The BBC wants us to talk about whether white working class Britain is becoming invisible?

Well, some of my thoughts on the Powell one are on the Powell thread (and also in the BBC and Ofcom's complaints email inbox awaiting reply). I haven't seen any others, but if the Powell one was anything to go by, it seems to have been handled very clumsily. But, like I say, I've only seen that one.

How can it possibly be invisible when Dom is helpfully here to remind us every single minute of every single day?

I also disapprove of the BBC claiming to be asking whether white working class Britain 'is becoming' invisible, when really what these programmes are discussing is how white working class Britain FEELS.

That for me is one of the most confusing things about this. I think they by invisible they mean, to those who have power over them. So the people in the survey feel, for instance, that they are bottom of the pile when it comes to getting access to resources.

I agree, and if the bbc were being responsible they'd have made all these things clear instead of going for 'controversial' and 'edgy' (= publicity-seeking, emotive, unhelpful).

the trailer was really emotional though. made me really want to watch the whole series. then i went to the website and thought the actual programmes looked not that interesting. apart from the working men's club one but i missed that now. in it on iPlayer or something?

I'd rather they explored the idea that while multiculturalism in the UK is in many ways a roaring success (in terms of the range), actual cohesion and integration of these cultures is a bit of a joke, or may not actually work in a way that results in both equality and the retention of genuine diversity.

there's one about the multicultural school on wednesday. ironically i'll miss it cos i'm learning french that night.

I wonder how many of these programmes The Guardian's Joseph Harker has actually WATCHED.

Nice inadvertent segue, incidentally, on Friday evening - the working men's club doc on BBC2, straight into Al Murray's Happy Hour on ITV1 with an audience of hundreds of white folks proclaiming that they don't want to be France or Germany.

xpost kinda disagree, cohesion between cultures was fine until politics & media decided to start stirring it up around 98/99 ( migration from Kosovo seemed to be the catalyst for the media panic?)

or, if not fine, OK and going in the right direction

But re. resources it really isn't true! Example: in the borough where I live, applicants for council housing automatically have higher priority if resident in the borough for 10+ years, which naturally advantages residents who self-identify as WWC. In my contact with people waiting YES there was a great deal of resentment for those seen as less entitled but I had to consider the source each time, and each time the person hating on their fellow poor person could maybe, just maybe, have made better life choices instead of trying to deflect that reality by pointing out someone else as less deserving.

Perhaps the proper issue to unpick is the increasing shell game played on the public regarding the deserving and undeserving poor; we are encouraged to focus on a notional working class which self-identifies as such whatever the reality of employment status. It is a situation in which everyone feels insecure and not responsible for prevailing conditions; simpler thinkers look for someone to blame.

cohesion between cultures was fine until politics & media decided to start stirring it up around 98/99 or, if not fine, OK and going in the right direction

how so tho?

It would have been magic if the Powell programme had pointed such things out re: resources! But instead it pointed out how people felt and the reasons why they might feel that without exploring whether the reasons were well-founded or not ie: without giving any decent basis for deciding whether WWC Britain is really becoming invisible or not. So, of course the series is encouraging 'debate' but not informed debate...

I didn't see the program. Did it talk at all about the destruction of manufacturing, or the change in employment structure in the UK since the 1970s?

Moved from the enoch thread.

As far as the filmmaker was concerned, he may have been 'moved' by the situation, but at least the film did not insist that the viewer was to feel the same way. No, I couldn't place the last song either, but the conclusion I came to was that the WMC's were dying out because they were. A lad, given the choice between going down the WMC with his lass or going down the town to a 'glitzy' pub and drinking 2 beers less would choose the latter. On a dull tuesday, he'd maybe go down with his dad to where the beer was cheaper, etc. The WMC 'committe' may well have the problems they stated, but making the changes necessary to update the image would be unthinkable. So, Keith gets to sing his repertoire, and time gets filled, more or less. (Oh, and I do come from this sort of background, that's not a 'I know what I'm takkin about like' statement, but it's more than second-guessing. We laughed, we felt sad, got disgusted, and reflected, like anyone else watching that didn't 'get bored' by watching working class people.

-- Mark G, Monday, 10 March 2008 12:20 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

...or would be perfectly happy watching Phoenix Nights.

How many times do you get people in the media state "there is no working class anymore" ?

cohesion between cultures was fine until politics & media decided to start stirring it up around 98/99 or, if not fine, OK and going in the right direction

how so tho?

it's not mentioned in the newspaper/telly every day.

Usually middle class people in the media, too (xp).

"There is no working class anymore" - are they talking about the inside of the Guardian HQ?

let's say it's true that a sense of things worsening has been caused by political and media stirring. but what inspired that itself? blair popularity still at peak level? diana dead and it's all the fault of those 'bloody arabs/frogs'?

i might agree with this (not the diana thing ha) but think it happened a bit later. war on terror and 'polish invasion' seem strangely synchronised in that i didn't become aware of either as things until late 2001.

