Student in Class Plagiarizing Egregiously - Be a Snitch?

Post about it on a public message board so he'll be able to figure out who did it right away.

I was joking about the secret ILX user thing. He doesn't read ILX. No one reads ILX.

email him anonymously and tell him you know what he's doing and he should cut it out before you or someone else turns him in

people read the internet. is your name close to "mordy" in real life. if someone fwded dude this thread, you'd be up shit creek.

i say have a mod delete this thread ASAP and then snitch like a motherfucker

contact him anonymously, i tells ya.

not your responsibility to snitch, he'll fuck himself up whether he does or doesn't get caught

Yeah, I am so not worried about him finding this thread.

Even if he does. I'm not worried. He's not exactly the "drug-using teenager" type. (A little referencing other Mordy moral quandaries reference there.)

We basically have to post responses on a board

Does everybody submit their own answers to each question, or does each student pick one question?

why do you even care? how does this affect you?

Because if it's the latter, then the rest of your class is relying on his blatantly plagiarized work.

I think my gut says not to do anything -- if it's as easily detectable as a quick google, chances are he'll get nabbed soon enough anyway by someone whose actual job it is to nab him. (Also I had a bad experience with this sort of snitching in 9th grade.)

XP Neither. Open forum. Post your response to the text we're currently reading.

Turn him in. "Don't snitch" only applies when the administrators of the law have a long history of unfairly applying it/abusing power/etc i.e. the police. There is no code of the streets in a college classroom, unless it's in some dry-ass sociology book.

What happened, nabisco?

xxp

xpost - Yeah, that gut instinct would change if there were any reason, however small, that the quality of his work had a connection to anyone but him and his academic career

(Also I had a bad experience with this sort of snitching in 9th grade.)

Tell this story!

I snitched on a plazerizer in 9th grade too. Dude got mad fuckin' busted.

Tell him you're going to inform the teacher. Give him a chance to fall on his own sword at least.

Just confront him, tell him "you googled that, aren't you worried someone will find out?"

a) my dad's an academic, and if this 'post to a board' deal is anything like the one he has to use, it runs everything through some googlizing plagiarism detector. if statements from the post get hits from internet it lowers the confidence level of the work and the prof can go check it out. so if it's egregious with this guy you might not have to do anything.

b) if this is really on your conscience or pissing you off or if nothing happens, you should say something. i can't decide whether the best thing to do is to snitch on him or say something TO him. either way: http://www.sendanonymousemail.net/

Turn him in. These people piss me off SOOOOOO MUCH.

If the teacher is too lazy to catch this stuff, the student deserves to get away with it.

nabisco I am fabricating quite a wicked story in my head of your ninth grade evil acts!

If the teacher is too lazy to catch this stuff, the student deserves to get away with it.

― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:52 PM (31 seconds ago)

oh bullshit

Haha what happened in 9th grade was that I was one of very few people in English class who read a certain book over winter break, and I got like a C+ on my paper about it, and then made the grave social error of complaining out loud about getting a worse grade than a bunch of people who didn't even read the book. (This example has zero bearing on the current question but might explain the way my gut reacted.) There was a tense classroom moment where the teacher suggested that if I was aware of anyone not reading the book, I should see her privately and name them, which I pretty obviously was not going to do. Although in retrospect it was pretty hilarious how everyone avoided looking in my direction at that exact moment.

As Spider-Man, he becomes a successful TV star. One day at a studio he refuses to stop a thief, saying that it is the job of the police not that of a number one star. Weeks later his beloved guardian, Uncle Ben, is murdered and an angry Spider-Man sets off to capture the killer. When he does, he is horrified to find that the man is none other than the thief he refused to subdue. Learning that with great power comes great responsibility, Spider-Man becomes a vigilante.[19]

turnitin.com

Somehow the amoral lesson I took from this was "worry about your own grade and keep mum about everyone else unless there's a curve involved"

Seriously, though, the one time I've ever been to Hawaii I spent half the time reading Dickens instead of snorkeling, that C+ can bite me, I was OTM about that book

http://thesexycrimes.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/stop-snitching.jpg

I would never criticize anyone for being bothered by this sort of thing, but I've always been of the opinion that as long as my work is fairly graded on its own merits, I don't care what grades my peers get.

if you're going to snitch, tell him your intentions to his face first. don't be a sneak about it.

why not?

ah nabisco i have so much empathy with your ninth grade self (if that's even a proper use of the english language)

i wouldn't personally snitch, but i might anonymously email him links to all the stuff he's plagiarized. and that's it. no explanation or threats or admonishments necessary.

