do you want to have kids?

if you have kids already gtfo i just wanna talk to ppl who dont yet

someone just sent me a text with a picture of a baby on, "thought u mite like to meet my son :)"

Aw, but i don't recognise the number, they've not replied yet to my who? query.

thats pretty fucked up

those kids are charming and adorable i'm sure but is it worth 18-odd years of blood sweat and tears? i think not. none for me thanks.

look at their beautiful house! there must be a reason why people do this and not just because they get knocked up & cant get away from it

i think some people have kids just to prove to their friends that they're still having sex.

but i'm kidding of course

yourvaginaitsnotaclowncar.gif

i'll have someone else's kids for an afternoon. i can buy icecreams and teach 'em to say cunt. but after that them is going back.

I think it's one of the things in life one should do. I've no actual desire to though, sounds awful.

yall are sounding pretty bitter/kate st claire about this... whats wrong with having kids?

not now but when im really old like 30

I'm really old like 30 and I'm not ready, no way.

Ethan, quit it.

I'd rather not. This planet is rather overpopulated quite a bit already and more importantly, most people with children are intensely annoying.

Lazy 23-year-old-virgin-lol zing/.

in theory i'd like kids but whenever i spend time with actual kids my enthusiasm dampens a bit

People do seem to love children, it's a mystery. I lie of course, it's not a mystery. There's that bit in Lost in Translation where Bill Murray is going on about having kids and he says they turn out to be the best people you have ever known; and even though I don't have kids I still kind of empathise, I feel that he's totally right.

But still I think I only like kids in small doses if at all, I certainly have no love for babies, and Bill's speech and the above video do emphasise the positive and totally omit the negative aspects. What if one's kids turned out to be absolute horrors?

Haven't got any yet but it's on the cards in the next year or so. I'm 36, the wife's 31, think it's now or never.

How much you may or may not like other people's kids is absolutely no indication of how you will love your own kids.

xpost

i am definitely having kids. kids are awesome. not yet though -- i'm only 30! but for sure when i'm really old like 35

So you think ultimately it's just a gut feeling - either you want 'em or you don't? I think that's true for me.

xpost.

i want kids why because they look interesting

"kids: the older they get, the cuter they ain't"

"crazy: you don't have to be it to work here, but it helps!!!!"

I definitely want kids. In fact, we recently just talked about when this might happen and it looks like it'll (assuming all goes smoothly) be about three years from now. We'll both be 33.

I never really thought much about kids but during the last year or so I've become ridiculously baby crazy. I firmly believe that for some (but not everyone) there is a biological drive to have kids. I become crazy stupid when I'm around - or even just see - a cute baby. This is not normal for me and I'm blaming it on the drive to procreate.

the fact that my girlfriend keeps asking me to take her behind the middle school and get her pregnant is the reason i probably one day will.

i've always been determined to fight my genes, luckily they aren't putting up much resistance.

xpost kinda

i'm 30 v soon but having kids idea still feels 10 years away. number of people i know now parents has skyrocketed in the last 4 years but personal arrested development etc. too much other stuff to do first but also begun acceptance process that i may not actually be suited to it or may never got the opportunity anyway.

one thing i don't quite get: taking thousands of photos of your baby (and posting them on the internets) tho i guess you may constantly feel you're chasing 'the perfect depiction of perfection' or something

too much other stuff to do first

I worry about this but then figure that a lot of stuff can still be done with kids. It's also one of the many reasons I only want a max of two.

actually it's the other way around isn't it - let me have all this time to do NOTHING before i have kids and THEN have too much stuff to do forever

keeps asking me to take her behind the middle school

Oh, why bother . . .

I want to have kids, and gf wants kids, and I'd quite like to have kids with her and she (I think) with me. We've both got things we want to do first though, and I want to be making enough cash so that the kid doesn't want for anything ie not now.

a lot of stuff can still be done with kids.

Yes, but go to a nice restaurant with a small person and you'll be detested. Sure you can do lots of thigns with kids, but I'm under the impression that children have a habit of financially sucking you dry so you don't get to do anything else.

re. 1000000 baby photos: there doesn't seem to be much consideration of the David-Thomsonian narcissistic-experiential-FX of a new generation being endlessly photographed every 10 minutes.

i always think that i've got other thing to do instead, but then i realise that i spend most weekends either sat on my arse or lying in bed.

that shit is important

people who want kids, why do you think you want kids (i don't mean you only think you want them, but why you think it is you do)? other than hormones i guess...

i'm not hostile to the idea or something, i do really like kids: i live with a two-year-old and he's awesome, my bro just had a baby boy who already has a five-year-old half-sister and they're both brilliant, people at work have kids and i love hanging out with them, but... it's for the rest of your life, what if you end up with tossers for kids? planet is already way overpopulated (think this is starting to cease being the elephant in the room though, i've read a few articles about it in the last six months or so), it seems like the world is getting shittier all the time, plus what if they don't want to be born? it seems a really selfish thing to do to me, to bring someone else into the world just because of something you want. maybe i'll change my mind when my hormones kick in or something, but i cannot understand what the reasons are for having kids. please help me understand?

POLL

the planet is not overpopulated, civilisation is just grossly mis-managed

I'm under the impression that children have a habit of financially sucking you dry so you don't get to do anything else.

Yes, I agree. One of the best thing about being a only child was that I got to go a lot of places and do a lot of things with my parents that I don't think they'd have been able to do with more kids because of the cost. In fact, I'd want just one myself but now that I'm older I really wish I had siblings and wouldn't want to put my kid through that.

Scotland is depopulating.

the planet is not overpopulated, civilisation is just grossly mis-managed

Exactly.

everyone wants to live/is being forced to live in giant cities

having kids is definitely selfish but for some reason the same accusation gets lobbed at those that don't want them. perplexing.

i do want to have kids, or a kid, some day

it's funny this thing about the cost of children. for most of human history kids were basically indentured servants for the family; more kids meant more help around the house/on the farm, etc - people had as many as they could in order to EASE their finances, rather than the other way around

i'm basically one of these people that cringes at the thought but i am 100% certain that if it were to happen i'd be in it to win it - kind of like my attitude towards baths ca. age 5

therefore, all humans = selfish

QED!

TH, trust me, this has vastly changed. Kids are VERY expensive. But definitely worth every single fucking penny.

"thought u mite like to meet my son :)"

i would reply:"I think you might need to enroll in a spelling course before your kid takes an interest in reading and writing."

Just kidding. I think it's a VERY weird message to send. Maybe she's afraid you dislike kids? It must be hard being a single parent going on a date...

Cute video btw. Oh and I have kids, so I'm not allowed to post. :-( Sorry.

I'm about to get married so I'm probably 2-3 years from parenthood, which still intimidates me a lot but I'm getting used to the idea. I was always the youngest in my family (even out of all my cousins), so I don't have much experience being around babies or small children, but I know more and more couples with kids so I'm getting more comfortable around babies. The world may or may not be going to hell in our lifetime, but I'm glad my parents didn't let the cold war or whatever stop them from having kids so I'm not gonna let current events stop me.

why do you think you want kids

Um . . . I think it would be nice? Honestly, that's as far as my thought process goes. You're right, in that if they're rubbish you can't just give them back, and it is rather drawing a line in the sand and saying "your life now belongs to your kids", but it is a NICE thing to do. You get to impart your knowledge and wisdom and experience along the line, and with any luck they'll be good people who will make the world a better place, in the same way that with any luck you try and make the world a better place yourself. And yeh, kids are mega awesome to hang out with.

As well as all that hormones/biology stuff. Sure it's not a universal thing to want to make babies, but it's a natural human want.

And so for them not wanting to be born - apart from the teenage years (in which I assume they're going to wish they were never born, I know I did) nobody really feels that way, do they? I mean, being alive's quite good, isn't it?

stevie yeah, although i did get a kind of lecture from a financial journalist one time about how many people's pension plans these days basically amount to "kids"

(cue OTM tombot rant)

I know people with kids are banned from this thread but can i just say that this...

I'm under the impression that children have a habit of financially sucking you dry so you don't get to do anything else.

...i have found not to be true. You CAN, obviously, spend a friggin' fortune on the little tikes but it is not necessary. My kids have the bestest time doing free or cheap stuff - out in the woods, going swimming, playing football in the street (which is what they are doing right now), dressing up in old clothes. Yesterday I was mowing the lawn and they were just mooching about, totally content.

We don't eat out as much as we used to for sure, but we still go to the cinema, visit friends, have holidays. All without earning a huge amount.

I shall now gtfo as requested.

Oh, I see now there's a load of xposts which contradict my position! So, er...ok...

I really can't imagine myself as a father, like, at all.

The only thing I can say: if you are prepared to give up "yourself" then you're ready for kids. There's nothing as lifechanging as kids. It really kicks your world completely around. There's no way you can explain how good it is but also how much it changes every little thing in your life. It still amazes me.

Yeah, as much as I really want kids I have a hard time imagining myself as a mom in a lot of ways. It's fucking terrifying to be honest but that doesn't mean it puts me off the idea. A couple of my friends with kids who are great moms say this doesn't necessarily change and that they still sometimes think to themselves, "Holy Crap, I'm a Mom!" etc.

WOW Just found out who sent me the text. It was an old work colleague who i've not seen for a couple of years.

Funnily she was so against the idea of having kids last time I saw her.

pretty bloody fantastic news though. haha, it's made my day.

I would like kids someday, but if it doesn't happen I don't think my life will be over or something (and it might not happen, I'm 32 and single). Weirdly, though, my parents are very discouraging on the subject of children. They keep telling me that the world is a messed up place and that I'm better off without kids AND without a husband. They must be part of a secret, pro-spinster movement.

I feel for you, you little horror
Safe at your mother's breast
No lucky break for you around the corner
'Cause your father is a bully
And he thinks that you're a pest
And your sister she's no better than a whore.

Life seems so rosy in the cradle,
But I'll be a friend I'll tell you what's in store
There's nothing at the end of the rainbow.
There's nothing to grow up for anymore

Tycoons and barrow boys will rob you
And throw you on the side
And all because they love themselves sincerely
And the man holds a bread knife
Up to you throat is four feet wide
And he's anxious just to show you what it's for.

Your mother works so hard to make you happy
But take a look outside the nursery door
There's nothing at the end of the rainbow.
There's nothing to grow up for anymore

And all the sad and empty faces
That pass you on the street
All running in their sleep, all in a dream
Every loving handshake
Is just another man to beat
How your heart aches just to cut him to the core

Life seems so rosy in the cradle,
But I'll be a friend I'll tell you what's in store
There's nothing at the end of the rainbow.
There's nothing to grow up for anymore

I'm sure I heard that Nigella Lawson said of having kids, that you stop being the picture and start being the frame.

Fuck that I wanna be the picture.

For now.

i'm basically one of these people that cringes at the thought but i am 100% certain that if it were to happen i'd be in it to win it - kind of like my attitude towards baths ca. age 5

-- Tracer Hand, Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:26 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i love this.

i have none of those biological urges to have kids, you'd think they'd have kicked in already (i'm 29 in two weeks). i'm also too poor. and afraid of what happens when they turn into teenagers.

Some of them become 100% awesome.

