Take Back the Night marches, C/D?

bitches

These things just embolden the marchers. I predict that soon enough they will buy tridents and hand-nets and begin to terrorize whole neighborhoods.

I was generally supportive of these until I encountered one when walking back from my design studio late one night. Suddenly, simply for the crime of having a penis and walking in the wrong place at the wrong time, I became the target of taunts and anti-male chants. Massive dud.

dom make yourself useful and pull up that 'i like where this is going' jpg

and don't dilly dally on the way.

classic in principle, and in fact i've participated in one of these before, but like jon have also found myself made into a surprised target of frightening mob anger. can't say dud, but def not classic.

world's worst month:

http://www.humboldt.edu/~hsuwomen/images/Take%20back%20the%20night%202006%20Calendarpic.jpg

luckily, "party all the time" may was right around the corner.

http://www.portlandstudios.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/3goatssmall.jpg

"male identified people needed"

check out the kid

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper851/stills/425a29875ff75-87-1.jpg

I am very opposed to all types of Take Back the Night events.

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper851/stills/425a29875ff75-87-1.jpg

Creating a climate of fear: C/D

fear is a man's best friend

yeah, about as much as those women pictured above are a man's best friend

i think the climate of fear is created by groups/people a whole lot more fearsome and influential than a bunch of women walking around one night a year

i think this happened to eric forman

i am okay with these marches but i don't go on them as they are not the way i do things

i mean, call me the eternal optimist, but i wish these marches were happier events. like celebrating people's power and existence and equality rather than being angry angry angry and yelling ow the yelling. i like yelling but not that kind of yelling. if it were happy whooping yelling, then i'd be in. hell, i'm angry at a lot of stuff re state of the world, but i don't channel it into more anger. also there is often really bad live music going on at some point agh whyyy

Hey, at least they're getting some exercise and fresh air... and are all gathered in one place and therefore easier to avoid.

Back in my day (An Old Man Writes...)they were called Reclaim The Night and they were often on response to calls from the police, which, back then in the early 80s, were often worded like "we would advise women not to go out at night" or "don't go anywhere without men" or just "don't go out" and quite rightly a lot of wimmin I knew didn't like that tone. In those circumstances I think they were probably a good thing. They used to be pretty cheerful events from what I gathered.

Also, lol at ilxors who can't take a bit of verbal from a bunch of girls.

hey, some of us are sensitive!

yeah tho i will say my reaction to tones like "we would advise women not to go out at night" is 'fuck you this is fucking ridiculous! raar' so uh... i partly take back my happy stance above. sometimes anger gets things done.
xpost

http://www.police.edmonton.ab.ca/Pages/CanineUnit/Christmas%20Cards/We%20Own%20The%20Night%20(2003).jpg

Also, lol at ilxors who can't take a bit of verbal from a bunch of girls.

-- Ned Trifle II, Monday, December 17, 2007 2:55 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

keke

I always think these marches have something to do with Sting.

totally have this song in my head now guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0brHGJ6xqbk

i think the climate of fear is created by groups/people a whole lot more fearsome and influential than a bunch of women walking around one night a year

Yeah, the other 364 days of the year they do nothing.

Also, lol at ilxors who can't take a bit of verbal from a bunch of girls.

Fuck you. Being called "rapist" and "sexually abusing asshole" for simply walking down the street /= "a bit of verbal".

otm

hey, joanie loves chachi, you gotta learn when to keep it tucked in, son

In a funny way it's the analog to me/us getting called a "piece of ass" for walking down the street, equally undeservedly.

Also, lol at ilxors who can't take a bit of verbal from a bunch of girls.

kinda condescending to both jon and the "bunch of girls", no?

(i'm going to regret posting to this thread i think)

more to the girls i thought. but it's just playground banter, i'd let it lie.

i think the climate of fear is created by groups/people a whole lot more fearsome and influential than a bunch of women walking around one night a year

Yeah, the other 364 days of the year they do nothing.

i don't get what this means!
i meant that a group of women protesting does make a difference on however small a scale and that it doesn't create a climate of fear compared to places/people who really create climate of fear
:/

Which, like, forgive me if you're all sensitive and enlightened and shit, but I've had too many perfectly "nice", "normal" men tell me "but but but it's not creepy when I whistle at/leer at/compliment women, because I'm not dangerous" to rush entirely to your defense.

2 rongs /= right

In a funny way it's the analog to me/us getting called a "piece of ass" for walking down the street, equally undeservedly.

And thats definitely not okay either!

xp No, but sometimes they are delicious.

(troll jpg otm)

In a funny way it's the analog to me/us getting called a "piece of ass" for walking down the street, equally undeservedly

Yeah, but what about a person who calls you a piece of ass as a compliment?

My point is this - some guys are just ill-equipped to express their feelings of attraction to a woman in terms OTHER than ones similar to this. That doesn't mean that their expressed sentiment should be taken as any less complimentary than a guy who says "Great ass" or "Nice ass" or "Great dress" or "great hair."

It seems to me that complimenting someone on their physical appearance is never a bad thing.

NOW, calling someone a piece of ass like a totally de-personified object - that's a problem.

