rolling 2008 disgruntled shootings thread

It's the end times, you guys. From now on I'm going to assume everybody I see is on the verge of mass murder unless they charm me with social skills.

that Kirkwood Mo. shit is a few blocks from my parents' house, I was just there at Christmas. very messed up.

when they interviewed the shooter's family on the tv news and asked his mom and brother whether they had any indication that he had it in him to kill five people they were so unapologetic that the reporter was speechless. their reaction was basically "well the city went to war on him, he went to war back and here's what they got." wtf.

"I guess he targeted the people that he felt were persecuting him"

b-more represent

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22979416/

disgruntled shootings = slave revolts according to Martin Ames:

http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-82-4

http://www.buffalobeast.com/88/ames.htm

http://buffalobeast.com/116/massacreguide1.gif

ok srs waus @ "LOL YELLOW MAN"

disgruntled shootings = slave revolts according to Martin Ames:

-- Gavin, Saturday, February 9, 2008 5:25 PM

oversimplifying a tad i think

ah just read that interview link nvm

disgruntled shootings = slave revolts according to Martin Ames:

http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-82-4

http://www.buffalobeast.com/88/ames.htm

-- Gavin, Saturday, 9 February 2008 17:25

"A really fucking pathetic excuse for a society, today’s Americans, and in fact they’re a good argument in favor of abandoning democracy for something like a military junta. Except that sadly, there’s nothing most Americans would like more than to be ruled by a brutal military junta, so it wouldn’t teach them anything."

No offence to USAers, but the bluntness of that made me LOL.

http://www.wisn.com/news/15260397/detail.html

The land of cheese and cheese by-products chimes in.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/14/university.shooting/index.html

Reports: At least 18 shot at Illinois university
At least 18 people have been shot at Northern Illinois University outside Chicago, CNN affiliates are reporting. The university has ordered its student body to seek shelter and canceled classes. developing story

yeah a dude i know apparently just walked by one of the bodies (!!!!)

whoa

ffs

what did someone decide to do a chicago valentine's day massacre redux jesus h christ

just confirmed my brother who graduated from NIU in December and still gives lessons there was not on campus today.

jesus this shit does not cease to scare the shit out of me

LTV reports that Kishwaukee Medical Center in DeKalb is currently treating six people with head wounds.

i know a bunch of ppl who went to school there ... crazy

goddamnit

Kishwaukee Medical Center = where I was born

At the end of this story:

Still, once the immediate danger had passed, Gailey said he was concerned how the media would cover this latest incident.

"The person who did it is a loser," said Gailey, a second-year law student from Indiana. "He doesn't deserve a name or picture reference. You're not Kurt Cobain if you do that."

WHAT does it take to be Kurt Cobain these days?

1. Write depressing songs.
2. Kill self.

No guarantee it will work though - you may still just end up being Elliott Smith.

owch.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44430000/jpg/_44430480_ap203250bodystephen.jpg

Shit is crazy.

Yeah, my cousin goes there. In a panic, I checked his Facebook profile yesterday to make sure he was OK.

because if he'd gotten shot he would have updated his profile to read LOL I AM SHOT?

Jaymc's Cousin has added new photos to the album: SHOOTING PICS

I feel so sad when I see these guys' faces. I am just a softhearted softheaded person. I always dimly remember some WB cartoon, a Bugs Bunny one where affecting an Irish priest defending a Dead End kid Bugs says: "He had a mother once." And then I feel really sad. It's just so fucked up and there's nothing for it, whatever was wrong with dude I wish somebody had been able to help him fix it but instead he's dead and so are a lot of people and what an asshole move and how many sad friends and parents and how many assholes are gonna cop camera/mic time with their useless theories of what might be done to prevent this shit or who to punish in order to prevent it.

xxp Uh, because if he had logged in after the shooting occurred, it would mean he wasn't shot. And predictably, his Wall was already full of high school friends at other colleges asking him if he was OK, to which he said yes.

that is a confused sentence I don't mean that the sad friends and parents are assholes. I mean there's just a lot of awful fallout and some of it is sad friends & parents and then some of it is assholes.

r u high dood

sorry jaymc, that was crass, just don't know why you wouldn't have called him? maybe you don't have his digits though.

and yeah this shit is awful and horrible and but maybe that's how people check in these days :/

it is how people check in these days.

Nope, don't have his digits, and we're not that close, since he's like 8 years younger than I am.

It's probably easier for someone near a shooting to post "I'm fine" on the internet and go sit alone for the rest of the day than to field a stream of calls from every friend or relative on the phone list.

Except mothers, who are allowed to call and check in any time anything explodes, collapses, or gets shot anywhere within a three-county radius of wherever you live, even if it was a nursing home or something ("You could have been volunteering! Don't blame me for not knowing how you spend your time, you never call")

ex girlfriends do this^^ too :\

ive gotten an ex-girlfriend-are-you-dead call and it was really awkward

no amon I am just kinda freaked out and this stuff really depresses me.

xp Ha, my friend Kumail is a stand-up comic and has a bit about the exact same thing: his mom always calling every time anything bad happens in Chicago, regardless of the likelihood that he might have been involved. Maybe it's an immigrant-parent thing? (He's Pakistani.)

it's really weird trudging off to class every time something like this happens

ppl talk about looking for exits in clubs after the great white fire and i honestly can't help but do the same every time i go into a classroom/lecture hall now

this story is depressing:

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8272585

ppl talk about looking for exits in clubs after the great white fire and i honestly can't help but do the same every time i go into a classroom/lecture hall now

we had to give a lecture to students on "the cone of death". basically if you're inside a classroom and you hear shots outside, you want to look at the door. from the door, there's a sixty degree "cone of death". if the door is in a corner, one edge of the angle of the cone is the perpendicular wall. if it's in the middle of a wall, the cone of death is thirty degrees on either side of a line perpendicular to the center of the doorway.

when you hide, you want to hide outside the cone of death. in other words, if the doorway is part of a wall, you want to run up and hide low and *against* that wall, preferably behind a desk or something, so that a shooter looking in through the door has the lowest chance of seeing you.

we also made sure everyone knew how to drop the window shutters (so a shooter can't see in the windows) and showed slides of different ways to build structures out of desks to block doors. hint: flip the bottom layer upside down and the middle layer sideways, so that the legs of the desks form a big tangle that can't be broken up.

I always assumed mom check-ins were one of those things that's not limited to immigrant parents, but maybe that's wrong, and not enough Americans have learned how to show love through an overdeveloped sense of worry

(My mother actually left a voicemail mentioning the thing I mentioned above, about this being the hospital where she had me)

omg cone of death seminar wtf

if this thing thats so rare that every time it happens its on the news were to happen here this is what you do

wow @ "the cone of death"!! xp

I'm thinking mom-worry is extremely high up there as far as the universality of human experience scale goes.

triple xpost
"cone of death" wau

jhoshea otm

It's taking television news school of alarmism to the next logical level.

personally i don't think it's something to not keep in mind

to some extent i think it's about liability. nobody wants a "you didn't properly prep my kids for a shooting rampage" lawsuit.

i was not informed of the cone of death!

Am I the only one thinking "wow I'm glad I read that, thanks Gear"? Like I think about this shit when I'm in auditorium classrooms now. Good to know.

To be honest, I think that if I had kids or something, I would think about that sort of thing much more. As it is, I tend to be kinda fatalistic about this kinda stuff, and imagine that I would rely on instincts to get through that sort of a situation. Hide under desk, shit pants, etc.

?

What needs explanation? I'm just saying, if I had kids I would be much more oriented towards self-preservation.

I think Gear is confused that BIG HOOS aka the steendriver is thanking him for posting a story about a kid dying. I'm guessing that BIG HOOS aka the steendriver meant to thank Vahid for the "cone of death" post.

Oh, okay. Pseudonymnal confusion.

I think Gear is confused that BIG HOOS aka the steendriver is thanking him for posting a story about a kid dying. I'm guessing that BIG HOOS aka the steendriver meant to thank Vahid for the "cone of death" post.

-- jaymc, Friday, February 15, 2008 11:27 PM

oh wow sorry

i think i remember who everyone is, then i don't.

you know what you oughtta start...

big_hoos.xls?

no, paying attention

oh he told you

thanks, i'll be here all week

whiplash

mark ames offers more half-baked ivory tower theories on the latest rampage

http://www.alternet.org/story/77226/

and with that can we refrain from posting his drivel again in this thread. guy's an idiot.

Sheesh I am getting sick of hearing everyone in my classes say "they should kick anyone on psychiatric meds out of college. If the crazies want to kill themselves, fine, but don't take me with!" To which I reply, "That's pretty cynical, mental illness is a very broad spectrum that effects many people, facts facts facts." And I've stood on this box of 24 soaps so many times.

Whine whine whine. I told John, "The next few months is just going to be fear and loathing of the mentally ill," and he laughed and said, "Hahaha, you think this is the first time they've been criminalized?" Sad but true.

http://www.newsobserver.com/front/story/968432.html

Mock gunman terrifies students
Elizabeth City State drill sours

An armed man who burst into a classroom at Elizabeth City State University was role-playing in an emergency response drill, but neither the students nor assistant professor Jingbin Wang knew that.

"I was prepared to die at that moment," Wang said Tuesday.

The Friday drill, in which a mock gunman threatened panicked students in the American foreign policy class with death, prompted university officials to apologize this week to Wang and offer counseling to faculty and students.

o_O!

"I was prepared to die at that moment, because of the Wang"

^ beat me to it

Disgruntled, apparently racist Immigrations & Customs Enforcement officer goes batshit, starts shooting at his colleaugues & neighbors through the walls of his apartment.

Pa. Teen Hero Nabbed for Break-In

By KATHY MATHESON – 1 day ago

NORRISTOWN, Pa. (AP) — A teenager who was labeled a hero and met President Bush after turning in a boy who planned a high school attack admitted in juvenile court Friday that he had recently broke into the wannabe attacker's home.

The 14-year-old told a judge that he was involved in two break-ins into the other teen's home in the past few weeks. Two other ninth-graders also admitted they went into Dillon Cossey's Plymouth Township home through an unlocked rear window at least once.

Prosecutors told the judge the teens took air guns, CDs, cash, jewelry, DVDs, video games and video game accessories.

All three teens were found delinquent and will be sentenced within a month. They could be sentenced, at most, to juvenile detention until they turn 21.

Brian McLaughlin, attorney for the tipster teen, wouldn't discuss why his client had broken into the home, saying "it's obviously something he didn't think through." He said the teen had "a lot of notoriety to deal with at such a young age."

"He's been through a lot," McLaughlin said. "He's a good kid."

Authorities were alerted to the teens' involvement by officials at Plymouth Whitemarsh High School, where the defendants are students. The tipster allegedly tried to sell some of the stolen goods to classmates, who reported him to school officials, Assistant District Attorney Sharon Giamporcaro said.

Last year, Cossey was sentenced to up to seven years in a juvenile treatment center after admitting that he had planned to attack Plymouth Whitemarsh High School. Authorities do not think Cossey was close to pulling it off; he had no ammunition.

Cossey, who was home-schooled, had told his friend that he wanted to stage an attack similar to the 1999 assault on Columbine High School in Colorado because "the world would be better off without bullies," according to prosecutors.

The 14-year-old friend then told authorities, who searched Cossey's Plymouth Township home on Oct. 11. They found a 9 mm rifle, about 30 air-powered guns modeled to look like higher-powered weapons, swords, knives, a bomb-making book, videos of the Columbine attack and violence-filled notebooks.

Bush briefly met with the informant at Philadelphia International Airport in late October on his way to a private fundraiser.

The Associated Press does not typically identify juveniles in routine criminal cases.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/15474521/detail.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/six-dead-in-us-shooting/2008/03/04/1204402429697.html

Is this new?

yup

bad times.

Jesus Christ we've revived this thread a lot in the course of three weeks.

http://www.examiner.com/a-1369293~Gun_jam_prevented_more_casualties__police_say.html?cid=temp-popular

http://www3.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO77049/

^creepy

O_O

what the hell? this was on site new answers

heave is on the prowl

naturally

this should get the thread rolling again
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7416120.stm

"The offer is proving popular - sales have quadrupled so far"

the great state of missouri

He added that the promotion was inspired by recent comments from one of the Democratic nominees for the presidential election, saying: "We did it because of Barack Obama.