I wonder if ethan started this to test the willpower of ILX parents when told not to post to the thread.

my best friend was pretty adamant about not wanting kids, less than a year ago, to the point that his girlfriend confided in me saying she couldn't see a future with him.

so now they're 3 months pregnant.

I'm not sure Nigella Lawson is the person to listen to about self-regard.

i think i'd make a good mother, but probably will not have children.

BL - I'm not saying they will because I know lots of women older than you who don't feel the bio urge either but fwiw I never really thought twice about kids and certainly didn't feel any real urge to actually have them until a few mo after I turned 29.

I wonder if ethan started this to test the willpower of ILX parents when told not to post to the thread.

So OTM.

i think the hardest part would be not having time to loaf, or have the house to myself

uh oh, enbb!

i am confused by the fear that your kids might turn out to be terrors.

aside from the fact that that would obviously be your fault, i have never met a parent that thought their child was a terror. even when they clearly are.

i'd like to have kids one day, i was always certain that i'd be a father but get less so as time goes on. but i'm only 26, plenty of time to set myself up financially/stability wise yet.

"I wonder if ethan started this to test the willpower of ILX parents when told not to post to the thread."

hahaha so so so true. i don't care though.

The only time I've ever had a 'scare' was when I was living in America. Girlfriend missed period blah blah blah. Lovely girl, pro-choice and all that but adamant that she couldn't bring herself to have an abortion. Outwardly, until we knew for sure she wasn't, I stuck to the 'I'll support and be there for you whatever happens' line, but inwardly I was hugging my student Visa's expiration date like a security blanket.

I don't in truth think I would have shirked my responsibilities and part of me did find the idea of a little dual-nationality Nick appealing, but I was then, even more than now, really really not ready.

enjoy that 2 weeks + few months bell labs! xxxposts

The ILX parents are storming the gates.

is anyone ever ready though?

No, never. Not even I with two kids. hahaha

i'm not afraid of the kids being terrors, just teenagers.

probably not but there are presumably degrees of not readyness. and i was right at the extreme end of it.

Parents' strongest personality traits will be reflected and intensified in the kids. lol-zing people will have children who will laugh at them when they're 80 and fall and break their hip.

Dudes, PP will tell you that up to only a month before i got preggo i was really anti-baby/kid. I would point out pregnant women and laugh "look at that sucker! life ruined!" and when I would see kids Id be all "ewww". I was pretty stupid.

i'm not afraid of the kids being terrors, just teenagers.

-- bell_labs, Wednesday, April 2, 2008 9:07 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

this is still a fear for me and the reason I originally didnt want a girl. i dont know any teenage girl that wasnt an unrelenting bitch to her mother for 4 or 5 years straight.

aside from the fact that that would obviously be your fault

eh? not necessarily. parents can't be blamed for all behavioural problems.

me: no, categorically not. the older i get (32 now), the less mortally terrified of the idea i am ... but the more intellectually opposed to it (for want of a less wanky phrase) i become. emsk sums up a lot of what i think.

it seems to me -- and i know i'll get shouted down a bit here, but tough -- that the majority of parents don't think the whole thing through. it's "have a baby" or "have a kid" -- not "produce a human being who will require tremendous levels of love, care and support for a very long time". as a self-confessed middle-class wank, i see a lot of it as wanky middle-class box-ticking: "right, we've got a house, we've got a car, we've got married ... kids it is, then!"

i've been with mrs F for the best part of eight and a half years now; luckily for me, she's not so keen either (although less opposed than i am). i suppose that, if she was absolutely set on the idea, she could talk me into it. but i'd do my best to talk her out of it first.

i have no paternal feelings whatsoever. i'm immune to "babyness" -- the going-soppy thing ENBB describes above. i really don't like kids at all, to be honest. sure, i'd feel differently about my own; of course i would. but, y'know, that vague knowledge doesn't change my mind one bit.

a 40-something friend of mine has two girls: one bookish and sweet, the other a total nightmare. (explain that one by recourse to lazy "blame the parents" stereotypes if you will.) "you're not wanting kids yet, then?" she asked me last year.

"no, not at all."

"good. worst thing i ever did. i love them to pieces, but i wish i'd never had them."

You get to impart your knowledge and wisdom and experience along the line, and with any luck they'll be good people who will make the world a better place, in the same way that with any luck you try and make the world a better place yourself.

While hardly holding myself up as a model of knowledge etc., I tend to think of this of something I can (that we all can) do with and for others in general -- which obviously your sentiment doesn't contradict or exclude! But it's not an overriding argument.

There was a weird incident a couple of months back where a friend of mine tried to convince me in a conversation that I really should have kids because there was so much I could teach them -- and it wasn't that I could be a role model, it was that I *had* to be. It was an incredibly strange and strained conversation (not least because said other person has never felt the slightest interest in having kids and has said so a couple of times) and I left it feeling very annoyed; thankfully the subject hasn't come up since. Something like that just shouldn't be forced, which is obvious but apparently not universally understood.

Expense, etc., all that's understood -- I live in SoCal, it is expensive just to live here period. More than one couple I've known left here to go elsewhere precisely because they felt that was the only way they could afford to have kids, and that's pretty troubling (though you could argue this locks into the mismanaged civilization problem more than anything else).

If it happens it does. I'm still in no rush, and I'm quite happy as I am.

is she still with the father?

xpost

tracer: not the biological father. but she's been with her partner, their stepfather, for aeons.

Raggett, was this friend aware that you can't do it ... on your own?

> do you want to have kids?

Kind of a heavy meal, but alright occassionally. How do you cook 'em?

i would definitely move out of nyc before even considering having kids. the expense, and pressure and competition with getting into schools, seems more than i could handle. my boss already has a private college guidance counsellor set up for her 7th grader.

it seems to me -- and i know i'll get shouted down a bit here, but tough -- that the majority of parents don't think the whole thing through. it's "have a baby" or "have a kid" -- not "produce a human being who will require tremendous levels of love, care and support for a very long time". as a self-confessed middle-class wank, i see a lot of it as wanky middle-class box-ticking: "right, we've got a house, we've got a car, we've got married ... kids it is, then!"

I won't shout you down. To the contrary, I respect your opinion. I just can't think of having children that dispassionately or intellectually.

a 40-something friend of mine has two girls: one bookish and sweet, the other a total nightmare. (explain that one by recourse to lazy "blame the parents" stereotypes if you will.) "

trying different methods, obviously. go with the first one in future.

Immaculate conceptions are rare as they are to start with, Pinefox.

It seems one of the cruelest tricks of god/fate/evolution (delete as needed according to your beliefs) that it does require two parties.

uh-huh, darraghmac. i forget, you know everything about everybody.

I just can't think of having children that dispassionately or intellectually

see, that's the only way i can think of it!

I hear you. All I can say is that any doubts I had melted away once I saw my daughter.

it seems to me -- and i know i'll get shouted down a bit here, but tough -- that the majority of parents don't think the whole thing through. it's "have a baby" or "have a kid" -- not "produce a human being who will require tremendous levels of love, care and support for a very long time". as a self-confessed middle-class wank, i see a lot of it as wanky middle-class box-ticking: "right, we've got a house, we've got a car, we've got married ... kids it is, then!"

I won't shout either and am inclined to agree with you. I think there are a hell of a lot of people out there having kids for the wrong reasons or without any reasons at all but I'd like to think that I'm not one of them.

yes and sunny otm about teenage girls. i can't believe how mean to my mom i was. not to mention devious. and i was the shy bookish one! my sister was the one dating the 18 yo drug dealer with facial piercings and staying out all night!

I just can't think of having children that dispassionately or intellectually.

I think the ability to do this is completely crucial to raising good kids.

if you are prepared to give up "yourself" then you're ready for kids

Nath OTM. I've always thought that simply 'being yourself' was kind of overrated and unfulfilling a lot of the time. You're still yourself with kids, just a different, busier, you. I'd say that if you think you want kids, just go ahead and do it - you'll never be ready, no-one ever is - and the years wasted prevaricating won't really help you make up your mind.

the majority of parents don't think the whole thing through. it's "have a baby" or "have a kid" -- not "produce a human being who will require tremendous levels of love, care and support for a very long time". as a self-confessed middle-class wank, i see a lot of it as wanky middle-class box-ticking: "right, we've got a house, we've got a car, we've got married ... kids it is, then!"

maybe some people think like that but... why do you care?

yes although im starting to think im going to be about 40 before i have any.

i want a kid or kids
why, because i feel it wld be an awesome kind of love and what is wrong with more love in the world

"produce a human being who will require tremendous levels of love, care and support for a very long time"

It's not all one way. They do love, care for and support you too.

rrrobyn nails it as usual

i think id adopt a kid actually. save your wife 9 months of her life and give home to someone who doesnt have one. nice thing to do i think.

fuck no, not for nothing, never happen

dr C: yes, although that comes much later, i'd wager.

and isn't a given, by any means.

maybe some people think like that but... why do you care?

well, you know, because i) this is a thread about having kids; ii) i share a planet with enough neglected, unloved, unhappy people to care a little about folks' welfare in general, even if -- yes! -- they happen not to be the fruit of my loins?

i'm asking these questions cause i'm probably gonna have children and it is like, this huge thing obv, changes your life, unimaginable before you've done it, etc etc - but sometimes i wonder if we don't go too far in thinking "my whole life will change", imagining that kids will be the center of everything we do (because we see others who do this)

when my dad was growing up, his parents would often send send him and his brother off to places, like some cousin's place in the summer, or whatever - they were expected to really just look after themselves a lot of the time

in france, little kids are often routinely ignored when guests are over, and they know in advance that attempting to become the center of attention will probably not succeed

not saying either of these attitudes is right, just that there are a lot of different ways to go, to my mind, not all of which involve totally changing one's identity to become "the frame" or "the parent" or whatever

one big thing i wonder is about how it would change my relationship w/the lovely emma b - rather than boyfriend and girlfriend, or even husband and wife, we would now be "mom and dad" - and i wonder about that, how those new name badges would mesh with each other - maybe it would be even better!

"Why did you set fire to the drapes/shave off your eyebrows/try to flush the book I was reading?"
"Don't yell at me mom, I'm your child and it's an awesome kind of love and what is wrong with more love in the world! Oh by the way, I stuck a fork in the cat."

...and with that, Will seals his fate of being hitched with one on the way by mid-2009.

xxx-post

xpost to mr X: good sentiments, btw.

see, that's the only way i can think of it!

I admit I'm with Grimly here -- not the ONLY way (as Daniel rightly notes), but even so.

It's surely mindset and what you bring to it -- especially in unplanned situations. Another friend of mine -- single mom, first kid born ten years back when she was just twenty or so -- recently became pregnant again, and sadly the father has already cut and run. Her equanimity and positive feelings about having another kid are quite striking and good to see; at the same time I also know the kind of continual burdens she's had to deal with over the years, financially and otherwise -- and this with a strong support system of friends and others who have always assisted in day care and the like. The one side does not cancel out the other but both coexist.

