ADD vs ASDs and the future of the species

I've been thinking about this recently, especially after reading some science magazine article in which autism is hypothesized as the result of an over-sensitive mind, not a crippled one, which is much in line with fairly recent conclusions regarding ADD, e.g. it's not an attention deficit, it's an attention surplus, which when left unused winds up as a sort of doubling down on the idle hands -> devil aphorism. It takes one to know one and I am.

We've been developing literacy for in between two to five thousand years, to the point where we now expect every adult (or child over seven/eight years of age, frankly) to be able to read. Being able to read exposes a person to literally (ha ha!) billions of pieces of encoded information, where before the same size brain was simply required to look and see and maybe (once in a while) count. That's a big difference; even if we discount the volume of information presented, assuming, for instance, that the OG Wa-Tho-Huk was acutely sensitive to the angle on a hair or leaf or the timbre of the wind and could recognize a significant meaning in each of these things, that information is discrete, specific to the time it is processed; language, and specifically the written flavor (or the read flavor, actually) requires not only significant processing but storage and ready referral far beyond eidetic replay.

Oof.

I'm rambling and I'll get back to all that later. What I'm really asking: Are attention "deficit" disorder and autistic spectrum disorders a response to overwhelming volumes of discrete symbolic information, and therefore a clearly identifiable evolutionary step? Are they at least symptomatic of such a change? And are they 1. mutually exclusive and/or 2. associated with genotype success? Recent "epidemics" of both conditions seem to argue yes to 1 and 2.

I'm leaving out for now the tinfoil wives' tale of american shrinks being glorified drug dealers, and I'd appreciate responders to do as well.

basically folks we have only recently entered the age where lots of bookworms be makin mad money and fuckin' together and I am interested in what this means for Shinzō Ningen

ADD, e.g. it's not an attention deficit, it's an attention surplus

i've thought this for a while. for me, ADD means having to pay much greater attention to things other non-afflicted people take for granted. there was a girl in my grad program who would always chat on AIM during classes, and she managed to be a good student. i really envied her, because i was hanging on every word. the slightest outside stimulus can throw me off.

btw my bro is autistic so there may be some genetic connection

to some degree I think this may be also one of those things where a Baldwin effect creates a side effect that is negative:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_effect

sickle cell is the best example I know of - I might call it "over-engineering," and it's all mendelian and perfect, one gives you improved resistance to malaria, two gives you fucked up hemo and you die young.

Some have looked at male homosexuality and found that the female members of gay men's families tend to be superfecund, you know, makin mad healthy babies all day and whatnot, which sounds a lot like a sickle cell advantage to me. So in the modern world, does my parents' & grandparents' affinity for learning quick and reading lots improve their genetic viability enough to offset the fact that I would rather spend the prime of my life collecting records and staring at computers than forcing a succession of unhappy women to pump out one baby after another like some of my contemporaries? Success strategies are as incomprehensible as they are varied, I guess.

what it means for the future of the species? if subsequent generations have more ADD/ASD children, people may grow increasingly isolated from one another, spending more time in their own heads and less time interacting with peers and being fully "present" in certain situations.

Your college experience could be down to different learning styles though.

I get almost nothing out of most presentations and find lectures ludicrously inefficient as a way of transmitting information. Just give it to me in bulletpoints on two sides of A4, with supporting information in annexes as necessary.

Back to the Baldwin thing, there's piece in New Scientist from a little bit back about how insulating a species from strict pressures allows for loony-tunes fruity-tooty exceptionalism to develop (birdsongs as an example) so it's likely that effect could be happening as well.

ok those two xposts in context all about making the point for me word

people may grow increasingly isolated from one another, spending more time in their own heads and less time interacting with peers and being fully "present" in certain situations.

I get almost nothing out of most presentations and find lectures ludicrously inefficient as a way of transmitting information. Just give it to me in bulletpoints on two sides of A4, with supporting information in annexes as necessary.

On the Baldwin effect, if selected offspring manage to be able to process a lot more symbolic information efficiently, will we'll see the evolution of some PKD style 'pre-cogs'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_type

holistic detectives, every one

if you were really crazy like me, you could even argue that greenspan's inability to affect the bubbles he fucked up was a product not so much of his nurture but his nature, he simply was never built to SEE like WE CAN SEE

(btw I am drinking and listening to music that hongro would despise right now)

% of people on ILX w/ ADD = ??

autism is hypothesized as the result of an over-sensitive mind, not a crippled one

Those aren't mutually exclusive, too much attention can be crippling. Which is exactly the point with ADD for some people. I don't see autism as a result of generally increased mental sensitivity, though, more as a matter of different mental focus in a qualitative sense, which comes with a lack of some capacities as well as (sometimes) addition to others.

They could still be genetic developments related to skills in symbolic processing, but it seems more likely to me they'd be unexpected side effects rather than direct and identifiable progressions. Also, volume of symbolic information around shouldn't be that much of a determinant of success, given that most people ignore almost all of it most of the time.

xpost (i have no add or autism, but i have one sibling with each!)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/OL-SixthFinger15.jpghttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/OL-SixthFinger19.jpghttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/OL-SixthFinger1.jpg

tom i will ask for a grant to look into this, k?

Those aren't mutually exclusive, too much attention can be crippling.

Exactly. I was about to mention this. If you can't "shut off" (or focus on one thing for a longer time), then you have a problem. That said, I have been thinking about this a lot. (In regard to my own "panic attacks" and also my own, and friends', kids.) How much does a label affect your viewpoint of the labeled person. I have a friend who's convinced her kiddo has ADD. I stressed that 1 the kid's still a baby so it's too hard to diagnose ADD at this stage and 2 how much will the label affect her attitude towards her child. Sometimes it's better not to label.

We've been developing literacy for in between two to five thousand years, to the point where we now expect every adult (or child over seven/eight years of age, frankly) to be able to read.

We don't expect it. But we do want our kids to function in this society so you kinda need literacy if you want to tag along. (I know that's not what you wanted to address...)

Aren't people with autism overly sensitive to sound, sight and whatnot? I seem to remember this is the case. This is one of the things that parents notice at first.

I'm leaving out for now the tinfoil wives' tale of american shrinks being glorified drug dealer

There was some lame special on telly the other day. They sent a bloke with a HIDDEN CAMERA (oh NOES! a HIDDEN CAMERA! the recorded film MUST be the god's honest TRUTH!) to a few docs. Started saying he was depressed, divorced, wanted to commit suicide, BLABLABLA. All docs prescribed him drugs. OH NOES! The man has suicide tendencies and they prescribe him DRUGS! Those EVIL EVIL men. WTF. What should they have done (short term wise)? Slap him on the back and say: "Things can only get better mate, go grab a pint."

that's the kind of thing that shows absolutely nothing in itself, what's really important is your own preconceived ideas!

