Proof that God exists!

just one and a half paragraphs of that made me nauseous
did you even read it?

Reasoning involves using the laws of logic. These include the law of non-contradiction which says that you can’t have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship. For example, the statement “My car is in the parking lot, and it is not the case that my car is in the parking lot” is necessarily false by the law of non-contradiction. Any rational person would accept this law. But why is this law true? Why should there be a law of non-contradiction, or for that matter, any laws of reasoning? The Christian can answer this question. For the Christian there is an absolute standard for reasoning; we are to pattern our thoughts after God’s. The laws of logic are a reflection of the way God thinks. The law of non-contradiction is not simply one person’s opinion of how we ought to think, rather it stems from God’s self-consistent nature. God cannot deny Himself ( 2 Timothy 2:13), and so, the way God upholds the universe will necessarily be non-contradictory.

I stopped reading after this para (the third) because there is the most massive leap of reasoning I've ever seen in there which nullifies anything that could possibly follow. "This is the case because God exists" is not the same as "God must exist because of". It's idiocy.

he truly is an awesome god

You can’t stub your toe on a law of logic.

I read it all! It's funny, almost every single sentence is balderdash.

The materialistic atheist... believes that everything that exists is material.

No, that is not a world view that was held by anyone ever.

You can’t stub your toe on a law of logic.

^^^ should be the new OTM

heres who wrote this piece

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/j_lisle.asp

Dr. Lisle is not the stereotypical “egg-head” research scientist who has difficulty communicating at a layman’s level.

Funny how an astrophysicist with a Ph.D is so in need of basic science 101.

or logic 101

or basic reasoning 101

imagine if this guy was your dad & you disagreed with him on something

I just hope U of Colorado Boulder is embarrassed. Why can't you redact somebody's Ph.D like you can get disbarred or lose your right to practice medicine? I suppose because science is all a lie anyway! Thanks Bible!

Mind you many not batshit scientists have a pretty poor grasp of basic philosophy.

http://www.nbc.com/30_Rock/images/episodes/season1/118/rok_118_08.jpg
thanks BIBLE!

Atheism and theism both involve leaps of faith that go beyond reasoning.

However atheists more commonly accept a contingent methodology (scientific enquiry) to their worldview, whereas theists generally fit the world to their view, which seems wrongheaded.

I'm a devout agnostic.

Atheism and theism both involve leaps of faith that go beyond reasoning.

RONG

How so?

And a RONG answer is no answer. Refute my balls.

ho boy this is gonna be fun, at least until ethan says 'why am i arguing with this jerkwad' and goes off to google for more christian fallacies ^_^

I'm willing to be refuted. I'd love it, I want to love TEH LORD.

You're a moron.

everyone's a moron

atheism is not a positive belief, it's lack of a belief. nothing can be 'proven' besides boring math stuff, and you can't disprove a non-testable hypothesis like 'god exists'. but aside from personal testimony there's no reason to believe god exists, and religion's popularity is the only reason people act as though it takes some leap to not belief in something without evidence. no one would propose that belief in, i dunno, dragons and non-belief in dragons require equal amounts of faith and therefore they're just gonna sit this one out. its bullshit semantical fencesitting.

^_^

http://www.clydecaldwell.com/jpgs/large_images/dragon_steed.jpg

sweet ride

t'mboto

Nice dragon, mookie. Although I'm not sure those 'fuck off' spurs are necessary, given that said dragon is well bitted.

First assume we have a can-opener, basically.

TL;DR.

Mind you, back when Ma$e stopped rapping because he'd gotten religion, I had to seriously consider this as evidence of a benevolent God.

well, as far as christianity is concerned I'm atheist, but I think it is a leap of faith to claim that there is definitely no sort of paranormal agency. it's not a very hard leap of faith to make (and i myself believe it to be highly probable), but you can't totally rule out the possibility of any deic force unless you trust your own judgement to a certain extent....jeez the more i think about it, the more atheist i get.

you cant rule out the possibility of anything

only with supernatural religious bullshit do we make claims like this

does it take a leap of faith to assume the earth isn't hollow and populated with a secret nazi base that caused 9/11? yeah, i guess

paranormal agency
vvv
http://www.armyofinbetween.com/images/films/ghostbusters.jpg

I can't rule out the possibility that the world is full of mysterious particles and waves and little invisible fairies that have no effect on anything whatsoever, to include being completely useless even as a predictive tool for developing any testable hypotheses, so I guess that makes me a "doubter."

the earth isn't hollow and populated with a secret nazi base that caused 9/11

blasphemer

well, most or all current religions are chock full of supernatural fallacy IMO, but there are always going to be universal unknowns. my point is that i am only agnostic by default of pedantry; i'm largely on ethan's side in the great religious debate. certainly i wouldn't advocate subscribing to religious belief, but hey, although i severely doubt there's any kind of deity, i don't feel i can entirely rule it out and be 100% right for absolute certain. it doesn't affect the way i act or think.

it has been proved, for instance, that the earth is not hollow. but as for whether there is an overall force in a higher dimension that we can't detect which controls certain aspects of existence...although hugely improbable, we can't prove against it, nor should we try to. it really doesn't matter.

