Hey Baby, Your Brain Is Really Turning Me On....

2) Not very far at all. I assume it puts people off.

Fabulous Looks alone, no intelligence, humour etc = c.80% appeal.

Proven by science, etc.

What was that three adjective thing you described me as recently , the pinefox?

OK, it doesn't include any humour, but it still leaves you the most illegible bachelor in town.

or

ii) I am just very shallow.

iii) You are trying to find *another* excuse to quote Morrissey's "Complainining / 'Women only like for for my mind'".

Why would your looks need validation? I don't think they do. You must have spent your life being told how tasty you are.

C'mon Nick, surely your mum told you you were great. Even the Elephant Man's mum thought he was handsome.

I don't think that's a culturally familiar model of attraction, at least for women.

I had an long dream about you last night, Ellie, btw.

Emma - no, I don't remember my mum ever saying that. Or if she ever did I just ignored it as the kind of thing mums say. Oh hang on - she did once say that our neighbour thought I looked like Michael J. Fox, but I don't know if she or the neighbour fancied Michael J. Fox or not. I don't look like Michael J. Fox anyway.

Nick I think you should tell us more about your cruel mother and the way she rejected you as a child. Were you breast fed? Even my mum occasionally manages to come out with nice comments.

(Micheal J Fox!?)

I don't think boys get as many 'you're beautiful' comments from their parents as girls, Emma. It's not the societal norm for men to feel the need for such validation. That's what Morrissey was getting at in that line.

I'm not bitter or anything is what I'm trying to say I guess. I suspect Nick might be right about it being a girl thing.

(This morning I watched back some video shot of me, and I appear to be unfeasibly cute (NB I think I look rubbidge in the mirror). What gives?)

As a meta question which would you rather be complimented on?

Being intelligent/funny or being beautiful? I may be in need of brain medicine but I kind of think I'd rather be told I was intelligent or funny. I mean it's interesting because if you're with someone you presume they think you're good looking anyway. So if they tell you you're intelligent can you take it as a double success type thing? Or are they simply saying "hey I didn't like you, but you came out with some smart bullshit and it worked". In which case you've triumphed also, just in a slightly odd way.

I don't know. I need a lie down.

This touches on a big, big question for me. In your experience, do people who are going out with someone think that their partner is the most gorgeous in the world? And if not, how would you take it if someone said "Well, obviously you're not as fit as Johnny Depp/Kate Moss, but I fancy you enough so don't worry"? And what if instead of Depp/Moss you said someone you both knew? Obviously if would be very insensitive, but is it sad that people can't tell the truth?

It covers all bases and has an 'I am under your spell' vibe to it.

Does this make sense? I realise it's blaming men a lot but what the heck.

From my experience I'd say that while I may not necessarily think the person I'm with is The Most Gorgeous, the fact that I actually know them and presumably like / love them makes a hell of a difference.

So what you're saying is keep such thoughts/words under wraps at first and then review the situation a few weeks/months into the relationship and if you still think other people are more gorgeous then perhaps it's time to call it a day?

The most traditionaly good looking bloke (six pack, square jaw - *really* not what I usually find attractive) I have ever slept with was also the world's most shallow man. And arrogant and generally boring. And therefore not attractive.

BUT don't abandon it, N, your posts on this thread have been stimulating and grate.

This is terribly vague, but sometimes something just clicks and you find yourself so attracted to someone that you feel like you are fizzing and can't contain it all and if you pointed your finger sparks would shoot out.

Nick, I think my constant nagging you for arrogance merely comes from the odd daydreamy thread you punt out here questioning how others see yourself. This is of course something that all of us indulge in but only you punt them out here so I just rip the piss. Sorry.

I am very very rarely physically attracted to people at all, and only really start to fancy people when I have chatted to them. By then however I fear they do not physically like me and hence have moved to the mates level that Ronan mentions above - while I start fancying them. This is probably due to a low self esteem in thinking I am particularly unattractive which is exacerbated by self depreciating humour.