Are ADD and ASD both more prevelent in males than females?

Uniintelligent houseflies are better adapted than intelligent houseflies.

NB: humans ain't at all houseflies.

And re: autism spectrum, Fragile X Syndrome has the coolest name of all of them, and maybe people should read about it?

I'm too manic to even think, ayeayeayeayeayeayeaye.

Are attention "deficit" disorder and autistic spectrum disorders a response to overwhelming volumes of discrete symbolic information, and therefore a clearly identifiable evolutionary step?

I think innate ADD/autism-like brain patterns are more likely to be develop under the sheer immediacy & breadth & compulsiveness of the wikinformation age, but I don't think it's so much of a strain on reproduction that it would cause any significant change in the human gene pool. So not evolutionary in the genetic sense (evolutionary/adaptive culturally certainly).

But of course in Silicon Valley, where there were/are a lot of aspies living and working together in an economically strong community & marrying each other & having aspie kids, that I'd say is some pretty rapid evolutionary adaptation.

i understand ADD is really common among cops

I work Special Ed and ADD as used and diagnosed is a really dubious term imo - you get kids with 'pure' ADD but it is actually comparatively rare, much rarer than for say dyslexia, let alone, like, measles. A lot of the diagnoses we deal with (not all by any means) are basically psychs saying "yes, i agree, this kid often behaves inappropriately in a classroom setting, but i don't know why. Here is the badge, for that."

Are ADD and ASD both more prevelent in males than females?

Both are much more often-diagnosed in males than females. I am fairly confident that asd is also more prevalent in males, ADD I don't know.

i understand ADD is really common among cops

this makes sense - I assume any high-stress occupation is going to have a higher percentage of thrill-seeking ADDers amonst their population.

though there is a chicken or egg component here. people who spend all day going into stressful situations, does an ADD condition cause them to gravitate towards that work or does the occupation start affecting their personality?

i understand ADD is really common among cops

I would imagine a lot of jobs with high stimulation levels and a varied workday would attract ADD candidates?? xp

does an ADD condition cause them to gravitate towards that work

I might argue yes, if only because it's one of the few situations where an ADD adult can really excel beyond their peers. I'm a multitasker par excellence when there's tons of intense shit coming down. On slow quiet days I get nothing done.

Well, someone I know only realized he had ADD in adulthood, which explained FINALLY why his office job was killing him and why he couldn't ever get a handle on it. Eventually he went into something where he visits different sites all day, is outdoors and on the move, and interacting intensely with lots of kid and adults. It's not thrill-seeking at all, but it's high-stimulation and physically active.

I don't think I actually have any real symptoms of ADD tho my brother has many, but I agree on this: boredom is the quickest route to my life completely self-destructing. Once my mind has disengaged, my work ethic, decision-making, everything goes out the window while I search for stimulation.

I would really like a job like that, Laurel! What is the field? (xpost)

I don't want to be any more specific on the innernets, actually, but I'll email you. :)

drug dealer

(not the APA kind)

contract killer would be awesomer

or spider-man.

NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING
NOT THRILL-SEEKING

they all say that.

spiderman doesn't seek thrills, it's just his goddamn spidey sense is always going off

field salespeople = lotsa ADD

i also want that job, Laurel

I might argue yes, if only because it's one of the few situations where an ADD adult can really excel beyond their peers. I'm a multitasker par excellence when there's tons of intense shit coming down. On slow quiet days I get nothing done.

― TOMBOT, Friday, October 24, 2008 12:35 PM (56 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is so fucking true for me. according to those online questionnaires or whatever, i'm NOT ADD, but it sure feels like it sometimes. i either need one very involving task, or some kind of multivariate complex of related tasks to stay focused. tho i guess those are the same thing, really.

i think this is why cooking is one of my favorite things in the world to do.

gbx you have basically already had that job!!

this is so fucking true for me. according to those online questionnaires or whatever, i'm NOT ADD

lol dr google

I have a kid on my bus who is a really nice kid who is always super-active and restless, but the other morning he was almost jumping out of his skin. Even his eyes were jumpy and jerky. He was flicking his hands around a lot. Even hitting himself.

I had a brief talk with him before he got off the bus about his behavior and he said he'd forgot to take his pill that morning. When I asked him if it helped, he said, "a little". I can't see increased ADD as a beneficial development, no matter how multi-taked society becomes.

two points there, 1) there is a spectrum of ADD sufferers, not every one is jumping out of their skin, 2) physical ADD symptoms tend to decline as people age

that's why doctors used to say "ADD goes away as people reach adulthood", but now they differentiate between adult ADD and non-adult ADD.

when I was in college I took the ADD test where you stare at a screen and a box appears intermittently, and if it's in one position you do nothing, and if it's in the other you press a button. The first time I took it I wound up invalidating my own results by over-anticipating the appearance of the box. The second time I took it I scored "hyper-normal" - presumably that is like "superbad?" - and they decided to go with that result. So it was basically "your ADD broke the meter. You're just a regular guy!"

Would you view yourself any different if they had told you you were "ultra-ADD?"

I know, Laurel! Various times, in fact. I miss it :-/

...and the reason I defaulted to online ADD-test is because that's where the learning disabilities website at the university directed me. like, don't bother coming in if you "pass"

Would you view yourself any different if they had told you you were "ultra-ADD?"

it had nothing to do with how I view myself, it had everything to do with getting a scrip for adderall. epic fail on that plan, but thanks to the military I now have an excellent job with an excellent paycheck - if I had tested "positive" I wouldn't be able to say that. Thank you, university of tennessee brain problems clinic.

and as this thread has basically made pretty clear, ADD is totally liveable and even useful in some situations. I was never medicated for it, even though my parents were told I was ADD pretty early in my school career. most of the kids I knew who were on ritalin or whatever seemed like they had a much worse time with things, and it's probably due in no small part to identifying as a person with a "disorder" since young times.

in contrast to tom's story, I wish I had been put on meds when I was a kid. I wouldn't have been thrown out of catholic school, dropped out of college, etc. it wasn't until I got on medication as an adult that I was able to finish college (and being an adult didn't have anything to do with it because I went back to college as an adult before I was on meds and couldn't finish then, either).

it never really affected my work performance, but college was too much of an abstract long-term goal for my ADD mind to handle.

i either need one very involving task, or some kind of multivariate complex of related tasks to stay focused.

this is me in a nutshell. my brain really takes to complex issues where there are a lot of factors/variables. i'm good at things like music and cooking, and the subjects i've been studying these past few years (policy, design, real estate, environmental science) are equally dense & dynamic.

college was too much of an abstract long-term goal for my ADD mind to handle.

