Do you watch what you eat?

I've always struggled with my weight so am constantly watching portions and general fat/calorie intake. I'm also a vegetarian and try to avoid too many processed foods so that is a whole other set of concerns. That said, I love food and indludge at least once a week. It would be too boring otherwise!

Yes, I pay attention to what I eat, but the nutrition class that I'm taking makes me want to eat really unhealthy stuff way more often. (so immature...)

I also work in the nutrition dept at Harvard so am costantly being bombarded with info about what to eat and what to avoid! x-post to self.

i kinda avoid processed food and over eating.

I tend to drink low-carb beer if i'm binge drinking, and I never eat fast-food. And, in general, I prefer savoury food rather than sweet. I try to avoid things with added sugar and so on.

(low carb beer is a relatively new deal in Australia)

this seems like the kind of behavior that might provoke considerable scorn from your rowdy countrymen

I think it's increasingly acceptable..

well, I like to think it is anyway

Well it may seem crazy but I really do make a consistent and committed effort to eat healthy and low-fat. jhoshea is right! People think I'm completely weird for eating salad every day! It's just become a habit with me that I try to get as many veggies and fiber into my daily routine as possible. This is even true on the weekends when I'm drunk. I'm just puzzled that people seem to single me out for this or like they're jealous or they think I'm strange. It just seems normal to me. Granted I still have high cholesterol and it's frustrating because I know for a fact that I eat healthy and don't deserve that. It's the alcohol that doesn't help.

I avoid cheese unless it's the vegetarian/vegan variety. I also avoid sugar unless it's evaporated cane juice, which doesn't seem to hurt my teeth as much. I'm hoping I manage to avoid being diabetic if I stay away from sugar. I can even resist those delicious orange pumpkin shaped candies for sale at Halloween, which were a real weakness for me in the past.

I rather wish I was a nutritionist myself...I guess that's the career path I'll just never get the chance to know. I'm always looking up info online about foods and what they do for the body and stuff. I was intrigued to find that spinach is just slightly healthier than romaine.

Anyway, this might be more than anyone here wants to know! ;)

I watch what I eat to make sure it doesn't try to escape on the sly.

oh, that was cute.

Just kidding. I'm a vegetarian, and tofu is a slow-moving beast.

I voted "no," but I have the unfair advantage of being naturally averse to certain foods, like candy. Can't really do that at all, even though I love a nice small piece of really fine chocolate. If I gorge on sweets, I will pay dearly by having a major sugar crash that is really unpleasant for myself and anyone around me.

spinach is just slightly healthier than romaine

isn't there something about raw spinach that's not near as good for you as cooked spinach? "Nutrition blockers," I've heard them called, chemicals that cancel each other when you eat them raws and make many raw foods no more nourishing than lettuce.

*curious, interested high tone of voice* I'm not sure about that Kenan, I will have to read up on it. I know the vegan cafe here seems to have this thing about "raw foods".

Anyway regarding Tofu...They say tempeh is much easier for your system to digest than Tofu because it's fermented, but I admit I hate going to the trouble of cooking it. You really have to boil/ fry it in a bunch of water first before baking it or it's not that great. It needs to absorb water to really be any good. I found this out from a fantastic vegetarian buffet place in Canada. I don't understand why we don't have places like that here in the States. Sure I love the vegan cafe here, but it's so much nicer when you have this big variety to choose from at will.

here we go:

"Oxalic acid in raw spinach forms an insoluble complex with calcium and iron and renders uncooked spinach a non-nutritious green."

http://forums.chef2chef.net/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=383255

How fucking weird! I've been eating spinach salad at work for the longest time, too!

I do know that cooked tomatoes are better for you than raw.

well, raw spinach is not going to hurt you, and I doubt very much that any raw vegetable will actually cause *damage*. That's gloom-and-doom stuff, imo. But it seems to be true that in many cases, you get way more out of veggies when you cook them.

I will only eat at a raw food restaurant that also serves raw meat. Sushi will do, but I would love a restaurant that served reasonably sized, safe portions of raw red meat.

xpost

But in some sense I must disagree with that, I mean...doesn't heat destroy Vitamin C for example? I mean I like steamed veggies, but surely if you overdo it and boil them then all the nutrients get lost?

Oh no - no red meat for me - I only eat fish every once in awhile, mainly Salmon. I believe I'm healthier that way than if I never ate any meat at all.

ENBB, can you shed any light on this cooking vegetables thing? The article Kenan references just bugs me the more I analyze it.

I had heard of Basil's toxicity but god I'm crazy about pesto sauce and strangely I haven't died yet.

I worry about what I eat, which isn't quite the same as watching it.

I have a hunch that the zero carb diet will eventually turn out to be the right balance, given the rise of diabetes 2 and 'fatty liver' condition. I don't follow it myself.

I'm quite careful about portion control, try to eat a lot of fruit and veg, avoid overly fatty or processed stuff (that said, proper butter (non-processed) wins out over odd spread stuff (low fat) every time), I eat less meat and buy organic when I do for reasons of ethics and taste and I try to buy fish that are caught sustainably, only buy free-range eggs and try really hard to keep the food miles down. But I am not adverse to the occassional gooey browny, big slice of cake, massive bacon sandwich etc. And I don't eat too much wheat because it makes my stomach look like a balloon. Also, my boyfriend is allergic to all forms of pea, so they're out too - don't really want to kill him by accident.

That sounds mental all written down, but it basically means I tend to eat things that look like actual food, rather than a colourful display of chemicals. Well, except for the wheat and the peas.

I drink too much though.

They say tempeh is much easier for your system to digest than Tofu because it's fermented, but I admit I hate going to the trouble of cooking it. You really have to boil/ fry it in a bunch of water first before baking it or it's not that great. It needs to absorb water to really be any good.

Huh, why bother baking it? Just rip it out of the package, and fry it up in some sesame oil, and dump some tamari or soy sauce on it. If you're feeling ambitious, throw some minced ginger and maybe a little garlic/onions in the oil. Sliced this is wonderful on a sandwich w/tomatoes...or cubed it's great in a stir-fry context with some brown rice (or millet!) and whatever vegetable(s) you are feeling ambitious enough to throw into the mix.

(low carb beer is a relatively new deal in Australia)

lol pure blonde lol

(you pussy drink coopers sparkling and all the yeast that goes with it)

this seems like the kind of behavior that might provoke considerable scorn from your rowdy countrymen lol

soy is not actually all that great for you, supposedly*

*excuses, excuses

kenan your source for the info that raw spinach is "non-nutritious" is not exactly bullet-proof

i don't always have the most nutritious meals but i never eat chocolate bars, v. rarely crisps, never drink coke, and try to buy only "real food"

What is real food?

I don't understand why people categorically decide that all processed food is bad. This just isn't the case, and oftentimes the opposite is true.

pls explain

...go on

I'm gonna have such a hard time losing all this excess weight. On top of that I have water retention which means this month I gained 6 kilos! Urgh.

Water retention doesn't count Nath. Unless it's coming off.

Huh? How do you mean, it doesn't count? :-( (Bear with me, I'm extremely slow these days...)

stop eating frites with mayo belgians!!!! then maybe you might be skinny like the rest of us!!

not likely but still try

"real food" = no diet, no skim, no decaf

I meant you shoudln't really count water weight when you weigh yourself and feel all 'ugghh' about it, because it's not that big a deal, but if you loose weight it's fine to celebrate, even if it is just the water.

Anyway, don't feel bad, you're in the late stages of pregnancy! You get a lovely baby at the end of it and go back to your lovely slenderella self.