But a great ass is a great ass. And I reserve the right to compliment someone on said ass.

ALSO - these marches are called "Take Back the Night"...

At what point in human history has it EVER been advisable for a woman to walk alone at night in the first place? I'm not saying its right or wrong, but I think not often. Therefore, did they ever HAVE the night to be taken from them in the first place?

now THAT is a great argument

shit, a "piece of ass" isn't even a whole regular ass on a person

I hope you all know that at 8 p.m. EST, only women will be able to post on this thread.

i remember my sophomore year roommate wanted to dress up in a bear costume and jump out of a bush screaming Rrrrrooaaawwr at the ladies of Take Back the Night. i told him to go for it.

Any man who posts will have his ass complimented.

With garnish.

"piece of ass" is somwhere in the league of jeffrey dahmer type shit

Agreed, when used in the "side of beef" manner.

But as a slang phrase to mean someone has a nice ass? Not the nicest thing, but man - some asses just get you excited!

Therefore, did they ever HAVE the night to be taken from them in the first place?

Plz get (1) "The Enlightenment".

Also, lol at ilxors who can't take a bit of verbal from a bunch of girls.

Fuck you. Being called "rapist" and "sexually abusing asshole" for simply walking down the street /= "a bit of verbal".

-- jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, December 17, 2007 8:19 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Easy tiger. Every woman (EVERY SINGLE WOMAN) I know has had some of this shit thrown at them in their lives. From wolf whistles to being jeered at to 'get yer tits out' to being felt up on the tube to being actually physically abused. You call out every 'reclaim the night' march as massive dud because you get called a few names once.

How about Now That We Have The Night Again, You May Have a Little Piece (of It) If You Are Nice marches, eh?

oh blampaws

You're missing the point. I don't think it is ever, under and circumstances, okay to yell "rapist" at a random person in public - no matter what point is trying to be made.

You're missing the point. I don't think it is ever, under and circumstances, okay to yell "rapist" at a random person in public - no matter what point is trying to be made.

The correct response is obviously to stalk, torture, and kill each and every woman who has done this to you.

someone lock this thread already PLEASE.

yeah really it's a dally thread c'mon people. he's laughing in front of his computer somewhere in his underwear eating a pint of cherry garcia with his fingers

^^^ agreed (except for megalolz @ libcrypt)

x-post

(my comments are not having the desired effect...I went to dinner at my in-laws last night, and couldn't bait them into an argument to save my life, so I figured THIS would be the thread to do it on)

In all honesty, I think that these marches are good things. Myself, I have a good number of friends and relatives who have been either raped, abused or attacked and from just the show of solidarity and support, these marches can be great things. They can really show people that they are not alone.

xp.

No I haven't, and I didn't say it was ok to yell out rapist at you. My point is that your personal abuse is a lot less than the crap a lot of women have to put up with every day. I wouldn't even bother arguing this point but your "fuck you" was disproportionate I think.

They should carry pitchforks and torches.

But the whole roving band of pissed off women aspect? Terrifying and ridiculous at the same time.

In the grand scheme of things, being the target of an anonymous yell of "rape" is a lot less bad than being raped.

So, if we are going to have proper eye-for-an-eye here, I guess the correct response to "rapist" is "ewww, you? GROSS!"

xp By a few degrees, give or take a million.

que brings the lulz

eating a piece of jerry garcia' ass with his fingers?

but your "fuck you" was disproportionate I think.

Yeah, agreed.

but your "fuck you" was disproportionate I think.

Well, maybe. Some guys, with friends or family who've been raped, might take some pretty serious offense to being called this.

I certainly would.

Wrong fuck you, I b'leev.

No, that was the fuck you in response to the idea that it was somehow alright to be called a rapist during one of these marches.

Which, in some respects, was justified.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6000/9midzp6.jpg

a couple weeks ago i was walking down the street in the afternoon when this twelve year-old (maybe) kid called me a charlatan and a douchebag.

i should have sonned him but i got pwned instead

charlatan is a pretty big word for a 12 year old

so is "pedophile"

Way to take the thread in a while new direction!

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/173340/2/istockphoto_173340_congrats_candles.jpg

People on here acting like women are going to achieve any kind of healing through yelling "rapist" at random dudes: lol.

Are people acting like that on here? I don't rly care about the women involved in that incident, I'm mostly just mean-spirited enough to enjoy a man FREAKING THE FUCK OUT when unfairly approached/accused in public.

Why?

Er...because god made me that way?

I can't believe the stupidity of the attitude of "lol, well suck it up that you got called a rapist, because women get raped!"

Okay. Well um...enjoy that?

I mean, enjoy feeling superior. I already admitted it was mean-spirited so I'm pretty much not defending it any further.

qft peeps

I wasn't saying that to you, d-bag.

It'd be funny if they called a man who had been raped a rapist. Because men never get raped, you see.

Not any real men, at least.

^^^

Gottta say classic really, the Women's office at my university ran a long running campaign to make the area round the Engineering building, (which also happened to be a big curb crawling area) a whole lot safer for women and men.

