Reagan.

If you think that the rebel flag is rasist then look at your self. You don't know anything about history then. I fly the REBEL FLAG every day with pride and honor. I have never ment anyone more rasist than a BLACK. So all you white folks raise that flag with pride. The South Will Rise Again. So all you BLACKS take that to your monkey meetings and protest that like every other thing. So keep the WHITE RACE going and don't interbreed. WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER

See? Living proof that non-racist Americans fly the rebel flag!

the white race sucks

didnt they just do this on tyra?

oh oink invites.

JOHN CENA IS NOT A RASIALIST!

If you think that the rebel flag is rasist then look at your self.

G.O.A.T.

This explains something

we're 3rd for "rebel flag"+racist:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=sXM&q=%22rebel+flag%22+racist&btnG=Search&meta=

Yet, and this is how numpty random rasist found us, we win Google for "rebel flag"+rasist :)

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=wXM&q=%22rebel+flag%22+rasist&btnG=Search&meta=

Hey the WHITE race does not suck you do iiijjj!!
Who even came up with the word racist any what? Oh, I know black people so they could have a name to call anyone who does not agree with them or do what they do. Who would want to do what a black does anyway. I am WHITE so I do what southern whites do not what blacks do. You can't even understand them or their music at least southern whites can relate to COUNTRY. The SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!
WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER.

"WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER"

Which is it, Yankee-Lover?

Oh, stop it.

Who would want to do what a black does anyway.

Fascinating! What do blacks do? It must be very novel to warrant such scrutiny -- is there a handbook, perhaps?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a3/Office_episode_ben_franklin.jpg/225px-Office_episode_ben_franklin.jpg

foghorn leeghjorn not in my NEIGHBORHOOD

If the white race gets to have its own flag it should at least have more white in it.

http://boingboing.net/images/krasnow_ugly_flag.jpg

I always thought that the rebel flag was for um, rebels. You know, tough guys who flip their collars up and play by their own rules. Or that yellin' girl in that Billy Idol song.

In elementary school, I bought a Confederate flag keychain under precisely this misconception. I might as well have bought a sign that said "Hey everybody! I know you don't talk to me anyway, but if you wouldn't mind standing ten feet further away, it would be appreciated."

take that to your monkey meetings
take that to your monkey meetings
take that to your monkey meetings
take that to your monkey meetings
take that to your monkey meetings
take that to your monkey meetings

tough guys who flip their collars up and play by their own rules
tough guys who flip their collars up and play by their own rules
tough guys who flip their collars up and play by their own rules
tough guys who flip their collars up and play by their own rules
tough guys who flip their collars up and play by their own rules
tough guys who flip their collars up and play by their own rules

WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER

Isn't that usually called Duke Power?

If you buy a rebel flag real white people should stand 10 feet closer. The rebel flag is a good thing for me because black people stand 20 feet away from me and that is how I like it.So " What do ya think about that." If you would rather call WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER, DUKE POWER then so be it. And kerm no I am not a yankee lover. I say WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER for a reason so I cover all of my groups. And so I clearify for every one that yankees and non-southerns don't count. Hope that answered your question you yankee. So let her fly. The South Will Rise Again. WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER.

This thread is gonna be de-indexed, right? Everyday-blowhard Southern racists are easier to giggle at than crazed neo-Nazis or whatever, but you still don't want too many dropping by.

I'm pretty sure Bubba Boy is a fake googler.

If you would rather call WHITE/SOUTHERN POWER, DUKE POWER then so be it.

lol RONG

clearify

BROWN/COLOMBIAN POWER

Three years from now Bubba Boy is going to be here talking about how great the new Justin Timberlake single is and photoshopping cocks onto pictures of Ned.
I have seen it happen before.

lololol

Yeah, the posting style does seem kinda like a fake ILX0r.

http://www.swampland.com/img/Image/articles/mollyhatchet/hatchetdeathdealer.jpg

I'm pretty sure Bubba Boy is a fake googler.

