People who get a university degree and then go on to spend the rest of their lives working as office temps or video store employees or whatever

in first with 'lol ilx'

yeah, pretty much

(shoots self)

In first with a shout for John Doran

At least we had lots of random sex and wild student parties while others our age were already working.

keepin' it positive

less of the "we"

Keepin' it positive week is on ILM

xp

Damn, and I just told my therapist that I wasn't suicidal.

http://radioactiveliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/nasrallah-death-to-america.jpg

So someone who, I DON'T KNOW, flunked out of college in three semesters and just got a menial job and never bothered going back to school would be placed how far above the lowest of the low? (lol my life etc)

<D_<D

http://madmikey.mu.nu/archives/Death%20to%20America.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/dhonig2/DeathtoAmerica383.jpg

Dom's running low on stereotypes to ridicule.

No, but seriously. A lot of the time these are lower middle class types who went to uni because clearly working a low-end service/clerical job was beneath them at 16, and so they take up a spot that could have gone to a more deserving candidate from a less priveleged background, raise the taxes of every manjack in the country, piss five/six years of their life up the wall, and end up back in exactly the same fucking place as they started. Well done all involved.

Ummm...lower middle class types?

I think that might be me.
What about going to university for the sake of learning? It's not all about having a career ffs.

lol USA > Britain; USA = land of lolportunity

I have an MA and gave up on my PhD to look after the kids because Mrs. T (who did less than one term at university) earned about 3 times my wage. I don't think I've wasted anyone's time or money.

http://www.ece.vill.edu/~mobasser/arminssite/ChileApecStupidAmericans.jpg

You've got yr tory in my chavs! No, you've got yr chavs in my tory!

Also in 1984 when I started my high-flying academic career even a "low-end service/clerical job" would have been good.

What about going to university for the sake of learning? It's not all about having a career ffs.

That's not "pissing your life up the wall" then, is it

No, and that's not what I was taking issue with, it was the assumption that not ending up with a career better than what you started with was 'pissing your life up the wall'.

going down the ladder is progress now?

so they take up a spot that could have gone to a more deserving candidate from a less priveleged background

How much does this happen outside, say, Oxbridge and a handful of others?

Learning for learning's sake can be done at libraries, night schools, OU. Why have you got to take away opportunities from the down-priveleged?

tell us about some under-privileged people you know personally

this method can be quite difficult to pull off (xp)

where does Dom work again?

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/ii021302e.jpg

Why does Dom hate everyone?

Learning for learning's sake can be done at libraries, night schools, OU. Why have you got to take away opportunities from the down-priveleged?

This is batshit My First Book Of Class Signifiers nonsense, how do you know the place isn't being taken away from another listless middle-class undeserving shitbag rather than a virtuous worthy working class kid? If you wipe out learning for learning's sake you wipe out vast swathes of academia, it's a far cry from unmotivated middle class people going to university purely because their parents will pay and they can't think of anything else to do.

xp
Or at least, seem to dislike?
And why is he forever trying to shoehorn disparate groups of people into various pigeonholes?
I mean, WHY, DOM WHY?

Why does Dom hate everyone?

not everyone, only women and middle classes

i think back to when i was 16/17 and the period where i didn't want to go to university at all because the thought of having no cash was too depressing and am mortified.

Why does Dom hate everyone?

Dom hates Dom.

i went to university to have sex with tuomas

that is horrible

i have to say, this does drive my crazy. my friend went to a really, really, really expensive school. her dad shelled out tons of money on it. then what does she do? gets married and doesn't work. arrrrrgggggghhh! i know it's none of my business, but it bothered me to no end.

^basically this.

What was her degree in?

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Thersites

her degree was in psychology

hm metal gear solid ps3 bundle, thanks pinefox!

let's just ban rich parents

TS: universities as places where people go because they want to learn about stuff vs: institutions that exist to help working class people further themselves in the world.

...because it's so easy to just walk into a worthwhile and fruitful career the second you get your degree, isn't it?

i have to say, this does drive my crazy. my friend went to a really, really, really expensive school. her dad shelled out tons of money on it. then what does she do? gets married and doesn't work. arrrrrgggggghhh! i know it's none of my business, but it bothered me to no end.

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/files/bush-mission.jpg

psych degrees do little more than qualify you to be a housewife. i doubt many people go into it with the plan of not utilizing their education. shit happens that no one can predict, esp 17 yr olds.

FWIW I think these people are fine if they go on to pursue an interest in, say, theology that enriches the rest of their life. If they then forget everything they learnt over three years and go on to leading a completely uninspired life tapping away on ILX staring at the wall then yes Dom's original post is OTM.

wait wait wait

are there actually universities out there looking at applications and thinking "gee, we'd love to take this non lower middle class applicant, but we simply have too many proper lower middle class kids who want to come here and waste 3/4 years on philosophy/history/english/arts degrees just so they can spend the rest of their 20s being a sponge" ‽

here I thought these sorts of things were decided on, y'know, academic performance and capabilities

I've said this before, but:

Raise the minimum age for being allowed to go to university to 25.

Most 16-17 year olds don't know what the hell they want to do with their lives and it's stupid forcing them to make career decisions at that stage. Go out, earn a living, learn a bit about the world then when you're ready and mature enough, go for the tertiary thing and see where it takes you.

psych degrees do little more than qualify you to be a housewife. i doubt many people go into it with the plan of not utilizing their education. shit happens that no one can predict, esp 17 yr olds.

-- Granny Dainger, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

i know what you mean but any undergrad degree, especially depending on where you go, does a LOT more than qualify you to be a housewife. so in that sense, this is kind of BS.

Marcello that's a bit harsh on people who want to go out and becomes doctors or architects.

Another way to look at that, Surmounter, is that maybe you need to raise your estimation of housewives.

Not to mention the non-university educated working class people whose jobs are being taken by 18-24 years olds farting around waiting to go to college.

Raise the minimum age for being allowed to go to university to 25.

Most 16-17 year olds don't know what the hell they want to do with their lives and it's stupid forcing them to make career decisions at that stage. Go out, earn a living, learn a bit about the world then when you're ready and mature enough, go for the tertiary thing and see where it takes you.

-- Dingbod Kesterson, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:45 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

lots of truth to this

STUPIO AMERICANS

Wow or we could just not judge what people did with their time at university. Who's projecting in here!

lol, i know someone who wanted to be an architect, and then just as she finished that degree decided she wanted to be a doctor.

i kind of agree w/marcello's basic point but would not be so draconian about it

Another way to look at that, Surmounter, is that maybe you need to raise your estimation of housewives.

-- Laurel, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:49 PM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

i have a lot of respect for housewives. a LOT. but i don't thnk you need to spend 200k on an education to become one.

ok fine. they qualify you to be an office worker or video store clerk.

There's always medical school. It would do a lot of would-be doctors good to get practical experience before learning the theoretics.

incidentally the only time in my life i've had enough time to post to ilx as much as some people in this thread do, is when i was an office temp, so...libcrypt otm

not enough shitty jobs for all those 18yr olds untrained and inexperienced but and with straight As to do in absence of higher education cushion

stupio americans girl is pretty hot tbf

I just don't think 17 or 18 year olds are ready for university education. Once they've reached 25 they can think more soberly about whether they really want to pursue it and what it's going to do for them in terms of career or anything else rather than just robotically rush into it because hey that's what everyone does.

what about people who get a university degree and then go to spend their lives writing interweb record reviews and being misanthropic creeps on message boards? they're a real boon to society

It would do a lot of would-be doctors good to get practical experience before learning the theoretics.

^^^ conspiracy to bring down the NHS.

yeah, i had NO idea what i wanted to do. in retrospect i feel angry about it, because i certainly didn't make the most of my education.

wait, isnt this everyone who didnt do a law or medical degree?

Whoah okay a liberal arts education does not have to cost $200,000. Maybe your friend's did, but mine at a private school sure as hell didn't.

And since a liberal arts degree in anything but a hard science is pretty much just for enriching your life (and showing future universities/employers that you passed the "I can write a paper and parrot information" test of graduating from college) and you still have to go to post-grad for anything professional, I suspect undergrad IS for housewives and people who'll do stuff not directly related to their degrees.

xp sunny OTM!

(I had the impression that psychologists/therapists/counsellors do just have psych degrees? Am I off?)

million xposts

(They have to have at least a master's degree if not a doctorate, though, so that means years and years more school after your first 4 years. Plus since psychiatrists prescribe medicine I think they have to be medical doctors actually.)

but i AM talking about my friend, in particular. and her family DID spend that much money on it. maybe another kind of undergrad experience wouldn't be much more than an enriching experience. but if you make the decision to expend resources like that on an undergraduate education, it seems to me like you should plan to make something more of it than being a housewife.

People who get a university degree and then go on to spend the rest of their lives working as office temps or video store employeeswaitresses or whatever

this could be me :/

(Yeah, I was talking about psychologists and counsellors not psychiatrists, who definitely need medical training.)

i get your point ramzi, but if her dad had the money to burn - and it sounds like he did - then it doesn't really matter, right?

to be a therapist you dont need any degree, just a sign on the door. to be a certifed psychologist youre looking at 6 years. i personally only made it to 4 and that was boring enough.
makes more sense to medicene then psychiatry

you're right, it's a personal grievance and like i said, it's none of my business. but the fact is, i was bothered by it.

that's not how i was raised to value money.

i know what you mean but any undergrad degree, especially depending on where you go, does a LOT more than qualify you to be a housewife. so in that sense, this is kind of BS.

"kind of"

I just don't think 17 or 18 year olds are ready for university education. Once they've reached 25 they can think more soberly about whether they really want to pursue it and what it's going to do for them in terms of career or anything else

OK get a 17 or 18 year old into a job where they make comfortable living wage with opportunity for advancement and ask them in 8 years if they want to go to college. They won't, and they'll have the same level of maturity in their thinking that they did when they finished high school, pretty much for the rest of their lives.

Give a 17 or 18 year old a dead end job and tell them they have to wait 8 years to go to college and they'll be dying to go, and do exactly the same once they get there that they were going to do at 17 or 18.