Combined with the extremely disastrous divorce that has afflicted two close friends of mine -- who have two young kids -- it almost kinda forces a hard-headed look on the subject from me (especially since I long regarded said friends -- for a decade and a half now -- as being role models for marriage and family themselves, not in terms of plastic imperfection but in terms of love and partnership seeing through many big changes in life, and now that's just plain gone). But it's only my viewpoint, of course, and that there are plenty of friends of mine who have young kids and who are in good places all around is handy.

Then again, as the Pinefox rightly notes, it's really all academic in my current situation! I will also say this too -- I think having so many friends my age and older who do not have kids and/or current partners provides a community (if you prefer, a feedback loop) where it's more of a commonality than it might have been in the past, and this among men and women both. There's so much context at play in matters like this, for all that it seems like a strictly personal situation, that one almost doesn't know where to stop or start.

They do love, care for and support you too.

An important point! Certainly I do the same for my folks. As does my sister, but like me she's never shown any interest in kids and pretty much takes the same attitude I do. In contrast our cousins on my dad's side are both fathers and we think they're great, as are their children. Maybe it's just all something in a family sometimes.

MrX's point is expressed a bit flippantly but I could see myself adopting at some point, if I felt I could provide a good home for someone. At this point, I do not think I can.

grimly ok sure, but it's like.. what does that have to do with your own feelings about it? i share a planet with a lot of republicans but it doesn't mean i stop voting

Even though I'm apparently not allowed to answer the question, due to my "bitterness"...

Yes, for a very long time I really wanted to have kids. Not even through any kind of broodiness or gooeyness (I'm a very un-maternal person) but through its being repeatedly reinforced by the senior members of my family (mostly the scientist side) as some kind of imperative genetic "duty" to propegate my (their) genes.

I never found a suitable partner, and now I am too old. Sometimes life happens like that. You have to accept the cards you are dealt.

(I'm a very un-maternal person)

Then it's worked out for the best, hasn't it?

save your wife 9 months of her life

I'm quite looking forward to being pregnant one day.

When my wife was pregnant with our first kid, we were taking a birthing class (btw: it was dumb), and one day they split us into men and woman groups to talk over what we were most looking forward to. The women start talking right away, but us men are all silent. Then one of the guys speaks up and says, "I know what I'm looking forward to: MILKSHAKES!!!" And he gives us a leering grin and raises his eyebrows repeatedly, so that we'd get the drift. LOLs were had by all.

Dude was right, though. So when you ask yourself, do I want to have kids: remember, MILKSHAKES!

I'm not a fan of them, but don't mind serving as churlish uncle or godfather when duty calls. As I get older, though, not having them makes old age less bearable – in a very practical sense, kids help take care of you as you age. I'm certainly more conscious of how much closer to death my parents are.

Tracer you and TLEB would rock as parents - that is my considered opinion.

Euler is your entire life like a Judd Apatow movie?

haha thank you mr blue sky!

yeah, um, i'm not sure that i want kids. my ex was (is) serious about never having kids and i got used to the idea, and i've never really felt the urge on my own. it just seems like such a huge re-focusing of your life, and there are a lot of things i don't feel ready to give up.

it'll probably happen though, because i will probably end up married at some point and most women want kids.

Matt DC: pretty much!

Then it's worked out for the best, hasn't it?

That's what I tell myself.

Except the one time in my life, I was actually pregnant, it kicked in like a hormonal surge. It wasn't a question of wanting to be broody or maternal, I simply *was* and there was no choice in the matter.

It was kind of amazing how much my personality transformed, kind of a wonder of science/nature (delete as per yr beliefs).

It would have been intersting, to say the least, to have become that person permanently. But life had other plans for me.

Having a kid is a pretty awesome excuse to be allowed onto bouncy castles, I've just realised.

grimly ok sure, but it's like.. what does that have to do with your own feelings about it?

ha! er ... yes, ok, good question. i'm probably needlessly defensive about my active reluctance to have kids, i admit. but also: do i really think i've thought it through as much as one should? probably not, to be honest. probably not. that said: it's less of an issue for me because i'm *not* talking about (or: talking about *not*) bringing a new life into the world :)

No.

We have plenty related to us to love, get our fill, and give back.

Also, we are too old and set in our ways (read: selfish).

Also, I don't think I'd make a good mother.

Also, with our careers and disposable income we will have more cash to lavish our nephews and nieces with than their cash-strapped parents.

we were taking a birthing class (btw: it was dumb)

Lolling at the casual "BAH!" sentiments here. Say more!

in a very practical sense, kids help take care of you as you age

Definitely not denying that. I'd be more than happy to go home for an extended stay should either of my folks need the help. At the same time, they've already made arrangements for long-term care at home down the line as needed, and have assured both my sis and I that we need not worry ourselves too much, but of course we'd regularly check on their care by default. I mean, that's just a given.

But is that enough of a reason to have kids in my case, I don't know. In ways, our society has -- at least temporarily -- been able to create a particular system where instead of a completely self-contained family support structure one can -- if one is fortunate enough on a number of fronts, especially financially -- outsource, quite literally in some cases, and my parents' decisions in part reflect that. But that's not to say it won't be a permanent situation, nor would be available for me at that age either. It's a risk run, but so is life (and so is having kids!).

uh-huh, darraghmac. i forget, you know everything about everybody.

-- grimly fiendish, 02 April 2008 14:20 (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

well, was in fact not being 100% serious, but i'll do you a trade- i'll take my tongue out of my cheek if you take your head out of your ass.

yeah that's true and i think you're right there's HUGE social pressure, just by biological default really, that's like "this is what you should be doing now" and it is very easy to feel like wait a minute, i'd like to be in control of what i do and when i do it thankyouverymuch

for myself, the reluctance i've felt in the past has had a lot to do with having time to do things i want to do, but you know, i looked up one day and was like "what actually am i so gung ho about protecting here" and realised that it mainly consisted of typing on the internet and playing playstation -- it was a red herring

that was a xpost to grimly

Sounds like my situation, Ned. Luckily my parents are prepared, psychologically and financially, to care for themselves as long as possible. They recognize the selfishness of their own parents' expectations – I'm old, therefore you MUST care for me.

Obviously my position's different from most everyone on the thread. It's impossible in my state for me to even adopt children even if I wanted one. Anyway, I know plenty of gay men who want kids; I've never been one of them.

Impertinent, perhaps, for a non-parent to express these opinions, but I like a lot what Tracer H says upthread:

sometimes i wonder if we don't go too far in thinking "my whole life will change", imagining that kids will be the center of everything we do (because we see others who do this) / when my dad was growing up, his parents would often send send him and his brother off to places, like some cousin's place in the summer, or whatever - they were expected to really just look after themselves a lot of the time / in france, little kids are often routinely ignored when guests are over, and they know in advance that attempting to become the center of attention will probably not succeed

great counter-hegemonic thinking; I say good for you, Hand

dr C: yes, although that comes much later, i'd wager

No.

x-post Tracer - yes, you've got to be careful to allow yourself some space to be 'yourself/yourselves without kids'. It can be very difficult when they're tiny naturally, but you definitely need to work at it. You're never off-duty, but you definitely need to grab time when you're not parenting.

I definitely tried to not make the kids the centre of attention when friends came round - I totally, totally hate it when people change like *that* as soon as they have children, and all you get when you see them is baby chat. I strenuously tried to avoid that when mine were small, but I don't know how successful I was - I was probably as boring as hell! The other thing is when people suddenly acquire all these new friends who they've met at post-natal classes and the like. Suddenly you go and see your friends with a little kid and these post-natal ghouls are there too! Jeez.

It gets a lot easier as they get more independant - I enjoy being 'me' and doing my stuff much more knowing that I have them and their needs/hopes/desires/love etc as a context.

to be sure, levels of attention needed for kids must vary greatly depending on their age

but I asked my parents if it was true that, as is always said nowadays, children must Take Over Your Life, and they said: No! if that happens, something's gone wrong

possible that they were misremembering I suppose

but I liked their robust view that children should not = Everything

apologies and respect to any parents who think I am mistaken

No, I agree....to be sure, to be sure.

i looked up one day and was like "what actually am i so gung ho about protecting here" and realised that it mainly consisted of typing on the internet and playing playstation -- it was a red herring

Hahah, nice. :-)

Another random thought (this seems to be the day and thread for it but what the hey, my mind's on the subject) -- when I was young, though I had plenty of friends my age and all, people always remarked about I always seemed to want to talk with adults more about anything and everything. Doubtless in part this was because I was obnoxiously full of myself, but there was also a sense of their interests being different from my peers, and being...well, more interesting, period. I was already a news junkie when I was seven or eight, trying to piece together geopolitics and the like -- not really something I could talk in too much detail about with my classmates, though I'm sure I tried (and I'm sure I didn't sound much smarter than anyone else my age). In a way, maybe I just always wanted to get to that adult stage of talking, discussion, thinking, and to concentrate on that, however imperfectly.

Ned, a little on the birthing class thing: it was partly like dumb 8th grade sex ed ("the baby grows in the uterus") and partly like a laidback Lamaze class. Because it was laidback, the lessons didn't stick, and so when push came to shove (literally) my wife was like "bring on the drugs!".

There is a lot about parenthood culture (in the US at least) that seems dumb to me: but men aren't really the audience for lots of it, since they're expected to be kinda uninterested. I gather it doesn't seem as dumb to women.

Although this will come over as irritatingly condescending, I think it's very, very difficult to be able to imagine what it'll be like as a parent and how you'll feel about it until you actually become one. In particular, the amazing bond you feel with your child is just an entirely new experience, with no real parallel in one's pre-parenthood years.

it'll probably happen though, because i will probably end up married at some point and most women want kids.

-- Jordan, Wednesday, April 2, 2008 2:45 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah this is the stereotype but the last few guys i've dated have been really serious about wanting kids whereas i sometimes think i could be happy without them :/

guys, little kids sleep for 11-12 hours at night and around a total of 4 hours in the day. you really dont see them that much.

and it is very easy to feel like wait a minute, i'd like to be in control of what i do and when i do it thankyouverymuch

... which i think our generation (you're roughly my age, tracer, no?) finds a lot easier to do.

certainly, it took me a long, long time to explain to my mum -- many years! -- that no, having children wasn't just another thing we were going to do now we'd moved in together and bought a sofa. and it's interesting that her arguments, unlike many of the more thoughtful ones expressed here (darraghmac being the exception, obviously, but hey) tended to be nothing more than "but you'll really love them! but they're lovely! your dad used to say the same sort of thing, and look at him!" -- ie no real reason to have kids, just a whole lot of vague platitudes because, well, she wanted to be a grandmother.

in the end, i pointed out that, if she'd wanted to maximise her chance of grandkids, she should have had more than one child herself. it seemed to work. irritatingly, i still feel slightly guilty if i think like this.

Although this will come over as irritatingly condescending, I think it's very, very difficult to be able to imagine what it'll be like as a parent and how you'll feel about it until you actually become one. In particular, the amazing bond you feel with your child is just an entirely new experience, with no real parallel in one's pre-parenthood years.

No question! But -- how can I put this...there are no do-overs. You can't just wish it away if it all turns out to be less than ideal. (I say 'if,' not 'when,' to be clear here.)

it's interesting that her arguments, unlike many of the more thoughtful ones expressed here (darraghmac being the exception, obviously, but hey) tended to be nothing more than "but you'll really love them! but they're lovely! your dad used to say the same sort of thing, and look at him!" -- ie no real reason to have kids, just a whole lot of vague platitudes because, well, she wanted to be a grandmother.

