Rank the Indiana Jones Canon

I call for an instant ban for anyone who votes Young Indy.

ATari 2600 game

yeah the Temple of Doom arcade game ruled

I call for an instant ban for anyone who votes Young Indy.

We should put that in the FAQ

ATari 2600 game

Ah, bullshit...Total Pitfall ripoff.

I'm voting for Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis.

an Indiana Jones ripoff poll might be intersting.

wuzzat 80s tv show?
Tales of the Brass Monkey???

The Temple of Doom campaign trail starts here.

Was the Atlantis thing a comic book?

Adventure Game

raiders, i mean, no question. gotta be raiders. whatever you have to say in defense of temple of doom, it's still got kate capshaw.

also let's just call it raiders of the lost ark, not the revisionist title.

Yeah, what the hell B.L.A.M.

Last Crusade

also let's just call it raiders of the lost ark, not the revisionist title.

Fair point. I stand rerevised.

You should call it "Episode IV: A New Hope"

wuzzat 80s tv show?
Tales of the Brass Monkey???

tales of the golden monkey, which was much better than that Fake Indy p.o.s. with Richard Chamberlain and those up-side down hanging natives who just thought the world was more interesting that way. lol.

raiders of the lost ark is great in ways that the other movies don't even try to repeat. i like the relative seriousness with which the ark and religious history is taken, the ways in which spielberg creates this vague sense of unease w/r/t the quest, like how some disturbance is being created. the jokey bullshit isn't insulting and sallah and marcus brody are actually a couple of sharp, interesting characters (who somehow turned into buffoons in last crusade).

its interesting how different the first 3 actually are (havent seen the new one yet) -- last crusade is essentially a comedy, & was my favorite as a kid, but raiders is funny while still being a top-notch globetrotting adventure movie. its sort of bizarrely the only indy movie where they really got it just right. i wish the opening sequence of temple of doom was included in that one like ive heard it was supposed to be, cuz thats the best part of ToD too.

maybe the most underrated scene in the whole series is the one at the beginning of raiders after indy swipes the idol & is being chased to his plane by about 1000 natives bent on killing him, & his pilot upon seeing this takes about 5 seconds to decide between starting the plane up or reeling in the fish he's caught.

raiders of the lost ark is great in ways that the other movies don't even try to repeat. i like the relative seriousness with which the ark and religious history is taken, the ways in which spielberg creates this vague sense of unease w/r/t the quest, like how some disturbance is being created. the jokey bullshit isn't insulting and sallah and marcus brody are actually a couple of sharp, interesting characters (who somehow turned into buffoons in last crusade).

-- omar little, Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:06 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

otm, but the marcus stuff in crusade is pretty funny... that one cut-away joke is so classic

ending of raiders... both the melty-faces and of course the warehouse shot are beyondddddd classic

i think all the jokes in LC are classic, but they do render the movie a slapstick comedy at its core

the ways in which spielberg creates this vague sense of unease w/r/t the quest

Yeah, this is pretty much key. I mumbled this on an older thread:

...one thing that's great about the Ark is that its powers are implied or uncertain most of the time. People know what it IS but everyone's guessing about what it can DO, and that makes the unexpectedness of the ending all the more unsettling. That and it's flat out gruesome as well -- but one of the most effective things about the death of Belloq is that while we see him looking in horror at something within the Ark after the angels change to skeletons, we never see exactly what it is (and the only view of what is in the Ark a bit earlier is equally peculiar, seeming to show clouds and smoke rising up from impossible depths).

And comparing to Temple:

But contrast the more elaborate set of the temple and how it's handled -- and one huge problem of that set it that it never stops SEEMING like a set -- with the mysterious shadows and ominous music of the Well of Souls in Raiders, and the exquisite way the Ark is slowly revealed. John Williams's pretty pedestrian 'tribal' music and the big muscle guys with the Shankara Stones just all seems more like something fit for the Allan Quatermain knockoffs that Golan/Globus did the following two years. And there's nothing as flat out weird and uncomfortable as the sudden edit between the scene of the Ark burning off the Nazi insignia to the silent ship bedroom, or the first sudden recurrence of the Ark 'pulse' in the climactic Raiders sequence.

thats pretty interesting stuff to me because the idea of the ark as mystery is one thats never crossed my mind - the faces melting, etc was i think received wisdom for me by the time i saw raiders (or at least, by the time i have a memory of seeing it). thats an element thats totally lost on me & probably lots of other people.

The film sets up the sense of mystery pretty well -- as omar noted, Marcus and Sallah are sharp, interesting characters, and both of them specifically deliver different but parallel 'are you SURE this is a good idea?' sentiments that underscore their own ambivalence. They help/provide moral support/wish they could be there (in Marcus's case) but they're nowhere near as gung-ho.

i really do like 'last crusade' a lot (and 'temple of doom' to a lesser extent), but i think going for the slapstick stuff made LC a little more run-of-the-mill, but then again i think spielberg's methods changed between '81 and '89.

last crusade is like the only action movie that manages to be really, really funny without giving up thrillpower.

i also like raiders best cuz it's the most jewish haha! good for a young slocki

ya and what jordan said: watching it again i was surprised how packed it was with amazing set pieces

(crusade. which i also resented at the time for going all christian)

haha

I still feel like "Raiders" should have won Best Movie.

yeah see, that sounds like raiders to me -- basically a remarkable sequence of extraordinary action setpieces. what sticks to my mind about crusade are the funny bits.

xp totally, what did?

Chariots of Fire

oh, jeez

Indiana Jones and the Chariots of Fire would have been funny though.

Indy slow charging down a beach, Vangelis in the background...

"Waaaaaa-WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA..."

1. First few minutes of Raiders
2. All the rest of it, wtf, get away from me with that crap

Indy versus the one Scottish runner in the bar scene.

"You wanna talk to God?"