The abundance of capital letters -- yet not ALL caps -- gives it away. On the other hand, ALL CAPS would be a giveaway as well.

dont de-index, move to IRE or ITR

for some in the south, the flag is a southern (regional) pride thing, not necessarily pride in the racism/oppression/etc, but pride in southern culture in general, which can actually be pretty dang integrated. shit like bbq and the blues, etc.

of course, everywhere else it's that flag for those people. and it doesn't help that nationalism/regionalism is typically the kind of thing that's overdone by jackasses who think their one way, one colored crap makes them the hot shit. so naturally the buttheads reinforce the age old connotations.

it's definitely a poor choice. it's a shame cause southern culture is definitely not all bad. i guess some icons can't be born again.
m.

definitely not all bad

wow thanks.

sort of reminds me of comstock carbinieri -- can't say how.

welcome back, marcello carlin.

HEY LISTEN IT GETTING TO WHERE WHITES ARE BEING RAN OVER CAUSE THEY ARE WHITE I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANYONE ONE OF ANY COLOR OR RACE BUT WHEN I DAUGHTER OF 6 YEARS OLD WAS ON HER WAY TO SCHOOL ON THE BUS A BLACK CHILD BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF HER MY DAUGHTER HAS A HREAT PROBELM AND ASTHMA AND SHE TRIED TO TELL HER TEACHER BUT NO ONE WOULD LISTEN WHEN SHE GOT HOME SHE TOLD US SHE WAS PUCNHED IN HEART FACE TROWN UP AGAISNT THE WINDOW ALL WHILE NO ONE DID ANYTHING TO HELP MY DAUGHTER THE SCHOOL SHE WENT TO WAS IN TEXAS AND MY OTHER DAUGHTER WAS 9 AND ALL THE KIDS TREATED HER LIKE SHE HAD THE PLAGUE CAUSE SHE WAS WHITE THEY TOLD HER AND OTHERS DONT TOUCH THAT SHE TOUCHED AND SHE IS WHITE THREW USED TOLIT PAPER AT HER AND PUT IN HER LOCKER PENCILS THROWN AT HER AND SHE WAS BEATEN UP BY A BLACK BOY AND DID ANY ONE DO ANYTHING TO HELP HER NOOOO CAUSE SHE WAS WHITE AND THEY WAS BLACK EVEN THE TEAHERS MADE HER FEEL LIKE CRAP WELL IT GOT SO BAD WE MOVED AND DID YOU KNOW WHY THERE WAS NO WHITE KIDS IN THAT SCHOOL WELL THEY WAS ALL HOMED SCHOOL WELL WE ALL KNOW WHY NOW NOW LET ME TELL YOUS OMETHING TO ALL IS OK FOR ALL TO KEPP SAYINGT I DIDNT GET THSI JOB BECAUSE IM BLACK OR ANOTHER COLOR YALL SAY WHITES ARE RACIST WELL LET ME TELL YOU ALL YOU ARE AZZ ES OVER THIS THE ONES THAT RAE THIS WAY R THEY ONES THAT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS SO WHO IS GONNA HELP US WHITES OR BLACKS OR BROWN R WHAT EVER COLOR WHEN ALL THE REST THAT ACT LIKE THIS LIKE I SAID IHAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANY COLOR OR RACE ONLY THE ONES THAT ACT LIKE THIS WAKE UP SEE WHAT YOU ARE ALL DOING TO YOUR KIDS THEY ACTIING LIKE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SHE WAS PUCNHED IN HEART FACE

So someone CAN make their face into a heart!

Beautiful.

Can someone upload an mp3 of a speech-software robo-voice reading that whole paragraph?

dont de-index, move to IRE or ITR

-- gr8080, Monday, September 24, 2007 5:17 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark Link

1p3

ITR is the usual home of weirdo racist troll threads

the DC crew do get out of hand sometimes.

brother you don't know the half of it

Can someone upload an mp3 of a speech-software robo-voice reading that whole paragraph?

http://boomp3.com/m/149721572ca7

lololololol

Why the hell is it that every other goddamned white racist out there thinks he's a fucking genius for exposing Sharpton's/Jackson's so-called "hypocrisy" in not championing the rights of every single white guy who's ever possibly suffered an injustice, regardless how slight, at the hands of a black person? Hello! Al Sharpton's not the Welcome Wagon, Amnesty International, or the motherfucking POPE!

I wish he were the pope, tho. That'd be cool.