you can't prove the earth is not hollow - the nazis who live in the center developed a high-tech system that makes it seem to all scientific instruments as though it isn't

^^^ this is basically 'we can't know if there is or isnt a god'-logic

http://www.anointed-one.net/atheism.html

lol

fair enough, the improbability of your straw man probably approaches that of there being a god in the christian sense. :D

and probably in any sense, to be honest. whatever doubt there is, isn't worth paying much mind to. "pedantic atheist-agnostic" is henceforth my position on the matter.

xp

listen

something that is completely unfalsifiable is not "probable" or "improbable" it is a CONCEPT

i love concepts

...by which we measure our pain, right.
(xp)

inasmuch as the word god has any meaning it is in how we relate to that word and how that affects the way we as individuals use that relationship to inform our behavior in the world. to even pretend that god holds some meaning in terms of logical or scientific inquiry outside of observing the relationship between human behavior and their religious semiology is like step one on the path towards "science is just another religion"

the concept of inner-earth nazis doing a James Bond Invisible Car thing on seismic waves has a probability, and one which approaches 0 very very quickly.

how do you test for that? propose an experiment

show me how your experiment will prove or disprove the existence of this idea

oh wait the idea already exists, see, ethan wrote it down 22 minutes ago. it's there already, you can't disprove that it exists, therefore you might as well assume it does

we create a machine that can burrow into the centre of the earth. when it doesn't bump into a nazi, as expected, we know that the concept is a false one. or we just assume it doesn't exist because it is batshit.

no you said "the CONCEPT of inner-earth nazis." you were going to prove that the CONCEPT of inner-earth nazis had a probability approaching zero. DO YOU SEE.

i hate inner-earth nazis

we create a machine that can burrow into the centre of the earth. when it doesn't bump into a nazi, as expected, we know that the concept is a false one. or we just assume it doesn't exist because it is batshit.

-- Just got offed, Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:05 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

actually they have ways of hiding from this too. thats one of the essential qualities of hollow earth nazis, they can never be verified.

they can totally be verified! we're all writing about them right now! That's not enough for you? THANKS BIBLE

I see, but putting religious faith in a concept is stupid. People don't do it thinking they're buying into a concept, they believe it's real.

atheism is not a positive belief, it's lack of a belief. nothing can be 'proven' besides boring math stuff, and you can't disprove a non-testable hypothesis like 'god exists'. but aside from personal testimony there's no reason to believe god exists, and religion's popularity is the only reason people act as though it takes some leap to not belief in something without evidence. no one would propose that belief in, i dunno, dragons and non-belief in dragons require equal amounts of faith and therefore they're just gonna sit this one out. its bullshit semantical fencesitting.

I'm all for the honing of the God concept until it equals the absolutely unknowable and for that to be the placemarker for all that unimaginable stuff. That seems to be how the God concept has devolved, gradually being eaten up by knowledge and whathaveyou.

Agnosticism isn't bullshit semantical fencesiiting (not that you said it was), but is remaining silent about that which we cannot speak, so to speak.

calling yourself agnostic is also a good way to avoid having the same argument over and over again with boring people

Agnosticism isn't bullshit semantical fencesiiting (not that you said it was)

in fact this is what i said it was

but is remaining silent about that which we cannot speak, so to speak.

see above

god = fun fiction. bible = bestseller. threads on god = surefire.

people who consider thought or human love or whatever to be 'god' is like the crazy old cat lady who calls mr snugglepuss her husband.... you can call shit whatever the fuck you like but thats not gonna be your husband by anybody elses definition, just like calling philosophical concepts 'god' is weak ass bullshit

I think I might try and found a religion based around seismic-machine inner-earth-patrol nazis.

YES

xp

What is God? Dicksus.

xp

Ethan's last post is very OTM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenological_definition_of_God

the christian's last resort: batter you about the head and neck with the most spectacular bullshit I have ever seen :D

but aside from personal testimony there's no reason to believe god exists, and religion's popularity is the only reason people act as though it takes some leap to not belief in something without evidence. no one would propose that belief in, i dunno, dragons and non-belief in dragons require equal amounts of faith and therefore they're just gonna sit this one out. its bullshit semantical fencesitting.

this is sort of intellectually dishonest, dont you think? there are a lot more reasons to believe god exists than there are to believe that dragons exist.

Like what? There are pictures of both in storybooks.

well, like the fact that universe exists, right? i dont mean to be a dick but god is posited as an explanation for all sorts of things, from the creation of all existence to why some security guard shot a madman. dragons dont really serve the same purpose.

you can choose to believe in stuff that you like believing and challenge people to disprove it, but that doesn't make it true. i don't just believe that everything's possible regardless of evidence - any meaningful concept of god is not only unlikely but absolutely incompatible with any understanding of the universe

A theory that aliens killed JFK would "serve a purpose" of explaining who killed JFK. That wouldn't mean there was any reason to believe it was true.

And the fact that JFK was killed would not be evidence of that claim.

What Dr. Lisle has done is effectively disprove the precise type of atheism that he has defined into existance, which would be the one that requires that a mental abstraction must be located in a particular material object one could weigh or measure.

He did a very good job of proving that this brain dead, tone deaf, logic-impaired idea is not very bright.

