C or D - banning all private schools

I have spotted a flaw in the thread title...

oh fuck mods please change this while I hide under a fucking rock :-)

i don't know much about the intricacies of the british system, but is "traitor" not a very strong term to apply to someone who's deciding where to put their kids to school, presumably because they see some benfit in it?

Ban all state schools, and make 'em join the army instead.

yeah its quite a hard stance. But the more the middle classes farm their kids out to private schools the less investment goes into the state schools & the poorer kids are left with a second rate education, which is obviously not at all in the best interests of the nation/society/whatever. There appears to be a creeping suggestion that private schooling is the norm (see ILM thread re paul weller. WTF?) Whereas IMO we should be pooling our energies into making comprehensive education work well for everybody. (Also I know plenty of state schools that could do with some really pushy parents to give them a kick up the arse.)

And the argument which goes "i'm in favour of comprehensive state education but I couldn't stand for little Tarquin to go to the local school, its OFSTED results are so poor" is just the worst type of hypocrisy.

But the more the middle classes farm their kids out to private schools the less investment goes into the state schools

Not true, strictly speaking- private school users pay taxes like everyone else. What happens is that private schools drain from the state system those more likely to do well at school, depressing the learning environment expectations for those remaining in the state system. At least, that's the argument put forward by those advocating the ban on private schools, I think.

i'd be worried about little Tarquin getting his head kicked and/or knifed in by the poor tough kids.

I don't quite see how people sending their children to private school reduces the investment going into state schools ..... the school fees they pay cover their children's education with no funding from the government. They're not preventing government money being spent on state schools - if anything, they are helping by reducing state school class sizes.

funding's linked to the demand for places, though. if a state school's pupil population is falling, its budget will (usually) be cut.

I have no desire to read a thread about Paul Weller, but I do know that he went to a state school -- Shearwater in Woking.

but yes I agree with you by and large. If you are not going to bring back state grammars then you need to get rid of independent schools or at the very least force them to all means test the fees in order to create a more equitable society.

Our politicians are largely out of touch with society and this is largely coz so many of them were independently educated. And this applies to all the parties, not just the Conservatives.

There is an interesting Grauniad article on this subject today:

http://education.guardian.co.uk/oxbridge/article/0,,2279013,00.html

What happens is that private schools drain from the state system those more likely to do well at school, depressing the learning environment expectations for those remaining in the state system

Not so simple. In affluent areas there's a higher % of kids who go to private schools, but ALSO better than average state schools, for a variety of reasons. In deprived areas you'll find the failing state schools. Closing a private school in Surrey won't help raise the standards in Lambeth.

the school fees they pay cover their children's education with no funding from the government

Google "charitable status".

funding's linked to the demand for places, though

This linkage is the main reason why standards can't be raised.

This is all hypothetical anyway - private education won't be banned, nor should it be. The main question is how to give the 93% of kids who go to state schools a uniformly high standard of education.

Why should private education not be banned?

I agree it won't be banned, but I think it should be.

The main question is how to give the 93% of kids who go to state schools a uniformly high standard of education.

esp. when the job market is perhaps fundamentally incapable of accommodating a standard. but yeah it's about access/opportunities.

A similar question to the one i asked my doctor mate regarding NHS vs Bupa etc:

What would happen if all the parents who would otherwise have spent vast sums sending their kids to private/public schools, instead made all that money available to the state system?

Skunk eyes at the dinner party, probably.

xpost Its not only about money, as Neil said above. What would happen if those in power were suddenly forced to send their progeny to state comps and thus had a personal interest in ensuring high standards?

Need to define "forced" here.

at gunpoint by the daughters of the revolution...

What I meant was, if private/independent education was abolished, the powerholding class ( ie politicians, media etc) would have no other option but to send their kids to state schools. And I'd bet they would focus on getting those standards up asap.

as for improving state schools: get rid of a lot of the bureaucracy and totally reform OFSTED. If a school gets a glowing OFSTED report the school should not be visited by OFSTED for at least a couple of years. Conversely, if schools get poor results, the inspectors should pay v frequent visits working alongside the teachers to help them improve standards.

