In which Tuomas learns the ways of Americans

Your innocent questions about why Americans are the way they are and do the things they do: ask them here!

fuck fastening a hubcap!

tell me about tipping

red states = right wing

blue states = left wing

wtf

Yeah, that's always been weird to me, since red is obviously the traditional colour of the left.

that confuses me too but it makes sense if you think of all the manly red things like red meat and blood and fast cars and other things republicans like

Yeah, lols to be had when the right wing nutbars are using commie colours. Makes bugger-all sense to me too

Well at least it means you can say there's reds under the bed and it has been true for the last 4-8 years...

But more seriously, my question about black voters was genuine: if one of the key reasons for the Obama victory is that he managed to mobilize them better than previous Democratic candidates, how can the candidate after Obama do the same?

Oh Americans, while you're there, how do people like your current bell-end of a president not get shot when he's spent the past eight years clearly begging for it?

See there's this little thing called the Secret Service...

Shhh, they're a SECRET!

Clearly, because nobody would own up to taking a bullet for that fuck.

But more seriously, my question about black voters was genuine: if one of the key reasons for the Obama victory is that he managed to mobilize them better than previous Democratic candidates, how can the candidate after Obama do the same?

Being awesome is going to help.

bill was pretty awesome then everyone got upset about a blowjob and forgot how unawesome life can be

then learned again real fast

well, if you call 5+ yrs fast

this has probably been pointed out before on this board, but the "blue states, red states" thing came about during the ordeal of 2000 (I think). It just so happens that during that year, the Democratic states were colored blue. In US it makes an intuitive sense, since blue conjures up images of water and red connotes hotter or drier places (or religious fervor).

But more seriously, my question about black voters was genuine: if one of the key reasons for the Obama victory is that he managed to mobilize them better than previous Democratic candidates, how can the candidate after Obama do the same?

― Tuomas, Tuesday, November 4, 2008 6:46 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

uh KEEP MOBILIZING THEM. this is essentially the second time you've answered this same question yourself

Secret plan for victory in 2016:

1. Be awesome
2. Be latino

Eric Garcetti would fit the bill nicely, but will probably be too busy being Gov of California.

i want more tuomas questions

uh KEEP MOBILIZING THEM. this is essentially the second time you've answered this same question yourself

Yeah, but what sort of candidate can mobilize them in the same way? Are they gonna choose a black candidate again.

Oh yeah, and what's the deal with Americans and nudity?

we only like it in the movie "porky's"

I haven't seen that, what makes the nudity so special?

we don't like nudity because we have a lot of fat people here

actually i wish i knew the real answer to this, i have wondered for a while. not every state makes it illegal for women to go topless, but it is frowned upon. i also don't get why people get mad at public breastfeeding

Actually I was referring to this thread, one of the first ones where I learned the ways of Americans:

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=22267

But I can continue this while I'm a bit less tired and more sober.

tuomas we are a nation of x-ians who are totally pure and shit, and also - the fat thing has some merit

It's kinda sad if only thin people feel comfortable naked though.

thin people with hairless nipples!

fatness is not the real reason though! this is like an ask dr. freud question. i think dr. freud would have a good answer.

i mean america has serious body image issues but there is just general weirdness about nudity that can't be explained by that. actually maybe both of these things have a common cause that involves christianity and other things.

puritan heritage

actually i wish i knew the real answer to this, i have wondered for a while. not every state makes it illegal for women to go topless, but it is frowned upon. i also don't get why people get mad at public breastfeeding

― horrible (harbl), Tuesday, November 4, 2008 9:31 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i wish theyd make men going topless illegal. i dont want to see that shit.

everyday can't be xmas you know

sigh. yeah.

oh, and naked is bad because it make you think about sex which is lust which makes baby jesus cry.

his name rhymes with two hummus

Oh Americans, while you're there, how do people like your current bell-end of a president not get shot when he's spent the past eight years clearly begging for it?

Dick Cheney. The horror...

Reposted from the election thread:

I find it interesting to compare your election to the local elections in here. In the last two elections Social Democrats, traditionally the largest leftist party iin Finland, have been losing votes because they've had a hard time winning new, young voters. Whereas the rightist party (and the Greens even moreso) have won new votes partly because they have a youthful, forward-thinking image. Of course the difference between the Finnish rightist party and the Republicans is that the Finnish rightists are economically right-wing but otherwise quite liberal. So I was wondering, how can the American two-party system contain all the differences that are found within, say, "rightist" or "leftist" voters? Wouldn't it make more sense for the Republican party to split into two, with the socially and economically conservative forming their own party and the economically right-wing but socially liberal having their own? How did the two-party system in the US come about anyway?