"He said all those people in the Midwest, you've got to have compassion for them because they're clinging to their guns and their Bibles. I found that quite offensive. We all go to church on Sunday and we all carry guns."

X = X

way to prove him wrong

It's Friday morning before Memorial Day weekend and my lazy stupidity is paramount right now.

lol not you homes~

Haha

http://www.koco.com/news/16860079/detail.html

Too bad it wasn't THAT Bob Ross.

http://www.windsorhills.org/includes/images/whbcLogo.jpg

Boy, 8, shot to death in Mass. gun show accident

3 hours ago

WESTFIELD, Mass. (AP) — An 8-year-old boy died after accidentally shooting himself in the head while firing an Uzi submachine gun under adult supervision at a gun fair.

The boy lost control of the weapon while firing it Sunday at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, Police Lt. Lawrence Valliere said.

The boy was with a certified instructor and "was shooting the weapon down range when the force of the weapon made it travel up and back toward his head, where he suffered the injury," a police statement said. Police called it a "self-inflicted accidental shooting."

The victim was taken to Baystate Medical Center where he died. His name was not released.

Although the death appears to be an accident, police and the Hampden district attorney's office were investigating, officials said.

The club said on its Web site that the event, run in conjunction with C.O.P Firearms and Training, is "all legal and fun." People will be allowed to fire weapons at vehicles, pumpkins and other targets, it said.

Officials with the private club and the firearms group could not be reached for comment. A message left on a club answering machine was not returned. The C.O.P. group's machine clicked off without taking a message.

The sportsman's club was founded in 1949 and describes itself on its Web site as an organization that promotes "the interest of legal sport with rod, gun, and bow and arrow, both directly and through training."

It has eight firing ranges as well as archery and fishing facilities located on 375 acres in Westfield, about 100 miles west of Boston.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU LET AN 8 YEAR OLD FIRE AN UZI?

i mean this^^^ rly

also this http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/us/28arkansas.html

i don't think the gun show accident counts as a disgruntled shooting though, more of an oopsssss

parents might have been disgruntled with the kid

This is going to be the most Tory bastard thing I've ever said on ILX, but...

There's a part of me (probably the norovirus) that thinks this is some kind of Darwinism in action. Any parent dumb enough to let an 8 year old play with an Uzi is not the kind of genes you want hanging around in the gene pool.

Now I'm going to wash the Daily Mail out of me with a salt water gargle.

there is nothing right about either of those stories

Any parent dumb enough to let an 8 year old play with an Uzi is not the kind of genes you want hanging around in the gene pool.

jesus

stay classy masonic boom

If he had taken out the parent or authority figure who allowed/supported/encouraged him to fire an Uzi, I might not object. But not himself.

Kate being a eugenicist would explain a lot, actually.

But umm yeah I think a certain "certified instructor" is going to lose his certification for trusting an 8-year-old to even have the arm strength to fire a weapon like that -- I know approximately zero about guns and this would be my first thought!

(I really wonder what the mood at this event was like after that.)

I guess they actually are going to pry that gun from the kid's cold, dead arms.

lol @ ppl ignoring the bits where Kate pre-emptively castigates herself for saying something shitty on a thread where people are making jokes about an 8-year-old shooting himself in the face to tsk at her for saying something shitty

LOL at idea that "I'm about to say something unseemly" fig-leaf effectively covers unseemliness!

HI DERE OTM.

You guys gut reaction is to point and laugh.

My gut reaction (after watching about 3 hours of David Attenborough nature program) is that animals too stupid to avoid putting their progeny in life-threatening situations end up not having progeny for very long.

You tell me which is a less shitty reaction to a shitty event.

My gut reaction (after watching about 3 hours of David Attenborough nature program) is that animals too stupid to avoid putting their progeny in life-threatening situations end up not having progeny for very long.

this was an 8 year old kid, not an "animal." I don't want to gang up on you but you're not helping your vase here.

hahaha i mean

you're not helping your case here. not vase. your vase is something else.

the only way this story could possibly have had a cautionary or beneficiary outcome would have been if the child had irreparably damaged the gun and killed or injured nobody

Kate, my point is that they're both shitty reactions so picking out yours to dogpile on, particularly since you did more than say "this is going to be unseemly", is a personality thing more than anything else.

my parents let me shoot a shotgun when i was about 7. anyone want first crack at wishing us out of the gene pool?

uh since when is a shotgun an Uzi?

srsly ppl, calm the fuck down

Sorry, in what way are human beings not animals? Did I miss something? What are we, then? Robots? Vegetables? OK, maybe it's too much to go all philosophical on a thread which is clearly about pointing and laughing at tragedy... Carry on then.

Oh get off yr high horse Kate you already played the buffoon. Now take the punishment for it.

great thread thanks man see u

People have different reactions to tragedy.

On ILX, it's clearly considered funny and commendable to make jokes of tragedy. To go cold and super-rational with anger is clearly far inferior a reaction. Sorry for not being as grown up as you lot.

apology accepted

speak for yourself 'eman'

Wait what is wrong with Kate's vase? Did the uzi kid break it somehow?

'max'

My gut reaction (after watching about 3 hours of David Attenborough nature program) is that animals too stupid to avoid putting their progeny in life-threatening situations end up not having progeny for very long.

I don't mind admitting this was my first reaction too.

My first reaction was "WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY THINKING???"

The self-righteousness on these death threads never ceases to amaze me.

Haha Rock, that phrasing has a completely different meaning from the original, it's really clever

P.S. I am taking the position of being self-righteous about eugenics, not jokes

(cause the sole joke to appear pre-Kate was "maybe the parents were disgruntled," which I think I chuckled at)

There's gotta be some kinda safety thing we can put on UZIs so 8-year-olds can fire them without getting hurt or killed.

How do the Israelis do it?

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/images/misc/vbulletin3_logo_white.gif

How iS UZITALK dealing with this tragedy? Are they lamenting the poor name that UZIs will get because of this incompetent kid?

(cause the sole joke to appear pre-Kate was "maybe the parents were disgruntled," which I think I chuckled at)

otm

to answer dans question upthread, a shotgun is like an uzi because it is just as easy to accidentally kill yourself or someone else with one as it is the other.

anyone who wants to incredulously dispute that should probably ask themselves first if they have actually shot at least one of the two, preferably both.

Do you think having 7-8 year olds firing automatic weapons (even with trained adult supervision) is a good idea? No one cares what else you might have fired and when.

Parents often make mistakes in judgement. They rarely have to pay for their mistakes with their child's life, but sometimes they do. It is hugely sad when this happens. That parent has no one else to blame. Surviving this is not going to be pretty for the ones who should have known better.

How iS UZITALK dealing with this tragedy?

They all seem to agree that the people who let the kid shoot the UZI are negligent. This particular model of UZI (Micro?) is also apparently difficult for all but the most experienced adults to control.

I've fired a shotgun, and due to the length of the barrel/single round/safety mechanism I think it would require a loss of sanity for even an 8 year-old to somehow end up shooting themselves

My first reaction was "WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY THINKING???"

― Black Seinfeld (HI DERE), Monday, 27 October 2008 18:35 (7 minutes ago)

Me also. The parents let a young child fire a sub machine gun? I mean, what the fuck, you know. I just can't imagine the mindset.

John, I think there is a difference, in that a shotgun (generally) only fires off one round at a time! I mean, one can imagine a scenario with a child under adult supervision being allowed to fire a shotgun, a rifle or an air rifle at a target range, or hunting or suchlike, and that not being an issue, really, but an automatic weapon with a high rate of fire like an Uzi? Never mind that on top of that an Uzi is a little thing that would be hard to hold on to and control once it started kicking back, unlike say an automatic like an M16 or an AK or suchlike.

(or anyone else) xp

"not being an issue" = "not being a SAFETY issue", ahem.

I don't buy the assertion that it is just as easy to accidentally kill yourself with a shotgun as it is an Uzi, if only because one is always an automatic weapon and one is not, not to mention the barrel lengths and the potential circumference described if the gun kicks back on you.

I am not saying it is impossible to shoot yourself in the face with a machine gun, rather that it seems the basic attributes ascribed to an Uzi compared to the basic attributes ascribed to what most people think of when they think "shotgun" would indicate it would be a lot easier for this situation to happen with an Uzi.

xposted to death basically saying the exact same thing

john did say "yourself or someone else" tbf

the point i'm trying to make is that people do shoot themselves or others with shotguns (and machine guns and handguns and etc.) by losing their grip and having the gun discharge when dropped. realistically, the decision to let a kid shoot any gun is a good/bad one depending on your view of firearms in general. the odd cultural idea that there are "dangerous" and "non-dangerous" guns is one of the big problems in the gun debate, which both sides manage to ignore most of the time.

Uh I think the debate is more that there are "dangerous" and "more dangerous" guns. I don't think anyone thinks any guns are "non-dangerous" except maybe cap-guns or replicas.

Haha Rock, that phrasing has a completely different meaning from the original, it's really clever

― nabisco, Monday, October 27, 2008 1:35 PM (17 minutes ago)

I didn't think Kate's first post was really objectionable either.

Basically, the only person who warrants any sympathy in this story isn't around to accept it.

I think John's point is that all guns are equally dangerous. I hope I'm wrong because that strikes me as being akin to arguing that a chainsaw is as dangerous as a bow saw because both are capable of removing a limb.

Basically, the only person who warrants any sympathy in this story isn't around to accept it.

I want to amend this. If one parent took the kid shooting over the objections of the other parent, then my heart goes out to the objecting parent.

John, like I said, I know nothing about guns, so I'll totally defer to your greater knowledge about this, but ... when I imagine an 8-year-old being too small/weak to handle the kick on a shotgun, I imagine nature of the weapon limiting the problem to one burst of danger. Whereas when I imagine an 8-year-old being too small/weak to control an Uzi, I imagine a weapon that can continue spraying bullets in directions the kid's not able to control.

I.e., if a likely problem is that the kid might not be big/strong enough to maintain control, surely it's slightly safer if he's holding more of a single-shot weapon, not one that can jump and spray and potentially catch multiple people in the area. Right?

also this http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/us/28arkansas.html

― horrible (harbl), Monday, October 27, 2008 12:13 PM

there were also a couple incidents last week, 1 killed at university of albany and 3 shot in the legs at ball state university

yeah, dan, that is the point i'm trying to make. when it comes to accidentally shooting yourself, getting shot with a shotgun is just as dangerous and potentially lethal. imagining that the mechanics of the gun is what determines the level of danger is a misapprehension. automatic weapons are considered more lethal due to their high rate of fire and potential to injure multiple people, not because they are inherently harder to operate/more likely to end up pointed at the person holding it than a shotgun.

xpost: double barrelled shotguns are particularly prone to accidents due to the fact that both cartridges are in firing position at the same time - so when you drop the gun, it very well might discharge the second shell.

the short version of all of this is that it is incredibly sad.

I don't think I or anyone else here ever stated that getting shot with a shotgun was less dangerous or potentially lethal than getting shot by an Uzi. The argument was that the mechanics of the weapons make it more likely that an 8-year-old could shoot themselves with an Uzi than with a shotgun. You're making an argument no one is contesting or even actually thinking about because it seems very, very obvious.

the mechanics of the weapons make it more likely that an 8-year-old could shoot themselves with an Uzi than with a shotgun.

but this isn't actually true (ie double barrelled shotgun as mentioned above). i think you are missing my point here. rather than getting hysterical about Uzis, people should be looking at how they feel about an 8 year old firing a gun. poor supervision and poor judgement are the problem here. the same level of bad decision making or inattentiveness could have led to (and has led to) countless other injuries and fatalities that have nothing to do with automatic weapons.

note: part of this is lingering bristling about the gene pool comment, because i think if the story had been about a dad taking his kid out to shoot a shotgun at 8 years old, and the kid had accidentally shot himself, nobody would be making rash judgements about parenting skills, it would just be considered a tragedy.