...also, stop forcing non academic kids to take academic subjects they have no interest in.

But you know as well as I do that the term "cold dead hands" would come into immediate play if any government ever tried that (xxp).

It might be worth pondering whether we need schools at all, public or private, any more.

why, coz we have wikipedia?

xxxpost if we get rid of the bureaucracy how will we know when standards have increased? :-)

xxpost yah but who will look after the children? nannys are so dear these days.

when the job market is perhaps fundamentally incapable of accommodating a standard

what do you mean, Blueski?

In my opinion our entire education system - particularly secondary and upwards, double particularly the exam sytem - needs scrapping and rebuilding from the ground up. But that ain't gonna happen, and I'm not gonna write out a full manifesto on a Friday afternoon. But if anything I think the problems with what we teach our children, how we assess what they know/can do, and what relevance those things have to their future lives - including but not limited to getting a fulfilling job - are more important than reforming the Victorian class hangover we live with now.

How about keep private schools open but not give them a fucking penny from the Government coffers ever again. There. That should be acceptable...

...what do you mean "securing votes with middle class welfare?"

...also, stop forcing non academic kids to take academic subjects they have no interest in.

-- Grandpont Genie, 09 May 2008 12:51 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah, they're not schoolkids you know.

Historical (Victorian era onward) primary purpose of schools: to condition children for industrial era working environment with the emphasis on instilling unquestioning obedience of authority and punctuality.

Model no longer applicable to 21st century ways of living.

Cattle approach of classroom to be replaced by systems of individual tutoring tailored to child's specific learning needs - public funds freed up would be more than sufficient to subsidise this (no building costs etc.) to ensure that poorer families don't miss out on the opportunity. Still a central (but non-oppressive/non-vested interest) overseeing body to agree standards, set exams etc.

With small tutorial groups of children, societal function of education, i.e. learning to get on and work with others, can be preserved and better focused.

certainly an intriguing idea, Dingbod. It might just work! Have any countries around the world implemented such a system?

i like the current ads for teaching/teachers on TV/ad boards. I wonder how well they're working tho.

Some of Dingbod's ideas have a heck of a lot of merit. I might worry about them leading to further atomising of society depending on how it was done tho.

Every single under-30s teacher I know seems to hate their life intensely, so probably "good". xp

Conversely, if schools get poor results, the inspectors should pay v frequent visits working alongside the teachers to help them improve standards

They already do. But there is massive scope for disagreement about what constitutes 'poor results'. But OFSTED will not help raise standards much.

A tailoring of education to suits childrens needs is a better approach, as Marcello says. Of course secondary moderns used to provide a lot of that with vocational subjects - car maintainance, building/bricklaying, metalwork, horticulture, while more academically inclined kids did traditional subjects.

Secondary Moderns were great at preparing kids to work in an industrial sector that no longer exists.

What would happen if those in power were suddenly forced to send their progeny to state comps and thus had a personal interest in ensuring high standards?

The main problem with this argument is the notion that the quality of local state education isn't already one of the biggest electoral swing issues. Just because people have the option to opt out, and just because many of them do opt out, doesn't mean they necessarily would if the local comprehensive was up to scratch.

So it's not all "oh poor little Tarquin", because although I went to a comp and I'm glad I did, some of the other comps in my borough were fucking horrible and I would have have a pretty appalling time there.

I do think fee paying schools are a corrosive influence, but their very existence should not be a barrier to improving state education. A lot of the time the school itself is less the problem and rather the rampant poverty in the area - and yes the 'cattle-like classrooms' model can be ineffective here. Dingbod's ideas have a lot of merit.

Secondary Moderns were great at preparing kids to work in an industrial sector that no longer exists

true, but they also prepared them to be plumbers, joiners, carpenters, electricians, potters etc - all things that still do exist.