However, rather than prove that any person on the face of the earth has ever subscribed to this idea (by the simple expedient of quoting such a person saying they believed this idea), he merely asserts that he has accurately characterized the atheist's point of view and leaves it there.

An intellectually honest debater refutes his opponent's arguments, as formed in his opponent's own words. An underhanded, dishonest, special-pleading, cowardly sneak goes about it as Dr. Lisle did.

And that's not even the best example, because it's a deliberate action. More like the fact that there's a leaf on your doorstep is not evidence that someone came and put it there. And the fact that a cloud looks kind of like a whale is not evidence that someone deliberately shaped the cloud.

but no one is ever going to say "the reason i believe in god is because this cloud is shaped like a whale"!

That we suspect the earth is hollow and filled with nazis at all is proof that this TRUTH is INHERENT in all of us. Some of us may choose to deny it, but that just shows that we know there is something to deny. As ethan (6.40) says, "the earth is hollow".

uh max, loads of people say pretty much exactly that. "Look at this leaf! It is clearly designed. BY GOD"

i mean, my grandmother might. if shere weren't a fanatical catholic.

xp

omg you're right! one time they had this special on the nashville news about a cinabon that looked exactly like mother theresa

but to me thats a different proposition--thats closer to "the reason i believe in god is because shit is complicated and i have difficulty with the idea that it works out this well without some guiding force" which, i dunno, regardless of how legitimate you might find that, is a reason to believe in god!

i mean, i guess... it's a reason but not a great reason. i'd rather believe in like a therapist.

Seriously max that's the dumbest argument I've ever heard.

all this is basically how many angels can dance on the head of a pin bullshit philosophical argument - at some point you need to actually make some workable assumptions with verifiable, measurable traits, and work with them as best we can. new stuff can come into that if miracles & shit start happening all over we can include that in our understanding but right now i try not to believe stuff unless it has a better argument than 'stuff exists, therefore a magical, infinite, conscious designer is responsible'

well, like the fact that universe exists, right? i dont mean to be a dick but god is posited as an explanation for all sorts of things, from the creation of all existence to why some security guard shot a madman. dragons dont really serve the same purpose.

-- max, Wednesday, 26 December 2007 18:33 (16 minutes ago) Link

see, in my belief system, dragons ARE responsible for grammy awards and home-school

just cuz you can't prove that god doesn't exist doesn't mean that he does.

Just because something is complicated or improbable doesn't make it any sort of a reason to believe shit, max.

lets try occam's razor on this:

atheists assume there's a complex universe which exists because of natural processes as we understand them

theists assume theres a complex universe which exists because an infinitely complex god who always existed created it, who has no origin because he is eternal & all-encompassing

which of these seems likelier? which one should we lean toward, with what we know about the universe?

The utility of a belief is not support for its truth, basically.

wait, what, sure it does. it just doesn't make it a reason that any one else should believe the same shit.

xps now this probably doesn't make sense

sorry im maybe not articulating myself very well--really the point i want to make is that it strikes me as either naive or dishonest to claim that theres "no reason" to believe in god. there are a million of them, and just because ILX doesnt think of them as legitimate doesnt make them non-reasons.

yeah evan's got it, it's still a reason, maybe not a very good one, but its a reason. whatever ethan said about religion's popularity was right; probably the biggest reason "westerners" believe in god is the incredible cultural and historical baggage associated with it

Well there was once "reason" to believe Jews were ritually slaughtering Christian babies and using their blood in baking Matzah. I suppose we shouldn't be so dismissive of other peoples' beliefs.

There are good reasons to have faith. In the sense that there is utility in believing a plausible falsehood, which provides solace, a sense of security and community. Don't make none of it true though. Yeay for instrumental truth value.

theres no shortage of dumb beliefs with lots of illegitimate reasons, and i dont see any reason for respecting any belief just because it has 'a million of them' - so does ufology, so does white supremacy, so does homeopathy, whatever

again let me reiterate, im not making any claims as to the legitimacy of people's reasons for their belief; i just think its sort of condescending to think that the reasons for joe christian's belief in god is somehow totally inadmissible!

not that this has anyhting to do with anything but occam was a franciscan!

haha i wish i hadnt said that abt occam it makes me look like im actually arguing that god exists or whatever, which i assure you I AM NOT

xposts

this is bullshit rivaling even the original article - 'people have lots of reasons! who cares how dumb they are, theres lots of them!'

yea i kinda agree max. but at the same time i lose a significant amount of regard for someone who does believe in god. i guess that sounds obnoxious, but they probably feel the same way about me for not believing!!

i just think its sort of condescending to think that the reasons for joe christian's belief in god is somehow totally inadmissible!

-- max, Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:12 PM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

its condescending to pander to the validity of those beliefs just because lots of people have them or because you want to prove you're better than a smug liberal atheist stereotype

look at me guys! im totally populist! im not a prick like chris hitchens! lets use belief in god to help pass healthcare reform!!

i won't disallow the possibility of there being a god, mostly because i think that the answer is totally irrelevant to say what i'm going to eat for lunch

i think believing in god because it makes you feel safe, or believing in god because you think a leaf is complicated are REALLY FUCKING STUPID REASONS TO BELIEVE IN GOD, ethan. im just saying--they are reasons! i dont even know why we're arguing about this, i just wanted to nitpick something you said because it seemed weird to me!!