That's just creepy torture, though!

I mean, it's so "I know what you plagiarized last summer" -- seems like any moral logic should either lead to ...

(a) report it
(b) ignore it
(c) have a man-to-man conversation about it

... and not creepy anonymous hints or half-measures that might come off like overtures to blackmail or anything.

call in the ethicist

as soon as randy cohen enters the room he'll probably break down and admit it

Don't, I don't like that guy anymore. He was so wrong a few weeks back that I almost started getting into an email argument with him about it.

you're right :(

my thinking is that it would just make the person feel like a total asshole and wonder how many folks wre on to him... but yeah, I guess that would seem kinda creepy.

xxxpost to nabiso

... and that was the moment I realized I would never be cool again

I realy don't think the person reporting the offense to the teacher has any ethical responsibility to give the guy a heads-up/free pass and kind of don't get the reasoning - anybody wanna make that case, that the guy is somehow owed an extra here?

J0hn, I think it's just a kneejerk peer-group vs. authority-figure thing

bust his ass

cheaters that get away with it go on to cheat more and eventually REALLY fuck shit up, often not just for themselves.

(Also a half-and-half way of avoiding a real decision, like it's not snitching but it's not letting it slide)

Shakey Mo OTM.

It would allow him to do the right thing and report it himself. Once he's turned in, he can't.

(^^^am thinking mostly of an acquaintance who's signifnicant other lied and cheated hsi way through law school and then poured gasoline on himself and set himself on fire the day before he had to explain how he'd broken into an office and stolen records to the authorities)

x-posts

http://www.hbo.com/thewire/img/castcrew/character_season05/character/scotttempleton.jpg

It would allow him to do the right thing and report it himself

or be shamed into writing his own shit

And that's never going to happen – this isn't a Christian animated special for tots.

It would allow him to do the right thing and report it himself. Once he's turned in, he can't.

well, that's a lovely thought, and the OP considers himself this dude's spiritual counselor/life coach and wants to really help him out, OK, but there's no ethical responsibility to go out on a limb here - if they're friends, OK, yeah, "dude I know you're copying and pasting from Amazon and I feel like I have to say something if you won't cop to it," but if they're not, it seems above and beyond the call of niceness to do anything other than heads-up the teacher

however Abbott based on long study I would say you are wrong and that life is in fact a Christian animated special for tots.

Absolutely, JOhn. I'm just saying that's what I would do.

xpost

Also, *whew* 'cause otherwise I 've posting on the wrong thread.

After the last few years I just wanna see PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS PERP WALKS around every corner so bust him.

eh u dont know what this person has going on in their life - i agree that u dont owe them anything - but the kindest approach would prob to have a lil talk w/them of the if i noticed others will too whats up w/u variety

I'm not sure what could be going on in a person's life to justify such bullshit

like "my dad beats me - I HAD to cheat!"

I think that would be an excellent way to get mad stinkeye as the most positive potential result.

xxp

if i was desperate enough to plagiarize and someone confronted me on it, i would surely slap together some original work rather than face the consequences of getting turned it.

I'm not sure what could be going on in a person's life to justify such bullshit

Being a lazy, stupid, self-entitled fuck (I think I may be confusing causation & justification).

Either that or kill the guy who noticed, that'd be way easier

You UNDERSTAND, nabisco!

"If I can find this out through simple google search, you're obviously not a good enough cheater to get away with this and it might be easier to just stop wasting your time and actually do the course work. Hint, this may be a 'life lesson' to you, too."

I thought there'd be much more disagreement on this. So everyone thinks my "peer-pressure" don't-snitch instinct is bullshit?

I got an eraser thrown at me in calculus for asking someone in class to quit being really, really loud. This year!