I'm the first to say that kids who hate "academic" subjects need to do stuff that engages them, but reifying the class system on 11 year-olds is probably a bit harsh even for the nu-Tories, and the division between academic and non-academic is part of the problem here.

the school i went to did next to nothing to prepare kids for those kinds of jobs. that was more a 'leave after GCSEs and do an apprenticeship/training with a firm' kinda thing. xp

I don't quite see how people sending their children to private school reduces the investment going into state schools ..... the school fees they pay cover their children's education with no funding from the government. They're not preventing government money being spent on state schools - if anything, they are helping by reducing state school class sizes.

-- C J, Friday, 9 May 2008 13:12 (41 minutes ago)

Sorry CJ, nothing personal, but this is the most pernicious and poisonous misconception about the private sector that there is (and goes double for those who say private healthcare 'reduces the strain on the NHS'). There is, for one thing, frequent state funding and subsidies for private schools. For another, there is the state funding for teacher training - many of these teachers are then leached off to the private sector, making the government investment essentially a waste of resources. Finally, there is the simple fact that schools rely on much more than state funding for their operations - those who are in privileged positions have more time and money to spend on fundraising for their schools, creating mass disparity between state/private schooling.

I'm very tired today, so might not be stating my case in the best possible terms, but hopefully that makes sense to you. Also, this took me about 15 minutes to even write, so I may have missed lots of other people making similar points. Ah well.

true, but they also prepared them to be plumbers, joiners, carpenters, electricians, potters etc - all things that still do exist.

I hear the demand for potters in Inner London has never been higher

My girlfriend works at a primary school on one of the poorest estates in the country, and the most consistent corelation of academic success there is parental involvement. The kids who sit with their parent/guardian to read or do homework every evening are the ones at the top of the class. How/ should parents be encouraged to be more involved - particularly when they've probably had a shitty experience of education themselves?

Don't 'der kids' wot go to private schools be more likely to talk inna "Ali G" style innit?

xpost

In many ways that's why I think you have to design a system that works irrespective of parental involvement, or recognise that you can't meaningfully improve education unless you meaningfully improve society.

Is that what 59% of Tory MPs sound like then? (xp)

I hear the demand for potters in Inner London has never been higher

I heard that too! Maybe we read the same article?

recognise that you can't meaningfully improve education unless you meaningfully improve society.

No desire for that in Britain

i.e. telling a kid from a family where there's been 3 generations of long-term unemployment and nobody he knows has ever had a job they cared about that education will improve his life opportunities is probably not gonna be dead effective.

Optimist Noodle believes that education is a good place to start changing hearts and minds. Realist Noodle thinks we're all fucked.

... not if we send the kids to private school

xp Optimist Noodle, leader of the (social) Transformers.

Mark H xxxxxxxpost:

I'm not too sure whether such a system has been implemented as official government education policy in any other country as such (Sweden perhaps?) but I think it's worth at least considering. It has to be better than the outdated and unhelpful one-size-fits-all approach that the UK public education system uses at the moment (and also I might say in my own time as a pupil, when at eleven everyone was separated into "future" (i.e. the local grammar school) and "scrapheap" (i.e. the local comp) piles, and this was back in the seventies, and looking back at what some of my fellow pupils went on to do on Friends Reunited the authorities seriously got it wrong - all on the basis of a not particularly reliable or helpful exam, viz. the eleven plus).

I think it's hard to judge the decisions parents come to, my Dad tells me that if they'd been able to afford a private school they would have sent me to one because they felt like I wasn't getting stretched, and my Dad back then was a loooooong way from being a Tory. I would never send my kids to a private school, but I've definitely worried about the standards of some of the schools in my city, consistently bottom of the tables as we are, and you do end up asking yourself "am I gonna fuck up my child's education to make an ideological point?"

true, but they also prepared them to be plumbers, joiners, carpenters, electricians, potters etc - all things that still do exist.

-- Grandpont Genie, Friday, 9 May 2008 13:10 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Some of the trades listed GG mentions are ones you'll find listed on the long-term skills shortage lists on the immigration pages of many countries. In the UK there is a major skill shortage of electricians and plumbers (hence the polish electricians you read about "oh no they are taking 'our' jobs, you know the ones we are unable to fill ourselves") To the best of my knowledge there is not a national shortage of rock musicians or journalists, yet the college I'm training at has courses packed full of full-time students learning media studies, or how to play electric guitar in a rock band. The city & guilds 2391 electrical inspection and testing course I started on last week - a qualification that guarantees work with a starting wage of 26,000pa up here in the NE, well, I was one of seven students. Pretty good for me, a middle-aged guy looking to change career (& maybe emigrate) maybe not so good for the GDP of the country, eh.