"But I talk to him every day! Especially on Sunday!"

1. First few minutes of Raiders
2. All the rest of it, wtf, get away from me with that crap

-- Rock Hardy

this is just bizarre since the first few minutes of raiders encapsulates everything the movies are about. explain?

Sallah has that terrible line in Last Crusade, referring to Brody (I think) trapped in the Nazi tank, designed to show what an illiterate brown-skinner is, that a friend and I snicker over: "He's in the belly of that steel beast!"

*what an illiterate brown-skinner HE is

Nah, that shows he's a poet!

yeah that was cringey xp

Oh cringey, sure. But not racist. Racist is the camel-theif stuff.

last crusade also classic for "it belongs in a MUSEUM" which is a funny line to say about anything all the time.

if you want cringey racist may i direct you to temple of doom

this is just bizarre since the first few minutes of raiders encapsulates everything the movies are about. explain?

That's why it's in first place and all the rest of it is in 2nd place. Fun to watch the first few minutes, but not to watch it repeated 25X. BORING.

The plot point in ROTLA that bothered me most was that you're never told why and how it occurs to Indy not to look at the Ark once it's open. Otherwise omar little and Ned OTM.

However, I'll defend The Temple of Doom as the closest Spielberg came in the series to recreating the absurdity of those Saturday afternoon adventures he loved.

The plot point in ROTLA that bothered me most was that you're never told why and how it occurs to Indy not to look at the Ark once it's open. Otherwise omar little and Ned OTM.

i'll let it go on the grounds that he probably read it somewhere in his research.

yeah i feel like kael said ToD was the best for that reason. fuck her. xp

first 20-30 mins of temple of doom are unimpeachable. rest of it... impeachable.

The plot point in ROTLA that bothered me most was that you're never told why and how it occurs to Indy not to look at the Ark once it's open.

Uh, yes you are! In the initial pictures shown near the beginning of the movie, the figures looking at the Ark are the ones that have laser beams stabbing through them while the guys carrying it have their heads turned and their eyes covered.

I forgot Raiders lost to Chariots, which I am actually okay with; I love both of those movies.

However, I'll defend The Temple of Doom as the closest Spielberg came in the series to recreating the absurdity of those Saturday afternoon adventures he loved.

Thank you very much.

And, while I know its full of "Me Chineeze!" style characterizations, you gotta love the Indy/Short Round relationship. Arguing over the card game, hugging at the end...they're pretty cute together.

also according to the imdb there was a deleted scene where "Imam the scholar forewarns Indy and Sallah not to touch or look at the Ark."

Uh, yes you are! In the initial pictures shown near the beginning of the movie, the figures looking at the Ark are the ones that have laser beams stabbing through them while the guys carrying it have their heads turned and their eyes covered.

Seriously, dude. Indiana Jones is an eminent archaeologist...they've even heard of him at Pangkot Palace!

Kael on Temple of Doom: "one of the most sheerly pleasurable physical comedies ever made." She also said something like if only Raiders had been this much fun.

Screw the plots.

kate capshaw

Short Round is kind of problematic but even worse is the wholesale "lol Indians and their wacky evil kid-hating god" stuff.

Having said that, still love the movie.

also according to the imdb there was a deleted scene where "Imam the scholar forewarns Indy and Sallah not to touch or look at the Ark.

Yes, this is in the novelization (which I read as a kid).

they've even heard of him at Pangkot Palace!

lol this sounds like the Thai restaurant a few blocks from my place.

Short Round is kind of problematic but even worse is the wholesale "lol Indians and their wacky evil kid-hating god" stuff.

Having said that, still love the movie.

-- HI DERE, Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:51 PM (57 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

hahaha and the british wallahs saving the day

ben kingsley died for nothing!

The first two do actually capture a specific pulp-adventure mood that the last two don't, the more I think about it.

YOU BETRAYED SIVA!!! (gibberish delivered through gritted teeth and deep scowl)

but slock kate capshaw was just fulfilling the role laid out for her by those saturday afternoon specials speilberg loved!

also lol Indy feeling up a statue insted of her

Raiders is best.

The plot point that bothers me about Raiders is: since the Nazis were looking in the wrong place, why not let them keep digging there until they get annoyed with Belloq, kill him off, and find other evildoing to commit, instead of doing digging within more or less plain sight of, you know, hundreds of them?

Overthinking things of course.

whatever you have to say in defense of temple of doom, it's still got kate capshaw.

This cannot be stressed enough.

The plot point that bothers me about Raiders is: since the Nazis were looking in the wrong place, why not let them keep digging there until they get annoyed with Belloq, kill him off, and find other evildoing to commit, instead of doing digging within more or less plain sight of, you know, hundreds of them?

I thinkthat it's reasonable for the characters assume that the Nazis, given both the obsession and the resources, would figure they were somewhere in the correct vicinity and would have expanded their digging radius until they found it.

the brilliant screaming-meemyKate Capshaw > Alison Doody (WHO?)

ya need some sexism and racism in a '30s serial, you softies!

Here are P Kael's 3 capsules:

Raiders of the Lost Ark
US (1981): Adventure
115 min
Steven Spielberg directed this high-powered cliff-hanger about the exploits of Indiana Jones (Harrison Ford), an adventurer-archeologist. The time is 1936, and Indy, working for the United States government, is trying to find the Ark of the Covenant (a chest holding the broken stone tablets of the Ten Commandments) ahead of his arch-enemy, the suave, amoral Belloq (Paul Freeman), who is in cahoots with the Nazis. Hitler means to use the Ark's invincible powers to lay waste opposing armies and proclaim himself the Messiah. Conceived by George Lucas, the picture is an amalgam of Lucas's follies--plot for its own sake, dissociated from character or drama; the affectless heroine, Marion (Karen Allen), who's a tougher version of spunky Princess Leia in STAR WARS--and effects that Spielberg the youthful magician has already dazzled us with. Kinesthetically, the film gets to you, but there's no exhilaration, and no surge of feeling at the end. It seems to be edited for the maximum number of showings per day.