I wound up dropping out too, I spent every semester after my first college winter break doing everything I could that didn't earn a credit hour - newspaper cartoonist, wutk program director, perennial SGA joke candidate. It was when I discovered the information overload that is going to school while working full time that I became an A student. Thankfully the degree I fucked up was the one that doesn't matter. I'm sure I would have failed if I'd tried to get my Master's by going full time.

my brain really takes to complex issues where there are a lot of factors/variables

haha yeah I read this as "things where your mind can hop around to a million different points and you're never allowed to only solve one problem at a time"

exactly

totes

whole systems thinking >>>>>>>>>>> the silo approach

the sustainabiliteers say that we need to recognize the interconnectedness of everything if we're going to mitigate climate change and save most of the remaining life forms on earth. ADDs/ASDs (not all of them obv) "can hop around to a million different points" and see patterns and linkages in things that other ppl take for granted.

yeah, see, this is what gets me into trouble, tho. way too easy to wander down garden paths of interconnectedness and away from what I'm supposed to be doing.

this is why i really want to get into like medical ecology and such

some of the ADD cases we're talking about here might be closer to low latent inhibition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_inhibition Basically life as an uberProustian. I'm pretty sure my girlfriend has it, and her ability to remember everything that ever happens and casually learn things (inc. languages) she isn't trying to learn is pretty crazy.

i think i'd only flattering myself to assume i had something like that

and as this thread has basically made pretty clear, ADD is totally liveable and even useful in some situations.

wut

the future belongs to sociopaths

actually i don't believe that i just wanted to make a provocative statement as you can probably tell

the sustainabiliteers say that we need to recognize the interconnectedness of everything if we're going to mitigate climate change and save most of the remaining life forms on earth. ADDs/ASDs (not all of them obv) "can hop around to a million different points" and see patterns and linkages in things that other ppl take for granted.

Dose all high school students with LSD before graduation, level the playing field

I am very tired and haven't the werewithal to digest this impressive thread with the scholarly rigor it deserves, but hopefully I'll have something to add later. I have a severe case of "real" ADD and it certainly does have its desirable attributes beyond the social stigma of distractibility. My biggest problem with it is that it takes me ten times longer to read things b/c of the "drifting off" factor. I've had lifelong envy of my friends who can just cruise through dense prose, when I have the same interests and capacity for understanding, but simply can't get though as much as I would like to. Unfortunately, this is perhaps the primary reason why I've decided against a career in academics.

some of the ADD cases we're talking about here might be closer to low latent inhibition

jason bourne has this, y/n

was diagnosed with 'severe ADD' yesterday after taking a test where i had to click a button every time one of two possible patterns flashed up on a computer screen. pretty sure noone could concentrate on that task for 20 + minutes.

how do you wind up taking a test like that btw?

you get a disease that cant be diagnosed until after surgery so your surgeon send you to a shrink to make sure the pain isnt in your head before slicing you up and then the shrink says 'btw theres a test i want you to take iirc'

oh that sounds like a lot of hassle for getting to play an atari 2600 game tbh.

sure but the drugs are A+

worth noting, ta

I have an appointment in 4 hours to determine whether or not I'm a suitable candidate for some kind of adult ADD treatment. I've been diagnosed with varying degrees of ADD since childhood (along with some fun outlier diagnoses; when I was tested at the age of 5 in 1988, the doctor was convinced I had a severe right hemisphere dysfunction) but haven't been on anything since high school. Even then I took them pretty haphazardly because of the side effects and the huge social stigma- being the weird shy kid was one thing, being the weird kid on the retard pills was something else entirely. Alabama high schools: good times.

Right now I'm making one last-ditch effort to get my life back on track, because my job is fucking killing me.

yeah i was kind of relieved by the diagnosis because my job is killing me too. i got promoted to a role that requires organization of 30+ people and their projects and i keep forgetting simple things like running a meeting in 15 minutes (ie we get meeting pop up reminders 15min beforehand and somehow in that 15 min i forget all about it) or emailing someone etc etc maybe some adderall will help. we'll see.

Reading back on this thread, I feel like there's some overlap w people having ADD tendencies and ILXors in general just being pretty damn smart and therefore getting bored w normal tasks.

sunny, if it makes you feel any better, I was in a meeting last week in which I and several other colleagues (some highly placed) complained about forgetting meetings IN THE TIME BETWEEN THE POP-UP REMINDER AND THE MEETING. I told them my strategy was not to dismiss the pop-up, because it's SO ANNOYING that I can't overlook it.

I also have a folk suspicion that ADD is largely cover for rightfully not coping with boring crap that we're not evolutionarily equipped to deal with. I suspect if you're able to cope with hunter/gatherer tasks (like hunting or gathering) without fidgeting, you're not really "broken."

I think that's an unfair lens -- maybe more sporting to say that our current modern "workforce" expectations require things from nearly 100% of their population that a certain number of normal human beings just aren't equipped to provide. And in the white-collar/semi-professional/wahtever workforce, there's not a lot of room for them, regardless of what other skills their varied thinking brings to the table.

Great article here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304620304575165902933059076.html

Mind Games
--
Attention-Deficit Disorder Isn't Just for Kids. Why Adults Are Now Being Diagnosed, Too.

HEALTH JOURNAL
APRIL 6, 2010
By MELINDA BECK

...Complicating the picture further, ADHD frequently goes hand in hand with depression, anxiety and bipolar disorder, and it can be difficult to untangle which came first. "It's very common for someone to be treated for depression or anxiety for years, and have the therapist not notice the ADHD," says Mary Solanto, director of the AD/HD Center at the Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York City. But adults whose ADHD is left untreated face a high incidence of substance abuse, automobile accidents, difficultly staying employed and maintaining relationships...

ding ding ding ding

...Besides learning such organizing skills, many people with ADHD say the biggest challenge is learning not to let the disorder erode their self-confidence, and not to blame themselves for shortcomings.

"There's a huge incidence of depression with ADHD because you are continually failing in the eyes of others, not reaching your potential. People recognize you are smart, and you can't find your niche," says Rob Cahill, 38, an ADHD sufferer who works in social service agency in New York....

The idea of Neurodiversity never really caught on, on this board, did it?

Not as such.

keep nursing a suspicion I have ADD, if only as an excuse to myself for why I am a lazy and incompetent dropout who slacks at work and then gets anxious over deadlines (or, oh, every sunday night), though it's a bit late for a diagnosis to do any good

case in point: I thought "I totally want to read this because I feel like I have this" but 2.5 paragraphs later I returned to reading the last 2 posts on 600 ilx threads instead

all fairly standard stuff for the internet generation i guess, so ho hum

sorry, this isn't the thread, is it? just where i ended up to put off bedtime, which it has now reached without me doing the work i brought home because i didn't do it in work and i told someone it would be done by tomorrow. because it could've been done by tomorrow, by anyone except me, but i always think that "later today" might be the day when i suddenly learn not to be like this.

carry on.

i was diagnosed with this once, turned out it was not what i had. what i had was "work i didn't give a shit about"

getting a diagnosis and medication at age 26 changed my life, as they say. went from nearly being canned to a superstar at work (a lot of that was energy from the euphoria produced by "oh I'm not just an underachiever?")

haven't taken medication in over three years. it has been difficult, and i'm less productive than i could be. nice not taking stimulants on a regular basis though.

