2008 USP(G)ET pt. II: counting the days to 2012 primary thread 1

Because J0hn D made a sensible suggestion

Anyone see the forum on third parties on C-SPAN last night? McKinney, Paul, Nader etc.

Paul definitively said he wouldn't endorse McCain as he didn't want to destroy whatever credibility he's built up over 30 years. So that post during the RNC that said otherwise was bullshit.

fuck this election.

Paul...didn't want to destroy...credibility he's built up

my new tattoo

OK, so I was looking for a picture of some paul supporters to demonstrate his credibility and found this instead:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2846509952_9fddab936d.jpg?v=0

http://www.flickr.com/photos/newshour/2846509952/

uh

gotta love how they didn't have the aesthetic sense to copy the original and/or know that the eye will naturally assume it's an Obama shirt with the now-iconic design, so they have to put a lame "McCain + Palin" at the bottom in a font they clearly spent at least five seconds deciding on

Ed, what about your big convention report thingy?

I am typing that now.

YAY.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IMWFWUgeFg4/SLmlFVSgPBI/AAAAAAAAARU/WhYYyuz-9lc/s1600-h/bear+done.jpg

wai is that broked???

blogspot.com

Paul definitively said he wouldn't endorse McCain as he didn't want to destroy whatever credibility he's built up over 30 years. So that post during the RNC that said otherwise was bullshit.

Cap'n-Save-a-Racist-Nativist-Freakshow

(Paleo-Con)

So it's come to stealin' andtwat's act, eh?

weak

Paleontology v. Palintology...

the more iffy obama's chances of winning seem, the less 'charming' morbius' 'independent' act is

you should have put all of the words in the second half of that sentence in quotes

I would be scared of all this scare quotes.

Men have known how to divide and rule women ever since the invention of original sin and a candidate like Palin is a genius pick on that level. I'm getting OMG she's an endtime jeeebus freak email from the strangest, most straitlaced people, but people with Republican Stockholm Syndrome who drink in sports bars think Palin is spunky.

hey guys, here's a tip

STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE POLITICAL STYLINGS OF DR MORBIUS

There are plenty of undecided/wavering voters out there; you don't need to spend time on the Internet showing concern about a left-leaning guy in a Democratic state.

yeah, tell O to pour $ into Bob Barr's campaign in red states! That might save him.

only y ou can do it, morbs

god this is horrible i get sick i can't even think about this they are going to fucking win i can feel it in my gut this feels like a minnesota vikings game where we're ahead on the 4th but then you feel something slipping...like the air changes and fuck it's like you know you are done, then they fumble and the other team recovers and all of a sudden the momentum is totally shifted and seriously people are going to elect this corrupt old fool and that vacant chick and it's like the way the media spins this shit there's no amount of awesome stuff obama can even say because the whole dialogue is rigged anyway fuck man...like and if we can't even win THIS election like what are the chances that we'll EVER win a fucking election ever again, being totally serious

copying from the other thread 'cause the other thread should move over here. matt I feel you, the momentum shift is kinda "wtf," but this "ever again" bit is silliness. look at history. absolutely nothing is permanent, even though "we have arrived at the solution!" is a popular political sentiment and it always sounds scary coming from the other side.

I would suggest that the other thread be locked, except this thread's title is so bad.

i think it's appropriate, it sounds like some horrible federal acronym

I love this thread's title! it reads like a government protocol manual chapter subheader!

xpost!!!!

hi fives

Puget > PG&E

now that the other thread where I was a dick a lot of the time is closed, I am making a general election promise to not be a dick

so vote for me you assholes

fuck you pay me

in TAX CUTS

My Friends..

not to be captain save-a-moosehunter but i think its important to realize that the conservative base, for all its woman-hating, has always relied on COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS at the grassroots who were, essentially, PTA and churchgoing women - lots of small towns/local govts across the country are run by or are very much impacted by women involved in public life. Palin is very much a part of a long tradition of female activists within the conservative movement and it doesnt do us any good to pretend otherwise.

A case study of the conservative movement in Los Angeles and its suburbs suggests that yes, women were important actors in the postwar conservative ascendancy. If we look below the surface of formal politics, especially in the conservative stronghold of southern California, we see a very feminine world of grassroots activism. Southern California women show us that postwar gender norms created room for a highly effective female sphere of activism. They also demonstrate that the 1950s revival of domesticity had a politically radicalizing effect on many women. Groups of predominantly white, middle-, and upper-class wives and mothers took advantage of their privileged social circumstances to become militant anticommunist crusaders. By measuring the reach of their political activism and evaluating its impact, we see that women's clubs were important incubators of McCarthyism and that housewife activists played a critical role in mobilizing the grassroots base of the conservative movement.

i know about this cuz i read a book about o.c. conservative women activists back in an lol college course on the history of conservatism, but i cant rememeber the name of it off the top of my head

i have hope that once this election finally turns back into obama vs mccain (post-debates or something? idk) that obama will pull away a little. or maybe all of palin's scandals will eventually topple her credibility, esp if the media starts to run with some of these other ones the way they kind of have with the bridge to nowhere. really anticipating biden dicing her in the debate re: her lies. we'll see if it actually happens.

as of now i still prefer to live in a world where everyone is sensible and will not vote for these frauds. still planning to voluntarily step into oncoming traffic on i-70 on nov 5 though

yeah, Obama's celebrity is backed by actual credibility, whereas Palin's is prob going to fade as people realize she's a moron

this was two days ago, don't know if it's been covered here, but it's more make-a-lefty-feel-misty/give-righties-soundbites ("he said Iraq isn't important!" stuff. but the point of it is the volume rise at the end, which an AP story points out is a change in strategy.

If the election goes wrong, I'm going to throw myself on the mercy of English, Irish and Dutch friends, anybody who can hide me out Anne Frank stylee for a few decades.

Obama's celebrity is backed by actual credibility

oh, FISA, oh don't you cry for meee....

lol "Barack the bombthrower"

copying from the other thread 'cause the other thread should move over here. matt I feel you, the momentum shift is kinda "wtf," but this "ever again" bit is silliness. look at history. absolutely nothing is permanent, even though "we have arrived at the solution!" is a popular political sentiment and it always sounds scary coming from the other side.

You know, I'm no longer concerned about history. When Bush was re-elected, I told myself, "Well, the nation endured Grant and Garfield and Arthur and those guys. It can't crumble too much in four years."

But now, I'm realizing that I've "only" got four or five decades left here, that I'm likely going to be an elderly man when I finally see another Chief Justice, so yes, the opportunity to lose yet another election, especially when we've got a guy like Obama, is a bit frightening.

by "credibility" I don't really mean actual credibility -- I mean I think Obama has the political wisdom to be able to sustain ppl's faith in him, whereas the Palin thing seems like it could collapse much more easily

I wonder if McCain will get a boost in the polls from the 9/11 anniversary stuff.

Obama has the ability to control the terms of the debate (something Kerry was horrible at) - I think he'll be aiight

oh, FISA, oh don't you cry for meee....

morbs is not just a Doctor, but a community organizer, law review editor, lawyer, State Senator, United States Senator and Presidential nominee

i'm nervous

P.Plains, this is kind of a weird question on this thread, but not really: does Beeps have joint US/Australian citizenship?

and I WON'T TAKE AWAY YER HANDGUN!

You know, I'm no longer concerned about history. When Bush was re-elected, I told myself, "Well, the nation endured Grant and Garfield and Arthur and those guys. It can't crumble too much in four years."

But now, I'm realizing that I've "only" got four or five decades left here, that I'm likely going to be an elderly man when I finally see another Chief Justice, so yes, the opportunity to lose yet another election, especially when we've got a guy like Obama, is a bit frightening.

― Pleasant Plains, Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:27 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^ award for most depressing post I've ever read on ilx, cheers

nowadays I'm really fucking wishing that the government would take away people's handguns, grrrr

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/barack-obama-on-bell-curve.php

from 1994

wau

Real opportunity would mean quality prenatal care for all women and well-funded and innovative public schools for all children. Real opportunity would mean a job at a living wage for everyone who was willing to work, jobs that can return some structure and dignity to people's lives and give inner-city children something more than a basketball rim to shoot for. In the short run, such ladders of opportunity are going to cost more, not less, than either welfare or affirmative action. But, in the long run, our investment should payoff handsomely. That we fail to make this investment is just plain stupid. It's not the result of an intellectual deficit. It's theresult of a moral deficit.

I don't know what Beeps' citizenship situation is like. She's obviously Merricun for being born here. Yet her mother is an Australian citizen. It might be one of those things she doesn't have to worry about until she's 18.

You're too kind, E3. :-D

that guy

i got oirish citizenship cuz my mom was born there. automatically. maybe australia is the same?

HI DERE FOR PREZ

If, as political scientists like to tell us, this is the time when voters start to pay attention, consider what they’re hearing from Obama and the Democratic Party:

On the Iraq War, Obama was pushed into saying that the “surge worked beyond anyone’s wildest expectations” to the Fox News blowhard, Bill O’Reilly. Despite being an inaccurate – if not completely spineless – position, it effectively handed what was the number one issue directly over to Mr. Surge himself, John McCain.

On energy issues, the Dems are in the middle of doing an about-face on offshore drilling. Instead of showing some spine and sanity in the face of the Republican’s new – and scary – hit chant of “drill baby, drill,” the Dems are flip-flopping like McCain on the issue and, according to The Hill, preparing to help pass new offshore drilling allowances.

On health care, the Obama campaign continues to muddy and muddle through a confusing and all-but-impossible to understand “solution” that will allow the insurance companies and “the market” to remain in control. If it sounds a lot like the Hilary plan of 1993, well, it is. And we all know how that ended up – 15 long years ago. Thanks Dems. Sorry, but any health care plan from the Dems that doesn’t include the words “universal” or “single-payer” is just a pale imitation of the Republicans’ plan. In other words, not much change there.

http://www.counterpunch.org/colby09092008.html

“the market”

but any health care plan from the Dems that doesn’t include the words “universal” or “single-payer” is just a pale imitation of the Republicans’ plan

hey, if you can intone political mantras, you never need to worry about policy substance

nowadays I'm really fucking wishing that the government would take away people's handguns, grrrr

...and give them to you?

raise your hand if you actually understand anything about either candidate's health care policy

(i am not raising my hand :-/ )

those of us who watch the coverage and appreciate nuance understand what else obama said about guns and what audience he was speaking to

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/09/05/obama-im-not-going-to-take-your-guns-away/

Duryea, PA is near Scranton. The number of murders in Scranton in 2006 was zero.

You know, I'm no longer concerned about history.

you're goin' the wrong way PP! you're supposed to get more concerned w/history!

gabbnerd, the supernumerary nipple of Dem propaganda, citing the WSJ...

that blahg stops short of the "handgun" quote.

nowadays I'm really fucking wishing that the government would take away people's handguns, grrrr

...and give them to you?

This time, no. Long story short, my wife has a cousin who was shot and killed earlier this week. He was 19.

But see if HE'D hand a handgun he could have "defended himself".