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
US (1984): Adventure
118 min
In this follow-up to RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, Steven Spielberg creates an atmosphere of happy disbelief: the more breathtaking and exhilarating the stunts are, the funnier they are. Nobody has ever fused thrills and laughter in quite the way that he does here. Momentum has often been the true-even if not fully acknowledged-subject of movies. Here it's not merely acknowledged, it's gloried in. The picture has an exuberant, hurtling-along spirit. Spielberg starts off at full charge in the opening sequence and just keeps going, yet he seems relaxed, and he doesn't push things to frighten us. The movie relates to Americans' love of getting in the car and taking off-it's a breeze. Harrison Ford is the archeologist-adventurer hero; Ke Huy Quan plays his child sidekick Short Round; and Kate Capshaw is the gold-digger heroine. The plot involves them with an odious boy maharajah and with Mola Ram (an anagram for Malomar), the high priest of a cult of Kali worshippers who come right out of the 1939 adventure comedy GUNGA DIN. This is one of the most sheerly pleasurable physical comedies ever made. A Lucasfilm Production, from a story idea by George Lucas, and a script by Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz. The score by John Williams is too heavy for the tone of the film, and it's too loud. With Amrish Puri as Mola Ram, and Dan Aykroyd in a half-second joke.

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
US (1989): Adventure
127 min
This mediocre third film in the Indiana Jones trilogy-a reprise of the first, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK-is a mixture of cliff-hanger and anti-Nazi thriller and religious spectacle. It's enjoyable, but familiar, and the action lacks the exhilarating, leaping precision that the director, Steven Spielberg, is famous for. The only real spin is in the slapstick teamwork of Harrison Ford as the archeologist-adventurer Indy and Sean Connery as Indy's father, a medievalist who's too engrossed in his studies to pay much attention to his daredevil son's triumphs. The Ford-Connery clowning can distract you from the doldrums of punches and chases and plot explication (this time the Nazis are after the Holy Grail, which, in this account, confers everlasting life).

http://www.geocities.com/paulinekaelreviews/

Please note that Pauline Kael had correctly identified "Lucas's follies" in 1981.

ya need some sexism and racism in a '30s serial, you softies!

This, fundamentally, is why Temple of Doom works and while I still enjoy it. Having said that, my personal value system won't let me rate it higher than the other movies seeing as it's chock-full of stuff I actively disapprove of.

er "while" should be "why"

Sallah has that terrible line in Last Crusade, referring to Brody (I think) trapped in the Nazi tank, designed to show what an illiterate brown-skinner is, that a friend and I snicker over: "He's in the belly of that steel beast!"

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, May 28, 2008 1:41 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

especially since dude playing him is a muslim-hordes-are-invading-our-white-europe dude in real life

There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we daren’t bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially. And rightly we should be. But there is a cultural thing as well… By 2020, fifty percent of the children in Holland under the age of 18 will be of Muslim descent… And don’t forget, coupled with this there is this collapse of numbers. Western Europeans are not having any babies. The population of Germany at the end of the century is going to be 56% of what it is now. The populations of France, 52% of what it is now. The population of Italy is going to be down 7 million people.

that speech was in temple of doom, right?

lol

it was at the dinner scene iirc

i hope thats true about western europe, those dudes really seem to get how shit spins

My problem with Kael's reviews is that you can praise/dismiss the first two films in the same terms.

yeah i like the third review but the first two read like she's got some horses to beat

actually i remember that speech was in the opening of each young indiana jones episode

I call for an instant ban for anyone who votes Young Indy.

Anyone who votes for Last Crusade should be banned. It's got Sean fucking Connery in it for Christ's sake!

I love Kate Capeshaw, haters! She's conceived and played so over the top (she worries about a chipped nail while Indy and Short Round are about to get impaled) that I have to giggle.

chock-full of stuff I actively disapprove of

Can't you just see Dan with his arms folded stomping his feet in the corner, saying "I actively disapprove of that!"?

Alright, so lets make a catalog of the offenses in TofD:

1) Short Round
2) Short Round
3) The fake Chinese spoken between Short Round and Dr. Jones

I think the overall treatment of the Indian villagers and the polytheistic religion is not overtly offensive, and Dr. Jones at least shows some cultural sensibilities when he scolds Willie for not eating the food in front of her.

But I defer to those of Indian descent/those who practice the religion therein depicted/those more familiar with Indian culture.

I seldom read the religion threads, but I'd be very surprised to learn that there are human-sacrificing Kali worshippers on ILX.

I seldom read the religion threads, but I'd be very surprised to learn that there are human-sacrificing Kali worshippers on ILX.

We need to address that deficiency in our next diversity training.

1. Short Round
2. The depiction of Kali (compare and contrast to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali)
3. The banquet scene
4. Aside from the villagers, who are utterly powerless, all of the good Indian people are led by white men. (far and away the least offensive of the four)

banquet scene citation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Ahimsa_and_vegetarianism

Basically the dishes served at that meal were almost all ridiculously cruel and not really in keeping with ahimsa.

Dan, I wish you could've heard the last Chinese-American fellow I dated do his Short Round impression.

It's got Sean fucking Connery in it for Christ's sake!

Just about the only thing I recall 19 years after my one viewing of that film is "THAT'SH for BLASHPHEMY!"

Dream sequel for ILX: Connery slaps around Kate Capshaw

Dan, I wish you could've heard the last Chinese-American fellow I dated do his Short Round impression.

The contexts that suggest themselves.

Personally, I always envisioned Toht, Belloq, Dietrich, and Molo Ram joining forces in some version of the Legion of Doom, with Palpatine directing them.