Because men never get raped, you see.

http://www.dvdtown.com/images/displayimage.php?id=2774

i don't think they ever got him in the movie - did they?

they didn't get him in the story either

maybe i went to a nice college or something but i dont remember hearing anyone complain about take back the nighters harrassing men for being men. this event makes sense to me.

i mean, people being jerks is dud, raising awareness about issues of rape via a yearly event can be potentially classic. whats to debate?

That it is raising awareness about rape issues.

you're right, awareness would be much higher if there was no event at all

Susan Komen races should feature participants yelling at men, "Haha, your nuts are gonna fall off!"

like pretty much any public awareness-raising event, it totally depends on how it is handled by the people involved, and i don't think take back the night (in my anecdotal experience) is much different from any other awareness-raising issue ... except that rape is more common than breast cancer on college campuses, so perhaps important to focus on.

i dont remember hearing anyone complain about take back the nighters harrassing men for being men

yeah stories abt this are totally new to me, i dont really know where the haters went to college or whatever but maaaaybe what you guys mean is "jerks: dud"

I was just complaining because it came through a working class neighborhood and woke everyone up.

aw, thats a bummer

just can't bear to see this thread die can ya dals

guys i like ice cream

I was just complaining because it came through a working class neighborhood and woke everyone up.

-- dally, Monday, December 17, 2007 4:54 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

good to see you in solidarity with the working man, desk jockey

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/88/Working_class_dog.jpg/200px-Working_class_dog.jpg

I've barely posted on it and it's been kept alive all day with very little help from me, Dan. And again, I don't see why asking you folks about this subject constitutes trolling, someone please explain.

At the school I attended not so long ago, sexual assault was (after much hand-wringing) codified in the bylaws as "ANY unwanted sexual advance," which means that pretty much everyone is sexually assaulted several times throughout an average lifetime.

Also they did get him in Shawshank Redemption, multiple times.

you're right, awareness would be much higher if there was no event at all

?

That's what you took out of what I said?

nah but the idea that they are inherently not going to raise awareness seems a bit cuckoo

hey guys what did i miss

yeah stories abt this are totally new to me, i dont really know where the haters went to college or whatever but maaaaybe what you guys mean is "jerks: dud"

-- max, Monday, December 17, 2007 10:44 PM

I'm def not a hater, and have helped organize these before, but I was a little weirded out when a couple years later, like Jon, I was made the target of severely fucked up taunts. Obviously being taunted and shouted at is in a far different realm of 'frustrating issues' than say, rape, but it was especially frustrating to me as a former organizer of these things that a crowd like this would turn its anger on me.

But again, I unreservedly support these and would organize them again. In the future, though, I might caution my fellow marchers to tone down the anger and/or avoid directing it outwards. Anger can be constructive, but directing it at random passerby is not the way to win people.

http://www.connollyco.com/discography/joan_armatrading/back_hi.jpg

Back To the Night >>>> Take Back the Night

That One Lionel Richie Song >>>>>>>>>>> Back To the Nigh

directing it at random passerby is not the way to win people.

lol deeply ingrained socialist terminology.

nah but the idea that they are inherently not going to raise awareness seems a bit cuckoo

Where did you get "inherently"?

Considering there are 364 annual Awesome, We Own The Night! marches for dudes, I don't see the big deal about one Take Back The Night march for women. Also I never heard any stories about guys getting called rapist on that night at my school, but I did hear from plenty of girls that guys would yell stuff like "whore" and "suck my dick" as they marched.

lol roxy = philosopher.

Although, dud = a gay guy I know who had been abused by a partner was not allowed to participate in the march, although they did allow him to speak.

philospher who calls people d-bags, i guess

lol @ jon/via/chi = joanie loves chachi way ^^^

seems to me that ppl are just trying to figure a coherent set of ideas behind yr posts. not saying you dont have one in your head , but youve left only a few snipy remarks to hang such on here. e.g. i dont get what you mean by "creating a climate of fear c/d" or "as much as those women pictured above are a man's best friend". do you mean that said marches create a climate of fear? how? and what are you saying about those women?

for the record, i dont have a problem with take back the night marches nor as a man confident in my ability to take any female bent on attacking me as i walk the streets at night do i think it should matter one piece of rats ass if i did. there may be better ways of raising awarenesses toward rape and relative issues, but i have not put the work in to say. i do respect that jon/via/chi 2.0 has had personal experience resulting in mixed feelings for him and i think its cool he keeps his experience in perspective even though all i did to show it was insinuate the outsidicity of his chachi w.r.t. the front of his pants.

Where did you get "inherently"?

-- roxymuzak, Tuesday, 18 December 2007 04:52 (3 hours ago) Link

are you not implying that take back the night is ineffective

raising awarenesses toward rape and relative issues

I think she's saying these events do little to raise awareness of rape, but instead foster a climate of victimhood and fear, and are hostile towards men in general.

lol this thread. idk how much awareness is being raised by these, esp. in college bcuz most ppl i know would be repelled by a large, loud and kind of bothersome parade. i guess coverage in campus papers or something might get women thinking about their safety again, but i don't think these have much impact.

i haven't witnessed/heard about any verbal abuse of dudes @ any og these.

by parade i mean march but the one i saw was basically a parade w/ blocked off streets and a police escort and the whole nine

dally, son, while the responses to this thread are not so bad i have to say yr posts read like a pair of sweatpants concealing the boner of bad intentions from yr favorite schoolteacher which reads like this internet community

Fuck you. Being called "rapist" and "sexually abusing asshole" for simply walking down the street /= "a bit of verbal".

-- jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, December 17, 2007 8:19 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

american TBTN marches sound more confrontational than here in blighty!

you might want to straighten that tie, is what i'm saying

(sorry one guy, i meant that for the lad)

It'd be funny if they called a man who had been raped a rapist. Because men never get raped, you see.

yeah man it's like reverse racism - nobody ever talks about the pain of the white people who suffer discrimination!

It's about time somebody stood up for the rich, white man. Who's with me!

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/canada-magazine/issue16/site/images/g8leaders.jpg

(I know, please don't write in and tell me it's out of date and there's a woman in the mix now...)

who hears when the rich white men cry?

Women's studies students in "occasionally wrong about stuff" swerve.

lol rich white men, don't get any scout badges for being nice to them on message boards, eh?

You really suck.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518SUqyM5hL.jpg

being politicians that bunch aren't that rich though are they really?

these cunts on the other hand...

http://www.ofi-pecapital.com/inout/ofipec/equipeOfiPrivateEquityCapitalUK.jpg

What does it sound like when doves private equity managers cry?

even though all i did to show it was insinuate the outsidicity of his chachi w.r.t. the front of his pants.

Not to be pedantic, but I think you mean to say, "the outsidicity of his chachisity..."

chachisity belt?

are you not implying that take back the night is ineffective

Yes, I believe it is ineffective, but I don't believe it is inherently ineffective! Could be done better (and probably has been in the past), rather than as Kerm said, "fostering a climate of victimhood" & being dicks to men.

do any of these 'take back the night' events have any connection to useful education, such as self-defense workshops? because it seems to me that might have a much more tangible, useful effect in preventing the sort of violence and victimization these marches are protesting.

to be sure, these types of protests might raise awareness about violence towards women, but awareness isn't prevention. why not offer additional resources and instruction that might actually allow women to protect themselves?

bryn mawr beatdowns

xpost - I don't think we have these marches where I live... but I rather thought their point was that women shouldn't have to 'protect themselves' when they go out at night - they should be able to go out without fear of attack or abuse?

Yes, I think that is the point.

Okay, I understand the point that women shouldn't have to gird themselves for battle in order to walk somewhere at night, but saying that women don't share responsibility for their own safety seems like a distressed-damsel cop-out.

yes of course elmo, but it would defeat the purpose of the march if it ended up with a self-defence class. Not saying that women shouldn't learn how to protect themselves but it seems inappropriate to co-locate such an initiative with a 'take back the night' march.

it would be like saying 'that march was good for solidarity but actually we can't really take back the night at all, so here - learn how to kick someone in the nuts'

which kind of fosters the climate of victimhood or whatever even more actually!

I understand how those two ideas are opposed, but it seems like it would be more effective in reclaiming The Night longterm if any would-be attackers were sonned by nut-smashings. And also, women could, you know, walk around with less fear. Alone!

Learning how to beat someone's ass is definitely not culture of victimhood.

i've never seen or been to one of these marches, so I'm speaking a little outside my realm here, but are women supposed to feel safer all year round just because one night out of the year they organize and take to the street en masse? i really don't understand that line of reasoning!

learning how to protect yourself does not engender victimhood, wtf

The amrch itself doesn't make sense except as an act of protest, I think, elmo.

Please don't confuse actual safety with the perception of safety -- there are lots of women who probably DO have reservations about walking alone anywhere at night. They probably don't live in Brooklyn and take the subway every day, and their fears may or may not be borne out in actual statistics, but they have been told and/or have perceived that they SHOULD BE AFRAID. If a march and a message can change the kind or amount of public space/respect they feel entitled to, they're a lot more likely to demand it, or to act in a way that predicts it, or any number of positive outcomes. Those people are probably best reached by something like a solidarity march alone. Change what people feel entitled to, and you give them a lot more power to demand/enact/whatevs changes in their environment.

A self-defense class is really really a last resort -- and again, I think that for anyone who's not going to make a regular practice of a martial or defensive art, the most valuable result of a one-time or short-duration class is a FEELING that you are more powerful than you had thought (or had been taught). Just gaining physical confidence is valuable, or accepting that it's OKAY to meet violence with violence, it's OKAY to be "rude" and "unfeminine" sometimes, you aren't socially obligated to be polite to those who stand too close or leer or are subtly disempowering. Quite frankly at my first ever self-defense class, a man purposefully stood too close and loomed over me and my only response was to move MYSELF further away and act like nothing was wrong. What a fucked-up message to give women, and yet that's what I'd absorbed.

So I think unlearning those kinds of lessons is really the first, and maybe the most important step in all this.

The Mayor of Bogota, capital of Colombia instituted a male curfew for one night and encouraged the women of the city to go out to demonstrate the impact men had on the cities' murder, violent crime and traffic accident rates. It was apparantly a resounding success.