Don't 'der kids' wot go to private schools be more likely to talk inna "Ali G" style innit?

-- Mark G, Friday, 9 May 2008 13:15 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

Point.

It does seem very important to destroy the sense of competition between and for places at (state) schools. Parents shouldn't have to worry so much about whether their nearest school is good enough, for it ought to be the logical choice otherwise...

But to do this you'd probably have to weight funding across boroughs better too - decrease the divide between one gentrified area and it's neighbouring regions with higher crime and more poverty - so that certain areas aren't particularly more desirable than others, leading people who can afford it to move there and start families etc.

It all feels inextricably linked and as a result extremely difficult to envisage being reworked as it ought to be.

xp NV we are in the same city I believe :-) I worry about the same things although am hoping that the recent improvement in primary schools will translate to high school.

Have to say though, have no complaints at all about my kids' primary school, i think they do a great job.

Ban league tables

I tend to view my attending a private school with a huge amount of ambivalence - I don't think my education was really much better than it would have been at a state school, as it seemed a lot of the teachers we had were fucking rubbish and only taught at a public school because they couldn't deal with working at a state school - couldn't keep control etc. And going to public school doesn't make you very popular on a council estate so I had to deal with that on the way to school and then get the piss taken out of me for being "common" when I got to school. I probably would have been a lot happier at the local comp. So yeah, ban them all!

Not sure where this "talking like Ali G" comes in though, unless it's a recent development.

it all started 10 years ago, with Ali G

i do wonder what the consequences w/ be of another eductional change which would also be highly unlikely to happen -- taking away choice and forcing all kids to go to the school nearest to their home. Obviously this would have to be coupled with a reformed inspection and assessment system, but I think it could have a lot of +ve effects such as improving child protection and reducing traffic congestion.

What I meant was adopting a "street" accent was not something that people did in my day. Obviously Ali G wasn't around back in those ancient times! xpost

Secondary Moderns were great at preparing kids to work in an industrial sector that no longer exists

So there's no demand for builders, plumbers, market gardeners, mechanics?
But yes, obv the curriculum would need to include other, more modern, stuff.

no but we did have Delbert Wilkins (xp)

But you had that Lenny Henry character who said "Wicked" a lot

LOL, major xpost!

Thomas yeah we do and our primary school is great and I have no worries about the secondary school - but all this because Mrs Vague is Catholic, I'm afraid, and I don't feel that's right, really.

such as improving child protection

You realise the ginormousest proportion of child abuse happens in their home and not on the way to school, right?

xp absolutely for the removal of choice. As with rail services and health, introducing the market economic mantras of choice and competition does categorically not improve quality.

In many ways that's why I think you have to design a system that works irrespective of parental involvement

irrespective? i'm trying to think of even a basic framework where the parental involvement would not be one of the most important things in a child's education, but i really can't. is there any such system or even a proposed one that could ever be workable (um, short of hogwarts?)

xposts the idea of kids "having" to go to their local scholl would seem a more logical way to rapidly improve any inequalities that did occur, except that (in Ireland at least) i know many young families that will readily move to another area citing schools asa major factor.

But darragh if you can't educate the kids of parents who simply don't give a toss about education then you have to write off a sizeable group of kids.

i know many young families that will readily move to another area citing schools asa major factor.

i approve of this 'lol mortgages' approach

You realise the ginormousest proportion of child abuse happens in their home and not on the way to school, right?

yes, but I was interpreting child protection more widely than you, covering not only abuse and abduction by adults but also protection from road traffic accidents, being set upon by other kids, etc.

protection from the elements too

Yeah, the problem with 'you must go to your local school' is that Richie McRichington will have no problem upping sticks and buying up property in areas where the schools are top of the table. However, it is still, as far as I can see, the best of all the options.

xposts

xxpost

I'm of the "kids today be getting over-monitored" school of thought, y'see.