"hey dr. morbius no time for love... we got company!"

"Hang on, homo, we gon' go for a wide!"

"Hold on to your potatoes!"

"Maybe he likes older women."

(A slightly more clever movie would have played off of the cruelty of the banquet and had Indy say, "Something's not right here; this meal is too nasty...!" in the lead-up to the assassination attempt but, of all of the things it was going for, I think "clever" was pretty far down on Temple of Doom's checklist behind "sensitive" and "subtle".)

(and yes, I am ignoring the double-entendre schtick because I already found enough problems in my last viewing of Temple of Doom and don't need to retroactively add "NAMBLAbait" to the list) (argh too late argh)

"That no cookie!"

"Haha! Berry funny! Haha! All wet!"

"Don't drink!"

(and yes, I am ignoring the double-entendre schtick because I already found enough problems in my last viewing of Temple of Doom and don't need to retroactively add "NAMBLAbait" to the list) (argh too late argh)

-- HI DERE, Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:45 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Pederastic Park?
by Adam Parfrey

A vicious sort of urban legend began to flourish about the time of Richard Gere's alleged alliance with rectal rodents. Its subject was Steven Spielberg, and the gossip had to do with the director's overweening fascination with child actors. Mindful that hearsay is sometimes false, we are withholding the delicious details. But the fact that this rumor exists at all confirms an underlying unease over the presumably innocent entertainments created by Hollywood's oldest Wunderkind.

Spielberg's latest theme park-style extravaganza, "Jurassic Park," isn't as explicitly swishy as his failed "Hook," but it reveals components of the auteur's personality that have parents wondering about the movie's appropriateness for children.

"King King," "The Lost World," and "Godzilla," three monster epics cannibalized by "Jurassic Park," achieved their thrills without resorting to on-screen menacing of tots. Indeed, only on milk cartons can we find children so physically raped as the celluloid juveniles of "Jurassic Park." The film's sadistic tone is established early on, when a fat child challenges the paleontological theories of protagonist Sam Neill. Neill turns on the boy, and in low, menacing tones, he demonstrates to the child how a prehistoric nasty would mangle and devour him. Adding a distinctly Peter Kurtenish frisson, Neill slashes near the child's belly and crotch with a large, sharp claw.
Perhaps among all our "childlike" wonderment with the subject of dinosaurs, we forget that child abusers commonly invoke the threat of large beasts to frighten and silence their victims. Is the director conjuring the trappings of childhood obsessions only to wield them for a darker purpose?

Although overtly sadistic, "Jurassic Park" was reined in by its obeisance to special effects; it revealed few of the excesses of "Hook," in which Spielberg's psychodramatic inclinations were allowed to roam free.

"Hook" is the culmination of over a decade of false starts in bringing J. M. Barrie's Peter Pan to the screen. At first, Spielberg was reportedly considering a live-action redo of the Disney animated feature, starring Michael Jackson as the perpetual pre-pube. But the auteur of suburban childhoos wasn't satisfied with a simple remake.

The high-concept Hollywood sound bite, "What if Peter Pan grew up?" not only indulged Spielberg's predilections, it provided the film's investors with a tinkingly trendy phrase redolent with the "recovery" metaphysics that have become the ethos for Hollywood's haut monde, the same haut monde who have lately forsworn the continual cocaine-and-Quaalude concatenations so relentlessly documented by former Spielberg producer Julia Phillips in her autobitchography, You'll Never Eat Lunch In This Town Again.

The recovery movement is led in part by ex-drunk John Bradshaw, who smilingly encourages his readers to throw off the ruinous shackles of adulthood in order to "liberate the inner child." It comes as little surprise that Steven Spielberg takes part in Bradshaw's therapies, which include workshops where "lullaby music is played and participants cradle and stroke one another."

Asking Steven Spielberg to liberate his inner child would be akin to asking a serial murderer to actualize his anger. By his own admission, Stevie has experienced little in the way of adulthood outside of his overprotective upbringing and the adulatory, toadying fantasy land of Hollywood. Bradshaw's "inner child" therapy is a mere baby-step away from the Diaper Pail Fraternity, a Sausalito-based group for grown men who revert to incontinent fantasy, where surrogate mommies exclaim and coo as they wipe the kinky kid-fetishists' dirty behinds.

Spielberg's is redolent not only of the inner-child component of recovery, but also its darker aspect: child molestation. Bradshaw seeks to place blame for psychological malaise on a dimly remembered past in which some form of traumatic abuse took place. The less the so-called abuse is remembered, the more convinced are Bradshawian therapists that it actually occurred. At the time that "Hook" went into production, all the radio and television talk shows fixated upon child abuse in a catharsis of mass scapegoating. Suddenly, millions of Americans were convinced that they had been molested by their nuclear family or ritually abused by Satanists.

On the crest of the child-abuse wave, Spielberg's Peter Pan project was transformed into Hook, whose ad campaign abandoned the traditional flying fairies in lieu of a stark visual of the prosthetic steel claw gleaming against a black background. The gruesome hieroglyphic was a perfect mnemonic device (see Hook, think Hook) ”but more importantly, it transferred any possible pedophilic overtones from Spielberg himself (the auteur hero) to the classically pederastic fantasy figure of Captain Hook, the fiend who spirits children away to a Neverland where Cabbage Patch foundlings enliven the sodomitical lives of Village People pirates.

Here, Spielberg could be evading responsibility for his alleged tendencies by projecting them onto his villain, a strategy employed by Hitchcock and other directors renowned for their sadistic inclinations.

Peter Pan had, of course, become such a dusty chestnut that almost no one would object to its pedophilic content.

Who would remember that its author, Sir James Barrie, was a full-blown boy fancier who never consummated his marriage to actress Mary Ansell and carried on a passionate "friendship" with the sons of Sylvia and Arthur Llewelyn Davies?