Wait, is it dangerous out there, or are women being scared into just thinking so?

Also: lol @ "lol rich white men" - you guys realize TBTN couldn't be any more "lol rich white women" right? They're not protesting Sharia law or sex enslavement or any other stuff around the world that actually crushes women's freedom of movement - they're American and European feminists who kept getting told not to travel alone at night and so they got offended, and then organized A BIG AFTER-DARK MARCH. Get 'em, ladies.

Uh, I think the obvious answer is "both"? Sometimes environments ARE more or less dangerous, for either sex.

But I'm also not going to argue about the fact that women are frequently conditioned to be polite, non-violent, self-effacing, and to "avoid" trouble instead of expecting any kind of equal consideration.

Drug cartels aren't run by girls, and all men in Bogota aren't violent criminals. Ban women from going out for a day and see what happens to department store sales, then ask yourself which stereotypes you've resorted to and which gender you've disrespected most.

to be sure, these types of protests might raise awareness about violence towards women, but awareness isn't prevention. why not offer additional resources and instruction that might actually allow women to protect themselves?

-- elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 18 December 2007 15:55 (52 minutes ago) Link

how about because the vast majority of rapes happen from ppl the victim knows in circumstances that dont exactly play into 'good thing i learned how to kick someone in the nuts,' ie drunken revelry goes wrong in the dorm room type sitautions. 'take back the night' is, in my impression, more symbolic of the idea that it is usually the night time in which rapes occur ... its not about being able to walk from one side of campus to the other one day a year, and its definitely not about being a victim

quite the opposite in fact, its about having agency

Laurel, I've been taught to be polite, non-violent, self-effacing and to "avoid" trouble on account of it being how to act like a good person... Have I jeopardized my gender's power monopoly?

Yes, I believe it is ineffective, but I don't believe it is inherently ineffective! Could be done better (and probably has been in the past), rather than as Kerm said, "fostering a climate of victimhood" & being dicks to men.

-- roxymuzak, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:44 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

the way you are talking about it in this thread implies otherwise - yr not like "sometimes things can get out of hand," yr just like "take back the night is man-hating fearmongering!!!!"

xp Oh never mind, then, carry on. Growing up as a man is probably exactly like growing up as a woman and people don't treat you any differently where you come from.

Is that what I said? What was the difference between how you suggested women are raised and how I said I was? You said they're "conditioned" to act a certain way "instead of" expecting equal treatment. I'm saying lots and lots of men are taught the same types of behavior because is the proper way to act. So I notice how your phrasing implies victimization and injustice well before any actual groping, catcalling, discrimination or violence against women ever occurs? What's going on there?

good way to defuse stereotypes, Kerm, by mentioning drugs cartels in Bogota in your first post on the country

we belong to the night we belong to each other

or, because the night belongs to lovers

in the middle of the ni-ii-ight i went walking in my sleep

oops

<i> Drug cartels aren't run by girls, and all men in Bogota aren't violent criminals. Ban women from going out for a day and see what happens to department store sales, then ask yourself which stereotypes you've resorted to and which gender you've disrespected most. </i>

I don't think all the men in Bogota are violent criminals either. But on the night in question, which was described as something of a carnival atmosphere for women, many of who's husbands don't allow them to go out on weekends, all the crime measures were down 50 to 80%.

To play fair, the mayor, due to lots of whining from bitter men also did a Female curfew day tit for tat, where Women stayed home and only men were allowed to go out. An event which was considered by most to be a failure due to the fact that interaction with women is one of the main drivers of men's desire to go out at night.

Kerm it's pretty apparent that no matter how we're all "supposed' to behave, men are given a lot more leeway to be confrontational and impolite than women are, who's "feminine" training conditions them to politely and quietly avoid assholes, no matter the inconvenience.

They banned 50% of the population from leaving their houses, and the crime rate dropped 50%? That's amazing.

The crime rate only fell 25%.

i love the phrase "culture of victimhood" when i hear it used to describe various racial minorities, but i love it even more when i hear it used to describe women

Damn. What do you think about Rachel Ray?

Also: the curfew was voluntary. Bogota's street criminals are very cooperative.

i remember my sophomore year roommate wanted to dress up in a bear costume and jump out of a bush screaming Rrrrrooaaawwr at the ladies of Take Back the Night. i told him to go for it.

-- sanskrit, Monday, 17 December 2007 20:42

lol

Also, lol at ilxors who can't take a bit of verbal from a bunch of girls.

Fuck you. Being called "rapist" and "sexually abusing asshole" for simply walking down the street /= "a bit of verbal".

-- jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, December 17, 2007 8:19 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Easy tiger. Every woman (EVERY SINGLE WOMAN) I know has had some of this shit thrown at them in their lives. From wolf whistles to being jeered at to 'get yer tits out' to being felt up on the tube to being actually physically abused. You call out every 'reclaim the night' march as massive dud because you get called a few names once.

-- Ned Trifle II, Monday, 17 December 2007 20:47

'snot the point tho. this march is supposed to represent (i would hope) enlightened, egalitarian and rational values. lowering yourself to boneheaded shit like calling out a complete stranger as a violent sociopath is just depressing, no matter however the recipient is meant to "feel" about it.