JJ, I think you're totally wrong there! Automatic fire + short barrel length = Uzi recoil causes kid to spray himself in the face. With a long shotgun barrel, even if it were firing continuously, he'd just clonk himself in the face with the gun barrel rather than shoot himself.

xpost, Non-Uzi accidental shootings happen often enough that they don't make national headlines, but sure I'd still be making rash judgements. I'm all about the rash judgements. Also, I DO think this story is a tragedy, even with the rash judgements.

the short version of all of this is that it is incredibly sad.

nope. "sad", to me at least, seems to imply that this was an accident that couldn't really have been avoided. this story makes me really fucking angry because the outcome was so obviously preventable. if anyone involved with this gun ending up in the child's hands had exercised the absolute bare minimum standard of parental responsibility then it simply wouldn't have happened.

in short, how is this not negligent homicide?

I am going to repeat again that no one has said that a shotgun is less lethal than Uzi and then drop this because DUH OF COURSE POOR SUPERVISION AND POOR JUDGMENT ARE THE PROBLEM HERE, BRISTLY JOHN IS EXTRA-BRISTLY

http://www.bannerblog.com.au/news/picts/puppies.jpg

http://www.edwardstraining.net/images/gallery/thumbs/puppy4.jpg

http://www.trinitykennels.co.nz/images/puppies/puppies_basket.jpg

John, I see what you're saying, and I certainly understand this ...

automatic weapons are considered more lethal due to their high rate of fire and potential to injure multiple people, not because they are inherently harder to operate/more likely to end up pointed at the person holding it than a shotgun

... but while I know it's weird to say this -- since, when it comes to guns, any kind of accident or mishap is incredibly serious -- I think there is a kind of damage-limitation issue that people are thinking about here. Any mishap is bad, so yes, better to think about whether an 8-year-old should handle any weapon at all. But the mechanics of a mishap with an Uzi, in an environment with people around, seem to me to be an even bigger layer of risk. Such that, even if you thought a child could handle a weapon, you might decide that this particular weapon was maybe not the best choice.

(A bigger thing people are probably thinking here, obviously, is that most of us have a hierarchy in our heads where we figure people learn to shoot with common sportsman-type weapons like rifles, and maybe hold off on the Uzis until you're, I dunno, 10 -- you can argue that this makes little difference in terms of safety, sure, but it's not going to stop people from finding it a little weird.)

guns are pretty dumb imo though i guess movies and militia man life would be pretty boring without them

yeah guns don't kill people people kill people etc but handguns and automatic weapons are considerably more "accident-prone" than semi-automatic rifles. anything that can be used one-handed instead of two is going to be more dangerous, and a fully automatic one-handed weapon is basically the most dangerous kind of gun I can think of. The military knows this, for sure. Trained adults are told to pretty much never even use the burst setting on the M-16!

By the way, I don't think an eight-year-old accidentally shooting himself in the face with an Uzi can be described as "disgruntled".

welcome to 5 hours ago Pleasant Plains:

i don't think the gun show accident counts as a disgruntled shooting though, more of an oopsssss

― horrible (harbl), Monday, 27 October 2008 16:14 (5 hours ago) Permalink

parents might have been disgruntled with the kid

― eman, Monday, 27 October 2008 17:43 (3 hours ago)

there has been a lot of disgruntled shooting-off on this thread

That would totally seem non-gross if anyone but you had posted it

I don't know if that's a compliment or what, but seriously

Touché!

what if say, the bullet had been a racist bottle opener and the child had been TV's Richard Hammond?

HI DERE OTM.

You guys gut reaction is to point and laugh.

My gut reaction (after watching about 3 hours of David Attenborough nature program) is that animals too stupid to avoid putting their progeny in life-threatening situations end up not having progeny for very long.

You tell me which is a less shitty reaction to a shitty event.

― post-apocalyptic time jazz (Masonic Boom), Monday, October 27, 2008 6:20 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i didn't laugh. i didn't point. i just said "stay classy" by which i mean you seem like a fucking misanthropic weirdo and spazz.

My gut reaction (after watching about 3 hours of David Attenborough nature program) is that animals too stupid to avoid putting their progeny in life-threatening situations end up not having progeny for very long.

I don't think there's anything that isn't practical and true about this statement? And I think humans can be fairly classified as animals in that scenario. I know it's Kate and everything, and she has been clumsy, but I can't find fault with the above statement.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the factual content of that statement per se...

My gut reaction (after watching about 3 hours of David Attenborough nature program)

^^hard science

To be fair, Laurel, that statement is a subtly de-problematized version of the one people didn't like

Also, I fired a small-caliber rifle a few times when I was around that age, maybe a bit older, under carefully monitored circumstances. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, really, and if you're going to allow a child to fire a gun while supervised, that's the right kind of gun to use. Giving me (say) a handgun, let alone an Uzi, would have been completely insane.

I know, the second attempt was softer than the first. I guess it was kind of Shakey Mo-ish. But whatevs. The authority figure who brought this about is the perpetrator and the kid is the victim. Sad day today, making me not sorry I can't check the news on the weekends.

Overall I'm really loathe to frame this as "should children be exposed to firearms" because I don't think it's that simple, and I really don't want to find myself answering "no" just because I think wrongness was done in this instance (catastrophic wrongness, as it turned out).

Loath, sorry. I loathe typos.

xpost - You guys are totally lame. When I was 8, my uncle let me do most of an angioplasty

When I was 8, my uncle let me do most of an angioplasty

Which really translates to "I knew where my parents kept (a) the ether, (b) the balloons, (c) the brace-and-bit, and (d) the keys to my uncle's bedroom".

No, clearly it has nothing to do with the factual content of any of the statements, and more that Nabisco wants to write me as some kind of strawman.

Because clearly, angrily blustering that a parent who lets their EIGHT YEAR OLD play with an UZI is a candidate for the Darwin award is on a par with advocating eugenics, and all the loaded implications of eugenics.

People don't always express themselves clearly when they're angry and disgusted with a provocative news story. (Nor do they express themselves clearly when they've been in bed for 2 days with a norovirus.)

But to go from a statement clearly framed in discomfort at one's own gut reaction, to effectively calling another poster out as a eugenicist is a feat of projection that only an ego as arrogant as Nabisco could manage. Because Nabisco no longer reacts to content of posts but to whether or not they match his godlike deductions of what "Masonic Kate" or "l0u1s jagg3r" (or whatever cartoon he's decided to read other posters as) would say.

not that this doesn't have the makings of an epic battle, but do we really need to do this

I thought epic battles were usually ones in which both sides were evenly matched?

tbh this entire thread should be made into a Tombot comic-book

still kind of amazed that we managed to ruin the DISGRUNTLED SHOOTINGS thread

(Seriously, calling Nabisco "arrogant" is insane -- he's one of the most rational, lucid, non-judgmental, and non-blustery posters on the entire Internet, let alone this board. I don't think I've ever seen him portray someone as a cartoon who hadn't already done it for themselves ten times over.)

xpost ha!

For some reason that makes me think of Milhouse and the guys chanting "Bar-ton Fink! Bar-ton Fink!"

Because clearly, angrily blustering that a parent who lets their EIGHT YEAR OLD play with an UZI is a candidate for the Darwin award is on a par with advocating eugenics, and all the loaded implications of eugenics.

My understanding was that the Darwin Award goes to the person who dies, actually

No, actually: Darwin Awards go to people who take their genes out of the gene pool via stupid means; obviously the easiest way to do this is to kill yourself but they've also done sterilizations. In this case, the decision made by the parent resulted in their progeny getting taken out of the gene pool, so you could say it goes to the parents assuming the kid is an only child.

ya

Okay I looked it up and I'm wrong; the kid would get the Darwin Award.

Essentially killing your own offspring through negligence and almost criminal stupidity prevents your genes from remaining in the gene pool just as effectively.

But hey, you're just gonna call me a eugenicist for saying that, aren't you, because it's easier to slur my character than admit I might say something which has a grain of truth in it.

x-post

Any parent dumb enough to let an 8 year old play with an Uzi is not the kind of genes you want hanging around in the gene pool.

I called this kinda eugenicist because it suggests that an 8-year-old shouldn't be alive, due to having inherited his genes from people who let an 8-year-old play with an Uzi.

The parents would only qualify if they simultaneously did away with their offspring AND guaranteed they'd never have another. Which, depending on whether either of them OPPOSED the other's urge to hand their son an Uzi, may be exactly the case....

Wait, why am I wasting time trying to be measured and polite about this? The idea that "negligence and almost criminal stupidity" are genetic is a total LOLeugenics joke, for Christ's sake -- argue with me about being critical or high-handed, Kate, but don't try to pretend the word's inappropriate. You know as well as anyone that you wouldn't go on a thread about a guy who beat his kid to death and say "good thing he got those violent genes out of the pool by beating that baby"

At the risk of pointing out what ought to be obvious, you can say things that are completely true and still come off as a complete shithead/dick/epithet of your choice.

(xposts)

Frankly I think any parent letting their 8 year old child handle an Uzi are moronic failures and even if the kid hadnt died should probably have the kids taken off them.

Now would anyone like to call me a misanthropist spazz? Because I'll gladly come around and kick you in the nuts.

I mean, it's a fucking joke about a dead 8-year-old not having genes that deserved to survive anyway. I may be humorless or self-righteous on this one but the mention of eugenics is not exactly a weird slur.

Frankly I think any parent letting their 8 year old child handle an Uzi are moronic failures and even if the kid hadnt died should probably have the kids taken off them.

Now would anyone like to call me a misanthropist spazz?

Hardly, since I think (hope) we all agree with you. It's the whole "good thing THAT'S out of the gene pool" subtext that starts getting into repulsive territory.

Frankly I think any parent letting their 8 year old child handle an Uzi are moronic failures and even if the kid hadnt died should probably have the kids taken off them.

ON THE FUCKING MONEY. End of story.

I wasn't making a fucking joke, Nabisco, and if you think I was, you have a fucking sick sense of humour. Now quit pretending you're God, coz Bono wants his schtick back.

Would anyone care about this nonsense if Kate hadn't said it?

No, which is why I'm pissed off, because you're using her as a scapegoat and franky nabisco I thought better of you of all people. Jesus this place is a fucking joke sometimes.

I'm so cranky I'm typoing everything as well, beh whatever.

Oh sorry, Kate, it was a non-joking claim that we don't want a dead 8-year-old's genes in the world, a million apologies

Yeah okay can we move on? An 8-yr-old kid is dead and in a way not usually seen outside of the worst zombie movies because people hardly ever shoot kids even in the MOVIES and I, like nabs up above, wonder very much what that did to the rest of the event.

Well I'm guessing the next kid in line didn't get to fire the UZI.

Are Uzis even legal outside of a battle scenario? Because if they are in the US, daym, you guys.

Yes, we are nuts.

oh shit, Alex

(obv an xpost)

You guys, this show was incredibly fucked up:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2008_10_27_Boy_dies_after_accidentally_shooting_himself/srvc=home&position=0
(keep in mind this is the conservative paper in town)

An event listing on the club’s Web site reads: “It’s all legal and fun - No permits or licenses required !!!!”

Anyone under 16 was admitted for free. Available targets were to include pumpkins, vehicles and “other fun stuff we can’t print here!!!!!” according to the club’s Web site.

Would anyone care about this nonsense if Kate hadn't said it?

― Alex in SF, Monday, October 27, 2008 11:03 PM (16 minutes ago)

Absolutely. its a rotten thing to say, for the reasons i cited above.

BTW, uzis (and other automatic weapons) are legal in the US, but not without a specific liscensure procedure that is very strict. there are currently no catridge based firearms that are illegal for public ownership in the US (again, the ones you would expect to be not in general circulation are subject to liscensure, so it isn't as if we are all kicking it with rocket launchers)

xpostss

Anyone under 16 was admitted for free. Available targets were to include pumpkins, vehicles and “other fun stuff we can’t print here!!!!!” according to the club’s Web site.

Osama and Obama effigies, yeah?

WTF at the comments on that URL you posted Dan:

I don't think children should fire machine guns. I do think they should have firearm safety training, etc. Also, firing a machinegun is awesome, I suggest everyone try it if they can.

Dont try it kids! But try it, it is awesome!

it is kinda fun to shoot guns. i did it when i was a kid a few times. like shooting pop cans and stuff.

Sorry, I have to say this is one "fun" I will never understand or agree with. Perhaps thats because I grew up in a culture where guns only belong to responsible farmers, and pretty much no one else.

well, i actually grew up on a farm, so there ya go.