Even today, no one can comfortably explain why Barrie insisted on naming his eternal child "Pan," after the goatish satyr of mythology.

In a tradition begun by Sir Barrie, most stage productions of Peter Pan cast a boyish woman in the lead role, a transvestite tradition Spielberg may well have paid homage to by casting Glenn Close as the bearded pirate named "Gutless."

Pederastic organizations such as NAMBLA insist that children are wise, sexual creatures who should be given the opportunity to be fondled, sucked, and anally penetrated by middle-aged men.

The NAMBLA Bulletin has a special column called "Boys in the Media," tracking the doings of such Hollywood chickens as Macaulay Culkin, known affectionately in the Bulletin as "Mac." The self-described "Ganymedian" L. Martin, who write the "Boys in the Media" column, spoke by phone about Stephen Spielberg and Hook.

"Spielberg is known for his interest in young boys, certainly," said Martin. "A lot of the members have been talking about Hook, telling me how much they enjoyed it."

NAMBLA spokesman Renato Corazza refused to confirm or deny Spielberg's possible membership in the Man/Boy Love Association: "We don't divule our membership rolls."

And is it merely accidental that another pederastic magazine goes by the acronym P.A.N. (Paedo Alert News)?

Spielberg's costume designer Anthony Powell endows Hook's "Lost Boys" with a cute Benetton-meets-Oliver Twist look tailor-made for the chicken-hawk sensibility. Dance of the Warriors, a futuristic fantasy about a warrior cult of young boys who fight right-wing Christians for the privilege of having sex with aging boy-lovers, sports on its cover a salt-and-pepper boy couple who almost precisely mirror two of Spielberg's Lost Boys. The book appeared in the pedophilia sections of gay bookstores just at the time that Hook was going into pre-production.

Just who are Spielberg's Lost Boys? Walter Keane-style big-eyed orphans? Lord of the Flies in Suburbialand?

Hook's smarmy press kit tries to make each personality distinct. There's Rufio ("the proud leader of the Lost Boys, whose determined jousting with Peter for the honor of guiding the troupe of ruffians leads to a new understanding between the two rivals in Neverland"); Ace ("the Lost Boy with all the angles figured out for his peers"); Thudbutt ("whose imposing size belies his gentle disposition among the Lost Boys--but don't get him angry!"); No Nap ("a street urchin complete with suspenders, knockers, a newsboys cap...and a heart of roughened gold"); Latchboy ("the curly-top redhead who always finds himself in the thick of any mischief contrived by the band of tarnished angels"); Pockets ("one of the smallest Losy Boys, who has a particular soft spot for helping Peter get his wings in Neverland"); and Too Small ("the tiniest Lost Boy in stature but one of the feistiest in nature, who wears his pajamas through thick and thin").

Hook's emotional highlight, strangely absent from the shooting script's first revised draft, is the touchy-feely communion of the adult Peter Pan and the Lost Boys. We're treated to prolonged takes of the tykes touching and caressing Robin Williams's face and body.

When the Lost Boys smear war paint on Wiliams's naked torso, the idyll is reminiscent of a certain gay body-painting video advertised in The Advocate "that focuses on creative eroticism, that expands and extends the beauty of foreplay."

There's not room enough to detail the pedophilic implications of other Spielberg productions: the man/boy relationship in "Empire of the Sun," which begins with John Malkovich's comment about young Christian Bale's "sweet mouth" and reaches its emotional climax when Malkovich directs the chicken to move his cot next to his; the child-alien/human ectodermal interactions in Close Encounters; and the sanitized incest theme of Back To The Future.

However, it was E.T., Spielberg's most exalted triumph, which seems to clothe boy-love fantasy in New Age vestments.

Spielberg uses every trick in the director's chapbook to induce us to love a wrinkled, potbellied cosmic interloper that hides in boys' closets and communicates with a glowing, phallic finger.

It was young Henry Thomas's taunt to his twelve-year-old celluloid brother--"penis breath"--that had Spielberg conjure, if only for a disturbing instant, the image of a bald-faced lad with a cock in his mouth.

Although the "negligent" participants got off with nary a knuckle-rap, we must not forget that Spielberg also produced the actual snuff film "Twilight Zone," in which Vic Morrow and two young children were beheaded during filming.

Perhaps the most perverse aspect of Steven Spielberg's work is its obsessive posture of sentimental innocence.

Psychologists trained in the vocabulary of sex criminals often note the cloak of goo-goos and sugar frosting as the subconscious moral gymnastics of repression and guilt transference.

But now that "Jurassic Park" has more openly revealed the overtly sadistic aspect of Steven Spielberg's curious desires, there is only one more place to go for this self-styled avatar of contemporary myth. His movie, "Schindler's List," was filmed in Auschwitz.

you're still a fuckface.

damn grampa you got a spielberg alarm or some shit that was 20 seconds

Goonies are good enough.

I only made it halfway through that article.

"only"

ugh, I now wish I hadn't finished it

It was young Henry Thomas's taunt to his twelve-year-old celluloid brother--"penis breath"--that had Spielberg conjure, if only for a disturbing instant, the image of a bald-faced lad with a cock in his mouth.

waht

Although the "negligent" participants got off with nary a knuckle-rap, we must not forget that Spielberg also produced the actual snuff film "Twilight Zone," in which Vic Morrow and two young children were beheaded during filming.

uh

That is a 1-2 combo of dipshittery right there.

("Hook" can fuck off, though; what an awful movie)

one of my favorite articles of all time i aint bullshittin

It might come across better if it didn't scan like the author was wanking the entire time it was being written.

don't accuse ethan w/out evidence.

It might come across better if it didn't scan like the author was wanking the entire time it was being written.

From personal experience, I can say that this would GREATLY increase the time it would take to write such a peice of horseshit.