― Tuomas, 5. marraskuuta 2008 18:01 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

So I was wondering, how can the American two-party system contain all the differences that are found within, say, "rightist" or "leftist" voters?

it can't.

i love when tuomas repastes stuff and the months are like

― Tuomas, 5. marraskuuta 2008 18:01 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

So I was wondering, how can the American two-party system contain all the differences that are found within, say, "rightist" or "leftist" voters?

it can't.

How come you've had it for so long then?

because no enough people are interested in voting for crackpots. more to the point, there is no proportional allocation system in the house and senate so anyone who wants to make it in as, say, a green party senator must do so under his or her own political skill

the economically right-wing but socially liberal having their own?

most "conservative" folks I know under 40 fit this description to varying degrees. I think if the libertarians could find somebody who's not nutty, economically naive and possibly racist (Ron Paul), or an unpersonable turncoat weirdo (Bob Barr), they could very well have a shot at winning over lots o this demographic.

but i mostly just want to see the republicans wallow in failure for at least 8 years.

this has probably been pointed out before on this board, but the "blue states, red states" thing came about during the ordeal of 2000 (I think). It just so happens that during that year, the Democratic states were colored blue.

Yeah, I believe the networks used to switch off from one election year to the next, but only in 2000 did people start referring to "red states" and "blue states" based on the map used that year. The association between color and party is now so entrenched that it's not likely to change any time soon. And very few people in the U.S. think of red as "the color of the left" -- at least not our left.

Even though you used to have slogans like "better dead than Red"?

There must just not be enough (mainly young) economically conservative, socially liberal voters to make a difference nationally in the Republican party, much less a third party. (xpost)

Yes, even though we used to have slogans like "better dead than Red".
xpost

I don't think people think of the Democratic party as communist, aside from some rhetoric this election that obviously wasn't all that convincing. They're much more centrist.

yes. in 1954. xpost to Tuomas

w/r/t nudity: a bunch of female friends surprised me when they informed me that they wore bathing suits that covered their chests even as toddlers. One girl's parents were repeatedly chided by strangers for not covering their 4 year old daughter's chest. Riiiidiculous.

whaaaaaaaat

i will weigh in with the idea that breasts and genitals are much more exciting when you don't see them flopping about in the open all day long

we were talking about four year olds

communism is such a non-factor in the usa except as an abstract bogeyman that you can't even attach a color to it

also, 2 party system is only thing that can really work in the political system we have. when parties become so weak because of internal contradictions, they cease to exist (whigs, federalists) and then another party rises up from the ashes with a slightly different agenda

Do you think the two-party system will hold into the unforeseeable future then? Why is it so hard to challenge? Surely not all of the people trying to find an alternative to it are "crackpots"... For example, during the last couple of decades in many European countries the Green parties have really managed to challenge the old political systems based on left/right polarities, gaining a significant percentage of votes, especially among young voters. Why isn't that happening in the USA? Would it be possible there?

(x-post)

when 3rd parties start to attract about 5-10 percent their agenda gets co-opted (and watered down) by one of the big parties

gbx: I have seen little girls (I presume, judging by the long hair and color of other clothes) at the beach without bathing suit tops, but this was a group of maybe 5 girls telling me that that was not the norm in their experience.

This summer, I saw a mother wash her naked son's ass in the water fountain meant to be used to rinse sand off of people's feet at the beach, so right now I am pro-clothes all the time.

29 years old he was

haha was waiting for that joke

how old was the donkey?

well played

most of the 12 month old swimsuits i looked at at the beginning of last summer were bikinis. they seemed really wrong to me. all kids should be wearing those SPF 100000000 swim t-shirts anyways

http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/files/extranet/images/aah/SuperSaturation_DivingSuit.jpg

those hands look a little too exposed for my liking

Tuomas- I wish you could be an ambassador. I'll write to my new president and suggest it.