I remember sitting opposite this guy in an exam who had all his notes and textbooks open underneath his desk, and he kept bending down to read stuff.

But yeah, don't snitch.

am thinking mostly of an acquaintance who's signifnicant other lied and cheated hsi way through law school and then poured gasoline on himself and set himself on fire the day before he had to explain how he'd broken into an office and stolen records to the authorities

wau if yr not being metaphorical here

not your responsibility to snitch, he'll fuck himself up whether he does or doesn't get caught

― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:41 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think your two choices are a) tell the teacher b) don't tell the teacher but you don't want to tell this person that you know what's going on. also ice cream OTM--who knows what is going on in this person's life to make them do this dumb crap

I'm not sure what could be going on in a person's life to justify such bullshit

― There was even a brief period when I preferred Sally Forth. (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:28 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Being a lazy, stupid, self-entitled fuck (I think I may be confusing causation & justification).

― Abbott of the Trapezoid Monks (Abbott), Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:29 PM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

or maybe their mom just died or they cant get their favorite kind of gum anymore

what would you say would be the cause of such righteous indignation for such a relatively inconsequential violation

who knows what is going on in this person's life

i buy this for a lot of things but not plagiarism

Tracy, you are dismissing my obligation, but not suggesting that I have an obligation NOT to cheat. Which was my opposite compulsion. An obligation to protect a fellow student V. an obligation to to snitch. Etc.

Bah. Have an obligation not to snitch.

Getting distracted because I'm sitting in class. (Sitting in the class that the plagiarism happened in.)

i say don't do anything, and it's not a question of "it sucks to snitch" or "A Kid Who Tells On Another Kid is a Dead Kid" it's just not your place to tell the teacher this sorta stuff

hopefully yr teach knows how to work the Google machine on his/her computer

if it's as easily detectable as a quick google, chances are he'll get nabbed soon enough anyway by someone whose actual job it is to nab him.

― nabisco, Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:47 PM (43 minutes ago)

This bears repeating. If the instructor doesn't catch this, he/she needs a slap upside the head.

I think we have all seen enough Law & Order to know what happens when you confront people about stuff. You really got ask yourself: how much do my loved ones want to meet Chris Noth?

can u take a pic of the plagiarizer w/yr cellphone for us plz

The worst that has happened when I've tried to tip off teachers is them being like "GOD kid just mind your own business and let ME do MY job (ps I am a terrible professor)."

If it doesn't matter to you or your grade/standing, fuck it - not your problem.

no I am not being metaphorical, actual self-immolation was involved. I never met/knew the guy myself.

x-post

it's just not your place to tell the teacher this sorta stuff

whose place is it?

XP to photo request: I think that's crossing a line I'm already tiptoeing on. Sorry.

ha i would probly decide this based on how much i liked the dude otherwise. if he was kind of a bro i'd maybe raise the issue that he was playing with fire. if he's a cock, burn him.

xp shakey that's wild shit

whose place is it?

the teacher

Further consideration here: just think how you'd feel if you didn't say anything and then you graduated and this guy got a better job than you

And THEN you got stung by a scorpion!

i'd think how much more embarassing it's going to be for him to get fired from that job than to fail an exam

Don't, I don't like that guy anymore. He was so wrong a few weeks back that I almost started getting into an email argument with him about it.

― nabisco, Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:14 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

which one??

Did you ever face these quandaries in rabbinical school, Mordy?

No. We were only quizzed orally on things (since so much of our curriculum was memorization). The few times we had written tests, the Rabbi encouraged us to let our fellow students cheat off us. Since we were all in it together and it didn't mean anything anyway, etc, etc.