I have been diagnosed with lower levels of depression, anxiety, bi-polar and most recently ADD. How bad these things are is uncertain because I've always been on different meds over the past decade. I was never a hyperactive kid. When I took an ADD test several years ago I got a near perfect score meaning if anything I had heightened attention when focusing on a task I deemed important. But yeah it wasn't til recently that I started taking meds for ADD (not ADHD) in a low dosage.

Yeah, I have the comorbidity and the ADD. Taking meds for the former, not the latter. When I get a job again, I'm doing whatever I can do to get back on an externally reinforced structure & regimen again, since it did wonders for me when I was a student.

I was formally re-diagnosed as an adult a few months ago and started on Vyvanse, and the difference is night and day. That said, I think that finally being adequately medicated may have led to my depression getting worse- finally having some clarity and drive, and then being faced with the gigantic hole I'd dug myself into (and the realization that the first medication that actually works for me was brought to market about a decade too late) fucked with me pretty badly. At my doc's recommendation I'm off it for a while to see if that brings the anxiety level down any, but I doubt it will.

Are you in therapy, or just taking meds?

Lots of therapy and Prozac.

I dont understand why they give anti-depressants for ADD. I get that the symptoms are similar but arent these different parts of the brain that are being affected? I was diagnosed ADD by a psychiatrist when I was 20. I got lazy about taking the dexamphetamine and stopped after a year. Since then Ive been given serveral different anti-depressants and i dont know why. I mean Im clearly not depressed. This latest 'severe' ADD diagnosis coming from an actual test that I really tried to pass but failed miserably has made it pretty clear to me that ive been medicated unnecessarily for close to 15 years.

what im really interested in is why people with ADD often have a panic disorder too.

I don't know neuropsych, I just know that I have the comorbid conjunction of depression(dysthymia) and anxiety swimming around in my head. From my teenage years on, the depression was the foremost element until I moved to Portland 6 years ago, when anxiety took over.

my anxiety went through the roof (and is still up there) when i moved to USA

you guys now got me curious about geographical breakdowns of anxiety. there was some twitter-based study about west coast being 'happier' than east coast.

i found this but it sure looks like mostly bullshite

What is attention deficit disorder (ADD / ADHD)?

ADD is a neurological difference 2 in how the brain operates. An ADD person will display one of six related patterns (Daniel G. Amen, M.D. 3 )
1. Classic (DSM-IV) combined type - meet requirements 1 and 2:
a. Inattention (six or more of following - to the point that they have been a problem for more than six months)
1) Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in work, schoolwork, or other activities
2) Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks

3) Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly

4) Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand)

5) Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities

6) Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort

7) often loses needed items (keys, pens, books, tools)

8) Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli

9) Is often forgetful in daily activity

b. Hyperactivity and impulsivity: (six or more of following)

1) Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g. butts into conversations or activities uninvited)
2) Often has difficulty awaiting turn

3) Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed

4) Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat (adults may express by tapping finger, etc.)

5) Often moves about in situations where the norm is to remain seated (classroom, meeting, workplace)

6) Subjective feelings of restlessness (usually acted upon by younger children running around or climbing excessively in situations where inappropriate)

7) Difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly

8) Often talks excessively

9) Is often on the go or often acts as if driven by a motor

2. Classic (DSM-IV) predominantly hyperactive type - meet requirements 1 and 2:
a. Inattention (LESS THAN SIX examples)
1) Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in work, schoolwork, or other activities
2) Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks

3) Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly

4) Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand)

5) Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities

6) Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort

7) Often loses needed items (keys, pens, books, tools)

8) Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli

9) Is often forgetful in daily activity

b. Hyperactivity and impulsivity: (SIX OR MORE examples)

1) Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g. butts into conversations or activities uninvited)
2) Often has difficulty awaiting turn

3) Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed

4) Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat (adults may express by tapping finger, etc.)

5) Often moves about in situations where the norm is to remain seated (classroom, meeting, workplace)

6) Subjective feelings of restlessness (usually acted upon by younger children running around or climbing excessively in situations where inappropriate)

7) Difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly

8) Often talks excessively

9) Is often on the go or often acts as if driven by a motor

3. Classic (DSM-IV) primarily inattentive type - meet requirements 1 & 2:
a. Inattention (SIX OR MORE examples)
1) Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in work, schoolwork, or other activities.
2) Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks

3) Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly

4) Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand)

5) Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities

6) Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort

7) Often loses needed items (keys, pens, books, tools)

8) Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli

9) Is often forgetful in daily activity

b. Not as much Impulsivity and Hyperactivity (LESS THAN six examples)

1) Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g. butts into conversations or activities uninvited)
2) Often has difficulty awaiting turn

3) Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed

4) Often fidgets with hands or feet

5) Often moves about in situations where the norm is to remain seated

6) Subjective feelings of restlessness

7) Difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly

8) Often talks excessively

9) Is often on the go or often acts as if driven by a motor

4. Overfocused type - meet requirements 1 & 2 :
a. Severe difficulty in paying attention:
1) Difficulty with sustained attention or erratic attention span
2) Easily distracted by extraneous stimuli

b. Fixation (FOUR signs of being very inflexible)

1) Excessive or senseless worrying
2) Disorganized or super-organized

3) Oppositional, argumentative

4) Strong tendency to get locked into negative thoughts, having the same thought over and over

5) Tendency toward compulsive behavior

6) Intense dislike for change

7) Tendency to hold grudges

8) Trouble shifting attention from subject to subject

9) Difficulties seeing options in situations

10) Tendency to hold on to own opinion and not listen to others

11) Tendency to get locked into a course of action, whether or not it is good for the person

12) Needing to have things done a certain way or becomes very upset

13) Others see as worrying too much

5. Depressive subtype - meet requirements 1 & 2
a. Severe difficulty in paying attention:
1) Difficulty with sustained attention or erratic attention span
2) Easily distracted by extraneous stimuli

b. Moodiness (FOUR signs of moodiness or depression)

1) Moodiness
2) Negativity

3) Low energy

4) Irritability

5) Social isolation, hopelessness, helplessness, excessive guilt

6) Disorganization

7) Lowered sexual interest

8) Sleep changes (too much or too little)

