Arguing with your partner / spouse - what's normal?

I think fist-fights can be part of a mature and loving relationship.

depends if you agree a "safe word" first.

With my girlfriends, we tend to argue about silly things, like whether she should put the gun down.

My beloved and I do not argue much, but maybe we also avoid subjects that could cause disagreements, thus building up festering resentments that will one day explode into extreme violence.

We had a dumb argument in the garden the other night and I ended up drop kicking a pot plant, tub and all, right over the back fence. Definitely not cool. Neither was climbing over the fence to sheepishly retrieve the remains once darkness had fallen. We rarely really argue though and it's normally other factors that cause it (mostly goddamn GODDAMN tiredness).

it's so specific to the couple but i think either can be normal. not arguing is good in an obvious way, but arguing can sometimes mean feeling honest and comfortable. also there's the cliche of where there's friction there's passion or whatever. can be true.

we argued a lot when we were younger but now its reduced to an occasional shorthand of grunts and withering looks when one or both of us are inconsiderate.
we're also much quicker to make up now,ie we don't stew for days as we might have done 10 years ago.

(Nick, answering your question, normal is whatever you're both cool with)

Surmounter OTM, it depends on the couple. I've been in a long-term, live-in relationship that was almost completely argument-free but terribly unhappy. My current, very happy live-in relationship features minor arguments approximately bi-weekly and an actual FIGHT I'd say once a month.

i've been in the long-term-relationship-with-no-arguments-and-miserable situation, and i've been in the long-term-relationship-with-no-arguments-and-happy situation, so not much useful advice there.

short term relationships tend to be short term because of arguments IMO, but i definitely wouldn't be worrying about not having any arguments- what's the alternative- arguing because you 'should' be?

No arguments is only a problem if you're unhappy in the relationship, as others have pointed out. Otherwise WAU AWESOME.

My beloved and I do not argue much, but maybe we also avoid subjects that could cause disagreements, thus building up festering resentments that will one day explode into extreme violence.

-- The Real Dirty Vicar, Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:15 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

^^^this

My current, very happy live-in relationship features minor arguments approximately bi-weekly and an actual FIGHT I'd say once a month.

ya!

I've been together with my wife for 19 years, and we have just little snipey disagremeents every once in a while. We used to have occasional MAJOR blowout screaming and crying fights, but we've moved ourselves to a position in life where a lot of other stresses, which is what we were really sublimating in those fights, are now gone. Can't remember the last time we had one of those.

live-in relationship

i hate this phrase. it sounds like a real estate term or something.

"1 live-in rltnsp - Needs work - great deal, cozy, w2w sexing"

Mrs Trifle and I argue every single day and have done for the past 22 years. We've never had a problem with it but friends often comment and so do our children, so we have tried to tone it down a bit. But she's so fucking irritating.

The big dramatic screaming rows dropped off years ago. It's just little niggly things these days. But we do constantly take the piss out of each other, with merciless mutual glee.

I do know one couple who never argue about anything, ever. They know it's a bit weird, but they're blissful anyway.

I'm not big on fights, I don't easily lose my temper or raise my voice, and I feel like if you do that too often over small things it just trivializes when there actually is something serious to argue about. Plus everyone in my immediate family has a terrible temper, so I'm sure I could too if I indulged it (not to say I 'bottle it up,' but I don't think letting it loose all the time is any better). My wife favors the silent treatment and avoiding me when she's mad, which used to drive me nuts, until I realized that the alternative was her being really nasty and mean, so now I tend to just leave her alone or try to defuse the situation, instead of escalating it. But in a way I think it's lucky that we've never had something super serious to fight about, and that usually it's about a mistake or problem of my doing, so ultimately it's best for me to lay low and be apologetic, which is the path of least resistance. I don't really know how it would go down if we really disagreed about something big, because she's really strong-willed and I'm not sure I'd 'win' even if I was right.

Yeah, the only way I ever 'win' a fight with my wife is a couple of days later she'll recast the argument in the context of whatever emotional shit was going on, thus not quite admitting I was right, but admitting that the shit she started the fight over was kinda bullshit. During the fight tho? She's got so many more rhetorical weapons than I do.

I think my rhetoric and debating skills are pretty on point, they're just a lot more useful in some trivial argument about music with someone I'm not afraid to be a dick to than in a marital dispute about some real life shit. Even when I have a good point sometimes I just know I have to hold it back because it would come off as smarmy oneupsmanship.

the last two posts are pretty close to my situation

the amazing thing about fights is how the topic of contention seems to shift and slip around almost immediately - it's like a mutating virus

the lovely emma b tends to realize the moment it becomes totally unproductive and then just shuts off, preferring to let it keep for later, which drives me up the wall cause i want to, you know, FIGURE IT ALL OUT RIGHT NOW but once things have gotten to a certain point it just becomes impossible and you have to let it cool off, which i'm slowly learning how to do, but it's hard

the last time i was home i noticed - for the first time in my life - what a hair-trigger temper my father has. it seems to come from nowhere, and is pretty alarming, it's like WHOA. i've been interrogating myself for signs of this. unsurprisingly, with my dad it's much more pronounced if he's had a stiff drink or two, which is pretty much every night.

Thanks, everybody, for talking about fighting with your wives! You are totally furthering my dreams of someday being a real pain the ass (less likely in my relationships than you'd think!).

in the past i've slapped my boyfriend. but he knows it's only my childish attempt at impersonating old-school movie actresses in distress, and doesn't hate me for it. he's only slapped me once, when i was hysterical, going for the slap-the-crazy-woman bit. it kind of worked.

I think my rhetoric and debating skills are pretty on point, they're just a lot more useful in some trivial argument about music with someone I'm not afraid to be a dick to than in a marital dispute about some real life shit. Even when I have a good point sometimes I just know I have to hold it back because it would come off as smarmy oneupsmanship.

-- some dude, Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:42 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Link

^^^^^ on green like onions

man it suxx to know you're right but you can't say it

yeah a lot of times it makes you out to be some ruthless competitor who must always assert rightness

Me and my wife never fight. We occasionally disagree, but these disagreements never escalate even to the level of raised voices. And the best part, my wife totally forgets about any disagreement exactly 5 minutes after it's over.

RS doesn't fight. He just kind of sits there and very rationally talks through disagreements which of course drives me crazy. Ha. We bicker often (over silly stuff that's forgotten as soon thereafter) but rarely fight.

Ha - LC. I think we kind of just said the same thing.

Has Sunny posted here yet, or is she still on the 'I Want Another iPhone' thread?

I did grow up in a house where there was lots and lots and lots of fighting. No real physical violence except for my dad putting his fist thru everything from walls to dressers. This very much shaped my attitude about fighting: The damage a big fight does to a relationship is irreversible, I believe. Even if you make up and whatnot, yr future interactions are forever shaped by the expectations past fights have burned in yr psyche.

Some couples fight a lot, others don't ... how you both feel about the way you're handling conflict is probably more important than the amount of ruckus you raise in the process.

After the fight or non-fight is over, do you generally both feel like you understand them and they understand you? Are you both able to acknowledge and apologize for causing problems? Are you both able to let things go after a while, even when you know you are right and they are wrong?

If you both feel like you're communicating openly, getting problems solved, and enjoying being together, it probably doesn't matter whether you sit around smiling blissfully at each other all the time or scream yourselves raw on a regular basis.

So this is how im going to get my iphone (xxp)

"Another"? Wait, you mean she already has one?

The damage a big fight does to a relationship is irreversible, I believe.

yup

I think fist-fights fucks can be part of a mature and loving relationship.

There are no real rules when it comes to relationships. It's not a science. Some couples fight, some don't. Since I grew up in a household which didn't avoid arguments, I don't see it as a necessarily bad thing but I'm sure most would balk at the idea of a (verbal) fight. That said, when it gets extremely nasty, I tend to walk out. Why? Because at some point you're just running in circles and you won't kiss'n'make up. Then it's time to walk away and cool the fuck down. I tend to realize I'm being a royal bitch (and sometimes still think I'm right). But y'know one of the key things I have learnt: even if you're right, what the fuck does it matter at the end of the day? I prefer to shut up about it and make up. I'm in it for the long run, not win some petty argument (-> I can be delusional at times).

xpost No, it doesn't. Only if you let it.