Which sounds in hindsight like a bizarre way to encourage cheating where it isn't okay later down the line.

s1ocki -- the one about letting the woman and her daughter through the security gate at the storage facility

hawaii dickens=great expectations?

the term "snitch" here is getting used wrong - just doesn't apply in this context. one can make an actual case, as I said above, for not ratting people out to police when the police have a history of gaming the system - planting evidence, circling wagons, etc. the classic mafia version of not snitching also involves in-family/system punishment meted out to people who are doing wrong (nb offing one's enemies doesn't count as wrong in this setup, so it's a different code). when there's a possibility that a person will get screwed by power structure to whom he's being handed over, there's an ethical case to be made for greater-good in not letting that system dictate the terms.

none of this shit applies in a classroom, unless the teacher is Pol Pot or something. it is not snitching to tell the teacher what's going on. apples and oranges.

o btw the teacher is pol pot

respect to the organization

But, J0hn, you can't deny that "not snitching" has become a sort of classroom rules. Maybe wrongly so, but you cannot deny that "being a tattletale" is stigmatized, both by fellow students and by the authorities themselves.

i think the difference is that the mob/gangs operate as enemies of the establishment, so to snitch is to make a move against your team. in a classroom setting, unless your prof is really fucking things up for himself, that kind of "us against them" mentality really shouldn't be there.

but it sort of always is, right?

something i realized today:

it doesn't matter how much your students like you
in some way, the teacher will always be the enemy

i saw one of my best and nicest and most favorite students cheating while i was going over instructions to the exam. i stopped talking and looked at her while she was copying some punctuation rules from a little sheet onto her exam. then i just kept talking because really? why bother. sigh.

― La Lechera, Friday, December 12, 2008 11:35 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think if yr going to involve yrself in someones life to this extent u should at least have the backbone to start the process face to face

Also, I sorta wonder if my resistance is not due to some internal code and honor, but because I still have residual worries about wanting to be liked by my peers. The second seems less legitimate than the former. (And I take the distinction from you guys - having a code exists in the Mafia. What I have is peer pressure - and self-produced peer-pressure as well. No one is actually pressuring me one way or the other.)

I think if you're a big enough dick to plagiarize you ought to be prepared to take your lumps however they come

I say, if snitching on a cheater carries a stigma, then snitch anonymously.

all u pro-snitching types make me sick - not surprised john d's bangin the drum for that shit

i guess i should say that in a gang or the mob, if you are a member, it's part of the code that you are to be looking out for each other. to snitch is to break a mutual trust that is held. and while the teacher is the authority figure and therefore the "enemy" at times, there is not necessarily a bond or agreement between the students that would be broken should mordy inform the prof about what's going on.

I think if you're a big enough dick to plagiarize you ought to be prepared to take your lumps however they come

― J0hn D., Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:03 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yah john thats fine for the cheater but what abt the snitcher - this sort of complete internalization of institutional ethos at the expense of relating to each other as humans is sort of creepy to me - o noes someone has broken the rules sound the alarm

Mordy, it's completely understandable to me. Even beyond that weird social stigma where "tattling" somehow lets people write you off as a smarmy, self-interested weasel, you know that snitching will have a major negative effect on the guy's life, and it is always hard to do something that's going to screw someone over, especially when there's no real incentive or benefit to you. Leave alone 18 years of young-personal socialization that are fundamentally about assuring one another that you're cool and cover for one another's rule-breaking, it's hard to pull the trigger on bad things happening to someone; you feel like a dick and you know someone people will consider you a dick on "what difference does it make to you" grounds. It's not like that doesn't make sense.

Don't snitch, it's none of your fucking business. If his plagiarism is as obvious as you say, then the professor should eventually discover it himself. It's really not your place to tell on him and potentially ruin his academic career, get a life.

^^ doesn't usually matter if they deserve it, either, it's just not pleasant to make bad things happen to people; nobody likes it, even when they know it has to be done

I don't think "the rules" here are anything but 1) completely reasonable 2) transparently known before you agree to enter the institution - it's not like the State, where you have to live with the rules no matter what. that's why "snitch" is not an appropriate term here - anybody who thinks plagiarizing is somehow acceptable can stay the fuck out of the classroom & quit degrading its environment with his bullshit

I mean, plagiarism is stupid and anyone who does it deserves to get caught, but I wouldn't go around telling on people when I have nothing in particular to gain from it. I could see if this was a group project or something.

and brainwasher this guy has no actual "academic career." he should be exposed.

ur cold as ice, jd

Wait, J0hn, what people are conflicted about isn't the fairness of the rules, it's about participating in enforcing the rules -- something I think it's healthy and reasonable for people to give serious thought to

Haha what happened in 9th grade was that I was one of very few people in English class who read a certain book over winter break, and I got like a C+ on my paper about it, and then made the grave social error of complaining out loud about getting a worse grade than a bunch of people who didn't even read the book.