Yeah thats fair, and for farmers, I totally understand the neccesity and the kids being taught about handling weapons. So they should! Its like learning to swim so you dont drown.

But city people, they dont need guns.

i mean yeah i don't know how necessary it is. but you know, it's just rifle are more around, hunting is like a common thing. we all took gun safety class through the local VFW when we were around 13-14 or so...pretty much everyone did it, like swimming lessons.

Western Mass is incredibly rural aside from Worcester and Springfield.

i've thought guns 'n' kids were a bad combo ever since this acquaintance of mine in 8th grade was accidentally shot and killed with a shotgun by this other classmate of ours in the latter's kitchen. i guess their parents gave 'em safety lessons and taught them well but it didn't prevent that from happening.

Trayce, this is my favorite comment on that article so far:

sorry to sau but people are allowed to sugn the kids up at age 5 for the GUN CLUB so as they get older they can have license's for fire arms to hunt,that is why he was allowed to shot the gun. Sad but also stupid. Prey for them.

Prey for them, indeed.

Similar thing happened to one of my brother's best friends from middle school. Pretty sure the last words he ever heard were "c'mon, it's not loaded." Feel somewhat bad for the kid who was speaking those words, too.

I dunno -- I continually wonder about these extremes of gun culture. I've lived places where most kids learn how to handle a rifle and hunt deer, etc., mostly without incident. But obviously this is entirely different and more stable, culturally, than the kind of ethos where it's a fairground event to let an 8-year-old try an Uzi. I don't entirely know what's involved in the latter mentality; I don't think I've ever had enough of a conversation with someone who thought like that to get a sense of how it works.

(i should say our gun safety classes were pretty good and common sense stuff...also we were using bolt action .22 rifles NOT UZIS or anything crazy like that)

I mean, even just aesthetically ... I can imagine an 8-year-old operating a small rifle and safely/accurately shooting targets and I'd ideally think "hey, here's a kid showing skill and responsibility and learning something." I imagine an 8-year-old firing an Uzi at something, even safely and accurately, and I just think "good god that is kind of a creepy-ass image."

i think it sounds cute

Prey for them

LOL!

We should ban cars because they kill more people than guns. The anti-gun nuts on here are ignorant and live in a fantasy world. Lets also ban cancer and cloudy days. The more people are taught how to properly handle and respect firearms the less accidental injuries there will be.

Actually I do kind of think we should ban cancer.

ok so i didn't really want to get back into this but:

I called this kinda eugenicist because it suggests that an 8-year-old shouldn't be alive, due to having inherited his genes from people who let an 8-year-old play with an Uzi.

― nabisco, Monday, October 27, 2008 5:54 PM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark

^^^ this is precisely what was so bananas about what Kate said. Getting Darwinian laffs when someone straps a rocket to their station wagon or something is one thing, but going for easy "be happy for the gene pool" lolz when an 8 year old (EIGHT YEAR OLD) accidentally died due to poor parental and "professional" (<--- this is important) oversight is a little icky. This kid's death wasn't the result of him inheriting the idiot gene and riding his BMX bike into a volcano, it was because a grip of adults thought it wasn't a bad idea that he fire an UZI.

xp slow down you guys

It wasn't a "lolz yay gene pool" post, it was an "ugh, this is awful and I had this vicious, horrible reaction to it" post.

xp to myself - this is what i get for leaving the room in the middle of posting something.

Anyway, @what nabisco said in the meantime: the ethos that UZI's are like an exceptional and fun day out underwrites some of this tragedy, for sure. Parents *may* have raised their kid with a familiarity and basic appreciation of guns (whuddup MN), and may also have assumed that someone at a gun show---a guy with automatic weapons! whoah!---would share their values and be like a serious "gun dude" and encourage/supervise an 8 year-old firing an UZI in a way that wouldn't end up with a dead 8 year-old. I think gun shows are precisely the venue where your responsible rural gun owner and your tin-foil-bandana gun nut are likely to meet and mingle.

???

Any parent dumb enough to let an 8 year old play with an Uzi is not the kind of genes you want hanging around in the gene pool.

I really didn't mean to pile on masonic boom here, but parse that sentence: anyone that dumb shouldn't reproduce so haw that kid isn't "hanging around" at least. When I read that, I thought it sucked, and I'm not sure it's being unfair to point it out. Is all.

xp

x to the p

Yeah, so basically a lot of people on this thread are having a problem with this thing called "context" when they come across something they find objectionable.

Kate's entire post with the parts that clearly signpost "I think this is a gross thing to think" in bold:

This is going to be the most Tory bastard thing I've ever said on ILX, but...

There's a part of me (probably the norovirus) that thinks this is some kind of Darwinism in action. Any parent dumb enough to let an 8 year old play with an Uzi is not the kind of genes you want hanging around in the gene pool.

Now I'm going to wash the Daily Mail out of me with a salt water gargle.

It's rather explicitly stated that Kate finds the reaction unsettling and wants to get rid of it.

context is boring dude, I just want to jump on top of that pile of people.

oh yeah, this is ILE we're talking about, wtf am I thinking

standard "i'm about to offer a controversial opinion" technique though. if she really found it so unsettling and disagreed with it so much, why offer it? hmmm

HMMM!!!

*SCRATCHES CHIN*

HMMM INDEED I SAY

oh i know, dan. still, even with a challopy bookend it seemed like why bother? and i say this as someone who posts borg pics etc etc

anyway.

yeah fair enough re: context but if somebody shows up and says "jeez i hate to be all weird and right wing and creepy but i just hate it when i end up having to sit next to mexicans on the bus. oh wow i am so embarrassed i wish i felt differently" i'm not going to have any problem saying that what they said was fucked up.

There's thing about battles and picking them that is on the tip of my tongue.

people in battles shouldn't throw glass houses?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/10/police_identify_6.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed6

http://www.signonsandiego.com/entertainment/street/battles%20mirrored.jpg

“This accident was truly a mystery to me,” he said. “This is a horrible event, a horrible travesty, and I really don’t know why it happened.

Uh....

looooooooooooooooooooooool A+

xpost

Is the father a Doctor? That's been his title in a few reports.

Sorry, this happened a few miles from where I live, so I didn't read everything...
that video is creepy!

"My son, um, died because I allowed him to, um, handle a machine gun, um...but philosophically we can't know, um, how anything will turn out, um..

I haven't read the whole thread, but any argument of this being a result of "ignorance" is absurd.

That interview seems really strange. Really strange. Not sure why exactly. Maybe because the father is doing the interview a day after the incident, and keeps referring to his son in present tense but sometimes past tense. And then his attitude comes off as "gee shucks, this kind of thing just happens sometimes." His demeanor seemed more appropriate for someone whose home was just foreclosed or had gotten laid off, not someone who witnessed his son shoot himself in the head the day before. People react differently to loss and all that, but that felt weird.

And the reporter's super-enthusiastic-reporter voice and intonation added to the odd tone of the whole thing. Yuck.

There were M16s, but those were too big and dangerous for my son. So we went with the Uzi.

"This accident was truly a mystery to me," said [the boy's father], director of emergency medicine at Johnson Memorial Hospital in Stafford, Conn. "This is a horrible event, a horrible travesty, and I really don't know why it happened."

OMG. Tracer, that just makes the guy BEYOND stupid.

As my uncle the cop and duck hunter would have said, there is no reason AT ALL for a child to handle a gun. EVER. Want to hunt? Wait until you're 18 and can at least legally be accountable for a very adult responsibility. Want to fire an Uzi? Fuck off back to your Wii, life's not like that. Yeah, the stuff about shared traditions and family bonding warm the cockles of my heart truly but propulsive weapons are not for children and every adult around the child should have realised that.

Whatever, they just might by now.

My great uncle would have disagreed. I shot rifles and shotguns as a 10-year-old in Georgia but only after having everything explained to me by him, and only after walking a good couple of miles in the woods, being as quiet as possible and listening for the sounds of the animals we were attempting to kill.

I think it's always going to be difficult for Britishers to understand "the right to bare arms" thing but, having lived in the US, I've long since come to accept the fact that it's an argument that's simply not worth having.

That being said, the notion that this "right" should have no boundaries whatsoever strikes me as lunacy. Freedom of Speech isn't limitless and nor is the right to vote so where does this idea come from that the fundamental freedom of a seven year old to play with an uzi is uninfringeable?

Don't really expect anyone to address this.

"the right to bare arms"

http://armyboyz.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/cute_soldier_tanktop_beach.jpg

woooops. no more lemsip for me.

The thing is, very few people actually believe this kid should have been firing an Uzi.

Well of course they don't but nonetheless, perfectly legally, it could and did happen.

Obviously we all want as few laws as possible and you'd rather not need a law that says an 8 year old cannot fire an Uzi - because no-one would be that fucking stupid, right? - but apparently, you do.

Obviously we all want as few laws as possible

Not really.

I am getting to the point where I think it's entirely within reason to limit ownership and use of guns to adults. Not everyone's guardians are attentive or smart so obviously we have to legislate for that.

I am getting to the point where I don't think anyone should be allowed a gun.

"what if someone needs a gun for hunting" = use a fucking bow & arrow, btw.

Can't buy a bow & arrow in Brixton.

I bet you can, dude.

You can get them out of Hamley's, though.

If we didn't have guns Dolores Cranberry would have had to sing with their BOWS AND ARROWS nad their BOMBS and their BOWS AND ARROWS and their BOMBS and that doesn't scan.

You can squeegee it so "with their CROSSBOWS and their BOMBS" works, though.

This thread is gun-believable.

Bows don't kill people, arrows do

Who remembers Goldie Lookin' Chain?

TV Commissioning Editors

I think that people should be able to have guns for hunting or sports shooting or self-defense or gun-collecting but there should be something in place to keep submachine guns out of the hands of small children. That's just retarded.

I usually let my eight-year old cousin play with a chainsaw, will this meet with ILE's disapproval too?

I wasn't even allowed to mow the lawn when I was eight.

As long as it's a child's chainsaw, that's fine

Where have you gone, Rog Adultery?

yeah, that's EXACTLY what this thread needs

This thread is gun-believable.

― Carrie Bradshaw Layfield (The stickman from the hilarious 'xkcd' comics), Tuesday, 28 October 2008 12:39 (1 hour ago)

your favorite jokes about guns

yuck http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-homeless3-2008nov03,0,2050258.story

Even more yuck: when I read that story, the page had a big ad for the buying of 'Taxi Driver'.

That is depressing. RIP encampment people.

deezgruntles

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/08/AR2008110802243.html?hpid=sec-nation

Police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult, Melnick said, but he acknowledged it is unlikely that a judge would grant that motion.

He's 8 years old!

That poor kid, was probably being abused by dad & landlord dude and didnt know how to escape it.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-karthik-rajaram-081007-ht,0,3296537.story

The man wrote in his suicide letter that he felt he had two options — to just kill himself or to kill himself and his family — and decided the second option was more honorable, Moore said.

uughhhh. so fucked up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7941426.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45558000/jpg/_45558131_bullets_afp466.jpg

baden-württemberg is the worst state to go on a shooting spree in - police have orders to engage shooters immediately instead of waiting for sek backup. worked pretty well in this case.

argh Police: NC nursing home shooting kills 6, hurts 3

Police official: 3 officers killed in Pa. shooting

By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI – 33 minutes ago

PITTSBURGH (AP) — A man opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said. Friends said he feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns.

Three officers were killed, said a police official at the scene who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. Police spokeswoman Diane Richard would only say that at least five officers were wounded, but wouldn't give any other details.

The man who fired at the officers was arrested after a several-hour standoff. One witness reported hearing hundreds of shots.

i hate seeing this thread resurface, which has been happening all too often in recent weeks. wtf society?

3 dead, 2 hurt in Ga. shooting; professor sought

By HARRY R. WEBER – 25 minutes ago

ATHENS, Ga. (AP) — Authorities were on a nationwide manhunt for a University of Georgia professor in the shooting deaths of three people Saturday at a community theater near campus.

http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl051809bhschoolshoot.164081cb.html

items found at Doucet’s home included drawing of Marilyn Manson

a clue!

read that its quite bizarre

Here's the drawings they found on him
http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/10.jpg
http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/160.jpg
http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/11.jpg

http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/14.jpg
http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/18.jpg

here's the whole article for those who cant be arsed clicking/not allowed to do so at work

LAROSE, La. ― Authorities have identified the boy in Monday’s shooting at Larose-Cut Off Middle School.