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

i've disallowed it and i'm gonna order lunch too

you can't shave with occam's razor. It's just an invention of atheists who would deny god.

im just going to put this out there one more time before i go to dinner: I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT THESE REASONS TO BELIEVE IN GOD ARE LEGITIMATE; i just thought it was weird of ethan to say that there's no reason to believe in god

is it condescending or intellectually dishonest to avoid having to get in the same pointless arguments over and over again though?

Max, you're not reading the understood 'valid' in trife's original statement.

What you're arguing is meaningless. Yes, there are 'reasons' people believe in God, just as there are reason a schizophrenic thinks the government is out to get him. All beliefs have 'reasons.'

Tombot ftw

but aside from personal testimony there's no reason to believe god exists

this is the initial claim you went apeshit over & wasted our time arguing about. i wasnt saying that personal testimony is the only reason people believe in god, but, with god as a human-created concept, there's no reason to believe god exists besides personal testimony. unlike carbon atoms and the laws of thermodynamics and nebulae and shit which exist whether people believe in them or not.

I think most people nowadays realize that their belief in god is personal and incoherent

im pretty sure most theists consider there to be concrete, provable explanations for their beliefs and dont play bullshit subjective reality games defining god

HAHAHAHAHAHA personal and incoherent

i spent xmas eve with a woman (FBI agent) who had her house exorcised after something bad happened there (a funny story, actually! ask me sometime). her rationale: if it's bullshit, no loss, if it isn't, yay. like, what's it hurt. i'm cool with that.

i think the reason everyone's knives come out for Crazy Believers is because, in a way, a belief in an interventionist and personal god basically requires imposing your beliefs on other people, whether they like (or even know) it or not. not a problem if you're just frowning on your neighbor's behavior, but a serious problem when you're starting wars or running schools

sorry for wasting your valuable time on the "Proof that God exists!" thread

I would like to think that, I'm pretty sure they don't realise that though.

xp

Actually I'm really not sure what "most people" think about their view of god. If it's knowingly personal and incoherent, I have no problem with it.

That "Phenomenological definition of God" upthread is still the most wondrously batshit thing I have ever not even attempted to get my head around. If they can't get to you with reason they'll hypnotise you with reams of nonsense.

actually that's a hilarious thought. if god-believers just know that they're completely inane, but believe anyway.

her rationale: if it's bullshit, no loss, if it isn't, yay. like, what's it hurt. i'm cool with that.

wasted money + lack of critical thinking skills

im pretty sure most theists consider there to be concrete, provable explanations for their beliefs and dont play bullshit subjective reality games defining god

i totally disagree with this but ill bet that this is an atlanta vs. new york/LA thing

^ ethan stole my post xpost

sorry for wasting your valuable time on the "Proof that God exists!" thread

-- max, Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:25 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

srsly. aren't half of us just sitting at home in pajamas anyway

i mean i'm assuming you have to pay for an exorcism, right?

aren't there any ppl who believe in god around here? what a haven for heathens!!

ogeez i'm not in jammies anymore ; (

xp, it depends -- i mean brand label exorcisms are really pricy.

it's her money to spend. if she wants to spend a saturday morning walking around the house with a priest muttering incantations, whatever. personal and incoherent.

i wish i believed in gawd

that actually sounds really, really fun

I'm in jim-jams! And let's not bring the Confederacy into this, shall we?

GBX, did you give her a good exorcism?

http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-hazards.htm

^^^ polly klass's dad

In truth, that psychic detectives contribution to the case was counter productive. As always seems to be the case with psychic predictions, her interference created distraction. Law enforcement resources are diverted toward useless endeavors as phantom leads disappear into thin air. One cold and dark November evening many of us were lurking around somebody’s property because the psychic said that it held the key to my daughter’s disappearance. With the heightened sense of paranoia that already existed in the community that property owner would have been well within his rights to blow us away on the spot for trespassing. We were very fortunate that night, because although he did angrily confront us, he had absolutely nothing to do with the crime we were investigating.

In the end, and despite their protests, there is not even one case of a psychic truly assisting or solving a missing child case. It’s just smoke and mirrors. Their references do not support their claims and law enforcement cannot acknowledge their existence. Instead, their wishful thinking collides with your desperate hope and leaves you diminished.

Unfortunately, the next time a little child is kidnapped and mom and dad reach the end of their emotional string the vague, empty promises of the psychic detective will rebound off the stark walls of the missing child’s bedroom and a photo or toy will be palmed as the negotiations are engaged.

btw im at work & we just ordered pizza

LUCKYYY! i'm at work debating what sandwich to order...

i wish god could just tELL me i hate making decisions

i'm at home, gonna make a frozen pizza

interestingly, this woman was not the only person at this xmas party who had had an exorcism. our other neighbor (coolest lady ever!) had an exorcism after some ghost problems. it worked, apparently.

ok i actually am wasting my time because im late for dinner, cant wait to return to this thread when it has 500+ posts and dally has showed up

too much -- what an entertaining party!!

dinner! forgot you were overseas ;-) havfun

our other neighbor (coolest lady ever!) had an exorcism after some ghost problems. it worked, apparently

probably psychological?