>>> "As a meta question which would you rather be complimented on? Being intelligent/funny or being beautiful?"

The point is, any idiot can be intelligent and funny. Beauty is the simple thing, so hard to achieve.

So Nicky D was right all along.

The second question? *thinks* I don't think I ever did anything more publicly dramatic that a crushworthy statement of affection in the school paper's Valentine's personals in tenth grade. Oddly enough I was not laughed at.

The love of my live was cute, but, to be ruthlessly objective, not that cute. What really clinched it for me really was the humor and intelligence.

I've never really had to work to get someone's attention. I mean if looking at someone and smiling doesn't work, you walk over and say hi. If that doesn't work, I just forget about it.

this is the second thread in two days that has deeply offended me

Might help if you explained why.

Are you seriously defining Kate Moss as "fit"? Her waif look drove many girls (through the 80 and 90's) to discover the joys of purging.

Bring on death, then, if she's the idol of health....

Is she working so much anymore, now that she looks more human, and less like a stick?

Tee-hee.

Well, I find it quite hard to find. I, personally, cannot fancy someone until I know that they have a good sense of humor. I live in fear that I think I am somewhat intelligent and funny but that I will be the only one who will ever think so.

Being intelligent/funny or being being beautiful?***

Ronan, depends on how shallow I'm feeling that morning;>

Seriously though, I was always used to being complimented on my intelligence or my wit, since that's something that I never had to work hard at.

Up to 3 years ago, I'd have suspected you were up to something, if you called me beautiful. Now, I've learned to accept a compliment......

Course, there have been very few who actually _fit_ the criteria..;>

Dave Q? Could be.

2. Furthest I went to gain someone's attention? I looked directly into his eyes and spoke. You can only go so far for mankind.

--

I forgot how the meta question was phrased exactly, but I'd rather be complimented on my beauty than on my mind. I've had enough validation about my intelligence, but sometimes I'm still dreadfully insecure about my looks. By the time I reached 30 I figured out that I wasn't too bad-looking, but I still feel pretty down about my looks. The thing is, I know that it's a mental thing; I know that changing my physical appearance will probably have little effect on my unlovely attitude.

Oddly enough, I am not attracted to conventionally good-looking people. They scare me because I suspect that they're vapid and painfully boring company. No offense to my friends who happen to be good-looking ; ) I'm attracted to average-looking to interestingly ugly folks with incredible minds and personalities. So-called ugliness is rather attractive to me because it's unusual in my milieu (I live in Los Angeles). "There is no excellent beauty which not hath some strangeness in the proportion." -- Frank Pork

No, it took me much longer than that. Anyways, that rhyme is too obvious for him.

I'd say I'm probably most attracted to those similarly in balance? One major trait that is *crucial* but that is usually left out of talks like these for some reason, is compassion. The person can be the smartest, funniest, best looking ever, but if they're cold - it just won't do.

*Spot on, Kim. You are certainly correct. Beauty or intelligence w/o compassion is like banana sundaes sans chocolate sauce. Some of the better folks I'm friends with caught my attention simply cause they had a big heart.*

But - to relate this to the thread - on what basis did I want them to fall for me? Not looks, because I found that idea laughable (cf insecurities above). Which left humour and intelligence. So to answer question one: I try and rely on humour and intelligence because I'm terribly afraid it's always other. And to answer question two: conquering my shyness, starting writing, setting up a website and web community, and all of it to get the attention of someone who might not even exist and whose attention I did not actually want.

Since conquering shyness, writing, and setting up this site are all in varying degrees good things I feel a little bit better about being a prick, too.

I wouldn't worry about it. I think this is a very common feeling.

Sean's tales of easy love always make me feel sad. I think I look just as good as him, but that damned mother didn't drum it into me and now I've slept on it I realise that this really has had a terrible effect on me. I'm sure I could temper the attendant arrogance somehow.

Yes I suspect it is. I just wish something rather more edifying was providing my primary motivation for doing things.