Half the time it's a deliberately racist symbol. 45% of the time it's a symbol of "Southern Nationalism" for people who take pride in the aspects of the south they should be ashamed of if they had any decency. The fact that the people who often wave it are the type of people that honestly think that the Civil War was about protective tariffs for the Industrial Northeast rather than human bondage, or that the former offense was much more risible than the latter often doesn't bode well for them either. The other 5% of the time it's just an indicator & general reminder that Lynard Skynard is in town.

As Sir Zingmeister Ethan will point out, it's not about intention; it's about context.

you don't have to defend the word retard to me.

esp. while jordan sargent's here.

― hstencil, Thursday, September 6, 2007 12:32 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I had a vision of what life would be like if every rebel flag turned into a black flag with a red anarchy symbol. Overall quite an improvement. It would be strange seeing it fly outside of South Carolina government headquarters though.

I approve of that 100%

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/gov-mcauliffe-orders-confederate-flag-to-be-removed-from-virginia-license-plates/33728080

Yeah, sort of a wave. Texas license plate court decision, Walmart, VA, Mississippi, South Carolina. Let's see if any of the state stuff actually comes to pass.

the state stuff is the only one that fucking matters; who cares if stores continue to sell this, stores should be able to sell whatever they want. It's the state-sanctioned placement of these that is bad.

Amazon out, NASCAR out. Though I guess NASCAR has been anti-confed flag for a while now:

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. (June 23, 2015) – "As we continue to mourn the tragic loss of life last week in Charleston, we join our nation's embrace of those impacted. NASCAR supports the position that South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley took on the Confederate Flag on Monday. As our industry works collectively to ensure that all fans are welcome at our races, NASCAR will continue our long-standing policy to disallow the use of the Confederate Flag symbol in any official NASCAR capacity. While NASCAR recognizes that freedom of expression is an inherent right of all citizens, we will continue to strive for an inclusive environment at our events."

this is all long overdue. by about 150 years.

Yeah, no shit.

i have a question -- was there a resurgence of official endorsement of CSA iconography during the Civil Rights era (as a reaction to mass movement against segregation)? does it date to turn-of-the-(last)century resurgence of Jim Crow laws? or has that shit been pretty constant since 1870s?

i mean in an immediate post-Civil War context it's hard to imagine flying the CSA flag as being anything but treasonous.

It took Jim Crow and Supreme Court decisions to give the flag its anodyne cover (1890s and beyond iirc).

i have a question -- was there a resurgence of official endorsement of CSA iconography during the Civil Rights era (as a reaction to mass movement against segregation)?

Flag of Georgia 1956 ... I think some other southern states changed their flags during the same period.

When I was a kid, the confederate flag was kinda kitsch. You had the Duke Boys with it on their roof, you could buy confederate stickers out of a vending machine... We were watching the Muppet Movie a few months ago, and there's a scene at the fair where a kids waving one around.

It's not kitsch when it's used by hate groups and flown around the capitol, but there was a time during the Carter years where it was just kind of a "heh, oh yeah, that silly thing" kind of deal.

http://i.imgur.com/wa8IJ32.jpg

Don't Come Around Here No More!

yeah there was a kind of epater-le-bourgeois vibe to it. gram parsons routinely played in front of a big stars'n'bars. so did bobby charles:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lukukifgiu1qfelyxo1_1280.jpg

epater-les-yankees, i guess

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420177/re-dishonorable-confederate-battle-flag-jonah-goldberg

Shorter Jonah: the logical case against the flag is pretty airtight, but humans are emotional, too, so give those flag wavers a pass.

Goddamm, Skynyrd:

http://i.imgur.com/cjFydtc.jpg

couldn't they have worked a swastika in there somehow

Naw man, that would be overkill.

http://i.imgur.com/0AKoEtX.jpg

lol

I guess that's what some people are getting at when they defend different uses of the flag. I grew up thinking it synonymous with the south/rednecks, as a kitsch thing but also just a regional signifier. Never thought of it as racist, though obviously it always has been. But I suppose there are some parallels with the Don't Tread on Me flag, too, since I always thought of that as a sort of kitsch rebel signifier, too - like Don't Mess With Texas - but now when I see the yellow snake flag I feel pretty certain about the kind about the people flying it. What never made any sense was flying the rebel flag over state capitals. Like, what the fuck? Let idiots or non-idiots or whomever wear it on their belt buckle or trucker hat or whatever, if that's what they want. People can and should call them on it, and they can try to defend it. But on the state flag or over official buildings? That never made any sense.