Protection from being set upon my magpies who will carry off their spectacles to their nests.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17582/17582-h/images/gs205.jpg

damn magpies, always stealing my homework back in the day

xxxxp so what we need is a compulsory parenting licence. with renewals and retests at 0, 5, 11, 14 and 18 years.

But darragh if you can't educate the kids of parents who simply don't give a toss about education then you have to write off a sizeable group of kids.

yeah, and i'm not for a second advocating that. i was really just trying to even conceive of a system that did not rely heavily (crucially) on parental enthusiasm and participation, and i'm struggling to do that.

maybe a system of education support officers for underprivileged areas? i can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

the other approach is to make those parents give a toss, which is another line of approach altogether (this has been tried in britain, right?, holding parents responsible for truancy etc?)

xposts the idea of kids "having" to go to their local scholl would seem a more logical way to rapidly improve any inequalities that did occur

You'd have to stop selection criteria e.g. stop catholic schools doing 'catholicism tests' and any other selection criteria. The sibling rule would have to go.

Yeah, the problem with 'you must go to your local school' is that Richie McRichington will have no problem upping sticks and buying up property in areas where the schools are top of the table. However, it is still, as far as I can see, the best of all the options

Well, that's happening already with working class children missing out on the good schools due to the fact that their parents can't afford a house in the catchment area. Irony is that a policy which was supposed to increase freedom of choice and raising standards hits the very people who need help the most.

the sibling rule is just pure practicality. I'd welcome that one staying.

Colonel P, I felt I *did* get an excellent education at my private school, but by definition I can't compare it to what I might have got at my local comp (which was pretty rubbish by all accounts). Also, we had a large minority of students who affected a less posh accent. They were mainly nobs, though.

emil.y - what is the difference between the amount per private school pupil subsidised by the government, and the amount the government would spend on the same child in the state system?

Yeah, the problem with 'you must go to your local school' is that Richie McRichington will have no problem upping sticks and buying up property in areas where the schools are top of the table

So let Mr.McRichington send his kids to private schools then.

well, there seems to be a general reluctance to hold parents responsible for anything their kids do in this country...I often wonder what differences it would make to society if, instead of not naming a young offender for legal reasons, the law was changed so that not only did they have to be named, but every reference to them had to say "X, son or daughter of Y and Z".

You'd have to stop selection criteria e.g. stop catholic schools doing 'catholicism tests' and any other selection criteria. The sibling rule would have to go.

there's often been some flexibility here tho. at least one hindu kid in my year at my cath school - presumably just because he lived 1 minutes walk from it (he copped a fair bit of 'casual racism' tho alas).

Personally, I'm against any grammar/technical shit because it's divided on class lines and presumes that every posh boy is going want to do grammar subjects and all that the bottom end scum were good for are technical subjects.

Case in point: me. Just my luck I was stuck in an outer-suburban public school that was defined by teenage pregnancies. So sure enough they start calling it a technical school. Which pissed me off ever so slightly as the subjects I enjoyed like English, Drama and Social Studies were afterthoughts while I was herded into technical subjects that I didn't give a shit half the time.

In any case, no matter where you are in the social scale, you need a combination of grammar/academic and technical (how much of the latter depends on the future pathway for the student). However, such a concept is out of the grasp of any moronic public servant on the face of the earth.

there seems to be a general reluctance to hold parents responsible for anything their kids do in this country

Yeah I'm tired of tabloid columnists banging on about parents not being to blame

Darragh, maybe some kind of education in which all the work that needed to be done was done within the school system rather than relying on support at home. I agree this is utopian stuff but schools are probably trying to do similar things at the moment so perhaps it should be acknowledged and better organised.

xp to KBP : lol "public servant".

King Boy bang on the money, there.

Re the accent thing - that was the main source of grief for me! The fact I had a working class accent that is. I had to adopt a middle class accent to stop being bullied so much. Even then I still got cunts trying to tell me I owed them money cos their parents were paying for my education through their taxes.