Curious how FBI woman had an exorcism performed? Couldn't be a real Catholic deal - so did she look up witch doctors in the yellow pages or something?

i rly think a preventative exorcism would be a great xmas present

un preservatif exorcisme

i rly need to buy The Exorcist NOW. top 5

pretty sure it was a real catholic deal, i think? other lady, not really sure. she has her own religion (fact!), and treated her cancer with crystal therapy for a while (this was a bad idea). she also recently found a stash of 60s porn amongst her recently deceased sister's belongings, and told me that i should make some inquiries with any arty/photo-y types i know

These threads always run away from the possibility of discussion, through the sheer volume of noise.

As for Occam's Razor, it favors the atheist. However much an invocation of a creator god might seem to inject simplicity into the hypothesis by giving it a focal point, a bit more investigation discovers that the addition of God merely moves the complexity to a further remove without adding any explanatory power, and adds one more layer of inexplicability to account for.

To wit:

Q: Why is this universe here?
Atheist: I don't know. It just is.

Q: Why is this universe here?
Xtian: God made it! Hallelujah!
Q: Why is there God?
Xtian: I can't say because it is a deep mystery.

wow she would have been the lady i talked to for the whole night.

i keep wanting to say something about theology being interesting, and having tons of little 'moments of value' in it; i don't think i could adequately talk about my own understanding of human existence and the universe (maaan) w/o cribbing from milton and spinoza and whoever.

the contemporary american evangelical God is a pretty meager and pagan thing, to be frank: a bearded comic book hero with a set of domestic policy goals and an eye on every set of genitalia. and it's a recent conception, too: a scrappy, envious little warrior god surrounded by enemies (the dncc, ilx, vaginas, europe, etc).

so, theologies that 'reduce' god to love or the sum of existence etc, aren't 'crazy cat lady' so much as... the actual set of ideas worked out, and widely held by all, before modern technocapitalist rationalism knocked god off his perch forever. the 'God' we tilt against today is just what's been left over.

I like that ethan says investing in a sophisticated con is wasted money, this is another interesting point for discussion:

places of worship and reprints of holy books should all have to have the "for entertainment purposes only" disclaimer on them, y/n, why not

what level of fraud should be prosecuted? Is investing in a con front business and losing all your money any different from paying for someone to cold-read you over the phone for half an hour and tell you a bunch of shit you already know?

illusionists are not always upfront that everything you see is a trick, but most of them don't bother trying to imply that they can really connect with some supernatural hoo-hah. Why can't all of this shit work the same way, or at least be treated the same way under the law as most confidence schemes?

gff makes jehovah sound like Yosemite Sam

i sell you a cancer-curing drug, i go to jail

i sell you a cancer-curing god, no problemo

modern churches (maybe all churches ever) are basically just social fraternal orders, like elks club with magic

you forgot profit-taking churches like those prosperity ministries that were all over the news a while ago

and what said earlier: at some point you need to actually make some workable assumptions with verifiable, measurable traits, and work with them as best we can

This is and what's key assumption. He's using the terms "workable" and "measurable" to state what he demands from a demonstration, including a demonstration of God. Lots of religious believers have thought that if you make these demands, you've closed yourself off to any demonstration of God. Some people have wondered why we ought to make these demands (the "workable" and "measurable" business).

I guess I think that given those assumptions, atheism is more than likely the most rational choice. But why make those assumptions?

Anyway, I'm just doing what bullshitting philosophers do, which is try to make clearer people's assumptions.

by workable & measurable, i mean stuff that exists outside of your own head

w/r/t the article that heads this thread: yes it's amazingly stupid and full of yawning holes but what always strikes me is the strong whiff of desperation about it. you can't compose a sentence like "Laws of logic require the existence of God—and not just any god, but the Christian God" in the 21st century w/o everyone knowing that you're just kidding yourself. no Christian ever believed that statement before our era.

this is the same reason i can understand that peoples dreams are important to them without actually literally thinking my little brother was chased by dinosaurs last night

gff the pentateuch makes jehovah sound like Yosemite Sam

http://www.tlonh.com/_images/articles/hollow_earth_complete_shell_model.gif

http://herso.freeservers.com/images/hollowearth.jpg

The Hollow Earth Theory has been around for a long time. While the first concepts were crude, this 'crazy' idea has slowly developed into a viable alternative to the solid Earth model. In light from today's technology, many of our findings point towards a hollow structure as the only method to explain many of today's scientific findings.

ur Earth is Hollow!

Located at 84.4 degrees North and South Latitude are Polar Openings
that lead into the hollow interior of our planet where the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel today dwell
in perfect harmony, with life spans equal to those of the Methuselahs of the Bible,
whose only desire is to live in peace. Their flying saucers in defense of their
country at times are seen on our surface world. They don't come to destroy, they are waiting...

Waiting for us to discover
that world peace is the only answer, not without God, but WITH Him.

We Must Prepare for Their Return...

See the evidence, look at the possibilities, consider those who have gone there, and you will discover truths that
have been hidden from the foundation of the world...