Fuck 'em! They're white, which means that, effectively, they rule the world (okay, so I'm not entirely serious about that)

I'm reminded of Chris Rock's point that no white person would ever swap places with him, even though he's rich; because being white confers far more of an advantage in life.

I, for one, am quite happy to swap a little white disenchantment for say having racial abuse hurled at me on the street on a fairly regular basis or for having to grow up being absolutely terrified of the police because young, previously perfectly healthy, black men had a habit of mysteriously dying in police cells from "heart attacks"

The discussion should be about class not race - the working class get screwed over regardless of race.

The discussion should be about class not race - the working class get screwed over regardless of race.

yeah but surely white working class deserve more of a voice innit.

Can't stand that phrase "I, for one." I mean, what else could it be? "I, for two"?

Well, as opposed to the unspoken "and I think I speak for every right minded person when I say" which is the subtext to every 'the man the govt dread because he speaks OUT!' columnist.

The discussion should be about class not race - the working class get screwed over regardless of race.

yes, I agreeish. but people who identify as "working class" are not always without money or power.

it's poor people who are being screwed, regardless of "class", "race" or any other identification.

Back before the turn of the century it is relevant to remember that the British public generally felt more enfranchised; ISTR first-time buyer housing being a matter of getting together 10k and having an income of +25k - not beyond the remit of working people of many class backgrounds. I think housing angst really has a lot to do with this issue; also a greater range of people identify as poor now.

... whereas nobody describes themselves as "rich", oddly enough.

I want to live like common people

xpost no, its always "comfortable"

The white working class seem to like to blame their problems on immigrants, which is a useful smokescreen for the actual people to blame.

LIZARDS!

also a greater range of people identify as poor now

too bad they don't/can't afford to post here

i'd swap with chris rock, if he's offering. i suspect he isn't, and it was part of his act.

Also I think you would find it difficult to continue his career in the manner to which we have become accustomed.

I'm reminded of Chris Rock's point that no white person would ever swap places with him, even though he's rich; because being white confers far more of an advantage in life.

I see no actual offer here.

i'd swap with chris rock, if he's offering. i suspect he isn't, and it was part of his act.

i see no actual statement here that there was such an offer.

Me neither.

Back before the turn of the century it is relevant to remember that the British public generally felt more enfranchised; ISTR first-time buyer housing being a matter of getting together 10k and having an income of +25k - not beyond the remit of working people of many class backgrounds

£25k =£481 per week.
Even in 2002,
61% of full time male workers earned less than £481 per week
77% of full time female workers earned less than £481 per week

Those averages include the London anomaly ie male London ave income
£10k higher than the UK mean & £13.5k higher than Yorkshire+the Humber

(apologies if anyone checks and I've got my maths rong; source at http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7698&More=Y )

( my point being that £25k was and is well beyond the remit of the majority of working people in the UK )

the 'average wage' of this country is distorted upwards through use of mean instead of median.

Also I think you would find it difficult to continue his career in the manner to which we have become accustomed.

"On one side, there's black people. On the other, you've got Martin Jol. Martin Jol has got to go. I love black people but I hate Martin Jol. I am tired of Martin Jol. Tired, tired, tired."

'Jolson out' best i could do

"chris rock on martin jol" is an NBC special i'd actually watch.

"Another thing about Martin Jol- He brags about things he's APPOSED TA DO."

How can it possibly be invisible when Dom is helpfully here to remind us every single minute of every single day?

-- Masonic Boom, Monday, 10 March 2008 11:53 (9 hours ago) Link

I don't, and never have, self-identified as "white". Zing denied.

i hate the advert for this series. it almost made me NOT want to watch any of the series as i thought it was going to pander to peoples prejudices about immigration/this country being ruined forever by people of other races/religions etc. i heard some of the radio 4 docu on enoch and was surprised at how sympathetic it was towards the supporters of enoch/enochs views himself, regardless of whether they were founded. i dunno, i think a series about white working class identity is a good thing, but calling it 'white season' and taking the focus they have done, just makes it a bit contentious to me. like its trying to pitch this british 'whiteness' against everything else. i dont feel thats all that helpful right now.

BBC trying to prove they're not a bastion of liberal elitism by constant racist trolling, innit?

Well, it's just common-or-basic white liberal middle class schtick isn't it? "The white working classes are, as we know, all racist. But do they have a point?"

If you look at BBC local radio, or the darker reaches of 5!Live, or the viewers emails on PM, or a whole bunch of other output (HI DERE HAVE YOUR SAY), the BBC panders to this shit all the time.

Alternative scheduling for WHITE SEASON:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql7i_RE1ZGc&feature=user

What is it with these white working class people? They should be grateful to be lectured on their attitudes to immigration by people whose only contact with immigrants is the cleaners who are turning up to do the nightshift at their offices at 6pm!

Wow, this thread was so good, yesterday.

lol at Captain Feminism 101 telling the minorities to stfu

are females minorities?

this thread was good yesterday?