No-one can objectivley say what an individual is like. Even your view of yourself is subjective. To define yourself you rely on either the certainty that your perception of you is right, or, for those with less belief, you want to collect as many positive external definitions of you to work with.

Well, maybe to 'judge' their whole character, yes, but we're talking about fancying people here. Oh, hang on, I've just remembered you think it is shallow to only go out with people you fancy. You win on moral upstandingness.

The occasional knock backs I have been given have all been physical, which is the one thing I can do nothing about.

Pete I do resent the idea that you seem to think I'm Little Miss Shallow for only SHAGGING people I fancy. It's really not that unusual, in fact I'd say it was fairly common. The thing is we all fancy different people / types and that is what makes it all so great. Or not.

I think in hindsight, I've taken any knockbacks from the past quite well. I sort of dug my head in the sand for about a year or two and then since I started college stuff just happened itself.

By contrast, what do I find attractive in a woman? Looks over compassion over intelligence/humour. I AM Shallow Hal, I guess.

The thing is we all fancy different people / types and that is what makes it all so great. Or not.

but also:

maybe if you were extremely beautiful / handsome (whichever word you want to use to describe male good lookingness) you would maybe attach more importance to it as you realise the benefits (not just for pulling stunning women but in other areas)

Of course the truth is somewhere between the two. Although I would like to chip in to say that being considered good-looking by a large proportion of the female population isn't really that well correlated with success in pulling lots of women. It's all about confidence, innit. Or at least that's the biggest single factor, according to my extensive field research. Both in terms being an attractive trait in itself and of course because'duh, if you don't ask you don't get - put up with a low hit rate if you're overall hits are high'.

Emma sez:

The thing is we all fancy different people / types and that is what makes it all so great. Or not.

but also:

maybe if you were extremely beautiful / handsome (whichever word you want to use to describe male good lookingness) you would maybe attach more importance to it as you realise the benefits (not just for pulling stunning women but in other areas)

Of course the truth is somewhere between the two. Although I would like to chip in to say that being considered good-looking by a large proportion of the female population isn't really that well correlated with success in pulling lots of women. It's all about confidence, innit. Or at least that's the biggest single factor, according to my extensive field research. Both in terms being an attractive trait in itself and of course because'duh, if you don't ask you don't get - put up with a low hit rate if you're overall hits are high'.

I mean I don't know how physically attractive I am, but fuck it I have no problem with people not wanting a relationship with me based on them not being attracted to me. That is to say I'm not suggesting I look down on all these people I'm not attracted to, it's not my fault who I fancy or don't, or even what my criteria for fancying someone are.

I know this is a minor reason for my view on relationships, and certainly another burning reason why I have not been in one for a long time is I have had no burning desire to. Also one mind set may work for you (ie shagging only what you fancy) and may not hold for someone else. (I think I remember pushing this conversation once to discover a split between visual and literal brain types - but that's all getting a bit off topic).

one person's alpha male is another person's Greek alphabet soup

Yes, this can happen, but Emma's first comment about good-looking men being able to be greedy and arrogant surely suggests that STATISTICALLY people's judgements beauty tend to cluster around certain people. Or are you suggesting that Brad Pitt has just been completely arbitarily chosen as a fine example of the male form?

That said I think its a little bit too idealistic to say that because peoples view of attractiveness vary that this necessarily leads to the utopian situation that everyone is attractive to someone (not to mention the need it would appear for this to be reciprocal). Not to mention the influence of societal and cultural norms on what you find attractive.

- at least agree in disagreeing somewhat with the assumptions built into the way N. and Emma and Ronan see this - that 'attracted to' is coterminous with 'is physically attractive to me' = 'is (in my subjective terms) physically attractive'. ANd all of you at some point make a distinction between some mysterious sexual factor x and just liking/loving someone 'as a friend'. So the two problems I have are i) the way that attractiveness inevitably shades into (purely/only) physical attractivess at some point (and at that point the attraction you want to think of as purely personal/instinctive inevitably gets mangled up with wider social/cultural factors) and ii) I think that liking someone and wanting someone aren't that separable in principle (although most of us mainly do a good job at separating them in practice most of the time).