Join us on our Voyage of Discovery...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Sam_%28shortwave%29

Rodney M. Cluff
From the Author...

As a young man, I had two favorite subjects, science and religion. In my study, it became my conviction that ultimately science and religion will become one and the same, science being the study of God's creation; and religion consisting of the revelations of God to mankind. Both are ultimately manifestations of the truth of all things given to man by God in His infinite kindness and love to bring about the happiness of His children. It is from the Book of Mormon, an ancient text of scripture written by ancient American prophets of God that I gained the desire to obtain the object of both true religion and true science: the search for the truth of all things. The ancient American prophet of the Book of Mormon concluded this book of scripture with a perfect scientific test anyone can perform on that book to know it is of God. Moroni wrote 421 A.D.:

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

It is by application of this scientific test to that book of ancient American scripture that I came to a knowledge that it is of God, because God did answer my prayer and let me know by the power of the Holy Ghost of its truthfulness. Millions of Latter-day Saints have performed this same test and received the same answer of the divinity of this book. Therefore, it could be said that Mormonism is a scientific religion. The acquisition of this one precious truth has given me the impulse to discover the ultimate: the truth of all things. And my search has not been in vain. In fact, my search is a much more efficient one because my hits in the dark are much more infrequent when I have the power of the Holy Ghost to lighten the way to the next truth. Thus my search has been an exciting one and I hope some of the things I have uncovered concerning this earth of ours will be as exciting to you as it has been to me.

Would you like to receive a free copy of The Book of Mormon? Then click here.

http://www.ourhollowearth.com/ourhollo/rod.jpg

is Tahiti Denmark Florida Calif. Italy the hollow world version of NYLPM?

RODNEY M. CLUFF, author of World Top Secret: Our Earth Is Hollow! was born and raised in the American colony of Colonia Juarez in northern Mexico. He became interested in the Hollow Earth Theory at the age of 16 while working on a New Mexico farm where the farm manager told the workers of the theory. He thought, What an ideal place for the Lord to hide the Lost Tribes of Israel!

After graduating from high school, Mr. Cluff served a full-time mission for the LDS Church in Mexico where he met his wife. One year after his release, they were married in the Arizona Temple and now have five lovely children and nine lovelier grandchildren!

They moved to Phoenix, Arizona, and one day Mr. Cluff noticed an advertisement of Raymond Bernard's book, The Hollow Earth in a tabloid newspaper. He sent for it and thereby began many years of study and writing which has led to the present work. Today, Mr. Cluff works as a computer programmer/analyst, and continues his research into evidences for hollow planets as a hobby.

He firmly believes: OUR EARTH IS HOLLOW! Backed with scientific evidence, including satellite photos of the polar holes, analysis of the observations of polar explorers, analysis of earthquake data and much more--coupled with evidence from the scriptures that the Lost Tribes of Israel are now FOUND within the Hollow of Our Earth, he presents his argument in favor of the Hollow Earth Theory.

It is his hope that someday, he may have the privilege of visiting his cousins of the Ten Tribes in the North Countries of the Hollow Earth! The author's own ancestry is of Israelitish origin, of the Tribe of Ephraim, and can be traced back to the Exile of the Ten Tribes from Palestine when they were carried captive into Assyria in 721 B.C.

The Ten Tribes were held captive for over a century by the Assyrians, but then escaped over the Caucasus mountains sometime before Babylon conquered Assyria in 605 B.C. They made their home in the region of the Crimea and the Steppe of Russia just north of the Black Sea up until the first century B.C. While there, they were ruled by an illustrious leader named Odin. The Roman armies threatened to conquer the region so his ancestors, because of their fierce love of freedom and independence, determined to migrate. From their custom of burying their dead in burial mounds, their migrations have been traced from the Black Sea up the valley of the river Dnieper in Russia to the Baltic Sea and from thence to northern Germany and Scandinavia.

One branch of these people became known as the Sakae or Saxons and settled in Northern Germany. Shortly after the Romans left the British Isles in the fourth century A.D., certain Celtic tribes of the British Isles invited the Engles, Saxons, and Jutes (who had previously raided the east coast of England as pirates) to bring their bands over and help defeat other Celts. From the eighth to the eleventh century they were known as the Scandinavian Vikings. They became the most volatile seapower and military force in Europe. They often attacked coastal areas with fleets that ran into the hundreds of ships and highly organized armies of several thousand. The French became weary of being looted each harvest season and so they invited the Vikings to accept a large section of France and raise their own crops. The Norsemen agreed and the territory became known as Normandy, or loved of the Norsemen.

The Author's Clough-Cluff forefathers were of the Saxon Vikings who settled Normandy in France. They came to England with William The Conqueror in 1066 A.D. In the distribution of lands among his officers, a large estate fell to one CLOUGH in Yorkshire. This estate has been transmitted from father to son until the present time and is known as the Esquire Clough Estate, and is situated about 26 miles from the old city of York, from which the Pilgrim Fathers sailed in 1620 for the New World.