(Sorry - that sucks, DJP)

That's awful DP, I'm sorry.

ugh, fucking "thanks but no thanks" go jump in a lake you shithead lowbrow rube'

xposts, I'm sorry DP

the handgun quote, dorkius, is from Lebanon, VA, pop. 3200, which recorded 0 murders between 2001 and 2006

very sorry dan : (

Thanks. Been a shitty week.

Woof! Sorry about it, Dan.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080911DailyUpdateGraph1_p1m9n3.gif

We don't live in an age of looking up to authority anymore. We don't cotton to the idea that there are people who are our betters. In this time of "American Idol," bedroom bloggers and the belief that experience, knowledge and education don't necessarily mean a whole lot, Palin is a symbol, a statement that anyone can make it if he or she really tries.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/09/11/ST2008091101260.html

HAHA!! THE FUCK? says you! i don't want anyone just like me running this shit.

yeah that article is full of sad quotes

But the governor of Alaska is winning people over with empathy, which the dictionary says means "understanding and entering into another's feelings,"

how do I shot journalist

"journalist"

US of Dumb Militarists

(and Bam knows it, that's what he wants to head)

But, as Allison McGarvey, a teacher who lives in Stafford County, said, Palin is "a courageous woman, and what she doesn't know, she can learn quickly. Let's face it, no president knows all the issues. Anyway, I don't see how a candidate can pick one stand and just stick to it. The world situation changes every day. It's their moral and ethical background that's important."

Now ask her why she didn't vote for Kerry...

hai gais how are you hey it looks like ilx is back up, ps fuck sarah palin & sen. john mccain basically

so is there some kind of McCain-Obama debate tonight...? What is this "Forum" on "service" that CNN keeps advertising

David "Banalities" Broder:

But instead of reserving judgment, many of the Republicans I talked to in Washington have started a premature celebration, while their Democratic counterparts have panicked and called for Obama to "start fighting."

The two reactions were based on suspiciously large shifts the Post poll and others reported among some voter groups -- especially white women -- and on some issues. McCain vaulted past Obama among those women and scored big gains on the economy and on the capacity to change Washington. I call those shifts "suspiciously large," not because I doubt the accuracy or the methodology on the surveys but because the years have taught me that such swerves in voter opinion are likely to be temporary.

What we know is that the American people take the choice of a new president very seriously -- especially when their nation is at war and the economy is behaving in a way that causes real concern.

Relatively few Americans have ever cast a ballot for either McCain or Obama. McCain, after two presidential campaigns and a long career in Congress, is comparatively familiar. But Obama came onto the public's radar screen only this year, and Biden and Palin are still strangers to most of their fellow citizens.

The curiosity about all four is intense, which means that the learning process may go relatively quickly. But because voters know that they have until Nov. 4 to figure out their choice, those who are less partisan and more independent will take their time.

They will search carefully for clues that can give them confidence that they are making the right choice. Those clues may come in displays of character, in policy promises or in endorsements by trusted sources. Informal conversations among friends and family will be as important as TV ads or the candidates' speeches.

Multiply these factors by the political geography of this 51-part election, with nearly a dozen plausible tossup states, and the uncertainty of the outcome is overwhelming. We may go well into October and not know who will be succeeding George W. Bush.

Some find this unsettling and unacceptable, and they give full license to their emotions of joy or despair. I find it wonderful, even inspiring. This has been -- and remains -- the election of a lifetime.

Shakey: To commemorate 9-11, Obama and McCain are both flying a plane into the Empire State Building.

awesome

to the tune of "Barracuda" I hope

They will search carefully for clues that can give them confidence that they are making the right choice. Those clues may come in displays of character, in policy promises or in endorsements by trusted sources. Informal conversations among friends and family will be as important as TV ads or the candidates' speeches.

what, exactly, is the press for? how, exactly, can you write the above, and remain employed?

i've never hated the "MSM" more than i have in the last week.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-ap-chafee-palin,0,7590944.story

Former GOP Sen. Lincoln Chafee calls McCain running mate Sarah Palin a 'cocky wacko'

haha, chaffee is cool

"Cocky wacko" has a certain ring to it.

McCain/Cocky Wacko '08

Wacky Cocko

Baracky Cockbama

Gee, what a shock: Look at the what the top Google result already is for "cocky wacko."

Michelle Malkin » RINO tool calls Palin “cocky wacko”Sep 11, 2008 ... Lincoln Chafee has called vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin a “cocky wacko” and said her selection as John McCain’s running mate has ...
michellemalkin.com/2008/09/11/rino-tool-calls-palin-cocky-wacko/

Followed by the AP story on Yahoo! News and then a bunch of newspaper websites running the AP story. And we wonder why our media concentrates on these distractions.

xpost I LOLED

in my experience calling a girl annoying is guy for "im gonna try and fuck that chick". its an instant break up in my book.

-- sunny successor, Wednesday, March 5, 2008 1:47 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

sarah palin is a perfect example of that rule in action

http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/11/blagojevich-goes-off-message-tactical-mistake-for-dems-to-question-palins-experience/

blagojevich is such a fucking tool
why the fuck he bothered to take rezko's ass out his mouth long enough to say this i will never understand

pls, xp

wilc: wacko I'd like to cock

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html

...the second rule of moral psychology is that morality is not just about how we treat each other (as most liberals think); it is also about binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, and living in a sanctified and noble way. When Republicans say that Democrats "just don't get it," this is the "it" to which they refer.

McCrazy/Barracuda vs FISA Man/MBNA Joe

Dr Morbius vs Humor

haha, I killed humor long ago.

who the fuck are you again?

lol @ morbs

Palin has hit the Democrat campaign like a fucking hellfire missile, hasn't she? I might have known that if America ever had a Margaret Thatcher-like figure, they'd go nuts for her.
The question now is, not can Palin help McCain's campaign, but will McCain hinder Palin's progress? Because he is a dithering idiot. Palin though...

lolz Palin couldn't be further from Thatcher

Thatcher had what, 25 years of public service under her belt before becoming PM...? And she was hardly a provincial lower-class hick from the hill country or whatever.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTg3MWViMGRmYzYyYTcwZmMwMmY1ZjJhNDM1Y2U0MzQ=

fucking idiots

http://img.polyvore.com:80/cgi/img-set/BQcDAAAAAwoDanBnAAAABC5vdXQKFndLbmx3QzdZM0JHMmVXek95MHEwWEEAAAACaWQKAXgAAAAEc2l6ZQ.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/09/10/LIPSTICKPIG512.jpg

uhhhhh

so is the deal that Biden is only going to be in the headlines if he fucks up?

Biden will be in the headlines if he delivers any good zingers, which is possible.

On the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history, Gov. Sarah Palin took a hard-line approach on national security and said that war with Russia may be necessary if that nation invades another country.

fun

i liked some things about the 80's.

source that quote please

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5778018&page=1

hahahahaha oh man the fun begins

cuz what this country needs/wants is ANOTHER war, this time one with a nuclear power! YEAH!

Dear Jesus, please let people start to realize how crazy Sarah Palin is. thank you, o. nate

good on gibson for leaning on her about the "god's plan" quote, he is a partisan hack 99.9% of the time and I wouldn't have expected him to bother.

Sorry, Nate, she and her peeps have all the prayer time booked from now til the 2nd coming.

jesus christ she is so nutty

we can invade by crossing the bering strait on a herd of moose!! Let's do it!

Guys, this is Charlie Gibson. He's going to buckle under.

Oh man, I love that Citgo is the sponsor of that clip.

if he got obnoxious like O'RLY did with Obama, she would probably crack.

"You know I don't know if that was my exact quote -"
"Exact words."

I like how that headline considers recommending that we got to war with Russia "hard line" and not "completely insane"

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/09/clinton_obama_w.html

Speaking briefly with reporters before their private lunch today in New York, Barack Obama and Bill Clinton voiced optimism about Obama's chances in the fall.

The two leading Democrats, whose relationship was less-than-warm during Obama's tough fight with Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary, dined together at Clinton's Harlem office. Asked for his assessment of the race, Clinton said, "I predict that Senator Obama will win and win pretty handily."

please let people start to realize how crazy Sarah Palin is

jesus christ she is so nutty

I mean yeah she is nutz but it's not like she came up with War On Russia by herself, that's McCain's position as spoon-fed to her by his foreign policy advisers (i.e. guys who think Cheney is too liberal)

yep - makes for an easy counter from Obama methinks

Sarah Palin is a red herring & the Palin bump will not be a lasting one

not saying Obama is invincible here but Shakey OTM - if Obama has at least a shred of competence (which he does and then some) this won't shake his campaign

Biden should leap on Palin's bullshit in this interview

ironically palin is also one half of a ticket which is headed by a guy who's about to die

so ironic

Who asked about Joseph Biden?

Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., the Democrats’ vice presidential candidate, is an experienced, serious and smart man. But, boy, does he say some curious things. A day on the campaign trail without some cringe-inducing gaffe is a rare blessing. He has not been too blessed lately.

Just this week, he mused that Senator Barack Obama might have been better off with Hillary Rodham Clinton as his running mate.

“Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America,” Mr. Biden said Wednesday in Nashua, N.H. “Quite frankly it might have been a better pick than me.”

Earlier in the week, in Columbia, Mo., Mr. Biden urged a paraplegic state official to stand up to be recognized.

“Chuck, stand up, let the people see you,” Mr. Biden shouted to State Senator Chuck Graham, before realizing, to his horror, that Mr. Graham uses a wheelchair.

“Oh, God love ya,” Mr. Biden said. “What am I talking about?”

lolz (altho I don't think the Hillary thing is bad, he's just showing some "humility" there)

HAHA - Charlie Gibson sounds as bored as Fred Thompson at the GOP debates.

byroncrawford Clinton now helping Obama means Clinton knows Obama is gonna lose. about 1 hour ago from web

lolz Clinton "knows"

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080929/berman_ames

http://www.thenation.com/images/mccain.jpg

Sarah Palin is ABRAHAM LINCOLN WITH LIPSTICK.

lol byroncrawford tweets

guys, O'Biden are waiting until after 911.com(TM) to start tearing shit up

I am really hoping the press and the Dems pick up this "let's go to war with Russia!" thing

x-post Gabbneb

Vlad the imPalin was probably backed into the "let's go to war with Russia!" thing by Matt Damon, etc. being all 'this is who we're gonna send up against Putin?!'

even so its a colossally stupid thing to say and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the country is not itching to kick off a nuclear firefight over some country they've never heard of that didn't even exist 10 years ago.

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/6729/mccainofthehillzr1.jpg

Gibson: Do you agree with the Bush Doctrine?
Palin: In what respect, Charlie?
Gibson: What do you interpret it to be?
Palin: His worldview?
Gibson: No, the Bush Doctrine. Enunciated September 2002, before the Iraq War.

guys i know black frames with "YouTube" logo in bottom right corner are mysterious & intriguing but i am not going to click on all of them, context plz?

apols

my top one is some weird AI-bot riff on the theme of obama as antichrist which is quite creepy

second one is a humorous sample of a news presenter talking mccain's 'religious nut eruption'

deej's video is sarah palin being interviewed about her take on the bush doctrine

re: "Not at Her Best" [Kathryn Jean Lopez]

And another e-mail: "Not at her best, huh? Let's see Obama, Biden or McCain do as well in a no subjects barred interview after Gibson had a week to prep. Did you see Obama get his head handed to him on a plate by O'Reilly? No comparison."

no comparison in the sense that one event is real, and the other, utterly fictitious?