But more seriously, my question about black voters was genuine: if one of the key reasons for the Obama victory is that he managed to mobilize them better than previous Democratic candidates, how can the candidate after Obama do the same?

black voter turnout was not the only reason Obama won this election; and a good point to keep in mind that many of the newly elected senators and house members rode the Obama wave; I think this signals a huge change in the democratic party as well. The party has NOT been united like this in many, many years...maybe ever? When Clinton won, sure, he had both the house and the senate but there was a fair amount of division in the party then.

jesus Tuomas if yr really this interested in why America has a two-party system, has race issues, nudity issues, whatever just read a book. Its called Democracy in America.

it's called Democracy and Nudity in America, Shakey Mo

Isn't that like from the 19th century?

we had nudity in the 19th century tuomas

Anyway, the reasons for the race issues I understand, and maybe the nudity issues too, but if you could actually recommend a good book on why the American politival system is the way it is today, I'd be glad to read it.

...

wtf dude READ DETOCQUEVILLE

MORE LIKE I HAS A COCK VILLE RITE

start here dude

http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/image/A2329/23297/300_23297.jpg

oh don't do that to him, he might read that

it is probably the best, most insightful book ever written about the fundamental issues and ideas underpinning America's democracy and is totally relevant.

sorry for the serious suggestion, lets get back to the lollorists

x-posts

I'm being serious here, no need for cheap jokes.

(x-post)

Yeah, I've heard the Tocqueville book is very illuminating, so maybe I should try that. But surely there must be some more recent books on the subject too?

it really is a good starting point

also try Hunter S. Thompson's Campaign Trail '72 book.

gbx: I have seen little girls (I presume, judging by the long hair and color of other clothes) at the beach without bathing suit tops, but this was a group of maybe 5 girls telling me that that was not the norm in their experience.

― another regrettable cheesesteak (Jesse), Wednesday, November 5, 2008 10:43 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

weird. i just sort of assumed that no one cared

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_historical_documents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:United_States

Me too!! xp to gbx.

I've tried to imagine what leads to covering your girl child's chest. What I've come up with:

1. Female chests get covered. Period.
2. Best not to risk the appearance of impropriety.
3. Best not to tempt child molesters.

Tuomas' questions about the two-party system are not stupid, and y'all's answers are not smart.

Tuomas: the two-party system has largely been entrenched by a series of really dumb Supreme Court systems in the 70s and 80s. I would recommend picking up a copy of Lani Guinier's "The Tyranny of the Majority" for more specific information.

I really think its more about dressing little girls up to look like little adults or cute or whatever than i has to do with nudity. XP

I disagree that it is more about that, but that probably plays some part.

I think it's about the patriarchy controlling women's bodies ASAP.

nah.

I will repeat what I said about breastfeeding in public: I breastfeed in private, but would feel extremely uncomfortable doing it in public. It's okay if others do, but I'll still look away and turn a bit reddish. (Except probably when it's a close friend and I'll ask to join in.)

Yeah, that's always been weird to me, since red is obviously the traditional colour of the left.

You never learned why they are called rednecks?!?

Oh, I still breastfed in my pediatrician's waiting room when noone was around. Elisabeth bit me twice really hard. hah.

I always thought/heard that rednecks were called rednecks b/c they were rural folks who worked outdoors and their necks got sunburned.

I think sexism certainly plays a part in it, even if it's not the only explanation. Women's bodies are more sexualized than men's, and therefore even little girls' bodies need to be made to look properly "feminine" from an early age.

(xxx-post)

xxpost that's what i learned as well

I am serious about Tuomas being a great ambassador.
I think he would be great BECAUSE he's asking the important questions.

Also, I would go to the embassy parties.
xxpost whatever

when i was a little girl i think the only alternative to wearing a one-piece, chest-covering suit at the beach would've been little boys' swim trunks. am i missing something?

I'm sure they sell string bikinis for toddlers at this point

Isn't that like from the 19th century?

Irrelevant. De Tocqueville is always OTM.

the two-party system has largely been entrenched by a series of really dumb Supreme Court systems in the 70s and 80s.

gotta disagree here - the two-party duopoly became entrenched way before that, and in many ways is built into the Constitution and the constitutions of the individual states, (ie no provisions for proportional representation = two party system)

guess which 19th century Frenchman offers an incisive analysis of American political parties and the resulting "tyranny of the majority'

Serge Gainsbourg?

when i was a little girl i think the only alternative to wearing a one-piece, chest-covering suit at the beach would've been little boys' swim trunks. am i missing something?

