C/D: being anti-vaccine, specifically when it comes to not vaccinating your children

good balanced nytimes article summing this up

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/21vaccine.html?hp

awful trend, makes me weep for humanity

wait wrong article i meant this http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/25/science/25autism.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all

My kids had all their shots, statistically that ought to be very much safer than not being vaccinated. It's difficult to completely blame worried parents however, considering the generally terrible level of science coverage in the popular media, and the drug companies' track records on being amoral, public health endangering, money-grubbing scum.

maybe if it was only the drug companies alone saying vaccines were safe and dont cause autism, but its the world health organization, the cdc, the fda, the institute of medicine, the american academy of pediatrics, any non-crazy doctor, basically - i think its fair to "blame" aggressively, willfully ignorant parents rejecting modern medicine and endangering their own and other children, yeah

if youre looking for anti-science batshittery this is like creationism x100000 - unlike with modern evolutionary biology, people's refusal to acknowledge the safety of vaccination actually threatens lives

Sure, and I'm sure there are plenty of them out there, but to account for a significant drop-off in vaccinations I think there must be a large group of parents who simply don't understand what good or bad evidence is, or how to assess risk, and the drug companies have played a part in that mystification too.

I come into contact with a fair number of families of people with Autistic Spectrum Disorders and I think the paucity of medical understanding of ASDs is another problem here, parents sometimes are casting around for something to blame.

Jenny McCarthy is a hueg booster of this! And she claims to have cured her child's autism.

I think the anti-vaccine stance is insanely, insanely foolish and short-minded. Vaccine creators such as Dr. Jenner and Louis Pasteur have always been my biggest heroes. Vaccines have done a world of good for this world!

A thing I dislike about it, too, is the suggestion (on whatever level) that having a child with an autistic spectrum disorder is the worst thing that could happen to a parent or their child. It's really dehumanizing toward people with autism, just biased in this way that hurts me.

There are different kinds of interventions that can help children with autism overcome some of their learning/social difficulties, but since it's likely that there's no one cause and no one version of neurodiversity I wouldn't hold out much hope of Jenny McCarthy discovering a "cure".

Seems weird and stupid, but I'm accustomed to people being weird and stupid. If hippy parents wanna reject vaccination, more power to em. Hope they don't expect much sympathy when their kids turn out all wheezy and assymetrical though.

“The very success of immunizations has turned out to be an Achilles’ heel,” said Dr. Mark Sawyer, a pediatrician and infectious disease specialist at Rady Children’s Hospital in San Diego. “Most of these parents have never seen measles, and don’t realize it could be a bad disease so they turn their concerns to unfounded risks. They do not perceive risk of the disease but perceive risk of the vaccine.”

OTM x a billion

That is a good article, ethan.

pretty sure jenny mccarthy is talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy

Yeah, for real, and there isn't mercury in vaccines today anyway...

Whole thing is f'ed up.

ex-mormons make the best rationalists <3

If hippy parents wanna reject vaccination, more power to em

Except that by rejecting vaccination they're not just increasing the risk to their own childrens' health.

It's not just 'hippy parents,' either, it's a pretty wide spectrum of somewhat-reasonable-most-of-the-time adults who hear a lot of the fucking ridic press on not vaccinating.

Except that by rejecting vaccination they're not just increasing the risk to their own childrens' health.

And yeah, the "hippy parents" thing was a joke. No offense to hippys.

Oh, I don't give a fuck about offending hippys, it just makes it sound like this phenomenon is a lot more marginalized than it is.

The current zeal to legislatively mandate perfect, risk-free parenting

What are some examples of this?

Here is way, way, way too much reading w/mad lnkage from a man who is the "Amazing Randi" to the world of antivaccination peeps.

The point of a vaccination programme is to vaccinate as many people as possible. More people vaccinated = less chance of disease spreading/mutating. So there's an element of social responsibility in having vaccinations. All that is besides the argument about children having a right not to be subjected to unnecessary risk by idiot parents. I am all about kids taking appropriate risks as an essential part of their development. But measles can fucking kill you.

What are some examples of this?

And give you encephalitis if it doesn't.

xp

Contenderizer I don't think those kind of charges happen that often, and those parents aren't at risk for letting their kids inadvertently spread disease to a lot of other kids. (This said by a person who had to take care of my bros/sisters when parents were out since age seven and consequently thinks that isn't really a big deal.)

The point of a vaccination programme is to vaccinate as many people as possible. More people vaccinated = less chance of disease spreading/mutating. So there's an element of social responsibility in having vaccinations.

abbott, a.w., and n.v. otm. this is scary.

xpost - in this situation, though, it has everything to do with the parents. they believe that vaccinations cause asd and are attempting to influence public health policy.