(NB I only watched the first night of the Obama/O'Reilly thing)

Yeah, he came off condescending and asked questions of her no one ever thinks to ask The One, like how many countries he’d visited before becoming a senator. The exchanges were chopped to a fine mince too on the editing machine, which is why I didn’t include the bit where he asked her what insight Alaska’s proximity to Russia gives her into their actions and she said, “They’re our next-door neighbors. And you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska.” Did she really give a non-answer that goofy or did they just smear her by editing it that way? I would have given them the benefit of the doubt earlier but not after botching the prayer quote.

That said, it’s pretty clear she doesn’t know what he means by the Bush Doctrine and can’t answer the Pakistan question in anything but platitudes about stopping Islamic extremism. Even the gimme about the 9/11 hijackers’ motivations comes out garbled: She’s trying to make the basic neocon point that terrorism is a problem caused by political repression and solved by democracy, but it sounds as if she’s trying to patch it together from mental index cards, which … may in fact be what she was doing. Or maybe she was just nervous. Or thrown by Gibson’s demeanor. Not good, whichever it is, but 99% of the people who love her won’t care and the 1% who do can probably be brought around with a good interview tomorrow and, especially, a good debate with Biden. Now, tell me how brilliant she was and how wrong I am.

i love the idea that gibson is the leftwing equivalent of o'reilly

hard-hitting, buffalo-style charlie gibson journalism

the obama/o reilly interviews were fascinating

it was great to see him spar with someone, and he was otm and confident most of the time

the olbermann interview was a fukin snooze

I've grown to hate Olbermann in a big way.

i like olbermann in theory but generally speaking, the obviously partisan news personalities all get on my fucking nerves, it makes me long for some probably mythical day in the past when people just reported the fucking news without giving their opinions all the time.

I would settle for relatively partisan, but mostly content-based grousing, like "Senator Whoever said blah blah blah. This reporter would point out that no independent group has confirmed that statistic, and that Congresswoman X has never been a member of the group in question - nor would it be illegal if she had. Thank you, and here's Steve with the weather." The most vexatious thing about political news coverage - and this is obviously not an original thought on my part - is the emphasis on punditry and analysis that only goes as far as whether a given statement will help/hurt anybody, not whether it's actually true, which is what you'd kind of hope for the press to work on.

Confirmed: Obama appearance on SNL this Saturday

Those O'Reilly interviews were pretty brilliant, I thought.

all the fuss over the Gibson interview! She was platitudinous and screechy, but her remark about Russia has been wildly overplayed: if Georgia joins NATO, and it's attacked, then NATO will respond (I didn't think Obama was that great with O'RLY). Most vice presidents are coached by their teams; the bar is set too low for them to show their mettle unless their running mate is lucky enough to die in office.

Maybe ABC will air the rest tomorrow, in which he'll concentrate on issues that really tell us about Palin: her term as governor.

"term"

obama did as well as anyone can w/ that kind of horseshit interviewing. no gaffes, which was basically the opposite of what oreilly was aiming for

I thought Obama pretty much won O'Reilly over. By the end he was deferring to him - calling certain anti-Obama positions bullshit, and flirting about playing basketball with him. He's gonna vote for Obama, I think.

but he's always liked Obama! He's taken gingerly steps around him since January.

yeah all week he's been saying how much he "respects" him since he realized that he was a "driven, determined" person, which he said he could only learn after meeting him face-to-face

i think he's gonna vote for him too

obama did as well as anyone can w/ that kind of horseshit interviewing

he did do well but more to the point was that it was great to see him debate someone without the pressures of being "graded" by clueless talking heads or making sure he doesn't offend another candidate or something

these have been some of o reilly's highest rated shows ever, and not only did he end up deferring to barack in the end but barack proved that he knew his shit (confidently) and he proved it without the chance of being verbose (or "eloquent" or whatever he gets slammed for being) (in that regard o reilly being an argumentative dick turned out to be an unintended positive for barack)

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/_palin_family_shockers_what_sarahs_really_hiding/celebrity/65407

you name your kid "track" of course he's going to shoot up

"Do you agree with the Bush Doctrine?"

wtg charlie gibson

Could just ONE fucking TV pundit not equivocate or add caveats for these two dipshits and pretend they're talking about Clinton getting his dick sucked?

Virginia registration shenanigans:

http://thedailyvoice.com/voice/2008/09/while-the-media-sleeps-001128.php

it isn't just Virginia

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/voter-suppression-industry-gea.php

That reminds me, I meant to link to this great NY Review of Books article talking about the concerted efforts to exclude undesirable voters and their disproportionate racial impact:

Obama: The Price of Being Black

It also contains some scary figures about the so-called "Bradley effect".

The Obama campaign would do well to print signs to post prominently in all its offices: ALWAYS SUBTRACT SEVEN PERCENT!

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/persistent-myth-of-bradley-effect.html

that said i think the 'pollsters underrepresent people with cell phones' thing is just as much of a myth

What's the evidence?

Let's hope that Silver is right and the Bradley effect is a relic of the '80s and '90s. The other stuff about voter suppression is still pretty outrageous though.

i have none, it just seems 1. screamingly obvious, so pollsters would pick up on and adjust for it, and 2. i remember ppl saying it in 2004 and it turned out to be negligible compared to gwb's ground game.

New Obama ad attacking McCain for being email illiterate and a relic of the '80s:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2008/09/obama-on-the-attack.html

Pros:
- Focuses on McCain rather than Palin
- Not overly partisan, crafted to appeal to independents

Cons:
- Might turn off some older voters (though they overwhelmingly support McCain anyway)

this is probably a fake ad that will run like twice, in one county - therefore oldies who don't use the internet will never see it

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/fact-check-pali.html

“Have you ever met a foreign head of state?” Gibson asked Palin Thursday.

“I have not,” Palin said, “and I think if you go back in history and if you ask that question of many vice presidents, they may have the same answer that I just gave you.”

However Palin, who obtained her first passport two years ago, would in fact be the first vice president in 32 years who hadn’t met a foreign head of state, if she were elected.

Palin is a throwback to an earlier, simpler age.

I cannot (this morning) fill in the zing that should come next.

Who had never met a foreign head of state, Dole or Mondale?

lolz @ McCain "I'm divorced from the day-to-day struggles" of Americans comment

Who had never met a foreign head of state, Dole or Mondale?

dunno, but if i had to guess, i'd say it's Dole, because 1) i'd guess that the info came from the campaign and that they're more wont to compare her to (and to have gotten the info from) Dole than Mondale, 2) Mondale had begun his Senate service a few years earlier than Dole, 3) Kansas is more insular than Minnesota, and 4) Dole is more hawkish than Mondale

Who had never met a foreign head of state, Dole or Mondale?

I think Rockefeller. Dole was never VP.

I find it hard to believe Rockefeller would never have met a head of state.

Yeah, I know, but the link points out that Mondale had met with foreign leaders in his 16 years in the Senate prior to becoming VP.

yeah, we all could have read the article. an Ass't Sec'y of State probably doesn't meet with foreign heads of State.

So you're saying you think the article is wrong.

what are you talking about?

Was your previous post not sarcastic?

it was not

gabbneb, you're off your game today.

i'm the one who's right about Rockefeller, bro

On WNYC this morning they said the last VP candidate who hadn't met a foreign head of state was Spiro Agnew, though he may actually have had meetings with some fairly high-level people from foreign governments. And going back to the beginning of the 20th Century, they couldn't name a VP who had less foreign policy experience than Agnew. Sarah Palin-level inexperience is pretty much unprecedented in modern times.

its okay, McCain predates modern times anyway

may actually have had meetings with some fairly high-level people from foreign governments.

probably applies to Palin wrt to Canadian pipecock

xp rimshot.wav

if it is Agnew, then the ABC article is incorrect that Palin would be the first in 32 years, as Agnew resigned in '73. If the article is correct, then it would seem to be Rockefeller, who left office precisely 32 years before she would take office, and who certainly had a foreign affairs record, but held positions that would not necessarily have involved meeting with foreign heads of state, as they seem too junior or advisory. this is also what the ABC article implies, by listing the meetings held by every VP subsequent to Rockefeller. if you want, you can read the article to imply that the last was Mondale by finding a distinction between the foreign "leaders" it says he met and foreign "heads of state," but that's reading it within an inch of its life.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/09/12/historical_quote_of_the_day.html

awesome

It's not Rockefeller:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=2393

nice one, gabb

Unless, of course, those Latin American "leaders" that Rockefeller met with were not in fact heads of state.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2545842739_f7f868d8ff.jpg

Latin American "leaders"

http://www.unafuente.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/pablo-escobar.jpg

everyone knows those "handmade" signs are campaign generated, right?

(it's most certainly true of O as well)

googling indicates he met with at least one head of state. so the ABC article is wrong, unless Mondale had not met with a head of state.

I am kinda surprised that Dems haven't hit McCain harder about the flip-flopping thing - on torture, on abortion, on campaign finance reform, on so many issues he's pandered to the right to get this nomination; McCain is by far the more craven power-mad one in this election.

i know it's an outright lie and gotcha is really fun, but not having 1x clue about what the Bush Doctrine is or having any opinion on it is way way way way worse imo.

eyes on the prize guys.

Wednesday, May 14, 1969 New York Gov. Nelson Rockefeller confers with Mexican President Gustavo Diaz Ordaz during his fact-finding tour of Latin America

http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingPage.aspx?type=glp&search=%22nelson%20rockefeller%22%20%22gustavo%20diaz%22%201969&img=\na0016678983243138962_clean.html

OK, I don't know why those links don't work.

not having 1x clue about what the Bush Doctrine is or having any opinion on it is way way way way worse imo.

we can certainly spin this, but i don't think it's clear that this was in fact the case

am kinda surprised that Dems haven't hit McCain harder about the flip-flopping thing

I expect to see more of this as the race enters the home stretch. Supposedly the Axelrod-Plouffe master plan calls for steadily ratcheting up the intensity level of the attacks on McCain into the final weeks.

i think it's completely clear.

besides, the GOP has never waited for clarity and consensus-reality before hitting out on one thing or another -- like establishing the Bush Doctrine, for instance

per the gibson interview, palin sure hates blinking. i think we can use this.

bush himself tried to fudge the totally unprovoked war against iraq as just keeping with the old "imminent threat" rationale, so it's not that weird that palin wouldn't make a distinction.

plus it was biden and clinton who convinced NATO to change the rules of the game insofar as bombing other sovereign nations went. bush obviously went way farther than they went in kosovo, plus bush didn't really have NATO support, but the doctrine of invasion given (x) or (y) "imminent" factors (genocide, wmd, etc) got its first footholds of acceptance under democratic leadership.