STOP BEING WRONG FOLKS

^thought that youtube link was gonna be David Banner shouting "white power" over Smells Like Teen Spirit

If you look at BBC local radio, or the darker reaches of 5!Live, or the viewers emails on PM, or a whole bunch of other output (HI DERE HAVE YOUR SAY), the BBC panders to this shit all the time.

-- Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 11 March 2008 11:30 (7 minutes ago) Link

can you really say that forums designed to express public opinion, used by the public, are 'pandering' to any particular viewpoint?

i think dom's closer to the mark, from what i've seen the programmes seem to be more- look at the racist working class, aren't we lucky we're not like that.

Thread's still good, despite racism v. sexism shellgame. Which is never productive and hopelessly naive.

It's a horrible bit of MC schtick because race mix and interplay between communities is basically tons better in the UK than most places in America or Europe (Italy, I'm thinking of YOU). Middle-class people who posit the chav racists LOL thing don't encounter WWC unless they're doing some kind of 'fieldwork' or are notionally 'get on your bikes' like a job in a fast-food restaurant will help. People are always going to feel hard done by and blame an Other (or feel like they're paying for that Other and can therefore shout the odds). What makes me uneasy is that in the name of 'feelings' their gripes gain traction and become manipulated by the employer/government class to make it more shitty for everybody.

xpost

I'm not just talking about public forums - even tho they're not any more representative of "the public" than, say, this place is - but the tone adopted by broadcasters on a whole bunch of BBC shows which is essentially "racists and cranks, call now for an on-air punch-up".

yeah, i had thought of that in the meantime, sorry.

middle class forgets if it wasn't for immigrants demographic change in UK would result in aged population and then who is going to pay for their pension oh wait and who are they going to sell their big houses to when they want to downsize to bungalow on south coast oh wait

but the tone adopted by broadcasters on a whole bunch of BBC shows which is essentially "racists and cranks, call now for an on-air punch-up"

'S entertainment, innit? Jon Gaunt's been on Newsnight and that Andrew Neil thing in the last coupla weeks.

If it's only entertainment then I look forward to the re-runs of the Black and White Minstrel Show.

but i thought middle class don't hate immigrants they hate working class, who hate immigrants

xxpost

middle class forgets if it wasn't for immigrants demographic change in UK would result in aged population...

Oh I think many a Guardian readers would say there were grateful for them, they just don't want to live beside them or have their children go to school with them... but they're not the racists here, it's the White Working Class

didn't know who Gaunt was, just looked him up after thinking you meant John of Gaunt and thinking "b-but he's been dead 609 years".

middle class hate immigrants via proxy

cf ""The white working classes are, as we know, all racist. But do they have a point?"

Jon Gaunt's been on Newsnight and that Andrew Neil thing in the last coupla weeks.

so has Jade 'working class racist' Goody

At least she's not white though!

though I guess they don't hate them as long as they stay 'in their place'.

I'll take the argument that its really class hatred masquerading as racism though

Does anyone have any photos of Jon Gaunt when he was a groupie for Duran Duran?

Sorry, does anyone have any photos of straight talking man of the people Jon "Gaunty" Gaunt when he was a groupie for Duran Duran?

It's a horrible bit of MC schtick because race mix and interplay between communities is basically tons better in the UK than most places in America or Europe (Italy, I'm thinking of YOU). Middle-class people who posit the chav racists LOL thing don't encounter WWC unless they're doing some kind of 'fieldwork' or are notionally 'get on your bikes' like a job in a fast-food restaurant will help. People are always going to feel hard done by and blame an Other (or feel like they're paying for that Other and can therefore shout the odds). What makes me uneasy is that in the name of 'feelings' their gripes gain traction and become manipulated by the employer/government class to make it more shitty for everybody.

-- suzy, Tuesday, 11 March 2008 11:43 (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Point on interaction of "white" and "other" in the UK being much better than it is anywhere else in the world, but surely that's just as a result of colonialism? Ie: Jamicans, Indians, Pakistanis etc had 300 years to become more "English" before emmigrating en masse? Which would mean that emmigration from countries not formally occupied by England (ie, Poland, Albania, Romania, etc) is going to automatically result in less integration.

who do immigrants hate?

(by proxy, i mean)

people who stayed at home.

who do immigrants hate?

-- ken c, Tuesday, 11 March 2008 12:07 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Other immigrants, qf Birmingham

More recent immigrants.

The worst anti-immigrant racism I've personally encountered was a gang of black teenage girls insulting an east-european bus driver :/

I'm guessing the fact that he was a bus driver was more important than the fact that he was East European

yeah, it's all "just off the boat", or "johhny just come" isn't it? Both of these come from s London kids describing Damilola Taylor on TV in the wake of his murder.

What was on their mobile phones tho?

I don't think Dom's colonialism argument really follows, especially when you compare the UK to France, Spain etc which also have huge imperial hangovers but are way behind the UK in terms of racial integration.

Also in what universe does "becoming more English" in Indian standards translate as "becoming more English" by, I dunno, Bolton standards?