― Maria, Wednesday, November 5, 2008 4:33 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I can't really address tots' swimwear too well, but I wonder, would there be chest-covering little girls' swimwear but for the taboo of female chests? The causality here is pretty clearly female-nipples-unacceptable --> article to cover nipples.

One of my female friends said that she and her parents moved to Germany for a time when she was just beginning to bud, and while there she wore a top no more than boys did. I will have to ask what she wore. (Also, the Germans were befuddled by the concept of a "training bra.")

http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/Pepe.gif

x-post

Tuomas, what do little girls wear to the beach in your country? xp

sensible shoes

"The causality here is pretty clearly female-nipples-unacceptable --> article to cover nipples."

I don't think so, I think it's "adult swimsuits -> models for children's swimsuits" by default. Little boys' swimsuits are not different than men's, and for little girls' to be designed totally differently from women's, it would actually require someone to think "hey little girls don't really need as much coverage so maybe we should make different ones." And I don't think people see suits covering chests as a *problem*, even if it's not a necessity. (This is obviously not referring to toddler bikinis and parents choosing to put on or omit the top though.)

little girl swimsuits that don't cover nipples are precisely the same as little boy suits

except pink

or they look like the popular hipstre "boy short" women's underwear

Most little toddler girl's swimsuits I always recall were one piece things, usually with cutsey frills all over the bum. I dont think it was any more a modesty thing than a style thing (i'm pretty sure there's always been clumsy bikinis for toddlers too).

I dont recall anyone being het up about girls being topless when I was very young - I recall being in the backyard paddling pool in my undies on many an occasion.

My problem with that these days wouldnt be the modesty, but the sun protection!

Also, wtf with everyone sexualising little kids by saying their nakedness is wrong and perverted, YOU SICK BASTARDS.

Maria totally otm here. this is typical of what i came across when looking for kid swimsuits.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NWT-Girls-6-12-months-Pink-Ruffle-Bikini-Swimsuit-Swim_W0QQitemZ170276264419QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081103?IMSfp=TL081103107003r32291

that wouldnt cover anything for more than 10 minutes on a kid.

i really dont think this is pedophile fear or patriarchy repression. its just dressing up. i mean toddler girls run around in just diapers on tv commercials all the time, right.

and if you were trying to cover your kid up why on earth would you buyt a bikini to begin with???

The bikini simultaneously sexualizes the girl and covers her.

the fact that i was able to control my urge to make many horrible jokes in response to that last post points to a bright future for us all in a post-election world.

My dad has written a lot of non-fiction children's books. One of them, about X-rays, had a drawing of a boy (wearing underpants) that, when you held it up to the light, showed his skeleton (printed on other side of page). For the US edition they had to add a singlet so that you couldn't see his nipples.

http://www.zimbio.com/WrestleMania+XXIV/articles/20/Orlando+Orders+Male+Nipples+Erased+WWE+Billboard

matriarchy controlling mens bodies, yo (xp)

xpost, now that's just creepy.

lol america

Is Tuomas learning much here?

One of my female friends said that she and her parents moved to Germany for a time when she was just beginning to bud, and while there she wore a top no more than boys did. I will have to ask what she wore. (Also, the Germans were befuddled by the concept of a "training bra.")

In fairness, Germans are also often befuddled by the concept of a "bra."

The Büstenhalter, you mean?

Or is that a make of grand piano?

Why would Germans be befuddled by the concept of a bra?!

There's definitely bras in Wagner

Why would Tuomas be fuddled by the concept of a computer?!

I'm moving to DC early next year! For a research/science/technology funding and management related job. I'm too excited to ask any specific questions. Just tell me stuff.

you are not tuomas but good for you

ljubljumbla we have a thread again

Brad Pitt Has Your Secret Shit: Rolling DC

see we ran out of movies but then they made another one

Tombot: eh?

The title of every DC thread is a reference to a movie set in DC; this one references the recent Brad Pitt/Frances McDermott/John Malkovich movie by the Cohen Brothers.

ohhhh! Thanks, see you on there. Over to Tuomas.

tuomas you just need to visit the US, obv

he totally does! i will take him to quaint places like church and folk dances.

Come to K1ng's Ch4p3l in Boston! My wife and I sing there almost every Sunday during the academic year!

i think he needs to visit places like chugwater, WY

you won't be able to see any cool art or cathedrals or anything but damn do they have great chili

http://insearchoftheweird.com/photos/wyoming/chugwater1.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/209806722_b1930cc075.jpg

welcome!

we can do country on a day trip from boston. there's a road sign in western mass for "al's truck caps & square dance apparel," i bet that's a good place to start. also, there's a town in nh with an award-winning pumpkin catapult, it's pretty awesome.