In the year 1635, fifteen years after the first Pilgrims immigrated to America, at about the age of l9 to 2l, John Clough with his brother sailed from London, England on the Clipper ship The Elizabeth. Upon arriving in America, John Clough settled in Massachusetts. One of his descendants, David Cluff, changed the spelling of his last name when he joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (commonly known as the Mormons) in 1830. Therefore, all Cluff's in the world, to this author's knowledge, are descendants of this David Cluff, whose ancestry can be traced back through the Saxon Vikings to the Tribe of Ephraim of the House of Israel.

OMG, Ethan must have gotten his idea from this!

After opening a door he was told not to enter and touching a mysterious box inside, every citizen in the village is frozen. The only person not affected by the curse, the Elder of Crysta, guides him to resurrect the continents of the world in order to unfreeze the people. A way out of his hometown appears, and for the first time ever a human being leaves Crysta to explore the underworld which is portrayed as a frozen wasteland of imposing crystal mountains, crossed by rivers of magma. He conquers the trials of the five towers - each representing one continent - and revives the mainland of the Earth. Upon returning to his hometown, the Elder instructs him to travel to the overworld and to resurrect all living beings. With a heavy heart, Ark says goodbye to his lifelong devoted friend Elle and sets out to the Lightside.

Having crossed a dimensional crevasse that closed itself after his appearance on the overworld, Ark is confronted with the barren land that once was the Earth's surface. His first task is to free the giant tree Ra from the parasite he is afflicted with. This causes the resurrection of all plants in the world resulting in Ark's being able to cross the mountains of Guyana. He travels further into the world, reviving birds, the wind, animals and eventually mankind.

After that, the Elder appears to Ark in a dream and tells him to keep helping humankind grow, as the world is still in the fledgling stages. He continues his journey, traveling and expanding cities, assisting with the invention of groundbreaking technologies and ultimately, freeing the ingenious Beruga from his sleep in a cryogenic chamber. The professor provides Ark with an insight into his personal image of the paradise. He envisions a perfect world by killing all insignificant life with a virus named Asmodeus and turning everyone else into immortal beings. Ark tries to attack Beruga after this revealing twist but is stopped by robots, injuring him heavily.

The Elder once again appears to him, saying that his mission is fulfilled and he may now pass away. Ark realizes that he's been used by Evil to lead the power which created him to world domination. Just as he is about to die, Kumari, a wise human who watched the world's growth through reincarnation, teleports Ark out of Beruga's laboratory. He then instructs him to go search the five Starstones and to lay them at the grave at time's end in order to call the golden child. Ark obtains the stones one after another and sets them into skull statues at Dry Valley, the location at the South Pole where the final confrontation between Good and Evil once took place. This leads to the appearance of Ark's Lightside self, the person Evil - now given the name Dark Gaia - used to create Ark himself. He tells him that he's the legendary hero and then kills him.

However, Ark is reborn through the power of Good, Light Gaia, and departs to defeat Beruga. After having conquered the professor, he returns to the underworld to defeat Dark Gaia. The victory over that entity brings forth the destruction of the Darkside. In the end, however, a major purpose is served and Ark, although sealing what appears to be his own demise as well, realizes he and all of his loved ones are bound to meet again in future reincarnations. Thus he goes to sleep, after being told that he, as creator and defender, is what the outside world would call a "god".

i believe in the hallow earth!

http://greyfalcon.us/picturesh/reed3.jpg

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SPN1ZNA5L.jpg

From their custom of burying their dead in burial mounds, their migrations have been traced from the Black Sea up the valley of the river Dnieper in Russia to the Baltic Sea and from thence to northern Germany and Scandinavia.

Wait a second. Did the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel use burial mounds before they were captured by Assyria and escaped over the Caucasus, or only after they escaped?

Wouldn't the present day Israelite tribes of the diaspora continue to make burial mounds, too?

gff totally otm upthread

Terranigma was a cool game you dooshbags

It infuriates me how christians insert bible quotes into their 'logical' arguments for god's existence. I do not believe in the bible, that's not going to sway me one jot.

Proof that God exists:

http://cdn.last.fm/coverart/300x300/2031483-1352787762.jpg

^^^picked this up the other day for $1. The Lord Hath Smiled Down Upon Me.

their message that “there is no God.”

"lol"

I've always thought that Terranigma would make a great song, like Scott Walker's take on the Seventh Seal; only trouble is, whoever did it would probably botch the lyrics.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/tapestore/frankensteins_cousin_grave_md_wht_2.gif

Jesus Christ! Outspoken atheists are just as annoying as fanatical Christians.

You can discuss this all you want, but no one really knows the answer to the proposed question. So when you shove your belief in others' faces (as if it's 100% true), you just come across as a dickhead to realists (agnostics, in this case).

:) http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/tapestore/dancepeanutdance.gif

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/tapestore/sad.jpg

^^^ That, too

uh oh

YOU'RE RETARDED

ain't nothing like animated gifs to humiliate your opponent

http://www.sweetsncandy.co.uk/prodimages/milfis_l.jpg

^^^^
proof that white chocolate exists

gah i suck and am hungover

http://www.sweetsncandy.co.uk/prodimages/milfis_l.jpg

still: milfis?

I went to church for a little while in high school. I was very much a loner when I was 15 and felt empty and plus my parents sort of forced me to go to youth group because they thought it was good for me to interact with other people.