There's so much strawman building on this thread that it's difficult to take most of the arguments seriously even when I agree with them.

Maybe the white British working classes are just NICE PEOPLE

"Becoming more English" by Bolton standards? Does that mean they have to grow two haircuts?

http://varifrank.com/images/mother_oak.jpg

"Garlic bread? Garlic bread? Garlic? Bread?"

I think Dom's point wasn't wildly off-beam but maybe it plays more like this: the same kind of reactions have happened each time a significant number of people have immigrated to the UK from one particular country, but those reactions get forgotten about or looked back on as being "quaint" cos it was the 50s/60s/70s.

I think there were significant differences between British and French or Spanish colonialism, too. Not that one was "good" colonialism, like.

Isn't "Englishness" a kind of valued quality in Indian culture though? Or at least in certain castes? Or am I way off base with that?

Well, see the film "Brick Lane" for that.

the fixation on immigration is wrong as has been said.

are there now fewer British people who would subscribe to the working class label than ever before?

this question along with general discussion of the status and nature of working class culture is interesting enough on it's own (altho not without extensive contribution from those very people) without factoring in immigration.

Does massed immigration make social mobility harder? If warehouse/production line wages are dropping, it makes it a lot harder for working classes, of any nationality or colour, to make inroads towards getting on the housing ladder, surely?

are there now fewer British people who would subscribe to the working class label than ever before?

You'd think so, but polls consistently suggest otherwise

I read that self-identification as working class has actually gone up in the last ten years.

are there now fewer British people who would subscribe to the working class label than ever before?

Don't know if it's fewer, but simply by dint of the kind of jobs in this country the working class has changed radically from 30 years ago. Self-identifying as working class needs some kind of class consciousness. Destruction of skilled trades has got to have impacted that.

NV - yeah I'd agree with that, re: colonialism.

The class of people emigrating to Britain plays into this as well, it is much easier to 'integrate' if you an educated middle class Polish dude than if you aren't. It's usually lower class immigrants who get the worst shit, see also every mealy-mouthed "we don't mind immigrants who bring a valuable skill to our economy" right-wing editorial disclaimer ever.

(Many xposts)

Some cool books by black people that might address Dom: To Sir With Love (which I have in a lovely Ace paperback c. 1962) bears only passing resemblance to the film; it's actually a memoir written by ER Braithwaite, who was the black teacher in the East End we remember from movieland and there's a lot about the entitlements of British subjects as imagined collectively by a really inspired/patriotic Colonial cohort (Braithwaite was from Guyana). Also Ekow Eshun's Black Gold of the Sun traces the colonial relationship in ways that wind up freaking the author out.

Also: MICHAEL COLLINS THE LIKES OF US

guys we are all missing the point here, which is the mysterious pulsating nexus of visualised opinion found on the upper-right of bbc.co.uk/white -- i've been trying to figure it out for so long i think i've achieved some kind of satori

nb i agree with the bulk of you in that the problems of the white working class are problems shared by all of the working classes; bob crow said as much the other night (and jon gaunt agreed with him!) and went on to say that the bbc, by conducting its polls only among white people, were reinforcing and even creating the very racial barriers they're purporting to study -- 100% on-point

something that struck me in the interviews with random local wacky town racists is that the common thread seemed to be that immigrants "get away" with things that white people can't or don't "get away" with -- that immigrants have a "license" to behave in certain ways that goes beyond what the speaker feels he or she is "allowed" - i think this is a rich and potentially bottomless seam and if the bbc can dig and work at it, they may have something. however i don't think they will.

(it seems to me a very close cousin to the complaint among american born-againers that women who have abortions are "getting away" with something they shouldn't be, that the right to an abortion constitutes an outrageous "license" to go buck wild and sleep with the whole town)

dom i also think your second post is devastatingly on-target:

"The white working classes are, as we know, all racist. But do they have a point?"

what is really a season about white racism -- whether the creators realise it or not, which worryingly isn't clear -- is presented as a series about the white working class in general

Kind of despicable, when you get right down to it

There isn't a specific allegiance-swearing thread is there?

Lord Goldsmith said that while he favours an oath of allegiance to the Queen, the statement could be a pledge of commitment to the country or a statement of what the rights and responsibilities of citizens are.

He also stressed that he could not see why Republicans would not want to swear an oath, even though they may not believe in the present system of government.

Excellent.

i'm v interested in the show about polish immigrants tonight -- surely even the bbc would admit that these people are "white"?

I think this will be the perfect opportunity for the BBC to show how feckless and workshy the White Working Class of Britain are

the Polish in Peterborough thing's most interesting issue may be that the mayor of Gdansk comes over here to urge Poles to return - those Euro 2012 stadiums ain't building themselves you know

It's all go in Peterborough!

up the posh

oath of allegiance to the Queen

the country's that do have oaths of allegiance e.g. the US, surely have them just as much, if not more, coz they wanted to show what they were not, e g. "hmm, dude over there doesn't seem to be saying his oath with due vigor, could he be a supporter of BAD KING GEORGE in disguise?"

funny thing I've noticed abt Polish blokes in Oxford - even the really really educated middle class ones look like they are sterotypical members of the UK working class eg lots of white sportswear, baseball caps, shaved heads or at the v least close cropped hair.