I was really surprised to hear Leonard Lopate attack someone he had on his show for dismissing the anti-vaccine movement -- apparently Lopate has a child with autism and he's casting about for someone to blame too. It didn't change my mind, but it did kind of remind me how irrational a rational person can get about his/her own child.

This whole thing has the modern air of treating science as democracy to be voted on by the public, which just isn't how science works.

Why not just establish a dictatorship.

Then everyone will have to buckle under to these ego driven political nonentities and obey every diktat and so called "expert" opinion.

I want my country back NOW, United Kingdom

Recommended by 177 people

Why dont the fabian society make all children and parents who refuse to have the MMR/AUTISM jab to wear a yellow star. So they will be easier recognisable to thier gestapo agents. If they are that concerned why dont the facist fabians offer the SAFE alternative of singular jabs (like Tony Blair gets for his kids) and not the combined one thats not safe?????????????????.

Chris, Runcorn
Recommended by 154 people

This is just another case of some people wanting control over other people, plus Labour's obsession with producing G Orwels 1983 society. Ken Livingstone was known as the Looney left and Im sure its spread to the rest of the labour party.

And what will happen when a child is refused education? Will labour lock up the parents and take the child into Care?

I suppose if the child is a welcomed immigrant this proposed rule would not apply?

wizmyrddin, poor and taxed, United Kingdom

Recommended by 92 people

i remember that, hurting - it was the author of a book about society's increasing ignorance. i can't remember the title now, of course. she apologized for offending him but not for her views on the subject, and iirc she implied that he was an example of how irrationality can take hold.

Dud.

I'm a public health nurse who worked for a time in lefty ol' Boulder, Colorado. Lotsa parents there think it's very progressive to allow everyone but their precious little angels to assume the small risk that vaccinations pose. I never knew people still got whooping cough until I moved there; it's practically endemic during the winter.

Measles outbreaks continue in U.S.

Fuck, see, I think that's the exact opposite of what the 'left' is in my mind, ie being "socially responsible."

So dud, for all of the reasons cited by others above.

I understand the need to understand the cause of autism (one of my children has mild form, probably - we're just getting it diagnosed officially by a psychiatrist at last). But there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that vaccines (or anything in them) are a causative agent.

Not vaccinating your kids increases everyone's chances of getting these diseases, and measles, diptheria, whooping cough, etc. are serious diseases. It doesn't just affect the child who isn't vaccinated.

The other thing that pisses me off is that blaming vaccines just distracts from looking for the real root causes of autism spectrum disorder.

People don't understand how peer reviewed, scientific studies work, and apparently people don't understand that correlation and causation are two different things.

What is really extra fucking dud is airhead Jenna McCarthy going ballistic-rabid when anyone so much as questions the validity of her crackpot vaccine-autism-link beliefs. Reason #9842 against breeding: It gives parents "justification" to act holier-than-thou with regard to any goddamned perceived threat to their oh-so-precious spawn, no matter how outlandish.

Er, Jenny, not Jenna. Like I have any idea who the hell she thinks she is.

ts: anti-vaccine vs anti-fluoride zealots

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2007/11/386308.jpg

Oh, I'll take anti-fluoride peeps any day. Willingly exposing your children to all sorts of horrible diseases is way worse than being like "this drinking water is making us (whatever it is they say)."

true, the stakes are quite different, but the annoyance factor is about the same

fluoride in water just tastes bad. which is why i drink bottled water.

That picture is kind of awesome, gershy.

George Orwell warned us about the dangers of government trying to pass some rules that say you have to do some stuff

I saw a joek bumper sticker today that said

BUSH/ORWELL '04

which is a little confused.

unless he really likes Bush and Orwell.

Or maybe it was short for ORson WELles.

orson welles wanted to put shitty wine in our water supply

We will deploy no flouride
Before Telluride

they don't fluoridate the water here in qc.

je me souviens tooth decay

BUSH OR WELL... SOMEONE ELSE 04

The other thing that pisses me off is that blaming vaccines just distracts from looking for the real root causes of autism spectrum disorder.

yeah, like GLUTEN

WBAI/Pacifica - C/D//S/D

this is the sort of thing I can't think about too much or I get really really angry - "I heard from some people whose knowledge of medicine and health comes entirely through the grapevine that I shouldn't vaccinate my children against rubella. Thank God for word of mouth!"

grr too late. I mean, what really sucks is that there is plenty about medicine as it's practiced that could stand to be broader-minded, more patient-focused, certainly more whole-person in approach, but crazy people make any such talk sound like it's casting its lot in with them, which impedes progress and has genuine costs in terms of human suffering. Is medicine imperfect; could it stand to take lots more stuff into account aside from the hard science of demonstrable causes and treatable symptoms; do health care providers often become so set in their approaches to treatment that they become less effective, failing to hear and respond to what their patients are telling them; does Big Pharma exercise inappropriate influence on diagnostic standards; I would say "yes" to all of these. But "are the vaccines what's actually making us sick?" NO ACTUALLY YOU MORONS, KINDLY STFU.