A lot of this is down to the fact that, again like Pete, although I might feel that someone is lovely just by looking at them, and feel attracted to them in passing, I generally won't ever really want to fuck someone until or unless I feel like there's something between us, and this'll usually be co-constructed in talk, at which point their physical attractiveness or otherwise will always already be animated by the aspects of the person I think they are. I'd like to think there's something in the inevitable relationship between what someone looks like and how they inhabit their looks that accounts for attraction, I think.

[I like to hand out the 10,000 word version of these observations to the other party before getting involved, just to make sure everything's crystal clear, by the way].

a) I have no control over who I fancy.
b) Therefore I have no control over who I would accept as a potential shag.
c) The fundamental criteria for uncontrollable part of fancying someone is physical. Therefore I discriminate against people sub(or un)consciously along arbitrary phsyical lines - from the way their face looks, to their height, weight and skin colour etc.

Are we surrendering too much to the flesh here?

If I gave that impression, then I apologise. I would not characterise it as the fundamental criterion at all. It's much more complex than that for me (though the idea of anonymous sex with someone I like the look of is a potent sexual fantasy, perhaps because it runs totally counter to the way I usually operate, stopping fancying most of these beautiful strangers as soon as they open their mouths).

I'll have to mull over Ellie's argument for a while. As usual.

Perhaps I'm getting in a little over my head now.

I agree with Ronan - are you implying that it's 'more right' to discriminate on the basis of intelligence or personality? Why? As I've said before, I consider those to be perhaps more cast in stone than looks. Mind you, at least personality/intelligence really is a 'horses for courses' utopia, pretty much.

(Down the pub one night) Girl: Oh ha ha ha Dave (or whoever) you are being on top comedy form tonight. I will have to give you a blow job.

Dave: Huzzah!

Hmmm. Must rethink this one....

I now sound like a self help leader or something but anyhow.

Mind you, I like the idea that he secretly wants some kind of meritocratic version of a 60s free love commune down the pub every night.

I'm totally looking at this from the eyes of my own argument, I realise, I just can't get my head around the other concept.

But if that change doesn't happen (and I still refuse to believe it would happen with a three headed monster, but hey..) then what do you do about it? Nothing. Pete seems to be suggesting that if the other person fancies you, you should be somehow more open minded, or work at fancying them. I say that's cloudcuckooland.

I'm not sure that using fancying someone as the way of distinguishing between your friends and lover(s) is an altogther good idea. I think we all have complex enough brains just to remember which is which. But there are enough situations when friends have become lovers and vice versa to suggest that this whole thing is constantly in a state of flux anyway. I think that it is pretty difficult as well to even expect consistency from oneself - (which is often what winds me up in arguments I have with Emma about this) just because in the past this has been the case must it be so in the future.

Still if anyone wants to try out my hippy pub going experience I'm willing to instigate.

On the other hand, I'd much rather be complimented on my brain than on my body, partly because I'm convinced that anyone who complimented me (out of the blue) on my physical appearance would a) not be fooling anybody b) be trying to scam me somehow.

On the humor/intelligence thing: you can't have reasonably well- developed humor WITHOUT intelligence...

There's also the really fun part of finding you get on really well with the person you were really physically attracted to before talking to them. This can be dead weird and scary (in a good way) especially when your friends don't see the physical attraction. Of course this has happened me once ever in its' entirety.

So do I, but really I extend this to any sort of compliment. They just don't seem credible.

I sort of see what Pete is saying. The PHWOAR factor is relevant, but you can grow to fancy people. In fact, my problem is I can't stop fancying women once I've grown to like them.

I don't there, there have been a few people that I wasn't initially attracted to when I first met them that I became attracted to once I got to know them.

There, my brain is in a state today for some reason.

Am I hopelessly romantic when I say I would have no problem shagging someone I totally adored? ie If gorgeousness is not an important factor in adoration => Why would I start worrying that that they're not pretty enough to shag? Or more analyitically, surely it's possible to be physically attracted to someone you don't think is objectively the most attractive person in the world - surely this way no one would ever sleep with non-alpha people (though maybe this is the case)?