9) Forgetfulness

10) Low self-esteem

6. Explosive subtype (10-15% of ADD people) (violent acts up to and including homicide - doesn’t know why or no good reason)
a. Severe difficulty in paying attention:
1) Difficulty with sustained attention or erratic attention span
2) Easily distracted by extraneous stimuli

b. Explosivity:FOUR signs of explosive temper

1) Impulse control problems
2) Short fuse or periods of extreme irritability

3) Periods of rages with little provocation

4) Often misinterprets comments as negative when they are not

5) Irritability builds, then explodes, then recedes; often tired after a rage

6) Periods of spaciness or confusion

7) Periods of panic or fear for no specific reason

8) Visual changes, such as seeing shadows or objects changing shape

9) Frequent periods of deja vu

10) Sensitivity or mild paranoia

11) History of a head injury or family history of violence or explosiveness

12) Dark thought: may involve suicidal or homicidal thoughts

13) Periods of forgetfulness or memory problems

What’s going on in the brain?
Classic - combined, primarily hyperactive, and primarily inattentive types - prefrontal lobes low activity, especially when trying to concentrate
Overfocused type - top-center of frontal lobes overly active
Depressive type - limbic system overactive plus frontal lobe low activity
Explosive type - temporal lobe overactivity
Medications for these types are different

Classic - all three types - stimulants - ritalin, dexadrine, adderall, cylert; if those don’t work then Wellbutrin or tricyclic antidepressants or Chlonodine (anti hypertension med)
Overfocused type - anti-obsessive antidepressants - prozac, paxil, zoloft, etc.
Depressive type - stimulants with anti-depressants
Explosive type - anti-seizure medication (stimulants can make worse) or anti-seizure medication with stimulants

Oh I'm far happier being out here in Portland than Ann Arbor, since I felt like my life was stagnating there the last 2-3 years I lived in Michigan.

Also, 15 minutes ago I was informed that I got a temp job, so we'll see if this helps with the anxiety.

I heard about A.D.D. from an RA in my sophomore year dorm who had it, and went hunting online about. Found a FAQ in '97 or so that listed like 20 symptoms, and I had 17. that's when I knew something might be up.

anxiety is classic for people who move. its suppossed to take 5 years to get through all these stages. ive been here nearly six years and i only recently moved on from stage two.

The Five Stages of Culture Shock

Culture shock is divided into five stages. Each stage can be long standing or appear only under certain conditions. It is important to realize that culture shock is a perfectly normal condition which affects persons differently, just as grief, shock and other pressures in life. Some people show stronger reactions than others and not all experience all the five stages of culture shock. Some people do not progress through to the final stage.

The first stage is often called the "honeymoon stage". It is characterized by tension and expectations. While it is going on, people enjoy the excitement that arises from being in a new place where everything is interesting. Some people never leave this initial stage of the excitement that goes along with being abroad. They are constantly experiencing a mild ecstasy and behave like eternal tourists: travel to new and interesting places, make friends only with their fellow countrymen and retain their old way of living. For most people however, the honeymoon passes by and they enter into the second and most difficult stage of the culture shock.

The second stage is the actual shock. It can be characterized with loss of courage and general discomfort. Changes in character occur, depression, lack of self-confidence and irritation, people become more vulnerable and prone to crying, more worried about their health, suffer from headache, bad stomach and complaint about pain and allergy. Difficulties with concentration often occur and reduce the ability to learn a new language. These factors increase the anxiety and the stress. In this period, the self-awareness dissolves and people have trouble with solving simple problems. Conversations on this stage are about things that can not be bought, what you must get along without, and everything that the people in the new country do wrong (which means "differently").

This stage can be characterized with escape, because in this period you always think of returning to the old country. People tend to regard ones own culture as the only way to do the things. This attitude has been called "ethnocentrism". That is the belief that ones own culture, race and nation is the navel of the world. Individuals identify with their own group and its habits. All critical remarks are regarded as a provocation to the individual just as the group. "If you criticize me, you are criticizing my country, if you criticize my country, you are criticizing me." Therefore people often show hostile and aggressive resistance against the host country on the second stage of the culture shock. This hostility comes from natural difficulties that a family or individuals run into in the adjustment process. "I feel terrible in the new country, there must be something terribly wrong here"!!! There are problems in school, difficulties with language, trouble with lodging and employment as well as the fact that the people in the host country just don't care about these problems or don't seem to understand them.

The result is aggressiveness and discomfort because the people don't seem like foreigners at all. Therefore it is important to understand culture shock and what is going on in relations between people. It is important to consider carefully the conduct toward people suffering from culture shock. In the beginning, people are often well received, but when time passes and the novelty disappears, the attitude often turns into indifference or dislike which immigrants experience as hostility. Thus aggressive hostility can escalate on both sides. Instead of regarding the difficulties in a cultural context, people speak about these problems as if they were specially invented by the host country, in order to get the visitor into trouble. Under such circumstances, circulating stereotypes emerge, which can lead to collisions if people don't practice tolerance. "These Icelanders", or "these immigrants" are so and so.......!

The third stage of culture shock is characterized with one's plunging into new ways of living. With patience, it is possible to reach this stage by the end of the first year. Key aspects in a new culture are being learned and the earlier chaos and lack of direction seldom appears. Relations with the native population are initiated, such as neighbours and workmates or schoolmates. The vocabulary and pronunciation is being learned. Instead of standing outside and watching the culture with critical eyes, people plunge into the life of the new country.

The fourth stage is the final stage of the assimilation, characterized with full participation in the way of life in the new country. People seldom think of "them" and "us". They have assimilated to life, regarding both emotions and general activities and life just as easy as before moving.

The fifth stage: Long after people have moved back to the homeland, something unexpected happens. They experience the fifth stage of the culture shock. It is called a reverse culture shock or returning shock, and appears after the return home again. The homeland is not comfortable any more because people have been away from home for a long time and have become comfortable with customs and habits belonging to a new lifestyle. Much has changed and it takes some time to get used to way of life, gestures and symbols of one's own culture.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3578/adderall.jpg

For me, my anxiety was (I think) almost entirely financially based. I had a rough time supporting my self when I first got here, and was laid off of my first job after only two weeks.

I dont understand why they give anti-depressants for ADD. - I was prescribed Wellbutrin for ADD at one point & it did absolutely nothing for me. Granted, the distractibility & listlessness resulting from various depressive conditions could be easily mistaken for textbook ADD, so antidepressants are probably a common step in the diagnostic/trouble-shooting process if there is any question about where one stops & the other begins. Me, I'm an ADD kid AND depressed, so I rely on a daily coctail of Zoloft & Adderall in my pursuit of being a productive & well-adjusted adult. I'm mostly OK w/ it, tho ADD drugs are hella addictive.