But Nick, dude, I'm... I'm not sure if I'm in awe of people who fight very little. Maybe that says more about me than it should. I don't like like fighting but I don't like festering wounds/things, y'know. I can be a bit confrontational. And I prefer to fight it out than letting it linger.

Walking away - not stomping away - is absolutely ESSENTIAL once a fight reaches a certain critical mass. There's a point at which you're not listening to each other and there's nothing to be gained from continuing to speak, you need that space on your own to calm the fuck down and re-focus on the bigger picture.

can we get that on the FAQ

and backdate it to, like, 1998

i never fought with my last bf. And it wasnt passiveness or stewing - we just got on wonderfully, liked and agreed with each other on a lot of things, and were quiet and calm people who bounced off each other well.

Which is why I dont understand why my current bf, who is also quiet (though in a more passive, do-nothing, inert way), can get me so frustrated sometimes. I'm in the "its not him its me" frame of mind about it, I think I'm under a lot of stress and have somelingering issews to work out in me head.

We never fight either though. I just get upset occasionally, gripe at him, and blubber, and he calms me down. Poor bastard :/

Noodle otm, with one important addition, if you are the one to walk away and your spouse insists it would be better to keep going to a resolution, then you must say when you will be willing to resume the discussion again, more calmly. This allows it not devolve into a power play.

Yeah I know there's all sorts of nuances around the whole thing. I'm the one who wants to keep thrashing away cos I think I can resolve the situation whereas Mrs V tends to get all "I want to stop talking about this right now" and then I get incredibly frustrated/angry cos I'm in mid-argue, but I've realised that calmly (as possible) saying "we need a breather here" and stepping outside has prevented a lot of unnecessary extra wrong turns.

I dont mean to cast aspersions on anyone here but I honestly couldnt bear to be in a relationship full of arguments. It would kill me, and I'd totally lose my feelings for the person, to be honest. Ive had friends who just endlessly snapped at each other over the most pathetic things, and I didnt understand why they were even together.

Never underestimate the magical possibilities of hormones and alcohol.

Hah, I know what both do to my own temper, so I'm with ya on that one ;/

our biggest argument (seriously) involves bunting in baseball, specifically whether one should expect a major league ballplayer to be capable of it. we try to avoid this issue now.

We probably argue about every two to three weeks. Sometimes more. We both like being right and we both have quite short tempers and pedantic and dramatic tendencies. Bad combination for peacefulness. We're quite similar, which is why we argue so much, but also why we get on so well. I've always been of the flare-up-and-cool down school - I don't really understand festering resentment types - it confuses me more than anything else. That said, I think we'd fight less if we had a bigger house.

Really really stupid shit we've argued about:

Britain in the 1980s: did the north or the south have a worse time of it? (I blame Andrew Marr for starting that one.)
Radiohead.
Stockholm - is it boring?
Ken Livingstone.

Actually, saying we both like being right is an understatement. We both believe we are obviously right, all the time, because that’s just how the world works. We are what happens when solipsists date. In most moods we can laugh at ourselves and each other though.

That sounds very familiar. Me and lovely Emma B are two of the most stubborn people alive.

ctually, saying we both like being right is an understatement. We both believe we are obviously right, all the time, because that’s just how the world works.

My friend Allison has a button made for her in high school by a friend, which says "WHY DON'T THEY ALL REALIZE THAT I'M RIGHT?" It is still true today. (And she usually is.)

but don't you live in France or something? xp

Yes. In a loft.

haha the "but I'm always right!" thing is so painfully true

The things is, I am always right.

sometimes i'm so right, i don't even have to say anything and he knows.

it's not about being right

RONG

That's what people say when they're wrong.

lol beaten to it

"it's not about being right"

Exactly. If you say it isn't, you can be lucky your partner is so forgiving because at the end of it you HAVE to be able to give in. What is more important: being right or being with your partner? That said, I am very difficult and also want to "win".

Also, being right is often very relative.

What is more important: being right or being with your partner?

yes

I knew you were gonna say this. I KNEW it. :-) Pinches your cheeks, you silly. So so silly. :-)

How come we never get to say 'The Lovely Tracer H'?

I don't really believe in arguing. I feel that there is another way. Perhaps I am mistaken.

Blowjobs?

Wait. That makes no sense. Please ignore u_u

some of our arguments are about blowjobs, but sadly very few seem to end in them

I feel that there is another way. Perhaps I am mistaken.

infuriating them into paralysis perhaps

No - just not arguing? Surely we are adults, we do not need to argue in that way; we can talk reasonably about things, see differences, try to work through them in a calm and cooperative manner. Is this not true?

well, sure, but its kind of boring

TS: 'boring' reasonableness vs the pain and damage of vitriol and abuse from someone you care about

i don't trust/believe people who say "we never fight, we get along great." you're either a) holding shit back and letting it bottle up b) letting yourself be a doormat c) being obtuse at how you define "fight." sometimes a heated argument may not rise to the level of yelling, vitriol, stomping around and leaving the house. . . but you're still disagreeing with the person, and to think otherwise is some magical realism fairytale bullshit.

I ache for the touch of your lips, Dear,
But much more for the touch of your whips, Dear.
You can raise welts
Like nobody else,
As we dance to the Masochism Tango.

Let our love be a flame, not an ember,
Say it's me that you want to dismember.
Blacken my eye,
Set fire to my tie,
As we dance to the Masochism Tango.

(xpost)

At your command
Before you here I stand,
My heart is in my hand. Ecch!
It's here that I must be.
My heart entreats,
Just hear those savage beats,
And go put on your cleats
And come and trample me.
Your heart is hard as stone or mahogany,
That's why I'm in such exquisite agony.

My soul is on fire,
It's aflame with desire,
Which is why I perspire
When we tango.

You caught my nose
In your left castanet, Love,
I can feel the pain yet, Love,
Ev'ry time I hear drums.
And I envy the rose
That you held in your teeth, Love,
With the thorns underneath, Love,
Sticking into your gums.

Your eyes cast a spell that bewitches.
The last time I needed twenty stitches
To sew up the gash
That you made with your lash,
As we danced to the Masochism Tango.

Bash in my brain,
And make me scream with pain,
Then kick me once again,
And say we'll never part.
I know too well
I'm underneath your spell,
So, Darling, if you smell
Something burning, it's my heart.
Excuse me!

Take your cigarette from its holder,
And burn your initials in my shoulder.
Fracture my spine,
And swear that you're mine,
As we dance to the Masochism Tango.

Whoops...

Arguing is inevitable really, with anyone and everyone with which you have a substantial connection or frequent contact with. I suppose it depends on where your line is re what an argument is. Can arguments not be had without anger? Or are they just discussions?

those are your only choices, pf?

I just don't, generally, believe in Arguing in the sense of a conversation held in anger and bitterness - not if it's between two people who are close and important to each other. I can imagine having such a conversation with someone else - some pub irritant or party-going tosser - but I would not hope to have one with someone who really matters to me and is a constant in my life. I don't mean to claim that I have never had such an argument, but I do struggle really to remember one in a long long time. And insofar as I have been drawn into them (with family for instance, though perhaps that's different from the thread topic), I have always thought this a bad thing, regrettable, not valuable or appropriate.

I'm very much in favour of Discussion, Blueski, and I suppose they may include radical disagreements. As you say, this may all be partially about how one defines arguments.

Arguments, I think, may well be the function or result of a problem - a lack of space, frustration with work or life, etc. And probably they express things other than their ostensible subject. But I don't think these are arguments in favour of arguments, really.

I think it's actually impossible to have the kind of deep, grinding argument one has with one's loved one with a stranger in a pub, or a party-goer. It has to do with the kinds of things you "allow" yourself to say to someone close to you, which you would never countenance with someone else.

What things are they? (Perhaps the answer is unsayable, and I suppose I do not expect it from you.) I don't know, TH, I find that claim quite disturbing. I don't think that there are things that I would want to say to someone close to me that are harsher than what I would want to say to some other tosser. But it's possible, by comparison to you, that this signifies a deficiency in my life.