Mark C, I do not know, but I am not sure about the relevance of this.

Dr.C, I am dumb, and am not sure about the 'sibling rule'. Explain plz. Also, I'm strongly in favour of abolishing religious schools. Also also, your 'let Mr. McRichington send his kids to private school' is disengenuous.

So many xposts!

Darragh, maybe some kind of education in which all the work that needed to be done was done within the school system rather than relying on support at home.

very sore point in this household at the moment, but STOP CUTTING THE FUCKING BUDGETS FOR TEACHING ASSISTANTS YOU FUCKS might be a start.

King Boy bang on the money, there.

Yeah.

emil.y - what is the difference between the amount per private school pupil subsidised by the government, and the amount the government would spend on the same child in the state system?

The main difference is that the first is a load of totally indefensible, divisive, manifestly unfair crap

i approve of this 'lol mortgages' approach

-- blueski, 09 May 2008 13:40 (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

well, again i think the point is if you are gonna make parents make that choice, what's gonna be more important to them? ideology vs your kid's education? or your mortgage?

if you know there's likely to be a difference in standards/results/quality/whatever (and again i don't know that it's necessarily the case) then which is it- parental irresponsibility or good civic mindedness to not do go with the best education you can get?

Tom D. OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM

There is very little flexibility in my experience, but a few non-catholics will sneak in, ususally because they end up not getting in anywhere else and the local authority has to give em a place. It's got to be rare though as catholic schools are usually oversubscribed.

xposts NV

yeah, i think that parent assisted homework concept is a vicious circle, it's another burden on kids who's parents weren't academically inclined or didn't get the full benefits of education themselves.

isn't there more of a leaning away from the concept of 'take-home' homework in educational research nowadays though?

schools that are open until 7pm with supervised tutorials/homework/study. that's utopian stuff, alright, though i'm buggered if i know why.

though i'm buggered if i know why

poor choice of words, that may well be more of a public school phenomenon

Because they gonna have to raise taxes to fund opening every school an extra four hours a day?

Also also, your 'let Mr. McRichington send his kids to private school' is disengenuous

No it's not, It's practical. He won't have any incentive to move to where the good schools are, as he's not wanting a place there. Mind you, he already lives in the good area probably.

Mind you, he already lives in the good area probably.

chicken/egg

Is that what 59% of Tory MPs sound like then? (xp)

-- Tom D., Friday, 9 May 2008 13:18 (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

No, but their kids do.. (xpost.. I've been doing somethingelse)

Because they gonna have to raise taxes to fund opening every school an extra four hours a day?

well, yeah, but you'd have to presume that a government that would propose a measure like that is not a government that gets in on a low-taxes ticket.

Which means it is a government that isn't going to get elected any time soon.

By the way, the debating skills you are seeing in this thread are the same debating skills that scored me my first girlfriend. She was on the school debating team with me. Not that our debating team was any good considering it was her, my dim mate and me.

well, yeah, but you'd have to presume that a government that would propose a measure like that is not a government that gets in on a low-taxes ticket.

also is it any good for the kids to be in school for 10 hours a day? what about play , hobbies , interests and all the other things that'll make them into rounded human beings?

That's where they find out about these things.

(thanks Pashmina for fixing the thread title btw)

What other time do they have to learn to post to ILX?

your ugly dim mate, surely??

you could try and make schools better places for those hobbies/interests to be indulged (esp. as there will usually be sports and free internet facilties available). obv a massive 'uncool' fence to overcome there tho.

um, xxxposts

The Ali G reference, for those who missed it:

Paul Weller says he sends his kids to private school because he doesn't want them to come home sounding like Ali G.

trans: obtaining a 'London, street patois' accent would be distateful.

Obviously, an accent straight out of the sweeney is alright, which is the accent he presumably gained by going to nonprivate schools. i.e. the 'london' accent from themadays.