The fun thing is that this is another anti-rationalism effort, same as the sharpest creationism drive. Certain people are convinced that all the world's experts are lying and lined up to act against them personally.

is this really an anti-rationalist thing, though? the anti-vaccine people's beliefs are grounded in what they seem to assume is hard scientific evidence being suppressed by the medical community.

fluoride in water just tastes bad. which is why i drink bottled water.

this is madness

I'm not sure, personally. I get the feeling that there's a conspiracy vibe amongst amany of the people, that these "scientists" are just corporates lackeys paid to say certain things and not caring about anyone.

xp yeah. That's the thing.

xp
Yeah, I love tap water. Wish I could get it carbonated though.

In that article way upthread it says...

so they turn their concerns to unfounded risks.

This is so otm and drives me up the wall.

Soda Siphon. Just bought one, Cold fizzy tap water all the time.

Tap water depends on where you live. Mine's so hard you could probably hammer nails into it; it tastes horribly chalky. We had our bottled-water watercooler at the office replaced with one piped in to the tap water supply; it tastes awful.

I live in Porkland, Oil Gun. Our reservoirs feature the floating corpses of homeless people and paint cans.

http://www.portlandonline.com/water/index.cfm?a=196059&c=39678

oh, and tennis balls.

Soda Siphon. Just bought one, Cold fizzy tap water all the time.

-- Ed, Monday, 12 May 2008 08:35 (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

I really should have thought of that, I am the stupid. Going to TK Maxx later, bound to have one cheap in there. Thanks.

bottled water is evil.

there's an an upcoming book in the states called Bottlemania:How Water Went On Sale and Why We Bought It by Elizabeth Royte that you guys should read -- it's informative, funny and will turn your ideas about bottled and tap water upside down.

If my ideas are bottled water is an overpriced, expensive, symbol of why we are all going to hell, will my ideas still be turned upside-down?

This is Ed's zillionth soda siphon in like forever BTW. But possibly the first one bought NEW.

Also, to thread, I have a UK friend with 'free-range' kids and am I totally evil for wanting to...sneeze on them?

If my ideas are bottled water is an overpriced, expensive, symbol of why we are all going to hell, will my ideas still be turned upside-down?

Yes - twice.

How much per pound is the meat of a free-range child, as opposed to one from the Wal-Mart deli?

Depends on the marbling.

is this really an anti-rationalist thing, though? the anti-vaccine people's beliefs are grounded in what they seem to assume is hard scientific evidence being suppressed by the medical community.

-- max, Monday, May 12, 2008 4:09 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Link

don't creationists think this too? 'expelled: no intelligence allowed!'

buying bottled water = >:(

wtf is wrong with you people. get a SIGG/Nalgene and a fucking Brita, you pussies

My aunt gets a magazine called "What Doctors Don't Tell You". it's scary, scary publication, the more so because there are people willing to pay for it.

i can't wait to deal with these people :-/

fluoride in drinking water is a nice idea on paper but a bad idea in the real world because the dose you end up with is not correlated with your medical need.

there's an an upcoming book in the states called Bottlemania:How Water Went On Sale and Why We Bought It by Elizabeth Royte that you guys should read -- it's informative, funny and will turn your ideas about bottled and tap water upside down.

I have this on order already! Looking forward to reading it.

The people who buy into the theory that autism is linked to immunization are the kind of wackos who probably think Ron Paul would make a great president. That Jenny McCarthy is the most prominent advocate of this theory speaks volumes about the intelligence level of these parents.

My aunt gets a magazine called "What Doctors Don't Tell You". it's scary, scary publication, the more so because there are people willing to pay for it.

-- darraghmac, Monday, May 12, 2008 12:59 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

my doctor never says "i love you" :-/

my mother is a pediatrician and just flat-out refuses to deal with people who won't vaccinate their kids. i think she figures that parents who buy into this shit are going to be too fucking stupid to handle over the following 18 years.