I usually watch what I eat in terms of health/weight consciousness. I do generally feel better when I do this. However when I'm stressed/depressed all bets are off and I'll just eat what I want. Not a healthy attitude I know but it's better than crack.

I've also really being trying to avoid processed foods lately. Although I won't deny myself the occasional crap any way I can cut it out of my life the better. (Like absolutely using butter instead of "spread". The extra calories are worth it.)

I've recently all but given up soda. I went from 3-4 a day to maybe one a week. Replaced it with sparkling water and am very happy.

i know this will sound smug but i just can't even stomach soda any more, it makes me feel gross and phlegmatic

Nah, well, I bring my lunches to work and often skip dinner, seldom eat out, cook at home. So as long as I know that fresh ingreds. went into my dinner, I don't calorie-count. I probably should. Altho I do try to ramp up the taste of things I like, instead of upping the quantity. So for instance, cheese: I buy it sharper and stronger, instead of greater quantities.

Still apt to have a rootbeer float for dessert, though.

Salt, salt is my downfall. If I ever turn out to be salt-sensitive I'm going to be in big trouble, becuase I adore salt.

So do I but I gave it up

Well, apart from the fact that it's already in everything you eat anyway!

i just can't even stomach soda any more, it makes me feel gross and phlegmatic

Me too now that I've all but stopped. When I do have one I usually don't finish it because it just feels so heavy and gross.

Because of one of my medications I'm actually discouraged from cutting back on salt. Yay!

i'm in a starvation cycle.

Ramadan?

no thanks

http://goveg.com/feat/chewonthis/index.asp

this video is a little hand-wavey, but i am sort of the mind that if you can't stomach the site of someone slitting a cow's throat, you probably shouldn't eat meat

also, yes, i watch what i eat

this video is a little hand-wavey, but i am sort of the mind that if you can't stomach the site of someone slitting a cow's throat, you probably shouldn't eat meat

Utter piffle. I can't stomach the site of open heart surgery but I'm not going to turn it down if I need it.

Would you eat a human heart?

I'm not sure I find "because meat is filthy...bloody" a compelling reason to stop eating it, though. :)

I like it a bit bloody.

Oh, I edited that wrong -- but I meant that it's not nec filthy at all, depending on where it came from, and the bloody part alone isn't a negative. Hahah xp

don't ever use the word "piffle" with me again.

also: heart surgery /= eating another animal you moron

xp yeah, bloody never bothered me! it's delicious! the filthy, though, does bother me. i haven't purchased meat since i moved away from Meat Country, and i sort of don't plan to

Ha ha, you called me a moron!

I watch what I eat according to the phrasing of the poll - not always giving into temptation - but not nearly as much as most of the other people who've answered!

And I feel much better about my non-vegetarianism since I saw an animal slaughtered a few feet away and found I still enjoyed lamb.

i did! because you made an inapt comparison between two entirely different things! like how a moron would do!

:D

Am v curious about what kind of defense Jeff was going to mount for processed foods...?

also: heart surgery /= eating another animal

The sight of heart surgery. The sight of slaughtering an animal. Easy enough for you to understand now?

between = of, oops who is the moron now

xp UH

o i c

Once I subbed for a HS agriculture class and since the teacher left no plans I made them watch a video of pig slaughtering and processing. Some of the girls were upset but since they raised and sold pigs through 4H I told them it was irresponsible not to know what would happen to those pigs.

Also the video was in the teacher's library so it wasn't like I was totally out of line. Still sounds a bit mean, though. Hmm. I was bitter then, and probably hungover.

One of these things is not like the other / one of these things just doesn't belong.

Okay so to look for the best in Tom's "argument", some people's gore threshhold is such that even beneficial procedures under sterile conditions are unwatchable...on the other hand, if you ever get hungry enough and there's a chicken running around...

they were in 4H but they didn't actually deal with the animals themselves? our country is ripe for invasion

we should probably save this for one of the thousands of meat and veg threads, but still:

thinking surgery is gross but having it done TO YOURSELF is completely different from thinking the sight of a stuck pig is gross and icky and squirmy but then EATING THAT PIG ANYWAY EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T HAVE TO>

as far as the thread is concerned: meat is really the only thing i avoid from time to time, even though i <3 it. not for health reasons, really, but because i've been spoiled by so-called "ethically-raised," grass-fed, organic, yah yah yah yah yah cattle and bison.

they were in 4H but they didn't actually deal with the animals themselves?

They raised them, fattened them and then got blue ribbons and auctioned them off. This is all I know of the juvenile agriculture industry. I have always lived in urban environments and am a former vegetarian.

yeah that's probably how it's always worked, i guess i always thought there was more real-deal farming goin on

"real-deal" farming basically doesn't exist anymore, and probably hasn't for about 50 years

i've been spoiled by so-called "ethically-raised," grass-fed, organic

I can't think of a lot of reasons I would want to move to Montana, but this would be one of them.

The fortnightly ILX food throwdown is unusually civil this time around.

I can't think of a lot of reasons I would want to move to Montana.

To raise dental floss maybe? Sorry, a little touch ILM on ILX there.

it's a pretty good one, i'll admit. produce prices were through the roof, though, so it was a bit of a trade-off.

still, looking at the meat counters here sort of makes me queasy. why is it all so......pale? ewww!

Isn't pale more natural? I thought they added coloring to keep it red in the stores.

Hahah. Oh grass-fed creatures for my consumption, where art thou?

Anyway, I have homemade chicken chili for lunch, which is awes and would have been low-fat until I melted 8oz of jack cheese into the pot....

(ok so i actually had to look up "raise dental floss.")

pale sometimes means that it's fattier --> less actual flesh to make it red

and yeah, they do spruce it up a bit, but all the stuff i bought had been slaughtered recently, "just down the road."

I'm not totally sure where this argument is going. Of course animal slaughter is gross, and messy, and horrible for the animal. Is the point supposed to be that if you can watch it, you have the necessary knowledge & awareness to go on eating the meat? Or is it that if you have any compassion, you will be so moved that you will stop eating meat? (xpost)

No, Miz, something in the grass (I can't find it yet but will keep looking) translates to more hemoglobin in the cells, therefore redder meat. Or something. I'll google again.

i don't really watch what i eat. i avoid foods that make me feel ill, like mcdonald's or dairy products, but i don't think that really counts. i mostly just eat what i feel like, but that usually includes fruits and vegetables because too much of any one thing will make me sick. because i don't have dairy i find myself hungry for leafy greens for calcium. i just follow what my stomach says i need. i eat lots of cured meats, and red meats, but i don't think that's necessarily bad. they must have iron or other vitamins i need.

i did stop myself from buying bacon at the grocery store yesterday though! i already had 3 types of sausage, ground lamb, and stuff to make chicken wings so i thought it would be overkill

and i bought instant oatmeal to eat at work instead of muffins or bagels.

thinking the sight of a stuck pig is gross and icky and squirmy but then EATING THAT PIG ANYWAY EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T HAVE TO

To be fair you do have to, once you smell it cooking.

On reflection I'm probably more squeamish about drinking milk that's come from a cow's tit than having a cow's throat cut and eating its arse.

This gives me uncomfortable thoughts about your sexual preferences.

Milk is horrible stuff. Yuk. Foul.