Spielberg uses every trick in the director's chapbook to induce us to love a wrinkled, potbellied cosmic interloper that hides in boys' closets and communicates with a glowing, phallic finger.

wau

the auteur of suburban childhoos

YOU PEOPLE. YOU.

karen allen > sean connery > kate capshaw

Now I'm imagining Indy and dad in the hallway in Temple of Doom and, just, no.

"Nocturnal activities."
"WORSH than BLASHPHEMY!"

lol chapbook?

Worst line from Adam Parfey's "Jurrasic Park"/"Hook" rant

The plot point in ROTLA that bothered me most was that you're never told why and how it occurs to Indy not to look at the Ark once it's open. Otherwise omar little and Ned OTM.

i'll let it go on the grounds that he probably read it somewhere in his research.

wasn't it that he saw the picture in the bible, earlier on in the movie, of all the lights coming out and stuff?

(which is basically just backing up Slockis response)

you guys know none of these can touch The Thief of Bagdad, right?

http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=431

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

could be worse

rong, but predictably

refreshingly post-contrarian. well done ILE

i like "post-contrarian"

Kind of surprised by how many non-Raiders votes.

You chose... unwisely. Just kidding, I just wanted to say that.

I don't mind Raiders at the top at all. It's Last Crusade in second I find idiotic.

i had the biggest crush on the young indiana jones chronicles guy

i didn't vote for it though

ok what was i thinking lollll 12 year old me
http://www.webwombat.com.au/entertainment/dvds/images/young-indiana-jones-int-1.jpg

Rewatching Raiders a few years back was what finally convinced me what a genius with sound design Ben Burtt is/was.

The audio track feels so much richer and more crucial than it did for any of the SW flicks; you had Indy's revolver sounding like a fucking hand cannon, the meaty thuds of body blows mixed with Harrison's yelping, the sput-sput-sputtering of the sand-choked engines, the freaky ass electrical power beam that fries everybody at the end and shorts out the generators, etc.

Great Stuff.

really, even more than the OG star wars movies? i mean, the light saber sound!

wtf is your problem with young indiana jones chronicles guy bell labs

i think the pulsing ark sfx at least match the light saber ones

or wait ARE THEY THE SAME THING!!?!

However, I'll defend The Temple of Doom as the closest Spielberg came in the series to recreating the absurdity of those Saturday afternoon adventures he loved.

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:44 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Link

odd meme -- the problem with taking kael reviews as tablets of stone (geddit) is she basically wrote based on her mood that week. in 1981, 'raiders' was a symbol of hollywood turned stupid after 'the numbers' made everything bad. in whatever year 'temple' was made she had learned to love bad pastiches of classic hollywood, hence the rave for this mostly terrible and vertainly racist sequel.

Saturday afternoon matinees were racist and xenophobic; and I don't care about Kael's "evolution" so much as her well-written defense of this one. I'll grant you that she hits Raiders too hard.

"Saturday afternoon matinees were racist and xenophobic" is not a great defence, really.

(it's a very long time since i read spielberg's biog but how much were 1930s serials shown in cinemas where he grew up in the 50s anyway? it seems kinda o_O as an exhibition practice.)

It's not a great defense, but with this series context is all.

the winning title is not the fucking movie title, fuck yr DVD box.

"Saturday afternoon matinees were racist and xenophobic" is not a great defence, really.

This would likely be the view of someone who was OK with Alan Alda turning all the MASH characters into '70s liberals by the end of the series.

(it's a very long time since i read spielberg's biog but how much were 1930s serials shown in cinemas where he grew up in the 50s anyway? it seems kinda o_O as an exhibition practice.)

I bet they ran on TV by then, and/or as a youth he was actually interested in stuff not of his time.

in whatever year 'temple' was made she had learned to love bad pastiches of classic hollywood

You are such a choad.

Nothing "racist" about the shooting-the-swordsman gag in Raiders, I guess.

The first two are the most racist, but also the most interesting. What's the problem?

Nothing "racist" about the shooting-the-swordsman gag in Raiders, I guess.

stop being a fucking douchebag, for a second. Do you know how that gag actually came about?

Twinkie defense >>>>>>> diarrhea defense

Now I get this image of Indiana throwing twinkies at the swordsman. This makes me happy.

"Bad twinkies."

http://www.cinematical.com/images/2005/10/lg_ghostbusters.jpg

Do you know how that gag actually came about?

I probably did 25 years ago; who cares? Did you hear it on a "commentary"?

also, Eric otm.

http://plakaty.123pocitace.cz/other/riders_lost_ark.jpg

daaang

although i guess i shouldnt be surprised cuz you would have to be kinda nuts to think crystal skull was the pinnacle of the series

Post-contrarians. I hate post-contrarians.

http://www.polishposter.com/images/3738.jpg

Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull 2

do love last crusade but it always bugged me how it was a big jesusfest after the old testament wrath of raiders

i never looked it at that way, but you know what, i can't really disagree

Harrison and the great man yapping about Raiders at the 30th anniversarry showing. this appears to have been sneakily recorded (in good quality too) by some bright spark in the audience and is way revealing and funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mXOxbW_Lqc

Supposedly a fifth in the works with Chris Pratt.