Well, yeah, ADD drugs are stims.

unless you *actually* need them, in which case they turn your brain from a fleeting maelstrom into a bracketed list (w/ bullet points & everything) and, as such, can have a calming effect.

but yeah, chemically they are basically meth

Well, yeah, they just stim certain parts: the right ones.

the right ones - talk to me after you've spent twelve hours completing crossword puzzles.

most of the headlines i see discourage this but has anyone tried treating their ADD with videogames?

I think that is the most ADD sentence I have ever read!

That is meant affectionately!

xxxp - actually, you just have to make sure that you get started on the right foot w/ whatever "responsible" task you are attempting to complete, otherwise you can get lost in the minutiae of pretty much anything, however seemingly mundane.

my understanding is ADD drugs work the same way on non-ADD people, too?

in terms of an increased ability to focus, yes. tho a non-ADD person will prob notice the stimulant factor first & foremost (& this is why they are abused as coke substitutes etc.), whereas someone with legit ADD will likely experience a calming effect b/c of the lack of disconnect b/w competing impulses.

Of course, if you snort, double-up etc. w/ any of it, you are going to get a heavy stimulant effect, ADD or no.

I would think that video games might make people more ADD -training people to seek entertaining, interactive distractions in every situation

Video games encourage me to play obsessive compulsively. For instance, in modern day RPGs you are rewarded for picking up every little thing and selling it (this is time consuming but it's like seeing money on the ground that I can't just leave there). I also tend to play all the modern RPG games like a power gamer seeking the perfect build for my character/s which often requires tedious tasks like saving and reloading to play through different dialog options to see which will boost approval points the most. I could go on and on about how video games turned me into an obsessive compulsive gamer. Maybe some folks with succeptible personalities take on traits that are like their gameplay style - being extra cautious, OCD or whatever

i love you guys :(

Me, I'm an ADD kid AND depressed, so I rely on a daily coctail of Zoloft & Adderall in my pursuit of being a productive & well-adjusted adult. I'm mostly OK w/ it, tho ADD drugs are hella addictive.

im ADD and Anxiety Disorder so i got adderall + xanax. Very nice combo btw.

also i dont find adderall (or'uppers'of any kind) even slightly addictive or 'fun'.

if someone could make a non (physically) addictive oxycodone that you couldn't build up a tolerance to and it didnt fuck up your respiratory system and whatever else over time then quite honestly all other drugs would be dead in the water for me. 20MG OXYCODONE = Energy, clear mind, zero anxiety and a positive disposition.

"whereas someone with legit ADD will likely experience a calming effect"
this seems like an interesting diagnostic tool -- sorting people by their reactions to ADD drugs -- which makes me suspect that

"I could go on and on about how video games turned me into an obsessive compulsive gamer."
someone's reaction to videogames might also have this sorting effect. If you get tweaked -- you're not ADD, if it calms you down, makes you focused, you have ADD?

ie the person i wish i was (xp)

hey, guys: i'm in school studying this stuff right now. just wanted to pop in and say that dopamine is strongly implicated in an ADD/ADHD diagnosis. Since a lot of anti-depressants work by raising certain neurotransmitter levels, they are frequently prescribed by doctors whether or not anxiety/depression is apparent.

it should also be mentioned that ADHD kids evince a high occurrence of chemical pleasure-seeking behavior (espesh through drugs/alky) that can be mitigated by diet/exercise changes (to maximize dopamine levels) as well as low-dose, slow-release prescription stims.

yeah i have found exercise essential. it doesn't eliminate the core problem of being unable to regulate (non-sexual) arousal, but it helps with mood and concentration, and yes, makes me less drinky.

Dr. Mario prescribes 2 hours of Nintendo DS (Dopamine Surge)!

video games raise dopamine levels, too

ehh, link doesn't work. try <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2007/brain/video-games";>this one</a> instead.

let me also say that i'm happy this thread exists. ADD is difficult to talk about with non-sufferers, such as my extraordinarily productive friends. it seems that it's hard for them to view it as anything other than a character flaw (which, in some sense, it is.)

I was just diagnosed a few years ago (after a few years of suspecting as much). I was on Ritalin for a little over a year and it did wonders, to the extent that I mistakenly thought I was sorted and went off the meds and the therapy for a year. I hopped back on the wagon last year, but found that the Ritalin wasn't doing a thing for me anymore. If I ever manage to get my shit together and see a doctor again, I'll give something else a shot.

I function fine day-to-day, generally speaking. The most profound thing I got out of the medication was the ability to strategize (strategy being something I only had an academic understanding of before). That ability to plan bits of my life out several steps in advance was astounding to me. It's admittedly a little frustrating to be stuck back in that 'one move at a time' headspace.

Oh, and that article is absolutely correct: ADD has saddled me with all kinds of guilt and stress and depression that exist as a direct result of these stupid stumbling blocks. I'm glad, at least, that I'm cognizant of those things as symptoms of a larger problem and not the problem in and of themselves. And it is difficult to talk about (still haven't ever discussed it with anyone in my family), and it does make me feel like a jerk sometimes (like when I realize that I've got a decent brain otherwise and I feel like a whiner in a world full of people with much bigger problems). It always feels nice to know that there are others in the same boat.

Ha. you already responded for me:

talk to me after you've spent twelve hours completing crossword puzzles.

with

most of the headlines i see discourage this but has anyone tried treating their ADD with videogames?

Yes, the answer is:

http://www.gamershell.com/static/boxart/large/uk/9258.jpg

http://www.gamershell.com/static/boxart/large/uk/9402.jpg

http://www.hiphopgamershow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/kotor_cover.jpg

http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mass-effect-2-box-art.jpg

Starcraft ][ is downloading as we speak.

You're talking to the guy who started I LOVE GAMES, even

Video games encourage me to play obsessive compulsively. For instance, in modern day RPGs you are rewarded for picking up every little thing and selling it (this is time consuming but it's like seeing money on the ground that I can't just leave there). I also tend to play all the modern RPG games like a power gamer seeking the perfect build for my character/s which often requires tedious tasks like saving and reloading to play through different dialog options to see which will boost approval points the most. I could go on and on about how video games turned me into an obsessive compulsive gamer. Maybe some folks with succeptible personalities take on traits that are like their gameplay style - being extra cautious, OCD or whatever

Yeah, the games that suck me in the most either have the deepest immersive narrative qualities(western rpgs like anything Bioware does, Witcher, Fallout, or even San Andreas) or let me run a system(Tropico, Civ 4, AOE3, Napoleon: Total War)

yeah it's interesting how usually the media portrays games are part of the whole quick cut/schizophrenic/twitter/add modern society thing but in many ways they are the total opposite

let me also say that i'm happy this thread exists. ADD is difficult to talk about with non-sufferers, such as my extraordinarily productive friends. it seems that it's hard for them to view it as anything other than a character flaw (which, in some sense, it is.)