FOR SHAME

however=how

They're not protesting Sharia law or sex enslavement or any other stuff around the world that actually crushes women's freedom of movement - they're American and European feminists who kept getting told not to travel alone at night and so they got offended, and then organized A BIG AFTER-DARK MARCH. Get 'em, ladies.

Not sure if you're trolling, ignorant, or Phyllis Schlafly but these marches have never been about a single issue. If you're going to make BIG BOLD CLAIMS at least get your facts straight.

I think the marches have more to do with youthful exhibitionism than anything rational or enlightening.

I think the marches have more to do with youthful exhibitionism than anything rational or enlightening.

-- dally, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:25 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

like my posts, innit

In my own admittedly limited experience, dud as anything other than a bi-curious mixer.

s, nirrusm Can you explain to me the rational part about walking through residential neighborhoods and yelling in an effort to raise consciousness?

It woke you up, didn't it?

s, nirrusm Can you explain to me the rational part about walking through residential neighborhoods and yelling in an effort to raise consciousness?

-- dally, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 7:30 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

Not sure if you're trolling, ignorant, or Phyllis Schlafly but these marches have never been about a single issue. If you're going to make BIG BOLD CLAIMS at least get your facts straight.

-- s. morris, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:23 AM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Violence against women was their single issue. Breaking it down into specific locations, perpetrators and techniques fills up flier space but does not broaden the cause. That came later. From the start they've excluded the men who justly warned them that the night was dangerous for a lonely girl, and to this day they still march in a crowd and refuse to credit those whose advice they now heed at least once a year.

s, nirrusm Can you explain to me the rational part about walking through residential neighborhoods and yelling in an effort to raise consciousness?

-- dally, Tuesday, 18 December 2007 19:30 (21 minutes ago) Link

if it hadnt happened we wouldnt be having this discussion

ban dally

Probably not, as I've been out college for many years so Take Back the Night Marches hadn't really entered my mind for a long time.

deej, on what grounds would you ban me?

From the start they've excluded the men who justly warned them that the night was dangerous for a lonely girl

Classic!

xpost ILX has banned for much less, I'm afraid. My advice is you'd better find out what the majority of ILE believes and then start agreeing with it real fast or you'll be banished to ILM forever

My advice is you'd better find out what the majority of ILE believes about ILX jokes and then start agreeing with it laughing real fast or you'll be banished to ILM forever be the target of ILX zings forever.

Fixed.

From the start they've excluded the men who justly warned them that the night was dangerous for a lonely girl, and to this day they still march in a crowd and refuse to credit those whose advice they now heed at least once a year.

quote of the day

wow, nothing like college women having a march to draw the trolls AND make ilx somehow lose its critical faculties

If only they had just listened to the menfolk...

Probably not, as I've been out college for many years so Take Back the Night Marches hadn't really entered my mind for a long time.

deej, on what grounds would you ban me?

-- dally, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 8:02 PM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Part of me wants to say "Yeah, girls. Go ahead and march. WOOO!!!"

Part of me wants to say "A lot of the complaints about THESE marches are the same type of things that were said during the 50s and 60s, only replace women with blacks."

Most of me wants to say "Its a fucking shame that these marches are deemed not only acceptable, but necessary, and its a further shame that colleges don't spend more time helping students learn how to be fully formed adults with healthy sex lives."

Seriously, dudes. If she ain't feeling you, don't go feeling her.

Seriously, dudes. If she ain't feeling you, don't go feeling her.

You should put that on a placard sign.

My college was more concerned with making sure none of us ever had sex, or at least pretending that we weren't.

My college was more concerned with making sure none of us ever had sex, or at least pretending that we weren't.

Exactly. College kids are gonna be gettin' down, or at least, they want to be gettin' down. Why not help them do it in a mutually pleasing and (at least after some practice) satisfying way?

Because of God.

if you need somebody to tell you not to go around groping and raping people by the time you're in your late teens/early twenties, then there isn't really much hope for you.

God: fucking shit up. Again.

if you need somebody to tell you not to go around groping and raping people by the time you're in your late teens/early twenties, then there isn't really much hope for you.

But that's just my point! There should be. I would bet that a lot of dudes who do this act out of a sense of desparation or self-applied inability to go out and actually get a girl to be with you voluntarily.

And, while not saying "Let's coddle college kids even more," colleges should be aware that some of their students are not as emotionally or maturity developed as others.

MORE POSITIVE EDUCATION!!! Imagine how much cooler every college campus would be if there were classes that taught men a wide variety of ways to give a woman an orgasm. Just think about it for a second. Wouldn't EVERYONE be so much more chilled out?

Seriously - I would TOTALLY hire a person who graduated magna with a degree in sex studies. Man or woman.

I would bet that a lot of dudes who do this act out of a sense of desparation or self-applied inability to go out and actually get a girl to be with you voluntarily.

People who catcall, whistle, and are generally obnoxious: maybe. People who rape: I gotta say probably not because it's usually not really about sex.

xxp Ew. No. Are you high? Think about the kind of people who would teach those classes.