This was a great book, I thought:
https://books.google.com/books/content?id=71tu1fJeP_EC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE72E41Br7md-UCA4JiZ8dN3xD4KCG-vbYWgVWZlMhoj-gEoNmYAePOEtH7CZ9En53DswsX1KG2vq8cyVwk0fqy0c7IQ74t2s9Sh6EcdmaMy7M65Whygrv3sA4HjSdokn4VNCf7W0

Proto duality of the Southern thing, I guess.

yeah that's a great book (also kinda depressing)

Was once slumming out by the county line and saw a dude dressed in a blood-red dress shirt with blue suspenders. You can guess how many stars there were on the back.

wasn't this on several Alabama covers too? I notice it's not on their website at all. Wonder when that went away.

We're probably going to be here for awhile if we start naming country bands who have used that flag.

But that said, their website looks like it's missing one of its members too!

Yeah, the drummer checked out a few years ago.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/the-cultural-cleansing-of-the-southern-states-begins.html

poor choice of words, starnes

Now that's what I call really refusing to play along.

Xp

And I endorse completely a car with a painted rainbow on it called the General Sherman.

If you've seen the Dukes film from about 10 years ago, you know that they've already had a little bit of fun with how stupid the flag on top of the car is.

did it turn into a parachute?

That Starnes column mentions GWTW, which I've been thinking about, too. I know people have been calling it out for years, but the movie (more than the book) still gets a respectability pass in most quarters. I wonder if we're at the point where it starts getting the "Birth of a Nation" treatment.

And I endorse completely a car with a painted rainbow on it called the General Sherman.

― pplains, Tuesday, June 23, 2015 10:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Or how about just an American flag, even.

In the scene prior to this one, they'd just picked the car up from the paint shop without noticing what their friend had painted on the roof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1r8RNN8s84

Or how about just an American flag, even.

did you read the todd s. tarnes article?

No, I did. Sorry, I was more responding to Tarnes' use of the rainbow, not yours. Enjoy your rainbow-colored charger, by all means.

yee-haw. take my heritage, but leave me my PRIDE.

Just put an airbrushed Daisy up there.

I’m assuming Hollywood will cooperate with the South’s cultural cleansing by eradicating any copies of “Gone with the Wind” and “Forrest Gump.” Forrest was named after the aforementioned Nathan Bedford Forrest.

I think Forrest Gump will be ok, Todd

I'm fine w eradicating both films tbh

My kid somehow stumbled upon Forrest Gump on Netflix last month and thinks it's the best thing ever and watches it all the damn time. I don't even know what to do.

cancel netflix? change your password?

disown him? walk faster when you see him cross the street?

Curl up into a ball mumbling "where did I go wrong? where did I go wrong?"

buy a ping-pong table. pay school kids to come play with him

Just feel smug when you explain it to him how awful it is when he gets older

It's really easy as a kid to completely miss the atrocious politics of that film

what are the politics of Forrest Gump?

it's like the politics of dancing

ooookay

what are the politics of Forrest Gump?

as long as you maintain an imbecilic naivete about the world, great things will happen to you! however if you have sex or do drugs you will die of AIDS.

So the right-wing talking point of the day is, if the Confederate flag has to go, so should the gay pride flag. (Becz it oppresses Christians.)

I missed the part where gays enslaved an entire ethnic population when was that again

the pride flag is tacky tbh

the gays have enslaved the straight minority of San Francisco for generations, Shakey.

Sparta iirc

Where is the gay flag flying over any government building?

the gays have enslaved the straight minority of San Francisco for generations, Shakey.

I guess I have nothing to lose but these fuzzy oversize novelty handcuffs

I thought that South Carolina kid sounded familiar.

From two years back:

http://gawker.com/heres-the-flag-crazy-senate-intern-email-everyone-in-d-816714302

Had a thing for saying the Pledge of Allegiance, too

Key West.

xpost

SF City Hall:
http://blogs.denverpost.com/opinion/files/2013/06/520915795-495x343.jpg

Had no idea General Sherman ever marched through San Francisco.

The city's gays, grateful, wanted to rename him General Therman.

more like General Her-Man amirite

I apologize for the previous post

On behalf of sodomites, I forgive you.

you all know what the flag means. congratulations. now shutup. you could have made this thread into something interesting but you turned it into faggotry. I gave a simple conversation topic... it went downhill.