Basically whether you planned it or not you leave college a different person than when you went in and it's usually for the better. Go spend some time with people in any industry dominated by high school graduates and see what you think.

but if you make the decision to expend resources like that on an undergraduate education, it seems to me like you should plan to make something more of it than being a housewife

do you think she planned to be a housewife before her dad spent that 200k on her education? or even if she had, would it really have been feasible for her to refuse that $$ on that basis?

i did two years at uni, straight out of hs, failed 10/12 classes. dropped out, went to work, then re-enrolled when i was 24... and i STILL dicked around so much that an undergrad degree which should have taken less than 3yrs ended up taking me 4yrs + one semester. and now here i am, jobless in a foreign country, with fairly dim prospects.

i do think she did plan that, yes. and i do think it would have been feasible for her to be honest with her family and say that she didn't plan to use her degree. in that case, she could have gone somewhere else, and saved her family a lot of work and energy.

my parents would be so, so, so upset if i didn't plan to make use of my degree, which was NOT cheap.

several xposts
Y'know, when you've got no money to buy a car or get a house anywhere near a decent place of work and no industry contacts and fuck all experience in that chosen industry despite the fact that every job advertised requires you to have at least three years in a similar role even though the job title is "Office Sub-Junior Toilet Scrubber" and the only alternative is to spend £40 a day shimmying up to the capital on a £100 a week, 10-hour day, 8-month internship, then yeah I think being called the "lowest of the low" is a nice hard kick in the cranium don't ya think?

i think marcello's right in that going straight from school to university can be a huge shock to the system - esp for those schoolkids who are less worldly-wise - and few are really emotionally equipped to deal with it all that well. 8 years is much too long to spend pootling around doing nothing before getting into further education but i don't think anyone would be hurt by taking a gap year or two after high school.

i knew what i wanted to do by the time i fucked my a-levels.

ways to have achieved it:

1) somehow become a runner at a relevant employer and go from there (think this is quite difficult as runners and the like are selected for all kinds of reasons often unfair inc nepotism or based on some warped value system of 'wanting it the most' rather than actual talent)

2) become office drone at non-relevant company, learn tools and techniques at home off my own back and money earned to then apply for relevant jobs and hope i'm good enough to break in. admirable DIY spirit but no backing/support from gov seems a bit harsh.

3) go to university, pay the fees, work part time to support self further, learn the tools and techniques as provided by the system, graduate and apply for relevant jobs with greater confidence in own abilities and the system generally (except for the bit where i went on the dole for 6 months while trying to get relevant job)

chose 3 and am thankful all things considered - not doing what i wanted to do 12 years ago (game designer!) but feel that was my choice rather than being denied

Most 16-17 year olds don't know what the hell they want to do with their lives and it's stupid forcing them to make career decisions at that stage. Go out, earn a living, learn a bit about the world then when you're ready and mature enough, go for the tertiary thing and see where it takes you.

This is OTM. My degree has got me more or less nowhere as it's simply not vocational enough. At 17 I chose my degree based on what I was good at at school (English Language/Linguistics). Ten years later it's a struggle to get into any of the industries I'm interested in so I'm still a jobsworth with ridiculous debt and can't afford to go and do a course in something I really want to do.

wait does dom = stickman or mpx4a? i presume the other is enrique?

Basically whether you planned it or not you leave college a different person than when you went in and it's usually for the better. Go spend some time with people in any industry dominated by high school graduates and see what you think.

-- call all destroyer, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:01 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i dont know about this. i think college broke me in a lot of ways. spiritually and mentally.

I'm unhappy with the scathing tone used for 'housewives' here. It's essentially what I am and it's really quite hard.

You know, only the (cough, cough) lower classes think that education = job training.

Dom, PO'd that you missed that uni spot? Oh, what great potential wasted.

i don't think the only way to utilise your degree-learning is through discharging it in a job. if someone learns psychology and it enriches their understanding of just, you know, things?, life?, families?, the human condition and all, then that's cool too. you're not a write off if you aren't making as much money as your fellow alumni.

also, delaying students hitting uni/postponing specialisation til they're a little older is probably a good idea.

I'm unhappy with the scathing tone used for 'housewives' here. It's essentially what I am and it's really quite hard.

right. and while i wouldn't want to conflate housewife and mother, the crossover probably has some bearing on how one utilises stuff they've learnt, what they pass on, etc.

I'm unhappy with the scathing tone used for 'housewives' here. It's essentially what I am and it's really quite hard.

-- Ned Trifle II, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:12 PM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

i really hope you don't think i'm using housewife to mean something easy. i know how hard it is, and how IMPORTANT it is, coming from a family in which my mom was a fucking mess.

I am not Dom Passantino, although I have the same initials

Sorry, Ned, I agree that the idea that you don't need a wider view of the world and the bits of history, lit, language, philosophy, and goshdarn PERSPECTIVE that one hopefully acquires at college in order to make good decisions re your home life and your children is filthy nonsense. Drudgery doesn't req an education, but home life shouldn't BE drudgery, nor should chid-rearing. For it to be good and enriching for everyone, the person at the center has to have some vision...

i should add that i had a better stronger idea of what i wanted to do for a living at 18 than i do now (spirit-breaking cynicism jadedness etc.). age/experience doesn't necessarily mean anything. it's like that baz luhrmann song.

i don't think the only way to utilise your degree-learning is through discharging it in a job. if someone learns psychology and it enriches their understanding of just, you know, things?, life?, families?, the human condition and all, then that's cool too. you're not a write off if you aren't making as much money as your fellow alumni.

i agree with this. just, the learning psychology part doesn't have to cost a fortune, IMO.

actually thinking about it my initials are completely different

i think college broke me in a lot of ways. spiritually and mentally.

I mean obvs I don't know anything about your experience, but speaking purely on a level of maturity of thinking I really do believe most people leave college better off.

The other thing going undiscussed here is that a lot of the people who feel fucked by going to college "too early" did a straight-up liberal arts degree, which is exactly what I did. It doesn't set you up for much of anything in the way of a profession but damned if I'd trade it to go into hard sciences or accounting or some bullshit.

Grad school ate my soul.

Sorry, Ned, I agree that the idea that you don't need a wider view of the world and the bits of history, lit, language, philosophy, and goshdarn PERSPECTIVE that one hopefully acquires at college in order to make good decisions re your home life and your children is filthy nonsense. Drudgery doesn't req an education, but home life shouldn't BE drudgery, nor should chid-rearing. For it to be good and enriching for everyone, the person at the center has to have some vision...

-- Laurel, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:16 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

I don't think I was saying this? I was trying to say that being a houseperson after getting a degree was a perfectly good way to use that education. But, tbh,I don't even know what I'm arguing about. 10 years of parenting has turned my fisrt class mind to mush.

The other thing going undiscussed here is that a lot of the people who feel fucked by going to college "too early" did a straight-up liberal arts degree, which is exactly what I did. It doesn't set you up for much of anything in the way of a profession but damned if I'd trade it to go into hard sciences or accounting or some bullshit.

otm

did my degree too early and regard the whole period with irritation as a result but I'd still not do much different other than be a bit less of a clueless dick the second time through

i agree with this. just, the learning psychology part doesn't have to cost a fortune, IMO.

yeah, for sure, but i think that's more of a problem of you-americans and increasingly us-brits expensive education system than university itself. i disagree that nightschools and libraries are for people who want to learn, that people who aren't planning to step onto the career ladder straight out of uni, or who have different aims (i don't know, authors or whatever), should be confined to creeping around while everyone else is asleep so they don't disrupt the academic food chain.

People who slag off other people for being 'housewives' are idiots. So are people who slag off other people for being students, graduates, or office temps. For that matter, people who slag off other people for being middle-class are idiots.

i don't think the only way to utilise your degree-learning is through discharging it in a job.

i think this is key. when i was applying for college the line from parents/teachers was "if you dont get into college you wont get a good job and your entire future will be ruined!!!"
if i went in with the attitude to learn for the sake of learning i would have enjoyed it a lot more. of course now i wish id done law because that 160K starting salary is dope.

As a university employee, I see plenty of guys and girls who have no business being here, but their families correctly assume that without a degree their children would be useless. The guys will major in business, the girls in psychology, and for a lot of them it's a placating exercise. The women just want to be housewives, the guys own their own businesses, and you don't "need" degrees.

Okay this question and the assumptions underlying make me so goddamned mad but I've got some cleaning to do and a haircut to get so I'm just going to say "Jesus Fucking Christ" and be done with it.

Jesus Fucking Christ.

lol @ thread making everyone feel insecure

lol @ thread coming from insecure self-loathing asshole

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/events-images/a136_terror_alert_system_2050081722-16697.jpg

lol @ thread started by insecure self-loathing asshole

People who slag off other people for being 'housewives' are idiots. So are people who slag off other people for being students, graduates, or office temps. For that matter, people who slag off other people for being middle-class are idiots.

Correct.

Dom's going to run out of easy external targets and start lampooning his feet or something.

Never mind, Ned, we're agreeing with each other but I can't sort out my phrasing at this time of morning.

As a university employee, I see plenty of guys and girls who have no business being here, but their families correctly assume that without a degree their children would be useless. The guys will major in business, the girls in psychology, and for a lot of them it's a placating exercise. The women just want to be housewives, the guys own their own businesses, and you don't "need" degrees.

god, yes. though i think breaking it down on gender/major lines is a little unfair. a high school diploma means fuckall, is the problem. we've counted on higher education to make a kid worthwhile. that's a little bit late and really expensive.

I gotta say that since the meta bunch were rounded up and caned, Dom's quality of humor has taken a marked hit.

Dom's going to run out of easy external targets and start lampooning his feet or something.

i thought this WAS that

i would just like to say that i have a lot of love for you all. whether or not you got a university degree.

corny indie feetxors

lol @ thread started by insecure self-loathing asshole

-- fritz, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 16:27 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Flouncy ILX hissyfit retirements are getting shorter every day.

regardless of what anyone thinks of Dom's humour or lack thereof, it's still turned into a (somewhat) interesting ('interesting') thread.

dom's been pullin it out

http://blogs.chron.com/hoofbeats/archives/arg-beating-heart-sfx-url.gif

Like those more deserving candidates from less privileged backgrounds, this thread has risen above its origin.

Fearing the new Passantino/Awn alliance here y'alls.

perhaps ilx can complain to the halls reps to stop this racket

http://bp3.blogger.com/_SJYaJzfRGw4/RenGrxxlx1I/AAAAAAAABJY/hELN4a5gJss/s320/Original-nWo.jpg

it's awn

Scott Hall's considering his ILX retirement in that picture in protest at people not paying enough attention to his last retirement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00039/frontpage200708_39064a.jpg

Good article, that.

dom, don't you have some very challenging record reviews to write for the internet? good thing you took up space in a classroom preparing yourself for that

http://newdemocracyworld.org/War/photo.insurgents.jpg

jesus christ dom you are such a fucking cunt on this subject. i don't think i have ever been so irritated by a thread title before.

i don't even know where to begin ripping into the absurd premise of your argument, except to say that there are quite a few people who (1) enjoy learning for learning's sake, (2) have difficulty finding jobs within the skill-set in which they are trained and (3) would spend their time on earth in a fairly menial job that does not occupy them too greatly, leaving them with attention to things that appeal more to them outside of work.

and before you decide to point it out -- yeah, i am one of these people who has taken jobs 'below' my station for various reasons.

The lowest of the low?

Well, I don't know. They're probably a few notches above that Dom guy, at the very least. There's comfort in knowing that.

Nice to see the Independent bigging up Lunch With Sting and Butterfly Heaven tho - looks like their staff have Fluxblog bookmarked!

who doesn't!!

jesus christ dom you are such a fucking cunt on this subject. i don't think i have ever been so irritated by a thread title before.

i don't even know where to begin ripping into the absurd premise of your argument, except to say that there are quite a few people who (1) enjoy learning for learning's sake, (2) have difficulty finding jobs within the skill-set in which they are trained and (3) would spend their time on earth in a fairly menial job that does not occupy them too greatly, leaving them with attention to things that appeal more to them outside of work.

and before you decide to point it out -- yeah, i am one of these people who has taken jobs 'below' my station for various reasons.