I think that what you see emerging as the world has changed is that a Kerry administration would reflect a willingness to use force unilaterally if one of several conditions pertained: One, international conventions were being violated, they affected American interests and the international community would not step up to the ball. Case in point -- took me a while, and I think he would tell you this if you asked him, to convince Clinton to use force in Kosovo.

-- Joe Biden, summer 2004

can't send an e-mail isn't really a kicker is it?

can't do jumping jacks
can't wear a haircut with bangs
can't name more than 11 cable channels

538 has mccain over obama in electoral votes for the first time today

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/12/mccain-gets-grilled-on-the-view/

Two of those aren't really his fault. Not knowing how to send a damn e-mail isn't a physical handicap.

it's just that his keyboard is at eye level

http://www.kenschaefer.com/spyder/pics/StencilUpload/zing.jpg

538 has mccain over obama in electoral votes for the first time today

― akm, Friday, September 12, 2008 1:35 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yesterday

Walters went on to press Palin's reformist credentials, noting McCain has served in Washington for more than two decades and asking repeatedly, "who's she going to reform, you?"

Awesome.

good zing but still feeling :-/ about mccain polling

538 has mccain over obama in electoral votes for the first time today

this shouldn't even be theoretically possible

I mean Jesus Christ

im telling you, i lived in ohio for 4 yrs. those dudes sell confed flags at the state fair as if they were entirely unaware that ohio isnt in the south. some racisty shit goes down there, and palin would have huge appeal

this shouldn't even be theoretically possible

It looks like the site has Colorado red now. Iowa and New Mexico aren't enough to stem the tide.

My 80 yr. old grandma is a Dem election-watcher in rural Ohio and got called a "n****r-lover" by my great-uncle for supporting Obama. Other relatives I have there are some of the only people I know who are truly undecided voters, it's pretty crazy.

The part where Josh Marshall pops up and gives the facts is pretty lame, but I hope the Obama campaign is compiling all of McCain's blatant lies for a hard-hitting "McCain is a liar, just like Bush" ad in October.

Americans racist shockah

i don't think the problem is limited to ohio.

srsly guys elections are like basketball games, when its this close only the last 2 minutes matter

The part where Josh Marshall pops up and gives the facts is pretty lame

You'd rather they hire Crazy Eddie?

this shouldn't even be theoretically possible

but it's theocratically possible, amirite?

obama is better at basketball!

good thinking ev

actually its pretty interesting how the racial dynamic has figured into this election - nobody wants to talk about it, and no one wants to accuse anyone of being racist or even talk about the possibility that maybe people won't vote for Obama because they are racist; racism in America has been shamed into the closet over the lost couple decades, its something next to no one will admit to anymore. So even though it should be abundantly clear that swathes of the country are jittery about Obama almost solely because he's a black man it gets coded into these more subtle variations (a la "Obama has trouble connecting with white lower-income voters" etc.)

srsly guys elections are like basketball games, when its this close only the last 2 minutes matter

― ♠♣♥♦¾ (max), Friday, September 12, 2008 2:16 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is otm

very much so

It's not worth talking about racism at this point if you're working for Obama; you're not going to solve that in 50 days. "God grant me the serenity" etc.

http://obamahotly.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/obama-basketball.jpg

^^clutch!!

yeah I know I'm just remarking on the general trend of the campaign. to be fair, McCain has not engaged in any Willie Horton-style antics (may still happen, who knows) but it seems pretty clear to me that a lot of the electorate's lingering "suspicions" about Obama are thinly veiled "I don't like that uppity negro"-style sentiments. Now, Obama can't rightly characterize any voting bloc as such, and there isn't much he can do beyond be as appealling as possible, I'm just noting it as an interesting dynamic. 30 years ago there would've been a lot more bald-faced racist rhetoric around Obama, this time racism has had to cloak itself in much more genteel terms.

x-post

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/09/12/obamamccain_narrowweb__300x383,0.jpg

http://blog.mlive.com/kzgazette/2008/06/large_obamaMccain.jpg

mccain has absolutely engaged in willie horton antics!

like what?

the sex ed ad for fuxake.

god everybody start writing your local newspapers -- next reporter that uses the terms 'straight talk' or 'maverick' or expresses disbelief that his beloved john mccain is running a lying sleazebag campaign doesn't deserve his job

I think the sex ad is kinda stretching the definition there, blatant misrepresentation though it was. Its appeal wasn't based so much to racism as it was to religious fundies who hate sex ed.

the laughing black man wants to talk to your five year old about sex?

at least willie horton did actually get out of jail and kill someone.

Relax Obama, vent acts have got your back.
http://www.buzzflash.com/store/images/1267_200.jpg

Whoa. The ladies at "The View" were pretty tough on McCain.

This shit has got to be coming to a head. Even considering the pedestrian ridiculousness of a presidential campaign, it seems inconceivable that the GOP ticket can just completely make up stuff day after day after day with impunity.

posted upthread Alfred

well the press is getting pretty sick of it (Joe Klein of all people is foaming at the mouth about the kindergarten ad, daily calling McCain a liar)

but how that manifests itself in daily coverage -- what it would look like if the press completely turns against McCain and whether it would matter .... I'm not sure

xpost

like, if / when another lipstick on a pig comes along, some "controversy" that McCain and Drudge are pushing hard, will the media be able to get off that crack pipe? doubtful

Meanwhile, searching for a "Drunks for Obama" site/sign, I found this:

O'Reilly has drunk the Obama kool-aid

Posted on Fri Aug 29 2008 17:08:11 GMT-0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) by Joiseydude

Discussing Palin, first thing out of his mouth is that she is under investigation, The next is she has "Scant" experience. He went on to say that Obama convinced him last night that he (Obama) is OK...

I, sadly, admit the media's gonna play a key role here insofar as McCain Palin are basically lying blatantly on a daily basis and that kind of thing can't be countered without their complicity.

(er, terrible sentence structure, I mean it can't be countered without the media's help_

on the other hand McCain used to get his message in the lede of a story and only get called out in some 10th graf he said-she said

now a lot of coverage is starting to look like this:

By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer
52 minutes ago
NEW YORK - Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Friday defended two debunked television ads attacking Democrat Barack Obama and claimed erroneously that running mate Sarah Palin never sought money for lawmakers' pet projects as Alaska governor.

so maybe the lying liars frame will get some traction, who knows

xpost but same thing Shakey's talking about

headline of that story is "McCain fumbles Palin's record on earmark requests "

God, McCain is going to be such an awful President

that's the spirit!

i think palin will be a worse president when mccain dies

more Independents like this plz

well, with fewer "sugar tits" refs if you don't mind

yeah he goes a little overboard there

more independents who editorials read like left-leaning Dennis Miller routines?

yeah, classism like that is a real winner

upping the poltical discourse with the words Fucking Moron in the headline. nice.

what the hell, though, intelligent adult discourse doesn't seem to be working, might as well do what we do every four years and throw everything at the wall to see if any of it sticks

SARAH PALIN FUCKS PENGUINS

perhaps I should clarify that what I meant was "more independents who are not into Palin" and not necessarily "more independents who rant, sometimes using inappropriate rhetoric"

i have never heard of this brilliant website before.

the AP's apparent flip is some serious stuff, considering where they've been and who runs shit over there.

also come on lolz @ VAN PALIN! I had not heard that before.

Love this, the latest from the Obama camp:

"Today on "The View," John McCain defended his campaign's latest ad campaign, which has been debunked repeatedly as both false and sleazy. In running the sleaziest campaign since South Carolina in 2000 and standing by completely debunked lies on national television, it's clear that John McCain would rather lose his integrity than lose an election."

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/obama_campaign_mccain_would_ra.php

In running the sleaziest campaign since South Carolina in 2000

oh snaps

would rather lose his integrity than lose an election

this is also a choice line - expect it will get repeated ad nauseam soon enough

McCain was also pushed on his stance on abortion, saying he thought Roe v. Wade was a bad decision. Saying he'd nominate justices who strictly interpret the constitution, Whoopi asked if that meant she'd be returned to slavery:

i think the main reason im not as worried as i could be is that the narrative that is clearly taking place here is similar to the one that apprehended HRC's campaign - she was "calculating," and more than sexism i think this was the one that did her in, she was a 'below the belt'-kind of politician. basically the same thing we repeat ad nauseum here. and mccain's falling into the same trap ... 'sleazy politics'

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Olbermann_special_comment_Republicans_hijacked_911_0911.html (includes 9/11 picture)

This is the way you pick a fight with McCain. Hammer him on integrity and honor, and wait for him to hit back too hard. He will overreact.

^^^^ so OTM

wait, palin doesn't believe in the separation of church and state?!

mccain's pushing narrative on a basic level, "CHECK OUT THESE NEGATIVE ASSOCIATIONS," while Obama pushes it on a meta level ... its almost civil rights movementesque in its conceptualization - get pummelled on TV by attacks and the narrative builds on its own without you having to do much other than saying you want something different.

btw guys the palin in a bikini with machine gun by the pool pic that originated on ILX was mentioned in USA today the other day

next thing you know, they will be posting Dennis Prager columns

that originated on ILX

What?

just like hen fap

it's doctor casino's friend

's body

That's funny. I mean, that thing is all over the Internet. I think there's even a Snopes page for it.

yeah there's a snopes page for it - had no idea it was ILX-originated! Awesome!

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/palin.asp

hope dr. c doesn't mind me posting this up here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorcasino/208036176/

lose his integrity than lose an election"

sweet. more like this, plz

really that pic was on ilx first??!? hahahaha i've seen that like everywhere, i had no idea

Crutis77 needs to get in on that.

Having done some research, "ILX-originated" is stretching it, kinda. The original photo was taken by ILXor Doctor Casino (of a friend of his), but the Photoshopping was done by the Flickr user "Innocuous Fun" and the Photoshopped photo was posted on Flickr, at which point it took on a life of its own.

Cf: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30056776@N07/2831221125/

Innocuous Finn

anyway back to the topic at hand I cannot believe how many zingers are came out of that View appearance (I don't like Whoopi but damn, nicely done!) May have to actually watch when I get home.

it was posted pretty early on, like, the morning the selection broke, to ILX if i remember right - maybe someone can find the link in the veep thread? seeing as dr. c doesnt know with whom it originated, i wouldnt be surprised if it was an ilxor or lurker who made it, posted to flickr and linked it here

seeing as dr. c doesnt know with whom it originated, i wouldnt be surprised if it was an ilxor or lurker who made it, posted to flickr and linked it here

Have you looked at either of the Flickr links that Cozen and I posted?

jimmy the mod posted it to ilx orig, I think, saying 'this is why I watermark my pics'

am0n was the first person to post it i thot

Gov. Sarah Palin says Sen. Barack Obama just might regret not picking Sen. Hillary Clinton as his vice presidential running mate.
Palin

In an exclusive interview with ABC News' Charlie Gibson, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin says Barack Obama may regret not picking Sen. Hillary Clinton as his vice presidential running mate.