I'm not totally sure where this argument is going. Of course animal slaughter is gross, and messy, and horrible for the animal. Is the point supposed to be that if you can watch it, you have the necessary knowledge & awareness to go on eating the meat? Or is it that if you have any compassion, you will be so moved that you will stop eating meat? (xpost)

-- Maria, Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:26 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

both, i guess? i mean, if watching animal slaughter makes you feel uncomfortable, then it seems (to me) that continuing to eat meat is a big fuck you i'm sticking my fingers in my ears and don't want to face the fact that i am wholly responsible for a pig getting its throat slit while it's hanging from the ceiling. can't have it both ways. i mean, you can, but it also means that you're irresponsible.

shoulda been a third option there at least: i munch away at everything with eyes wide shut

(i woulda voted for that)

where's Ed, anyway?

So people who don't like watching blood and gore and intestines - be it animal, human, whatever - should stop eating meat? Piffle.

All meat eaters should be required to slaughter and clean one animal in their life. Just one, that's not too much to ask. Fish don't count.

Why?

If people don't want to acknowledge the disconnect between "lalalaLALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" and livestock health, conditions, the levels of contamination, etc, well, no one can make you. But it's pretty lame. I'm not looking for a job on a ranch in Montana or anything but I truly hope that under duress I could find a way to slaughter & prepare an animal if nec to ensure human survival (mine, or poss yours).

it's not about "gore," it's about having a relationship with your food and understanding where it comes from.

I am still waiting for Jeff to explain in what circumstances processed food is better for you.

fish count because they have faces

I find cleaning fish a whole lot less palatable than cleaning animals.

xxxpost

Have you slaughtered an animal before, Kenan? Or did you go veg to avoid that?

Also, all vegs should be forced to grow and harvest their own vegetables to understand the plight of farm workers who are paid pennies.

I truly hope that under duress I could find a way to slaughter & prepare an animal if nec to ensure human survival (mine, or poss yours).

But that's not very likely to happen tho, is it?

Lest I begin to sound like Ted Nugent, the only slaughtering I have done is beheading a chicken. Which is a grim enough activity.

That does it, I want a garden and a chicken coop. Imagine the fresh eggs!

xpost
But that's not very likely to happen tho, is it?

Don't you worry about the end of the world?! (or being on a reality show out in the wilderness somewhere)

Our plans are to have a chicken coop in the future.

That said, I eat lots of meat! And I don't go to the co-op and buy the $22/lb grass-fed stuff, either. If I can get it at the grocery, I'll pay more for ethically raised chicken, eggs, etc, but I'm not haring all over NYC to find the "kindest" pork chops. But I know that it's an inconsistency in my life and I try to be mindful on a low level and make responsible choices...with the aim of moving slowly to the more accountable end of the spectrum as I find that the little changes don't hurt a bit.

xp to Tom: Probably not to me, no, but it did to my great-grandparents and they dealt with it. I'd hate to be less of a tryer than my poor Gaga who worked her fingers to the bone and came from nothing.

So people who don't like watching blood and gore and intestines - be it animal, human, whatever - should stop eating meat? Piffle.

-- Tom D., Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:38 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Yes. And you don't have to like it, you just need to own up to what eating meat entails.

What makes you think I'm not? LOL

What about the migrant farm workers?!

(I'm not being sarcastic here)

xp to Tom: Probably not to me, no, but it did to my great-grandparents and they dealt with it. I'd hate to be less of a tryer than my poor Gaga who worked her fingers to the bone and came from nothing.

Indeed. But last time I checked this was the year 2007.

Tom, are you just being devil's adv. for a rush today? Because I don't understand why the douchiness otherwise.

xp Miz, you are totally right, peeps are not aware of labor injustice as it relates to food production at all. But it's also a labor & immigrant rights issue, not really a food safety one (until e coli gets into the water supply, obv).

Or, rather, own up to the fact that if you ARE uncomfortable with gore and what have you, and still eat meat, then you are lame, a little bit cowardly, and sort of childish.

xp misery has a good point.

I don't know that much about that stuff, Mis, apart from Kingsolver novels...but I suspect the best solutions to the labor problem come from a different direction than PETA and their kvetching about slaughtering conditions.

then you are lame, a little bit cowardly, and sort of childish

Well yes, of course, but who isn't?

i am wholly responsible for a pig getting its throat slit while it's hanging from the ceiling

sry wholly responsible is a stretch here

i mean unless you killed the pig and are going to eat it all yrself

Anyone who drives a car should build at least one in their life.

Oh come off it, Tom. Is human frailty a good reason to be proud of cowardice? You're defending a mindset that is inevitable in life but also indefensible in the daily getting-up-and-getting-on-with-it of being the kind of person you'd want to be.

Holocaust? On my plate?

i've gutted a fish but that's about it.

but I suspect the best solutions to the labor problem come from a different direction than PETA and their kvetching about slaughtering conditions.

I'm speaking just from the pov of knowing where your food comes from and accepting possibly unacceptable sources for convenience's sake. It is possible to only buy locally grown produce but I imagine most people don't do this exclusively.

Anyone who drives a car should build at least one in their life.

yes, because food production is necessarily a modern, industrialized, assembly-line process that requires... oh, wait.

Oh come off it, Tom. Is human frailty a good reason to be proud of cowardice?.

Proud? Where did I say that? Or even imply that? I think you're racing ahead of me here.

i generally agree w/river wolf that the willful ignorance of the suffering our apatites inflict on animals is gross. but he is being a little literal and shrill abt it.

No, I agree, Miz...but my problem with locally grown produce is uh the Northeastern winters, and my hatred of cabbage and rutabega and squash (and winter veg in general). :)

i generally agree w/river wolf that the willful ignorance of the suffering our apatites inflict on animals is gross. but he is being a little literal and shrill abt it.

Actually so do I!

ok yeah, you're right. xp

We're all agreed! End of thread!!

"Do you watch what you eat... in its final agonizing moments?"

let's go get some bacon

my problem with locally grown produce is uh the Northeastern winters, and my hatred of cabbage and rutabega and squash (and winter veg in general). :)

My problem is the high price and the necessity of going downtown to the Whole Foods.

xpost srsly. Applewood smoked?

xxpost. . .where's that shot of the all you can eat bacon bar?

Tom, I'm just drawing out your defense of this irrational "DEDD ANIMALS LOL" position to its logical conclusion. Which is pretty much insupportable unless you want to own up to being something that I suspect most of us woudln't like to admit to. :(

Wait I'm sorry, did someone say bacon?

xxxpost

I feel in love with oysters when I realized that this little creature was fighting against my efforts to open up its little house and eat it, right up until the point where it slid down my throat.

Sorry, you have seriously lost me now! (xp)

this thread is ruining food ;_;

It's ruining my appetite

you know what's sort of amazing? i bought some smoked bacon at the farmer's market in my neighborhood - it came from a nearby farm - and it lasted like three weeks in the fridge! it didn't change color in the slightest, still smelled great, and tasted great. ?? my default assumption about stuff i get at the farmer's market is that it's fresher and more organic and will therefore spoil quicker

Just stop eating animals, K? You'll feel better about the poor little things and spend about 1/10th of the time you currently do on the shitter.

libcrypt's point is interesting. We live in an extremely specialized economy, one in which we rely on hundreds of people to do things of which we are incapable or loath. To incite people to be more aware of the origins of twhat they consume and their interconnectedness with strangers seems praiseworthy to me, but my problem with a certain piety with regard to eating meat is that dozens, nay, even hundreds of our choices and actions over the course of a day impact other living creatures, sentient or not. At least when you're part of the chain that raises, slaughters, sells and cooks a pig, say, its death means something and ironically, in a Darwinian context, were it not for our attachement to eating cows, pigs, and chickens, would they even be allowed to exist amongst us, outside of zoos or menageries?

It's ruining my appetite

heh. Diffrent strokes. It's putting me in the mood for a old-school Irish fry-up featuring organ meats, if possible.