-- remy bean, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 16:54 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

1) OK, we've already established that you don't need to be at university in order to learn
2) Right, you made the decision to train in that field, why is that my problem?
3) Right, why did you need to go to university then?

I mean, we're agreeing here, except I'm saying that wasting your life away and taking away opportunities from the less priveleged in society is a bad thing, and you're saying that this benefits you so it's a good thing. It's not really an argument, we're on the same side.

i don't think i have ever been so irritated by a thread title before.

SO COMPLETELY OTM IT HURTS.

The concept that universities should be set aside as a place for those who wish to increase their opportunities in life via education rather than as a place to do beer bongs every evening and listen to Manu Chao: more offensive than racism, say ILx posters.

:D

person goes to college, has a shitty job afterward. what is being taken away from the less privileged in this scenario?

assume a reasonable opportunity increasing/manu chao experience balanace in their time at school

the bongo balance

google: this applies more to the UK than the US (because of a greater emphasis on scholarships over there), but in the UK, especially at topflight unis, there is a finite number of spaces, and also people from less priveleged backgrounds are strongly underrepresented at these unis. QED.

The concept that universities should be set aside as a place for those who wish to increase their opportunities in life via education rather than as a place to do beer bongs every evening and listen to Manu Chao: more offensive than racism, say ILx posters.

Your premise is stated clearly, in bold, at the top of the thread. Don't feign shock towards the fact that we're responding to what you wrote as opposed to what you claim you meant.

People who get a university degree and then go on to spend the rest of their lives working as office temps or video store employees or whatever

Who, me?!? </Dom>

a couple words in the title should have been capitalized but otherwise good job

Deric, don't get mad at me, get mad at your student loan officer.

because of a greater emphasis on scholarships over there

yeah we wish.

so your problem is that the universities are clogged up with people who sailed right in, but won't "do" anything with their degree? and the other side effect is that low-rung service jobs now have the absurd requirement of a degree, since everyone is just supposed to have one?

ps you don't really need a cobbled together policy argument to hate on post-oxbridge arts degree layabouts.

great thread so far

http://dot.kelder.net/~jones/popcorn/img/popcorn.gif

Englande sounds really complicated.

so your problem is that the universities are clogged up with people who sailed right in, but won't "do" anything with their degree? and the other side effect is that low-rung service jobs now have the absurd requirement of a degree, since everyone is just supposed to have one?

-- goole, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 17:14 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

This is definitely part of it. I lead with the provocative and let the real arguments come out within. Like Gaunty.

CHILL Y'ALL

here smoke this bong and listen to this french rap CD

oh sorry it is a beer bong did i say "smoke" i meant "lie there and suffer"

http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l442/acrobins/UNIVERSITY.jpg

I understand maligning people who coast through life and succeed because of connections or nepotism or whatever. I understand maligning college students who don't give a fuck about learning anything. And I definitely understand maligning anyone with a college degree who's content to sit back and collect unemployment. But do you really think that anyone shouldering heavy college debt and temping with no benefits or insurance is thinking, "I win! In your face, society!"?

I understand maligning people who coast through life and succeed because of connections or nepotism or whatever.

Yeah, I don't agree with this either.

(Hint: I am not feeling like a winner or throwing anything in society's face at the moment.)

I understand maligning people who coast through life and succeed because of connections or nepotism or whatever.

Yeah, I don't agree with this either.

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree, either, but I can at least sympathize with that viewpoint.

1) OK, we've already established that you don't need to be at university in order to learn

True, but a four-year academic program allows you to learn in an arguably more efficient, structured manner than the alternatives. Plus, the opportunities are riper for socialization and the developing of interests that aren't strictly academic. When I think about the benefits that I got out of college, it's not just the degree -- it's the fact that I made friends, that I flourished creatively, and that I learned things about myself just by having so much to react to in that environment.

Dom went to Lancaster, though, so I can understand how this might seem like bullshit to him. Pretty much all I got out of my study-abroad program there was academic knowledge, and a lot of it was in fact self-motivated. Dancing to Fatboy Slim at the Sugarhouse was ace, though.

I understand maligning people who coast through life and succeed because of connections or nepotism or whatever.

Yeah, I don't agree with this either.

-- remy bean, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 4:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

i know, i'm really confused about it. i always feel guilty for maligning these people.

developing of interests that aren't strictly academic

eg bongs as dsicussed

I understand maligning people who coast through life and succeed because of connections or nepotism or whatever.

Yeah, I don't agree with this either.

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree, either, but I can at least sympathize with that viewpoint.

-- Deric W. Haircare, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:26 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

i cant. its not supposed to be fair.

Dom went to Lancaster, though

league table zing?

true. i think maybe an easier way of capitulating viewpoints like this are "i'm jealous that you've had it so fucking nice"

xp Maybe? If I knew what that meant.

Would that apply to people who'd like equality between races as well, or are you only comfortable gaining unfair advantages in life from your parents' wallet?

xxxp

jaymc, what on earth was up with the amount of US exchange students in Lancaster? Like, I refuse to believe that you're sitting off over the Atlantic actively chosen to visit Lancaster's historic market town centre.

wait does dom = stickman or mpx4a? i presume the other is enrique?

-- mookieproof, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 15:11 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

Dom = stickman mpx4a = michael phillip (x4) annoyman enrique doesn't appear to be around unless i'm not familiar with his latest sockpuppet account.

understand maligning people who coast through life and succeed because of connections or nepotism or whatever.

I agree with this. I think you missed your target here, Dom.

Or missed "the" target, maybe, I dunno.

I understand maligning people who've succeeded via connections and nepotism, because in my experience they are some of the most conceited, head-in-the-sand motherfuckers ever. Try working for a family-owned business and you'll probably see what I mean.

dom - do you just write record reviews or do you do something more altruistic on top of that? because if all you do is write about music and post on ilx, i'm not sure how - in the grand scheme of things - that's any more worthy than being a video store clerk or an office temp. and I'm also not sure how you justify having gone to university to prepare yourself for your chosen career, given your dedication to providing opportunities for the less priviliged and all... of course, if you were including yourself in the lowest of the low, then fair enough but somehow I don't get the impression you are.

lancaster's a pretty good university, just checked the league tables

for some reason i thought dom went to northampton (lol he lives there)

Dom hates Dom.

-- libcrypt, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:26 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link

No, he hates women too

and me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armed_Forces#Recruitment

implied in dom's complaint: the purpose of rich people is to "do something" with their privilege, something worthwhile and virtuous, to justify their privileges, rather than fucking around or making bad art or whatever (straight-up exercizing that privilege for personal advantage, going from top-flight university to top-flight business, is curiously absent from this binary -- is that a good thing or not?).

the purpose of the less-privileged is to "get ahead," to win a place for themselves via university in something more renumerative, more professional, more decent than working at a video store. storm the gates and become middle class!

this seems like richard branson blairism, to me.

does anybody else think our very own passantino would make an excellent officer to the gurkhas

jaymc, what on earth was up with the amount of US exchange students in Lancaster?

I think Lancaster just cultivated a study-abroad program that was attractive to US universities. I knew I wanted to study in the UK, but there were only two programs available at my school, and the one in London (Goldsmiths) was only open to art/theater majors. (I also could've gone to a British university not affiliated with my school, but it would've been a big hassle and probably prohibitively expensive.)

Bappa Rawal Passatino

I understand maligning people who've succeeded via connections and nepotism, because in my experience they are some of the most conceited, head-in-the-sand motherfuckers ever. Try working for a family-owned business and you'll probably see what I mean.

-- dan m, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:35 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

but it doesnt matter. the best you can do, no matter who you are or know etc, is accurately gauge your starting point and go from point A to point B. hating on people who have an easy A to B journey is a waste of time.

basing your personal success on how far youve gone in a job is kind of ridiculous anyway

amen

it is some kind of weird teleological self-aggrandizement that slights anything you did "on the way" to where you now are.

i could dig around in wiki myself for this, but what exactly is the relationship between the state and oxbridge in the UK system? how do people get into these schools?

the ivy league here has the same bullshit halo accrued to it, but nobody has the illusion that these instutions owe anything to 'society' -- they're all essentially s multi-billion dollar set of tax exempt hedge funds with schools as fronts

but it doesnt matter. the best you can do, no matter who you are or know etc, is accurately gauge your starting point and go from point A to point B. hating on people who have an easy A to B journey is a waste of time.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but when I was being exploited and browbeaten by the idiot son of the company owner, covering for his other fuckup relatives, and watching him treat other people like dirt and never face retribution because his pops would cover for him, it mattered to me. Then I quit.

basing your personal success on how far youve gone in a job is kind of ridiculous anyway

This I agree with 100%.

Yeah a lot of confusing professional success with "life success" on a board full of people fucking around at work.

But seriously Dom there's no way you would be as good at pissing people off with gleeful bullshit had you not gone to some UK University I know fuck all about. Be thankful for that education broseph!

As a university employee, I see plenty of guys and girls who have no business being here, but their families correctly assume that without a degree their children would be useless. The guys will major in business, the girls in psychology, and for a lot of them it's a placating exercise. The women just want to be housewives, the guys own their own businesses, and you don't "need" degrees.

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:24 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

HI

http://kalaniosullivan.com/KunsanAB/8thFW/Pics/Anti-AmericanProtestSeoul25May03.jpg

but it doesnt matter. the best you can do, no matter who you are or know etc, is accurately gauge your starting point and go from point A to point B. hating on people who have an easy A to B journey is a waste of time.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but when I was being exploited and browbeaten by the idiot son of the company owner, covering for his other fuckup relatives, and watching him treat other people like dirt and never face retribution because his pops would cover for him, it mattered to me. Then I quit.

that sucks but its a job not a sentence. maybe you should have quit sooner? i dont know. i wasnt there.

all im saying is people need to focus on themselves rather than fucking themselves over by spending a chunk of their lives dormant because they cant get past the fact that someone has it easier.

I haven't read much of this thread but:

i think marcello's right in that going straight from school to university can be a huge shock to the system

It's SUPPOSED to be a big shock to the system, going to university should be as much about learning socially and societally as learning academically. The good thing about being at university is that it provides a relatively safe environment for people who know nothing about the world to make fuck-ups as, ahem, a few people on this thread doubtless know full well.

i could dig around in wiki myself for this, but what exactly is the relationship between the state and oxbridge in the UK system? how do people get into these schools?

by being intelligent and passing interview; in cambridge at least i think we're pretty much 50:50 state:private (albeit with 50:50 nonrepresentative of proportions)

matt dc sort of otm ;)

don't tell me you believe that 'passing interview' and 'being intelligent' are the same thing.

that's why i used "and" to separate the two necessary criteria

I understand maligning people who've succeeded via connections and nepotism, because in my experience they are some of the most conceited, head-in-the-sand motherfuckers ever. Try working for a family-owned business and you'll probably see what I mean.