In my case, neither of my parents ever exerted any overt pressure on me in any sense about having kids -- my mom has a bit of a classic kid's lit collection at home which she admitted she hoped might have been for grandkids to read through at one point, but otherwise that's about it. She mentioned once that apparently she and my dad had a talk (probably more than one) and concluded that wishing and demands along those lines -- which really aren't their style anyway -- weren't cool, and that my sis and I could decide what we'd like to do, which I'm certainly glad for and which my sis is as well, I gather. I'm sure they'd be quite moved and thrilled if it happened for either of us but otherwise, hey.

my mom will never stop bothering me about kids, of this i am sure.

certainly, it took me a long, long time to explain to my mum -- many years! -- that no, having children wasn't just another thing we were going to do now we'd moved in together and bought a sofa.

My parents were actually surprised when I told them that we planned to have kids one day. They've never put any pressure on me at all although my mom did mention that her friends are now asking when where the "grandbabies" are. ?! I haven't even been married two years people. Get off my back!

i think my mother would be an awesome granny since she is already doddering and weird and quite amusing and good with my young cousins. she'd definitly like them but i don't think there'd ever be any pressure - certainly not on me anyway. she's just gonna have to wait until my sister leaves the convent.

yeh, my mum and dad would be fucking ace grandparents.

but that isn't quite enough to change my mind :/

Is your sister actually in a convent? (That actually might be a good thread -- who here has relatives who are members of religious orders?)

(xpost to Uptoeleven there)

it's interesting that her arguments, unlike many of the more thoughtful ones expressed here (darraghmac being the exception, obviously, but hey

i don't think i gave any argument, 'thoughtful' or otherwise, about why someone would want kids, but hey. you've got your dander up now, who am i to stop you?

best reason to have kids- definitely the idea that you could send a happy, well adjusted person out there to maybe redress the balance a little.

my brother has a daughter who came as a bit of a surprise to him (he had about three months to get used to the idea). she's a year old next week, and even having to put up with her three days a week, i still can't think of anything that would put me off kids myself- in fact having the reponsibility/unconditional love for her has had an amazingly positive effect on him.

No question! But -- how can I put this...there are no do-overs. You can't just wish it away if it all turns out to be less than ideal. (I say 'if,' not 'when,' to be clear here.)

Agreed. I guess I was pointing out that deciding to have children is always going to be a leap in the dark, because it's really impossible to understand what parenthood feels like until it happens. But also, I think before parenthood one tends to stress the negative more than the positive, because the positive is just so hard to quantify prior to the fact. So you focus on all the things you'll lose.

best reason to have kids- definitely the idea that you could send a happy, well adjusted person out there to maybe redress the balance a little.

This seems to be a regular undercurrent, I've noticed it in many contexts (one mentioned in my first post upthread re: my friend's strange pressure to me on the matter, in a slightly different sense). Here's a question for you (or anyone who agrees): do you see this as a kind of obligation, a moral insurance or charity for the world? (Please note I am not being so bloodless as to say this is the *only* reason for it, but you yourself said 'best' reason, darraghmac, so I have to ask...)

Sometimes, I'm told, it happens by accident.

We're animals.

I'm gonna have 'em, but being in a same-sex couple, I feel a little worried about technical issues etc. Also, I worry that having a kid might make queerness into more of an issue that must be addressed for various reasons.

I think before parenthood one tends to stress the negative more than the positive, because the positive is just so hard to quantify prior to the fact. So you focus on all the things you'll lose.

Yeah, that's well said. And as Tracer notes, sometimes you find yourself wondering what you've lost -- but as Alfred also notes and I did mention a bit way back, planning isn't everything, though plenty think quickly on their feet.

I have idly wondered sometimes if there's not a bit of Stockholm syndrome about parenthood -- ie, "Now I'm here, I have to make the best of it" -- but the gulf between experiences being unbridgeable except by a one-way road, all I can do is idly wonder.

only the best from an intellectual point of view ned, i guess is what i meant. most people wouldn't tend to think of having children as something you'd have to justify intellectually though?

xposts

in fact having the reponsibility/unconditional love for her has had an amazingly positive effect on him

actually, this is key, and i guess is directly linked to this:

I think before parenthood one tends to stress the negative more than the positive

... yes, all i can see is the downsides to having children (which i guess i can sum up in one word: worry) but there is obviously every chance that fatherhood could be the greatest thing ever, and do wonders for me as a person/mrs F as a person.

again, though: although i can, dispassionately, accept that there are myriad positives to the whole affair, i can't feel buoyed enough by them -- by the unknown -- to feel any need to try it.

worry and responsibility ... these are the two major stumbling blocks for me.

Here's a question for you (or anyone who agrees): do you see this as a kind of obligation, a moral insurance or charity for the world?

It was part of our thinking, yes.

most people wouldn't tend to think of having children as something you'd have to justify intellectually though?

You got me! Maybe more do than we know. (I have a feeling some grad student somewhere has done a paper on the topic which has turned into an unread thesis in a university archive.)

xpost -- well, there you are. And I'd be interested to hear more from Rock Hardy about that, though I think he's talked about it on other threads too!

No. Don't like kids, have zero desire for that kind of responsibility.

And the world is going to be a fucking nightmare in any potential child's lifetime.

LOL Ned. Much as it would probably be quite interesting if my sister was actually in a convent.. she is not. Just devoid of anything relationship-related for about six years. I'm pretty sure she really wants kids, and could probably manage them better than anyone I know, but it's not gonna happen til she finds someone she's prepared to tolerate her.

Everyone says it I know (of themeselves) but I think I'd be a decent uncle, not to mention a decent easyisy-going antidote to my sister's militancy. Would also mean she would stop bossing me about. Actually I doubt it would.

I think it's funny that people spend a lot of time rationalizing for/against having children using roundabout moral arguments. We could have the same arguments about all of our own rights to keep on living. Wouldn't it be more moral for us all to just off ourselves?

I think a huge question is how much you love doing family stuff, like having big holiday meals together, or playing games together, or going on trips together. If you recoil at that, that probably having kids is going to seem like a bad decision (whether it really is bad, you'll only know if you go through with it). Whereas if you love that stuff, you can have it basically everyday.

one thing that's really funny to me about phj3ar of having kids -- i.e. can i handle the responsibility? can i deal with this radical life change? -- is that pretty much everyone since the beginning of time has had them

it reminds me a little of how sex seems like this exotic, crazy thing when actually birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it

I (and partner) can't bloody wait and would be actively trying to get knocked up right now if we were somewhat more settled financially. Soon soon soon.

xxxp just got offed?

I think it's funny that people spend a lot of time rationalizing for/against having children using roundabout moral arguments. We could have the same arguments about all of our own rights to keep on living. Wouldn't it be more moral for us all to just off ourselves?

Some of us wrestle with this almost every day of our lives.

surely that's taking middle class guilt a little too far??

Tracer H upthread: that's a *historical* change - it's particular to our generation

Question #1 was: do we really want to inflict this fucked up world on a child who we would presumably love and wish the best for? Eventually, the answer was yes, but probably just once, and not without serious trepidation. (Milo 100% OTM.)

Question #2 was: are we so sure of our ability to raise a child that would leave the world better than he/she entered it? Yeah, we're pretty full of ourselves.

Question #3: will this get our parents off our backs? Absolutely.

I think it's funny that people spend a lot of time rationalizing for/against having children using roundabout moral arguments. We could have the same arguments about all of our own rights to keep on living. Wouldn't it be more moral for us all to just off ourselves?

-- Hurting 2, Wednesday, April 2, 2008 10:31 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

And I've argued publicly for the right do do exactly this for years, but that's for another thread.

our parents didn't worry much about this 'fear', and our grandparents less so, and people in the C19, C16, C10, even less and less. It's new cos we are a generation with more stuff and longer lives than any generation has ever had before

I've been married 4 years now (first marriage -- I'm 40), and definitely no kids for me. My wife is even more adamant about it. We both find children annoying and have little patience for the pre-reasoning little machines that they are.

When I was 20, I thought I'd change my mind about the matter when I was 30. When I was 30, I realized that my mind wasn't going to change.

I totally, totally hate it when people change like *that* as soon as they have children, and all you get when you see them is baby chat.

yeah. luckily my oldest friend who has a 2-year-old has shown me that it's entirely possible to avoid this and continue being an awesome, interesting person, with interests beyond omg look at my kid isnt he so cute [insert a dozen boring stories about kid] etc.

Great stuff, Rock -- I like both the questions and the answers! (Yeouch on that third one, though.)

I think a huge question is how much you love doing family stuff, like having big holiday meals together, or playing games together, or going on trips together.

Well said! I love family stuff with my family but it only happens every so often -- heck, the trip to Hawaii last October was the first time all four of us had gone on a trip together since 1994. But we see each other at least a couple of times each year -- my sis sees them more as they're only a couple of hours drive away, whereas I'm down here in SoCal.

One thing I have noticed, selfishly -- every time I'm on a trip somewhere in an airport, at a hotel, whatever I see a slew of families trying to keep kids in line, baby stuff organized, etc., and tempers fray more often than not. Now there's no reason why they wouldn't in artificial situations like that so I'm hardly taking that as a norm, but as someone who likes to travel a lot and who enjoys the fact it's often just me grabbing some stuff for light luggage and then I'm off, I admit to being happy it *is* just me at those times.

Existential angst / meaning gap / middle class guilt - where to draw the line?

On a basic, fundamental level, we are just carbon bags for getting our genes into the next generation. All this talk of self fulfillment etc. is really a load of rot at the bottom of it, on a basic scientific level. If you're not going to carry out your genetic obligation, why should one be entitled to carry on using up the precious resources of this earth?

still answering Hand:

not sure why the longer lives are relevant

main issue, I think: egotistical sense of "life as project" is common to middle-class people in the West in a way that it wasn't a few generations ago; baby could derail project, or alternatively could be key part of project.

I think adults talking in babytalk should be illegal.

but I asked my parents if it was true that, as is always said nowadays, children must Take Over Your Life, and they said: No! if that happens, something's gone wrong

Did your folks have their folks to call upon for support? Because, when you have two very small children and the grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc are all between 300 and 3000 miles away, and you can't afford professional childcare, it really is difficult to find the time to do much of anything, together as a couple, that doesn't involve them. Last Friday was our first night out together since January 2005.

I'm sure it gets easier in that regard as they get older but pre-schoolers, toddlers and babies simply don't take care of themselves for any substantial length of time - so "selfish" activities like reading a book, watching a movie, much less something that actually needs to be done, like unblocking a drain, filling in a tax return, etc, fall by the wayside. So they do "take over" in that sense, but it's a marvellous thing, actually. Doing a jigsaw puzzle with your daughter is far more rewarding than...reading ILX, for example.

I dunno, what can I say?

or maybe "all my life projects are failures so chances of being a successful parent are slim"...

xp to pf

xpost. MJones is OTM.