I want the Ulysses breakfast, plz.

Hahah wait wait let's not start again on why men take SO LONG in the bathroom. There are like eight other threads for that somewhere.

im also interested in the ideal of responsibility in this situation. it seems to be quite polarized.

like if i stopped eating meat would it save any animal lives considering the huegness of our industrial farming set up - there must be more meat thrown away in a day than i'll eat in my whole life.

or if the whole world were made up of meat-eaters who would never kill an animal then no animals would be killed. the people who do kill them are taking the responsibility.

at the same time if everyone stopped eating meat then no animals would be killed.

also it just seems ridiculous to say that you have absolutely on relationship to a dead animal's death when you are eating that animal.

fascinatingly ambiguous!

Michael, voice of reason as usual! Yes, we've done these points before and Rrobyn was the best defender ever when she said YES, HONOR EVERYTHING! Because being mindful is really the beautiful key. And it's not even hard, really! I'm lazy and willful and more than a little bit sybaritic and it still works out okay.

I was not being serious when I said that everyone should kill an animal, btw. MW is right, that's not practical in the slightest, particularly for a city boy like me (or most of us).

i mean, M White is otm here. thanks for being reasonable when i am being shrill.

Just stop eating animals, K? You'll feel better about the poor little things and spend about 1/10th of the time you currently do on the shitter.

I wish I spent more time on the shitter. Well, DOING something. *sigh* :-( Ok, that wasTMI. But that said, I'm not turnng Japanese vegetarian. I don't eat much meat, but I can't live without it either. Actually I more or less did at one point. I also weighed a lot less. Maybe I should revert to said diet (of veggies, fruits, nuts, soy and yoghurt). Hmm.

i watch what i eat

michael white otm

xpost - i still stand behind HONOUR EVERTHING!

now i'm feeling bad about all the sausage i bought yesterday. sighhh

HONOUR EVERTHING

Except for mosquitos. They can fuck right off and die.

i used to love those old mr. rogers shows where we'd get to see how milk gets in bottles

they should do the same for mobile telephones, H&M underwear and gasoline - honestly it would be fascinating to me! they would of course need to show the brutal repression necessary to prop up the regimes that allow the labor exploitation that makes it all go 'round

just have a little sausage funeral before you eat 'em

now i'm feeling bad about all the sausage i bought yesterday. sighhh

honor it - maybe w/some strong mustard.

they would of course need to show the brutal repression necessary to prop up the regimes that allow the labor exploitation that makes it all go 'round

lowest rated Discovery Channel show ever.

ok so who has had vegan cheese? is it as bad as i imagine it to be?

absolutely

xxxpost

But sausage is good, bacon is good. . .

I had sausages with brown mustard last night. numm

Tracer, I've seen a couple of documentaries on PBS that follow girls working in jeans factories in China and India and the like. Did anyone see the one where they took a women who worked on track pants to a Wal-Mart to see how much the pants she worked on sold for. She cried.

No, bell, I dunno, that's what I mean, I have chix breasts and pork chops in my freezer, too! But as long as I have the ideal, the philosophy of being mindful and interconnected, in mind, my little daily decisions will tend to bend toward it in general. I am militantly NOT vegetarian, as you know :) but I'm trying to be better for the world than I am today, and tomorrow I will try again.

Michael W is my beloved professor (and GAIA member): KRUITHOF. He was such an ace professor. Said we were all too far removed from the process and hence didn't even realize half the time WHAT we are eating (when gobbling processed food).

speaking of which where is Jeff to explain how processed food is A OK

my friend Jon (a scientist!) likes to point out that it doesn't really matter HOW you get the essential nutrients, ions, vitamins, amino acids, blah blah blah that you need for metabolism, just that you get them.

he is in favor of food pills.

digestion/health-wise, i've had to face some facts that make vegetarianism v v hard for me: i realized i can't eat nuts! or tofu! or legumes in general really. at least not in quantities that provide adequate nutrition if i'm going to be a vegetarian. and i'm not going to live on cheese, even if it's organic. things get bad for me without proper protein intake, no matter how many vegetables i eat. and i eat a lot of vegetables.
this has been proven over the past 10 yrs of my life.

so yeah, the peta advertisement bothers me b/c it doesn't acknowledge that not everyone is set up to thrive on a vegetarian diet. the slaughter of animals shouldn't be an industry, that much is true. but, damn, should FOOD in general be an industry?? i don't think so. but such is our crazy world.

Ugh ugh ugh there's a vegan place in Wburg that claims to make "fast food"y things like nachos and pizza and chicken wings but ALL VEGAN, and I'm sorry, I don't buy it for a freaking second. That shit is VILE. And people have said the restaurant isn't v good in general, but not-cheese is not-cheese is not-cheese. No thank you.

i am also in favour of food pills and vat-grown meat tbh, as a way to 'ethically' feed growing world population. it is a massive issue though.

ok so who has had vegan cheese? is it as bad as i imagine it to be?

I can't even stand the thought of that.

You know what's ok, though? Vegan mayo. Makes a nice creamy deviled egg. Yes, I know, defeats the purpose.

I don't have a fetish about buying organic, but I do buy some organic products in a better-for-the-environment-and-economy kind of way and I certainly try to buy local, which, in San Francisco, isn't terribly difficult but I'm not going out of my way to condemn someone for buying flowers transported from Cent. America or berries from the Southern Hemisphere, provided they at least acknowledge that it's not optimal on several levels, the most compelling perhaps being that in order to be shipped so far, the produce is likely to be under-ripe at best, or genetically modified (including old fashioned breeding, of course) in such a way that even perfectly ripe, it's insipid.

The exploitation of the humans involved in our factory-farm systems is of at least as much concern to me as the treatment of the non-human animals. At least most of the folks who made my car could afford to buy it.

yeah sam, those docs sound good but very "worthy" - mr. rogers' approach was great because he was just all enthused about checking everything out - "hey, let's see how this is made!" - hahaha it would be something of a mood change when he arrived on the shop floor to see the local production foreman throwing vests in a girl's face as she lay sobbing on the floor because she couldn't keep up with the piecework quota

my friend Jon (a scientist!) likes to point out that it doesn't really matter HOW you get the essential nutrients, ions, vitamins, amino acids, blah blah blah that you need for metabolism, just that you get them.

he is in favor of food pills.

doesn't the science indicate that he's wrong?

food pills

OM NOM NOM NOM NOM etc

river wolf i have read very convincing stuff that the whole concept of isolatable "nutrients" has fucked up our entire understanding of eating well

xxpost

Oh food pills are so SAD. For survival, okay. For daily sustenance, why u brake haert by taking all the joy away?

not according to him.

but he's a physicist, not a chemist or biologist. i disagree with him.

but how will we evolve into hairless silver-suit wearing being if we don't start food pills now??

I loathe vegan versions of non-vegan food. If you don't want to eat something, then don't but fake hamburgers, hot dogs, cheese, etc... just make me feel queasy. It's still processed food and the reference to other foodstuffs makes me uncomfortable. That said, I have several friends who love that kind of stuff.

my friend Jon (a scientist!) likes to point out that it doesn't really matter HOW you get the essential nutrients, ions, vitamins, amino acids, blah blah blah that you need for metabolism, just that you get them.

i know we've discussed it before but michael pollan's article in the times magazine abt this was FASCINATING

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html

didnt read the omnivore's dilemma tho

my friend Jon (a scientist!) likes to point out that it doesn't really matter HOW you get the essential nutrients, ions, vitamins, amino acids, blah blah blah that you need for metabolism, just that you get them.