BBC HYS reaction to Queen alleigance? NEIN DANKE
surprising really

They come over here... shaving their heads... wearing our White Working Class Sportswear (xp)

lots of white sportswear, baseball caps, shaved heads or at the v least close cropped hair

I call this Porter A L'Eiffel 65

i don't think flashy sportswear and cropped/gelled hair is unique to britain

flashy sportswear = oxymoron?

oxymoron = White Working Class resident of Oxford?

that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard you say Tom, you clearly have never been here for any longer than it takes to make a Guide Friday open top bus tour around the colleges, or else you would know that one of the largest council estates in England, Blackbird Leys, which was the largest when it was constructed in the 1960s, is here, and there are other council estates at Barton, Rose Hill and Northway.

Sorry? What do you mean? It was a pun.

Ha ha, right, OK, I should have noticed that!

heheh - I was just going to jump down yr throat and then I read it again!

I had the priviledge of visiting Blackbird Leys when they were doing their race track thing which was reported by the press as 'BL residents sit out every night to watch boy racers use their estate as a racetrack.' And while there were some residents who did get their deckchairs out to watch there were many who were totally appalled. I get the feeling from this series that some wwc folks are still invisible to the bbc, i.e. those that won't perform/conform to the beebs agenda.

oh look it's man of the people John Gaunt on the alan titchmarsh show

There are now more Poles leaving the UK than arriving. Which is exactly what you'd expect to happen as economic opportunities there get closer to those here. I'm surprised that that threshold has been reached already, but less surprised that it happened before the BBC noticed that the poor might not be totally happy about it.

xp
Not the first time I am grateful to be at work and away from a televsion.

gaunt and clannad in the same place, once in a lifetime

The zloty is at a high

Why do I laugh eveytime I read the word 'zloty'? I are retarded.

There are now more Poles leaving the UK than arriving.

Bye bye pretty girls :(

Could it be that many Poles are leaving the UK as it lurches
towards becoming an Islamic state?

James Pawlak, West Allis, USA/Wisconsin

IsLOLic state, more like

Bye bye pretty girls :(

Most OTM thing on thread so far.

I was behind a Polish couple in Sainsbury's last night and when asked whether they wanted any "kids vouchers" they had a long debate between themselves before finally both vigourously shaking their heads and saying "no, no - definitely not".

LOL foreigners!

And yes she was very pretty. And he was too actually.

I'm interested to know what class Em and I count as; we both work at a university in clerical or technical roles, our combined income is a bit over £30k, we have a mortgage, we both have degrees, we own a car, can afford a few (2-4) bottles of decent wine a week, etc,etc. Culturally rich, fiscally not.

i think you count as 'sickeningly middle'

Class is only vaguely about money, really. But yeah, agonising over what class you are = middle class.

I'm hardly agonising over it, but I take the point, Ismael!

I'm just surprised you didn't already know.

Well we DO know, I guess; I'm quite intrigued by this odd space that exists between 'working class' and old fashioned 'middle class' though, a space where I imagine a large chunk of ILX exists - under 35, university-educated, earning less than £25k, parents probably didn't go to university, etc. We're not in the labradors&Range-Rovers sect, far from it.

To be fair, that's not very intriguing.

As far as I'm concerned that's pretty solidly middle-class, but hey.

The BBC should do a season on it

You can afford to waste your entire working day on the the internet = you are middle class almost by default. And if you secretly hate the Jews, we at the BBC would like to talk to you.

i don't like being categorised as being in the same class as you people because i didn't get to go on holiday to Europe as much when i was a kid.

as much

I just think 'middle class' is too big and wooly a definition. It doesn't mean anything. 'Working class' and 'underclass' don't mean an awful lot either, but they mean more than 'middle class'. I'm pretty sure my dad wouldn't self-identify as 'middle class'. The fact that I've not got time to properly express what I'm on about here isn't helping.

[To be fair, that's not very intriguing.] = latest most OTM thing in thread

blueski, you are not in my class and never will be

ha ha, QUITE

You can afford to waste your entire working day on the the internet = you are middle class almost by default.

so if i'm an office temp on minimum wage i'm middle class?

almost by default

the £7ph job the locals don't want

AKA The "monotonous, physical job with 60-hour weeks and no tea breaks" the locals don't want

but no-one's complaining!

It's those poor struggling farmers I feel sorry for

i'm v interested in the show about polish immigrants tonight -- surely even the bbc would admit that these people are "white"?

-- Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 11 March 2008 13:44 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Link

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this will be the perfect opportunity for the BBC to show how feckless and workshy the White Working Class of Britain are

-- Tom D., Tuesday, 11 March 2008 13:48 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Link

if this series is meant to be about CLASS why the fuck is the title about RACE?