If I care about someone that much, I think I would be reluctant to say anything that bad to them - because how will they ever forgive me, how will it ever be taken back? To put this another way, here is something I really dislike about Arguments - they are so artifical, because they must presumably end and be resolved and everyone makes up. So it feels like you ought to just look ahead to that point, see what kind of resolution is available, have the kind of rational, give-and-take discussion that you will have at that point anyway.

I realize that the reasoning of the above could look flawed; you may well say that you can only reach that reasonable point through having the argument; that you cannot have it prematurely. I'm not sure.

it's more that the kind of things you can say to a stranger in the pub aren't really personal, or aimed at that person, as opposed to just being generic trash talk?

i'd never argue with a stranger, i argue all the time with people i know, but rarely in an angry/mean spirited way.

some of our arguments are about blowjobs, but sadly very few seem to end in them

Man that sucks.

waheeeeeeeey

But DM, I don't want to say something 'personal' and 'aimed' to someone I care about. It sounds dangerous - a bit like taking out a kitchen knife and attacking someone I care about.

well, agreed PF, but I think the point is that it's a whole different kind of argument, and difficult to compare the two.

here is something I really dislike about Arguments - they are so artifical, because they must presumably end and be resolved and everyone makes up. So it feels like you ought to just look ahead to that point, see what kind of resolution is available, have the kind of rational, give-and-take discussion that you will have at that point anyway.

Yessssssss oh dear this is my problem with never expressing dissatisfaction in relationships -- because it would need the emotional trigger of an argument to bring hidden things out (things I'm afraid to say), but I never HAVE the argument because it seems silly and dishonest.

Things that will trigger my temper: when I feel "nagged" or when I feel unfairly judged. I'm such a baby.

I thought you were Kel!

I think it's actually impossible to have the kind of deep, grinding argument one has with one's loved one with a stranger in a pub, or a party-goer. It has to do with the kinds of things you "allow" yourself to say to someone close to you, which you would never countenance with someone else.

-- Tracer Hand, Friday, July 11, 2008 3:08 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

very true, very very

pinefox, I agree that there's something strange about it.

it would be pretty boring to agree with your partner/spouse on everything, all the time

^^ I know.

http://www.bsot.org/images/The_Thrill_Is_Gone.jpg

I Love Semantics

Hey, guess what's fun -- conflict with someone who's bipolar! And having to develop whole different sets of responses based on a sliding scale of manic, depressed or on an even keel. Fuck all y'all who don't know what that's like. (j/k)

Ugh, I am learning that skill set right now and very much wondering if it's worth it.

My answer is yes, but YMMV.

How long have you been at it?

25 years.

lol

YMMV = ?

"your mileage may vary" (ie, what works for me may not work for you)

they must be yummy? in latin?

tuae (mileage) fluctuat

Surmounter, what was that "lol" for?

also my partner and i have not argued yet altho we have only been together a month

We've been dating for a few months and it's largely been great, but when the arguments come, they require entirely new levels of patience.

It's like I'm thankful to ilx for the terms "o_O" and "challops" for giving me the ability to describe them to myself.

rock, i lolled at your flat tone in describing your evidently very serious relationship of 25 years. also i'm relieved to know us crazy people don't drive everyone away :)

i don't trust/believe people who say "we never fight, we get along great." you're either a) holding shit back and letting it bottle up b) letting yourself be a doormat c) being obtuse at how you define "fight." sometimes a heated argument may not rise to the level of yelling, vitriol, stomping around and leaving the house. . . but you're still disagreeing with the person, and to think otherwise is some magical realism fairytale bullshit.

This statement is either a) a confession of radical immaturity, b), a sign of advanced mental disease, or c) a poor troll. In all cases, it is a conclusive indication that dating Mr. Que is hazardous to yr health.

rong

lol, i can't date anymore

Things that will trigger my temper: when I feel "nagged" or when I feel unfairly judged. I'm such a baby.

this is me exactly, unfortunately. i threw a crispy tonight because my wife told me I browned veal 'the wrong way'.

To be fair, I am a little emotional these days.

veal? gross

Nagging is the worst though.

my girlfriend and have big fights once every six weeks or so, more often if we play mariokart

^yeah except instead of mariokart insert magic:the gathering

i am a really big baby when i get destroyed by too many counterspells

me and my ex once slept with a scrabble game between us in the middle of our bed because we were both too stubborn to put it away. it started with "ok pack that up and turn out the lights" countered with "why don't you?" it spiraled out of control from there and the goddamn thing stayed there for two days.

also my partner and i have not argued yet altho we have only been together a month

A partner after only a month? What's wrong with people calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend any more? I fell old and not with it :(

A good fight can be good for clearing the air. That is very different from a bad fight. They are just trouble.

me and my ex once slept with a scrabble game between us in the middle of our bed because we were both too stubborn to put it away. it started with "ok pack that up and turn out the lights" countered with "why don't you?" it spiraled out of control from there and the goddamn thing stayed there for two days.

Instead of thinking what yr "partner" OWES you, you should view such incidents as opportunities to increase yr goodwill reserves with them/decrease karma.

Or to play one hell of a triple word score.

In other words, if you do enough favors for yr lover w/o keeping a tally sheet, then eventually they start to think about how many favors they owe you. That is, unless they're a cunt.

you are a bonkers person

Bonkers with luv.

Instead of thinking what yr "partner" OWES you, you should view such incidents as opportunities to increase yr goodwill reserves with them/decrease karma.

-- libcrypt, Friday, July 11, 2008 3:17 PM (Friday, July 11, 2008 3:17 PM) Bookmark Link

yeah, well without going too much into it one of us had a u.s. government sized deficit in the karma department.

When people say they can't believe that some couples don't fight, it says more about them than the non-fighting couples. Actually for the longest time I never believed it either but then I "woke" up realizing it said a lot about me. I... I don't love fighting but I am not averse to a good fight cause it can clear the air. You will say things "unsalted" which is very essential for everyone involved.

I can empathize with folks who understand that the need to fight occasionally is just part of who they are: Be it a short fuse, the need to blow off steam, the inability to be diplomatic, or whatever. At least there's a self-awareness to their situations, and they can probably navigate around issues reasonably well. What I simply cannot understand is the folks who insist that fights add authenticity to a relationship -- that they are necessary for it to be "real". I said this above, but I'll repeat: There is nothing, or at most, very little, that is positive about fighting. Each fight leaves a permanent scar. You may not realize it, but as with any action you take, you condition both yrself and yr partner with every fight. All future actions are performed in the context of the possibility of a future fight. You may perhaps avoid certain topics, henceforth, harbor resentments that seep out in passive-aggressive ways, or even seek out confrontations because the alternative, happy coexistence, is simply too booooring.

c) being obtuse at how you define "fight."

How am I being obtuse about defining "fight"?

My view is that "fighting" lies between "bickering" and "murder".

Each fight leaves a permanent scar.

Look, every relationship is different. For you, obviously, every fight leaves a scar. But not for everyone. Some people have learned how to have fights and shrug off their effects or accept the change that those effects bring and then they move on.

Also you can have fights that aren't serious at all. Granted, they are more likely to be about celebrity relationships than your personal finances, but still.

i would go insane if i lived with someone who shared my exact ideas on everything and refused to call me out when it's warranted. i'm sure there are couples who don't fight just as there are couple who don't drink or fuck either and i wouldn't want to find myself in that kind of relationship either.

also, me discussing "relationships" is about as useful as me planning to give birth or walk on the surface of the sun.

Also, as noted above, there are a lot of people using "fight" as a synonym for "disagree", which means that a lot of the disagreement on this thread is happening because people aren't actually talking about the same things (hence my "I Love Semantics" post upthread).

I do disagree with my wife at times. We bicker once in awhile. I don't think we've ever raised our voices at each other, though. It's not some kind of robot relationship, either. We just mutually decided that we wanted to settle issues without resorting to fireworks. We've been married 4 years now, and I suppose it's possible that things will change, but having had a lot of girlfriends who were the real = fights type, I feel very lucky to have a wife who isn't that way.

For the purposes of argument, HI DERE, I would try to define a "fight" as an argument that involves raised voices, purposely mean statements, perhaps insults, and in rare cases violence. That sort of thing. If you are both calm and arguing as if you might in a philosophy class, then it's not a fight.