Seriously, dudes. If she ain't feeling you, don't go feeling her.

-- B.L.A.M., Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:00 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

are you trying to imply that if I happen to think the marches are kind of silly that means I approve of sexual harrassment and rape?

its a further shame that colleges don't spend more time helping students learn how to be fully formed adults with healthy sex lives."

This isn't what a college is for is it?

are you trying to imply that if I happen to think the marches are kind of silly that means I approve of sexual harrassment and rape?

Absolutely. Any critical thought about this will be taken as mental assault and/ or mental rape.

ok you're kidding.

I'd assume so.

http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07512/TOMBOT.png

He's just gonna be disappointed in us...

Alright, lets be proactive (and possibly even MORE offensive) -

What are some ways we could IMPROVE the effectiveness of TBTN marches in educating and informing men that women on college campuses are not to be treated with a lack of respect?

more violence?

^ i think no

Actually, Kerm, I do like the idea of these marches turning into large nighttime self-defense workshops. I know we've gone over self-defense not really being *the point*, the point is that women shouldn't have to feel afraid, but obviously the ability to defend yourself is always a confidence booster.

Though obv the idea needs some tweaking, maybe you don't want to hear 100 "hyaaa!"s at 1 am.

damn this thread, I can't get Natalie Merchant out of my head now

ban dally

-- deej, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 7:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Lin

please show your support here:

why is the ban dally thread locked?

How about concealed weapons classes? That's only the threat of potential violence! Ounce of prevention, etc. Hyaaas are for the movies.

Hyaaas are for the movies.

Not according to my 7 years of Kenpo training, but point taken.

http://www.da.wvu.edu/archives/021904/graphics/photos/ibmarch1.jpg

WITH WHAT

oh, that kid is totally afeared of the 'gina.

is that B.L.A.M.?

aka the vagsaver

ITT: a bunch of guys debate whether Take Back the Night marches are good or bad!

B.L.A.M. is currently leading this awful thread in unintentionally creepy sexist comments:

It seems to me that complimenting someone on their physical appearance is never a bad thing.

NOW, calling someone a piece of ass like a totally de-personified object - that's a problem.

But a great ass is a great ass. And I reserve the right to compliment someone on said ass.

Imagine how much cooler every college campus would be if there were classes that taught men a wide variety of ways to give a woman an orgasm.

But the whole roving band of pissed off women aspect? Terrifying and ridiculous at the same time.

ugh i should have separated those ..

You should also have realized that they were a joke. Luckily there's no shortage of more serious creepy comments!

i suppose so. there's a certain level of annoying condescension on this thread that is rubbing me the wrong way. started with the original post, heightened with "a bunch of girls", and hit its peak at what i perceived to be an aww-aren't-they-cute-when-they're-mad perspective.

At my school one of these marches sparked a massive debate at my school, mostly between feminist groups and conservative frat guys, that turned really ugly and at the peak of it a really vocal feminist student lied about being raped. It polarized the whole school and did nothing for the debate. I'm not at all for condemning these marches but it would be nice to be able to show concern for the attitudes behind them without being automatically called 'condescending' and 'sexist.'

adamj IS Veronica Mars?

adamj: victim of the zing culture

But seriously

it would be nice to be able to show concern for the attitudes behind them without being automatically called 'condescending' and 'sexist.'

^^^^^ on point

Don't worry, I had to look that zing up on Wikipedia because I don't watch UPN, so there was very little emotional scarring.

I actually still don't get it.

more violence?

-- Kerm, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:46 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

^ i think no

-- BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:48 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

Sorry. Sounds to me like that Jericho dipshit needed a lesson in 'why to be civil' and received it in a remarkably compassionate way.

Adamj: What school did you go to?

University of New Hampshire

...a grand bastion of intellectualism, I know.

At my school one of these marches sparked a massive debate at my school, mostly between feminist groups and conservative frat guys, that turned really ugly and at the peak of it a really vocal feminist student lied about being raped. It polarized the whole school and did nothing for the debate. I'm not at all for condemning these marches but it would be nice to be able to show concern for the attitudes behind them without being automatically called 'condescending' and 'sexist.'

-- adamj, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

so like we said at the beginning of the thread ... being a jerk, c/d?

but way to argue against a protest of rape by pointing out that sometimes people on the 'right side' can be assholes too

environmentalism, c/d?

dud, ecoterrorists ruin it for everybody!!!

if only those rape-concerned feminists had stayed home so as not to antagonize the jocks

Do believe I said "I'm not at all for condemning these marches." I was using it as an example of how it's fairly cheap to use rape's emotional impact for mudslinging, and that doing things like that lower the debate to insults and stereotyping, a lot like what has happened to this thread.

Is it wrong to speak out against ecoterrorism?

Come on deej, you're caricaturing dude's argument.

"Stop lying about being raped, you're just antagonizing the jocks."

of course not, but its not like ecoterrorism is inherent to environmentalism, any more than folks faking rape is inherent to take back the night marches. obviously jerks are jerks, but even big hoos was on here saying "but def not classic" about a protest against rape. maybe there's some epidemic nationwide of these events sparking turmoil between jocks and feminists, causing folks to falsely cry rape or yell mean things at jon/via/chi but like i said, in my anecdotal exp. these things tend to be, on the whole, positive events calling attention to shit that needs attention called to it.