This appears to be a rite of passage for "brighter" kids. It happened to me, too.

------

Anyway, I would track down the people he plagiarized and ask them what they think about it. They're the ones whose ideas are being stolen.

then write a paper abt it to be delivered in front of the class last day of school

a school has a duty to go after cheaters cos it has to be able to say the thing it makes -- an educated person -- really is what they say it is and not a fraud.

how much a student needs to help doing that, i dunno.

In this case, "snitching" == telling the truth. It is not like informing the secret police about a political crime.

This is not a case of protecting an activity which deserves protection, or assisting a power which is proveably corrupt, or where the moral acceptibility of cheating falls into a gray area. It being done for entirely selfish motives, taking advantage of a trust, and seeking unfair advantage through lies.

If that is sickening, go ahead and be sick.

It being done for entirely selfish motives, taking advantage of a trust, and seeking unfair advantage through lies.

counterpoint: who cares

repeat: what people are conflicted about isn't the fairness of the rules, it's about participating in enforcing the rules

Really, what do you have to gain by telling on this guy besides a smug sense of self-satisfaction?

kids who torture pets:serial killers::college plagiarists:Madoff-type swindlers

In this case, "snitching" == telling the truth.

Yeah, when nobody asked you, and the consequences of telling said truth could be awful for some guy who did nothing to you.

yeah but "the rules" here nabisco are that rarest of examples - rule to which one submits voluntarily, with no real consequences if one chooses not to participate - I don't think they sub well for Authority or The Rules etc. - academia is dreamworld, I think having it stand in for how one acts in one's neighborhood, job, etc is a non-starter. you get to choose if you're going to be there. you shouldn't show up if you're not willing to abide by the most basic of its rules, and people are justified in wanting the integrity of the institution kept whole, or as whole as possible.

Well, I do believe that there are serious problems with plagiarism. I'm not worried about whether it matters or not. I think it matters. A lot. I'm worrying about whether I should act on it. XP to Brainwasher

Ironically, Madoff served on the board of my University.

Or maybe not ironically.

im not in the who the fuck cares camp - i do think plagiarism is unfortunate and prob somewhat degrades some important thingies - but its not the omg worstest thing ever - having a word w/dude or sending him a anonymous email will at least give him a chance to mend his ways in a situation where the school admin will prob overreact

well sure - I did say, if somebody feels like being a super stand-up guy, g'head and pull the afterschool special on this guy. but there's no obligation to, nobody owes a plagiarist anything though most plagiarists would disagree.

Yeah, J0hn, I'm just trying to draw a distinction so we don't have to argue about whether rules about plagiarism are fair. Pretty much everyone thinks they are. Mordy's discomfort is a social discomfort about stepping up into a situation where you take a role in enforcement of those rules, which is a whole different thing. And answering that question is what leads to a lot of justifications about whether its your place to do anything, justifications that can let you avoid the discomfort.

I mean, there is a reason people don't want to know about these things, beyond wanting to pretend they don't happen -- it is legitimately uncomfortable to have to take a role where you're involved in someone else's exposure and punishment! Most of us sensibly want it to happen but want nothing to do with it.

We would all answer somewhat differently if this thread were about Blagojevich, wouldn't we

the consequences of telling said truth could be awful for some guy

He knew the consequences. Thought he wouldn't get caught. He needs to learn differently.

Christ, it's like you people weren't even paying attention when Enron and WorldCom burned millions of people and the financial system just crashed and will blight the lives of hundreds of millions of poeple.

It happened because a lot of people cheated, because they thought they'd get away with it. Maybe, if they'd learned...

Because the public trust placed in him and his authority are FAR greater.

Not in kind, only in degree.

by "you people" Aimless clearly means J0hn D

Like I said upthread, if his plagiarism is as obvious as Mordy states then the Professor should find out sooner or later, and it the Professor doesn't find out then he deserves to get away with it because the Professor isn't doing his job. It's not Mordy's place to tell on him.