-- dan m, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 4:35 PM (31 minutes ago)

lolololol we are obviously talking about different definitions of success here. also, might want to change the "in my experience" and "probably" parts of that to flashing bold italics.

very perspicacious

xp

family-owned businesses

getty
ford

more importantly though, the idea behind this thread is completely moronic, at least here in the US. bachelor grads outnumber fancypants jobs, and we don't have a good enough dole system to have a bunch of people refuse jobs that are "beneath" their education level. xposts

dom will have a riot when he finds out what my first full-time post-university job is

its playing the vacuum cleaner isnt it

no but it does involve me speaking a lot, to an audience that will never hear my voice

riddles agogo ILX '08

ford isn't family owned!

cargill and mars inc are, however. as if it matters, at that level.

posting to ilx? xpost

lolololol we are obviously talking about different definitions of success here. also, might want to change the "in my experience" and "probably" parts of that to flashing bold italics.

I didn't realize anyone had defined success at all? Additionally, what else can I speak to but my own experience, so why make it more obvious? I certainly don't claim to speak for anyone else's experiences. Oh, unless you're just suggesting flashing bold italics to make fun of me, in which case you can fuck off :)

Also that was a job I had while in college, making money to pay for books and rent. So up and quitting at the first sign of adversity wasn't exactly an option.

I'm fairly sure that Cambridge admissions has a higher proportion of private schoolers than 50:50 (at least it was that way a few years ago).

Isn't there a problem with this argument if its about privileged people going to the 'better' universities, in that either

a) the privileged go on to use their degrees to take up 'worthwhile' powerful jobs, and therefore there are inequalities in society that are perpetuated by the system.

b) the privileged go on to use their degrees working as office temps or video store employees (they still have video stores?), and therefore are the lowest of the low.

If the reason that you are angry is because there are working class people who dont get to go to university, its the admissions system that is at fault.

Finally, what right does anyone have to judge anyone else? Who says that one job is more worthwhile than another anyway? If someone is happy in life working in their McJob, why should they have to go on to 'achieve' more.

I don't know how happy anyone is working at their McJob.

It's the kind of thing that sounds idyllic when you never come close to having to do it, but it is pretty hellish when it is the only option one has.

ya, it's not like ppl are like "sweet... got my degree... now i can look forward to a life of temping with no benefits! take that, underprivileged!"

dude, what i'm saying is that a shitty job with a shitty boss is just that, the whole shiftless layabouts suckling on the family teat mythos is just easy targeting. family sponsored nepotism (meaning sponsorship of unqualified douche) is no more common than ass-kissing guy nepotism in corporate culture. xposts

Much as I'd hate to offer a serious response to Dom's initial question, I think he's only talking about a VERY small and select bunch of people, who really do work the most menial, brainless jobs for a living, rather than those who start low but continually aim higher with applications/aspirations/etc. Not that this validates his argument, or indeed devalues it.

shut the fuck up

basically the stereotype referred to in the thread title seems so rare as to not bother without turning it into a broader 'abolish public school rich/poor divide' attack.

we do that about three times a week tho

I just don't see why if you want to go to university you must have lofty career aspirations, or be in danger of becoming one of the 'lowest of the low'.

Its a good job that Robert Mugabe didn't waste his Oxford degree on working at Waterstones or he would have been a real scumbag.

basically this has become the handwringing semi-clusterfuck dom is so adept at creating

he rarely gets the full-bore shitfest these days tho. gotta up game, shoot sixes my good man

"Seven years of college down the drain"
http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2007/10/24/animal_house_2.png

all im saying is people need to focus on themselves rather than fucking themselves over by spending a chunk of their lives dormant because they cant get past the fact that someone has it easier.

OTM.
Most jobs are pointless anyway. I know what I do is.
I went to Uni, worked hard to get a good result and was desperate to use it when I graduated. Went to about 50 interviews but couldn't get a job in what I wanted to do (mainly through lack of work experience, which in turn was due to not being able to volunteer/work for free while at Uni - something a more well-off person could have done). Was a temp for quite a long time and I'm certainly not 'using' my degree now.

Surely it's your attitude towards your time at Uni that counts, rather than the title of the job you end up in. I know one guy who spent years at Uni going from course to course and basically begging his way back onto the course each year after failing, not because he couldn't have easily done the work but because he simply could not be arsed.
The "middle class" kind of person Dom's talking about probably wouldn't end up working in a video shop or whatever because their dad would get them some well-paid but still probably soul-destroying bank or media job.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2124/2243450657_840ca64507.jpg

Good call!

I'm fairly sure that Cambridge admissions has a higher proportion of private schoolers than 50:50 (at least it was that way a few years ago).

57.7% from state schools last year, apparently (or 56% if you look at the Guardian's website).

"HEEEEEEEEEY Passa-tino!"

http://silverjacket.typepad.com/blog/images/macarena3_1.jpg

I didn't realize anyone had defined success at all?

cue "What is Success? Webster's Dictionary defines "success" as..." speech

hey Matt you need to make up more lyrics to go with that before i can excelsior it

OK get a 17 or 18 year old into a job where they make comfortable living wage with opportunity for advancement and ask them in 8 years if they want to go to college. They won't, and they'll have the same level of maturity in their thinking that they did when they finished high school, pretty much for the rest of their lives.

i can't believe nobody challenged this as complete bullshit, particularly the second sentence. the only thing that matures a person after the age of 17 is a university education?

Yeah dude it's a generalization but I've met soooo many people like this. And it's thought maturity, not like life maturity or whatever. See above comments about how college IS supposed to be a shock to an 18-yo and how it's a safe place to experiment/fuck up.

so's your first job, particularly that video store clerk. that's the attraction in staying there.

what's 'thought' maturity?

Your first job is a place to experiment? Where?

Critical thinking, abstract and long term thinking, etc. etc.

ah, bullshit!

Stupid Americans protestor girl is a babe!

But do you really think people should wait that long before beginning university? I made a disastrous choice of majors when entering university. I bombed my first year of science classes, barely able to even stay awake. I was even a math major on paper in my second year. But I took a couple elective classes that did interest me more and I was able to switch over with no penalty. I can see a year off being a good idea but why 8? (I mean, I assume there was some hyperbole involved?)

I'm very happy for anyone with a degree to do a job that doesn't require one if that's what they want to do. But there does seem to be an unfortunate pattern, particularly with arts & humanities graduates in the UK, that goes like this:

1) Student gets summer job every year in shop/restaurant/bar because they need money and can't get anything else.
2) Student leaves university and has to get a job straight away to earn money to pay overdraft/council tax, perhaps having to move home to live with parents, possibly in crap town with fewer graduate jobs.
3)Student keeps trying to apply for jobs in their preferred graduate industry but unsurprisingly their 2:1 from Sussex in English and 2 summers working in Pizza Hut and one in a call centre don't stand out from everyone else's. Meanwhile their chances of landing the dream job in media/publishing/non-profit etc. get slimmer and slimmer.

The government and universities could do a lot more for increasing equal opportunities by providing financial aid for students who want to spend their summers getting internships in graduate industries but can't afford to work for free, and actually discouraging employers from offering unpaid internships longer than two weeks (some of the worst culprits, ironically, being supposedly ethical organisations). Employers, on their part, should be offering a lot more graduate trainee positions and not just demanding experience that only the very wealthiest or luckiest graduates can manage to obtain.

Meanwhile their chances of landing the dream job in media/publishing/non-profit etc. get slimmer and slimmer.

Another thing: the dudes and gals who get liberal arts degrees all want these kinds of jobs! And there's wayyyyy more candidates than positions in these fields. Anyone I know who landed a publishing or nonprofit job was pretty aggressive and interned and stuff.

This has been hinted at, but Matt Groening hit the nail on the head in "School is Hell" when he wrote something about college/uni being a socialization mechanism for the upper, middle (and increasingly lower) classes. Yes, one can learn a great amount about a great many subjects, and one can come out a better person, but really, it's all about learning how (or being forced to learn how) to exist as an 'adult' in contemporary society. What this means I am not totally sure, but I think it has something to do with coupling, learning to work according to inflexible schedules, pronouncing words properly, and learning the rigors and rules of when/how/why to get shitfaced/stoned.

That said, I definitely came out of college (lol Oberlin) a much kinder, less judgmental little alcoholic than when I went in. So it did the job in that respect.

I also certainly came out with much more of a clear idea of how the world works, and how I can possibly fit in with it.

Also, I know about contemporary poetics and post-structuralism! SCORE!

I don't think you're wrong, table, but srsly I did not learn any of those skills in college. lol Christian education and also lol I suck at school.

according to wikipedia, only 27% of americans have college degrees--is this true?

I love the idea of all these psychic sixteen year olds that get good enough GCSE's to do A-levels, but somehow know that they're going to fuck up uni within the next five years. Lowest of the fucking low. Should be using their amazing ability to predict the future to play the stock markets or something.

hard for an infant to make it through college nowadays, max

The 2006 American Community Survey conducted by the United States Census Bureau found that 19.5 percent of the population had attended college but had no degree, 7.4 percent held an associate's degree, 17.1 percent held a bachelor's degree, and 9.9 percent held a graduate or professional degree. Only a small gender gap was present: 27 percent of the overall population held a bachelor's degree or higher, with a slightly larger percentage of men (27.9 percent) than women (26.2 percent).[2]

if my math is right then, somewhere around 40% of americans (could be higher or lower depending on how many ppl hold more than one degree) have attended college at some point in their lives?

xposts 24% of the country is under the age of 18--so its more like 50-55% of people who are of age to have gone to college have done so

it's all about learning how (or being forced to learn how) to exist as an 'adult' in contemporary society.

a certain kind of 'adult' though...

Oh sure, I realized I should have qualified that more.

explains a lot

laurel otm - that is exactly how i feel

xposts 24% of the country is under the age of 18--so its more like 50-55% of people who are of age to have gone to college have done so

Yeah, 53.9% according to that census survey (some college, no degree + associates + bachelors + graduate).

im so good at math

anyway the reason i brought it up is because if thats the case, some 46% of the country isnt properly socialized, having never gone to college

Max, as DC said and I reiterated, I meant 'socialized' in a specific way, in a specific segment of society.

Additionally, I would argue that about 20% of the US isn't properly socialized, but that is because I am a snob.

They can' even use the potty!

I only say this bcz this text is a big part of NMSU interdisciplinary curriculum:

http://pottytrainingsolutions.com/shop/images/Fuzzy%20Bear.jpg

Thing is, you don't actually NEED a degree to do 85% of jobs. Unless you're going to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher, academic, scientist or some description, your degree isn't going to be any pracitcal help whatsoever.

It's not what they're for. I'm passionately against the idea that universities should be about churning out endless graduates so they can fulfil entry level requirements at middle-ranking business information companies or whatever. Universities SHOULD be about learning for learning's sake. Dom's contention that you don't need to go to university to learn these things is true to an extent, but nowhere else are you going to have the same access to academics (potentially world authorities) or the depth of resources in a university library. Not to mention all the other things you're never going to get the opportunity to do for free (or very cheap) in another environment again.