Justin Doucet, 15, remains in critical condition and is in a coma at Terrebonne General Hospital after shooting himself, according Lafourche Sheriff’s spokesman Sgt. Lesley Peters.

Seven extra officers were at the school Tuesday morning and students must enter at one of three metal detectors locations, Peters said, which is a day after Doucet allegedly brought a gun to school and fired into the ceiling before turning the gun on himself.

The Attorney General’s Office will also be analyzing a computer from Doucet’s home.

At a press conference held by Sheriff Craig Webre, items found at Doucet’s home included drawing of Marilyn Manson, crime books and articles on the 10th anniversary of Columbine, were displayed. The sheriff said it was apparent that he was extremely troubled young man.

Webre said Doucet appeared to be fascinated by the Antichrist, Nazism, WWII and the end of the world. From his writings, the sheriff said it appeared that he had been preparing a much larger shooting.
According to police, the gun used was the property of Doucet’s father

The 15-year-old, 8th grader who fired a shot into a ceiling at Larose-Cut Off Middle School before turning the gun on himself may have had more ambitious plans that were detailed in a loose-leaf journal found inside his backpack.
Video: Watch the Story

Lafourche Parish Sheriff Craig Webre said a backpack found at the scene contained a journal that included writings about how he was going to kill people and a diagram of the area he was planning to occupy.

The student wrote in the journal that he planned to go to art class and then excuse himself to go to the bathroom, where he would “gear up” before heading to the back of the main building and into the first classroom to begin his attack.

At the end of the note, Webre said the student wrote, “I am King. F--- you all. All will die.”
Also Online

Raw video: Lafourche Parish Sheriff Craig Webre

Raw video: Larose-Cut Off Principal Matt Hodson

PHOTOS from the scene

The student’s parents told Webre they had no indication that their child had any issues, telling the Sheriff he had not been a discipline problem at the school.

The gunman was dressed in an AC/DC Highway to Hell T-shirt and, despite the elaborate plans in the journal, was armed only with a lone gun and four bullets, two of which were used in the school.

Also in the journal was a drawing of the gunman in camouflage pants, which he apparently changed into before going into the classroom.

Webre said the student brought a .25-caliber semiautomatic handgun to the school, where he walked into an English class taught by a teacher he had never had before.

According to three students who were in the English class, the 15-year-old walked in before 9:20 a.m., ordered everyone down on their knees and told the teacher to bow to Marilyn Manson.

Matt Stamey / Houma Courier

Webre said the student first pointed the gun at a whiteboard before pulling the trigger. The gun failed to go off, though, and he pointed the gun at the teacher before he fired a shot into the ceiling.

The shooter then called a fellow student by name to come with him, but the student didn’t follow and the shooter immediately left the classroom, heading for a boys bathroom where he shot himself in the head.

Students at Larose-Cut Off were escorted out of the classrooms with their hands over their heads as a security precaution, Webre said.

They were taken to a safe location where school board officials said crisis counselors would be available to help them.

The shooter has been taken to a second hospital where he is listed in stable but critical condition as of Monday night.

Webre said the school has more than 500 students and that parents are asked to call the VFW Hall to arrange for pickup of their children.

According to the Associated Press, the middle school has metal detectors but they weren't in use.

are Slayer so passée now that a gunman quoting their lyrics don't even rate a mention?

from a lacarated sty
bleeding its homer
creating my software

Not to inject too levity, but the "Born to KILL!" bubble flowing of off "US Coast Guard" is XD.

http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=16453&nextimage=0

xp
and dont tell me you didnt laugh at
http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/10.jpg

http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/06.jpg

http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/120.jpg

"Born to Shoot a Ceiling Tile and Put Myself in a Coma!"

Dear President Of Germany
http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/90.jpg

http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/91.jpg

SLAYER
BTK
USMC
KILLER WITH A CAUSE
SOCIAL STUDIES

Eversense

i like the swastika-nose happy face

I am pretty impressed a young man shaped like an old-fashioned clothespin managed to shoot all those people!

I mean he doesn't even have any arms.

if only custos was here with the punchline

;_;

Look, guys, an outfit like that takes planning. If you don't make notes and preparations beforehand, you'll be lost once you get to "T-shirt."

omg that letter

tbf WWII was a very interesting war

Dear President Of Germany
I am a 14 year old boy from America. I Love the country Germany
Eversense I found that I have German in me. I love to learn about WWII, why?, it was a very intersting war

what is this "Dare with Harrelson" he does every day?

ah so it says "dare" i coulnt make that word out. I guess its something to do with Natural Born Killers?

http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/10.jpg
http://www.wwltv.com/images/slideshow/0519notes1/images/11.jpg

Saddam & Barack?

this thread needs some noodle vague

Combat boots look suspiciously like inline skates. Was he planning on a speedy getaway?

I thought they looked more like footy boots with big metal studs.

I think the only reason it's easy to make fun was his sense of aim. Messed up kid's also in a coma. Fuck you all.

Dude, he fucked up his big chance to kill somebody and he'll probably never get another. That makes this a good day. Fuck anybody who wants to take people with them on their way out. I hope he enjoys his coma.

I feel no sympathy for the kid, but it is a little odd that this thread has become all lolz about the pathology of school shootings.

tbf WWII was a very interesting war

― naturally unfunny, though mechanically sound (Pancakes Hackman), Wednesday, May 20, 2009 1:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

Why?

Because it look intersting?

I was going to change my username to "disturbed mind - tshirt - camo pants" but now it feels inappropriate.

how about "disturbed mind - i am not a goth honestly tshirt - camo pants" ? ;)

I feel no sympathy for the kid, but it is a little odd that this thread has become all lolz about the pathology of school shootings.

at least it's not a what's on your ipod thread

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/10/museum.shooting/index.html

Two shot at Holocaust Memorial Museum by 88-year-old white supremacist James von Brunn. Googling his name brings up a website I'm not going to click on at work.

Lexis brings up this guy, who would be the same age:

D.C. Superior Court Judge Harriett R. Taylor sentenced a 62-year-old New Hampshire man to a minimum term of more than four years in prison yesterday for trying to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve Board in 1981.
James Von Brunn of Lebanon, N.H., was sentenced to various terms on charges of attempted kidnaping while armed, second-degree burglary while armed, assault with a dangerous weapon, carrying a pistol without a license and possession of a prohibited weapon.

Von Brunn was arrested at board headquarters and told police that he wanted to take board members hostage because of their role in the nation's economic difficulties.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/85458/thumbs/s-VONBRUNN-large.jpg

In 1981 Von Brunn attempted to place the treasonous Federal Reserve Board of Governors under legal, non-violent, citizens arrest. He was tried in a Washington, D.C. Superior Court; convicted by a Negro jury, Jew/Negro attorneys, and sentenced to prison for eleven years by a Jew judge. A Jew/Negro/White Court of Appeals denied his appeal. He served 6.5 years in federal prison. (Read about von Brunn's "Federal Reserve Caper" HERE.) He is now an artist and author and lives on Maryland's Eastern Shore.

http://loveforlife.com.au/files/750x541.jpg

Hope this guy survives long enough to die in a prison cell.

vv glad that dudes like this are dying out

they are dying out because of the JEW CONSPIRACY to destroy the white gene-pool

Guy looks healthy if that photo has him anywhere near 88.

security guard R.I.P.

Two shot at Holocaust Memorial Museum by 88-year-old white supremacist James von Brunn.

just in case this is reassuring to anyone: from what I'm reading, the two people who were shot were one security guard and von Brunn himself

http://www.geocities.com/mpetrie98/AwJeez5.jpg

(Read about von Brunn's "Federal Reserve Caper" HERE.)

ok lol

that health club shooting yesterday....creepy as fuck

this is the dude's online diary

http://www.georgesodini.com/20090804.htm

btw guns are terrible imo

link doesn't work?

ABC's got it

pretty horrifying. i feel like it used to be that the angle on these stories played for was, "this guy just snapped" and now more and more we realize that people plan this shit for months or even years.

omar, have you read the recent book on Columbine by Dave Cullen? Dude really spanks the media on the whole "crazed killer who snaps" thing since it is almost never true, just as you say.

I should read that. I went to a writing program one summer at the college where this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Lo shot a student and a professor. While I was there I met a bunch of ppl who were there at the time and new both Lo and the victims. It was really chilling listening to their experiences and this sort always really fucking disturbs me.

erm "knew" not "new"

I'm not sure why I looked at that, despite being pretty sure I didn't want to. But of course what's "creepy" about it turns out not to be a ton of active creepiness, and actually a high enough level of self-awareness and mental coherence that you really wouldn't expect that turnout, right? No wonder the "this guy just snapped" angle, when someone's that functional.

(Would it start a whole thing if I speculated that this guy seems very much screwed over and made dangerous by a whole lot of gender stuff having to do with masculinity?)

I mean that's sort of an obvious comment, but that stuff reads practically like a piece of fiction intended to show how everyday masculine gender roles can weigh on and deform people

this is the most depressing thread title ever

i guess even the angel of death gets tired of this shit

active creepiness isn't really creepy, since folks who are really creepy are ones you are able to avoid easier maybe. it's this banal, seething inner rage that manifests itself in some kind of quiet guy image which is actually scary.

and the whole, "study my journal for those who need help in the future" thing is something i've seen before. i think charles whitman left a similar note, maybe.

Im sure this quote is a blow to his legacy

"Trish Cowen, who has lived across the street from Mr. Sodini for 13 years, said he was friendly but largely kept to himself. “I never saw any women over there, and he wasn’t bad looking,” she said. “I don’t understand it. I just assumed he was gay.""

OL OTM regarding the banal seething inner rage thing

wow. incredible reading. just terrifying, and... familiar. he was depressed, and he had so many reasons for his self-contempt, most of them contradictory

OK that was way creepier and more disturbing than I thought it would be. Jesus.

btw fuck ABC for cleaning this up so much. since the site is down, probably for good, abc may be the last public record of it, and the precise level of his racism needs to be part of what ppl know about this.

jack and jill politics has the first paragraph un-bowdlerized, at least

http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2009/08/george-sodini-pittsburgh-mass-murder-obama-driven-racism/

Shit. I have like a billion thoughts on the masculinity/sex issues in there and all the fascinating places he projects them, but it just feels too stupid and armchair-psychology to even go into it.

okay xpost I will say that the "precise level of racism" in that thing strikes me as a not-as-untypical-as-you'd-think projection of certain masculinity/sex issues of his own onto the world sorta using black men as proxy for other stuff

wow

it seems stupid because it's so textbook, it's like you never expect to see it in real people. for me anyway.

i mean expressed like that. whatever.

i think when you have people whose social awkwardness turns them into loner misanthropes left alone with their own neuroses and opinions (based on their limited social interaction), you have a recipe for rantings like that. 99.99% of folks like that don't kill people, fortunately, they just end up leaving dumb comments at the end of news articles.

yeah, and because almost none of them go on rampages we don't get to see their secret rantings, which is why i always assume those kinds of thoughts are mostly unconscious.

the edited (redacted?) version of that diary is ridiculous

its just so pointless - "here a peak inside the head of a killer! (except you are not allowed to actually look at anything)"

easiest mountain climb ever

"Bout' time tables are turned on that ----. ... LOL."

at what age does it become creepy to "LOL"

i'm thinkin 48

you're never too old to laugh out loud

Possibly u can be too old to ROFL, though. Hard on the hips, that.

i don't mean literally i mean clicking L-O-L on your keyboard for others to read

"These are the rambling messages of a likely psychotic" and display characteristics of a man who has been "severely depressed for a long time," forensic psychologist Naftali Berrill said of Sodini's writing.

good thing we have psychologists to parse everything for us laypeople

sometimes i read the analysis of trained professionals in stories like this and i feel like i'm being insulted

http://jezebel.com/5331406/gym-gunman-was-not-alone-the-making-of-a-misogynist-murderer

must read imo

that's fairly spot-on and one reason why i find adherents to "the game" and dudes who fail with women and thus feel aggrieved by women to be musts-to-avoid.