£25000 a year jobs UK workers don't want!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7288430.stm

Oh, you have to work 60 hours a week, btw...

Is that the same as the £7 an hour job upthread?

Oh yeah, didn't see. Anyway, it's a dumb story.

There are lots of jobs that pay £7 an hour, doesn't mean people want to work in that particular industry. They say 25 grand a YEAR, but wouldn't you only be working at harvest time anyway?

Re working class racism: I work in an office with MC folks and almost the only time most of them discuss politics at all is when they're moaning about "immigrants" or "asylum seekers". There aren't even that many round here.

hi guys
http://www.mymanchesterjobs.co.uk/Jobsite/Jobs/644302/Customer-Service-Admin

for less than £7 an hour you can work in the office and go on the internet all day and thus make the leap into becoming middle class.

is that real? did they type in her email address with their (there?) eyes shut?

it's actually real. but would someone from poland have spelt lightyear correctly? don't think so

it would have been like lightsky or something

I'm from one of the whitest places in this entire country and my extended family is about as racist as you can get without actually joining the BNP (although my dad is upset he can't vote for them as they don't have a candidate standing in my constituency). Maybe they'll interview my dad, he's full of theories.

Actually he's pretty much the living embodiment of the strawman working class racist "they're taking our jobs" guy. When I was on the dole a few years ago he reckoned it was because of the "fucking immigrants".

I don't, and never have, self-identified as "white". Zing denied.

-- Dom Passantino, Monday, 10 March 2008 21:20 (Monday, 10 March 2008 21:20) Bookmark Link

That's convenient.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XQKZpN5tExMC&dq=are+italians+white&pg=PP1&ots=5G1wiklzf2&sig=vt85DAKKN9ZC6qUccbBWDgQx_Ek&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=are+italians+white&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

Doesn't this hinge on whether other people treat you as if you are white or not? I'm half Jewish, but nobody (to my knowledge) has ever noticed or given me any grief for it.

dom is way more italian than you are half-jewish innit. people on this forum at least are constantly talking about how italian and non-white he is and how that enables him to get away with wearing scarves

Why, does he feel the cold or summink?

Italians aren't white? What on earth does "white" mean, then?

European? Anglo-Saxon? I'm confused.

When I first moved to NYC, I had a job in a big record store, and one of the Puerto Rican guys on my shift was always hitting on me and trying to get me to go out with him. He'd kind of come up to me in the aisles and invite me to a club and kind of pretend to dance with me in a really jokey kind of way, and I demurred joking back "oh no, you know white people can't dance..."

And he looked at me, slightly offended and said "I'm white! I'm Puerto Rican, I'm white!" And I felt a bit embarrassed because I hadn't meant any offense. He clearly meant "white" as in "not African" while I meant "Not European but Hispanic."

So I'm not sure what is meant by "white" in any of the discussions on this thread. "Non-Immigrant"?

This is why the polish community is confusing the kneejerk racists. It's like the ol' irish saying, "It's not until I actually speak that people realise I'm BLACK!!"

Did you hear that Robert Downey Jnr. was going to wear blackface for his next movie? I won't believe it until I've seen the photos...

but where, oh where, could we see such a thing?

I'm sure the vast numbers of Anglo-Italian families in London and elsewhere who are in every way part of the British working-class demographic are more likely to identify as White Other on 'the forms' than Other (Roman).

I can confirm that my Italian pals do indeed tick that box. Funny, we had this discussion only a couple of weeks ago. But they're from Naples and the idea of being lumped in with Romans would be too much to bear.

i tick white too

but only because it'd improve services for me in the long run

Did anyone actually see the Polish prog last night? I thought it was quite good, certainly the best if the bunch so far, seemed fairly well balanced and made some good points, even if (as has been mentioned) it may be out of date already what with...er...reverse(?) migration.

"I wonder how many of these programmes The Guardian's Joseph Harker has actually WATCHED."

he wasnt talking about the programmes so much as the marketing, and thats how most people are going to be watching this series. regardless of how the programmes subvert expectations created by the cretinous, awful advert for the series, the kneejerk response that ad created is still in the back of my mind.

"he looked at me, slightly offended and said "I'm white! I'm Puerto Rican, I'm white!"

maybe this was his way of continuing to hit on you, like 'hey im, white too!' anyway, white people need to stop using the 'we cant dance' thing as an excuse. skivers. get on the dancefloor.

I was a goth at the time. It would have been very funny to take him on a date down to The Bank and see him try to dance to Bauhaus. But alas, it was not to be. :-)

My husband got a response to his complaint to the bbc about the Powell programme. Here are some extracts, if anyone is interested:

"The programme argued that Enoch Powell's views were very complex so to dismiss him as racist is to simplify this point."

"Most of our contributors have a more complex appreciation of Powell's arguments about British identity and his place in the narrative of Britain's immigration history and do not simply brand him a racist. He was one of the most intelligent, articulate and influential politicians of the post war period, whose thoughts and arguments on areas as diverse as identity, immigration and even economic policy, still resonate."