"I think he's regretting not picking her now, I do. What, what determination, and grit, and even grace through some tough shots that were fired her way -- she handled those well," the Alaska governor told Charles Gibson in her third and final exclusive interview with ABC News.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5791068&page=1

Absolutely incredible!

Well done, sir.

Alaska lawmakers vote to subpoena Todd Palin

By GENE JOHNSON – 50 minutes ago

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Alaska lawmakers voted Friday to subpoena the husband of Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice presidential candidate, in a move that transformed a messy state personnel issue into a national campaign controversy.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jOTk11gvqDAgD0cY3i4WjI_2YOxwD935CRTG0

omg u guys this is better than britney spears

What, what determination, and grit, and even grace through some tough shots that were fired her way -- she handled those well,

what, like when you called her a "whiner"?

Have you looked at either of the Flickr links that Cozen and I posted?

― jaymc, Friday, September 12, 2008 4:07 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i looked at dr. c's, i know he got the name of the account that posted it but he doesnt know who that person is in real life. who else would be going through his flickr? I figure ilxors

Sen. Charlie Huggins, a Republican from Palin's hometown of Wasilla, appeared in camouflage pants on a short break from moose hunting to cast his vote. He lamented the political maneuvering that he saw as trying to interfere with the investigation.

"I see all this duck-foot action under the water," Huggins said. "Let's just get the facts on the table.

love this - duck duck moose

the bill

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=99&GAID=3&DocTypeID=SB&LegId=734&SessionID=3&GA=93

shame on you, brad

who else would be going through his flickr? I figure ilxors

I don't know any ILXors named Naomi. My best guess is that Naomi just did a Flickr search for "American flag bikini."

loooooooooool SHAME ON YOU BRAD

brad?

stop being obstructionist jaymc ILX MADE HISTORY

they're ref'ing to that youtube link where Melber hands Brad whatsisname his ass

The "McCain is a scumbag" narrative could do some good work. It's not going to move people who love war and torture and rich people, but this thing is close enough that even nicking a few would be good.

hahaha that bill is awesome

"If you teach a comprehensive sex education class to K - 5, you must teach them about preventing HIV." lololololol

I like that the Republicans apparently don't understand what "age-appropriate" means wrt this thing

they understand perfectly

I mean, complaining that McCain is a scumbag can work because he's running a campaign on his character, not the issues, as his team has proudly put it. Whereas complaining about Little Bush's bullshit in 2004 didn't go far because Little Bush was running on the war and the view that it was better to stick mid-war with the guy who owned the war, rather than "dangerously" switching to some newcomer.

(xp) well duh, my point being that I like how, in the name of winning an election, the Republicans are trying to convince America that they are idiots

http://i37.tinypic.com/ta1ll2.jpg

luckily he threw out a bunch of lying crazy bullshit in early september and not late october! now the democrats have a solid two months to call him a desperate liar and his running mate a thin-skinned incompetent with a bunch of mccain-supplied tape as proof.

xp dan yeah i know im just pissed

never get tired of that Jay-Z clip

i vote that that gif makes an appearance on this thread every 50 posts

I just love how the black guy in the crowd goes nuts at it.

A letter on Sully's blog:

The liberal bloggers have become McCain central. They make people click on his ads, make the world spin around him instead of focusing on our candidate and what he is trying to do. There is ZERO coverage of what Obama is actually doing every day talking tough on the issues. There is ZERO coverage of Biden (who is on the trail but the blogs don't seem to care or cover him unless he is doing what they think he should be doing. Sadly AFP did cover him this week and people seemed to be too busy saying he was not doing anything to include the link with his forceful comments against McCain. The one time the blogs linked to Biden---when the MSM tried to make a big deal out his answer to a question that made Hillary look bad and he defended her. That was it).

McCain and crew realized early this cycle that they did not have a visible internet presence. So what did they do? They took over the liberal presence, they are manipulating the leading liberal blogs , just as they manipulate the MSM. All to their own advantage. And the blogs have all fallen for this hook, line and sinker. Does no one realize this?

They are all being played.

And Obama, god bless him, he gets it. As does his team. while everyone whines he keeps at it every day with much much class and like a laser focused on the issues. The problem is not Obama, is that no one wants to follow his lead. Instead they are following McCain-Rove and they don't even know it.

I agree with that, although it's good for a few people to be focused on McCain. Lately I've been having to look more intently than I used to, to read about what Obama was doing that day.

re: Palin in bikini - I first saw it when it was posted to the Vice Presidential spec thread by am0n. I figured as you guys did that am0n was an ILXor who knew my flickr for some reason and that it was just one of those quickie photoshop jobs intended for ILX (in the spirit of, you know, Santorum & Entourage)... but now it seems apparent that InnocuousFun created it and posted it to Facebook, from which friends forwarded it to friends to friends, I figure am0n picked it up at that point and it reached this thread...

My main problem at this point has to do with people selling merch based on the image on ebay, cafepress etc. Going to be doing some faxing tomorrow, I tells ya..

I first saw the Palin/bikini-gun pic in last week's (London) Sunday Times!

i though it was real ;_;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/12/sarahpalin.feminism

Barack Obama is scheduled to appear on “Saturday Night Live” tomorrow night, but he may pull out if Hurricane Ike devastates Houston, Texas, "SNL" creator-producer Lorne Michaels told Politico on Friday. “If it’s serious, it will change everything for us,” he said. “The tone of the show will shift, and it would be inappropriate for the senator to do if it looks in any way like it’s going to be a tragedy.”

In addition, plans are in the works for "SNL" veteran Tina Fey to guest star as GOP vice presidential pick Sarah Palin, but a confirmation of Fey’s participation will come Friday night after she figures out if it will interfere with weekend shoots for her own program, “30 Rock.”

oh man i can't wait for obama on SNL (if it happens)

omg this interview is embarrassing

Obama's cancelled his SNL appearance.

So... who pays?

Households making over $250,000 pay - they revert to the tax rate they had before Bush's tax cuts

I love that he says the McCain campaign has the "clout" - a good old Chicago word that Nelson Algren would have been proud to hear him use

Dwelling on the $2.8 million figure felt like misdirection. And increasing taxes on the over-250 set but cutting taxes for every tax bracket below that is at best breaking even, right?

what part of 'my plan is a net tax cut' didn't you understand?

What part of "So... who pays?" is at all answerable?

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/fiscal/

who pays for what?

Do you want us to cut and paste stuff here for you, too, kenan? Sheesh.

Your condescension is noted.

who pays for what?

Health care is my pet issue, as I do not have any, and suddenly I'm finding out how shocking the sticker price on a bottle of pills can be. Obama's plan is hell of expensive -- like, military expensive. I'm thinking he's planning to pay for it with something that a lot of people won't like. I'm wondering what.

How can anyone from any planet be the next president and NOT raise taxes?

I'm thinking he's planning to pay for it with something that a lot of people won't like. I'm wondering what.

he will pay for it several times over by ENDING THE WAR IN IRAQ.

fingers crossed. But that's not going to happen a whole lot faster than drilling in Alaska is going to bring down gasoline prices. Iraq is a money suck, but no Iraq is not a source of new revenue.

That second sentence is a mess. I mean, wars like this don't just BOOM end, and yay we have all this extra money lying around. That's the "offshore drilling will make it all better" argument.

how hard is this to understand - you don't need to increase receipts to pay more for one initiative if you reduce spending on others. FY08 spending on Iraq is nearly $200 billion. Obama's health care plan calls for annual spending of less than half the cost, perhaps as little as 1/3. No, we're not going to pull out of Iraq immediately. But we're not going to universalize health care access immediately either. By the end of the first term, we will both be out of Iraq and have a health care plan.

and iraq is not the only way to pay for health care. Obama will also do so by increasing efficiency in both governmental and private health care administration via government modernization initiatives, and reducing costs through government involvement in the market, promoting competition and reinsuring certain risks.

you could very easily answer these questions on your own, of course.

increasing efficiency in both governmental and private health care administration via government modernization initiatives

Yeah, I've been writing like this a lot lately, too. Polishing the resume.

government modernization initiatives

Computers. Wow.

promoting competition

Yeah, that's the whole McCain health care plan in a nutshell, and it's scary as shit. As if the insurance and pharmaceutical companies won't lock arms, form a proper cartel, and keep prices artificially high if challenged. "Market-based" is a non-starter.

reducing costs through government involvement in the market

This is where my hopes lie. Heavy, heavy regulation. REGULATION. It's not a dirty word. You can't "work with" these markets, they need to have swords dangling over their heads at this point. Hard to work that into a campaign speech, I guess.

maybe you should go do some research about how health care payment works and then do some research about obama's health care plan.

hey, it's September 2008!

FUTURE THREAD: It's September 2008. Explain to me why I should vote for Hillary instead of Giuliani.

haha... yeah, I was young and foolish. Drill baby drill.

maybe you should go do some research about how health care payment works

Explain me what I have failed to address that will answer all my questions about how Obama plans to pay for it.

It's not like I'm not going to vote for the guy, I'm just saying. That Youtube video made my brow furrow, and I don't furrow every day.

So... who pays?

kenan see the last page of this: Obama will let the Bush tax cuts expire, so the Richie Rich's of the world will help pay for the plan.

www.barackobama.com/pdf/Obama08_HealthcareFAQ.pdf

Godammnit, you partisans. Will you stop telling me about Obama's magical taxes on the rich? I've heard of them.

you understand that obama can increase receipts while sustaining tax cuts on 95% of Americans (and increasing tax credits for some) if his economic programs drive the economy up, right?

and again, who pays for what? the plan reduces costs, if not immediately then in the long run - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/us/23health.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=todayspaper&adxnnlx=1216818268-QxfgwABKRY0VCt4Ec7MSPA&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin. to the extent that some costs are not reduced, they are shifted onto the government via the reinsurance program you've ignored. the early spending on the program can be paid for, if not through cost containment, then easily through savings from the drawdown in iraq not to mention the possibility of increase receipts as above.

the reinsurance program, btw, could operate as a path to future implementation of a single-payer (om shanti) program

you understand that obama can increase receipts while sustaining tax cuts on 95% of Americans (and increasing tax credits for some) if his economic programs drive the economy up, right?

So the plan is "if"?

I'm playing devil's advocate, you understand that, right? I'm *for* more taxes, redistribution of wealth, all those thing O'Reilly wanted to nail him on that he can't outright say.

By the way, that's a pretty great interview. Not for any great points made, but just because Obama comes off so controlled in the face of so much ranting. Character, I think.

obviously he is not for 'more taxes' (though he is for more receipts) and is for 'redistribution of wealth' (just like mccain is, tho he wants to redistribute in the other direction).

So the plan is "if"?

we don't live in a command-and-control 5-year-plan state. as i have said several times now, the government will have money to pay for any costs that aren't simply eliminated, no if's about it.

obviously he is not for 'more taxes'

Well, obviously he can't say that. Who was the last person who said that? Mondale?

But whatever, fundamentally, I don't think we really disagree about anything awfully important.

i thought the devil knew how to google stuff.

psh. the devil might. the advocate doesn't.