― LA river flood (lukas), Thursday, 29 July 2010 19:26 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

is ADD unproductiveness and muddle-mindedness then? Of the long list above, I could tick off an awful lot, do I have ADD?

Once when I was feeling low and unmotivated, and after reading too many websites instead of working ( "easily distracted"!) I went to the doctor... with printout.... his advice was good in retrospect : "I could book you in with the psychiatrist if you like, but you'd be better off doing more exercise, eating well, and pulling yourself together, this is what life is about." I still feel low and unmotivated, but more convinced that that's me, and I'd be someone else if it wasn't the case. don't really want to be someone else.

( really hope this doesn't come across as belittling your illness, not intended that way at all, just that there are lots of positive/negative/neutral character traits that get medicated and diagnosed just because they don't fit some ideal of capitalist/ western/ whatever psychology.)</challops sorry>

Your doctor gave you some good advice, but telling you to simply 'pull yourself together' is pretty shitty and unprofessional. Some people may just be lazy and happy to wallow in their misery, but a lot more people would actually like to improve their lives, and if they knew how to 'pull themselves together', they would've fucking done it already. Sheesh.

yeah it's interesting how usually the media portrays games are part of the whole quick cut/schizophrenic/twitter/add modern society thing but in many ways they are the total opposite

Well yeah, it takes a full generation or so to change course on media narratives & stereotypes, doesn't it? We've talked about this on ILG, too, that , numerically speaking, video games are primarily played by office ladies and have been for like 5 years.

no offense, but that's the attitude that make me never want to tell anyone i have ADD.

my understanding of the difference is this: exercise and other forms of self-help will only do ADDers so much good. if you actually don't have ADD, enough motivation and the right life adjustments would allow you to be consistently focused and productive.

if you do have ADD, "exercise, eating well, and pulling yourself together" won't do the trick alone. they will help and are certainly worthwhile, but the symptoms are still there to a frustrating, even demoralizing extent. i eat very healthily, am in the best shape of my life, and i'm constantly trying to engineer my life for better productivity. and still ...

iiuc, the solution is either to structure your life in a way that your inattentiveness isn't salient (eg, for some people, real-time interactions with humans keep them interested, so they can be successful as salesmen or whatever) or to take medication, or a combination of the two.

xposts

no offence taken, and I didn't intend to come across as offensive either. I don't understand the concept of being "consistently focused and productive" and my fucking god I'd be depressed if I allowed myself to think that other people can do that without a massively exhausting mental struggle but still I don't think the solution is to find solutions, but to not worry about my failings and cherish and develop the things I'm strong at. and, in this short life, accept that failure in some/many areas is fine.

wait.on the other hand, MAIL ME YOUR WONDER DRUGS THEY SOUND ACE!

ADHD/ADD is not behavior based hyperactivity and skittishness (though that is how it looks, and often how it manifests), but rather a set of partially-understood underlying neurological conditions in the frontal lobes/limbic system/reticular activating system that, by any of a number of processes, make inhibitory action more difficult than they are in an average (non ADD/ADHD) person.

I suspect this lack of inhibition is a survival advantage in hypervigilant tribal warfare situations (hence maybe the dominance of warfare games listed above)?
maybe you (us?) ADD dudes were born too late. would've been the top sniper/hunters during medieval times.
just makin' leaps.

Part of it comes from the fact that we still have massive stigmas around this stuff, since any sort of mental otherness is completely misunderstood.

I'm about to get really abstract and this is full-on stream-of-conscious and not all that well constructed but here goes:

It's something about how most people think that their mind is completely separate from their brain, Everything that happens in your mind is completely controlled by you with no subconscious, neurological, or biological underpinnings.

Mix the Enlightenment idea of the mind with the weird Romantic/hippie-leftover mindset that we shouldn't need drugs at all, that all "drugs" are unnatural and thus bad, that our brains are all fine if we just "snap out of it".

This weird sluice of chemicals and pathways and circuitry that we have lodged inside this calcium deposit of a cranium controls how we think. If the neurochem production is off or badly EQ'd or whatever, involuntary behaviour can result. You get depressed, anxious, ADD traits, or a thousand other symptoms.

Modern society is constructed in certain ways and works with how the vast majority of people's brains process. Thom Hartmann has written about this, about how the ADD mind works perfectly well in different circumstances other than the ones we experience daily that cause us the issues.

There is shit we can do to offset these symptoms(exercise et al), but there is still a fundamental difference in how we process things. Meds and therapy can help that.

Hell, I'm of the opinion that every single person on the planet would benefit from talking to a pshrink, therapist, analyst or whatever; someone trained to help you process the stuff you encounter on a daily basis.

Right then, I hope some of that made sense or was applicable.

maybe you (us?) ADD dudes were born too late. would've been the top sniper/hunters during medieval times.
just makin' leaps.

Yup, exactly. Thom Hartmann wrote an entire book positing this:

http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Deficit-Disorder-Different-Perception/dp/1887424148/

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V5DB68HFL.jpg

Thing is tom GPs are generally not great at addressing potential neurodiversity, (or mental health problems for that matter). I tend to think there's more to all of this stuff than an impairment that will ever be fully identified and treatable - in terms of its impact on people who experience it. But there are a lot of people who very much would like neurodiverse conditions to be purely medical or purely social. Think this is an unhelpful way of thinking about them.

If the neurochem production is off or badly EQ'd or whatever, involuntary behaviour can result.

And of course there's a strong argument that all behaviour is involuntary, in some sense.

ADD dudes were born too late. would've been the top sniper/hunters during medieval times.
just makin' leaps.

is kind of an interesting point. however, the inhibitory controls/impulse-delaying-abilities suffer globally in a lot of ADHD cases – and not just in 'boring' or 'academic' or 'civilized' scenarios. it's easy to conjecture that ADHD-types throughout history were at at much higher risk for accident/poisonous berry eating/bear-poking injury than their more focussed colleagues, and had a far shorter life expectancy.

on the other hand, the same lack of impulse-denying might have assured that they would procreate at a higher rate than their more sober peers.

run around, screw a cavewoman, molest a saber-toothed tiger, die

And of course there's a strong argument that all behaviour is involuntary, in some sense.

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 29 July 2010 20:25 (19 seconds ago) Bookmark

^^ I do tend to believe this, I'm just here to enjoy the ride, and give the riders around me a helping hand. I'll shut up now, have talked to much and am slightly embarrassed.

run around, screw a cavewoman, molest a saber-toothed tiger, die

― Eggs, Peaches, Hot Dogs, Lamb (remy bean), Thursday, 29 July 2010 20:26 (38 seconds ago) Bookmark

YES!!!

I'm definitely noticing a major difference in my attentiveness and ability to Get Shit Done at work after being off the meds for a couple of weeks (for example, I'm posting here).