Yeah, been popping back and reading those comments all day. I generally find comments on that site head-exploding alarmist and lacking in basic humor, but on this subject I think they have it right on.

i'm listening to the youtube embedded in that post, fkn terrifying.

funny ("funny") how the "tfl" dudes see themselves as the enemy of "game" dudes but jesus it looks like the same thing from where i sit

I only made it about 30 seconds in before shutting it off; I can't believe dude goes on for TEN MINUTES.

two sides of the same coin basically

obvious statement, but for both of these groups you have to basically deeply hate women and regard them not as people but as objects of desire (or more likely, discarding).

Journalists could be doing a real service to the culture by focusing on the often-gendered nature of mass violence in America, and by seeking out anti-violence experts who could contextualize these crimes and could offer solutions and strategies for eradicating (or, at least, reducing) this kind of grave violence.

ok, the first point seems right but the last part seems like maybe wishful thinking. like, the problem really goes so much deeper.

Laurel I think you're right on both counts about Jezebel comments, except for one major thing, which I admit I'm having trouble putting into words without sounding contrary. My best attempt is this: I think a lot of people over there (and everywhere) are very perceptive and very good at being critical thinkers about the construction of femininity and roles for women and what those gender issues do to women's behavior. I think some of them can be extremely and problematically resistant to being perceptive or critical thinkers about the construction of masculinity and roles for men and what those gender issues do to men's behavior. On one hand this seems like maybe not the best circumstance to point that out, but on the other hand this seems like exactly the time to point that out, because these guys and the other guys being discussed strike me as people who are very precisely fucked up over issues having to do with the way gender is constructed in society. That is very much not an expression of sympathy for them. But I think, funnily enough, that the idea that their gender issues are not real and serious problems (for them, well before any of them go crazy or violent) is possible one of the very construction-of-gender issues that gets them there.

i'd rather this youtube not be embedded, so

http://preview.tinyurl.com/cnea9v

title: THE "PUSSY RENAISSANCE" IS COMING TO AN END!

comments... don't even know what to say

it definitely sounds as though this guy was particularly fucked up over his own masculinity. it isn't a stretch to say it sounds as though it comes from a fucked-up family life.

ok, the first point seems right but the last part seems like maybe wishful thinking. like, the problem really goes so much deeper.

well I wouldn't say it goes deeper - its just rooted somewhere else, ie the problem is mass availability of guns. people are violent and gender is deeply encoded into our biology, the two are inevitably going to cross for subsets of the population, it can't be entirely eradicated through some kind of social engineering project. But the availability of deadly weapons, on the other hand, CAN be effectively legislated.

tags: xpost

Tags:
dw@yneh0ll0waytv the pussy renaissance is coming to an end steve hoca tfl true forced loneliness dw@yne h0ll0way b1ll122460 movement help sos car sunglasses pua pick up artist cool womens liberation feminism audio download history catholic church vatican david de@ngelo mystery how education learning school teens generation depression dating scene built ford truck gmc gas parking shopping relationships girlfriend boyfriend sex xxx porn god marriage love divorce secret run marathons france

pussy renassiance... isn't that a Li'l Kim album

DwayneHollowayTV (3 weeks ago) Show Hide
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There we go., The "Market". The Game. That's PUA propaganda. TFL, once again is not about sex or a global market.

Because if my opposite sex, which is women, we're forced to be alone by every guy they come across in their life. Was forced to lived this type of lifestyle. It would be in reverse. But there is women in this movement.

When are people going to wake up and start treating people like human beings again ???

It's Moral Breakdown by design that we're witnessing. It's been proven
DwayneHollowayTV (3 weeks ago) Show Hide
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Real love and a Real relationship is not based on sex. Because that's not real love and it never will be. The comments your giving me is PUA propaganda.

You did not answer my question that "Monkeys Don't Build Cars" aspect. Because that's just the case.

The "Biology" concept you are giving me was introduced into the indoctrination of the schools to teach children that we're nothing but mindless animals.

TFL is not about sex and it never will be.
DwayneHollowayTV (3 weeks ago) Show Hide
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Well, the top dog aspect and concept is the illusion of a "selfish person". I'm a person that has a heart and cares for others. As I do live in the real world and not an illusionary one. Feminsm was used for the destruction of the family unit by design.

what the

I mean, what?

pua pick up artist cool womens liberation feminism

yes

yeah, well that canadian massacre referenced in the link shows the limits of that
xposts to shakey

(what I'm saying might be related to, though not quite the same as, what I was trying at great length to say on the Twilight thread until Dan stepped in and condensed it to "it's completely okay in our society for a guy to be completely fucked up in the head as long as he doesn't rape someone with a chainsaw")

it's funny how much this dude sounds like marc loi if you remove two or three words

yeah I know velko what can I say... everything has limits.

"it's completely okay in our society for a guy to be completely fucked up in the head as long as he doesn't rape someone with a chainsaw")

lolz well done Dan

lol omar otm! when i read marc loi i sort of think about these guys a little

i was just pointing out the naivete of "experts contextualizing things" as a solution to anything

the pua thing is, imo, sociopathy-as-hobby. these tfl dudes are really proud of how full of love they are, and how much that hurts them.

i think you are right xp

"the world is fucked up (fuckin bitches), take what you want! no-one deserves me!"

I just got to the "HOOCHY COOCHY" part of the Dw4yneDouchebag video and holy shit.

DW4YNE, THE REASON WOMEN DON'T WANT TO DATE YOU IS BECAUSE YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE

"You can shake your little vagina around" SERIOUSLY WHAT THE HELL

point of order, dwayne is some other dude, reposting this guys vid, whose name is, i guess "st3v3 h0ca"

oops

SORRY DWAYNE, YOU ARE MERELY A DOUCHEBAG FOR THINKING THAT ST3V3 HAS ANY FUCKING CLUE AS TO WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT

what is TFL?

nabisco, in response to your concern about men, might I point out as several people on jez already did that instead of directing any of his violent acting out toward the people who HE KNEW had damaged him, because he described his fucked up family relationships in detail, this guy decides completely irrationally that all women deserve all the blame.

These guys want to effectively own women, own their appearances, their trotted-out affections, and treat all aspects of them as the men's own social capital. Would you defend a (historical, imaginary) slave-owner for being subject to pressures that made him believe it was important to own more slaves to keep up with his neighbors? Or treat his slaves worse to look more powerful in front of his peers?

"You can shake your little vagina around"

^^^R. Kelly songtitle

srsly where outside of dancehall/hip-hop videos are all of these women shaking their pussies around

what is TFL?

this

The degree of the abuse isn't even comparable, obv. But misogyny IS bigotry, and it is very, very seldom described as such.

Would you defend a (historical, imaginary) slave-owner for being subject to pressures that made him believe it was important to own more slaves to keep up with his neighbors? Or treat his slaves worse to look more powerful in front of his peers?

y'know DeTocqueville (love this guy, much respect) has an interesting take in Democracy in America on how the institution of slavery demeans and ruins not just the slaves, but the slave owners as well - because it makes them lazy, arrogant, etc.

I'm sorry Laurel but why on earth are you asking if I'd defend slave owners? Have I defended anyone on this thread?

I don't think nabisco is defending this guy; he's trying to understand him.

Am I?

"You're going to continue doing it with your pussies"

WELL I FOR ONE SHOULD HOPE SO

guys WHAT IS TFL

google sez its Transport For London

Okay "defend" was a strong word.

M@tt check that jezebel link i posted, there's some linx in there, "tru3 f0rc3d l0nelin3ss" is what it stands for. no idea how big this "movement" is but apptly sodini had some online contact with them.

xps

GO TO THE FUCKING SITE AND READ ABOUT IT, SHAKEY. And whoever else.

(fwiw I think nabisco is trying to discuss another general angle of human sociology which contributed to the gym shooting as opposed to specifically defending or attempting to understand the dude who did it)

tfl;dr

i don't think anything nabisco said was denying that misogyny is bigotry or that this guy's behavior is 100% indefensible. just that the constant pressure of being a real man and believing he was a total failure at being a real man destroyed the guy. and that he was unable to recognize that it wasn't the fault of women at all but like, patriarchal society, etc. for holding him to that standard. xp?

I don't know, nabisco! But what you're saying seems pointed in that direction. I mean, maybe not *this* guy, who had a lot of others wrong. But generally the relationship b/w violence and (socially constructed) gender roles: that's pretty important to understand better, I think.

Whoa, theres a tru3forc3dlon3l1n3ss.com but its down now.

I'm so glad the CIA and the feminists and the Illuminati got together and finally agreed to usher in this wonderful PUSSY RENAISSANCE

many x-posts

Yeah, and nabisco of all people is totally reasonable and I know comes from a fair place in his consideration of the issues. And if we want to RESOLVE the societal problem, then we should consider all causes and not get hung up on who's "right" and who deserves to eat their own genitals through a whole in their trachea. But I'm not really in that place today.

Hole. Obv. I'm typo-ing like crazy because I'm typing as if there were bugs needing to be smushed on my keys.

They can probably hear me 20 feet away. TAPPY TAPPY TAP TAP SMASH SMASH

umm the guy is clearly not right about anything and i wish he would have eaten his genitals through his trachea. but also nabisco otm.

remember that r0issy dude? we talked about him on my stellar and informative "anti-feminists" thread somewhere. well, he weighed in on this thing (no sense giving him direct traffic tho)

http://jezebel.com/5330560/gunman-murders-gym+going-women-misogynists-approve

I understand, Laurel, and that's why I said that this seemed like both a bad and an apt time to say what I was saying. Which, just to be really clear, here are the only three points I really advanced up there:

- I think some people who are good at thinking critically about the female experience of gender can be resistant to thinking critically about the male experience of gender in the same way

- I believe the guys in question have a very definitely fucked-up and problematic experience of gender -- not just women's gender or their opinions/beliefs about women, but also, deeper than that, their own personal experience of gender, masculinity, and sex

- I consider this a real and meaningful problem even apart from the fact that it can lead these people to be dangerous to women

isn't "Laffy Taffy" about girls shakin their labia

I especially like the part where the neighbor who was interviewed said she assumed he was gay. Since he was obsessed with masculinity FAR MORE than femininity (you'd have to think women were actually PEOPLE to bother to unpack what their options for being "womanly" might be), there's some poetic justice in his orientation in all ways EXCEPT sexual being far more centered on himself and other men.

she assumed he was gay

I admit, I lol'd

there's a on one hand/on the other kind of statement to be made here

on 1 hd: living within the classical misogynist idea-system, fully believing it, and failing at one's appointed role as a man, really warps a person's mind. this "failure" either causes or provides a serious perch for all kinds of other mental disturbances.

on the other: let's not kid ourselves, tho, this "warping" is not anywhere near as serious a moral issue as the real physical and material effects of misogyny on women. living out a role of master is "bad for you" but it's a better deal than being a slave.

helliott123 (1 month ago) Show Hide
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i sense the virginity is strong in you

ever since middle school a lot of girls have just assumed I'm gay, it makes things a bit difficult sometimes

yeah but his warped mind is gonna cause shitty physical and material effects on women because he feels he's entitled to cause them xp

I thought about deleting this post because in all honesty it's half-baked and I'm afraid it will piss people off, but I'm posting it because I spent some amount of time on it and it's an abstract thing that I've mulled over from time to time with no real conclusion or epiphany:

The biggest problem I see with discussing male gender issues is that there doesn't seem to be much interest in discussing them in a non-antagonistic or non-confrontational manner; it seems you have on one side the denigration of those issues by many concerned with female gender issues, while on the other you have people holding up everything fucked up about male gender issues as virtues. It starts leading me to a point where I start thinking that men lost the battle of the sexes to society in general and we're pretty much doomed no matter how we attempt to work through the issues presented by our gender stereotypes, as fulfilling them turns into a denigration of women but rejecting them turns into a rejection of men.

(btw yes that is a false binary for rhetorical purposes, I know that real life is nuanced)

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Posting that for myself, really, since all I can ever remember is the first two lines.

If it makes you feel any better, Dan, I have been drafting/deleting several things trying to get at similar things -- the general difficulty in talking about or dealing with male gender issues.

I guess the concise central idea I'd want to get in is this. There may be a lot of difficult and awful things in your experience of gender if you're born female. There may also be some difficult and problematic things in your experience of gender if you're born male. I wish it were more possible to talk about the latter without its being seen comparatively with the former. The topics are in no way opposed to one another. I think in fact they're the same topic -- our current conception of gender can be problematic for everyone. It tends to be hella worse in one direction, yes, but it's the same overall conception that's a common problem for lots of different types of people.