It's not like I go looking for situations in which to have a fight and then think "Oh good! We can have a jolly old ding-dong." In my experience one doesn't tend to notice what's going on until you're in the middle of scrap and stuff me and Mrs V did 6 months ago is being dragged out of the argument cupboard for re-examination.

(I feel I should point out that over the years me and my wife have got a lot better at resolving our differences, and defusing blazing arguments, and we don't fight very often but they can still be quite incendiary when they happen. Then we kiss and make-up and I really don't feel like any of our fights still scar us today.)

If you become visibly angry, then it's probably a fight.

I think that's a good enough definition, yeah.

In my experience one doesn't tend to notice what's going on until you're in the middle of scrap and stuff me and Mrs V did 6 months ago is being dragged out of the argument cupboard for re-examination

Not to be critical of you in particular, NV, especially since you seem to have things well under control now, but in my limited experience, fighting trains one to save up little incidents for use in the next fight. That's not the right attitude to have if you want a good relationship!

We bicker once in awhile.

This is what I am calling a fight or argument. Obviously, if I was in a relationship that featured these sorts of things that you mentioned

involves raised voices, purposely mean statements, perhaps insults, and in rare cases violence.

I would not be in that relationship for long.

oh, see, i was referring to screaming, police, weaponry, trips to the ER, etc. etc. keeps things spicy that way.

Well, I do bicker with my wife once in awhile, and I'm certainly no more holy than anyone else in that respect.

My worst girlfriend -- I was 19 at the time, and she 18 -- I managed to so infuriate that she attempted to initiate fisticuffs while we were arguing in her Camaro in my (family's) driveway after a "date". That's really not an ideal end to a date.

fighting trains one to save up little incidents for use in the next fight

Boy, does it ever. Meet my bi-polar brother.

I think anger is the key word here for sure. Having a disagreement over who'll win big brother or wether to play Depeche Mode or the Cure on the cd player isnt a fight! Its stuff everyone does.

Having words over an issue that comes up because one or both parties are angry/frustrated/pissed off, THATS a fight, and thats what I personally find I dont end up in when I am in a good relationship.

Also maybe this has been said but peoples need to stop going "This is just like that time when you..." sooo accusatory and bound to lead to a wildly escalating fight with ridiculous consequences that you later will regret. Seriously the bringing up of old shit just feels like judging and also it allows bad vibes to fester and...its just deeply unhealthy. Resolve it then and there or forget it and move on.

HD may love semantics, but I was not using 'fight' as a synonm for 'disagree'. It's proper for all kinds of people to disagree all the time - and if we agreed about everything, we would never need to have those reasonable-as-possible conversations I was trying to describe above. There is a big difference between disagreeing about something, which can be done quite gaily, and arguing / fighting / falling out / insulting someone. They are quite different scenarios.

Personally I would not use the word 'fight' so much either, perhaps thinking it the more American term in this context - just as I would normally say 'ill' rather than 'sick'. I would normally stick to 'argue' and 'argument'.

Libcrypt, whom I don't know at all, has been unwontedly, and fairly inexplicably nasty to me on ilx in the past; I find this a pity as I agree with just about everything he says here, find it wise and sensible.

Raggett's Scrabble post was droll!

(I feel I should point out that over the years me and my wife have got a lot better at resolving our differences, and defusing blazing arguments, and we don't fight very often but they can still be quite incendiary when they happen. Then we kiss and make-up and I really don't feel like any of our fights still scar us today.)

Yes! I do get a bit grrrr when my husband senses (and tells me so) I am a fighting mood. He just avoids it. I get upset at it but then I realize he is/was right and can laugh about it (now anyway).

Also, I pity the ones who never fight: no make-up sex. hahaha

Libcrypt, whom I don't know at all, has been unwontedly, and fairly inexplicably nasty to me on ilx in the past

I was convinced that you were trolling, piney. I apologize for any and all nastiness.

I agree with piney. You're inexplicably coarse at times. But hey, live and and let live you know? Doesn't bother me.

Ugh, in a really shitty mood today due to this. Usually we are able to wrap up our arguments and find some peace before we go to bed, but not last night. So I'm still pissed, hurt, and operating on a very fitful night of little sleep.

that is the worst. and waking up in the morning under the black cloud of despair is awful, too.

like... you know you're either gonna keep arguing about it, or you're gonna have a tremulous detante... until you can get back into it. and you also know nothing will be "good" for at least a few days.

my sympathies –- this is the worst.

there is something I really dislike about Arguments - they are so artifical, because they must presumably end and be resolved and everyone makes up. So it feels like you ought to just look ahead to that point, see what kind of resolution is available, have the kind of rational, give-and-take discussion that you will have at that point anyway.

I feel this more than ever. I'm not sure I'll ever learn to blow off raised voices and swears and accusations -- it's just a miserable grind that makes me want to be somewhere else. By the end, you've raised (or lowered) the bar for real resolution so much that no one WANTS to work things out anymore.

But I like the healthy variety of tolerances for fighting/anger on this thread, and the understanding that these things happen and the relationship won't be "over" or irreparably changed/flawed.

Thanks remy. This is one of those where both of us are being stubborn and refusing to apologize or admit any wrongdoing. Normally we are both really quick to cmoe to our senses and realize when we are being idiots and apologize accordingly. This time, however, I really don't feel like I've done anything wrong and I'm in the place where I don't want to "cave" about this because I feel really strongly about this issue. Apparently she feels the same and we're stuck in this horrible zone.

I know this isn't fair of me, but I kind of feel like the "need" to vent out or get things out or show anger to another person just for the sake of it...that feels like a character weakness to me. Giving rein to a temper just because it's easier or more gratifying than keeping it in makes me wonder what ELSE might that person do just because it's easier and more gratifying. Smacks of a lack of self-discipline and an excess of short-sightedness.

I always feel stupid and ashamed of myself if I lose control with someone else, and vow learn a lesson and be more reasoned next time. This inhibits my fighting skills big time though obviously.

as my marriage counselor told my wife and i...arguing is still a form of communicating. Its healthy to argue. My wife and I went through years of barely any fights and once the marriage counselor told us that if you aren't arguing your relationship is not healthy...the shit hit the fan. Its a good way to get out what you need to say.

as jon says above we try to never go to bed angry at one another. Of course if the arguing is to the point where its constant then its time to re-examine the relationship and where its going. We ended up in counseling exactly almost to the date of the 7 year hump in marriage. Every marriage/relationship has its highs, lows and middles. As a couple people tend to get to comfortable with one another and just let things lax in a relationship. When that happens things get troublesome. Just remember that no one is perfect.

Jon, it's kind if a yuk spot to be in...the forced politeness & stony silence that carries into the next day is never good to deal with.

Can you talk about it with her once the dust settles a bit? I've had a couple of those with my husband where neither of us really cave, we just say why we got so mad, and the apology is for the reaction rather than the content, still agreeing to disagree.

Laurel, I agree with you re venting. My bro-in law has big tantrums about shit whenever it takes his fancy, and I honestly don't know how his wife stands it. Like, do you really need to put that shit on everyone? That super-selfish rrrRragh I'm mad about this thing pay attention to meeee is kind of embarrassing. But he's a pretty extreme case. Lovely guy otherwise, lol

Chris, that's really good advice. I tend to freak out a little over arguments, but then I have to think, am I being yelled *at* or is something just being said to me loudly :) my mum used to fly into rages a lot, and I have to remember that it's not always bad when it happens with other people.

Yeah, I always feel yelled at. Even more so when swearing and other "anger" words start being used.

The other thing is that my version of losing it is saying really hurtful things that I've been keeping in because they're just not useful or productive in any way. I'm not interested in the fake violence & noise & hot air of the "fight" itself, I just want to win and have it be over with so I can AT LEAST have some peace and quiet. Usually I find myself thinking after 5 or 10 minutes that I would much rather just read my book somewhere else.

plus theres always make up sex.

No there isn't. And ain't that a vicious circle.

Sex is the LAST thing I want after a fight. I feel distant and hurt and unprotected and I don't want to be more vulnerable to that person until I've healed up a little.

yeah in all seriousness there has never really been any make-up sex at all in my relationship with my wife. Maybe when we were dating but not as a married couple. Hell we've been together almost 15 years.