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/political-pictures-barack-obama-chill-out-got-this.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/2vl3csh.png

lol

Spanish language ad accuses Democrats of sinking the immigration reform bill (it was Republicans) and calls Obama's amendment (a provision indicating that the reform would be reevaluated in five terms) - which actually helped the bill stay alive! - a "poison pill".

Explain me what I have failed to address that will answer all my questions about how Obama plans to pay for it.

seems to me murrcins other than Kenan be paying a shit-ton into various insurance plans on a monthly basis. pretty big pool of cash that.

punditkitchen.com mad correct motherfuckers need to chill

seems like most of the press on Palin is negative this weekend. But I suppose that the cherished middle class swing voter isn't sitting around on a Saturday afternoon reading about politics.

i wonder if it wasn't a mistake for McCain/Palin to attack the media so vehmently.

Can someone please explain why there are people in this country who are undecided about the election? How is that even possible?

Most people don't vote based on issues/policy, but on some more abstract scale of who is more Presidential, or who is more trustworthy, or who will be better for our country in an entirely abstract-not-connected-to-issues way.

and the frustrating thing is that all this negative publicity isn't going to do much to Palin. the people who like her like her for reasons that apparently have nothing to do with honesty, experience, or qualifications. Why would all the news leaking now undermining her change their perception of her?

punditkitchen.com mad correct motherfuckers need to chill

― HOOS clique iphones fool get ya steen on (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:02 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

v much in character

and the frustrating thing is that all this negative publicity isn't going to do much to Palin. the people who like her like her for reasons that apparently have nothing to do with honesty, experience, or qualifications.

Also they're inclined to like her because "she's so anathema to the liberal media establishment, see how they just can't staaaaaaand her, they're just attacking her all day!"

If anything this kind of stuff will endear her more to that base that thinks she's The One and the communist media is irreparably biased against her.

Most people don't vote based on issues/policy, but on some more abstract scale of who is more Presidential, or who is more trustworthy, or who will be better for our country in an entirely abstract-not-connected-to-issues way.

even w/that kind of analysis it seems like Obama should win all 3 of those categories in a cakewalk

In April, 1 in every 10 Americans thought Obama was a Muslim.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-04-01-obama-muslim_N.htm

The numbers don't seem to be decreasing.
http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=509

I've been taking a Media + Election course, and what I've learned is that the majority of voters don't vote for the same reasons or in the same ways as college-educated voters. (About 25% of Americans have a college degree of some sort.) And consider that the number of college-educated voters are overrepresented in places like NYC + LA, which can make the reasoning of non-college voters seem very foreign.

THOSE PEOPLE aren't presidential, or trustworthy, or better for our country. I thought everyone knew!

xpost

I assume that the numbers of people who would vote for a Muslim, and the people who believe Obama is a secret Muslim, doesn't have a huge overlap.

Seeing things like that makes me rethink my opposition to a very basic "What Does Each Candidate Stand For" multiple choice test required for voting.

37% of those who think he's Muslim intend to vote him

xp

See, now /that/ blows my mind.

lol so apparently Palin never actually visited iraq and hadnt crossed the kuwait border

when she was visiting alaska troops

you mean commanding the alaskan troops

bravely making executive decisions about the alaskan troops in iraq

i heard she personally beheaded sadaam

yeah i heard she chopped his dick off and made jerky out of it

At the Values Voter Summit this weekend, vendors sold an item called “Obama Waffles” featuring a racist cartoon of Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) on the box front — with “popping eyes and big, thick lips” — and another image of him wearing an Arab-like headdress on its top flap. Its creators, Mark Whitlock and Bob DeMoss, said it was meant as “political satire,” and sold the box for $10 from a booth at the Family Research Council event. CNN’s Lou Dobbs stopped by the booth and exclaimed, “My wife will love this!” A photo shows Dobbs with a box of the mix in his hand.

Hey no fair; I'm at my cousin's wedding right now, and the lady an uncle married has on a McCain 2008 sparkly brooch thing. Why can't I wear my Obama pin?!

(ps ON IPHONE beep beep ba beep beep yeah)

I've been taking a Media + Election course, and what I've learned is that the majority of voters don't vote for the same reasons or in the same ways as college-educated voters. (About 25% of Americans have a college degree of some sort.) And consider that the number of college-educated voters are overrepresented in places like NYC + LA, which can make the reasoning of non-college voters seem very foreign.

you had to take a course for that? does it cost money?

oh stop it

Asked if he considered the pictures of Obama on the box to be racial stereotypes, Whitlock said: "We had some people mention that to us, but you think of Newman's Own or Emeril's — there are tons and tons of personality-branded food products on the market. So we've taken that model and, using political satire, have highlighted his policies, his position changes."

Now with more political satire!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/us/politics/14palin.html

Hey this is something. Of course it could end up spun as more evil left-wing media smearing beloved Sarah, but it stays away from the family and might make people a little more uneasy about her. If anyone reads the whole thing.

“You should be ashamed!” Ivy Frye, the assistant, told her. “Stop blogging. Stop blogging right now!”

“YOU ARE SO AWESOME!” Ms. Frye typed in an e-mail message to Ms. Palin in March.

And consider that the number of college-educated voters are overrepresented in places like NYC + LA, which can make the reasoning of non-college voters seem very foreign.

this is really way more about with whom you associate than where you live. e.g. LA county is almost exactly average for college-educated percentage of the population.

palin was never in iraq!!!!

so many lies have come to surface in the past two days, I'm interested to see if mccain polls lower after the weekend, somehow I suspect not. which means half the electorate has become complacent and complicit in this kind of bullshit. which, you know, I suspected and knew, I just hoped for something better.

"I can see Russia from my house!"

Loltinafeygunstance.jpg

Tina Fey as Sarah Palin has just made 20 months of campaign following worth it for me.

spoiler alert

okay omg wow Tina Fey was amazing

http://blip.tv/file/1259746/

tina fey otm

Lipstick. Lipstick. It's lipstick. Lipstick. Okay, there you go.

ilx was sort of on SNL, then, huh

"So please, stop photoshopping my head on sexy bikini pictures!"

it wasn't ilx guys

but i am proud to be your champion

lmaoooooooooo

Not to be overlooked: Amy Poheler's Hillary Clinton is as awesome as ever.

yeah haha she was great. weekend update nice and ballsy. the base just needs to be whipped up again. obama just had a really strong day I think.

fred armisen haha.

plays as obama or mccain in saints row 2 co-op mode

Interviews show that Ms. Palin runs an administration that puts a premium on loyalty and secrecy. The governor and her top officials sometimes use personal e-mail accounts for state business; dozens of e-mail messages obtained by The New York Times show that her staff members studied whether that could allow them to circumvent subpoenas seeking public records.

wtf, not so much at them trying to do this but how completely BUSH LEAGUE they were about it

You mean that game's not FAKE O_O?

it's real; I know o_O

also: the bikini photoshop pic got mentioned on tina fey's SNL skit lololol

lol Saints Row 2

http://americandigest.org/jillgreenbergatlanticcov.jpg

http://americandigest.org/jmccaincntgreenberg.jpghttp://americandigest.org/jillgreenbeerg1.jpg

someone upset about these

http://americandigest.org/jillgreenberg3.jpg

how the photographer really feels abt mccain

"Relax, Ms. Greenberg, and munch your tofu or carpet in complete security."

holy crap

The rest of that American Digest site is just as bonkers, if not more so, than the guy writing about Greenberg.

pretty unprofessional, it seems

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1417423198/bctid1790977147

^that is some fine "political satire"!

I was a bit surprised to see so many young people heckling Lindsay Lohan (yeah I know don't ask) for her political statements on myspace, but I guess it's the whole idea of anyone defending Palin that seems so absurd.

^^ please to quote the choice bits

Lies alone won't do anything to their campaign. Remember, if you're idea of politicians is that that all lie, and some of them have to just to get the job done, then mere lying isn't a problem. I.e. your parents sometimes hurt you b/c they love you, and they're doing it for your own good.

The key is to point out again and again that their bullshit has made us weaker and betrayed all those who put trust in them. George Lakoff mentioned something about this like 3 years ago, that merely pointing out the lies wasn't enough. Come at this from an angle of betrayal, and you might get better results.

there is already plenty of discussion of lindsay lohan's bits on ILX

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_end_is_not_for_a_while.png

oh he does not really

I believe the stickman from xkcd comics posts here, we should ask him

Seriously, you wouldn't believe the grief I get.

I heard Sarah Palin's daughter writes Willow Rosenberg shipper fic though, so tbh I'm leaning Republican in this election.

1) never trust a photographer

2) lol

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/14/campaign.wrap/index.html

ok lol

100% truth test

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00583/SNF15SPDCN-682_583238a.jpg

I has a moose

RIP moose barbara walters u next

alan colmes has distinctly moose-like features

just sayin

how hard is this to understand - you don't need to increase receipts to pay more for one initiative if you reduce spending on others. FY08 spending on Iraq is nearly $200 billion. Obama's health care plan calls for annual spending of less than half the cost, perhaps as little as 1/3. No, we're not going to pull out of Iraq immediately. But we're not going to universalize health care access immediately either. By the end of the first term, we will both be out of Iraq and have a health care plan.

and iraq is not the only way to pay for health care. Obama will also do so by increasing efficiency in both governmental and private health care administration via government modernization initiatives, and reducing costs through government involvement in the market, promoting competition and reinsuring certain risks.

you could very easily answer these questions on your own, of course.

How are the faeries and elves and candy cane trees up on the UES, neb?

The war was paid for by the chinese and your grand children are still going to be paying them back.

Obama, when he gets in, is going to be facing a collapsing economy, shrinking tax base and, concievably, shrinking options in the international debt markets. To say, hey presto no more war, free drugs for all is the sort of answer that, if obama was pushing that line, would mean that you wouldn't want him with in 100 miles of Washington DC.

Obama might get lucky, there might be so much chaos and turmoil come January 20th that he can pull some real FDR style stuff if he has the balls to do it. Failing that he will have to work out who he is going to tax and how to create a healthcare system that is financially sustainable and has broad based support so that it is permanent in the face of attempt to undermine or dismantle it.

Ed, kenan was asking a mechanical question. he sad he cared about health care, not the deficit. or were you saying you know more about us health care administration than he does?

I'm saying that saying ending the war in iraq and efficiency savings aren't going to pay for anything in a contracting economy. The latter especially is a typical right wing way of saying how things should be paid for. If you are going to lay the smack down on people then you need to come up with better answers than 'down the back of the sofa'.

and i'm saying what does 'pay for' mean? our govt has effectively planned over the next several years for spending on iraq and reduced tax receipts via tax cuts that both are greater than the costs of obama's health care plan. against that baseline, obama would reduce future spending on iraq and eliminate some of the tax cuts, both producing more money to pay for his plan in the near term. the policy assumes that the efficiency savings in our health care market - in which 1/3 of costs are administrative - will pay for the plan in the long run. what, precisely, is 'right-wing' about this? in an american, non-'socialized medicine' context?