The thing is, we may be carbon bags but we are carbon bags with self-awareness, reasoning abililty and birth control options.

not now but when im really old like 30

-- and what, Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:39 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Link

A kid is not a 'life project', it's *their* life project to which you have input.

haha that ethan remark...

is it more rewarding than, say, writing music or playing shows? maybe it is, or it feels that way, but i'm not sure i like the implications of that.

xp

I like both the questions and the answers! (Yeouch on that third one, though.)

That was actually just comic relief. None of the parents and aunts/uncles pressured us, really.

Oh good!

Re age: I'm 37 but I still feel like 19 (might be part of the problem! -- then again my dad recently said he still feels around that age as well and he's in his sixties, so I think that's just life).

main issue, I think: egotistical sense of "life as project" is common to middle-class people in the West in a way that it wasn't a few generations ago; baby could derail project, or alternatively could be key part of project.

Huge issue, this. Past two centuries of philosophy to thread!

Doing a jigsaw puzzle with your daughter is far more rewarding than...reading ILX, for example.

Nice. (And good lord, speaking of spending too much time on here I gotta get some work done -- more later, maybe!)

one thing i don't quite get: taking thousands of photos of your baby (and posting them on the internets) tho i guess you may constantly feel you're chasing 'the perfect depiction of perfection' or something

-- blueski, Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:05 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link

my child will not touch the internet until (s)he is 18

at the earliest

One thing I have noticed, selfishly -- every time I'm on a trip somewhere in an airport, at a hotel, whatever I see a slew of families trying to keep kids in line, baby stuff organized, etc., and tempers fray more often than no

Yeah, with my kids we've traveled to Europe and Asia for decently long stretches, and it's been great: differently awesome than when I traveled alone, but still awesome.

One of several reasons why I went from being very against the idea of having a baby to being quite pro was missing family life (as described by Euler). I don't think I want a 'replacement family' as such ... but but I would like to have another person living with me and my feller. That might sound like Lonely Person Syndrome or something, but I honestly don't think it is (I'm not lonely). What is a bit icky is that it seems to make my decision partly a bit of a (eek)..."lifestyle choice".

I think adults talking in babytalk should be illegal.

to their babies?

Last Friday was our first night out together since January 2005.

i did wonder! and then i kinda wished A and T could be there too ha ha

Yes!

pinefox, that sounds right, about people seeing their lives as a "project". regardless of how well planned or executed that project is. (there's also that fact that it's only the last two generations that have had access to effective birth control.)

it's interesting to contrast what seems like a fairly widespread norte americano and western european male reluctance to have kids with cultures like, say, the dominican republic, where if you're a man in his 30s with no kids you're some kind of impotent freak.

michael i am worried about that aspect of long-distance grandparents when and if it happens: i am in the same boat.

Teach them English, not comforting gibberish! (xpost)

No, no, a thousand times no. The world is shit, they'd probably be shit, I *am* shit.

I hate his majesty the baby
His bowels and bladder uncontrolled
Sitting astride a throne of nappies
As though his shit were made of gold
As though a cherub on a fountain
He suckles breasts as big as mountains
Then pisses freely on the women
Who so lovingly surround him

(Also, I watched a minute of the initial video and it was really boring. Did anything interesting happen at the end? Like, um, dinosaurs?)

No, it stayed boring.

A: yep, not in any hurry. someday though.

nah prob not

maybe adopt tho

http://www.datadrivenmaps.com/myonlinemapscom/2007/06/going_to_the_ch.html

One thing I have noticed, selfishly -- every time I'm on a trip somewhere in an airport, at a hotel, whatever I see a slew of families trying to keep kids in line, baby stuff organized, etc., and tempers fray more often than no

I think this kinda thing is pretty much what I most appreciate of singleness as well. But just as other aspects of being in a great relationship outweigh the negs so, I imagine, would the positives of having children. (Not that you're by any means saying they wouldn't) I'm sure those people find those bits hard work but they wouldn't swap them for not making a jigsaw or bouncy castling I assume. I wanna make a a jogsaw and go on a bouncy castle anyway.

a jogsaw is a very effective way to lose weight

Especially on a bouncy castle.

I'm wondering if a lot of childless affluent people don't wind up consuming just as much in the end anyway trying to fill up their lives with experiences and stuff. I realize I'm straw-personning a bit, and obviously there are lots of affluent families who consume feverishly trying to fill their kids' lives with stuff and experiences.

is it more rewarding than, say, writing music or playing shows? maybe it is, or it feels that way, but i'm not sure i like the implications of that

This is a fair point. I think my wife's creative life has been curtailed and compressed in ways she still hasn't come to terms with. Whereas, with me, it's not enough time dicking around in Lightroom, not going to the pub or missing various TV progs. Big deal.

My abiding memory of Everton's UEFA Cup campaign this season is the way it's interwoven with bathing the kids and trying to get them to bed in time to see any of the football. Ava falling asleep across me as the Fiorentina game went into extra time, reading Hairy McClary (From Donaldson's Dairy) for the umpteenth time while straining to hear the commentary from an adjoining room on the Alkmaar game, giving up entirely on the Zenit match as I doled out the Tixylix. A richer set of memories than if I'd just sat there with a beer, blissfully uninterrupted in my viewing.

To make an enormous generalization compounded mostly of my own very American childhood/family experience and a few European friends' stories: I think the "child becomes center of universe" thing is maybe more US than European? On the whole.

My parents certainly gave up everything: money, their time, their personal satisfactions and pleasures, etc, for the ideal of "good of the family" and uh while it did result in a totally Normal Rockwell family image, it was also a kinda weird and probably unnecessary choice. I wonder a lot how much happier and/or more fulfilled they might be if they'd kept their adult lives running instead and been less...solicitous of us? On the other hand who can say how we'd have turned out without all the individual nurturing. Etc.

I was going to say, earlier: I daresay Steady Mike is reading all this with a grim shake of the head at all the people who don't know what they're on about.

Mike, I think my folks made some distinctions between different ages, and also said that having two children rather than one ultimately helped, as the two could entertain each other. I remember saying to you when you announced Baby 2 'well, the first baby can look after the 2nd one, can't she?' - perhaps one day that will be truer?

There is, again, a generational difference: it's likely that you give far more time to your children than my father gave to me, and this pattern is common. (This point is very gendered of course.)

Also I have a nagging feeling that a lot of the stress about public misbehavior and making a scene and looking frazzled and difficult traveling and the sorts of things that people bring up to show how onerous parenthood is basically rooted in having a stake in whether your family meets some kind of ideal or expectation at any given moment...? Not that tantrums in the store are no problem and you wouldn't have your patience tried about every 7 minutes!! Dear lord. But...if YOU are chill about such things, I wonder if a lot of the expectation of stress, and therefore the stress, is relieved.

another point: michael J, in the posts where he writes about his children, gives the impression of enjoying their company and being actively happy being an active parent.

whereas the parents i see the most -- my mate and his wife -- do a very good job of giving the impression that their children are nothing but a pain in the arse. granted, context is important here, but: i'm also aware that my own opinions have probably been badly clouded by the people i happen to have seen at first hand. if said mate and his wife didn't manage to make it look like an endless fucking chore, i'd have more positive images of parenthood to call upon.

still don't think it'd change my mind, though :)

I remember saying to you when you announced Baby 2 'well, the first baby can look after the 2nd one, can't she?' - perhaps one day that will be truer?

trying to picture my 1yearolder brother 'looking after' me when we were wee bairns...no, not getting it...but of course, so often, it can be different for girls

Tantrums in the store are irritating for other people in the store.

for "looking after" you can substitute "endlessly needling" and the point still stands

Actually, number of children is a significant issue in all this: I like it when people (who decide to have a child) have more than one, and do think it must be a good thing in the long run.

Yeah, pinefox, it's all down to individual annoyance levels, obv. But I mind fussy kids a LOT less than I mind parents obv ignoring their bored children (like on the subways, which is when I hear the most crying), or smacking them around or yelling at 'em or whatever. Which, to be honest, is what I mostly see.

any excuse to post this btw

http://freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/stork-boy.gif

you mostly see that cause otherwise you wouldn't notice!

xpost

Maybe! Although my mom said I didn't stop having tantrums until I learned that she would calmly and reasonably tell me about the consequences and then when I didn't shut up, walk away and/or put me into the seat and strap me in and completely ignore the hysterics. I imagine I'd notice hysterical children if the parents were taking that tack? But whatevs, not important.

Also I think I've been around a lot more really young parents (mostly mothers) than older ones with good coping skills.

what disturbs me is how early our behaviours seem to be set. my mum told me again on saturday how my brother had quite a traumatic birth and was quite demanding in his early years, whereas i was a lot quieter even as a baby (and i think i wasn't caesarian unlike him but not totally sure). it just seems like we had traits from the get go that can never be shook off.

Actually I've just been reading a book by a woman who was a nurse and then a midwife for like 20 years and she thinks the same! Babies who were calm and alert and curious, babies who were so lethargic and unflappable you had to wake them up to be fed, and babies who were just stressed by every little thing like lights and noises and being touched.

yeah, my mom did not coddle my hysterics either, but while that tack might have decreased their duration and frequency as time passed and i got older, i do remember having a tantrum even at age 18. that might have been my last one. her other strategy was to laugh at me, which worked, as tantrums really are ridiculous and laughable, but boy did it piss me off until the moment i started laughing too.
xpost

There's been some recent-ish research/theories about the last category, the really high-stress infants. I remember reading about it but I forget what the researchers were calling that condition. Something catchy, probably.

Someone will probably spent 15 years and millions of $ on a study that will tell us that tantrums equate with later events like losing yr temper and breaking things. :D

it just seems like we had traits from the get go that can never be shook off.

i can give you a fascinating psychological treatise on biological trait formation, if you'd like.

might want to wait a few years so i properly know what i'm talking about, mind.

(laurel: check out mary ainsworth and the "strange situation" test.)

and on competing styles of baby-management, check out

The Group

I did not want to have kids and was pretty adamant about this for many years. I thought I'd be a terrible father and would only pass on very awful genetic traits to any offspring I'd have. I also was rather convinced I'd die before I was 35 in some manner.

Obviously I changed my mind about this and am a completely happy father. Partly it was seeing other friends of mine have kids and see the happiness it brought them.

The things that people worry about (not having time to yourself, not having any money) are legitimate worries and these things do come true. I think sometimes that people who have kids when they're younger do better than those who wait until they're in their mid 30s...by then you've gotten very used to living a selfish life and it can be hard to adjust to getting up at 5:30am every day and giving up going out every night. I radically ratcheted down my going out in the years before having a child so that wasn't as big a problem, but still, getting to see a movie in a theater is a luxary dependent on the availability of babysitters now.

There are other worries that, once you are pregnant or abuot to have a child, that are more serious though, but not ones that I ever even considered before we decided to have a kid. Like: disabilities, illness, stillbirth, etc. Seriously until we were already pregnant I didn't give this a second thought and then once the kid was coming I was terrified we'd give birth to a monster with one giant eye covered in hair.

And then you did but it was all right.

they call him "scratchy"

I would almost like to have a reason to cut back on my excesses, but I guess wanting to have children in order to change yr priorities is as bad a reason as any. Ha. Anyway as long as it's just me I might as well go out five nights a week or whatever...but it's not like it's my first choice.