I remember being in this fundie church though that had a workbook we worked out of that was the biggest piece of shit propaganda ever.

One shining quote (it was from someone famous but I can't remember who) used the logic that the Bible could not have been merely an 'invention' of good people, because if it was, the 'good' people would be telling a lie, which would mean they were not good. Furthermore, the book explained, the Bible could not have been invented by 'bad' people because they would be condemning themselves.

The quote concluded that therefore, as a result, that proved the book was a Divine work and thus true.

I don't know what was more alarming, the insulting logic used or the idiots that accepted it as a valid argument.

I'm probably a hopeless optimist, but I think the core reasons for believing in God will tend to be a little more subtle and difficult than the OMG LEAVES! and OMG CLOUDS! and OMG EYES! line of thinking. When we get to questions from "why can't I conceive of space and time as being finite OR infinite?" to the more religion-specific "why do I feel like I'm levitating as my heart bursts out of my chest when I hear this hymn?", surely we're talking about examples where finding the most convincing explanation to be "because there is a God" isn't really so awful and absurd a line of thinking?

Original article is nonsense, obv.

this is the same reason i can understand that peoples dreams are important to them without actually literally thinking my little brother was chased by dinosaurs last night

this is like one of the greatest things I've ever read

I'm probably a hopeless optimist, but I think the core reasons for believing in God will tend to be a little more subtle and difficult than the OMG LEAVES! and OMG CLOUDS! and OMG EYES! line of thinking. When we get to questions from "why can't I conceive of space and time as being finite OR infinite?" to the more religion-specific "why do I feel like I'm levitating as my heart bursts out of my chest when I hear this hymn?", surely we're talking about examples where finding the most convincing explanation to be "because there is a God" isn't really so awful and absurd a line of thinking?

-- Merdeyeux, Sunday, December 30, 2007 3:08 PM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

how is refusing to dispel your own ignorance is a better reason than OMG CLOUDS

ignorance about what?

When we get to questions from "why can't I conceive of space and time as being finite OR infinite?" to the more religion-specific "why do I feel like I'm levitating as my heart bursts out of my chest when I hear this hymn?", surely we're talking about examples where finding the most convincing explanation to be "because there is a God" isn't really so awful and absurd a line of thinking?

there are valid explanations for those things which are available to anyone unless you're so lazy and uncurious you just say 'god did it' to every question

"why do I feel like I'm levitating as my heart bursts out of my chest when I hear this hymn?"

individual religious devotion proves that god exists? so was jim jones god?

http://www.kingsizemagazine.se/bilder/jimjones.jpg

but those examples aren't the same as the cop-out leaves sure are fancy, ain't they? examples. When you're talking about what people perceive as direct encounters with a transcendent other, scientific reduction of that isn't necessarily enough to satisfy the questions and neuter the thoughts the experiences bring up. It doesn't mean that Jim Jones was God or that Christian God is God, but it also doesn't mean that to deal with these experiences in a religious way is necessarily choosing ignorance over bothering to learn.

look, ethan, i may agree with you on this issue, and you may indeed be right, but you're not gonna get far by being so abrasive. if you want to convince people that they're being misled by a vast religious corporation, be funny, be reasonable, and don't go on the offensive at the drop of a hat. it's not like ILX is a gigantic christian commune you've somehow got to fight your way out of.

thanks for the advice louis jagger

it's not like ILX is a gigantic christian commune you've somehow got to fight your way out of.

;)

;)

ethan p4dgett is...THE SECULATOR

modern churches (maybe all churches ever) are basically just social fraternal orders, like elks club with magic

-- and what, Wednesday, December 26, 2007 7:51 PM (4 days ago) Bookmark Link

yeah i think there is something to this. but i'm not sure whats wrong w/that. we are social creatures. we need community. that doesn't makes churches bad or good. other things do though!

e didn't you used to get all aggro on me when I'd get all irrationally pissed off at Xians y/n

ain't nothing like animated gifs to humiliate your opponent

Yes, right behind all caps name-calling

Whatever. ThatThis thread was shitty from the start; i only acted obnoxious to get some sort of revenge for my wasted time (the thread should have some attached note: "don't waste your time on this pretentious discussion; instead read d'Holbach")

-- Tape Store, Friday, December 28, 2007 7:07 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Link

e didn't you used to get all aggro on me when I'd get all irrationally pissed off at Xians y/n

-- J0hn D., Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:25 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

lol contrarianism

e didn't you used to get all aggro on me when I'd get all irrationally pissed off at Xians y/nsay ann coulter was pretty

-- J0hn D., Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:25 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

lol I have actually mellowed in my "their shit is so annoyingly irrational" stance this year, although the threadstarting question is like GOD DAMN YOU GUYS QUIT TALKING BULLSHIT PLZ

pretty much any time you see the term "worldview," that's your signal to locate the exits imo

the materialistic atheist's worldview

http://www.uffsite.net/ff4/images/maps/overworld.jpg

i know what map that is. i am sad.

I've been to Chocobo Forest sometime in my life.

I did not know what map that was, but did recognize several similarities between it and the world of dragon quest viii. clearly, god is involved.