― CaptainLorax, Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:51 AM (7 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it took me 3 days to read through this entire thread. I kept keeling over in embarrassment and waiting 24 hours to try again
:/

"That Starnes column mentions GWTW, which I've been thinking about, too. I know people have been calling it out for years, but the movie (more than the book) still gets a respectability pass in most quarters"

There has been a lot of hubub in some quarters lately about conceptual poet Vanessa Place, who for some time has run a twitter feed emblazoned with 'mammy' imagery which has posted only the most racist sounding bits of GWTW (the text). She was just removed from AWP panels for next year for this.

glenn beck just said he was in favor of taking down the flag and that the states rights argument was horseshit

we are through the looking glass folks

Was his rationale that Southern Baptist thing that's getting passed around? It's either that or money. None of these guys are doing it for the reasons they should be doing it, but whatever.

now that the writing (kind of remarkably) is on the wall, gotta get out front

'democrats (eg strom thurmond) put the flag up; republicans (eg also strom thurmond) are taking it down'

Makes sense. All of these state legislatures are GOP controlled, so it's their action or no action at all. Of course they're spinning it to their advantage.

Well fine then. It took a Southern Democrat to sign the Civil Rights Bill. Only Nixon could've gone to China. Obama's gotten really good at killing people. If Nikki Haley wants to lean over those nine graves and say WE TOOK THAT FLAG DOWN Y'ALL, OK? then let 'em spin it.

i agree

xp very reasonable perspective honestly

this is dumb:
http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2015/06/25/the-confederate-battle-flag-in-gaming-comes-under-fire/

strategy games should include the historically accurate symbols of the groups they're portraying. i wouldn't ask a WW2 sim to remove the Nazi flag, civil war games shouldn't excise the confederate flag either.

pretty much anyone who thinks about that for a second would agree that it's dumb

Apple does these kinds of overreactions all the time. I'll be reversed in a week

http://i.imgur.com/SrDDqOg.jpg

so the confed flag can't be in the app store but the nazi flag is A-OK!

good job Tim Cook.

lay under a steam roller much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr-mt1P94cQ

Bree Newsome scaled the pole this morning and took the flag down over South Carolina.

haha how have they not had guards on that thing 24-7

If you watch the end, they were arresting a guy in a hard hat too (I think?). Perhaps it was an inside job.

i took it that he was a helper dressed that way to give her cover

Yeah. Apparently she went up there prepared to be arrested and already had a legal team ready to go. She is awesome.

well, that's civil disobedience, letter for letter

Hero.

Yes.

Guards put the flag back up unfortunately

Dammit. That's not what I wanted to hear.

You thought the guards were going to be all, "Well, hell, now what do we do? She took our last one!"

Would be cool if it turned into something people decorated/defaced on the regular, like the peeing boy statue in Brussels.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIhUJFbWsAA_4P7.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIhUJFaW8AABicW.jpg

Wow, hero.

Is there not some kind of compromise flag that they can hang up there? Why not the SC state flag? Or something celebrating the heritage of the state - "Birthplace of Dizzy Gillespie!" or w/e?

The whole reason it's there is because it used to fly on top of the dome and they moved it off the dome to its own special pole, and they passed some weird regulations to prevent it from coming down easily. Really, the best option is to just take the pole down, but you probably don't want to get caught with explosives on gov't property.

Thanks JF

lol weird she's from my hometown, i saw her play dorothy in the wiz like 15 years ago cause my brother was in the pit band

Turns out one of my friends in Charlotte works with the photog who took the iconic pic.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/93f1592dd566723da6309310155a77cc/tumblr_nqm2cyADzU1qlsrn9o6_500.gif

For just a moment, I thought the two black officers on the scene were giving each other a solidarity fist bump. They were only passing the key, though.

http://gawker.com/racist-idiots-hold-pro-confederate-flag-rallies-across-1714438078

God hates flags

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIhA6nNWUAAwGl7.jpg

thought this was Christopher Guest for a moment

Adding a cartoon of a green largemouth bass to the flag seems like an interesting way to people halfway

I know that people have trouble hearing the lyrics to Dylan's 'Subterranean Homesick Blues', but come on...