Michael Jones, I loved your post about your abiding memory of Everton's UEFA Cup campaign. So much so I showed it to my husband, who said you had the right attitude to parenting football.

I've been married for six years to my husband and we're both 30. We thought about having kids, but then we decided to have fun instead.

Has anyone ever read truemomconfessions.com? It's total birth control!

xpost- right attitude to parenting, maybe, completely wrong attitude to football.

I do sometimes read truemomconfessions.com. It just confirms my thoughts that there are a lot of idiots/assholes out there and makes me remember to appreciate sleeping in while I still have the option.

My favorite truemomconfession was "I am so jealous of people who don't have kids that I try to talk them into having kids, so they can be as miserable as me." Over 200 people clicked "me too"!

There's also one called truebrideconfessions which is kind of worse. There was one on there where some girl confessed to having sex with her maid of honor at her bachelorette party and over 30 people clicked "me too!" WHAT?! What kind of bach parties are these people having?

i do more and more as time goes on

Hint: They're lying. On the internet. Hard to believe, I know.

I think people are a. stupid enough to click on any poll or b. do it for the lulz.

Yeah, I know. I guess I don't really get why that would be funny? People are weird.

I do think that a lot of people are unhappy as parents, but it's not acceptable to admit it.

Dave and Kevin stand side-by-side in front of a suburban house, with a young boy next to Kevin. We see the scene through a television camera, as a press conference takes place.

Dave: We've called this press conference today to announce publicly what is already a growing rumor in the community - that we are disappointed both in our child and in the experience of parenting. Now, we feel a certain sense of responsibility in that when our baby was born, we were often heard to encourage other couples to have children, describing it as, and I quote, "the most incredible experience in the world." We would now like to retract that statement, and for all those who have only recently been stirred to conceive, we offer a word of advice - don't.

Scott: Are you gonna get rid of the child?

Dave: No, no, of course not. We're just gonna go one with our lives, but openly and honestly. Thank you.

Dave, Kevin, and the boy turn and go into the house. As they do, the reporters yell questions and take pictures, and Dave and Kevin mutter replies back.

Scott: Tommy! A little smile there, Tommy?

Dave: C'mon, Tommy.

Kevin: No more photos, please.

Scott: Tommy! Can you smile still, Tommy? Do they treat you well?

Dave: Treating him very well.

Scott: Just let me just see the kid, just one little picture.

Kevin: You've had enough.

Dave, Kevin, and the boy go into the house, closing the storm door behind them. Scott follows them up the steps and squats, peering through the door into the house.

Scott: Hey c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, hey Tommy? Whoa, what's that, that's just a black and white TV in there! Hey Tommy!

no, never, christ no, what the fuck

I'm 34 and 'er indoors is 37; we've been together 10 years in August. We went through years of OMG OH NOES QUICK WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME before locking this in just a few months ago: we love kids, but not enough to have our own. A completely mutual decision.

There's too much we want to do. My career is on a mad rollercoaster trajectory right now, and in 3-4 years I'd really like to be working on another continent. We also want to do a lot of non-work travelling, and I have other goals that I could not achieve if we started sprog farming.

For me the tipping point was knowing of a guy who was 22, had congenital brain damage and did nothing but scream. For 22 years. His mother spent that whole 22 years feeding him and towing him around in a big white van. That was 10 years ago; if he's still alive, she's probably still towing him around and he's probably still screaming.

Besides, the way things are in this country, if we had kids we could only ever afford a house in some bogan outer-suburb called Spring Lake Heights.

Also that youtube video is fucking horrifying.

Also, I get REALLY shitty with people who just assume we're having kids, and go all strange when I say we're not having any. It happened again on Monday.

i cant believe a dude who spends like 58936493 hours a week on some weirdo ab-tightening muscleman bullshit is hating on having kids

oh noes think of all the time raising a child would take away from posting pecs.jpg on ilx

"you're not wanting kids yet, then?" she asked me last year.

"no, not at all."

"good. worst thing i ever did. i love them to pieces, but i wish i'd never had them."

-- grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 April 2008 00:13 (7 hours ago) Bookmark

This happens more and more often.

The other one is this:

"Sorry! We can't come out for dinner/drinks because little Tom's got to be in bed by 6.30 because he has creche in the morning, and we can't do any earlier because we have to pick up Sally from kinder and take her to the doctor because she has another fever, and we can't do tomorrow night because we have to buy hypoallergenic nappies for little Katie, and we can't do any time within the next 12 years because of the kids, but honestly we're sooo glad we had them"

I don't doubt that this is true, but fuck, we're so happy now that it'd be silly to change it all.

xp I don't know how to respond to that.

dnftt?

^

hit them w/banhammer

Eventually I want to have two kids - a girl and a boy. I already have the names picked out.

I want like 5 or more, but I do realize that finding my dreamgirl who is down with this plan might be a bit tricky...

Haha, we had names picked out too.

My mother wanted us to have SIX. SIX. FUCKING SIX. This is what happens when you're an only child and your mother is insane.

The years from birth to pre-school (or daycare) seem the hardest for the mother, if the mother is the one at home with the kids. I'm not sure what it's like for the mother who goes back to work and outsources the childcare. I deal with a lot of mothers who are desperate for activities for their kids (and themselves?) in this 0-4 year old zone.

Is the phrase "outsources the childcare" meant to provoke a reaction? Because it's not entirely accurate (or entirely inaccurate).

No, I think I was walking into a minefield there, with stay-at-home moms versus working moms, not to mention stay-at-home dads, and other various permutations of childcare. I wasn't trying to make any value judgments on who does or doesn't do the childcare, though, what I did want to emphasize is how difficult, stressful, and alienating those early childhood years appear to be for the moms (and it's mostly moms, in my case) who bring their kids into my POB.

wiill have kids so there will be little burt jr and burtina running around those mo p haired little tots

poor mop haired little tots, maybe you should try to break the having the floor wiped with you chain.

I don't have time to read the second half of this thread tonight, but Grimly was way OTM upthread. I'm strongly against having kids, but too tired right now to go into a lengthy explanation about it.

So much so I showed it to my husband, who said you had the right attitude to parenting

Thanks! Without getting too maudlin about it, I have this vague sentimental notion that maybe my dad (who died last year) came stumbling in from the British Legion one Wednesday night in 1970 and said, "Wake him up - we've won the league." Or, at least, this is what happens in the Ken Loach/Terence Davies version of my life. So I'm sharing the experience with Ava in the hope that she'll absorb something and also have a life of abject bitterness and misery. Just kidding, Pam.

right attitude to parenting, maybe, completely wrong attitude to football.

Quite so. I should've bundled 'em up in the back of the (fictional) Transit and just driven to Nuremburg, Royal Blue scarves trailing from the windows on the Autobahn. Ava already loves Kraftwerk, so we're halfway there.

that's the spirit. who knows, when moyes comes to spurs you may never have it so good again....

Dear Me!

OK, in summary.

My kids are great.

Yours may not be.

Moyes is not coming to Tottenham. Everton, one of the great clubs of Europe, are welcome to him.

Mike, surely in the Ken Loach version you don't win the league, but are destroyed by a downward spiral of debt and beaten to a tattered pulp by burly loan sharks from Penge?

In the KL version, the winning of the league is just a False Dawn - Catterick signs Bernie Wright on the same day the baliffs carry the stereogram out. In the TD version, the winning of the league is accompanied by a five-minute tableau of the match programme slowing curling its pages from the heat of the gas fire and the sound of a woman weeping three doors down.

I take it she's a Liverpool fan.

I've never seen a minute's worth of Terence Davies - unlike you, evidently: so much for fatherhood not leaving any time to watch long, slow, elegaic films, let alone more exciting things like unblocking drains.

This has given me the idea for something which really ought to have its own website: The Life of Michael Jones as directed by umpteen different directors - new synopsis to be posted online each day.

so much for fatherhood not leaving any time to watch long, slow, elegaic films

I've only see 15min of Distant Voices since Koogy bought me the DVD!

Lest I give a too-rosy picture of parenthood, all the negative stuff is there too, I just don't like to post about it too much. It's terrifically hard work and frequently frustrating and the kids can often be absolutely bloody terrors at times. And the unconditional love thing - well, that's sort of frightening too. To have something that precious in your life introduces all sorts of fears and anxieties into your daily existence that were previously very abstract and distant. I totally understand why it's just not for some people and would never challenge another person's position (regardless of how it's been formed) on this.

Apparently, after that woman stops crying 15 minutes in, a load of cartoon characters turn up, and they do stunts and sing comedy songs, written by The Two Alans (Bleasdale / Harper), for the last two and a half hours of the film.

That's what Stevie told me, anyway. And he's read a book about it.

I know the parents of a one-year-old and in the last year they have watched:

- every season of the wire
- every season of homicide, life on the street (!!)
- every season of lost

when i was like "dang, how'd you do that??" they were like "well, it's not like we're going out"

i don't feel like reading all of this right now but here's my take:

-do i want kids? short answer, no.
-have i ever secretly wanted kids because i thought i could "raise them right" (with good values, altruism, manners, worldliness, curiosity, etc)? hell yeah.
-do i like kids? they're often really cute. i love seeing smart, wide-eyed kids who are determined to know about everything. when i dislike kids it usually seems that their parents aren't very likable either. i get so disheartened seeing growing children acting like the same id-driven grunting slobs their parents are.
-i feel like i have to get myself right first; sure i have "love" to give but i also have quirks i need to iron out and at the moment i don't feel complete enough as a human to play god with someone else
-the money thing
-don't wanna make the next generation fix/deal with the mistakes made by my generation and my parents' and their parents'

sub-question:

how many of you are only-children and how has this affected your views on parenting?

i was raised as a more-or-less only child (half-brother didn't live at home most of the time) and i think if i turned out well at all as an adult some credit is due to all the attention i was able to get from my parents. i never envied people from big families -- those families all seem so noisy and busy and there's never enough quality time for any one kid.

i am. spent a lot of time on my own, though: both parents worked. that said: they were very demonstrative with their love and affection.

i genuinely don't think my own childhood -- which was really very happy -- has anything to do with my desire not to have kids. what i do remember, though, is not really liking other kids even when i was a kid -- i couldn't wait to grow up.

Grimly's last point there kinda OTM for me, as I muttered above!

Get Bent notes something that's been bobbing up and down throughout this thread (Rock H. and others have touched on it), namely thinking about this less in terms of child-raising and more in terms the adult you are as well as the adult they eventually turn out to be.

i was raised as a more-or-less only child (half-brother didn't live at home most of the time) and i think if i turned out well at all as an adult some credit is due to all the attention i was able to get from my parents. i never envied people from big families -- those families all seem so noisy and busy and there's never enough quality time for any one kid.

I agree with this 100%.

That said, as mentioned upthread the older I get the more I wish I had at least one sibling. My parents are aging and it's very difficult esp since I have no one to really share the experience with. I know that there are a lot of people out there with siblings they don't even talk to and that having them doesn't guarantee friends or a support network but I really envy friends of mine who seem to have that.