She's a smart lady.

so i attended a seminar on autism today aimed at educators and of course the question about vaccines and other environmental causes came up. the speaker (who was teaching / research faculty @ stanford hospital) said that they're about to release a big study tracking the incidence of autism (early incidence?) in elementary and pre-elementary children since the state of california switched to non-mercury MMR vaccine (and the other vaccine that used ethyl mercury, what was it again?)

the findings were that not only had it not made a dent in the incidence but that the incidence rate what *still* accelerating at the same rate before and after they discontinued the mercury vaccines. so big, big nails about to go in the coffin for that theory.

he said that what badly complicated the issue was that there was very, very strong evidence that there *are* people who DO seem to get autism-like brain damage from exposure mercury but that it was linked to a genetic condition that only ~1% of the cases had (i think this is old news and maybe appeared in one of the articles upthread)

http://www.ideagrove.com/blog/uploaded_images/ideagrove%20natural-cures-772894.jpg

My Fox News-watching/Limbaugh-listening dad lent me this some time ago, said the guy had a "couple of neat ideas." Who would like to know some of the wisdom contained in this tome?

Please, tell us what "THEY" don't want us to know, but don't blame us when you "DISAPPEAR"

Best place to start is the wiki, natch...

from the same retards that brought you the anti-vaccine movement comes "bioidentical hormones" and how to prevent cancer by injecting estrogen in ur vagina

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-11-09/does-suzanne-somers-cause-cancer/full/

Oh dear god if I ever run into suzanne somers I WILL punch her in the face for her anti-chemotherapy nonsense. Chemo is why more ppl survive cancer now you stupid twat.

Wired Magazine had a great series on the anti-vaxxer movement: the Epidemic of Fear

(“She just might be a pioneer,” said Oprah, who hosted Somers on her show in January and then began Somers’ bioidentical hormone program.)

ughhhhhhh oprah

U.K. Bans Doctor Who Linked Autism to Vaccine - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704113504575263994195318772.html?mod=WSJEUROPE_hpp_MIDDLESecondStories

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00726/SNN0502TVQ-280_726431a.jpg

anti-vax short pulled from Tribeca Film Fest

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2016/03/27/tribeca_pulls_anti_vax_documentary_by_andrew_wakefield_from_its_lineup.html

So, how to deal with a relative who keeps pushing anti-vaccine stuff on you? Both directly to my pregnant wife, and a near-constant stream of articles about it on their own social media pages.

Probably never speak to them again

seems harsh -- but it does make me really mad. Like, why is a pet cause worth souring a relationship?

I don't know what to do about direct pressure. I have a relative who is a chiropractor and sometimes posts anti-vax articles on her Facebook. We deal with it by laughing at her behind her back.

dominique - not to be glib about it, but they're probably crazy. people do self-destructive things when crazy's got hold of them. sometimes the only possible way to respond is to cut yourself off from them.

yeah, we already unfollowed them on the various platforms. It just sucks because it's not like we were feuding or anything. seems so unnecessary

i'd say "senseless" myself. it's really sad the number of people i've had to cut myself off from in the last couple years.

Thankfully have not been faced with this quandary, but if this was coming from someone I cared enough about to not just shut down and boot out of my life, I'd probably be like, "whoa, okay, I want to hear you out on this, but could you just real quick show me your medical degree so that I know you aren't talking out of your ass like a dumb asshole with no brain?"

(I do disappointingly see this nonsense posted on FB by an acquaintance from high school but I've exchanged like fifteen words with her in the last twenty years so whatevs.)

I mean, this is basically up there with praise for Trump and discussion of thetan levels on the list of shit that will make me quickly disavow a person.

I-o-no

http://iowapublicradio.org/post/gop-lawmakers-advance-anti-vaccine-bill-health-experts-object#stream/0

Not vaccinating your children is straight up child abuse and should be treated as such. No kid should have to go through what this kid did:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/09/cdc-treatment-cost-tetanus-unvaccinated-oregon-boy

Children need to be protected from the wilful stupidity of their parents.

Parents are obsolete

When it comes to epidemic diseases with high rates of mortality or lasting chronic health problems, public health measures must overrule personal choice. In places and times where such epidemics were part of the common public memory, this compulsion was taken as a given and people who complained about their loss of liberty or personal inconvenience were forced to obey, like it or not.

We had a measles outbreak here because of the west coast cliche fucking yoni egg idiots who live in these parts

is there a clasped hands meme for rich hippies and evangelicals?

on the one hand i don't want to get all caught up in the internet outrage cycle, and also urban hipsters here like to blame vancouver (not canada's vancouver, washington's vancouver) for everything bad that happens, but on the other hand if this latest outrage-jerk advances the cause of evidence-based medicine, so much the better. certainly i'm not going to tell anybody not to be outraged about a fairly clear-cut case of child abuse.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/19/health/anti-vax-harassment-eprise/index.html

Not long ago, a 4-year-old boy died of the flu. His mother, under doctor's orders, watched his two little brothers like a hawk, terrified they might get sick and die, too.

Grieving and frightened, just days after her son's death she checked her Facebook page hoping to read messages of comfort from family and friends.