Are you two fighting over who gets Tuomas?

btw if tuomas comes to the U.S.A., specifically MPLS, i am sure that i and other ilxors will get him drunk

^^^based on tuomas' stories that sounds like the kind of situation that would end with 'sexy' results

shut your mouth

pff, we can get tuomas drunk in any city. or EVERY city.

we can do country on a day trip from boston. there's a road sign in western mass for "al's truck caps & square dance apparel," i bet that's a good place to start. also, there's a town in nh with an award-winning pumpkin catapult, it's pretty awesome.

― Maria, Friday, November 7, 2008 6:11 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

LOL at "doing country" in Western Mass.

Tuomas -

2-party system is structural. It's not formalized anywhere in the Constitution (and was not anticipated by the Framers) but its emergence and continuation are ensured by several factors:

1. Most importantly, as other posters have pointed out, Congressional seats are awarded on a winner-take-all basis in each district. If a seat is won by Candidate X 51-49, it's won by Candidate X. If it's won by Candidate X 45-40-15, it's still won by Candidate X. Third parties have trouble getting traction in such a system - imagine that the 15 there is the Green party; people sympathetic to the Green agenda may still say "Wait, I'm ensuring the election of Republicans, with whom I disagree far more than the Democrats. The Green candidate will never win, so I should throw my chips in with the Democrats."

(Third-party movements that do acquire some momentum tend to be absorbed by one or the other party, or have their most pressing agenda items co-opted.)

2. Provisions for runoffs are not included in all races, and instant-runoffs are essentially unknown. There is no runoff provision for the Presidency, for example. This reinforces the effect discussed above - it's not like you can vote Green in the general election and then hop on board Democrat for the runoff, or list "Democrat" as your second choice. The pressure to vote for the lesser of two evils mounts up.

3. Changes to the above would require the involvement of the major parties themselves. There are very limited provisions for citizens directly amending Constitutions (at the state or federal level - and constitutions are basically what establish these electoral procedures). It's not clear what the incentives would be for parties in government to make it easier for other parties to push them out of government - unless those sitting are really tired of pretending to be Republicans when they wish they could just run as Libertarians, or alternately Christians In Government or whatever.

The US has had large third parties in the distant past, particularly regional or one-issue parties. In the 20th century, they tended to be one-man bands: Teddy Roosevelt's party, George Wallace's party, Ross Perot's party, and have not really sustained themselves beyond being spoilers in individual races.

Ralph Nader's 2000 bid is widely regarded as a spoiler enabling the Bush presidency, and he has received next to no support in his two subsequent presidential bids: under 3% in 2000, .38% in 2004, .5% in 2008.

I was hoping that would be a Nabisco post.

;_;

the two-party system is not specific to america. it's a consequence of proportional representation electoral systems. it's called duverger's law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

backwards! single-member districts tend to two-party system. proportional representation tends to multi-party systems.

oh i see it's already been covered by someone less drunk. at least you know what it's called.

Actually, that's helpful! Thanks for the name/link.

am0n = Doctor Casino

― ᑥ ᑥ ᑥ (libcrypt), Friday, November 7, 2008 12:46 PM

i will get in so much trouble for this one....

Go proportional representation!

???!?? Uh - I don't get it, where's that comparison quote from?

tuomas you just need to visit the US, obv

― homosexual II, 7. marraskuuta 2008 23:07 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he totally does! i will take him to quaint places like church and folk dances.

― Maria, 8. marraskuuta 2008 0:17 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I've actually been thinking for a while that I would love to visit the US. Maybe next summer, if I manage to save enough cash? The only problem is that I don't know what part of the country to go to. Obviously it would be nice if it was a place with some ILXors, who might want to act as native guides and show me around...

my offer to take you to church and folk dances stands! (i live in boston now, as does dan, apparently, but i don't know what other ilxors. ny, dc, and chicago have their contingents though.)

So, is this thread going to be made into a BBC3 SkyTV Virgin late night documentary or wot?

Thanks for the offer Maria, I will consider it.

Tuomas I think you need to visit California for proper WTF's

NY, DC, LA, Boston, SF/Bay Area, Chicago all seem pretty well represented here - I'm sure any local ILXors would love to show you around