Haha I'm so glad it's not just me. I always thought one of the benefits of an LTR would be making up/anger sex but I'm so not wired for it.

Yeah, I pretty much feel like the make-up sex thing only happens during the "honeymoon" phase of a relationship.

Argh, I'm tired and frustrated and checking my email every 15 minutes.

yeah really last thing i want after a fight is to have sex. and besides, we barely have sex anymore anyways...which is a whole thing onto itself. Mostly due to the fact that we have a 2 year old and have zero time for it. But it does present a problem...

"Make-up sex" is just what happens on TV progs.

"Terry and June" in particular.

yeah, i'm actually glad to see that make-up sex is not a "thing" for most people. because it's definitely not for me! actually, that's one of the bad parts of fighting... is realizing that sex is kinda off the table (for both partners) for at least a while.

as in, you're already upset about issue X, but even after X is resolved you're gonna have weirdness and discomfort and not be fully 'into' each other for a while.

I have absolutely no problem with going to bed angry. I know most consider making up before going to sleep essential, but I for one am not always in favour of making up, especially when you try to force it. Sometimes you just need a good night's rest. I usually wake up and realize how silly the argument was. Don't worry about it, J, fights are not bad per se. It's a great way to release some anger and frustration. And it doesn't mean that much at the end of the day (unless it's something ongoing). It's only as important as you make it.

I've been with my wife for 16 years, married for 9, and neither of us has ever once raised their voice at the other one, gone to bed angry, said hurtful things to each other, or any of the usual markers of "arguing".

We're both totally non confrontational and are way more likely to notice that the other one seems mad, ask them about it, hash out our issues, maybe cry a bit or something, and then feel better about everything afterward. I don't know if this is normal or not but it's worked for us and I can't imagine ever being angry with her about anything.

well, your name isn't angrygoat

My boyfriend would make a good old-fashioned wife who harangues everyone constantly with the best intentions but really just needs to learn to have an inner life, and I would be the husband who locks himself in his study after work and doesn't argue with the louder member of the family at the dinner table. Sadly we don't have room for a study in our Manhattan apartment. Or a dinner table.

i just think holding things in is trouble. after my wife gave birth and when she got home things changed a lot (obviously) and lots of anger came out of us that we'd been holding in for years. It was not a happy time, when it should have been. We almost divorced because of it. Then after seeing a counselor, we decided to let it rip when needed. Again we've had our ups and downs since but things are healthy and happy now.

even though she's a pain in my ass. ;)

that's awesome Chris, it makes me really happy to hear that.

not the pain in your ass bit, of course...but as a wife myself, I live to be the pain in my husband's ass. "It's what I do."

Laurel just described my parents succinctly and accurately.

haha vegemite thats exactly what my wife says to me! She is the Grand Champion Queen of ballbusting.

It's a talent.

Laurel just described my parents succinctly and accurately.

My apologies. :/

It frightens me how much my parents relationship bleeds into my interactions with my husband. Last night we almost had a big ridiculous row that stemmed 100% from my inability to assume that my husband knows what he's doing.
My Mum used to be all over my dad all the time because she just operated from the assumption that he was an idiot, she had him worn down to a nub. (They're a lot better now that all us kids have moved out of home, it's like night and day now).
But even though I love my husband to death and he's the smartest guy I know, it's like I'm genetically incapable of giving him the benefit of the doubt. And I don't even realize I'm doing it until I've done it.

Yeah, my wife and I have learned from counseling (both individually and couples) that our parents have fucked up our fighting so much.

i don't really have many complaints and i am v. non-confrontational anyway. my wife has more complaints (warranted or not) and is slightly more confrontational. neither of us have ever yelled or swore or belittled or anything like that.

our infrequent 'arguments' tend to take the form of her saying that i made her feel like shit, me shrugging and saying that i hadn't meant to and that she shouldn't anyway, rinse, repeat. there is rarely any resolution and certainly no makeup sex.

sometimes she storms off to bed and i learn later that i was supposed to come in and comfort her, which i find incomprehensible.

Yeah, my wife and I have learned from counseling (both individually and couples) that our parents have fucked up our fighting so much.

^^ haha, this is me too. i am deeply conditioned by rearing to minimize/rationalize my own frustrations. i can spend three days privately furious (and with a clear, internal, articulation of why i'm so irate) and my girlfriend will never know i am ready to blow, except that i am 'kind of grumpy.' eventually things'll just go back to normal, and i'll be a saddo for a bit.

Sigh. Yeah, I do that too

We both knew counseling was a good idea for us, it was something we agreed to do even before we got married. We were both coming from divorced families with histories of seriously fucked-up issues. Compared to the environments we grew up in and our childhood models of "marriage", we are doing amazingly well, but its still sad to go through these periods.

the marriage counselor told us that if you aren't arguing your relationship is not healthy.

i'd have a fairly sharp argument with the counselor right there myself, tbh

I think it certainly depends on the type, intensity, and frequency of the argument - but I would agree that some certain level of disagreement/venting of frustrations is healthy. Nearly all of the relationships of people I've known that have described them as "we never ever argue" have ended in flames, mostly because one of the partners acquiesces constantly and it eventually leads to a humongous flare-up.

if you're avoiding arguments, your relationship isn't healthy, sure. not quite the same thing though imo

my parents never fought, then my dad starting banging 20 year olds and they divored.

oh sorry Drapin 20 year olds.

lol, that's a much creepier use of the term.

draped over a chair

hell he lived that lifestyle at the time...

I used to worry about my relationship for similar reasons to the OP, just worrying that never fighting was possibly secretly a bad thing. These worries have since abated, shortly after we started having arguments.

Not fighting was not bad at all but it's not like the occasional argument has fucked up our relationship. I would like to say the arguments are usually for good reasons but in fact they're usually due to me acting like an ass.

arguments now are typically about money, spending time with family rather than going to watch football at a bar with my friends...etc. I can see her point about the football thing, but thats just too bad. And we've reached an agreement on that, i get to go watch football she gets to go get a mani/pedi.

the 'football argument' is such a cliche, but i mean it's impossible to avoid. short of getting a gf who'll read during it, or actively enjoys laughing at your pain and despair.

if only i could somehow throw in some 25 yr olds into the mix....

We're arguing about having kids; we both wanted to, now he doesn't want to, I'm not in a position to wait. Actually I'm not sure it's even arguing, even though it always ends in tears (mine) and him stomping off to smoke a cigarette he really shouldn't be smoking (impending operation).

I hate arguing but do like to talk things out. He hates talking things out and prefers to jump straight to anger, immediately followed by sulking. There has never, ever been any make-up sex, even though at times I think I would be ok with it, but sex is off the table anyway - which certainly contributes to me being anxious and lachrymose and pitching headfirst into these unpleasant discussions.

Uh... TMI, probably.

sulking makes me angry. he needs to grow a pair of BALLZ.

no tmi there at all imo

sulking and jumping straight into anger, eh don't want to lash into dude or anything but chris otm

sometimes she storms off to bed and i learn later that i was supposed to come in and comfort her, which i find incomprehensible.

I'm with her on that one. Sometimes fighting can leave you feeling drained, scared and miserable in a way that only a cuddle will fix, but you don't feel like you can ask for one. It's dumb but then emotions are dumb.

but i know the arguments about having children. my experience is well documented here somewhere, although we never argued about it until now. We have one (after 4 years of work) and my wife now wants another (I dont)...due to the fact that my wife ended up with post partum psychosis after our first. I dont want to go through that again, and she knows that. Granted we now know that she is around 50% chance of it happening again and would be put on meds immediately after birth. But the first time was hard enough on us all and I can't bear the thought of seeing her like that. Maybe im selfish.

sulking is for 13 year olds.

'Prefer' was an unfair & embittered word choice. I don't think he can help it, he just has no toolkit (ballz if you prefer) for dealing w/ arguments.

It's dumb but then emotions are dumb.

This, really.

Anger as a first response is so yesterday. I could really really do without it.

That's a tough situation, Chris. And surfing: I know a couple of friends who have been through similar (one spouse wanting a child, the other resisting)...no real sage advice here, I just know what a fraught deal that is, and how emotionally hard it is, and, you know, just, hugs.