from Kael's Raiders review, gen otm

What’s at stake is outside the movie: it’s how the picture will do at box offices worldwide. And maybe the anxiety about grosses is what has emptied the film of emotion. When Marion kisses Sallah a grateful goodbye, you’re surprised by the show of affection: they barely seemed to have met. Despite its daring surface, “Raiders” is timid moviemaking: the film seems terrified of not giving audiences enough thrills to keep them happy. It’s an amalgam of Lucas’s follies—plot for its own sake, dissociated from character or drama; the affectless heroine, who’s a tougher version of Carrie Fisher’s spunky Princess Leia in “Star Wars”—and effects that Spielberg the youthful magician has already dazzled us with. I kept wondering if it was the drubbing that the press had given Spielberg on “1941” (where he was trying new things) that made him so cautious. He seems to have accepted the Lucas pulp-repulped format as a safety net. It’s not right for him. The movie comes alive in the kinetic comedy: in the lowdown, rowdy slapstick, when the Nazi sadist Toht, played by Ronald Lacey, picks the medallion up out of the fire, drops it from his blistering hand, and runs out screaming; and in the balletic slapstick, when Marion is the prisoner of the Nazis and Toht arrives and takes out a metal apparatus that Marion—and we—think is an instrument of torture but turns out to be a coat hanger. But Spielberg fumbles a lot of his action sequences, such as the ones on a tramp steamer and a U-boat, and even the early chase, in which Marion disappears. And some of the episodes are simply tired: a fight between Indy and a huge, sadistic German wrestler; a sequence with Indy jumping on a moving Nazi truck that’s full of soldiers, chucking them off one by one, and ramming other cars in the convoy, to the accompaniment of soul-grinding music. Seeing “Raiders” is like being put through a Cuisinart—something has been done to us, but not to our benefit....

Behind “Raiders” is the soft-spoken George Lucas, who says things like “I’m really doing it so I can enjoy it. Because I just want to see this movie.” I believe him. I wish I didn’t. I wish I thought he talked that way just as a come-on for “Raiders,” because if Lucas, who is considered one of the most honorable people who have ever headed a production company, weren’t hooked on the crap of his childhood—if he brought his resources to bear on some projects with human beings in them—there’s no imagining the result. (There might be miracles.) I don’t think the deterrent to his producing movies with human characters is just financial risk. Lucas, who keeps a tight rein on budgets, probably wouldn’t stand to lose too much of his own or other people’s money. The bigger deterrent may be Lucas’s temperament and tastes. It’s not surprising that he takes pride in the fine toys that “Star Wars” generated, and controls their manufacture carefully; essentially, George Lucas is in the toy business.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1981/06/15/whipped

(I remembered to look for the fly-in-the-mouth moment Paul Freeman has, but you can't miss it in a theatrical screening.)

Which are the otm bits, exactly?

It's a machine more than a movie. Temple of Doom is clearly superior, and I suspect Last Crusade is too (haven't seen it lately).

also anyone who thinks the second film is more racially queasy might wanna take another look at Raiders.

I was sitting there during the first third especially yesterday, watching it hum along, and not feeling much at all, other than "poor Alfred Molina."

Raiders was the first new VHS tape my parents bought (Memorial Day weekend '85); I spent the summer watching it to death, which might explain why I prefer Temple of Doom these days. I can't give aesthetic reasons why it's better.

The Cult of Marion does mystify me, though. Her independence vanishes after the Nepal scenes. At least Kate Capshaw plays the shrieking harpie as written.

btw Belloq is not an interesting antagonist.

Next time, Dr. Morbius, it will take more than children to save you.

Bellocq is a great antagonist for Jones conceptually - same line of work, same abilities but different reasons for seeking same Macguffin, making the quest a struggle between different ethics/values. He's also a ton of fun onscreen. I'll concede though that he maybe needs to interact *with* Jones a little more, or be more directly involved in the obstacles in Jones's path so that that conflict could get hashed out a bit more. But I think it works.

Actually, I thought Dietrich needed more screen time.

or perhaps I like Wolf Kahler's cardboard Nazis (he also played Ribbentrop in The Remains of the Day!).

I had forgotten about the coathanger gag.

the contrast between the seemingly more educated and refined Belloq vs the seemingly more clumsy and less polished Jones.

i think the increasing, creeping, and subtle sense of dread permeating the quest for the ark is that film's strongest point. the early jones/marcus scenes set it up nicely. love their little shared moment of recognition when the gov't dudes mention "Tanis."

"EETS A TRANSMITTER. EES A RADIO FOR SPEAKING TO GOD."

The most evocative scenes are the ones where people are talking about the Ark, especially the "radio" bit but also that early Marcus stuff, Rhys-Davies talking about how maybe it's not meant to be found, etc. It's basically the Maltese Falcon, we get to understand what kind of people these are by how they talk about this thing that they're all trying to get their hands on.

I learned recently that the coathanger gag was actually something Spielberg had wanted to use - maybe even shot - with Christopher Lee in 1941 and was glad to have another chance at. It's a good gag!

speaking of Rhys-Davies, he sure was dumbed down into a cartoon Arab by The Last Crusade eh

Yeah, that's one of that movie's bigger sins.

Watched Temple of Doom on Bluray last night... What P Kael said.

Really, I'm fine w/ Kate Capshaw except they made her say "I broke a nail" twice; that was lazy.

That extended escape/chase/cliffhanger in the last 30 mins is just the best can-you-top-this sequence of its kind.

also, I shed a tear when Short Round snapped Indy out of the black sleep.

yeah, that sequence has always stuck with me, mainly cuz my dad looked kinda like harrison ford when i was young

watching indy turn evil was like watching dad turn to the dark side - way more traumatic to my young mind than the heart-ripping scenes

"Gimme your hat."
"Why?"
"Cuz I'm gonna puke in it."

I don't think "puke" was in '30s American lexicon but whatevs.

Merriam-Webster:

First Known Use: 1601

wait, Rhys-Davies wasn't a cartoon Arab in Raiders?

at least he was a digger and knew history (and looked like he lived well as a result)

Merriam-Webster:

First Known Use: 1601

"Bad dates!"

I don't think these movies are critic proof (especially 2 and 4) but everything wrong with 1 & 3 is a beauty spot, not a wart.

also, I shed a tear when Short Round snapped Indy out of the black sleep.

― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius)

Yes, always.