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/07/why_obama_offers_a_net_tax_cut.html

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/05/news/economy/mccain_claim_spending/index.htm

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=411749

Whenever any party of the right suggests some kind of spending boondoggle or tax cuts, they always say 'efficiency savings' as a magic mantra that explains where the money comes from. Unfortunately the efficiency saving very rarely materialise to the extent that is required. In the specific case of health care you could possibly say that the administrative costs are the costs of having a non-nationalised, non-socialised system.

As for this fiscal planning, the current US government has, more less, spent with little regard to how much money they actually have and has left a massive fiscal time bomb for whoever is the next president. You can hardly campaign on the Bush government being poor economic stewards and then turn round and say, but Oh their numbers look OK enough for us to rely upon them for the biggest change in non-discretionary spending for many generations.

Do you read these links before you post them? The time one especially does a lot to support my arguments.

which arguments? you're misunderstanding or not addressing my point, which is that, while acknowledging that obama may well increase the deficit and that the US faces longer-term economic problems, there is more than enough money to pay for his health care plan against current baselines/within the existing budgetary framework.

an example of cost-reduction measures by an economist now advising obama. but if you want to judge this stuff on the level of european political rhetoric, then there's no point arguing.

That looks more like a caribou than a moose.

even if you are a Concord Coalition-style lifelong deficit obsessive - not that there's anything wrong with that - you still must acknowledge that the problem is a) long-term, and b) much larger than the specifics of obama's health-care plan

and while budget hawkery is not necessarily a partisan approach, in our political framework, you in fact could be accused of making the right-wing argument here

the next step would be to talk about how we can't really live with social security and medicaid any more

So your answer to this is 'the Chinese will finance the American healthcare system, next year and forever', right?

no, i'm saying that that obama's healthcare plan is merely a fraction of american spending financed by the Chinese. but it's also worth pointing out that a specific goal of his plan is to reduce the enormous amount of healthcare spending by both government and the private sector and that he regards this result as an important deficit-reduction stepping stone.

gabbneb I hear u are rich do u think u could pay for obamas plan?

Ed, have you looked at Galbraith's recent book, The Predator State? He doesn't seem to think that the huge deficit in itself is too much of a problem for the US by virtue of its unique position in the world economy, and as long as that holds, America has quite a bit of breathing room...

max i'm just workin hard tryna keep my game right

that commercial's several weeks/months old, xp

I have read around it and there is a growing consensus that the US's 'unique position' is at best faltering. Nonetheless, whether you subscribe to that theory or not relying on the rest of the world to pay for your overpriced healthcare does not seem the best way to provide financial or physical security.

xposts

ed, are you for obama's health care plan, costs aside?

or is it too 'overpriced'?

I think this ad is pretty solid

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/obama_campaign_launches_ad_hit.php

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/obama_campaign_launches_ad_hit.php

Idealistic me, says that you should nationalise your healthcare system if you want to eliminate costs. Relaistic me says there should be a federal insurance scheme open to any and all who wish to join, that employer contributions should be mandated, the poorest segment of society should be paid for, individual contributions should to the federal system should be incentivised and having some kind of health cover should be compulsory.

Obmam's plan is a bit short on compulsion and a lot short on incentives to make the federal system the biggest (and therefore most efficient) healthcare system going. It lacks a degree of vision.

uh, xp

you don't even look before you post, do you

obama's plan recognizes that full federalization is more politically difficult and possibly prohibitive and that it's better to do something. it also sets up a system that could lay the groundwork for later federalization.

Mr. Que and Mr. Queue

i just didn't get a lotta sleep

I understand that but there is nothing to stop the Federal system from being the most attractive deal in town through tax credits, for example.

right, and Obama's approach allows for the possibility of a gradual, market-based 'federalization' of health care through the creation of a national health care program targeted at the uninsured but with universal accessibility and subsidized enrollment

too gradualist, he has to get enough people invested in the success of the system so that dismantling it becomes untenable to whoever follows him in power.

we're not really a dismantling kind of culture, you know? no one is going to win against "they're going to take your health care away"

Thought of the Day
09.15.08 -- 10:21AM By Josh Marshall
The man most responsible for the financial services and banking deregulation that made today possible, fmr. Sen. Phil Gramm, is the man John McCain wants to put in charge of the whole economy.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/216912.php

http://www.youtube.com/v/OviYjJWIYbY

Sorry, maybe this will work:

There we go. The clip is Fox News grilling the McCain campaign for lying.

I think what Ed's getting at is that unless everyone - especially the rich - has access to government health insurance, it runs the risk of being "insurance for poor people" and can then be killed off later, i.e. welfare

I mean, as far as regulations or schemes that protect ordinary people go, America is very much a dismantling culture

STFU PALIN

(yeah I am watching this shit live on sky news at work)

bandwagon-jumping queen bitch

i understand what he and you are getting at, and disagree. i would rather do something that runs the risk of being dismantled than seek something that increases the risk of not doing anything.

afdc did not cover 40 million americans

and afdc recipients had other programs to turn to

What is the point of a universal healthcare system if it only last 4 years?

the biz community now largely favors health care regulation

...

the fear that universal health care might be dismantled is a totally bizarre one

Businesses with large unionised workforces, with longstanding legacy benefits favour minimising their liabilities, I don't think the obama plan does much for them. Small business as seen through the GOP smalltown lens will not want to cough up anything extra. If the benefits are not widely felt then it is an easy easy target for the GOP to hit as a wasteful boondoggle in '10 and '12.

do keep up

Once again, read the article before you post it and please explain how the Obama plan shifts the burden from companies with longs-standing healthcare commitments? Also try and do this without being a supercilious, patronising young fellow.

Tucker Bounds suicide watch

i'm merely pointing out that your suggestion that business would be opposed to a universal plan is not correct

wait, gr8080 is max? wai 2 confuse

federalizing/nationalizing universal health care could just be done like nationlized mortgage backing. We set it up, spin the program off to pay for a war, then buy it back right before it all comes apart at the seams.

I never suggested that business would be opposed (again, read before posting) I am suggesting that the obama plan doesn't necessarily help big business all that much and can be all too easily painted as a un-american, non-free-market drain on all-american small town businesses. Enough people have to benefit from the system to sustain it going forward and to make any proposal to dismantle it politically untenable. The obama plan is not bold enough to achieve these aims.

they aren't, Tracer (i've seen them in the same room)

can be all too easily painted as a un-american, non-free-market drain on all-american small town businesses

and my point, which you keep insisting on missing, is 'by whom'?

can be all too easily painted as a un-american, non-free-market drain on all-american small town businesses

If it's that easy, then I wonder why McCain has not focussed much attention on this line of attack in his campaign ads. Where are the Harry and Louise ads of '08?

Where are the Harry and Louise ads of '08?

http://isbarackobamamuslin.com/

have we figured out which side harry and louise are on this time?

btw, if not rope-a-dope, what do we call lipstick-on-a-pig and this:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Obama_If_you_believe_that_Ive_got_a_bridge_in_Alaska_to_sell_you.html?showall

whatever you want to think the pig line meant, she can't use the lipstick line anymore. we'll see if this does the trick as well.

have we figured out which side harry and louise are on this time?

I can't get to that YouTube link, but the only Harry & Louise ads I've seen this campaign cycle have been a decidedly ambiguous plea for health care reform.

Whenever any party of the right suggests some kind of spending boondoggle or tax cuts, they always say 'efficiency savings' as a magic mantra that explains where the money comes from. Unfortunately the efficiency saving very rarely materialise to the extent that is required.

This is a good point, and McCain is once again following this strategy to a tee. This document does a good job of trying to summarize and put a price tag on all of the promises made by each candidate as well as all their proposed cuts and savings:

http://www.usbudgetwatch.org/files/crfb/usbw0915promises.pdf

Notice that McCain's plan includes $159 billion of "unspecified cuts", vs. $50 billion for Obama's plan. And even with that very generous assumption, McCain's plan would still increase the deficit more than Obama's.

i like this headline:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/john-farrell/2008/9/15/john-mccains-journey-from-maverick-to-liar.html

i don't see the right ever using 'efficiency savings' as a magic mantra to explain where money comes from - the right doesn't generally talk about all the money it plans to spend. what the right's mantra is, at least over here, is cutting 'wasteful government spending,' which is usually vague but basically means health care and other social services.

http://www.slate.com/id/2199923/

i don't think it's a problem that obama isn't lying, though it might be a problem that he's stretching the truth too infrequently - the reason even karl rove is calling out mccain is because mccainco's gone beyond his patented say-something-that-is-literally-true-but-wildly-misleading and started just straight-up lying, with the result that the media is starting to call him on it, allowing an unreliability meme to take shape.

Well, that's true, they may not use the term "efficiency savings", which is a bit wonky. But basically the idea is the same, that there's a lot of wasted money in the budget, and if we did things smarter, we could do more with less. And though they never specify where exactly they're going to find this money that no one else has been able to find, they want us to trust that they will find it. Only the more die-hard conservatives will come out and say that they'd like to cut social spending (e.g., axe the Dept. of Ed.)

xp

right, but they don't tell us they're going to come up with this stuff to pay for new programs, they tell us they're going to come up with this stuff to avoid further increasing the deficit with their tax cuts

conservatives love to hold the public sector to these glass-like levels of platonic effiency perfection that no private sector outfit ever ever reaches. gee i wonder why.

omg i saw someone at the dmv playing solitaire STRANGLE THE LEVIATHAN NOWWWW!!@#!@#

When Jon Stewart asked McCain last year, "Are you going into crazy base world?" the celebrated maverick acknowledged, "I'm afraid so."

I mean I don't doubt that the government could do lots of things more efficiently, but I generally think we should wait until we've actually made the improvements before we start cutting the taxes. Or as Alan Greenspan said last week, "I'm not in favor of financing tax cuts with borrowed money."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=a.BrvyBtV8CM&refer=home

xp

McCain still dumb

what is a good conservative website thats like the equivalent of dailykos? Reading conservative blogs and crap really entertains me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/12/AR2008091202594.html

McCain even seems to have forgotten what saved his greatest legislative achievement, which is campaign finance reform. When he was asked during the Saddleback Church debate which Supreme Court justices he would not have nominated, he named Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens. It happens that those are four of the five justices who voted in 2003 to uphold the McCain-Feingold law.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allison-kilkenny/john-mccain-is-a-big-fcki_b_94952.html

a little heavy on the whore-talk there

(I mean not that I disagree but that isn't the kind of rhetoric that sways undecideds)

aren't you the one that wants independents to be more like that stupid article you linked to the other day that called Sarah Palin sugartits??

if you had actually read what I said you might have noted that what I wanted was for more independents who didn't like/didn't trust/wouldn't vote for her, not necessarily more independents with shittily written blog posts.

for

lord knows weve got plenty of independents with shittily written blog posts

all you wrote was "More independents like this please" and then linked to the Sugartits, Inc. document

i'm not sure what you want, Shakey Mo

perhaps I should clarify that what I meant was "more independents who are not into Palin" and not necessarily "more independents who rant, sometimes using inappropriate rhetoric"

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, September 12, 2008 8:23 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol

MOAR TITS de SUCRE

(I mean not that I disagree but that isn't the kind of rhetoric that sways undecideds)

i didn't know they liked to read huffpo in their spare time. i was merely pointing out some fine objective analysis.