The football thing worked out well for me & mr Veg. I like football more than he does, actually. He watches the Raider games with me or we go to the games together, and then I spend the rest of Sunday planted in front of the TV watching the other games, and he dinks around with fantasy football on his computer and wanders in and out. We're kind of lucky there.

send your partners to grad school! then you'll have all the time you need to do your own shit!

ha direct hit on me?

We have a perfectly workable football schedule: he watches my team with me whenever it's on no matter what else might be happening, and I read or use the 2nd tv while Bundesliga is on, which is all of Sat and Sunday mornings. Our only problem is that I like to go to a bar with other fans sometimes, which he's extremely negative about -- but then he doesn't understand that until pretty recently, going to a bar with satellite packages was almost THE ONLY way to watch soccer in the US, so we're used to it.

Sadly, due to malfunction our former 2nd tv is now the 1st (and only) tv, but as long as he calls me in for the Mirko Slomka interviews, I don't rly mind.

my wife only likes it for two seconds...and only when they show Tom Brady.

the last time i actually sulked was about 4 years ago, my gf refused to stop ogling the chilean subs warming up in front of us during an international.

tbh I am pro-SO-ogling-others because it usually leads to aggressive demands for sexing when we get home

and THAT, my friends, is TMI

oh yeah i'm totally over the ogling thing. especially if it gets football on tv.

tmi is not 'sex when we get home' tmi is graphic description and/or performed recreation of the noises

for a second i thought you were talking about chilean sandwiches.

good thing we disabled the ILX webcam option, then

The only problem with sulking is that, while it does keep said partner out of your hair for a while, if you so much as SUGGEST that the person is maybe potentially sulking just a little bit, they are liable to get really defensive/mad at u. Chill out, you giant baby.

I say: Sulk if you want, you don't even have to apologize at the end, just come give me a pat or something and I'll know you feel like resuming normal operations. But for the love of god, do it quietly.

xp to chris- man ur just askin for me to run into a 'my gf's so fat' joke

laurel otm, under no circumstances accuse someone who's sulking of sulking, partic if they are male

yeah i was lining that up but....i wanted to be nice.

I'm prone to sulking (giant baby, reporting for duty). Mr Veg has mad skillz in this area, because he will ridicule me *just* enough for sulking that I laugh, but never enough so that I spaz out...or he just nudges me a little and then I bring it in for a hug anyway, because he's cool and sulking really isn't very fun.

Question: when your partner says something 100% ludicrous in a fight, do you laugh? I teeter between "THAT WAY LIES MADNESS" and "How else could I possibly indicate the depths of ludicrousness we have now sunk to?" like sometimes if you DON'T laugh, you're dignifying a wild accusation?

hmmm...i usually say something ludicrous right back. Then i bust out a rap..."how you aint gonna fuck, bitch im me. Im the godamn reason you in VIP".

i'd imagine i'd laugh, but tbh it's not come up.

I go ahead and laugh, and make everything worse.

Instead of laughing I will just give up and walk away. I can only take so many ridiculous tactics in an argument.

I'm at the "I give up" phase.

When I'm *really* an idiot and unable to see how badly things will escalate, I smirk. xpost

Walking away is my MO also, except my husband hates it and interprets it as 'stomping off' and it inevitably leads to a lovely period of silence on both sides.

im a smirker.

My wife refuses to let me walk away, even for a few minutes to gather myself. She takes that very personally, which can be frustrating since, tbh, sometimes I need those few minutes alone to come to my sense and stop acting like a jackass before I escalate things.

Silence wd be golden, mine comes and GETS me in the other room where I have closed the door, and continues his rant, even ratchets it up a bit. I would like to do what someone suggested above and be able to give a time that I'd be willing to re-address the problem, but that would depend on my partner calming down and only he can determine that. Also, "I'm not talking about this until you've calmed down" is throwing nitroglycerin on the bbq tbh.

My husband does the "Oh please" when I escalate. Which doesn't always go over well.

i've also done the crack open a beer and take a swig...which really seems to go over well.

I always say whatever she just said back to her verbatim in a high voice. Sometimes I'll throw a few "meow meow meow"s in there.

my wife would attack.

Oh Mr Veg has done the meow thing to me (I believe alcohol was involved at the time)...it only happened once, lol

I would not be alive today had it ever occurred to me to meow at my wife during an argument

my gf and i have an agreement to do a jack lalane eyebrows motion when things are suddenly starting to get too serious... that way, we can set the argument aside and come back when things are less heated.

that's pretty cool. I tend to remove myself if I feel myself getting too out of control. I usually try to talk it out later once I've calmed down, at least try to explain myself better. I find in arguments I'm really ruled by my emotions and I don't think ahead through the conversation, I say impulsive horrible things and am just kind of a dick. I think my marriage would be a pile of ashes if it wasn't for Mr Veg being a more stoic type who tends not to lash out. He'll fly off the handle every now and again but if both of us were as emotional as I am, we'd be so screwed.

Chris, I just properly took in what you posted, and... ouch. I'm pretty sure that's not selfish. It's definitely one of those no-right-answer situations. Good luck working through it, and stranger-on-the-internet hugs to you both.

Thanks for same, Veg. I have been through this once already and really didn't think I'd be facing it over again with this chap, who was all about the having kids when we got together.

Laughing in an argument, erhngh, if I was actually angry and someone laughed at me I'd probably respond with violence. Ditto meowing. If the argument's not that serious, go for it.

My wife and I said a lot of horrible things to one another when we were in our miserable place after she gave birth. Lots of accusatory, hurtful and downright nasty things. And most of them were said by me in a complete state of rage (which my counselor said i had been holding in since my father cheated on my mother and it was anger directed at my father that i took out on my sick wife.) I can never take back the things I said to her during those times and she'll never forget them unfortunately. Of course this all came out over a delusion that she had an emotional affair with an ex. Needless to say that wasn't true. But I lost my mind.

Damn Chris, that's a lot to go through. I'm really glad that you and your wife have found a way to stay together, in spite of all of that. You can't undo the bad stuff, but you can build up a good supply of new good things to correct the imbalance.

Surfing, this is your second time round with this? Damn. Well, you can supersize those hugs.

I intimated to in-laws and friends' inquiries pretty early on in our marriage that I wasn't much for having kids...and my husband was never pushing for it either, I think he enjoys being able to do his own thing, and he is amused by his friends struggles with scheduling bc of small children. My problem is that for some reason I'm afraid to talk about it any further. I am paranoid that he'll think the marriage was a waste of time if we're not having kids, like what's the point of all this then...I have no factual basis for going there in my mind, but I'm too chickenshit to bring it up for fear that it might come true.

Oy. I've never said that aloud to anyone before. Written down, I'm a nut.

yep, hell and back all of this with a month old kid. Our relationship has never been better now. But THAT SUCKED.

but you can see my point with having a second kid and my argument against it. I can only imagine what delusion she'll have this time! Plus that was on top of her delusions that she solved lost!

My wife and I said a lot of horrible things to one another when we were in our miserable place after she gave birth. Lots of accusatory, hurtful and downright nasty things. ... I can never take back the things I said to her during those times and she'll never forget them unfortunately.

I'm super sorry to hear this. We are kinda in a similar but less serious place, in that there's no PPD or new baby involved, but he has def said stuff to me that he can never take back and I will never forget even though he "didn't mean it", and I have had to NOT take the view that it makes him a certain KIND of person (the kind who would say that). He's the same person he was before, and he's CAPABLE of being seriously cruel, but you can't go on once you've cast the other person as a "type".

That's about the only truth bomb I've got so far.

I can see your point, Chris. I'm really hesitant to offer any opinions, but I empathise like hell.

Veg you don't seem like a nut to me. It's a reasonable fear, but ultimately it's up to him to tell you if he's not happy, no?

xpost

it was two years ago, but it still stings. I apologize silently to her every day after apologizing for almost a year.. i am full of truth bombs.

I'm throwing down some hugs for you too, Chris. Supersize as need be.

...but you can't go on once you've cast the other person as a "type".