"Powell's speech was couched in terms of prediction and prophecy. He famously predicted disaster ahead. Many people, including some of our contributors, believe his prophecies of segregation and violence, have been realised. We use a combination of archive footage from his speech, and footage of subsequent events like the 7/7 attacks to set up this idea and argument and also to challenge it."

"Broadly speaking this programme analyses the argument Powell articulated in his 'Rivers of Blood' speech and comes to the conclusion that some of his arguments about the rise of segregation and communal hostility were prescient. But it also highlights the political ambition that lay behind the speech, his lack of judgement, his inflammatory language and it concludes that by racialising the argument over immigration he did himself, the country, and the immigrant community a great disservice."

In other words, "thanks for that."

pretty much

Impartiality and sitting on the fence are not the same thing.

And I've just looked over my husband's complaint. He never actually says that Powell is a racist in it, so I'm not sure why the reply is so at pains to point out that to say so is a 'simplification'...

Having no telly right now I've got a lot of R4 exposure and the 'resonable plausible denial' is a regular form reply to pissed-off correspondents.

Aye, the reply answers none of his complaints really. And the idea that they brought up 7/7 just to challenge the notion that Powell's prophecies have come true seems a bit laughable, cos I'm not sure at where the notion was actually challenged. But there you go.

He wasn't a prophet so much as a stopped watch. I used to think evolution and interaction plus time would kill off the racist impulse...

one thing about this series is that it presumes all working class, or rather, ONLY white working class people hold these views. ive met plenty of middle/upper class white people who seem to feel similar, albeit express it differently, so it seems unfair to pin it all on the working classes.

"What if..." theorists ahoy; suppose the Tories had lost the 1970 election, prompting a leadership challenge in which Powell beat Heath? Would this have been feasible at the time and would they either have rendered themselves unelectable for eternity or got Thatcher into Downing Street four or five years earlier?

Mr X - this was the thing that really pissed me off. The 'we're all thinking it, but he/she/they/the bcc just said it' thing runs through the whole project.

Tomorrow on the BBC's WHITE season: the programme controller of Radio 1 explains why he doesn't play black music on his station any more.

because we have 1xtra.

Ask and ye shall receive; Downey Jr in blackface.

http://www.entertainmentwise.com/photos/Image/DOWNEYJR_TROPICTHUNDER.jpg

That picture deserves its own thread

I'm clearly not middle class enough to have read every thread.

Weeeird. One of my friends volunteered to live in whiteface for a documentary a few years back and wound up looking like Elliot Spitzer's nerdy brother.

Google isn't bringing up any photos of Mike Reid in blackface for that documentary he did.

BBC Radio Apartheid: The Truth Must Be Told.

funny thing I've noticed abt Polish blokes in Oxford - even the really really educated middle class ones look like they are sterotypical members of the UK working class eg lots of white sportswear, baseball caps, shaved heads or at the v least close cropped hair.

This so otm because I went to watch soccer in an Irish bar last night and had to guess which group of people was the one I was meeting, so of course I didn't ask the bunch of 20-something girls with ponytails, I asked the hardman table wot looked like ski--I mean, soccer fans. They were Polish and not interested in the men's U-23 qualifier.

Although they were really nice about changing tables for us later, they said "How can we not, you like football and beer!"

This so otm because I went to watch soccer in an Irish bar last night and had to guess which group of people was the one I was meeting

was this an internet football viewing meetup?

What else would I be doing on a Tuesday night? And that's the SECOND internet-related football viewing meetup I had yesterday.

He was one of the most intelligent, articulate and influential politicians of the post war period

Well i think we can all argue about what 'intelligent' means. He was super educated for sure and I think some people confuse the two. IF he was super intelligent than that makes his words just worse as that suggests he knew exactly what he was getting into rather than the whole "I'm just passing on my constituents concerns, don't shoot the messenger". I didn;t see anything in that programme that suggested to me any real foresight or, even understanding of anything other than "Oh No, Black People!". He was a relic. A nineteenth century politician unable to cope with modernity and looking for a scapegoat. A failed politician at that.

Can we say the same of Boris "P*cc*n*nn**s" Johnson in a couple of months' time?

We can say it now!

Oh, I see you mean if he loses the mayoral election? I'm not holding my breath.

I'm more worried about his winning because of idiots who'll base their votes on what the leader writer of the Standard tells them rather than their own, direct, first hand experience of things.

What else would I be doing on a Tuesday night? And that's the SECOND internet-related football viewing meetup I had yesterday.

i was just surprised that such a group existed that's all! i think it's awesome. :-)

"He was super educated for sure and I think some people confuse the two."

bang OTM

Ken, it's more like the msg boards developed so people who met each other at games could keep in touch and organize stuff. I'm just getting in backwards b/c I haven't been attending for a while. They were all v nice, btw.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23450274-details/article.do?ito=newsnow&

dismal.

Weeeird. One of my friends volunteered to live in whiteface for a documentary a few years back and wound up looking like Elliot Spitzer's nerdy brother.