My understanding is that modern synthetic/semi-synthetic methods are inadequate for capturing the full range of primary nutrients (as we have identified them) along with their helper nutrients.

mmmmm.

if i could i would live on a little farm in the middle of nowhere and raise stuff and kill it and eat it all just for myself. that is kind of my hippy dream. but i know very little about agriculture and have no money to start such a venture that would be questionably sustainable so it's really not very realistic. i would not want to live on one of those cult-y organic co-op farm hippy communities though, ick. i am more interested in self-sufficiency and a remote lonely farming life in a ramshackle drafty farmhouse. i have similar fantasies of being a fisher-person. i think food does taste better when you put more time and effort into it's preparation and slaughter, nothing tastes better than a fish you caught that day.

yeah quantity over quality of food, ok, of everything, is kinda what got us into this mess
xpost

I definitely watch what I eat, partially because I'm vegetarian but mostly because I was pretty overweight several years ago and don't want to go back.

I am far from perfect. I had enchiladas last night and creme brulee ben and jerry's the night before, but I go through phases. Also, I maybe eat fast food once a year, rarely drink soda, and love fruits & veggies.

I've been vegetarian for 14 years, but I hate talking about it because it rarely seems to make any difference. Most people bring it up while they are eating meat and I'm eating my salad or what-have-you (and not the kind with a bunch of meat thrown in!). They obviously don't want to have a real conversation about it. It's more like I'm on the defensive most of the time.

I appreciate what MW said, but also I think it is important to at least try to do good. Being vegetarian is a way I can at least try to tread a little more lightly on the earth. Obviously, I still cause a lot of damage just being alive, but at least I feel like this eating choice is a lesser evil.

TH: i have, too, and agree whole-heartedly.

Metabolic pathways do not exist in isolation, and too much of one nutrient w/o a requisite amount of another can throw a lot of things out of whack.

xp

xxp bell labs i agree

I loathe vegan versions of non-vegan food.

Vegan sausages/brats are NOM NOM NOM! I eat these regularly and with relish!

If you're eating a healthy diet, there's very little need for supplements except in rare cases.

yeah quantity over quality of food, ok, of everything, is kinda what got us into this mess

:D

My understanding is that modern synthetic/semi-synthetic methods are inadequate for capturing the full range of primary nutrients (as we have identified them) along with their helper nutrients.

otm, and I also understand that the evidence that nutrients supplied outside of the foods they occur in naturally do anything at all is thin on the ground. But I still take a multivitamin every morning, just in case.

i met a handful of people out west and in NH who were doing that. little farm, hunt what's in season, etc. thing is: it requires constant labor and a willingness to do very little else.

Me too, K. From what I understand, the nutritional value of, say, a tomato, is too complex to replicate by pulling out the individual vitamins.

I loathe vegan versions of non-vegan food.

There is nothing wrong at all with the vegan ice cream that I've had - seriously good stuff.

It's more like I'm on the defensive most of the time.

OTM.

You know, if we're having a bbq night, I'm just not likely to invite my vegan/vegetarian friends unless they're really cool with seeing a bunch of carnivores gorging themeselves and if I do invite them over for a dinner party, I can make and enjoy a vegetarian meal or at least provide them with a vegetarian option. It shouldn't have to be that hard to be decent to your friends and acquaintances.

yeah quantity over quality of food, ok, of everything, is kinda what got us into this mess

So OTM.

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/cos/images/tomato.jpg

if i could i would live on a little farm in the middle of nowhere and raise stuff and kill it and eat it all just for myself. that is kind of my hippy dream.

absolutely. Excepy my hippy dream would also involve lots of solar panels to power my vast array of computer equipment. And of course I would need a large-ish satellite dish.

But I still take a multivitamin every morning, just in case.

I take one of these Whole Foods mega-super-potent vitamins every morning, which probably has some secret animal parts or something. The interesting thing is that if I forget for 3 or 4 days and then take one, my energy level shoots way up that day. Also, if I take it before bed, sometimes I stay awake until 3AM. So either it's a multi dexi-vita pill or the amount of B they contain is at psychotropical levels.

There is nothing wrong at all with the vegan ice cream that I've had - seriously good stuff.

I try not to be too judgmental about other people's tastes (De gustibus non disputandum, and all that) but I just personally don't eat much of that stuff. I rarely eat ice cream, but if I do, it has to be the real stuff or I feel cheated.

I've been vegan for about 4 or 5 years now, so I guess by default I watch what I eat. But I love vegan food, all kinds. I do eat pretty healthily, but I've found, to some extent at least, the more healthy foods you eat the less you crave unhealthy foods. So I love having oatmeal, sliced almonds, and dried fruits for breakfast, lots of salads and bean spread sandwiches for lunch, healthy grains, beans, and vegetable soups, stews and such for dinner. I love all vegan foods for the most part so I never really feel limited in what I choose to eat.

That said, there are of course greasy, delicious vegan foods that I indulge in here and there. Fried tofu is incredible I crave it often.

my hippy farmhouse dream also involves rooms filled with unweildy analogue synthesizers that probably need to be dusted. and lots of barn cats.

mine has a painting/musics studio and a massive bike/ski/climbing workshop/gear whore paradise.

Also, as gross as some vegan cheese can be (though I've grown to enjoy it, and believe me, they're trying to make it better), I have to find it a little funny when people find the idea of it repulsive -- like, you're okay with old, solidified, curdled breast milk from a cow raised in pretty gross, industrialized settings, but not with some fermented soy beans (yea i know vegan cheese is pretty processed, but still..)? How is vegan cheese any more repulsive than cow's cheese? Same goes for vegan "mock meats" -- why is the idea of processed vegetable protein any more repulsive than the carcass of animal that was raised and killed in some pretty gross conditions? I'm not trying to preach a moral pint, I just don't understand that reasoning.

On a side note, just out of curiosity (I'm not trying to make any vegan anti-dairy argument here, just curious is all), would any of y'all try whale cheese? They lactate, right? Human cheese? How about orangutan cheese? Gorilla cheese is supposed to be a delicacy.... it can be done, right?

*moral "point", not pint of course

Just out of curiosity, how does a moral pint taste? xp haha

xposts
niiiceeee
And how about tall flowers shooting up all over the yard?

i have always sort of wanted to try whale steak :-/

damn good -- i guess a moral pint would just be an organic microbrew, right? microbrews are usually delicious

xpost

just a bite!

I'm sure other-animal cheeses can be done! I'm fond of goat's and sheep's cheese, for instance. I think the further you get from being LIKE cows, though, the more the resulting products won't taste like "cheese" at all. Which is exactly what's so offputting about soy cheese, that the taste and feel are so NOT fulfilling as a substitute.

I have to find it a little funny when people find the idea of it repulsive

I think it's the taste they find repulsive rather than the idea

Mark, it's totally irrational in my case or mostly so. My best friend's parents, when I was a kid, were SDA and they tried to eat healthy by eschewing meat but came from an esthetic background where sausage and bacon and ham and whatnot were the norm and the stuff so grossed me out (esp in comparison to my aunt's vegetarian food) that ever since it just makes me wretch.

old, solidified, curdled breast milk from a cow raised in pretty gross, industrialized settings

Your point is taken but I eat mostly cheese that's decidedly not industrial.

organic food is so dud it's unbelievable

well, some ppl get weird about vegans eating "substitute" products. like, if you're so against it, why are faking it? shouldn't you be above wanting cheese-like and meat-like things at all?? which doesn't hold a lot of water, really.

soy cheese is just soy cheese. seitan is just wheat gluten. also....delicious??