Instead, she found dozens of hateful comments: You're a terrible mother. You killed your child. You deserved what happened to your son. This is all fake - your child doesn't exist.

Bewildered and rattled, she closed her Facebook app.

A few days later she received a text message from someone named Ron. Expect more like this, Ron warned. Expect more.

Interviews with mothers who've lost children and with those who spy on anti-vaccination groups, reveal a tactic employed by anti-vaxers: When a child dies, members of the group sometimes encourage each other to go on that parent's Facebook page. The anti-vaxers then post messages telling the parents they're lying and their child never existed, or that the parent murdered them, or that vaccines killed the child, or some combination of all of those.

Nothing is considered too cruel. Just days after their children died, mothers say anti-vaxers on social media called them whores, the c-word and baby killers.

The mother in the Midwest, who wants to remain anonymous, isn't alone.

fuckin internet

there are some really good posts by Plasmon in this other thread, for reference:

jenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots

Australia has some fucking loons and the internet gives them a mouthpiece.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/06/sentencing-their-dog-to-death-how-the-anti-vax-movement-spread-to-pets

jfc

OMG yes I was reading that in disbelief on the weekend. FFS ANIMALS DO NOT GET AUTISM YOU TWONKS.

One of my good friends is (chief?) editor at Graun Oz and I asked her years back if she'd do a story on the antivax loons and she refused at the time saying they didnt deserve the oxygen, but now... sigh.

I’m itching to meet one in person so I can rage at their stupidity.

youd be itching after

You just cant change their minds. My bf's kids mum is like this. They have a rebuttal for every proof you can think of, most of which is "thats fake". It is infuriating.

I suppose parents who have school choice can ask prospective schools whether they accept non-vaccinated kids. If invited to parties, ask whether the hosts vaccinate their kids. I feel the only ways we get over this wave of ignorance are either a) the parents and children feel ostracized, or b) the non-vaccinated children experience a highly lethal epidemic that scares the shit out of prospective parents.

Yeah theres been a few articles of "ex antivaxxers" who only "got it" once their own kid fell deathly ill/died from something preventable which is so so sad.

I'm guessing my imagined argument of 'You are a child abuser and this is basically the same ass beating your children or sending them to work down the mine, both things we don't do any more' I not going to be that productive. (I have other arguments but there is a theme).

so 285 people have come down with measles in NYC, mostly in Williamsburg Brooklyn :/

Breast milk contains aluminum. I say we ban it.

We are declaring a public health emergency in Williamsburg due to the 300 cases of measles reported in our city — primarily concentrated in Brooklyn.

There's no room for misinformation when it comes to protecting our children. Vaccines are safe and effective. They work. pic.twitter.com/0SQtaG8aEU

— Mayor Bill de Blasio (@NYCMayor) April 9, 2019

Every one of those cases needs a visit from child protective services.

Ugh the replies on that thread :/ "its all the Hasidic jews!11!"

i mean

New York City Parents Held Measles Parties To Infect Unvaccinated Children As Officials Battle An Outbreak

meanwhile, Cleveland synagogues are saying "get your kids vaccinated."

https://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/news/local_news/shuls-take-safety-steps-after-measles-outbreak/article_f74e9974-5bd3-11e9-a897-5b8deac5cbde.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

No shit, Sherlock...

Revealed: populists far more likely to believe in conspiracy theories

In the YouGov survey, people with strongly held populist views were on average almost twice as likely to believe that supposed harmful effects of vaccines were being deliberately hidden from the public. They were similarly more likely to believe that the US government knowingly helped the 9/11 terrorist attackers, and that manmade global warming was a hoax.

I did roll my eyes when I saw that headline. Then I sheepishly remembered that every hypothesis, no matter how obvious it may appear, must be put to the test.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/19/survey-shows-crisis-of-confidence-in-vaccines-in-parts-of-europe

France sadly the worst offender.

Laudable impulses (skepticism towards big pharma, heightened awareness of climate change) twisted into knee-jerk refusal and a neo-archaic understanding of the natural/synthetic divide.

Feels like just another sign that we're about ready to concede stewardship of the planet to another species. Hopefully the society of the meerkats will be less utterly ridiculous than whatever the fuck this dumb thing is.

Was thinking of a system that allows parents to withhold vaccinations from their children provided they themselves agree to attend an Ebola party first.