The only person I know who actually fits the stereotype in the thread title is actually solidly working class. And an alcoholic, which is probably why he's working in Waterstones in his university town seven years after graduation.

I blame those toilet training read-along books for making me completely unable to take a dump unless I am reading something. Anything.

Universities SHOULD be about learning for learning's sake. Dom's contention that you don't need to go to university to learn these things is true to an extent, but nowhere else are you going to have the same access to academics (potentially world authorities) or the depth of resources in a university library. Not to mention all the other things you're never going to get the opportunity to do for free (or very cheap) in another environment again.

this ^^

There's so much stuff I've learned in college that I would never have known how to be exposed to were I Finding Forrester/Good Will Hunting-style super-autodidact.

I mean, really, universities are huge pools of resources more than anything else. I'd personally be in favour of making every arts degree in the UK about twice as intensive, make the fuckers actually work for their qualification like they do in science degrees, and at Oxbridge.

it's not like i spent that 5-month hiatus obsessively reading ilx now, is it

but matt dc completely OTM

so for all those with liberal arts degrees, if you could go back would you change your major to something more practical ? ie. medicine, business, law, science etc ? i'm about to make that decision and even though my interests definitely lean towards the liberal arts, this thread scares the living shit out of me. not just this thread per se but many friends whom i know in this predicament.

That is why I switched from English teaching to biology midway through my neverending undergrad career. But also I didn't want to teach (under NCLB anyway) and I do love science...there's always a balance somewhere.

Except when there's not.

I am secretly minoring in tautologies.

for me to have chosen anything other than english lit, i'd have had to have made a lot of changes a long time before leaving high school. as it happens, with the benefit of two months' hindsight i wouldn't have done anything else, although i suspect that classics would have represented my best chance of achieving a 1st (not that this remotely matters)

sometimes i wish i'd fulfilled my youthful promise as a maths/science whizz

the degree shouldn't matter too much, but make it in something you have some talent and interest in so you can do the work w/o too much anguish and your grades will be good. if you love a subject area, do it.

the main thing is to make sure you come out of it with some concrete accomplishments: projects you can show off, extra-curricular stuff, positions of leadership, internships, volunteering, all that. start things, get involved in things, finish things outside of coursework.

i wish i'd studied accounting

!!! Why before you left high school, LJ? I mean, I'm shocked enough that you enter university at 16 (apparently)...just how far ahead is your career path set? Are you guys secretly Deutschland?

for all those with liberal arts degrees, if you could go back would you change your major to something more practical ? ie. medicine, business, law, science etc

yes 1000X yes.

the main thing is to make sure you come out of it with some concrete accomplishments: projects you can show off, extra-curricular stuff, positions of leadership, internships, volunteering, all that. start things, get involved in things, finish things outside of coursework.

this is good advice, and i knew it going into college, but alas i'm not a go-getter and i'd rather pull out my own teeth than do that sort of shit. esp as a 20yr old.

i wish i'd studied either accounting or been self-directed enough during college to make sure i could get into a fully funded phd program without ever entering the real world. i was such a fuck-up in college i never thought i would get into any grad program afterwards and immediately resigned myself to soul-sucking employment, little did i knnow what a racket grad school is.

so for all those with liberal arts degrees, if you could go back would you change your major to something more practical?

Nope.

so for all those with liberal arts degrees, if you could go back would you change your major to something more practical?

Honestly? No. I wish I'd had more/better advice as to what skills would actually be required in my chosen career path though, then I could have used my time and resources more practically honing something useful while writing lengthy essays on Melville.

Also Cathy's post is screamingly OTM.

jaymc don't you have a job that's more or less related to what you studied though?

Universities SHOULD be about learning for learning's sake.

Yes, but...

Academic courses by their nature offer the possibility of learning for learning's sake, and I'd never for a moment suggest that English literature degrees should include compulsory courses on office administration and email etiquette or whatever. But the average university student has a ridiculous amount of free time (I had less than twelve contact hours a week throughout my entire course and in the final two years around eight), and there's no reason why most students couldn't be doing worthwhile work experience during some of their time and still have plenty of time for learning for learning's sake. Universities (with extra government funding) should really play a bigger role in establishing contacts and schemes with all kinds of graduate employers so that worthwhile and varied work experience is a standard and feasible thing to do, both during term-time and summer.

I really think the trick to getting more students to do work experience as opposed to working in non-skilled retail/catering etc jobs is just for government, employers and universities to come up with a way to make it a financially viable option. Like how the UK government offers grants as incentives for 16-18 year olds to stay on at school or college. If as a student you could get a government grant for doing ten hours a week voluntary work or unpaid work experience, even if it was less than you could potentially earn doing the same number of hours waitressing, I think a lot of students would do it.

Couldn't agree more, really.

Honestly? No. I wish I'd had more/better advice as to what skills would actually be required in my chosen career path though, then I could have used my time and resources more practically honing something useful while writing lengthy essays on Melville.

when you say this do you mean this ? xxxpost

the main thing is to make sure you come out of it with some concrete accomplishments: projects you can show off, extra-curricular stuff, positions of leadership, internships, volunteering, all that. start things, get involved in things, finish things outside of coursework.

Yes, Granny Dainger, in the sense that I was an English major and now I work in publishing. It's not like I'm analyzing texts, though (just copy-editing them).

I guess I was thinking about the question in financial terms, like would you go back and study something that would allow you to live a more comfortable life? And the answer is probably not, since I'm not sure I could enjoy it.

Universities SHOULD be about learning for learning's sake.

i dont get what this means

lj, do you even have a job yet?

i wish i would've studied something practical like programming, but we both know that wouldn't have worked out. i've been doing just fine with an english lit degree (ie who cares what you majored in, it's a degree), but i got a little lucky and also feel like i don't have a whole lot to stand on if i wanted to change careers.

I don't really see a whole lot of jobs that I'd rather have where a different B.A. would be an asset; there are a few where a graduate degree would be, though.

ILX kinda persistently misuses the term "liberal arts."

I don't even know what 'liberal arts' means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts

everyone told me to do more practical classes with my english lit degree, but i ignored them - i kind of knew they were right in one sense, but in the other sense i knew that if i did business-y type classes i would have fucked out of them anyway.

all i really want is my own bookstore and my own chandler & price printing press.

Oscar, basically yes, extra-curricular activities key, but some kinds are much more important than others. Not sure how it works outside the UK, but here things like work shadowing/mentoring, short work experience placements, office-based charity volunteering and summer internships are all totally possible to get but the onus is totally on the student both to organise and fund -- even if you can afford the unpaid hours, the actual process of applying for some of these things can be a massive hassle, and the lack of established schemes means you might need to send of a lot of speculative CVs and letters. But anything that gives you actual work experience, particularly in or close to a sector you're interested in, is worth ten thousand memberships of student clubs and societies.

could always work on the student paper heh

just located scans of terrible reviews i wrote 10-12 years ago

I don't really see a whole lot of jobs that I'd rather have where a different B.A. would be an asset;

in terms of applying/hiring i agree, but i wish i would've had it in my to take some business & computer classes while it was easy to do.

xpost

"Liberal arts" is just a style of education where you're meant to get a general grounding in a variety of classical knowledge and become comprehensively, umm, educated. This is basically what most Americans think of as "college" -- where everyone's expected to learn some basics about literature, science, history, math, etc. -- as opposed to something like a "trade school," where you learn the specific thing you signed on for.

ILX always misuses "liberal arts" to mean something like "humanities," which refers to the study of stuff like literature, art, philosophy, classics, religion, etc.

the conservative arts

There is definitely a unique style in there and this is what a band like ______ need rather than to be compared to those bands of higher sales stature just for the sake of it. If they are to go froward then the only ay is to develop their own traits and characteristics - something they have done with this original and effective production. A promising debut indeed, as the charts have confirmed.

ha ha, wrong thread again

P.S. I am perfectly happy with having studied literature and writing. There was a time when I wished I had stuck with studying journalism, because I would see people from that direction having much more concrete skills and more defined careers than I did. But that eventually changed -- and even if I'd finished a journalism bachelor's, I'm not sure I'd have had the temperament to be very happy going through J school.

Abbott - I'd have had to have chosen different A-levels and devoted my time to different pursuits if I was gonna be anything other than an English student; my mind was made up at about the age of 14/15 to be honest. Maybe even earlier.

Jordan - I applied to a job three weeks ago, attended an interview/aptitude test last week, and had it confirmed within the past few days, starting in September. Can be done if you're alert lucky enough (although the vacancy was linked to me by the Careers Service lady I went out of my way to visit after term finished, so there was initiative to some extent). The job itself is like a facsimile of my ultimate dream, and will hopefully provide me with great experience and a bit of cash. The fact of my studying English lit is only relevant inasmuch as it's shaped my own writing (and especially poetry) quite considerably, most of all in the last year of the course.

The job itself is like a facsimile of my ultimate dream

Tiny from Ultrasound has finally got to the stage where he needs someone to wash him down. Blimey.

I would also note that while a life spent as a bookstore manager or yoga teacher might feel for some people like a crushing failure down from the lives of their middle-class parents, it is leagues and leagues from anything I'd consider a "bad" life turn-out -- it's above average, really, and plenty of people live this way without taking any great unhappiness from it, and many of those people are people who, no matter what kind of do-overs you gave them, would just not be inclined to study accounting, or not temperamentally suited to corporate work, and so either way they went, there's every likelihood they'd have come to it either way: getting to an age where they do the stuff they like, are content to make nice lives for themselves on reasonable pay just like everyone else does every day, and aren't too bothered by the thought that they probably won't get rich or famous and will instead fight the normal little battles people fight to get things like medical care and decent retirement funds.

That's the best zing I've shipped in weeks. Take heed, Americans.

nabisco then i guess the University of Illinois misuses the term, also.

Please expand on that.

I wouldn't change it at all, but mostly because I got to pursue (and continue to pursue) my other interests whilst utilizing my degree in (yes, lols all around) Writing. I managed the radio station for a year, was head of the band-booking student group, etc.

Now I write for a few music publications, DJ and do legal research. Start grad school, racket that it is, in the fall.

If the reason that you are angry is because there are working class people who dont get to go to university, its the admissions system that is at fault.

no, it's more to do with the hugely varying quality of education which precedes any admissions process

are lives different

xpost - never mind, I looked it up, and if you're referring to the fact that they (like lots of schools) have something called a College of Liberal Arts & Sciences, they mean by that what they say on their website:

The scope of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences spans the breadth of human endeavor. ... We fondly refer to LAS as the heart of the University because of its fundamental role in all education and research.

-- i.e., its educational purposes is a liberal arts one ("spans the breadth of human endeavor" and is educationally "fundamental"), which is precisely what that's supposed to mean. Lots of places call the same sort of division just a College of Arts and Sciences; they happen to call it Liberal Arts and Sciences; that doesn't exactly change what the term means

alls i know is that as a psych major, i have a "liberal arts" degree. as does nearly everyone else who majored in something other than "hard" sciences. IOW if the term is misused, it's not endemic to ILX.