There's nobody in this country on the "wrong side" of the "rape debate"...

I said "def not classic" because of my antecdotal experience. A little further down, with the benefit of time to think, I also said I've organized them before and would organize them again. I just might caution my fellow marchers about where their anger is directed.

xp

There's nobody in this country on the "wrong side" of the "rape debate"...

-- Kerm, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:00 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

rapists?

people who think rape is not an issue worth paying attention to or talking about?

HOOS also said "classic in principle" which is probably the best you're ever really gonna get out of any protest/direct action no matter how noble the cause.

At my school one of these marches sparked a massive debate at my school, mostly between feminist groups and conservative frat guys, that turned really ugly and at the peak of it a really vocal feminist student lied about being raped. It polarized the whole school and did nothing for the debate. I'm not at all for condemning these marches but it would be nice to be able to show concern for the attitudes behind them without being automatically called 'condescending' and 'sexist.'

^^^^ i think probably the conservative frat guys were on the "wrong side" of the "rape debate" on this one, even if one--ONE--of the women lied about a rape.

show concern for the attitudes behind them

what are these attitudes?

Rapists don't debate. People who don't care or talk about rape don't debate it either. Just because someone thinks critically about your protest doesn't mean they're sexist or don't care about rape.

I'd be interested in what those "conservative frat guys'" positions were, but I very seriously doubt they comprised a pro-rape camp.

there is a whole range of positions within a general "anti-rape" rubric that are sexist, oppressive and generally harmful

Like "don't trust men, they're sexual predators."

http://classes.design.ucla.edu/si06/student_html/desma2/sessionA/drew/narrative/referee.jpg

I'm just going to get way, way the fuck away from this thread.

http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07513/hoos_ref.png
l-r: everyone, hoos, everyone

9.5/10

kerm you aren't coming close to thinking critically on this thread

borderline trollish/banworthy obtuse more like

some of the trolls here would've loved the 70s
Why Was Rape Considered So Hilarious in the 70s?

Come on deej ilx, you're caricaturing dude's every opposing argument.

Get over yourself, deej. You have done nothing but indict and accuse anyone who dares to think critically about Take Back the Night... You even asked "what's to debate?" How can you talk about critical thinking if you can't even THINK of anything anyone would want to take issue with here? The premise of the thread apparently offends you so much that you've recommended banning two people here already. If you don't want to participate, or it pisses you off too much to read what anybody else has to say, then follow the FAQ and take a break.

Drug cartels aren't run by girls, and all men in Bogota aren't violent criminals. Ban women from going out for a day and see what happens to department store sales, then ask yourself which stereotypes you've resorted to and which gender you've disrespected most.

-- Kerm, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:49 PM

FYI this thread sux

or is that BTW

See, there's this stereotype that women like shopping.

i know!

lol? at

people who think rape is not an issue worth paying attention to or talking about? ET AL

followed by

kerm you aren't coming close to thinking critically on this thread

As much as I don't care about TBTN marches, one way or the other, I really don't think they're the least bit effective. If women started shooting the balls offa rapists, that might have a bit more of an impact.

roxy wtf are you talking about

Since someone has already made the Veronica Mars joke (damn you), I will just say this:

I think these events make more sense in certain kinds of environments (usually college campuses) where the night-time danger is shitty or violent behavior by your own social peers and fellow students: back in the 90s, at least, it seemed like they were pretty positive, and just generally fostered a sense of alertness/awareness and (most importantly) women looking out for one another. Not in a besieged or victimized way, either -- just looking out for one another, and in a public way that would hopefully send a message to some people/men that they should behave in the first place.

But I don't know if they've changed since then, because since then I've lived in exactly the kinds of urban environments where they don't make a ton of sense: there doesn't seem to be much point to them when the night-time danger is the kind of street crime that leaves men and women both mostly concerned about not getting violently robbed, and people are highly safety-aware to begin with. I can't imagine they've changed enough over the past years that shouting at random male passersby is anything but an abberation on the part of people who are Doing It Wrong -- but I'd also guess that the positive "let's look out for one another" vibe seems a little 90s and corny to some kids today, so maybe it's whittling down to the radicals or something.

well put, old bean

shouting at random male passersby is anything but an abberation on the part of people who are Doing It Wrong

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that

big hoos i thought someone talked to you about doing that

and on a nabisco post no less! have you no sense of decorum

O..O
vvvv
^^^^

vahid is that the monster from cloverfield??

saying that women don't share responsibility for their own safety seems like a distressed-damsel cop-out.

-- elmo argonaut, Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:05 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

wau you really are a grade-a cockwipe.

well put, old bean

-- moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 19 December 2007 06:33

Nabisco WPOB

wow i really regret having my name pop up at the top of this thread every time

so i should probably stop bumping it, huh

that one guy, you have obvious reading comprehension problems

http://www.derekerdman.com/1/LOU_BEGA_THE_NIGHT.jpg

Lou Bega the night?!

I'm impressed he knows all their names!

fpd u for that nv