Letitia Wright ("Shuri" in Black Panther) is concerned that the COVID-19 vaccine might have luciferase in it, marking it as an instrument of Satan

sounds legit

Omg get me that vaccine now

Being a demon might be my lot in life

I see what (I think) you did there
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00383539

"I wasn't able to make it through a whole black mass without needing a break. My battle jacket began shedding patches and losing power. My own wife barely even recognized my cookie-monster voice anymore. Then I asked my doctor about Luciferase."

by its name "luciferase" sounds like an enzyme that *breaks down* satan so what are these people afraid of

I think people who can parse scientific terms and antivaxxers don't overlap that much on the old venn diagram

Hopefully just a blip:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/09/health/covid-vaccine-allergies-health-workers-uk-intl-gbr/index.html

This quote is weird:

"As is common with new vaccines the MHRA (Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency) have advised on a precautionary basis that people with a significant history of allergic reactions do not receive this vaccination after two people with a history of significant allergic reactions responded adversely yesterday."

So, as a precaution, people with "a significant history of allergic reactions" should be careful with this vaccine, as is common with new vaccines ... and yet there was no "precaution" given *before* anyone had a reaction to this new vaccine? Shouldn't they have given the warning, um, *before* administering it, if it's so common? I mean, maybe they did, but the story is unclear about that.

I've just - like half an hour ago - had my first ever flu jab.

Haven't had a flu shot since my dad got Guillain-Barré in 1995. Not anti-vax in the slightest, really, but seeing a guy lose his ability to lift a spoon over the course of less than 24 hours was enough to put me off the flu jab for life.

(xxp) Try googling Matt Hancock Is a Fucking Idiot and things may become clearer.

(xp) Now you tell me.

here's how i feel about getting the flu shot: get the flu shot

Yeah, don't see any connection between that and G-B---have seen connection between no flu shot and flu, incl. pretty severe cases passed along by my fervently post-rehab co-worker

my flu jab's booked for next Tuesday, thanks for reminding me i'm lol old NHS

Haven't had a flu shot since my dad got Guillain-Barré in 1995.

aiui, Guillan-Barre Syndrome is an auto-immune disorder and like most auto-immune disorders, a tendency toward them runs in families, so your instinct is not baseless. But I think GBS can also be triggered by getting the flu, so it's still a crap shoot regardless.

this will be the first year in my memory that i wont be getting the flu shot, only because i dont have any plans to be indoors with another human until the day i get my covid vax

we've had all the messages telling the 'priority' ones of us to get the flu jab but then when you try to book a flu jab you can't get a flu jab (unless you're over 65 or whatever it is). My kids have had it though and I'm never usually that bothered about it. And yeah I'd be more concerned about the covid risk of going to a pharmacy and going near a stranger anyway.

We were going back and forth on getting the jab since we're planning on sheltering in place indefinitely and didn't really want to fuck around inside a public place to get it but thankfully our town had a drive-thru flu shot event a couple weekends ago.

While wating for my jab I did notice that the back office of our local GP surgery has a piano in it for some reason.

I got mine done outside at the hospital parking lot, didn’t even have to get out of my car

We always get a flu shot, but this year they've stressed it's more important than ever. First of all, it's possible to get the flu *and* covid at the same time, and you don't want that. Second of all, if you get a flu shot but then develop flu-like symptoms, you might have more of a hint you might actually have covid. Third, each year millions of people go to the hospital for the flu (and thousands die), so getting vaccinated means you might not be one of the people taking up space in the hospital that could be going to someone more sick, ie with covid.

Yeah, don't see any connection between that and Guillain-Barré

This was the issue with the 1976 vaccine in response to a pandemic some predicted would be on par with the Spanish Flu, and which helped set in motion the anti-vax movement. As posted on the CDC site:

In 1976, there was a small increased risk of GBS after swine flu vaccination, which was a special flu vaccine for a potential pandemic strain of flu virus. The National Academy of Medicine, formerly known as Institute of Medicine, conducted a scientific review of this issue in 2003 and found that people who received the 1976 swine flu vaccine had an increased risk for developing GBS. The increased risk was approximately one additional case of GBS for every 100,000 people who got the swine flu vaccine. Scientists have several theories about the cause, but the exact reason for this link remains unknown.

There have been several studies of the risk of GBS after flu vaccine and CDC monitors for GBS during each flu season. The data on an association between seasonal influenza vaccine and GBS have been variable from season-to-season. When there has been an increased risk, it has consistently been in the range of 1-2 additional GBS cases per million flu vaccine doses administered.

Studies suggest that it is more likely that a person will get GBS after getting the flu than after vaccination. It is important to keep in mind that severe illness and death are associated with flu, and getting vaccinated is the best way to prevent flu infection and its complications.

It became such a big issue after 1976 because that marked a big government push for mass vaccination, but the handful of really bad reactions overshadowed the effects of the flu itself, whose potency I think they overestimated.