I'd say xpost here, as this is the 2nd time of tryin to post this. Busy little thread, aint it?

talking like Paul Weller far worse amirite

Thread to go:

TS: Talking like Paul Weller Vs Talking like Lily Allen

talking like Paul Weller far worse amirite

-- blueski, 09 May 2008 14:13 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

i'd be curious as to what type of accent paul weller thought he was singing with in the jam- posh?

lets just assume that all posts are prefixed with XP:-)

can we set up an ILX Junior then please? Sprogs need to understand what working life in the 21st C is all about...

I won't even comment on the sheer idioticy of Paul Weller there. Hullo-hurrah, what a nice day, etc.

I don't think free internet will bring ver kids into school unless they get rid of the porn filters.

TS: Talking like Paul Weller Vs Talking like Lily Allen

TS: Talking like Grandad from "Only Fools and Horses" Vs Talking like Lily Allen

The more I learn about British schools, the more confusing they become.

i'd like to talk like boysie, what class does that make me?

surely not a class issue for Weller then (xps)

i do a v good Boycie

bloyskie

The more I learn about British schools, the more confusing they become.

don't start with the o_O shit, we'll be onto tipping next :-)

Of course if you want your kids to sound like Ali G you should send them to a Great Public School (tm). Ali G being, in part, a pisstake of Public school kids who talked in Patois; very common when I was in attendance at such an institution.

Maybe it's just a south-east thing or something. This did not exist at my school.

Ali G being, in part, a pisstake of Public school kids who talked in Patois

and played by a guy who went to public school

Indeed. UCS.

I am pretty sure it was mainly a London Public school thing.

I always thought Ali G was a pisstake of Asians kids talking in patois

The "Ali" bit is deliberate surely?

Baron-Cohen claimed it was a pisstake of Jewish kids doing it

Well, he would say that

I'm impressed at how no-one's really gone off the deep end about Weller so far.

So, why *really* does PWell send them there?

1) possibility kids to get kicking of the "Your dad's crap" variety?
2) state schools are rubbish
3) other

but that's the point - kids from all backgrounds do it. the only diff is some do it as pisstake and others adopt it because they like it. Ali G's character was actually the latter.

so, it's this generations' "dead parrot sketch"

surely they b over it now?

FFS just because Ali G is off the telly doesn't mean the stereotype has disappeared. Jesus.

i do a v good Boycie

-- blueski, Friday, 9 May 2008 15:19 (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Mahr-laynnnnnn

The Ali G thing is just a defence mechanism though isn't it, plus a bit of harmless teenage boy rebellion. Watch the patois drop as soon as they start working at the Telegraph.

Didn't really know about it being a public school kid thing, but once I was on a bus and this young fella, obv. rather posh tho he was trying desperately to hide it, got on with a girl and started coming out with all sorts of unintentionally hilarious patter. There was a black guy sitting opposite me and his face was an absolute picture. I memorized some of his lines but I've forgotten them.

I believe the term is "twatois"

xp

OMG.

xp i thought that was how wankers updated their web pages?

xpost to Matt CD: I mean, doing it as a joke to be Ali G, as opposed to being 4 real, etc..

This is one of those things people tend to dramatically change their minds about once they actually have kids, isn't it? I mean, it's all very well when it's an abstract, but when you have to make a choice about your own child, and you consider that he/she may have a better shot at life being privately educated than going to the local comprehensive, then are you really going to sacrifice your child to your ideals?

(full disclosure: I was privately educated; my son won't be, partly because I couldn't afford it anyway, partly because I hated my school, partly because I live in France where everyone goes to the lycée anyway. Ideological concerns clock in at a very distant fourth.)

so in brit-speak, a "public school" and a "private school" are the same thing?

gabbneb - yes.

There is a small and I think insignificant difference, but I can't remember what it is. There are threads about it tho.

but when you have to make a choice about your own child, and you consider that he/she may have a better shot at life being privately educated than going to the local comprehensive voting Tory and dancing on the corpses of poor children, then are you really going to sacrifice your child to your ideals?

I memorized some of his lines but I've forgotten them.

A somewhat anticlimactic ending to that story.

C

They should make all cars limited to the same top speed as well.