I've just graduated with a 1st in Philosophy (lol) and I'm not even getting interviews for the shitty, 3-Standard-Grades-required clerical jobs I'm applying for. I'm pretty low. Perhaps that's what I get for being miserly enough to get by on student loan alone.

But I should add that I am of a terribly underprivileged background, which maybe makes it okay. That and that I'll be taking my degree as far as I can, with nomadic lecturing on mediocre pay being the dream.

Ha, I didn't say it was restricted to ILX, I said it was persistent on ILX. But I mention it mostly because there is already a pretty good word for what (e.g.) JW means when he says "lol liberal arts major," and that word is "humanities." (Traditionally or ideally I would consider you someone with a Bachelor of Arts degree from a liberal-arts college, and the chemist you roomed with someone with a Bachelor of Sciences degree from a liberal-arts college -- someone tells me they have a liberal arts major and it sounds to me like they went to one of those schools where you can major in some kind of self-directed learn-about-everything style.)

see, i always assumed "liberal arts" was a relatively recent creation, a way to lump something like psych in with the humanities.

What town/city are you applying for jobs in, Merdeyeux?

Dundee, it isn't exactly full of great opportunities, but I can't help but wonder what I'm doing so wrong in my applications to not be considered for jobs that I'm overqualified for in every category.

i studied movies and writers and writing in university. now i write about movies and make movies about writers. what do i win?

(also i got a D in chaucer)

(Tried to send you an off-board email just then, not sure if it worked, x-post.)

Having gone to a good university, being a lifelong temp or video store employee would be a dream if the US had universal healthcare. My favorite jobs ever were busdriver and working in record stores. Now I work for an investment bank. When people ask me what I do, I always tell them what I do outside of work. Or just say "Nothing. I hang out with my dog a lot."

It is interesting that this thread's focus of "not working in what you studied" seems mainly aimed at humanities/liberal arts, which are so generic as to lend a grad to god knows what career anyway.

No one's really brought up the opposite side of this, except this comment upthread:

I went to Uni, worked hard to get a good result and was desperate to use it when I graduated. Went to about 50 interviews but couldn't get a job in what I wanted to do (mainly through lack of work experience

Which is a very key point in my mind; especially when you are in the IT industry. Technical companies: IT, games companies, multimedia firms, etc - complain all the time that graduates are useless to them. A degree isn't practical enough, and most unis are way behind the 8-ball when it comes to cutting edge tech (I'm waiting for Curtis to pop in here and tell me thats not always the case re MIT/GATech but you get my point).

Almost everyone I know who is a high level, skilled programmer/network architect/sysadmin got there without going to university at ALL, or dropping out. They're where they are because they went and worked, and kept up with the changes in the industry, instead.

Uni is useless for this.

I studied English and intend to teach a few years down the line. In the meantime I freelance, do magic, and work a soul-crushing service industry job. In about 6 months I'll be secure enough in the freelance & magic work that I'll be able to quit the soul-crushing hotel job completely.

Hopefully by summer I'll be in full-on "get ready for grad school" mode.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m264/johnnysonline/Gif%20Files/0Slacker_NoCrop_Classic.gif

I was one of those people who waited until I was 26 to enter college. I didn't have the money to spend on a degree I wasn't sure I wanted. So, I worked abuncha of different jobs, traveled around the world, and lived abroad. When I decided I was going to go in to the medical field, I got a lot of experience first to make sure I liked the work before I dropped the cash on a degree. I graduated last month with my bachelor of science in nursing. I got the first job I applied for, coordinating clinical trials. If I had gone to college at 18, I would've been a theater major. Over 60% of the students in my nursing class had previous liberal arts degree (and a gigantic chip on their shoulder).

As feel-good as the whole "education for the sake of education" rhetoric is, FUCK THAT. I paid for my degree out of my own pocket and I need a return on that investment. If I go to grad school, it will be because I want to go, not because my first degree qualified me for shit.

They're just as bad as people who get a university degree and go on to write for Bizzare and Powerslam magazines. Quite dreadful.

cathy and matt DC pretty much OTM about everything they've said. marcello's point about delaying entry to university also a good one, albeit with caveats all over the place.

i went to university at 18 because it was what you did if you went to my (tedious, private) school.

i did english language and literature because, er, i was good at english and quite fancied journalism.

you can see the level of thought going into this process. i refuse to believe most 18-year-olds are in a position to approach it any better.

"ooh, i fancy being a doctor!" got the grades for medicine? good.

no? er ... fuck it, there's the clearing lists. you'll get on to something.

british universities are full of teenagers chodding around with a subject they hate because they've been told they should be there; that it'll enrich their life in some way; that it'll get them a job. but to have a go at them about this is absurd: this is entirely a product of the feeble-minded aspiration-for-aspiration's-sake society we've created. what are they meant to do?

you just know that if they did what marcello suggests -- worked for a few years, did some voluntary stuff, spent time thinking about their future -- they'd have all manner of twats going on at them about wasting their life and not making something of themself.

as for me: i did realise pretty early on that journalism wasn't going to be the easiest to get into, which is why i got so involved with the student paper (ha!)/whored myself around for work-experience shit. it paid off: by my third year (of four; scottish degree) i was making a small but welcome income from hack work. i've since gone on to what i'm assured is a glittering career in journalism, which i've increasingly grown to loathe. after 11 years as a staff hack, most of them in a senior position and the last five as a manager, i've taken a 50% pay cut to go part-time (as a non-manager) and go back to university to study something i love: psychology.

i combined first-year psych with a full-time job last year, got As for both semesters (something i *never* did when i was half-arsedly studying english) and begin an MSc conversion course in september, hopefully graduating from that in 2010. i'm 33 now; assuming this remains a path i want to pursue (and i can't see why it won't), i'm hoping to be fully qualified (ideally with a doctorate: hey, why not aim high?) by the time i'm 40. it's possible. just.

but what if i don't? what if something goes wrong -- not just with my course, but, say, with a loved one, and i have to abandon my plans? what if -- let's say -- i end up working as an office temp or in a video store? will that make me an unworthy human being? i somehow think not.

am i doing this for the good of society? it would be absurd of me to pretend so. i'm doing it because i want to. (and am funding myself, incidentally.) but: if i can be involved, even as a junior research assistant, in something that increases the sum total of human psychological understanding by a tiny bawhair, it'll be more of an achievement for the public good than anything i've done as a hack in the past decade; or, indeed, am likely to achieve if i carry on in newspapers.

dom: i don't know if you enjoy your job or not. i still like what i *do* as a hack; it's what's happening to journalism that i loathe. and much of that is something the profession has brought on itself; perhaps i should have had the foresight to see the way the wind was blowing 15 years ago, but hey. i didn't. i made my choice. now i'm choosing to do something else. i think society can cope.

one other thing. i remember an enthusiastic young ILX0r ringing me for advice about a career in hackery a few years back. i sincerely hope it works out for him. because the way i see journalism going, i fear the best advice i could have given him was: "fuck it, man. go and temp. or work in a video store. it'll be a damn sight more rewarding."

^^^ one thing was this passantino y/n

british universities are full of teenagers chodding around with a subject they hate because they've been told they should be there; that it'll enrich their life in some way; that it'll get them a job.

also careers advice through school and university is really fucking shocking - you really don't understand the range of stuff available to you until you're in the job market yourself. the amount of people who left university still having no idea what they wanted to do with their lives was shocking

i never bothered with the careers adviser at university because i was a know-it-all little shit who thought he was god's gift to subediting. i remember it being a tiny little place somewhere near the housing office, which almost nobody knew about.

i'm not sure if the problem is the lack of, or poor quality of, advice on offer or the fact students don't know or care that it's there.

We have a superb careers service bureau and barely anyone uses it. To emphasise: I went in there, arranged a discussion, went back the next day, had my CV chopped to pieces (for the better) and my sights focused, then the NEXT day got sent an employment lead which I immediately and successfully followed. A bit of get up and go does wonders.

at school we did some careers questionnaire thingy that was fed into a computer (!) which would then produce your ideal career. mine was zoo keeper :(

so what should careers advisers be advising then? i remember going to mine when i was 16, saying i was planning on pursuing English to which she/he(can't remember) responded: "don't do that, you'll be bored. have a look at international relations instead." which proved pretty astute in the end as I loved my degree and it did help me figure out what I wanted to do afterwards.

I can't complain about my careers talk but there was consideration given to job markets and post higher education prospects. it was about doing something that would interest you. maybe careers meetings should be fundamentally founded in the practicalities but it worked out okay for me.

at school we did some careers questionnaire thingy that was fed into a computer (!) which would then produce your ideal career. mine was zoo keeper :(

I got fishmonger

at school we did some careers questionnaire thingy that was fed into a computer (!) which would then produce your ideal career. mine was zoo keeper :(

-- DG, Thursday, 24 July 2008 11:16 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

Mine was journalist or flowershop owner. Despite the fact I have chronic hay fever. I think the program was called Kudos or Qudos or something

yeah that rings a bell

alternate sugestion: parole officer

You seem to be talking about a pre-university careers bureau, but I guess they all amount to the same thing. Their job, in my limited experience, is to get your CV spick and span, give you "the talk", and give you loads of leaflets containing handy leads. xpost to ^11

I don't remember the programme having a question relating to whether you suffer chronic hay fever, to be fair

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4281/tynan6in.gif

bah xpost

i remember it being a tiny little place somewhere near the housing office, which almost nobody knew about.

I only knew it was there because I used to read the signs on each door on my way to and from the library. It was next door to the housing office. I never went in, and ended up leaving university with no clue what I wanted to do.

http://www.cascaid.co.uk/home/main.do?section_id=143

^^^here

^^ exactly the kind of non-self aware happy go lucky ambition that makes directionless humanities graduates choke to death on their own resentment

xpost status intentionally left ambiguous

Hey, I'll have you know I was a directionless Social Sciences graduate!

sorry man you just kind of got caught up in the xpost frenzy there

http://www.freedesktopwallpapers.ru/movies/images/collateral_damage.jpg

http://www.workingatmcmaster.ca/med/photo/zoom/eohss-house-fire-1--10.jpg

Cathy depressingly OTM all the way through this thread.

I'm glad I took the afternoon off from my not-quite-graduate-level job (in a UNIVERSITY) that I've been in sort of for six years since graduating and that pays my mortgage and gives me enough time and opportunity to write about muziks on thar internets to go for a walk along the canal with my girlfriend and get sunburnt rather than read this DREADFUL OFFENSIVE thread mocking me and my kind. Did I mention that my girlfriend's dad paid our deposit with money he earned selling financial software and IT solutions to Iraqi banks? No, awesome; he did. We're about to buy another pedigree cat. I listen to jazz and drink red wine. My dad left school at 16. My mum trained as a PE teacher but got crippled. Most 18 year olds aren't ready for academic study, no, BUT, most degrees these days involve much more putting together a powerpoint presentation using googled statistics about 'business' then they do in depth cogitation on intellectual conundrums. Where you temping at the moment, Dom?