When there has been an increased risk, it has consistently been in the range of 1-2 additional GBS cases per million flu vaccine doses administered. Thanks, I'll take the risk of that over another really bad case of the flu. Locally, as well as drive-through, drug stores administer shots just outside and/or inside front doors.

it's always weird to me that people who aren't anti vax don't get the flu shot

xp(Although I did first have to take my insurance card back in there to the CVS pharmacy register, not the gen. register at the front counter, but I was masked up pretty good, as were all the workers, and didn't take long.)

I suffer from a mild case of needlephobia so I don't get them as often as I should. That certainly won't deter me from getting the anti-covid vaccine tho.

xp

my lack of getting flu shot has largely been due to forgetfulness. I was told I had to wait for one month after my last trial vaccine, and since then have been so busy that when I finally can take a breath, it's the last thing on my mind.

maybe this weekend!

What's bad is when you very belatedly discover that relatives who have been at family get-togethers on reg basis for decades, incl. w octo-nonogenerian members, have stopped getting flu shots, even though their ins. covers it, but they thought it didn't?? County Health Depts. around here charged maybe $15.00 max. Oh well, they've been good about isolation, masks, but this is an example of why I'm going to keep on w those things even after I get that vax.

$15.00 max That's without ins., which I know from when I didn't have it, a few years ago.

it's always weird to me that people who aren't anti vax don't get the flu shot

I've never had the flu, that I know of, so getting it is not something I ever think about and, likewise, getting vaccinated against it. Plus iirc they're forever running out of it in the UK so, at the back of my mind, is the idea that the good old NHS only has so muhc to go round, best give it to some auld fella who needs it. This year I'm the auld fella.

There are plenty of wholly inadequate reasons why people skip flu shots. I expect the number one reason is they hate needles. Also because people misidentify many brief ailments as "flu", they don't understand that influenza is much nastier, hits much harder and lingers much longer than the pretenders they think of as "flu", and it leaves you weakened for further opportunistic infections that can kill you. Add to that, people easily rationalize away anything that seems inconvenient. Plus, the ever popular laziness. Lots of inadequate reasons.

I always get a flu shot bc the flu sounds bad and I don’t want the flu

it's always weird to me that people who aren't anti vax don't get the flu shot

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, December 9, 2020 5:49 PM (thirty-five minutes ago)

I think the previous calculus of "I've never gotten the flu/I'm young and healthy so the risks of arm soreness for a day or two outweigh the smaller risk of getting the flu" has failed to adequately take into account the fact that immunizing yourself helps prevent the spread of the flu to more vulnerable people. I am hopeful that the covid pandemic will help people realize this is just no longer tenable

the other silly argument is that well, it's not 100% effective. I have some bad news about literally every medical intervention

I really can't believe there's anyone who hasn't had the flu, sorry

Yeah, that seems really implausible. If so, congrats on your immortality?

I got it at 30 for the first time since I was a kid, and I felt weaker than fuck. it sucks so bad as an adult

I may have had the flu before as a child but I dunno honestly. I’ve gotten a flu shot every year from age 18 or so I think and I haven’t had the flu in that time. I guess I’d remember because it sounds like the flu is bad. Anyway that’s why I get the shot, because I don’t want the flu.

Don’t want other people to get the flu either!

I've never had the flu, that I know of, so getting it is not something I ever think about and, likewise, getting vaccinated against it.

This is what I hear from too many people, with the exception of people who used to say this and then got the flu and wished they never got it again because it knocked them on their ass for 10 days. I know two specific people who went from "I never get the flu" to "everyone should get a flu shot, the flu suuuuuucks" proselytizers.

Also, even if not 100% effective, even an "ineffective" flu vaccine has been known to at least reduce symptoms.

I mean the flu can be mild too...like I'm not a doctor - but i mean if you were sick and running some type of fever and it wasn't clearly a cold you probably had the flu

if someone got through their childhood without getting the flu once i will eat my hat

dud

That's just what our lizard overlords want you to think.

"There are plenty of wholly inadequate reasons why people skip flu shots. I expect the number one reason is they hate needles"

― Respectfully Yours, (Aimless), Wednesday, December 9, 2020

seems otm to me

This thread has a lot of early days I miss.

It seems that with vaccines and some other big ticket science topics that scientific method and rigour is losing the fight against (not sure if I'm phrasing this correctly) the democratisation of opinion, where a thousand scientists are drowned in the noise of million comment boxes and online space fillers.

I'm not sure how science wins that space back.

Sorry first paragraph should say early days ilxors

xp I think that's very well said

I really can't believe there's anyone who hasn't had the flu, sorry

Not as described. But a mild case is possible. I get colds constantly, though not this year of course!

I really can't believe there's anyone who hasn't had the flu, sorry

Your certitude on this point is interesting. I've lived and worked in a densely-populated urban area my whole life, and have reached my late forties without ever catching the flu. I've never had the jab either - I'm extremely pro-vaccination, but I grew blasé about flu season.