Ai. That has the sting of truth.

i don't think anyone can make such broad statements as 'some arguing is healthy for a relationship' or 'a relationship without arguments is the best' - it totally depends on the personalities involved.

i absolutely cannot stand any kind of fighting (where fighting is defined as raised voices, insults of any variety), probably bc of the cliched thing that i came from a family where there was some extreme domestic abuse.

my husband and i never fight - we might disagree on something, but we never 'argue' - and it's not bc either of us are avoiding it or bc we don't have a 'passionate' relationship (lol @ ppl using that as a reason for why they fight so much), we are just a great match in a whole bunch of ways, and one of those is that neither of us wanted a relationship where fighting would occur.

if you're avoiding arguments, your relationship isn't healthy, sure. not quite the same thing though imo

Yes, but I agree with the therapist. You can't agree ALL of the time. You are not the same person (with the same ideas, desires,...) so in the long run you are bound to clash. Then it's time to lay it on the table. I find it very unhealthy to keep things cooking inside. You need to confront your partner and yourself. It will happen one day. Maybe it wont be as frequent as some, but you will clash eventually.

My wife and I said a lot of horrible things to one another when we were in our miserable place after she gave birth. Lots of accusatory, hurtful and downright nasty things. ... I can never take back the things I said to her during those times and she'll never forget them unfortunately.

Having a kid (or more) really brings out the worst at times. You are tired, cranky,... and you hit out to the person you love most. We did that too, Chris, but I realize that, in fights, you tend to throw out the worst. They wouldn't be nasty fights otherwise. Forgive (but not forget, that's impossible). I mean, shit, a fight is not about giving compliments, right? :-) I know you're hurting because of it, but I know for sure it has made our (my husband and I) relationship stronger. It taught me that I can be nasty and I can be a horrible person.

Also, C, with the second kid we didn't fight that much anymore. You know what to expect: being tired as hell and cranky and whatnot. :-)

in the past i've slapped my boyfriend. but he knows it's only my childish attempt at impersonating old-school movie actresses in distress, and doesn't hate me for it. he's only slapped me once, when i was hysterical, going for the slap-the-crazy-woman bit. it kind of worked.

― Surmounter

Hot

Harking back to last night...

Veg you don't seem like a nut to me. It's a reasonable fear, but ultimately it's up to him to tell you if he's not happy, no?

Veg, I really want to clarify that by 'reasonable' I don't mean 'justified', more 'understandable'. The last thing I want to do is feed your worries, which, since you say there's no factual basis for them, are most likely unfounded.

I have to agree with Nathalie's response to Laurel. I mean, maybe there are couples who go through life without ever hitting a conflict they can't resolve calmly, but I thought my relationship with my ex-husband would be one of those, and guess what, it wasn't. After ten years of not fighting, we hit something we couldn't agree on, something so emotive that neither of us could deal with it properly. In my case I was simply too afraid of rocking the boat to express the true depth of my feelings. Holding them back completely fucked me up and destroyed our marriage.

YMMV of course. I hope *nobody* else goes through anything similar, and the non-fighters among you continue to not fight and never hit a bump in the road big enough to roll you over, but I can see looking back that there are some things you can only admit when you're angry, and knowing how to deal with conflict and anger in a relationship is a pretty damned useful trick.

yeah things are in a truly good place now.

I think the reason my most-fucked-up relationship ended up where it did was because we couldn't come up with a reasonable end to arguments. I'm not really well suited for full blown, swearing at each other arguments, and she pretty much jumped right to that half the time. Also, the storming off thing only works if a.) you don't attempt to get the last word and then immediately storm off b.) you continue yelling insults through the door or threaten to harm yourself.

uuuuugh.

So what I'm trying to say is, there's a continuum of acceptable normal. Nothing that happened in my example there appears on it.

What kills me is that my partner can rant for 15 mins and then sulk for 15 mins and then be fine. Whereas I am now ragged with tension & badness & sorry I ever came home from work. We really need to deal w this discrepancy in how we process conflict; also he needs to de-stress and stop bringing work home, but circumstances are rly, rly bad and holding the line where it is, is about the best we can do right now.

well, i dunno laurelita, it will change in small degrees, but expecting to remedy this "discrepancy in how we process conflict" is a seriously tall order

imo you can either learn to deal with the differences (likely) or (alternately) continue to butt heads at a gallop (less desirable), but this is sort of how you each are. not gonna change that much.

please note that i am a ranter, not a simmerer, and i live with a simmerer.

Do you feel better after a rant? Or would it be more accurate to say that you just feel worse before it?

yes, i do
holding it in feels way way worse, and i'm not mean (really, i'm not), but i am direct

Laurel, it's not totally selfish if you let out some of what's eating at you. You can still be in control of what you say to him, and the way you say it, and if you're really worried about being 'that' person, then get it out there in a way that you're okay with. And remember too, in general a long-term relationship isn't just two people bonded by a living space...there's connectedness there, and you can actually help each other by knowing what's on your mind, especially if it's negative. It's scary because you don't know what's going to happen, I know...but it doesn't necessarily have to be bad and awful. You know?
I don't know if that's helpful, since I don't know your relationship with your guy, but sometimes it's way worse in your head than it is when it's out in the open.

Lechera's totally otm -- holding it in feels way worse

one of my friends is in a horrendous marriage...his wife takes advantage of him constantly and all they do is scream at one another. at this point its basically a loveless marriage and they are only together because of their daughter. He recently ended up hospitalized because of stress and anxiety...he just needs to leave. When he does yell at her he looks like Grover from SS when he spazzs.

Laurel, you just need to dtmfa because he doesn't seem to respect that you process... life... differently (and in a more functional manner imo) and he doesn't respect your ability to define your space in the relationship. Frankly, you've seemed like an active person with a lot of cool interests, and if he's trying to shut those out and disconnect you, that's unacceptable.

uh, wtf, zing touch wrongposted that to this thread

Hah!

Yeah I know all that and if I were more ruthless I could end it and move on, but a) logistically it's incredibly difficult to do that w/o sacrifices I'm not willing to make right now, and b) I think there IS something worthwhile in the rel'ship, if we can change course. Now, I don't know if he/we can. But getting my own way all or most of the time may have been one of my favorite things about single-ness and honestly I don't know that that is a good thing to build a life on. I am willing to keep trying to make something out of other materials. For now.

But getting my own way all or most of the time may have been one of my favorite things about single-ness and honestly I don't know that that is a good thing to build a life on.

depends on what your own way is, i suppose. but there are different ways to not get things your own way, and your current situation doesn't seem like one of the better ones?

also, not seeing laurel = me not getting my way *frowny emoticon*

I spent 2 years with a guy who I had a really dysfunctional toxic relationship with. He was an alcoholic, and really emotionally manipulative. I was only 20 so I had no idea how to counter it well, so I would spend time thinking on "pros and cons" trying to convince myself that the bad times were ok because the good times were awesome.

This worked until the balance shifted very hard in favour of the bad times. At that point I realised I had to concede defeat and gtfo for my own sanity (and possibly safety). It is really not an easy thing to do, and you have all my understanding, L.

one thing to be careful of ime: when the fighting and horrible times get really bad, the 'good' times (i.e. what should really just be considered normal-happy-times) start to seem ecstatically awesome, bc they're such a relief. so then you can convince yourself that you have this 'amazing' relationship outside of all those awful fights.

that is v, v otm

*nods* yeah. :/

I actually wrote a poem once about the calm moments in a violent relationship and how we cling to that. I wont LJ you all by posting it here tho, heh.

If you wanted to share it I think we would be cool with it, Trayce (well, I would, anyway)...I mean, frakkin *Jewel* published a whole book of her poems, so...

Well ok, um, its online anyway, and I'm pretty happy with it.

Horse latitudes, n; Belts of northern and southern latitudes lying between the region of westerly winds and the region of the trade winds, marked by baffling light winds and occasional calms. (Macquarie Dictionary)

We are caught here
Between violence and violence.
This is the place of quiescence.
Can you feel the rare calm,
The air on your face?
Take a breath in the stillness.
It is necessary breath,
Oxygen to prepare for the fight.
I knot my fists without knowing.
I have four half-moons
On each palm.
Fortune tellers love me.
Feel it, this vase, those books;
Fill your memory with furniture.
I hold heavy things, immovables;
Remind myself with weight.
I must remember this still place,
In the absence of maps.