As I kid though? I couldn't have cared any less. Apparently, I asked my mom once if I was going to have a brother or sister. She said no and I never brought it up again.

the thing about it that i keep coming back to is that as long as no one's an alcoholic, big family gatherings are almost always pretty awesome. for me, even though they're rare, they're a crucial counterweight to everything else going on in my life. it would be nice to have that when i'm older.

Do you have sisters or brothers?

the thing about it that i keep coming back to is that as long as no one's an alcoholic, big family gatherings are almost always pretty awesome. for me

any extended family gathering i go to has at least four, probably six or seven alcoholics. they're all usually pretty great anyway.

as someone that came from a family of four (all boys) i wouldn't envy anyone that was an only child. i don't think quality time necessarily refers to time spent only on one kid.

i don't feel like reading all of this right now but here's my take:

-do i want kids? short answer, no.
-have i ever secretly wanted kids because i thought i could "raise them right" (with good values, altruism, manners, worldliness, curiosity, etc)? hell yeah.
-do i like kids? they're often really cute. i love seeing smart, wide-eyed kids who are determined to know about everything. when i dislike kids it usually seems that their parents aren't very likable either. i get so disheartened seeing growing children acting like the same id-driven grunting slobs their parents are.
-i feel like i have to get myself right first; sure i have "love" to give but i also have quirks i need to iron out and at the moment i don't feel complete enough as a human to play god with someone else
-the money thing
-don't wanna make the next generation fix/deal with the mistakes made by my generation and my parents' and their parents'

-- get bent, Thursday, 3 April 2008 12:41 (51 minutes ago) Link

everything otm.
i'm also terrified of the pain of childbirth/discomfort of pregnancy. which probably means i am too selfish or too much of a pussy to have kids anyways.

i think one of the big secrets here is that no one is ever "complete enough as a human", and you will never iron out your quirks (why would you want to?) - you are who you are. so many red herrings!

Tracer so OTM.

If my parents had waited until they were "complete enough human beings" with their "kinks ironed out" then I would never have been born.

OK, whether my being born in the first place was a good thing is debatable, and I'm sure several people here would say that it was not. But, still.

I dreamed I had a baby last night. She was so sweet but I was flakey about feeding her and kept forgetting. Yikes.

I'm looking forward to pregnancy and labor & delivery like crazy! Yes, I am probably crazy.

Warning: I might be one of those annoyingly hearty people who's like, "OH COME ON, YOU CAN LIFT THAT. PUTCHER BACK INTO IT, LASSIE."

laurel, maybe you should be my lamaze coach. i might punch you though.

-i feel like i have to get myself right first; sure i have "love" to give but i also have quirks i need to iron out and at the moment i don't feel complete enough as a human to play god with someone else

Response from Tracer otm, quirks are what make us.

(great episode of Frasier which is based around 'the first time you realised your parents weren't perfect' - Frasier's was when he found out his dad couldn't do maths in his head lol)

show me someone who was 'fully' ready when they had their children and I'll show you someone who reached out and touched the moon.

When the nurses brought in Beeps at the hospital, she was napping. When she woke up, she started crying. Sunny tried to rock her. I carried her around. We checked to see if her diaper was wet or dirty. After about thirty minutes of sheer noise, we were freaking out a bit and called a nurse in.

The nurse checked the log and said, "Oh, she hasn't had anything to eat in four hours. Try feeding her."

Oh.

(We haven't forgotten to feed her too many times since then.)

I've been reading about a Lamaze coach! I am so big on prepared childbirth, it sounds v....primal.

I'll totally grant Ste and Tracer's points and yet one of the things that often crosses my mind as I get older is thinking about how I'm now well above the age my parents were when I was born, which both impresses me with what they did when they did and simultaneously makes me think that whatever that conditional stage is to be thinking about it, I've sure never approached it.

As this thread has readily shown, there's no one set path for anyone in all this, and people have talked about their changes and decisions over the years.

not really liking other kids even when i was a kid

So OTM. I, however, was not an only child.

I can't tell you how sick I have become of people going 'oh, you'll change your mind at some point, your biological clock will start ticking' etc etc. How about no?

Now that ours is grown up, I've reverted back to my old attitude that kids are horrible screeching little germ dispensers that need to be kept away from me. Actually, babies are fine -- it's toddlers and preschoolers that are horrible. But I usually want to lock the parents up for making the kids that way, not the kids themselves.

You get told over and over again how much your life will change. Well, yeah, they're right. Your life does change. You know what else makes your life change? Going to a new school, moving to a new city, establishing a relationship with someone, breaking up with someone, getting a new job, getting fired from your old job, getting sick, winning a marathon, adopting a pet, having a grandparent die.

If you're able to adapt to any of these, you can probably deal with a baby if you choose to do so. Not to be flippant, but crack whores and meth heads have babies all the time.

Hey, I love you guys (well, some of you) but the thing about not turning out okay if you hadn't gotten all yr parents' attention by being an only child? It's BS. Kids mostly turn out just fine even when their parents aren't too fussed at all, much less when parents are trying their best day in, day out -- kids are pretty resilient, actually. I know we all like to think that we CHEATED FATE by getting therapy or getting over something our parents did or didn't do to us, but if humanity had a natural predator I'm pretty sure we'd all have moved on by now.

Now, I would be willing to believe that a rawther high percentage of ILXors seeked out and probably got extra attention, old souls and misfits all -- we're sort of a special needs group of our own. And maybe there was some benefit. But there's a whole other set of benefits to the communal living and socialization of larger families, too.

OTM. (xpost)

And maybe there was some benefit.

Actually that's not right, I'm SURE there was a distinct benefit. But it's a trade-off, in any case.

xp to self

Great post, PP, but for obvious reasons I really think the most apt comparison you list is about adopting a pet. It's a far different kind of commitment and care but even so (of course, not all pet people are good people people -- and vice versa).

A lot of people have mentioned fear of childbirth/the pain of labor.

Can I just throw it out there that I have a fear of having a child with autism?

I don't want to sound unkind, but I have many friends who have had this happen. It's hard.

Ned, there's a certain level of tamakoutchi involved with raising kids when they're infants. But you can't imagine how proud I am, realizing that Beeps is becoming smarter than the animals. All five of them will still shit on the floor if you let 'em, though.

On siblings: I've got duel families, a maternal and a paternal side.

My mom has four kids, with me being the oldest. I hardly ever see them even though they live only an hour away and make frequent visits to my town. And they're much different than I am, when it comes to money, culture or baby-raisin'. I'm pretty thankful sometimes that there's three other siblings to "take the heat" off of us and divert attention.

My dad has only two kids, me and my sister, and we're much closer. I don't know if the number of siblings is a factor in any of this, but it seems relevant.

I wouldn't have any more.

Five in a family suddenly nothing fits (cars, 'family tickets', etc)

Ned, there's a certain level of tamakoutchi involved with raising kids when they're infants

Heheh. Nicely phrased. :-)

There's actually one great bit way upthread worth discussing, posted by deej:

my child will not touch the internet until (s)he is 18

at the earliest

Totally understood, but it also reminds me of the handy mental exercise of reminding yourself what people's expected baselines are, at least in an affluent society. Friends with kids and I have talked about how it is that our expectations were, say, color TV (me to folks: "wait, ALL you had is black and white TV?"). Whereas a kid born in 1992 now has a much different level in terms of technology, and a kid born *now* -- well, most of us have seen exactly how much has changed over fifteen years. Care to guess where it might go in the next fifteen? I sure as hell can't, nobody can; this decade alone has been a series of events causing blindsiding on that front. We can only generally surmise about what things will be like and I'd be willing to bet a lot of it (not all of it) would make many of us utterly uncomfortable at the least.

Fellow I've gotten to know in the last year -- very good musician, friendly guy -- and I were talking about his then-upcoming first kid, now since born, and he was understandably concerned about how to raise a child in a time of the Net, widespread access, voluntary lack of privacy and all it implies. It was a major issue for him and his wife and doubtless will be for a long while. I pointed out, in my usual optimistic way, that our parents would have faced similar questions and turned things over in their minds when we were growing -- raised by the TV and the like -- and that so long as you do the best you can yourself to set a good standard then a kid will sense that and recognize a good way to live and act, no matter what is out there. I still believe this, but interesting times are ahead.

I am also excited at the prospect of childbirth, Laurel. It scares me but I'm so pumped about FACING IT.

I want a home birth. Hospitals scare me.

Ned, I'm convinced that early exposure to media barrage is the worst thing that can happen to kids. Best thing: get 'em hooked on reading and storytelling via the printed page until they're in school. For one thing, it'll teach 'em how to entertain themselves, and for another, it'll give 'em at least a little bit of an attention span. We had our cable disconnected when the kid was born, had it turned back on when she was 5 or 6.

he was understandably concerned about how to raise a child in a time of the Net, widespread access, voluntary lack of privacy and all it implies.

My parents solved this problem by not letting us watch TV unaccompanied, or listen to popular radio. Hah.

No, really, I think this is up to you and the kind of atmosphere you create -- the only thing my parents didn't regulate was my reading, and I read ALL KINDS of stuff at a young age and the things I didn't understand just kind of went over my head until years later, and THAT WAS OKAY.

I just want to add that my main worry on this thread is that I come across as the model which must be followed. Definitely not -- YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY. I have opinions, but they're just opinions.

I definitely was raised in a reading-friendly household -- in fact my mom says she stopped reading to me in bed when I was very small because she kept skipping over parts in things like Paddington books because I might not understand them but as I was reading alongside I kept stopping her and asking to go back. So she figured I was happy reading on my own (and she was right!).

My folks didn't shut off the TV but for a while there between 9 to 13 or so it was very heavily regulated in terms of amounts I could watch per day. Even so I had a heavy glut of TV watching but I think in part this explains my burnout and general disinterest in it today, I just got tired of it, whereas the day I'm tired of books and music is the day I'm dead, pretty much. (My cousins, interestingly enough, were raised without TV at all -- but at present they do let their kids watch stuff; I think they figure it's a reasonable exchange given their differing time commitments as parents as compared to their own folks, but I haven't asked them specifically.)

But it still was a different time/place. Cutting off the cable might sound extreme to some; makes perfect sense to me!

I'm convinced that early exposure to media barrage is the worst thing that can happen to kids.

I just read a book in which the writer points to research showing that kids under two get absolutely nothing from watching the "educational" TV shows/DVDs aimed at them (baby einstein, etc) except the ability to recognise characters. In fact the transfixion infants display in front of the TV is a low-level trance in the face of massive overstimulation.

Yes, exactly how I feel watching the home design shows on a Sunday afternoon.

exactly how i feel working at this fucking place every day, too.

I am also excited at the prospect of childbirth, Laurel. It scares me but I'm so pumped about FACING IT.

I want a home birth. Hospitals scare me.

-- franny glass, Thursday, April 3, 2008 3:26 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

This is exactly how I feel. In fact, I'm thinking about becoming a Certified Professional Midwife when I'm done with my MA.

i want all the drugs they have.

I officially want Michael and Pam to move to the American midwest and become our grownups-with-kids friends. Come on! Pam and my wife already know each other and have similar crafty interests! We can trade off babysitting chores! The four girls can attempt to conspire against us by causing mischief!

(Or maybe I want us to move to London. I'm not sure.)