The other night I SPLASHED PAINT on a cheap canvas a la that dead guy and hung it in our hall!

at school we did some careers questionnaire thingy that was fed into a computer (!) which would then produce your ideal career. mine was zoo keeper :(

-- DG, Thursday, 24 July 2008 11:16 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

Mine was journalist or flowershop owner. Despite the fact I have chronic hay fever. I think the program was called Kudos or Qudos or something

DolQu

Where you temping at the moment, Dom?

-- Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 24 July 2008 11:35 (57 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

Dude, I have a full time journo gig now.

http://www.beattrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/070-50-cent.jpg

^^^me, yesterday

give it ten years and nick will be the english seward :)

(huge compliment btw)

Dude, I have a full time journo gig now.

ilx publishing ltd?

Where's that, Dom?

mine was zoo keeper

DG for chief mod of ILX, then.

Cos, like, full-time local journos with postgrad certs in journalism generally earn less than me and I don't earn that much. My ambition is to bully Em into senior management roles in uni administration so I can be a house husband.

Don't understand the Seward remark. Know Scott is a poster on here but don't really get it as I don't really know him?

High-end B2B sector

wtf does that mean?

Winehouse fanzine?

It means that CEOs and bankers spend £1,400 a year to get 12 copies of magazines that I put together

you in the NUJ, dom? see that thoroughly depressing piece in their astonishingly piss-poor "journalist" magazine showing how london magazine subs' pay has actually decreased in the last x years?

DG for chief mod of ILX, then.

well duh

If you want to commission an article on dynamic range compression, I'm your man.

Can people please talk about Batman now?

Scott is AFAIK late-thirties/early-forties, music guru whose word is deed, completely respected, lives at home with wife and kids, drinks wine, gets sent promos by the sackload, listens to every single one on quality headphones/stereo system, has the enthusiasm of a kid and the wisdom of a tai chi master, doesn't give a shit what people think of him, is basically awesome

Scott would have washed his hands of this one years ago, yeah :)

Or maybe started image-bombing it (although that said it's actually become quite interesting so maybe not)

http://www.theendrecords.com/media/moob_theruiner_album_large.jpg

She's too skinny for Dom.

It means that CEOs and bankers spend £1,400 a year to get 12 copies of magazines that I put together

-- The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics, Thursday, 24 July 2008 10:46 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

This may be why CEOs and bankers are doing so well at the moment.

dude, buying pedigree cats? LOWEST OF THE LOW

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/njsouthall/IMG_0544.jpg

I don't think posting inappropriate images to the thread is going to help anyone.

i wish i would have studied business

I just remembered that someone said way upthread sth like: 'your 2:1 in English from Sussex + job at Pizza Hut won't be worth much to employers'. And doubtless they knew what they were talking about. It's a bit of a shame, though, because the standard of the English degree at Sussex is actually very high. Their 2:1s come over as pretty bright to me. Maybe they're all rich, middle-class or something.

What Cathy actually said was "their 2:1 from Sussex in English and 2 summers working in Pizza Hut and one in a call centre don't stand out from everyone else's" - which is slightly different from "won't be worth much to employers".

As someone who has cast an eye over literally thousands of graduate CVs in my time, you will be standing out from everyone else if you can spell correctly and get your own telephone number right.

Well, by 'everyone else' I mean '70% of other people'.

Very few employers recognise the relative worth of any particular non-vocational degree over any other when you are applying for a wide range of jobs though. And more often than not, HR bods haven't done such a degree themselves and don't recognise the discipline and maturity or whatever that people who have chosen that route have learned as a result. I have lost track of the number of interviews where I have been asked why I didn't do something with my degree (it's in Philosophy, what do you suggest I do with it, exactly?). I weep at the CVs I have seen with simple grammatical and spelling errors, and then remember that other people reading them don't notice anything wrong because they had similar errors on their own. Last year I had to return the proof of a whole leaflet for promoting our department put together by the marketing department (stuffed full of bright young graduate things, naturally) then sob into my coffee as they discounted everything I'd pointed out because my degree wasn't in marketing so I didn't know their job as well as they did. Fuck off, I can still spell, I can use an apostrophe correctly and can spell the name of the street I work in!

ah but can you do it with pizazz?

You misspelled pizzas there.

or with pizzas? xp :(

means that CEOs and bankers spend £1,400 a year to get 12 copies of magazines that I put together

so basically your argument is that if you can succeed with kindergarten skills - like gluing together magazines - you shouldn't be any better-educated.

education has a public/civic purpose; it ain't just there to help you get a job

Matt how about using a distinctive font e.g. one that presents your information coherently but also makes you look bubbly and fun

I'm sure I have related before the tale of a CV for someone applying for a job I was leaving who included a sentence beginning with the phrase "As a typical Libran..." as part of her personal profile AND SHE GOT AN INTERVIEW. Wacky fun horoscope-lovin' japester!

Who needs an education when you can just be born at the right time of year?

maybe she meant 'lesbian'

was the job a librarian?

What classification did you get in the end, LJ? 2:1?

http://internationalmixtapeproject.com/imageDB/view.php?file=3135

I weep at the CVs I have seen with simple grammatical and spelling errors, and then remember that other people reading them don't notice anything wrong because they had similar errors on their own.

I work at a recruitment agency (although not for much longer, I'm being made redundant). I should dig out examples of some of the memos one of our recruitment consultants used to send to my manager. He was verging on illiterate; my manager would send them to me first for translation.

I weep at the CVs I have seen with simple grammatical and spelling errors...

-- ailsa, Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:50 PM

apparently those sorts of things are irrelevant, along with attention to detail and simply making sense. exhibit A:

http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l442/acrobins/badresume2.jpg

exhibit B:

http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l442/acrobins/badresume.jpg

also, Lee McQueen to thread (with apologies to non-UK readers/non Apprentice viewers)

at least he did a mean pterodactyl impression

How did you get ahold of my coworkers' résumés, salsa shark?

Quoted from Lee McQueen's CV: “Today’s goals will be different from tommorrows until I finally fulfill my ambtion to be recoingsed”

It is interesting that this thread's focus of "not working in what you studied" seems mainly aimed at humanities/liberal arts, which are so generic as to lend a grad to god knows what career anyway.

This is a good point. I always thought that was the point of a liberal arts education, to give you a good grounding in analytical skills that could really be applied to anything. The specific major might guide you toward a particular career, but it's also just a way to keep you focused while you're there.

I suppose the English B.A. on my resume was attractive to my employers in the publishing industry, but at the same time, I learned most of the grammatical rules I rely upon for my job before I even entered college. Instead, what the degree did for me was taught me how to craft an argument, to apply insights, to conduct research, etc. -- all of which I could've learned as a history or philosophy or psychology major, too. I just chose English because I was good at writing and liked talking about books.

Taken from here, btw, which helpfully bolded the mistakes, except didn't notice that it's spelled fulfil not fulfill:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/latest/2008/06/11/apprentice-winner-lee-mcqueen-s-top-10-moments-115875-20603662/

Is getting recoingsed fun? It sounds fun.

except didn't notice that it's spelled fulfil not fulfill:

"Fulfill" is American English.

He's not American, neither was the newspaper showing his errors.

I kind of like the "encouraging person" line in SS's first CV.

I'd throw out the second one for the script font alone.

I would accept that second one if it came rolled up in a scroll and hand-delivered by a town crier.

The best one I've ever seen was done in script font and every line of text was a different colour of the standard rainbow, INCLUDING impossible-to-read-on-white-paper yellow. I tried to convince the manager to give the guy an interview just out of morbid curiosity but he wouldn't hear of it.

Caek, I got a 2:1, which is by a huge stretch the mode classification for English lit Humanities at Cambridge probably any university in the country. Comparatively few people get less than a 2:1, and those that do would probably have been better off in hindsight not doing the course (but that's a different argument). Being a big ol' doctor I take it you did rather better than that, in sciences too, and I can only doff my hypothetical mortar-board at you.

Speaking of which, I wonder what Dom makes of academics? My dear ladyfriend is going to complete her PhD next year, and is very likely to accept a fellowship post at her college. Does Britain have too many academics wasting government money, or is it a valid career-choice?

I have 3 degrees, and work part-time, and now I've decided to go to art school. I am terrible person.

I have one and, after being accepted to a couple MA programs in the same subject, got really panicky and realised that maybe I didn't want to be pigeonholing myself into a lifetime of academia, which is all the MA in question is really good for.

I have one (and a useless post-grad) and by Louis' lofty criteria, I probably shouldn't have bothered my arse going to university at all. But it got me out of my home town and taught me a whole bunch of stuff I wouldn't have had access to otherwise, and although circumstances prevented me doing as well as I could, it certainly didn't harm me in any way.

And, erm, I'm temping. But this is temping in the actual temporary sense, and I'm reassessing my options right now, having got thoroughly fed up with my past career. I don't really define myself by any of this particularly, FWIW.

do a phd instead of an ma. i can't think of anything an ma is really good for :(

i mean, if you want to be in academia.

My dear ladyfriend is going to complete her PhD next year

Older woman, huh? Unless somehow it's possible to manage a PhD in a year in the UK, which would be ridiculous.

4 years older, yeah.

Ailsa, I didn't mean to sound patronising or harsh or whatever, I was just raising a point that plenty of people have made, which is that many employers will only take your Humanities degree into account if you got at least a 2:1. If on the other hand you had a great time and found a way of life, made your mistakes and left with few regrets then super! Who am I to begrudge you your experiences?

I've always been led to believe the MA is sort of a necessary evil in order to get to the PhD stage. Not that I really want to do either at this point — I'm not denying it as a possibility later on, but I'm okay with working (and for the record, no, I'm not temping, although my job is pretty comedy) for the time being; maybe trying to get a job in something non-academic-y that I'm interested in. Dunno. Just seems like a bad idea to put in time/effort/money for an MA I'm not sure about. Maybe I'm just lazy.

Also, I didn't say "not go to university", I said "not do the course". Hindsight should be banned anyway. Forget I said anything.

I'd have fucked up any course, fwiw. Consider it forgotten.

I have learned from this thread one very important thing: that Scik is getting another BOBKITTEN!!!! yay

jaymc: someone in my year completed their PhD in 2.5 years, so stranger thigns have probably happened.

LJ: yes, 2:1 is what they aim for (lol grade inflation). Here's the Oxford physics stats. The BA (three year) students tend to be much weaker (with a few exceptions that choose to finish in three years, the only ones who do it are those who are told they did too poorly in the first two years to do the 4 year).

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f325/caek/Picture1-7.png

Speaking of lol grade inflation, this is some awesome trolling. It's what I imagine Dom would write if he did a PhD: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402674

jaymc: someone in my year completed their PhD in 2.5 years, so stranger thigns have probably happened.

like literacy.

i know of people who finished a PhD in under a year, and of more people who had enough for a PhD in under year, but didn't take the degree until later, because there was no need to. this is very exceptional, though. plenty of people manage under 3 years in the UK.

Being a big ol' doctor I take it you did rather better than that, in sciences too, and I can only doff my hypothetical mortar-board at you.

Not so much: I haven't finished my doctorate yet and I scraped a First (40th in the year, they gave Firsts to the first 42 people). But yes, it was in a hardman subject.