I wonder how many Tina Fey fans are now tempted to switch their votes to McCain-Palin, in the hopes that a McCain-Palin administration would lead to regular SNL appearances by Fey.

oh come on

sry i don't often post to rolling us pantomime but palin's speech today about how OMG THIS TOWN HAS SOME HOCKEY PLAYERS oh and btw the next president john mccain will support america's heroic businessmen through these troubled times was quite simply the most objectionable piece of public speaking by a potential head of state i've seen in yonks, and this includes Mugabe's address at the power-sharing announcement today

This is why democracy is worth fighting for.

xp

McCain convention bounce gone

sry i don't often post to rolling us

speak for yourself

...he is?

is this thing going to be so close as to be unbearable or is it still too early to tell?

Liberal PAC affiliated with Howard Dean's brother running anti-McCain ad that goes directly after his POW experience, featuring a fellow former POW:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/09/independent_gro.html

that's some sleaze i can get behind

why can't it be november already, all this campaigning is making me ill.

its weird/funny how whatever McCain's campaign says about Obama seems to really be about McCain

No one can match an American worker. Our workers sell more goods to more markets than any other on earth. Our workers have always been the strength of our economy, and they remain the strength of our economy today.

While I can hardly argue with the last bit can anyone explain the second line or is it just election piffle?

I'd say its probably an outright lie.

It is, Germany exports more than the USA does.

Krugman nailed this one earlier:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/15/were-number-what/

Our workers have always been the strength of our economy, and they remain the strength of our economy today.

Our workers who can't pick lettuce for $50 an hour. They just can't.

to busy picking arugula

TOO

its weird/funny how whatever McCain's campaign says about Obama seems to really be about McCain

Not so weird when you factor in that Obama is rubber and McCain is glue.

lol at Fox News giving McCain spokesman a kicking for the recent McCain campaign dishonesty

and this is probably the most effective Obama ad I've seen:

(both from http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2008/09/fox_news_in_revolt.cfm)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/science/16science.html

oh you guys. Obama's space answer is pretty empty, but McCain's...

"Ensure U.S. leadership in space by promoting an exploration agenda that will combine the discoveries of our unmanned probes with new technologies to take Americans to the Moon, Mars, and beyond"

No no no no. At least he admits it's dumb:

"Although the general view in the research community is that human exploration is not an efficient way to increase scientific discoveries given the expense and logistical limitations, the role of manned space flight goes well beyond the issue of scientific discovery and is reflection of national power and pride."

taking people to the moon! can't be done!

"the role of manned space flight goes well beyond the issue of scientific discovery and is reflection of national power and pride"

You know what else would reflect national power and pride? A massive freaking tide farm lighting up the BoWa grid. Just sayin'...

did Obama really claim that he will cure the sick? i mean it's one thing to mock grandiosity in speeches but for the official campaign spokesman to say that w/o smiling is just hilariously absurd

He promised quality affordable healthcare for all Americans, that should cure at least some of them.

i should clarify - it's one thing for McCain/Palin to mock O's alleged grandiosity in their speeches, but for their official campaign spokesman - Bounds - to say that Obama wants to cure everyone in that Fox video up above without smiling is hilariously absurd :)

[quote]can be all too easily painted as a un-american, non-free-market drain on all-american small town businesses[/quote]

[quote]and my point, which you keep insisting on missing, is 'by whom'?[/quote]

The core of the palin narrative is down-home small town, small business, (whilst, perversely also being 'sam'z club'). It's is, and has been, a profitable myth for the GOP to exploit. What you don't seem to get is my point that unless you get a body of people (swing voters) invested in the success it is an easy target for such attacks, and many others. Unless universal healthcare has gone far enough to touch and benefit these people's lives then you have a system that will only last 4 years.

Changing the 'quote' code and hiding the formatting help at the same time: classic

The core of the palin narrative

Does anyone else get the feeling that Pundits/Political commentators are the astrologists of our century? They watch Jupiter move and then they make up a hundred reasons/narratives for why it moved. But they really have no relationship to reality. Except that pundits are even worse than astrologers because they don't definitively know that Jupiter moved. All they have are a dozen contradictory polls that change day to day. I'm sure this isn't an original point but sometimes it's incredibly frustrating to read op-ed after op-ed explaining strategy and trends and narratives that really have absolutely no firm connection to any reality whatsoever.

haha. it's astrologers, sir, and we have fixed and unalterable significations for Jupiterian transits that are cross-cultural, thanx

but anyway...i think the conservative pundits/bloggers are not that different from liberal ones in that the latch onto "polling data" that supports their current campaign narratives or spin constructs, and ignore ones that don't. for example at NRO's Corner there were oh...like 2 ? blog posts about the Wall Street meltdown yesterday. and all the rest were still about Gibson's cruel behavior of Palin, or Obama committing treason in Iraq.

it's like if they whistle loud enough, we won't hear the helicopter overhead

Yeah, astrologers. It's very late here and the Eagles lost to the Cowboys. I'm not totally in my right mind.

What really drives me nuts is that the few statistics we have (like those that show that a VP candidate have barely any affect upon an election) get thrown out every four years because THIS YEAR IT'S DIFFERENT.

It is more significant than in most elections as many people think there's a good chance McCain won't last a full term.

Maybe it's more significant. How the hell would you prove it though?

did Obama really claim that he will cure the sick?

i think he claimed he would increase research funding enormously, much of it specifically targeted towards cures for the leading diseases - something many docs think might be possible and many pols have been talking about for years. remember LIeberman's "American Center for Cures"? perhpas the surrogate went overboard, but i'd give people a lot of leeway to counter bullshit on Fox.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/09/15/palin_had_tanning_bed_installed.html

The core of the palin narrative is down-home small town, small business, (whilst, perversely also being 'sam'z club'). It's is, and has been, a profitable myth for the GOP to exploit. What you don't seem to get is my point that unless you get a body of people (swing voters) invested in the success it is an easy target for such attacks, and many others.

i thought business was the community we had to win over. now it's swing voters? the reason i'm seeming tetchy here is because you seem to be applying an abstract notion of how things work and not confronting our realities. i think you're simply wrong that swing voters need to invested in the success of a health care program for it to work. swing voters are typically busy people who only pay attention to their needs. some of them need and will get health care and will support its creation and oppose its dismantling. some of them will ignore the issue coming or going but aren't going to be driven to vote against it.

The core of the palin narrative is down-home small town, small business, (whilst, perversely also being 'sam'z club').

this is a non-sequitur - most swing voters are not small-towners, and it's palin's personality and gender that have appealed to people (most of them unhappy Republicans, rather than swing voters, who still haven't made up their minds), not her narrative, which doesn't have much to do with small business (who, btw, obama exempts from employer contribution to the new plan and gives a tax credit).

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS201335+09-Apr-2008+BW20080409

you seem to be applying an abstract notion of how things work and not confronting our realities

or perhaps it's that you've taken to heart perennial republican lines of attack - it's gonna hurt small business, pleads mike huckabee, e.g. - without recognizing that they don't really hunt anymore

wow

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/15/AR2008091502406.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Suburban swing voter women would like to know whether they're going to be sodomized by Capital Gains Tax for selling off their business premises on retirement. If Obama can reassure my mom on that level, she won't care about his experience or where he goes to church in Chicago when she goes to vote for him. I hope continued exposure to Palin lies and Blizzard County conniving has dampened her enthusiasm for the Palin pick (I had to sit through boring uterocentric argument she'd have laughed off if deployed on behallf of HRC).

i thought business was the community we had to win over. now it's swing voters? the reason i'm seeming tetchy here is because you seem to be applying an abstract notion of how things work and not confronting our realities. i think you're simply wrong that swing voters need to invested in the success of a health care program for it to work. swing voters are typically busy people who only pay attention to their needs. some of them need and will get health care and will support its creation and oppose its dismantling. some of them will ignore the issue coming or going but aren't going to be driven to vote against it.

except in the case that someone comes along and offers them a tax cut for obliterating boondoggle that is worthless to them.

The only reason that we still have a national healthcare system in the UK is that dismantling it is politically untenable. Unless Obama does something to make this the case then he may as well not even start setting one up.

I don't see how the small town narrative is a non-sequitur. Timne and time again the GOP have managed, through abstract ideas, to get people to vote against their socio-economic self interest and will continue to do so. I'll say it again Obama has to make universal healthcare so ingrained in the system within 4 years that no serious republican can stand on a platform of dismantling it.

The only reason that we still have a national healthcare system in the UK is that dismantling it is politically untenable

perhaps that would have some relevance to the US if we had a 60-year-old national health care system (or a country the size of Oregon, or a more liberal polity with some sense of solidarity). obama is not setting up a national healthcare system and most of the swing voters and other voters you're worried about would never support one on the front end, let alone the back.

I'm pretty sure that if Team O conducted a root and branch cost study they'd be appalled by the amount of $20 tampons charged to hospital bills (up from $10 in 1984, when my mom discovered one such item on her bill) which are then blithely paid by insurers. It's not just the pharmaceutical industry that benefits from our collective distance from any tally-up of hospital bills, there are all kinds of sneaky little inflations that happen as a matter of course and only a handful of people try to police this when looking after patients, or indeed while they've been one.

In a climate where there may be need for increased regulation of financial services, might there also be the same need in healthcare, and would it be urgent enough that people who don't like 'big government' (unless it's big to fite terrism) would accept or encourage the move?

wow

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/15/AR2008091502406.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

― gabbneb, Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:55 AM (2 hours ago)

yeah that column is crazy

can't stand Cohen but I'd say the press is officialy off McCain's jock, en masse

valiant effort by Drudge here, lol

OBAMA BOOM ECONOMY: RECORD BANK IN BEV HILLS, $28,500 A PLATE!
Tue Sep 16 2008 06:25:55 ET

The nation's financials may be in a spiral, but cash is flowing into the Obama campaign faster than Marvin Hamlisch can play "Niagara"!

Yesterday, Obama declared how we are in "the most serious financial crisis since the Great Depression."

Today he will host a dinner in Beverly Hills --- costing attendees $28,500 dollars each!

Hundreds of high rollers, including some of the biggest executives in film, television and music, will munch gourmet chow and hang out with the candidate.

Streisand will then sing at the five-star Beverly Wilshire, no doubt reviving the Depression-era standard "Happy Days Are Here Again" with new urgency.

Obama is set to break a single-day fundraising record of $9 million.

Tuesday's events in Tinseltown come after Obama racked up a record-breaking $66 million dollars in fundraising last month, beating his previous high mark of $55 million last winter.

"The fundamentals of our economy are strong, but these are still very, very difficult times," rival McCain said, sunny-side up.

"Sen. McCain, what economy are you talking about?" smiled Obama.

Developing...

sunny side up??