Lol

Any Bree Newsome updates?

Michael Moore offered to pay the entirety of her legal bills, so that's something.

Yankees shot great grandpa for a damn good reason. We should all be grateful the confederacy died along with him.

One of the stupidest things about this for me is that NOTHING is preventing any of these butthurt people from displaying their beloved flag on their own damn property or car or clothing. Aside from maybe the increasing public perception of them as assholes.

They just can't buy them anywhere anymore.

That's a shame

Just now Googled it---looks like the places (mostly Mom & Pop?) still selling are doing right well.

Bet Alex Jones, Rush, at least one of those guys, will start giving 'em away.

Or, you know, special discount, get it while you can, brothers & sisters.

Can't believe no one posted "when its a writing desk" in 8 years.

They should keep selling them as long as they look like this.

http://i.imgur.com/wmPYW1q.jpg

It'd be like a Klansman showing up at a rally with a frilly embroidered pillowcase upon his head.

Big Mouth Billy Bass Will Rise Again!

I was going to joke about letting them appropriate the Rebel Alliance insignia but then I image searched and SURE ENOUGH, it seems a number of confederate flag defenders (with varying degrees of graphic design accomplishment) gone & done precisely that :/

I'm disappointed that a church shooting happened and the political debate turned into an argument over pulling down a flag. I see the SC Confederate flag as a good thing -- it reminds non-racists to stay out of SC.

I see the SC Confederate flag as a good thing -- it reminds non-racists to stay out of SC.

what?

what?

you should read that as a wannabe Oscar Wilde paradox that epic failed

(xp) so the best way to solve racial oppression is to move? to live somewhere else so you don't get racist cooties? to leave oppressed people who are stuck in SC to fend for themselves?

everybody shd move to one of those non-racist states/countries like oh hang on

"stuck" not entirely the right word to use there, sorry

South Carolina: where the streets are molasses

slow southern style

I was with you on the first sentence, not so much on the second.

I see the SC Confederate flag as a good thing -- it reminds non-racists to stay out of SC.

This is wrong. However, I fully support a variation of this belief, which is that while state governments should take down the Confederate flags, they should still be sold to private citizens, because they serve as a handy "Hi, I'm A Huge Asshole" badge.

dan, as a bostonian you should know that ain't funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood

Still kind of a sticky subject, huh.

am: :-)

Always liked Brad Paisley's solution in "Camouflage:"

Well the stars and bars offend some folks and I guess I see why
Nowadays there's still a way to show your southern pride
The only thing as patriotic as the old red white and blue
Is green and gray and black and brown and tan all over too

I prefer racism to be announced rather than to be hidden. The flag can be pointed to whenever someone claims that the southern states' policies aren't based on racism.

i always laugh when i'm reminded of that molasses flood, then i think about how awful it would be to suffocate in molasses. :(

you might say the laughter sticks in my throat... like molasses.

i'll be here all day.

ask chaku

It'd be a sweet way to go.

I have to think that a wave of molasses moving fast enough to drown you must be terrifying but otoh lol

how many victims do you think thought "maybe I'll just get a cupful and then get out"

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=374_1435549300

Taken down in South Carolina.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/09/confederate-flag-south-carolina-approves-removal-of-contentious-symbol

Though there are certainly people who have a strong view of history but no idea how history might view them:

“I’m willing to move that flag at some point if it causes a twinge in the hearts of my friends,” Pitts said. “But I’ll ask for something in return.”

Liked this from an interview with writer Percival Everett: http://www.vqronline.org/interviews-articles/2015/07/construction-place-interview-percival-everett

I’ve read about the incident in the South Carolina statehouse in 1989, in which you, protesting the presence of the Confederate flag, walked out of the statehouse after you were asked to speak.

They asked me if I would address the legislature. I said “yes” but I knew that I wouldn’t, because I knew the flag was in there. So I simply stood up and said, “Because of the symbol of exclusion, I can’t talk to you.” And I sat down.

Did that moment influence your short story about appropriating the Confederate flag, “The Appropriation of Cultures”?

It’s about symbols, in general. The story is pretty obvious so I won’t mention the story. I will say that I have since changed my mind about the flag. I think it ought to fly over the statehouse. In the same way that if I come to a field and it’s full of land mines, I appreciate a sign that says land mines.