-- suzy, Wednesday, 12 March

Might have seen this. Is there a bit where he goes to the dog races?

Can't remember, Bod. But if it helps he is a hairdresser and they did show him at work before and during, I think?

All I remember was that he had long black hair, a really weird nose and glasses in whiteface.

That's the fella!

Ahhhh... remembering old TV.

glasses in whiteface??! new thread req'd

How very disappointing and patronising these programmes have turned out to be. Viewers are left with a vision of all white working class as being racist, drunken, lazy, uneducated, lacking parenting skills, benefit scrounging thugs while portraying immigrants as hard working, close knit family unit, persecuted types who can do no wrong. A shameful betrayal of the British white working classes aptly demonstrating the institutionalised anti-British bias now rampant within the Corporation.

Mick Meggo

I dunno you just can't please some people.

Incidentally, anyone see the prog on Frinton? That could have part of the White season.

Frinton 'mocked' in BBC programme

Anyway it was a curious throwback to the rather more enjoyable documentaries like The Lido. But without the humanity. Which I think was the directors fault as much as Frintons.

I thought the Frinton programme was pretty predictable and didn't tell me anything I couldn't have already guessed, except when they started talking about having been misled about settling in Frinton and they had all somehow ended up here I was looking out for Rover the balloon and Orange Alert.

This doesn't mean that they should have been made fun of, which I didn't see much evidence of the film actually doing.

As for Griffin on Newsnight; surely it's best to let people come on such programmes and shoot themselves in the head rather than banning and canting and pretending it's not happening or properly investigating why people should feel inclined to empathise with or vote for them.

Italians aren't white? What on earth does "white" mean, then?

There's a story about Charles Mingus being interviewed and saying, "I don't employ white people in my band", and the interviewer saying, "But what about Charlie Mariano?" and Mingus saying, "He's not white, he's Italian"

As for Griffin on Newsnight; surely it's best to let people come on such programmes and shoot themselves in the head rather than...

So that explains why Jade Goody is popping up on the BBC so often these days?

Yes, the publicly-funded BBC who don't play black music on their mainstream radio stations (Radio Duffy) but regularly give space on their airwaves to known racists.

"The programme argued that Enoch Powell's views were very complex..."

Well the programme was wrong then.

Complex views: hated black people, didn't want people to think he hated black people.

Complex views: British Empire, setting sun, Colonel Redfern.

Hitler wrote his books in German, so you know that dude was intelligent.

Next week's Radio 2 Record Of The Week: reissue of "Free Rudolf Hess" by Jeremy Clarkson.

"45 years in captivit-iii, just for being a Naa-ziii..."

Clarkson is a very complex thinker.

Clarkson went to Oxford, you know. Saw them thrashed 4-0 by Port Vale.

"The programme argued that Jade Goody's views were very complex so to dismiss her as racist is to simplify this point."

"Most of our contributors have a more complex appreciation of Goody's arguments about British identity and her place in the narrative of Britain's immigration history and do not simply brand her a racist. She was one of the most intelligent, articulate and influential celebrities of the post Iraq war period, whose thoughts and arguments on areas as diverse as identity, immigration and even economic policy, still resonate."

"Broadly speaking this programme analyses the argument Goody articulated in her 'Shilpa Poppadum' speech and comes to the conclusion that some of her arguments about the rise of segregation and communal hostility were prescient. But it also highlights the political ambition that lay behind the speech, her lack of judgement, her inflammatory language and it concludes that by racialising the argument over immigration she did himself, the country, and the immigrant community a great disservice."

Clarkson went to Oxford, you know

Very nice preserves, I hear.

Speed edit ahoy:

"The programme argued that Jade Goody's views were racist. Most of our contributors have racist thoughts. Broadly speaking this programme highlights lack of language and it concludes that she did him."

Bye bye pretty girls :(

BBC provides more proof. Send 'em back (to Blighty), I say.

I'm moving to poland.

to steal their jobs and marry their wives, obv

mainly the wives part.

I'm also imagining a pint doesn't cost £3 in Poland

Not yet anyway...

... it's planned for 2050, at the earliest

That prompted headlines in the British press like: "Would the last person to leave Poland please turn out the lights?"

OK, Daily Express! You know who you are!

A portion of Bitburger is Zl.8 Or £1.70.

I don't know what a portion is but that sounds quite reasonable.

Oh, wait, it's half a litre.

a whopping 66 1/2 ml less! You one of these Binge Drinkers Giving This Country A Bad Name, Ned? ;-)

I'm confused. I need a drink.

A binge drink or just a normal one?

Chocolate drink binge
http://images.ciao.com/iuk/images/products/normal/191/product-6645191.jpg

Or even chocolate binge drink, I told you i was confused.

Chocopops

Is this like OK'S KERRY KATONA saying that she's going to LEAVE THIS COUNTRY and then when you read the piece what she's saying is she's so fed up that she might move to London in 2020 and take husband Frank Butcher with her?