Never had it either as far as I know.
When I was a kid everything was called 'the flu' but I've not had the 'can't get out of bed to pick up a £50 note' bug.

I somehow managed to catch a cold last week and I hadn't seen anyone. I'd been in the post office briefly, masked of course, I guess I got it in there.

have had actual proper flu once, when I was 14, after I'd had the flu jab. I think that's why I never got it again for years, thinking well it doesn't work anyway. I didn't properly understand the idea that getting it helps other people who are more vulnerable, and I never got the flu again anyway. I started getting it when my wife got cancer. Haven't had it this year yet but I get the impression there is a shortage of it atm in the UK.

i have had the flu like 5-6 times in my life, mostly under age 21 but once at about 30, and i consider myself someone who "never gets sick." i learned for the first time this year that 14% of cases are asymptomatic (# could be different, of course). CDC says 5-20% of people get it each year, with or without symptoms. you can definitely have it and not know it.

In the UK you have to be over 50 and tick various boxes before you can get the vaccine on the NHS, I think that has led to some of the differences in attitudes I've noticed on here between the UK and the US.

had it once in my early 20s, not sure how many days i spent immobile on the couch but when i recovered i had bruises across my back from the pattern of my couch upholstery. also had a fever of 104, which i just rode out bc i didnt know it was super dangerous bc i was a dumbass in my early 20s

I've never had a serious, collapse-into-bed-for-a-week flu, but I get a sniffling cold every single year, and some years I get a rattling, hacking, spitting-out-neon-green-phlegm chest cold. I still get the flu shot every single year because my doctor tells me to. I'll probably get the covid vaccine when/if it becomes available to plebs in my state.

In other news...another hero down.

Vaccine shit is real stupid. How you giving vaccine to people who arent sick??? 💉🚫

— PETEROCK.COM (@PeteRock) December 10, 2020

I've been trying but failing to get the flu vaccine this year because there's a shortage & I'm not considered yet to be enough at risk to be high priority, but I think even at-risk people haven't all been able to get it yet. I talked to my pharmacist about it & she insisted that we could still ask for it but it wouldn't necessarily be covered by insurance, so I asked, how much would it cost, then? apparently 10 € ? she was so apologetic!

I've only gotten the flu vaccine once before, but I wanted to start to participate more regularly now seeing how the pandemic's gone. I have had the flu before; the swine flu year, 2009 I think, I had it pretty bad, was sick for like three weeks.

there are groups of ppl under 50 who are also eligible for the flu jab on the nhs.

As I said, you have to tick certain boxes.

... oops, just noticed I said and not or.

had never heard of people who are not old or part of a vulnerable population getting a flu shot when I lived in the uk.

I have had the flu on various occasions. once I was in bed for about 5 days and had a day or two of hallucinatory dread during which time I was too ill to go the bathroom or get a glass of water from the kitchen. only bothered to get the flu shot once since moving here, it's available to everyone readily, and only costs $20 or so but I just cba.

Get your flu shots folks

I nearly said that's 'or' not 'and'! Just in case anyone reading thought they couldn't get one.

last year my entire household (three roommates I didn't like much) all got the flu, still sat in the common rooms, coughed in them, laid on the common couch, throughout the weekend. it was a day and a half before they let me know "oh btw we all have the flu".

was frankly a shock that I didn't get it. I got my flu shot shortly after but way too late to stop them infecting me.

So funny, I was just at the doctor for something else and he asked me, "Have you ever had a stomach infection?" I said, "How would I know?" and he said, "You would have a fever and vomiting and diarrhea but it wasn't the flu" and I was like, that's literally the symptoms of ever flu ever so again, how the hell would I know?

Idk why doctors think everyone goes to the doctor--most ppl I know just take some Tylenol and go back to bed.

I pretty much run to the doctor if I have a fever of 101 or higher. only time I didn't was when I knew for a fact I had bronchitis, and just did a lot of sleeping. unfortunately was in a production of Jesus Christ Superstar and they couldn't afford to excuse me from more than 1 rehearsal so I infected Jesus and Judas

So funny, I was just at the doctor for something else and he asked me, "Have you ever had a stomach infection?" I said, "How would I know?" and he said, "You would have a fever and vomiting and diarrhea but it wasn't the flu" and I was like, that's literally the symptoms of ever flu ever so again, how the hell would I know?

― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Thursday, December 10, 2020 6:09 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

a common misconception, related probably to the colloquial term “stomach flu” (which is not caused by influenza viruses). if you had vomiting/diarrhea and a fever you probably had viral gastroenteritis, not the flu, is probably what your doctor was trying to convey