Is it too early to call the private school I might want my 14 month old kid to go to about enrollment? I know she wont start until Kindergarten in 2012, but it wouldn't hurt to start kissing someones ass now to make sure she gets in, right?

what about prekindergarten? and early childhood enrichment? the school i went to started kids that early. you could be paying tuition as early as 2010!

WOO

we can afford to put beeps through private school but the next one will have to deal with the public education system. SORRY FUTURE YET TO BE CONCEIVED CHILD. If you didnt want to be second best I guess you should have been born first!

you're forgetting that beeps will be a prodigy after all this schooling. she will be pulling in 40k easy by the time beeps2 needs schooling paid for.

...Tarquin?

http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/article/753/753021/tarkin_1167867382.jpg

^^^ public school puffta

is home-schooling allowed in Britain?

Errrrrrrrrrrrr, of course, why wouldn't it be?

It's banned in some US states (California for one, I think)

cos it's for looneys and communists.

its illegal in australia. i think.

Errrrrrrrrrrrr, of course, why wouldn't it be?

-- Tom D., Monday, May 12, 2008 10:14 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this is a thread about banning private schools; the question of whether or not super-private homeschooling is allowed seems like a valid one. moreover, i would not have been totally surprised if the answer to my question had been "no."

me too.

also, from the outside (lol american), it seems like the byzantine and stratified hierarchy of english schooling would preclude something so disorganized and unregulated as home education. like what if kids don't know which king came after that other king? what if you can't hive off the dumb kids early enough, and they accidentally go to university?

Home-schooled children still have to follow the national curriculum, take standard exams, etc. It's not unregulated in the slightest.

id totally let my kid cheat

you're not allowed to cheat in the UK

like what if kids don't know which king came after that other king?

Serves you right for having weirdoes for parents

Gotcha. I'm shooting from the hip here, but I'm fairly certain that is NOT the case in the states. That is, there are certain requirements that must be met for, say, a GED (high school equivalent), but how you get there is up to your parents/crazy neighbor lady. hence its popularity with religious wingnuts, Bode Miller, and William Upski Wimsatt.

xp

if i wasn't so helplessly social, i think home-schooling would have been fucking rad

If I had been home-schooled, I probably would have gone to college at age 14.

I have home schooled friends and it is very tightly regulated here, you have to follow the curriculum, do the key stage tests and receive fairly frequent visits from social services.

why not just go to school?

full of heathens, dude

no playstation

Banning all private schools would be a major distortion of the market... and would lead to black-market private schools emerging.

Banning all private schools seems rather reactionary/extreme doesn't it?

yes, duh.

http://www.provokateur.com/news/wp-content/photos/CameronEton2_468x420.jpg

Some unreactionary moderates, yesterday.

i think that banning all private schools was mooted at about post number 3 upthread, and it was decided to shoot all children that might grow up to vote tory instead.

ha xpost!

reactionary

adj: said of a person or policies: relating to or characterized by reaction, especially against radical social or political change, reform, etc, and in favour of reverting to a former system or state of affairs.

noun: (reactionaries or reactionists) someone who holds such political or social views. reactionism noun.

In 1972, a crack teaching unit was sent to prison by an educational tribunal for operating an illegal two-tier system of secondary education. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Home Counties underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as teachers of fortune. If you have a maths problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... the black-market private schools.

:D

We must be kind
And with an open mind
We must endeavour to find
A way-
To let the Tories know that when the election's over
They are not the ones who'll have to pay.
We must be sweet-
And tactful and discreet
And when they've suffered defeat
We mustn't let
Them feel upset
Or ever get
The feeling that we're cross with them or hate them,
Our future policy must be to reinstate them.

Refrain 1

Don't let's be beastly to the Tories
When our victory is ultimately won,
It was just those nasty Nazis who persuaded them to stand
David Cameron and Liam Fox are really jolly grand
Let's be meek to them-
And turn the other cheek to them
And try to bring out their latent sense of fun.
Let's give them full air parity-
And treat the rats with charity,
But don't let's be beastly to the scum

The balls of these scumwads

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jan/29/private-schools-criticise-plans-to-get-more-poor-students-into-university

Classic

not just classic but u&k