I have to find it a little funny when people find the idea of it repulsive

I think it's the taste they find repulsive rather than the idea

fair enough, and that's probably the case with most people.

Soy cheese tastes exactly like individually-wrapped processed "real" American cheese slices. So there.

I'd probably eat soy cheese before American cheese slices.

AGREED

i just never want to give up pizza, is the thing

well, some ppl get weird about vegans eating "substitute" products. like, if you're so against it, why are faking it? shouldn't you be above wanting cheese-like and meat-like things at all?? which doesn't hold a lot of water, really.

yeah, most vegans who do it for ethical reasons (I put myself in this camp) wouldn't say that meat or cheese tastes bad, at all. meat and cheese taste great, which is why vegans have gone at lengths (some more successfully than others) to make substitutes.

OH YEAH xp haha no laboratory cheese products for me, thanks!

Cheese (real, not American) is the reason I can never be vegan.

ok i have a question for a vegan: if i go into the woods and track and shoot an animal (let's say nugent style), is that cool?

i mean, obviously it isn't, but is that marginally more acceptable?

It's not really "exploitation", per se. It's just COLD BLOODED MURDER YOU ROCKIST!

well yeah, but i was hungry

I have way more of a problem with omnivores being squeamish about cheese and making plastic cheese 'products' than with vegans making substitute foods. The vegan is, at least, perfectly conscious of what they're eating and why, whereas the processed cheese eater really just shouldn't be eating cheese.

I suppose if you killed the Bambi with yr guitar, then it'd be OK, tho.

One thing I like about rednecks is that sometimes they come over bringing gifts of wild venison to stuff your freezer with.

Cheese (real, not American) is the reason I can never be vegan.

I've been vegan for 6 months or something and I've gone from being a total cheese fiend to feeling a bit queasy at the thought in just that short time. Part of that is making the mental connection with what's involved in the production of it; part of it is standing back and thinking what a weird concept that whole congealed blob of fat is.

Cheese (real, not American)

haha Yeah, you guys have cheese in a tube, no? You guys are so crazy.

what if i like bury its heart and say a prayer and then make slippers and a pair of trousers.

xp agreed! kenan

I suppose if you killed the Bambi with yr guitar, then it'd be OK, tho.

WITH THE POWER OF YOUR ROCKING

SQUIBBLEDY-DOO!

i could talk about food all day :-/

and farms in the mountains

What about if you breed an animal that actually wants to be eaten, and is capable of saying so?

kenan OTM re: venison

haha Yeah, you guys have cheese in a tube, no? You guys are so crazy.

Dude, we have cheese in a SPRAY CAN.

ok i have a question for a vegan: if i go into the woods and track and shoot an animal (let's say nugent style), is that cool?

No, that is not cool. It's not like you need to kill this animal to live, so why do it? For fun?

Dan: Then you're probably having shmoo for dinner.

part of it is standing back and thinking what a weird concept that whole congealed blob of fat is.

yeah but surely you could do that with any food. Like saying a word over and over until it sounds strange.

What about if you breed an animal that actually wants to be eaten, and is capable of saying so?

Wait, wasn't this already tried in Germany a few years ago? The guy who wanted to be killed & eaten, etc.?

D- on art project concept homework for today.

ok i have a question for a vegan: if i go into the woods and track and shoot an animal (let's say nugent style), is that cool?

I'm not sure, I mean obviously I think it's not cool but... in one sense I'd rather you do that than complicitly and lazily go along with the pretty horrible meat industry. Kind of what was said upthread, at least you would be more connected to the process and it would perhaps make you more in touch with the fact that eating meat = killing an animal, which, strangely enough, most people aren't that in touch with. I think if more people had to hunt for meat they might be less likely to eat meat. Not sure though, really....that's just speculation of course

Soy cheese tastes exactly like individually-wrapped processed "real" American cheese slices.

this is retarded even w/o mentioning the consistency

Dude, we have cheese in a SPRAY CAN.

G. uses this to bait rat traps.

xxxxxpost

But if you are in a forest you can't just live on twigs and berries. Humans need protein.

Humans are not herbivores. The modern world makes it so that you can live this way but I do not think history and biology support this. *prepares to be proven wrong*

Dude, we have cheese in a SPRAY CAN.

hahah Yeah! I forgot all about that. I saw it in a supermarket somewhere in Hawaii and could not stop laughing.

thanks!

xp i have used spray can cheese to attract groupers when snorkeling

it's the good stuff fish go for

xxxx post or something

on the other hand, putting the killing right up there in your face by killing it yourself seems worse than halfmindedly going along with the meat industry.

yeah but surely you could do that with any food. Like saying a word over and over until it sounds strange.

Well, yes. But cheese is stranger than an apple, no matter what right? I mean, the whole obtaining milk from another species is weird to start off with. That doesn't seem to occur anywhere else in nature AFAIK. And then processing it and letting it go a bit rancid and a bit crusty, hmmm - who the heck came up with that?

A fucking genius.

Um what about coffee!! The sheer number and unlikely-ness of the steps between bush and drink make it seem like a miracle that the idea ever took off. Or chocolate, for that matter.

xxp The same kind of person that figured out simple machines and tools.

Ok, this thread going towards veg vs. meat does suck now.

But if you are in a forest you can't just live on twigs and berries. Humans need protein.

Yeah, but you could get protein from nuts and pulses and there's smaller amounts in lots of other vegetables.

oh come on -- you can go ahead and still eat your cheese and still acknowledge that it's pretty screwed up to have all these weird ways of getting the milk from the cow's teat, milk which is really just meant for calves.

sorry guys :-/

Um what about coffee!!

I think people even now chew the fruit of the coffee plant for the high, just like peeps grab blackberries offa the vine on the roadside. Except that blackberries don't get you high.

xxxpost

What if there aren't any nut trees in that forest? Hunger would force you to avail yourself of whatever food presented itself. (Also can't think of what pulses are. Been many years since I was veg.

People have been buying meat that someone else had killed for a long time now, it's not that modern an innovation

yea i've discussed the veg vs meat thing enough, i can stop

Um what about coffee!! The sheer number and unlikely-ness of the steps between bush and drink make it seem like a miracle that the idea ever took off. Or chocolate, for that matter.

I think it's the mouldy lactation bit that is uniquely weird to me.

If anything, civilization, with its reliance on agriculture is the novelty with regard to human diet.

I think it's the mouldy lactation bit that is uniquely weird to me.

'The Cooked and the Raw'! The sheer variety of 'weird' food eaten by humans in almost every clime and terrain is pretty cool, I think.

agreed!

Um what about coffee!! The sheer number and unlikely-ness of the steps between bush and drink make it seem like a miracle that the idea ever took off.

Let's add a step to the process and have a cup of Kopi Luwak!

people tend to make do with what they have, and sometimes it ends up tasting pretty good

People in being clever when hungry shocker.

We should all switch to an insect-based diet.

You're staring at your food like it's a word. Keep staring long enough, and it will look unbearably weird.

Tom: big difference between trading yr labor for meat that's killed/prepared by a member of yr community according to methods that everyone is basically familiar with (it's visible, done in public, and so on) and having the work, and the standards of the job, basically outsourced to groups you have v little control over (or familiarity with) and accepting their output unquestioningly, which, like it or not, is the position of most Americans I am 100% positive.

mmm insects! I've been watching a lot of "Survivorman" lately.

http://eathongkong.com/images/insects%20close%20up.jpg

OM NOM NOM NOM

The sheer variety of 'weird' food eaten by humans in almost every clime and terrain is pretty cool, I think.