I got an award for my dissertation on the usage and usability of electronic medical databases. Blimey!

I went around telling people that I was "an award winning academic" for a few weeks, until it got boring/no-one was talking to me anymore.

Great article, caek! Like you say, it's probably exaggerating slightly and applying the rule of the rich upon EVERY Harvard student in a juicily Passantino-esque manner but I find it hard to disagree with its sentiments.

Members of the third type, the ironists and the scoffers, have their degree and eat it too, since their anti-Harvard posturing carries no real risks.

*shameface* :(

An MA is not a necessary evil. That is a terrible way to refer to an MA. It ought to be a rewarding part of one's education or life. For me personally, I often felt that I intellectually learned or developed more, or faster, during my MA year than any other - certainly including my PhD years. Or maybe I just mean that at that time, I had a strong sense of the thrill of learning.

Who am I to begrudge you your experiences?

this might be the first genuinely perceptive thought that lj has posted, and i think one that others would do well to think on

or: if you're going to hate on people, hate on 'em for ~actual reasons~ rather than how they're trying to muddle through life as easily as possible

Yes, actual reasons like enjoying guitars

I want to know what Dom thinks of people like me who did not go to university at all - I worked in the civil service right out of school for six years, then took a year off and started a TAFE course (ie, more practical based tech college) in writing/editing/multimedia, just for the general skillset and fun of it. Then left my job in the govt and moved into IT with some of my newfound skills.

But I'm a dumbfuck and didnt study at uni. So I'm bad and horrible and no good, right? I should know my place and go work in a shop or something?

No, Trayce, I think you're OK because you didn't waste a university place that could have gone to someone else like me (working class, no-one in my family had ever gone on to further education), who could then throw it all away by not doing the best that I could with it and be sneered at for being a temp. Hang on, I was in the deserving category then moved on to the other one. Below the lowest of the low, squandering the chances that people like you gave me.

This whole thread rests on the big assumption that it was a working class kid with good grades being kept out, and not some braying posho who fucked up their A-Levels beyond all measure.

Or, more likely, an uninspiring middle-class kid with uninspiring grades and no other achievements to set them apart.

Not to mention the fact that there's actually a surplus of university places in the country as any clearing handbook will tell you. It's not like every graduate working in a cake shop has caused someone else to drop off the bottom of the ladder, and that's without even bringing into the equation the thousands of highly lucrative foreign students that come here to study each year.

Yes, actual reasons like enjoying guitars

Lol, spot the person who's never met any of the Lex's friends.

This thread title is basically describing everyone that stays in Brighton after graduating. Apart from the ones that commute to London.

wish i had gone to Brighton ha

I wasn't reading this thread yesterday, but just to be clear: "2:1 in English from Sussex" wasn't meant to be in any way derogatory or sneering. It was supposed to signify a "good degree" which due to the large numbers of people who manage to get similarly good degrees is not enough on its own to automatically qualify anyone for a graduate job on a graduate salary when they leave university.

i don't put my degree 'score' on my CV. is that an obvious sign that it's lower than 2:1 or do people really not give a flying fuck once you've amassed a few years of experience?

http://www.irishtownship.com/images/tutu_pics/desmond_tutu.jpg

just slip this in, make it a bit subtler

Knowing the (lack of) value of my 2:1 from Sussex I have sagely supplemented my CV with lies.

LOL B Right On.

The most sensible thing I've read on this whole thread was Cathy's initial post. No, a 2:1 from Sussex is great, but it's hard to make an arts degree work for you if you can't compete on a few of the other levels and you do get lumbered by desperate service job experience if you are from a family who doesn't know the form for going to uni, or you're a scholarship kid or whatever. I was pretty alert to that possibility in college/uni, did an internship for free at a magazine and decided never to 'experience' unpaid work again; times were such that I didn't have to. Rich kids used to have moral dilemmas about internships back when wealthier parents were not so keen to subsidise their offspring; now, not so much...if at all. Who wants to work with smelly poor people anyway? :D

I've lost track of all the responses here, but has anyone mentioned the opposite of this phenomenon? You know: people who are undertrained or generally incompetent who acquire jobs far beyond what they are capable of. I deal with people like that constantly, and it's far easier to be disgusted by them IMO (especially when they adversely affect the quality of other people's work).

yeah they are the real scum

This whole thread rests on the big assumption that it was a working class kid with good grades being kept out, and not some braying posho who fucked up their A-Levels beyond all measure

You are surely not suggesting that Dom's worldview is anything but wholly grounded in reality and sympathetic to the complexity of humankind. Surely that is not what you mean to suggest.

Deric, you may have heard of the music industry, where idiot men fail upward for 20 years until they can fail their way into a few directorships or fleece a group on the sly.

I'm sorry, after seeing how political maneuvering alone is enough to help complete chowderheads advance to positions way beyond them, I've become a huge fan of the idea of a meritocracy.

http://www.brazencareerist.com/2008/07/11/networking-what-your-liberal-arts-degree-was-made-for/

Classic material.

Y'know, when you've got no money to buy a car or get a house anywhere near a decent place of work and no industry contacts and fuck all experience in that chosen industry despite the fact that every job advertised requires you to have at least three years in a similar role even though the job title is "Office Sub-Junior Toilet Scrubber" and the only alternative is to spend £40 a day shimmying up to the capital on a £100 a week, 10-hour day, 8-month internship, then yeah I think being called the "lowest of the low" is a nice hard kick in the cranium don't ya think?

― the next grozart, Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:05 PM (3 months ago) Bookmark

I sort of feel like this. Only my problem is not no industry contacts and fuck all experience in that chosen industry, it's the fact that there are NO JOBS in that industry below the executive level right now. Fuck the economy, I'll take office temping if I can.

I totally understand. And ffs, it's not like University is a trade school. Higher education can definitely grease the wheels for employment, but I thought my parents were the only ones who thought they handed you a job when you left. I had hoped that idea had died 20 years ago.

I can count on both hands the number of friends I have who are NOT in any way working in the field in which they studied. And half of them, including me, wandered around in circles for a good long while. So what? I don't know any of them that resent or are ungrateful for the education they gained, and who says it's wasted anyway?

To the thread topic in general, I'd suggest that it's better that we have a system that allows people to seek and achieve higher education, in the classic old fashioned sense that it expands horizons and hopefully challenges your ways of thinking. The 'waste' of an education lies entirely in the eyes of the beholder...

oy. got carried away... sorry for being a threadkiller!

vegemite girrrrrrrrrrrrrlllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

She's back and watching more RiffTrax than ever! (Surely.)

Cinematic Titanic, actually. (Does that make me a secessionist?)

Not at all.

Even people I know who studied very specific things at uni (eg law) have had great dramas getting or keeping jobs in the legal arena.

And teaching too - you'd think we'd be desperate for good teachers but I know quite a few who find it fairly hard to get placements (and they're not being picky and turning down rural ones and such).

Half my friends studied Engineering...they pretty much designed that course to chuck half the students after first year, let alone graduate.

So far I'm doing the Office Temp thing but I graduated in May so I hope that gives me a little time. Damn Bush economy...

There is something to be said for the "classical" model of education as a means of becoming a culturally literate and contributing citizen. The "better citizen" part now seems to only exist in terms of becoming an employable, tax-paying citizen, but I'm serious.

higher education is as much about growing up as anything else.

Although I'm unemployed I'm feeling pretty lucky at the moment in that I can apply for internal jobs with BBC having just finished a traineeship there. Even in the current climate I know I'll get something there eventually. Having seen what's out there in the media other than this I think that's a major relief.

I think it's less "better citizen" and more "better consumer", although I'm fairly sure for a long long time those two have really been interchangeable.

I remember in elementary school, right after being taught how to read with simple See Spot books and all that, that the first thing we ever read and learned about that was written in full sentences was a layout of the capitalist system. I remember being in second or third grade or whenever that was and looking at these bold faced words and their definitions. Words like goods, consumer, market, etc. They were strange, they were unnatural, they were abstract and didn't have any connection to real life. If it wasn't for my parents who talked with me rather than plumped me in front of a TV for the previous years of my life, capitalism/the market system would have been the first abstract concert to enter my young mind. I'm sure for many kids in that class, it was.

Wow, really? I don't remember having a lesson like that until middle or high school history, learning about the Industrial Revolution & Enlightenment. The abstract concepts I got indoctrinated with in elementary school were "democracy" and "rights" (which probably explains a lot about me now). There was a required economics course in high school, but I do actually think of that as an important citizenship course, basic economics is important when everything from school budgets to national elections relates to tax policy.

There are going to be a ludicrous number of these people out there in the next couple of years.

Dom lobs a revive-grenade...

I swear to god. Maybe it was an economics class but I vividly remember it being like the first day of school, the teacher saying "Ok class, get out your books and turn to page 1", me thinking "Wow, my first ever textbook, wonder what I'll learn?" and then encountering this cumbersome and absurd thing known as free market capitalism. Any societal disillusionment I developed when I was in my teenage years, I can trace it all back to that moment.

You know what they say about dudes with tiny carbon footprints...

Instead of studying something more practical than the weird combination of sociopolitical theory and geography that I studied, I wish I had read Das Kapital a few times with my favorite professor and learned how to use a gun.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

(Ron comes in w/ TV Eye riff...)

so did you get degree or drop out? what happened i am confused xp

all i'll say is: welcome to the rest of my life

this shit is making me so ridiculously desperate to get a useful MA like right now

these people are called "lucky" in this economy

this shit is making me so ridiculously desperate to get a useful MA like right now

― salsa shark, Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:27 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

after two years as a student i just want a shitty fuckin job that pays enough for booze and rent tbqh.

^^^^^^ this

working in a video store was the best job ive ever had by a long shot

"video store"? aren't you like 20?

on paper my first post-grad job was the best i've ever had :(

not really in practice tho

if id stuck in the nhs id probably be on marcello money by now :/

so many coins to toss

lol very good!

farewell innocence

(they also vend classical music and jazz!)

after two years as a student i just want a shitty fuckin job that pays enough for booze and rent tbqh.

― FREE DOM AND ETHAN (special guest stars mark bronson), Tuesday, March 24, 2009 6:32 AM Bookmark

ayo :/

I don't think video stores have been around long enough for anyone (unless they died young) to have spent the rest of their lives working at one. I think just about every job I had in my 20s was pretty crappy and low-paying. Eventually, I think most people in that position end up deciding whether it's more important that their job be less crappy or less low-paying and live their 30s accordingly.

I would give someone a break if they were only a few years out of college and doing this. I know people with BBA's who had to work for chicken feed when they were out of college, not to mention the staggering loans and the hazing that goes on.

This is more media b.s. The way some business majors are treated out of college would scare anyone into, you know, pouring coffee while taking grad classes.

On the other hand if you spend more than five years at that video store you either love the video business or have a vocation on the side like art or music.

or you're stuck at a bad job in a shitty economy!

This thread set out to achieve exactly what it meant and managed to troll me into a depressive breakdown back when it first came out. Let's not revive it again.