You're both right, and that's what I meant when I said, if we (possibly meaning "we women") want to solve the problem for the greatest number of people, we should attack the causes from all angles so as to lessen human suffering and mental anguish in general, and get a better and safer outcome for all. Admitting that here.

But goole correct about how being in the group that gets to be on top is still better than being in the group on the bottom, even if you're in the BOTTOM of the top. Hence "shit rolls downhill", the old saw about going home and kicking the dog, and impulses of all kinds to relieve your powerlessness at the expense of anyone weaker or supposedly subordinate.

lol I hope you see the irony of white people explaining the phenomenon to two black guys

(I agree with it, btw)

DUH

(This is maybe getting into nit-picking side issues but I actually don't like that thinking, where we presume being in a privileged group is inherently always better than not. These things are ... highly individual. I'm sure there are plenty of white people who've had more problematic experiences of race than I have. I assume there are women who've had better experiences of gender than some men, or at least have been better equipped to cope with their experiences. Etc. Not really important here, I guess, but just saying.)

Bigotry is just mere "disrespect" and misogynistic slurs (e.g., bitch, ho) are just "profanity" and rape jokes are just "vulgar" so hate crimes are just really, really...rude.

A good quote from today's comments. Good, for me, because I DO THAT. I AM TOTALLY GUILTY OF THAT. People ask me why it upsets me so much how men behave toward me and other women in public, and my outrage starts to seem a little excessive after enough people look at me funny, and I fall back on politeness standards as if it's a freaking tea party. IT'S NOT JUST RUDE. IT DEHUMANIZES WOMEN AND PERMITS INCREASED CRIME AND INJUSTICES AGAINST THEM. There, I said it.

To the guy who I biked past last weekend who said, "Pussy pussy pussy pussy" until I was out of earshot: I hope you die in a house fire.

where we presume being in a privileged group is inherently always better than not.

yep. "this leash demeans us both"

(^^^bonus Shakey points for anyone who gets this random reference)

To the guy who I biked past last weekend who said, "Pussy pussy pussy pussy" until I was out of earshot: I hope you die in a house fire.

homicidal rage is a funny thing

seriously were you just complaining about how damaging language can be or was it me

This is maybe getting into nit-picking side issues but I actually don't like that thinking, where we presume being in a privileged group is inherently always better than not.

It's partially a "grass is greener" issue and partially a rhetorical simplification; real life always is more nuanced but sometimes delving into nuance creates a paralytic response that impedes people from attempting to solve the general problem.

I do agree that the problem needs to be tackled with both men and women. I also agree that men have traditionally held a certain type of power and the friction of some of that power transitioning to the female gender is generating issues for both men and women. I think that going crazy with loneliness and turning into a woman-hating psycho is a tragedy with no easy answer regardless of how you look at it.

I didn't call him any derogatory names or ascribe his obviously personality problems to his being male or white or not white or any other personal quality. Also I already said that I'm angry today.

Any personality quality that I would have been able to discern while biking past him at 10 miles an hour, anyway. He was kind of short, do you think that's the root of all his bitterness toward women who pass him on the street?

hahaha

Short Guy Syndrome is definitely no joke tho

i think a big problem with the discussion of male gender issues is that a lot of dudes who are bitter about their issues find reasons for their issues in the fact that women have become far less marginalized and more powerful in society over the past 50, 100 years, as if it's some kind of war where one side pushing forward means the other side has to cede the ground they deserve.

omar OTM

its basically the same thing Dan articulated, that the only way to make themselves feel better is if other people (ie women) feel worse - like there's no independent yardstick for a gender-based valuation, it will always be made IN RELATION to the other gender. Ergo, if you are bad at attracting women, you are bad at being a man (or at least, a hetero man), etc.

now let's all relax with some amusing R. Crumb comix...

I recommend "Cave Wimp"

Well, if you value having complete control (or almost complete) over another person or group of, then it IS a zero-sum game. Any gain for the other side is a loss for you. Totally apart from expectations for men OR women there's a person- and society-destroying idea that complete mastership is an ideal in the FIRST PLACE. xp to about three other posts which have now said the same thing.

maybe it's this competition than men have in them (/ plainview) that leads them to want to regard women as an adversary, i dunno. sometimes i want to tell my male friends to chill the fuck out and regard women as people you can just hang out with and if you meet one you're interested in, hey, let something develop naturally and don't "run game" or play games.

that men*

Is that really that difficult? I mean, for guys like the ones you know? I don't know, I'm friends with a lot of guys (hi, most of ILX!) and I don't see this in them, but maybe it's something men say around other men?

Most men who are smart and sexually interested in women are too smart to say this type of shit around women.

frankly I've never known/been friends with any men who did the whole PUA/"game"-running thing - primarily because a) these guys are jerks and assholes that are invariably going to get into some trouble/unpleasantness (and I don't want to be around when it happens) and b) there's an inherent competition implied, and y'know, the only way to win that game is not to play.

Now that's not to say that among my male friends there are no disparities concerning who gets/got laid/found a suitable partner and some are/were better at it than others but avoiding the whole "pussyhound" culture is pretty easy. Or it was for me, anyway...

but hahaha also Dan OTM

i think for some of them (not all, and not most), they're so into the idea of women as sexual objects that they view women as either potential, current, or past/failed conquests. this is a very small minority of my male friends, i should have clarified.

I'm not counting JW.

For the record.

it's not like they're incapable of being friends with women without these issues coming into play, but it feels like they're always lurking. my one friend who had attempted to incorporate a lot of PUA philosophies into his life has largely abandoned them at this point, to his credit and noticeable improvement.

i've led a charmed life i guess, vaguely lefty family, tough professional mom, fairly ritzy college, live in a deep blue city now... anyway, whenever i run into a guy who even seems to place women in a different moral category from men, even if it's fairly benign, i'm shocked that the attitude still exists. it's like looking a daguerrotype or something. but i ought to know better.

Ha Laurel I want to hang out w/you sometime & get a rage-on w/you bcz it sounds like we both react in the same way to this kind of thing.

I think at some point every hetero male eventually commits to one of two ideas - you either a) realize you catch more bees with honey, and that being an asshole "player" type isn't gonna net you any long-term companionship, or b) you are basically not interested in monogamy/commitment and you are gonna bang as many women as possible come hell or high water, until you die.

Suffice to say I think the latter position is more evidence of some deep psychological issues than anything else, and is of course an emotional minefield (altho tbh all gender relations are an emotional minefield)... but that's just me.

"you catch more bees with honey" still sounds vaguely creepy, haha

I worked w/a kid once who was this really socially awkward 19-yr-old who also looked kinda goofy. He was always saying shit like, "oh YEAH I'm gonna BANG some pussy, I'm gonna hit the pussy HARD tonight," stuff like that (which was also obviously not true). "Why aren't more people CRAVING my COCK?" I explained to him one night that women don't actually like when men talk like that, and maybe that's why he was having a hard time meeting women. He was astonished! No one had ever told him this! Shortly after he tried to become some mystical life healer.

Anyway, it's weird there's people who don't ever make this connection, and (it seems) no one ever tells them this. It's a weird fucking world.

Let's do it, Abbot-san. You can come to New York and we'll get the girls together.

not all men are raised by wise women, I'm sorry to say

x-post

or men

I mean a dad cld transmit that info just as well I think.

yeah sure.

I think you can assume the only sexual info that guy ever got (prior to your pearls of wisdom, that is ) was from an abusive older brother type or something

i think some dads are so concerned about the masculinity of their sons that they end up raising them in a manner that ends up fucking up their view of women.

xposts - Laurel I think you might be off-base in viewing it solely as a zero-sum issue of control. I don't know how to talk about this, though, for basically the reason Dan says. I am kinda loathe to try and use any empathic qualities here to try and tell you how a murderous misogynist may not have been coming from a position of "control." I don't know: it's probably pointless anyway. But not all issues jacked-up guys have toward woman necessarily boil down to a pure-and-simple dominance/control thing.

What I do know -- what I wanted to say -- is that one thing I particularly dislike, and think we should all dislike, about the construction of masculinity is this: that it seems really uniquely able to create people like this. People who are profoundly limited in their ability to have healthy relationships with others. People who can go on functioning in complete resentful isolation without anyone even noticing. People who have very little ability to even understand how their inabilities to deal with others work, or what it means. People who experience these problems as such an unspeakable personal failing that they don't seem able to communicate any of it to anyone at a stage where they might actually be helped. (And, of course, in cases like this, people that eventually vent this stuff in acts of violence toward others.)

Any of those things individually can happen to women, too, obviously. But the general pattern and flavor I'm describing seems pretty specific to men, doesn't it? It's one thing that pretty disproportionately goes wrong with men, especially in terms of the violence. So part of why I feel like it's important to be able to talk about the male experience of gender is that, duh, horrible horrible things are coming out of it that we tend to notice most when a bunch of people wind up getting killed. Because I don't think it's just random psycho behavior. Often it's random psycho behavior that's totally gendered. And (maybe even more importantly?), I tend to believe that there is a very large number of non-dangerous non-psycho people who have a lot of the same problems and characteristics -- only we don't pay much attention to that, because they aren't harming anyone, just suffering themselves. We sometimes presume them to have complete agency and no experience of things like gender and figure they're pathetic losers, to be honest.

That's not incredibly well thought out, I know. I'm uncomfortable that that sounds like I'm linking mass shootings to the male experience of gender. Obviously I don't mean to; obviously very few men do that. Obviously lots of women experience isolation and resentment and plenty upon plenty of suffering, too. But there seems like this very particular gendered male version, and my first thought upon reading this shooter's blog entries was how much all his jacked-upness was so totally and recognizably male. I mean, gender culture as a whole has a part to play in turning out a person like that. I dunno.

That reads as dumb, and I'm sorry -- obviously it's "male" when someone keeps a blog about how he can barely get a woman to talk to him for decades and then goes out and shoots women

why don't lonely women go out and shoot men, I wonder

what struck me about sodini's blog was how little he talked about other specific people, other than his family, briefly, and how much he talked about himself. he was very much living in an interior world with walls that were under constant construction, so to speak

^^^yep. sounds like the dude's dad (and brother?) fucked him up good tbh

No no I am not at all disagreeing w you that there's something "masculine" about this kind of withdrawal and vengeance and reaction to powerlessness and so on. The only place I take exception is with this:

"And (maybe even more importantly?), I tend to believe that there is a very large number of non-dangerous non-psycho people who have a lot of the same problems and characteristics -- only we don't pay much attention to that, because they aren't harming anyone, just suffering themselves"

Because really you already know this, but I'm saying the same thing you are -- I also believe that there are lots of men with similar/related characteristics, and a lot of those characteristics lead to treating women in a very workaday, "normally" shitty way, which is normalized by its sheer OMNIPRESENCE. That those men are suffering is of interest to me only in a tikun olam sort of way, in that we can only benefit as a group if we benefit as individuals. And, as Soldini has proven yet AGAIN, that guy's mental wellbeing is actually my problem as long as he has the potential to MAKE it my problem.

off all the entries on that blog, i found this the most stunning:

May 18, 2009: I actually had a date today. It was with a woman I met on the bus in March. We got together at Two PPG Place for lunch. The last date for me was May 1, 2008. Women just don't like me. There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one. Not one of them finds me attractive. I am looking at The List I made from my May 4th idea. I forgot about that for several days. That tells me where I stand. These problems have gotten worse over a 30 year period. I need to expect nothing from me or other people. All through the years I thought we had the ability to change ourselves - I guess that is incorrect. Looking at The List makes me realize how TOTALLY ALONE, a deeper word is ISOLATED, I am from all else. I no longer have any expectations of myself. I have no options because I cannot work toward and achieve even the smallest goals. That is, ABOVE ALL, what bothers me the most. Not to be able to work towards what I want in my life. I believe I am deserve that. I read recently it is called "self efficacy", but who knows. Is that more psychobable?