One thing I find hard to deal with is that I seem to need _what I'm doing_ to be a distraction. For instance, I have the hardest time reading now, but when I was in junior high and high school I had no trouble plowing through the biggest, densest books I could get my hands on (your Pynchons & DFWs and what have you) in part because I was supposed to be doing something else. Likewise at work I have major difficulties staying on task and, for instance, calling up a list of delinquent accounts (even though the task is already broken down into steps for my by virtue of its being a simple LIST) but I can happily suck up the entire Lacan and Zizek wikipedia entries, compile a neat little list of books to check out of the library, and proceed to never follow up on it because OH HEY NOW IT'S TIME FOR (Ghost Box/William Klein movies/Oulipo/modern fashion design/some other shit) that I never get more than a dilettante's understanding of because ZOOM off to something else. And this is with medication; Vyvanse is the bst I've dealt with so far but it only really helps me with work and other tasks with some external direction. When it comes to doing my own thing it's still an utter mess.

And video games, Christ, don't get me started. WOW was a huge mistake... Visual stimulus + easily accomplished, clearly defined goals with immediate rewards + manageable, anonymous, low pressure social contact = CRACK.

^^^ this is normal, though isn't it? some people just do a better job of suppressing it, don't they?

what's the mechanism for "doing a better job" tho? Any model of human behaviour based on willpower leaves you with a bunch of questions about what it is and how anybody can increase it thru their own efforts.

i.e. the fact that some people are better at not doing things that are personally or socially destructive doesn't tell us much about why they are better at it.

i blame my parents

I think there's a fair amount of evidence that the main thing you can blame your parents for is your genes, really.

(unless you're adopted)

i meant parents in the biological sense but yeah

what's the mechanism for "doing a better job" tho? Any model of human behaviour based on willpower leaves you with a bunch of questions about what it is and how anybody can increase it thru their own efforts.

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 29 July 2010 21:14 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

crikey, I dunno. I'm just trying to fathom out whether this is "a thing" at all, or if I'm just well practised at getting away with being lazy. and other ppls mileage varies, I'm sure.

How normal is it to be with a group of people having a conservation and barely focusing on them but rather focusing on reading and posting on ILX via your phone?

Some people can just listen and join in on the conversation and be content. Some people have to be on their phone or doing something else besides just being there at the conversation. I think that is what ADD is. Technology has in some way made people more ADD

a character flaw (which, in some sense, it is.) - yeah you're right. similarly, clinically depressed people just need to lighten up a little bit & get over it already.

jesus dude. seriously?

Well, I have trouble focusing as part of my basic makeup. It's not a moral failing, but wouldn't you call it a character flaw?

I'm just trying to fathom out whether this is "a thing" at all, or if I'm just well practised at getting away with being lazy.

I wasn't just interrogating you, I was thinking out loud.

If I was trying to prove that ADD/ADHD is "a thing" I would look at evidence that chemical or behavioural interventions can change the way that some people diagnosed with these conditions behave. I think that evidence exists.

I'd also wonder about whether a word like "lazy" is a description of observable behaviours that gives the impression of a solution to those behaviours buried in its connotations. So maybe you're lazy. Work out what that means to you, and whether that label helps, and go on from there.

noodle vague dropping ill science itt

There are exceptions to my scenario (needing to be on the phone during tons of conversations) and people have different levels of ADD but I just wanted to illustrate that ADD is real (I used to be bugged by a friend of mine in college who refused to believe in several mental illnesses)

need to spend time away from ILX, I'm talking bullshit and here isn't the forum for it. 'pologies.

but wouldn't you call it a character flaw? - "having trouble focusing" is one thing. Extreme, chronic distractibility & impulsivity is another. Either way, anything innately having to do your brain chemistry could hardly be described as a character flaw.

Also, as has been pointed out, exercise, diet & lifestyle conditions are key to combating both ADD & depression, but that does not mean that does not mean that such maladies are necessarily rooted in bad lifestyle choices. Sometimes, the right level of healthy living can itself keep the problems at bay & sometimes meds and/or counseling are essential as well. It just depends on the situation and the individual.

tom you provide useful levity

Extreme, chronic distractibility & impulsivity

right, which accurately describe me. i think my use of words in this thread could be improved on.

anything innately having to do your brain chemistry could hardly be described as a character flaw

see I don't think ADD can be neatly cut away, leaving my true personality intact. I suspect you don't either. anyway, don't we often use "character flaw" to describe non-volitional aspects of our personalities?

Some people can just listen and join in on the conversation and be content. Some people have to be on their phone or doing something else besides just being there at the conversation.

not sure if this has anything to do with ADD, but I find that I am much better (more tuned in) in 1-on-1 conversations than group discussions. i don't think it's just because it's ruder to play with my phone when i'm with one other person; i think the fact that the other person is paying constant attention to me focuses me.

can you suggest ban yourself? I've just been trying, but I lost count around halfway so I may or may not have got to 51.

Dude I don't think anybody's pissed off?

nah i mean i have struggled with the same questions tom. it's useful to have the naive commonsense pshawing represented here.

tom, you can't SB someone (whether yourself or not) just by pushing the SB button multiple times, it needs 51 different people to do it to get a temp ban.

How normal is it to be with a group of people having a conservation and barely focusing on them but rather focusing on reading and posting on ILX via your phone?

i'm always impressed by people who can pay attention to a conversation and their phone at the same time, i can't even have a conversation when a television is on in the background.

Interesting video pointing out that autism charities are behind the times in terms of avoiding pity-based advertising:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3DwCn6VeZY.

I just met this young film-maker's mom. Both his parents are academics with strong views on neurodiversity that colour their work in ways I'm not quite comfortable with, yet probably help 'balance' the field.

On the whole I am anti-pity and pro-compassion.

Ljubljana, are they for or against neurodiversity re autism?

Ive prob said before my closest friend's son is autistic but I wanted to post this little mother and son classic asd exchange from her blog:

After seeing me yell out after stubbing my toe:
Louis: "What?"
Me: "I hurt my toe, Louis"
Louis: "No you didn't, I am fine"

I mean seriously <3

Heh, that's pretty good.

They're deeply pro-neurodiversity, and I think it gives them a very useful alternative perspective on a lot of claims about information processing in autism - but I also think it leads them to dismiss some partially useful constructs *too* completely, because they haven't been described in the language of neurodiversity. The idea of autistic people 'lacking a theory of mind' for instance, is offensive to them. That language probably isn't helpful, it's true (and not just because it could be construed as offensive, but because of the confusion it can engender about what it really means). But, what has come to mean has evolved and become more complicated over time. It's not good, I think, to dismiss the huge range of ideas that 'theory of mind' currently covers as if they were one idea.