East Asia easily has this contest locked up tighter'n Bessie's head-vice.

this is the VEAL of insect cuisine:

http://www.mondaymorningmuse.com/archive3/maggots.jpg

We should all switch to an insect-based diet.

You first, Misery. (Btw, is it true you love company?)

I only eat things with a backbone

man insect cuisine is slowing down a previously bumpin' thread

xxpost

Not really, I am a loner.

I think I'd rather just eat grass if that's okay.

sorry for the gross images

i would like to watch someone make some food for me right now

and then i would eat that food

I'm going to do that soon.

omg laurel i have also been watching survivorman!!

and yeah re: not having to kill an animal in the wild to live and eating berries and nuts really doesn't work in the canadian north, for humans anyway

i learned that from survivorman

No supermarkets there then?

i am eating right now

watch it!

omg laurel i have also been watching survivorman!!

me three. I still kinda miss Man vs. Wild, though.

dude i am talking about fucking surviving in the wild if you have to
xpost

the food is coming from inside the thread

supermarkets are some pretty messed up places really

it was a pita with feta, mixed greens, prosciutto. washed down with tomato juice.

What's all this stuff about "surviving in the wild if you have to" - YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE TO!

im about to eat some: apple + cheddar

OTM tom

i tried to build a fire in a supermarket once and it just wouldn't light and i was cold

you might have to
xpost

i'm about to eat too:

penne w/ chickpeas, zucchini, diced tomatoes, rosemary

I saw Man vs Wild yesterday and was unimpressed -- because the first thing he did was go "Let me check my rabbit snares -- NOPE! didn't catch anything last night! But here I have a rabbit to show you what to do just in case you can catch one." I was like THAT'S CHEATING.

some nice salad greens too

And meanwhile the guy's all pomaded and British-accented and and clearly had a nice hot shower this morning.

Okay I made that up, I don't know if he had a nice shower. But the "bonus rabbit" thing was bonkers.

also i was responding to the thing way upthread re: having to kill an animal in the woods to feed oneself, was i not
xpost

salad greens have all kinds of issues
i'm serious

i have told this before but:

a friend of mine stopped being vegetarian after like 14 years or something when, in the course of a hike that accidentally ballooned from 7 miles to 20 miles (or something to that effect), she split a turkey sandwich with her friend cuz that's all they had.

xp rrrobyn o_O

unless they are wild/organic mesclun mix, salad greens take waaay more water and fertilizer to grow than like anything else on a farm

ah so

Hahah my vegetarian friend just biked across the US from New York to Montana on a lark and she was like "DUDE being veg lasted like three days, I needed me some CALORIES and we were in The Heartland."

but y'know, we have to pick our battles here
e.g., i'd eat locally grown greenhouse lettuce or whatever before i'd eat fruit & veg shipped from mexico
xpost

omg laurel i have also been watching survivorman!!

We catch both on occasion just to laugh b/c it's ridiculous. Last G. was telling him if he had taken some paragliding lessons he wouldn't have had to walk down a mile mountain jungle to a better spot.

Also, talk to that dude who chewed off his arm to escape the rock he was pinned under while hiking. (Well maybe he just sawed it off with a pocket knife but I bet he was eating anything that came within reach in the meantime)

SURVIVORMAN IN THE HEARTLAND!

a friend of mine stopped being vegetarian after like 14 years or something when, in the course of a hike that accidentally ballooned from 7 miles to 20 miles (or something to that effect), she split a turkey sandwich with her friend cuz that's all they had.

That's all about bad planning that is. Besides, couldn't they have just eaten the bread? You don't need extra protein on a 20 mile walk, you just need carbs.

i am srsly about to go to the grocery store! i am afraid
and so hungry

unless they are wild/organic mesclun mix

glad that that's what I got :)

but do they really take more water/resources (and contribute more waste, for that matter), than all those damn pigs/cows/chickens??? I'd find it hard to believe, though admittedly I've only worked on a small organic farm that was quite different of course from the modern industrial farm.

I was like THAT'S CHEATING.

well, he's been appropriately busted, hopefully there will be no more of that.

Survivorman is a little too real sometimes. Like the episode where he's in a rubber raft on the open ocean. He just looks depressed. I mean, I would be, too!

nickb you know nothing about nutrition

i exagerate
but still

i don't think he ate anything. also, yeah, sawed it off.

NickB the point is that she was HUNGRY. And, yeah, duh, it was bad planning. It was an anecdote, about how sometimes people throw out rigid dietary beliefs in favor of holy shit i am in the middle of nowhere and am hungry.

one more thing about Survivorman and I'll shut up about it. It's interesting to watch how he shoots the video. It's not just surviving, there's some filmmaking involved, too. It's like an art project, Grizzly Man-style.

So then she stopped being vegetarian? Like, was the turkey sandwhich THAT good?

Holy crap, Nick, it doesn't WORK like that!! Carbs are not substitute for slow-burning protein you need for endurance/survival, and they will DEFINITELY not rebuild the muscle fibers you desperately need. Plus bad planning wtf, you cannot CARRY enough food to get across the country on a bike. Not an option AT ALL.

I mean, now you're just being obtuse.

nickb you know nothing about nutrition

Haha sure, but I'll stick by what I wrote. I've done 20 mile runs and had nothing more than energy gels to keep me going. You don't suddenly run out of protein in the middle of a hike.

you know sarah, the way she tells it it was like "huh. not bad!" *shrug* and that was that.

she's been veg since she was a child, so had never really thought rationally about her decision, i think. now she loves steak, and has like ten pounds of alaskan moose burger in her freezer.

xp like i said, nick, it had more to do with being HUNGEE. yes, she could have taken the meat off, she didn't. the end.

Misery, I think my guy would say the same thing abt Survivor man w/r/t specialized skills...but then MOST people who might end up with their ATV breaking down on a daytrip or whatever wouldn't have those skills either, and unfortunately you can't just impart them as information, you have to have EXPERIENCE. Wd be SO MUCH fun if you could, like, read a story about sky-diving and then be good to go...but alas it is not the way.

She could have stopped at a grocery store, amirite? (the biker)

but yeah, you're right: i know people that have done unbelieveable shit in the mountains with little more than gels and tea.

What are these gels?

Carbs are not substitute for slow-burning protein you need for endurance/survival, and they will DEFINITELY not rebuild the muscle fibers you desperately need. Plus bad planning wtf, you cannot CARRY enough food to get across the country on a bike

A bike? On a hike? Eh? On a walk, you'd mostly be burning fat, not protein.

Hahhaha oh Sarah, they did! But a lot of the towns they rode through didn't HAVE their own grocery stores, and convenience stores in South Dakota not really known for nutritional selection...?

gels and tea

Gone all Bertie Wooster here

like i said, nick, it had more to do with being HUNGEE. yes, she could have taken the meat off, she didn't. the end

Ah no, I didn't want to make a big thing of it, I was just saying what I'd have done.

http://www.gusports.com/

xp no worries.

also, i'm trying to remember my metabolic pathway stuff here, but: the body, ideally, runs entirely on glucose. other energy sources can do in a pinch, but the body will try and make them INTO glucose if it can. this is because (a) it's pretty efficient and (b) the brain runs on NOTHING BUT glucose. hence, low blood sugar = dumb and groggy.

OKay, so glucose is our friend for immediate energy...but why do people hiking the AT crave peanut butter and steak and not, say, nectarines?

I've been vegetarian for 14 years, but I hate talking about it because it rarely seems to make any difference . . . They obviously don't want to have a real conversation about it. It's more like I'm on the defensive most of the time.