I used to think I hated kids, based entirely on the situations that people like Ned see - the acting up at airports, etc. I'd look at it and wonder how we as a species continue to propagate - who'd submit themselves to this?? Then I had a couple of daughters, and my perspective changed. I've become the kind of doting dad that people almost avoid lest I launch into a ten-minute monologue about the latest cute utterance or minor achievement.

I still get annoyed by the airport scenes, but I'm willing to cut both the parents and the kids a little slack. But I find that I get REALLY angry when the parents are negligent or outright cruel, and can't watch movies or read news stories about dead, injured or neglected children.

Part of your perspective comes from your own seminal experiences, I suppose. When I was growing up, my parents were clearly unhappy and broke. We're still pretty broke - law school will do that to one's finances - but I think much happier and willing to engage with our kids than my parents were.

x-post - Yeah I was just coming back to say that even though I'm really into birth (ok that sounds weird but I study Women's Health!) I have a feeling that I'm gonna be the kind of person who screams for meds when it's my own turn. I have a pretty low threshold for pain.

I'm also not at all ignorant of the bad sides, either. Kids have an amazing ability to know exactly what ticks you off, and proceed to do it over and over and over again. Our youngest is an expert at this: she knowingly does things that are against the rules, and then she laughs at us when we try to stop her. We keep reminding ourselves that we're lucky to have two healthy and basically sweet little girls, but geez, they can be terrors at times.

Part of your perspective comes from your own seminal experiences, I suppose.

Definitely -- way too long for me to get into right now, but I do know that I wonder occasionally how I'd handle things the way my folks did; they did a really fine job, but I'm not sure I'd live up to that!

Yeah I was just coming back to say that even though I'm really into birth (ok that sounds weird but I study Women's Health!)

http://collegeslogans.com/store/files/master/thumbnails/t_16141_01.jpg

so do people with kids only hang out with people with kids?

Good lord no.

Oh god no. But it does provide bonding/support at times. Most of my parents' best friends were people they met after they had me.

then i'll just have to assume my friend w/kid isn't hanging out with anybody.

Maybe you could call yr friend with a kid and offer to do something cool that the kid can come to? In the spirit of friendship.

naps?

One friend of mine to me many years back: "You're rare -- most of my other friends who don't have kids think my kids come in the way of the friendship." Paraphrasing but the point is that this is a two-way street -- while those with kids (like mike a noted just now) should and many times do realize that being a 'talk only about your kids and drive everyone else nuts' zombie is useless, say, those without kids should realize that just because their friends now have kids doesn't mean they've suddenly all become said zombies. You balance it out. For instance, seeing two friends of mine who have two young daughters now, it's great to see them be very doting but very themselves, him still low key and wry, her still brassy and hilarious. Just treat 'em the same and they'll meet you in the middle -- it's not like they won't want to talk about something else in turn as well!

it seems to me -- and i know i'll get shouted down a bit here, but tough -- that the majority of parents don't think the whole thing through.

You won't get shouted down. You're just way past wrong on this. I know a lot of couples and it was talked about VERY much. It's a very important deal. I mean, shit, when I met my husband, I quickly talked about kids and wanted to know if he wanted to become a parent. That said, you are in no way prepared to become a parent. There's no way you can find out until you become one. It's one thing to love kids, it's another thing to be a parent. It's the hardest but most rewarding thing you'll ever do in your life.

SS, yeah, little kids sleep a lot... but mostly not when you need it most. ;-)

so do people with kids only hang out with people with kids?

Are you mad? I am lucky though: our salesperson had a baby (second one as well) a month before I did. It's a great bond. We help eachother out a lot. She recently said that looking at Ophelia was so much fun cause it was like looking at her daughter. AW.

That said, you are in no way prepared to become a parent. There's no way you can find out until you become one. It's one thing to love kids, it's another thing to be a parent.

Haha, this reminds me of a classic work story involving two former coworkers -- one was a mom with two kids, another a fellow with a long-term girlfriend who got pregnant with their first kid (they're now married, which I gather they'd been planning on anyway so hurrah, and have a couple more kids).

Anyway, in the months running up to the birth he came up with a slew of hilariously ridiculous kid-raising theories ("Just wrap up the kid and I'll take him into work, rock him in a small cradle with my foot"), which he knew were crazy but said to get a rise out of the other coworker, who took them in that spirit and always responded back about how the actual thing would change his mind a bit. So the day comes, he's off to the hospital in the evening and the following morning he calls in:

HIM: "Hey."

ME: "Hey man, how'd everything go?"

HIM: "It was great, baby's fine, my girlfriend's great, etc. etc."

*slight pause, then speaks slightly wearily and with a chuckle*

"...This is a lot harder than I thought it would be."

I bit my tongue a bit, wished him well, then immediately called the other coworker to relay the news and that sentiment. I still remember the laughter.

Being prepared to be unprepared is some of the best advice for a future parent.

Have two. They're small.

I find it kinda depressing that people feel the need to justify the decision to not have kids. I understand the desire to kick against the social pressure, but really - hey there's no shortage of people on the planet, if you don't feel like having kids, what business is it of anybody else's?

They don't need to justify anything to me, Shakey Mo. The world needs all the childless aunts, uncles and interested friends it can muster to swell the babysitting ranks for those with kids. It's an honorable choice.

xpost

people's parents tend to put a lot of pressure on them to have kids so i'm sure a lot of justifications are formed in response to this. but there is some general societal pressure too of course.

"We must keep up with the godless (race/creed/religion of your choice here), have you seen their birthrates?!"

Hahah, Rock Hardy so OTM. The amount of bullshit that comes down to that is utterly infuriating. Like I'm going to become a dad to make Mark Steyn happy.

After I am Islamochristian and have 72,400 dollars

i'm happy enough being an uncle for now

Still wanna have kids?

get bent pretty much summed up all the reasons i'm not so keen on having kids. i've thought about it a lot, and although the maternal instinct is there (and will probably get much stronger in the next few years), i think the reality for me is that i just don't want to have my own. i haven't entirely ruled out adoption, and i'm definitely keen to do some kind of foster care further down the track, but there's a huge pressure for women when it comes to having your own kids: you're on the clock. and that really sucks.

i want to have kids when i'm ready in my mind and my heart, not when my body is ready.

Yes, if I figure out I can be good enough as a parent. I think I'll need a couple more years to figure this out, but it may never be an option in the first place.

i want to have kids when i'm ready in my mind and my heart, not when my body is ready.

yeah I was gonna say... yr body doesn't really give a shit about your mind and heart, after 35 it gets harder and harder to conceive. there's nothing you can do about that (unless you wanna be fertility pill-popping and risk having quadruplets or whatever)

i have a feeling that parenting is like most other big steps in life -- you gotta just fake it

yeah that sounds otm. i'd like a kid at some point, but i don't want to fuck him/her up too much and right now that's a pretty distinct possibility.

I THINK I WOULD MAKE AND REAR SOME DAMN EXCELLENT CHILDREN. I will be a fucking great mom. I can wake up at odd hours and be patient, and I don't yell, but I know how to talk sense into people, and I'm smart and creative.

VOTE ABBOTT FOR 'GOOD FUTURE MOM.' I have my vote!

(it's sweet in that video when then older sister asks the younger sister to dance with her and then says, "are you ok?!")

I'm the oldest of five kids, and my youngest brother came about when I was ten, just old enough to be really able to help out taking care of him & remember it clearly, but still have kidstyle playtime when he was growing up his first couple years. I fucking hated babies before him, but not him He was just too totally cool and funny, from day one, not to totally dig. And he's who got me thinking "maybe kids/babies can be pretty awesome." I mean, seriously, if I had a kid even half as awesome as him I would be so happy and proud.

i think you'd be an awesome mom.

Thanks. I have a few psychological hangups about not being a stay-at-home mom, bcz basically of the church I grew up in where it was tantamount to a commandment from that crazy God fellow. But, shit. It isn't.

From age 18 to mid 20s, I didn't just want kids. That was my goal. obviously, that's usually the worst way to succeed in that goal, especially when you just left a house that equipped you with zero social skills.

One of the reason I wanted to have kids at a young age was to allieve the fear that if I don't pass on my genes, I will be dead after death.. or some weird shit like that.

Anyway, ffwd.

I think I have one or two social skills now, but now that I'm 36 (i.e. VERY very old in Ethan years), I realize that not only can't I do everything, but I can't every try everything. Having kids isn't something one "tries" if a conscience is involved.

I have plenty of friends who had kids, and plenty of friends who are having kids. I've gotten to play with kids. I like kids. But at this path in my life, I just don't need to have them. I don't even want pets or plants. I want to be able to escape at any point in time without having to worry about calling a friend to watch over a loved living thing in my house or apartment.

I've been told I would make an excellent dad by everyone. And I'm kinda sad I'll never know if that's true or not. I'm happy enough to be the honorary uncle, though.

I am willing to vote for abbott for second most awesome mom because my mom is most awesome mom.

I <3 my mom.

still, 2nd most awesome mom is pretty awesome.

i want kids more than i want anything else, except possibly for the maturity and financial ability to care for kids

"yeah that sounds otm. i'd like a kid at some point, but i don't want to fuck him/her up too much and right now that's a pretty distinct possibility."

dude that's gonna happen regardless. :-)

I vote Abbott for mom

I'm resigned to the fact that one of these days, Beeps is going to throw at me, "On August 19, 2009, you yelled at me a bit too loudly to quit messing with the TV. Now, when I touch the remote control, I shudder a little bit."

To which I will reply, "OH YEAH? WHEN I WAS SIX, MY MOM LEFT MY DAD AND WE HAD TO GO LIVE IN A TRAILER. NOW I CAN'T HEAR RAIN FALL ON METAL TIN WITHOUT GETTING FLASHBACKS."

^^^^"I walked 20 miles to school every day in the snow, etc etc"

http://vimeo.com/2113477

i want a kid :-\

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/53/Amelie_poster.jpg

hi super cub-- how is your kid?

adorable, brilliant, and totally fascinating. thanks for asking :)

I highly recommend children.

oh man.

I'd like to have kids, I think it would be more interesting in the long run than not...it's a major life experience I like the idea of having, and attempting to brainwash them with literature, moral values, music, etc. would be cool too (especially if it worked). It would be great to start in my twenties, but I don't even have a boyfriend and may still be in grad school at 30 anyway (I hope not!), so that's probably not happening.

i wanted to have one until like a year ago but i realized i am a self-absorbed career woman and i'm afraid i wouldn't like any kids i have, sort of in the way that i don't like my sister. also i value privacy too much and hate spending money, and i wouldn't like being pregnant because i like being able to move and i try to avoid the doctor whenever i can.

harbl i thought we had a future together

i don't think we have much in common, gr8080

i told my gf for every kid she wants we can get two pugs instead.

gah i would rather have 10 kids than one pug!

well, not really. but large dogs ftw

http://www.dunnsmarshlabs.com/4pugs905.jpg
>>>>>
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2471446543_6bcc6f1b16.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2471446543_6bcc6f1b16.jpg

i told my co-worker that if a girl had a dog that'd be a dealbreaker, but if she had a kid, no problem

co-worker was shocked

both ugly xp

SHUT UP!! Not a great kid pic tbh but those pugs rule.

=P