Q: would his mental well-being be your problem if he were non-psycho and wouldn't harm anyone?

why don't lonely women go out and shoot men, I wonder

That's interesting, right? Because if you believe you were ENTITLED to something you desire up until someone took it away from you (society, feminism, all women), you can work up way more of a head of steam than if you've spent your entire life learning, in large and small ways, that no matter what, it's going to end up being your personal failings keeping you from having the thing you desire.

obviously it's "male" when someone keeps a blog about how he can barely get a woman to talk to him for decades and then goes out and shoots women

I don't see how this is particularly a largely 'male' experience but otoh a lot of my lady friends have been fucked up enough to kill themselves & think hard abt/discuss homicide (ie fucked up young women)

this was before blogs tho

lot of those characteristics lead to treating women in a very workaday, "normally" shitty way, which is normalized by its sheer OMNIPRESENCE.

see I don't get the impression this guy treated women in a "normally" shitty way (at least, insofar as I construe "normally shitty" to just be dismissive and generally inconsiderate/rude to women). That seems like a bit of a stretch, given the evidence we have at hand - it seems much more likely that he was just CREEPY and AWKWARD as opposed to, y'know, rude and aggressive and hostile. Like he was one of those guys who in general doesn't know how to talk to women and may start out being overly polite or withdrawn and then in the course of conversation comes out with some weird, left-field aggressively sexual come-on.

Which is not really what I consider "normal", that's pretty "abnormal". Normal would be loudly complaining about the number of ugly women in a bar or something.

x-posts

weird part about that blog entry goole posted is that he never even talks about the date beyond mentioning it casually.

I actually had a date today. It was with a woman I met on the bus in March. We got together at Two PPG Place for lunch. The last date for me was May 1, 2008. Women just don't like me. There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one.

uhh

Laurel I'm genuinely curious about your answer to that question!

That's interesting, right? Because if you believe you were ENTITLED to something you desire up until someone took it away from you (

but do you get a sense of entitlement from this guy? There's an overwhelming, omnipresent DESIRE, born of loneliness - but read that blogpost above, if anything, he hates that he is unable to achieve a goal, not that he hasn't been GIVEN what he "deserves". He's failed, as a man, because he cannot perform the most central of male social functions - obtaining a mate.

x-post

Today, nabisco, I need to say no. He can get some fucking therapy like the rest of us can do if we think we are too broken to find a way to live in the world. Because today I am just too angry and too struck by a lot of people's willing blindness to bigotry and hate crimes against women to be feeling like his unhappiness is my problem if he could magically be guaranteed not to harm anyone.

I can also imagine that even getting him to be willing to CONSIDER changing his beliefs would involve retraining him out of a lifetime of strongly held convictions and into their opposites for what can only be described as uncertain gain. IOW even if he DID change his view and behaviors, it STILL wouldn't guarantee him either access to women or success in any part of his life. So how can we appeal to someone like that, once the habits are entrenched?

i know! he skips entirely over basic details of who the woman is, how the date went, WHAT HE THOUGHT OF HER (maybe we're to infer that), what he imagines she thought of him. you'd think that would be obsessively catalogued, but no, it's not even important.

xps

Maybe I'll get a chance to ask you another day, Laurel

i think it's striking that in a lot of 'disgruntled shooter' stories i hear about, there were warning signs early on, but then the shooter gathered himself up a little bit and made a go of it, and then something happened that sent him crashing down into psychosis and mass murder. the 'christmas santa' guy from last year kinda falls into that category, i think.

like these guys view their moment of peace and happiness as an anomaly and the next bad thing that happens just confirms the worst for them. their worldview is so fucked that they can't see that bad shit happens to everyone (and the bad shit that happens to them is pretty run-of-the-mill)

He's failed, as a man, because he cannot perform the most central of male social functions - obtaining a mate.

Uh I don't have a mate either, and believe me, there are days when my personal failure in this area is kind of debilitating. Haven't shot anyone...yet.

cupid, draw back your bow...

Kind of tempted, tho.

well okay... but my point was that he wasn't espousing a POV of entitlement, of women OWING him their affection, or that he had the inherent RIGHT to "own" one or whatever. I don't really see that in his stuff. Its more about what a colossal failure he feels himself to be, and how he resents women for contributing to that sense of failure, for essentially making him a failure by finding him unattractive. This is a pretty different mindset from the "all women are bitches that owe me pussy" mindset.

x-post

Like, a lot of it was, I'm sure compounded by the relentless pressure from a male-driven society to compete, to demonstrate his manliness and virility in the most conventional way (I don't know if you feel a similar pressure from women to assert your femininity by finding a man, but I imagine its a bit of a different kind of pressure - probably one that ties into making you feel insecure about your weight, or appearance or whatever). For men it isn't about being physically attractive so much as its about power, the competition to be the alpha male, etc. If you think about it from a strictly anthropological/animal behaviorist point of view, the male that does not find a mate and reproduce is serving no function for the species as a whole, and in terms of other species, males that fail to mate are routinely killed or simply cast aside. That's essentially what happened with this guy. And he didn't want to be in that role.

wow that was not really very well phrased, sorry.

It's a tomayto/tomahto thing IMO; his inability to procure a mate would not have sent him into a homicidal downward spiral if it wasn't a central component of what he thought made one a successful man and his rage would not have been directed outward if there was no component of women being as complicit in his failures with them as he himself was. There is certainly an entitlement issue involved in shooting up a gym full of women because you are convinced none of them will ever date you.

He also was really vocal about his appreciation of "college" girls, a "hot little hottie with a beautiful bod", described his brother's success with woman as being low because the girlfriends he could get weren't very attractive, and said of his sister-in-law, "she has no body, no ass, no chest and no personality. (...) But she is highly intelligent and an excellent cook.(...) But who cares about that type of small bull crap?"

I can't verbalize this right now and I'm late for something important, but there's a direct relationship between women, in his worldview, having no value except as sexual and social capital, and a sense that at least OTHER men are entitled to that capital, even if he himself isn't uh, worthy. Or whatever.

"If you think about it from a strictly anthropological/animal behaviorist point of view, the male that does not find a mate and reproduce is serving no function for the species as a whole, and in terms of other species, males that fail to mate are routinely killed or simply cast aside. "

I wonder if men thought of their role in society in terms of that ev-psych/behaviourist stuff even fifty years ago? It's always seemed like it came into popular culture along with the PUA stuff.

I don't know if you feel a similar pressure from women to assert your femininity by finding a man, but I imagine its a bit of a different kind of pressure - probably one that ties into making you feel insecure about your weight, or appearance or whatever

Actually, my sadness is because society is made of up families, and I love the one I come from, and I fear never having one of my own and never being rewoven into society or taking part in making that totally awesome thing live again in a new form for a new generation. But that's just on the bad days.

"she has no body, no ass, no chest and no personality. (...) But she is highly intelligent and an excellent cook.(...) But who cares about that type of small bull crap?"

yeah this is some serious arrested development shit - like, if you are over the age of oh I dunno, 21, and thinking this way, someone needs to straighten you out.

x-post

More and more I think this guy and this day are a poor time to talk about certain things, because the end result was that he was so intensely jacked up that he went out and killed women. This not only handily wipes out any shred of empathy but also makes it really difficult to talk about certain banal problems he had, because in his case they were not banal; they were twisted enough to turn homicidal. Also he had agency, and used his agency in the most awful way, and any attempt to talk about the stuff going on with him where (I think) he had less agency is liable to be misread as an excuse for something totally different.

It really is too bad, though, because there are severe issues he clearly had that I wish I could be talked about, and don't really get to be talked about on other days.

(And part and parcel of the issues is that we don't talk about them when they're non-severe)

It can be talked about, it's just probably not a good idea to talk about him today with someone who has gone on record as being full of rage right now!

That's basically what I mean and why I said I'd ask Laurel another day, but even apart from Laurel, like ... this guy is just a bad way of talking about certain things, cause in the end the guy killed people, and that overwhelms certain shit

You think that level of misogyny rules out strip-clubs or call-girls as being an option? They seem to fit the "woman as object" pretty well but don't fit/satisfy this kind of psychopath. maybe thats evidence that the whole gender issue is an outgrowth of something deeper down.

We'll get Robert Bly in here to moderate the debate.

There's this diary quote on the first jezebel post that struck me:

"I dress good, am clean-shaven, bathe, touch of cologne - yet 30 million women rejected me - over an 18 or 25-year period. That is how I see it. Thirty million is my rough guesstimate of how many desirable single women there are. A man needs a woman for confidence. He gets a boost on the job, career, with other men, and everywhere else when he knows inside he has someone to spend the night with and who is also a friend. This type of life I see is a closed world with me specifically and totally excluded. Every other guy does this successfully to a degree."

It's that "a man needs a woman for confidence" thing that I can't get out of my head -- a woman as an accessory that would make him better at life (and would prove he was better at life). So it's woman as object but it's designed so that strip clubs and call girls would not suffice.

also the idea that all the desirable single women in the world have rejected him already.

That was the statement that I found the most telling.

he sounds like an extreme example of what i think a lot of guys do, which is to say they don't improve themselves but wait around passively for someone to come around and make their life better.

he may have "dressed good" but his grammar was fucking atrocious

he knows inside he has someone to spend the night with and who is also a friend

maybe its stating the obvious to point this out but ^^^this totally contradicts this: she has no body, no ass, no chest and no personality. (...) But she is highly intelligent and an excellent cook.(...) But who cares about that type of small bull crap?

he wanted some highly unattainable ideal, basically

body ass chest personality = 'desirable' traits in woman to spend night with who is also a friend
intelligence, cooking skills = not 'desirable' traits in woman to spend night with who is also a friend?

i have to say when i first read that entry i glossed over 'he knows inside' and assumed it was quite baldly stating that guys w/ visible girlfriends do better at work and with other men. So I'd have guessed that having a physically attractive girlfriend was the better status symbol.

well its not so much that the individual criteria are contradictory as much as the first set is essentially empathetic (someone who cares, who will be there for him, is a friend) and the second set is more like a series of things you would give a grade for on a dating show (appearance, cooking skills, intelligence, personality, etc.). The first set is about an actual relationship, the second set is about meeting some kind of arbitrary standard.

only one thing about the first set is empathetic - the rest is "it is a boost to a man's success in life to have the self-esteem of knowing he's got a girlfriend".
(and then the second set reads to me like "the faults of my brother's wife that make him less of a success")

Keep up the good work, TGSCOM!

Thompson said in a statement referring to Sodini himself that he was "deeply saddened by the tragic loss of life at the hands of a disturbed and socially stunted man."

the problem was the women were unarmed while exercising

This is the only thread that actually scares me every time it gets revived.

the problem was the women were unarmed while exercising

I lolled

The Whittier dating guru connection.

He also tells his audience, "It's normal to be scared when you have been hurt by women in the past," and adds: "The first woman that hurt you is your mother. And that lasts a lifetime."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/6705917.html

lol

i mean lol at the revive not the shooting

this dude's name is gonna have a loooot of crazy paranoid people poppin off

they shouldn't let the military have guns

this is gonna be like that doctor who thread, in that it's too late to do a new thread so everyone waits until 2010

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33726074/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/os-shooting-reported-downtown-orlando-20091106,0,2642883.story

the thread is going backwards now

For once, a happy ending to one of these

In a scene reminiscent of other school shootings, a Northern Virginia Community College teacher spotted a weapon and ducked to avoid gunfire. Students ran from the classroom building while others barricaded themselves inside, piling desks in front of doors.

This time, though, no one was hurt.

Police said Jason Michael Hamilton, 20, opened fire in a classroom Tuesday with a high-powered rifle, but did not hit anyone and surrendered peacefully in a hallway. He was later charged with attempted murder and discharging a firearm in a school zone and was being held without bond.

A neighbor described Hamilton as a loner who lived in his family's basement in an affluent new subdivision near the school in Woodbridge, about 25 miles south of Washington, D.C. Two police cars were outside his home and wouldn't let reporters close.

I used to live about 15 minutes away from there, in Fairfax.

oh, it's not gonna help his case that he found one more thing to suck at.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8446728.stm

CNN: Suspect identified as Timothy Hendron; no word whether he's among those killed

oh i guess that's old

Upon arrival, a police SWAT team moved methodically through the plant for the next four hours, unsure if the gunman was among the deceased. Hendron's body was eventually found and is awaiting identification.

rolling disgruntled shootings thread 2010

hah i thought this was the new thread