Completely OTM. I've been a vegetarian for 16 years and couldn't agree with this more.

Also, way at the beginning someone asked if I could shed light on the whole raw veg being healthier than cooked veg. Dude, I said I worked in the Nutrition dept at Harvard, I never said I was a nutritionist! I am intrigued though - I'll see if I can dig something up.

so, most of the time, you're taking glycogen (long-chain glucose), and breaking it down and chucking the constituent glucose molecules into glycolysis and eventually the citric acid cycle. when you run out of glucose, though, you start trying for other sources. the liver can perform gluconeogenesis, which actually produces glucose (for the brain), but you don't get very much ATP (the "energy" molecule) out of it. so, we start breaking down fatty acids next, and then protein.

xp to self

you crave that stuff because fat is pretty efficient long-term storage of energy. like, i think that even the way the molecule is shaped actually translates to more space-efficient storage than, say, glycogen chains.

christ i learned all this just a few months ago and it's already going.

Okay, thanks! What about repair of tissues under repeated exercise, ie a daily regimen of 20 miles walked or 100 miles biked for, say, three weeks?

however, according to my biochem prof (who was awesome, and crazy smart): the average american diet provides us with WAY too much protein. like, most of it goes to waste.

spare me your medical mumbo jumbo

nah im kidding

well, the thing to remember is that food can provide (a) raw material for tissue repair and (b) the energy necessary to enact those repairs. i never got into the physiology of muscle repair, so i can't speak to that.

i do know, however, that by and large, most of the protein the average person consumes goes straight into their pee pee

most of the protein the average person consumes goes straight into their pee pee

i don't know where it goes, but my understanding is that the kidneys should be taking OUT the protein, that's one of their functions, and protein in your urine is a cause for concern.

That is so sad, I love protein. xp

the proteins you get from animals are only useful for spare parts: we want their amino acids, right? because that way we can use those in our own protein synthesis (some of which will end up as muscle fiber, some as other stuff). moreover, animals have the "essential" amino acids, which are those that our body can't produce. then again, so does a plate of beans and rice. so an athlete that is ripping up their muscles all the time might need more than the average person's intake of "protein" (actually amino acids), but the source is irrelevant. and if you eat steaks all the time, most of those AAs are superfluous, and get turned into urea more urea means more peeing, which leads to dehydration. apparently vegetarians are less likely to be dehydrated (according to prof).

iron is a concern, however.

proteins get broken down in a bunch of different places. some are broken down in yr saliva (if i recall correctly), others elsewhere.

i'm enjoying this, it's like a fun lesson in health class

ah i see. The not-protein-anymore is what's in your urine.

i can just see the image of the athlete, running, and it zooms in on his/her abdomen and then shows a diagram of the proteins being broken down

This has changed from "Do you watch what you eat?" thread to a "Do you understand what you eat?" one

NB i'm probably screwing up some details, perhaps some important ones.

well, watching i guess means "caring to understand."

At best I spose it's the same thing. xxxp

xpost not always. It could just mean counting calories or something superficial like that.

or WANTING to understand.

counting calories is sort of dumb.

HOW MANY HEAT UNITS ARE BEING PRODUCED BY THIS FOODS

i find the idea of cheese so much less gross than the idea of the squirmy things pictured above! which is kind of a reminder that food - be it vegan cheese, squirmy things, or a hunk of steak - is not *objectively* appetizing or disgusting based on what it is made out of or where it came from. (big xpost!)

I've never counted calories in my life and have virtually no idea of how many calories foods have. I'm okay with that. I've always been very thin and have had a high metabolism, and being vegan, I think it's a good thing for me to eat as much as I want so long as it's healthy and balanced. I eat a lot, and I don't think I need to keep track of calories.

i don't think counting calories is stupid, basically because the main reason i gain weight is not being careful of the amounts i eat and counting calories has helped me figure out how to adjust that and lose said weight. obviously it's not the only thing one should pay attention to in nutrition - like, 2000 calories of ice cream a day is not a balanced adult diet - but for people like me who for whatever reason don't have a great sense of how much is enough to get through until the next meal or snack but not too much, it does make sense. (annoying though!)

yeah, nutritional calories are not units of energy, but are converted based upon standard tables according to energy density... i don't understand it, honestly.

b/c it is based on weird politically motivated science

i think that as more scientific discoveries are made concerning interactions on the molecular level - esp re: "epigenetics" - we're going to see a lot of rethinking about how the body processes everything that goes into it, food or otherwise, and just how much this process can actually vary from person to person

i mean, certainly energy goes in and 'calories are burned' and etc, but there are so many other factors to consider that it def causes me concern to prescribe the same diet guidelines to everyone. e.g., classic food pyramid works for some, doesn't work for others

plus all the psychological, social, cultural issues around food

it is all freaking fascinating

i am totally eating chocolate and drinking coffee right now
lol both of them are organic

how are calories politically motivated?

this sort of outlines a bit of what i mean
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/pyramids.html

oh ok, yeah. The foods themselves are in contention, not necessarily the calories. Unless the calories are "empty."

what i also mean is that i'm skeptical of calories being the 'baseline' of nutrition

*snore*

and also, science research - what/who gets funded, what/who doesn't - is crazy political!
but that's a dif topic
xpost

it is interesting to me

I used the website "the daily plate" to count my calories and ended up losing 50lbs in 4 and a half months. I think the counting worked since it made me realize that my diet was atrocious and that I needed to cut back on some stuff (take out food/beer/sweets) and increase other stuff (mainly fruits and vegetables). This was also coupled with working out 4 times a week.

xpost

want to see more insects. Or better yet, people eating insects.

protein in your urine is a cause for concern.

Esp if you are pregnant.

(Uh, you not as in YOU KENAN or I'd be worried about you being pregnant.)

d'oh where did my " ;) j/k " to rrobyn go?

haha it's cool

Speaking of calorie-counting, does anyone remember Richard Simmons' "Deal A Meal" infomercials?

hah, "shmoo for dinner" upthread was brilliant

I am still waiting for Jeff to explain in what circumstances processed food is better for you.

Sorry Kenan, I was just trolling. No explanations from me! lollercaust.

I'm the least fussy eater I know and I've started to take a peculiar pride in it. I appreciate moral issues around meat eating but other food neuroses seem a little unhealthy and ascetic to me. I want to say yes to all food.

Except beetroot obviously that fucking stinks.

Humans are not herbivores. The modern world makes it so that you can live this way but I do not think history and biology support this. *prepares to be proven wrong*

I know this is from way upthread, but I think this ('modern world' sentence) is kind of the point for a lot of ethical eater types. It is for me at least. I don't know that there are very many people who seriously believe it is never, under any circumstance, permissible to eat animals. And certainly the stories of 'long-time veg has moment of weakness in time of uncertainty' kind of attest to this. Like ppl who are rly hungry are gonna eat what's available. But as for history not supporting it, I think we're (obv a certain geographic space here) in a time with no historical precedence: abundance without a foreseeable threat of shortage. And as for biology, I dunno, ppls mileage may vary, I've managed to keep healthy levels of all the bugaboo (iron, b12, calcium, protein) nutrients for the last 4 years. I ain't no doctor or nothing though.

Uh, to actually answer the question, when I watch what I eat, I usually watch it all go right into my mouth. I guess just as a matter of course I avoid a lot of unhealthy shit, but I am basically at the same level of discretion I was at 5 years and 75 pounds ago, new diet notwithstanding. I kinda resent implications that vegans are ascetic food-hatahs (not that anyone is saying that here) cos I can eat my own weight in groceries, but I rly prolly shouldn't.

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