I definitely need the physical attraction, I don't know if I need to think the person is fantastically attractive by other peoples standards, because if she isn't then they're wrong. FOOLS.

Full disclosure: I don't really date and am hopeless at navigating social conventions for such things. So what do I know?

Rogue formatting had me thinking that Lixi only made friends with women whom she thought would give birth for her.

This ties in to my what-do-we-do-about-unhappy-lonely-people bugbear, of course.

And do personalities really change that much? Looks do genuinely change (you get older...)

Nick, perhaps this is better addressed in a personal email, but I'm sorry if any of my posts have made you sad. I've never to my knowledge boasted of any "easy love". At times easy sex, maybe. I'm 35 this year, and had one boyfriend for 9 months that I thought I loved and loved me back. I'm actually very lonely. And if I remember correctly from our picture thread, you're a real cutie; didn't many people point this out? While "good looking" people (a category to which you belong) may have an overall easier time of it, we're all subject to insecurity and lonliness, and nothing in life is at all guaranteed.

Tom, at least you are willing to admit it;> The Net certainly has made it easier to meet others with similar interests. Finding someone to like (much less love) is difficult enough; at least, shyness becomes less of a factor. Your site (I can guess) allows potential partners to see inside your head---without that nerve racking first date.

Douglas and Nicole: join the crowd;> Growing up with that mindset, I _still_ fall into thinking that, sometimes. It has less to do with self-confidence, than experience. It's one thing for our mums to tell us, "You are the prettiest/most handsome one in the world", and another for a stranger to fancy you based on one (or two) looks.

After all, your parents are biased, ain't they?*

Dan, last I checked, that process was called being a surrogate....

Since when has "Lord of the Rings" turned into a dating manual;>? Sauron got emasculated, once he relied on testosterone [sub his finger for a certain other body part, and you'll see my point] None can qualify as losers, unless you allow it to affect you.

Now, obviously, I'm not gonna pursue all my female friends for sex and intimacy, of course.... even if I find them attractive. There's a level of respect to address there. But I'm also troubled with the notion that it's somehow inappopriate to want to be very intimate with somebody who you've come to trust and appreciate over a long period of time, whereas it's perfectly acceptable to be similarly intimate with some strange cutie that walks by your table in a bar.

As for this thread, I don't think trust and intelligence are mutually exclusive.

And to actually answer this thread: well, intelligence, of course. A pretty person with an ugly, empty personality is an ugly, empty person. Period. Even just for a night of sex. If I'm going to fuck somebody, I want to at least have the ability to be friends with her afterwards, ya know?

And you don't want to know how far I've gone to get a girl's attention. Thankfully, I've become wiser, more calm, and more confident in age.

That's why I thought it was a baffling criterion for friendship.

btw did anyone get the number of the three- headed pole?

2. I am in strong agreement with Emma - I think she's being OTM, not 'shallow'.

3. Vivienne Eliot's contribution = she should be locked up, in a nut- house, like. La.

4. Yes N = cutie as we all know; also Tim H is OTM re. 'indie boy' here.

5. N: You are one of the Good Guys.

6. Pete B = Bad Guy for excessive sandwich prices, SET BY HIM for all I know. Also he RIGS ELECTIONS (? what was result anyway?).

The search for a new Freaky Trigger slogan is over.

I was just thinking about this on the way up from the canteen. I would be perfectly happy for someone to fancy me (even go out with me) just for my looks, whereas if someone only liked me for my mind, that would bother me a lot. This could be interpreted in two different ways:
i) I am more secure about my personality than my physical self so do not need to feel validated by another on the former.
or

ii) I am just very shallow.

Do you still think this N? I relate alot to things you say about relationships, should I be worried?

As I say though, a great but kind of sad thread.

[Chorus]
Do your really even love me
If you do there is no pain
Do I really even love you
Or do I really love your -
Brain?