I was really into Sexton and Plath when I wrote it so keep that in mind haha.

that's really nice

Thanks :)

Yeah, Trayce...that's pretty great. "Fill your memory with furniture." I like that.

Thread now officially elevated. Pomes!

It was one of those rare times I spew out a poem and it works well, haha. Wish it still happened. I love the "four half moons on my palms/fortune tellers love me" lines.

But yeah to get back to the topic the idea was that we hang onto the basics surrounding us; our furniture, our routines, our familiarities, to keep us sane in the face of tumult.

Yeah, and when you lose those things, coping with challenges becomes incredibly difficult.

Good thread, but the poem.

Well, I'm sorry! I never claimed to be some kind of great poet.

I've been married for 26 years now. Here's how it has been with us. We are mainly very compatible. For the first few years of courtship, we had many strong disagreements, but made adjustments and decided to marry. For several years after our marriage, we rarely fought and basically submerged any minor disagreements.

After our daughter was born (see the thread:Aimless! This is your life!) the tendency to submerge disagreements became more critical, as we needed one another too much to allow irritants to interfere.

After a number of years of crisis, and its eventual subsidance, those irritants and disagreements we had submerged began to re-emerge with new vitality. We worked out (painfully) as many as we could, until we finally had arrived at a set of indissoluable clashes; basic things we just had no way to resolve.

At that point we had to determine if we could live with those irritants for the rest of our lives, knowing they would never go away. We decided to stay together. The upside of staying together was far greater than the downside. That residue of minor problems we cannot resolve still drives us up a wall sometimes, but we understand our position, and we let it go as soon as we can.

It works. For us. YMMV.

Aimless, thats a genuine sense of relationship maturity I dont see all that often in people (especially younger people). Everyone's too ready to cut and run when things go to shit, these days. I have so much admiration for you and your family.

People do the best they know how. It helps to have good models to pattern after. My parents and her parents were pretty good models -- not perfect by any means, but pretty good.

Em's starting a new job on Monday and various things about her last job and general state of mind have made her very anxious about it; "what if I can't do this new job?" questions. (She can; she's brilliant.)

Anyway, these anxieties spilled over on Tuesday night into high drama about baking cookies to take in on her last day (Weds). Voices were raised, I yelled, she raised her hands as if to grab my wrists, I stormed out and got it in the car. & drove to sainsburys & bought new eggs & chocolate & came back & talked her down out of bed & we made the cookies together & it was great.

I don't really do arguing. Except about silly things like records & films on the internet. We disagree sometimes but mostly we've grown together so much over 9 years that we either agree on most things or else know how to sort it out amicably now. We separated for 6 months about 6/7 years ago, but now we're married, so you know.

When I was talking Em down to bake on Tuesday she said "I don't get to have you be nice to me after I was nasty to you" and I told her she did because we were adults & married. And because I really wanted a fucking cookie after all that fuss.

I know the baking cookies episode was prob rly unpleasant to be in, but in retelling it has a certain climatic appeal. I guess that's only cos it ended well, though.

THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY CINEMATIC. Fucking phone thinks it knows better than I do.

Maybe Nick *really* likes cookies? Lol

I'd totally forgotten that I'd started this thread!

Em doesn't like me listening to The Beatles.

;_;

Don't tell Whiney

reminder to oneself: dont get drunk at a three year olds birthday party and accuse your wife of giving her boss a bj.

yeah, that's worth an iCal reminder at the very least

Oh dude...

thats called i ate nothing all day and pounded beer all afternoon.

Once/if you have kids, the entire dynamic of arguments shifts, and is also exacerbated by new stress: lack of sleep, lack of money, lack of time, lack of space, lack of privacy, etc. Fighting/conflict is inevitable, but as long as you keep it to a minimum in public, where potential humiliation/resentment is amplified, things tend to work themselves out at home. You just need to take a break once in a while to see a movie or something on your own, and also to realize how petty/insignificant 99% of arguments actually are. I'd suggest if the same argument keeps occurring, with increased frequency and/or anger, then that does imply significance, or at least something that can't be swept under the rug and therefore must be confronted, ideally under neutral circumstances. But again, once you have kids, once some other (innocent) person's well-being is at stake, a little bit of perspective goes a long way.

thats called i ate nothing all day and pounded beer all afternoon.

That's called "Sunday" at my house. Well, I'm exaggerating. But it used to happen when he started drinking and thinking about going back to work at a place where they treat him horribly, because we need the paycheck.

We drink less now. Also he might get a new job soon.

that used to happen with us too as i drank wednesday through sunday when i was in a miserable job. then i got laid off. now i barely drink.

And because I really wanted a fucking cookie after all that fuss.

fantastic closing sentence -- I lol'd

I actually used some of what's been talked about on this thread to take a potential argument and turn it into a conversation. My husband has a long-standing friend, and whenever we go to a concert or an event together, she and he do all this planning without me...and then she sends emails asking about things they've already planned and I reply and end up looking like a moron bc my husband hasn't told me what's up.

Whatever. So that all happened last week because of a concert we were going to together (and with a bunch of other people) to this weekend. and he and I went out for dinner on Fridat

Ugh. Stupid phone.

So he and I were at dinner Friday night and I brought up what I thought the plan was for Saturday, and he says no, something else entirely new. And I started to escalate, to the point where it's stony silence with me looking off, trying not to cry. Then I thought, fuck it, just tell him why this upsets you. Talk, don't shut it down.

And we talked. I told him I'm not a planning junkie, I just like to know what's going on if we are going somewhere, bc it makes me nervous if I feel like were winging it. And its not a trust thing. And he told me that she gets out of control with planning and he works on her constantly to get her to not spin her wheels, and to keep things simple. And if she does email about stuff, it's never definite and it's easier if he has the job of "working her". She is kind of nuts so this made perfect sense to me.

And more importantly, we had a nice evening!

Sorry for all the boring minutiae, just wanted to share a good thing ;)

That is a good thing :D I'd be frustrated too if my other half was planning stuff with someone else and not keeping me in the loop on it!

.

v. cool -- you are all grown up!

the main thing, for me i guess, is to not become solipsistic. sometimes i get my brain into situations where i'm stuck thinking only of my (very narrowest) self. i feel like i'm pretty rational and pretty reasonable -- i don't yell and curse and whatever -- but sometimes i lose sight of the larger picture whilst stuck in my own preoccupations, which may or may not be relevant.

and, um, i am familiar with drinking a great deal (eg right now), but it has never occurred to me to accuse anyone of blowing their boss?

I'm also familiar with drinking a great deal, enough so that I don't need an explanation for the crazy shit that comes out of people's mouths when they're drunk enough to end up in a weird place emotionally. I understand it.

nah, she is constantly travelling for work which leaves me questioning things...as she always travels with her boss. I've had trust issues most of my life and when i drink they tend to come out. Needless to say, i can trust her fully but i go off on rants.

My husband gets pretty loose when he's drunk...though our run ins over that are usually just me getting him to stop (I have this thing where I can't drink when other people are already drunk, I sort of feel like I have to make sure nothing happens...maybe comes from being a Duty Resident in college wrangling drunk freshmen I guess)...most memorable time was at his 40th when he told his elderly Aunt to go fuck herself. Lesson we learned is: frozen margarita machines seem like a good idea; actually a really, really baaaaaaad idea.

Man, what is it with this shit? When I get drunk I just want to dance and make out.

I know right? Me too! Actually my husband mostly usually wants to just listen to speed metal really loud or play Rock Band, then fall asleep on the couch, so more often than not he's pretty manageable, haha.

usually all i wanna do is play video games and listen to music. sometimes i just get crazy.

Maybe try dancing and making out next time? lol

i may.

pro tip: dance and/or make out with wife

Had an argument with my girlfriend yesterday, then she told me she wanted to fight with me on purpose and that she was kind of trying to provoke me into getting angry with her. I know some people like to fight but actually admitting that she was egging me on pissed me off a bit, especially as she knew I'd had a particularly busy day at work and I had a thumping headache. Now I don't know if I'm over-reacting. I'm the type of person who blames myself for things that aren't my fault. I'm also a bit worried that other arguments we've had have been constructed by her because she seems to get a kick out of it, which is pretty annoying because she's always going on about how we should make the most of the time we have together.