"What's that?"
"Antidote."
"To what?"
"To the poison you just drank, Doctor Jones!"

the "Anything Goes" sequence is a tour de force.

never 4get:

https://media.giphy.com/media/HdnaJJKDRVeh2/giphy.gif

Last Crusade starts off great then veers into serious corniness by the time they get on the blimp.

Then again ROTLA is pretty much my ideal of the perfect adventure film: no fat, beautifully shot and scored, great cast, hella fun.

chilled monkey brains

it's not an adventure film, CJV, it's a pastiche of one

Says you

yeah, Morbs, there is no way to prefer one over the other. I can sympathize with arguments that TOD is the more pneumatic chapter.

Morbs, how do you rate /King Solomon's Mines/?

I honestly don't remeber ever seeing it, tho the title crossed my mind during the Doom mine scenes.

I checked it out from the library a couple months ago. IMHO it's overall horrible with some really dicey material in terms of race, zero chemistry between the leads, but a few bits of kinda charming "how do we get this across on the budget we've got?" stuff. So overall, might be more worth your time than Octopussy, especially given where you come down on TOD.

i'll see it, how bad can it be with D Kerr

maybe Casino means the '85 one with Sharon Stone.

oh, the horror

very definitely meant the '85 one. is romancing the stone the only halfway decent raiders knock-off? dial down the action, dial up the romantic comedy stuff... good idea really.

the first Mummy movie w Brendan Fraser is p good

I would not see Raiders knockoffs if i wasnt crazy about Raiders

forgot all about mummy. yeah that's fun, despite some unfortunate CGI.

(as Kael pointed out in her review of Young Sherlock Holmes, it had a similar cult plot a year after ToD)

I've seen chunks of the Cyndi Lauper/Jeff Goldblum flop Vibes, and it sure looked like it was borrowing a lot from Raiders or Romancing but substances were involved and honestly I couldn't describe a single specific element of the film. Might be great though!

I saw Vibes and liked it OK. Peter Falk too. From the writers of Splash and other Opie movies.

srsly Dr C, you knew there was a 1950 Oscar-winning King Solomon's Mines, right? I had forgotten there wa sone in the '30s with Paul Robeson.

My pre-WWII Hollywood knowledge is pretty skimpy tbh! I've filled in a few gaps in the last year or so - actually watched most of A Day At The Races last night. But no, I didn't know about that one.

well '50 is after WWII :)

I did notice that the ToD script was by Huyck & Katz, the writers of American Graffiti and Howard the Duck.

(a husband & wife team)

Oh duh. The two movies you posted about got scrambled into one in my brain.

i loved the 80s Kings Solomon's Mines. 8yo me was absolutely in love with Sharon Stone, who gets put through the ringer doing the best old-school damsel in distress thing that was annoying in TOD. it's absurd and OTT but KSM is really really pulpy. the setting is WW1 rather than WW2 but they don't hesitate to do things like have the bad guys listening to Ride of the Valkyries on a Victrola. the imperialist racism is pretty up-front, like the bad guys talking about these "savages", etc, it definitely feels like they just filmed a 19th century adventure book. in many ways the lower budget takes on the serial revivals succeeded in more closely mimicking their source material than the big budget counterparts. also see Starcrash/Star Wars.

Richard Chamberlain was a pretty decent Indy knock-off, he pulled off that classic Errol Flynn-style laughing adventurer guy smile. there was a great scene where he used his feet to hitch a ride on a train that my dad always hated cos it was too unrealistic. the sequel, Lost City of Gold, is far worse (the guy playing the mock Indian guru is pretty bad) although it does feature James Earl Jones walking around with a giant axe.

Raiders is the best of all these imo. the soundtrack is really great and helps to sell the mysticism of everything. the world-building is great, and we get the sense that Indy has been at this a while and there are these supporting characters all doing the same, with Belloq, Marion, and the off-screen father (who was ruined in KOTCS.) "He's become obsessed with the occult!" that whole bit where they are talking in the beginning with Indy about what the ark is and going into the history a little is just great. imo Raiders has the perfect mix of seriousness and silliness, pratfall action and spooky ancient mysteries. Marion gets a bit screechy by the end but that intro in the Nepalese bar she runs where she wins the drinking game is pretty rad.

i loved the 80s Kings Solomon's Mines.

the imperialist racism is pretty up-front, like the bad guys talking about these "savages", etc

i gotta be honest i'm having some trouble reconciling these two comments

Kings Solomon's Mines is an 1885 adventure book, but I suspect the '80s version was only semi-faithful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Solomon%27s_Mines

http://www.theraider.net/information/influences/king_solomons_mines_1950.php

usually the bad guys in these types of movies don't hold back. also see the Nazis in Indy films.

i quoted too much of the second comment there - should have left off the part about bad guys

from what i remember of seeing king solomon's mines a couple of years ago, the way it presents the (ahem) 'natives' would be pretty icky regardless of what the bad guys said about them

yeah i wholeheartedly agree there. the cannibals chanting around the giant human-size bowl is straight out of the Jungle Hunt videogame (or any cartoon ever). western pop culture is a landmine of problematic tropes. its possible to reconcile that (or even use it as a learning experience) and still enjoy the spectacle.

My family went to see Allan Quartermain and the Lost City of Gold at the cinema because my mom thought it would be like Indiana Jones. We all left angry.

lol

According to Rotten Tomatoes, the film has received two positive and one negative review

The two positive reviews were from Golan and Globus.

Marion deserves better.

"HAD AN AFFAIR WITH HER WHEN SHE WAS ELEVEN." 🤮

(George Lucas, Stephen Spielberg, and Lawrence Kasdan brainstorming Marion's character in Indiana Jones) pic.twitter.com/4pX00CLwSL

— Men Write Women (@menwritewomen) July 28, 2020

why does everything have to be terrible, jesus christ

nooooo D:

Fantastic piece on Last Crusade: https://www.brightwalldarkroom.com/2021/11/05/dont-call-me-junior-indiana-jones/