Passing the buck.

he deserves to get away with it because the Professor isn't doing his job.

See, here you're contextualizing this in the Mafia terms I was using earlier. That there's nothing implicitly wrong with the action, only with bucking the authority. And I don't buy that.

Because he doesn't deserve to get away with it no matter what the Professor notes or doesn't note. I just don't want to be the one to turn him in.

here's what it comes down to imho:

-- This guy is going to fall on his own sword, someday. He can't get away with it for the rest of his life.
-- I'd send him an anonymous e-mail.
-- I also would like to state that any sort of 'forum' that schools are using for students to 'talk' about readings or whatever is fucking HORSESHIT. I made certain that I never took any undergraduate classes that used this lazy-ass way of 'teaching,' because that is what it is indicative of: lazy fucking profs who don't want to actually read students' papers.

just tip off the professor there's cheating going on without naming the culprit

ya but does he really deserve to NOT get away with it? marinate on THAT one my friend~~

Hell. By "you people", I merely indicate the sentiment shown by a large number of people that it's someone else's business when the system is being gamed and that letting someone in a position to stop it know it is going on is somehow pernicious or morally degraded.

He deserves to not get away with it. Yes. I wouldn't feel guilty if he were punished without my help.

FWIW, MBA students are notorious for being some of the biggest cheaters around. Somehow I'm not surprised.

I suspect part of the divide on this thread may = whether people think college is a bunch of bullshit, "lolcollege", etc. I don't, but if you do, I'm guessing you'll probably view cheating/plagiarism is meaningless.

Also, if you think a professor has time to Google every phrase in every fucking student's assignment, you're nuts. Maybe tenured longtime faculty do, but new hires (let alone grad student teachers) are running around like headless chickens half the time. When it comes to catching cheaters, an assist from a non-axe-grinding student would totally be appreciated by 95% of the profs out there, unless the prof has been boffing the cheater in question.

lol cankles

but Charlie if the professor doesn't waste his time trying to catch cheaters, he's not doing his job!

Be a man! Walk into class, gun him down, expose his plagiarism, saying, "I hate cheaters as much as I hate snitches", do your time and get on with life.

lolz. Best solution so far.

That being said, no one can promise that if you tell on the guy, he won't find you and shoot you, or some equally unpleasant form of revenge. I think that's one of the big reasons people keep their mouths shut when they see others doing shitty stuff; you can never really know for certain that you won't get royally fucked up for your trouble.

xpost!!

people keep their mouths shut when they see others doing shitty stuff

The alternative to which is commonly known as "courage", that is.

Aimless I think that is a deliberate misreading of this thread!

Haha as far as ways of minimizing discomfort go, Tron's kinda onto a nice weasely trick there -- a nice cop-out way of doing the business without naming the name, so you can get the guy caught while still deluding yourself that you're in no way personally responsible for the exposure. Totally self-deluded rationalization, but you know, if that's what works.

P.S. I'm not sure how many people are actually claiming the "stay out of it" gene as an noble trait, as opposed to just a squeamishness some would indulge

in high school there was a guy who used to cheat off me in algebra class but in that case the best punishment was to let him do it because I was failing the class, I suck so bad at math it's not even funny

Who ultimately loses by this plagiarizing his work? He does. It has no effect on Mordy, so why should Mordy get involved? The onus isn't on Mordy to expose cheaters, it's on the cheater to not cheat OR the professor to confront the cheater. That's the way I see it. Again, if the guy's plagiarism is as "egregious" as Mordy states then the Professor should catch it. Obviously there was something fishy about his work that made Mordy do a google search...

this student**

P.S. I'm not sure how many people are actually claiming the "stay out of it" gene as an noble trait

i am

Yeah but your name is "cankles"

Brainwasher, there's a kind of abstract, collective argument to be made that every uneducated fraud passing through the university diminishes trust in that university, lowers its reputation, and eventually lowers the value of the degree Mordy worked and paid for. (This is a very generalized, abstract argument.)

is it possible for there to be more than one moral thing to do here? if you didn't do anything i'd be fine with it, if you talked to him i'd be fine, if you ratted him out i'd be fine.

mordy, what do you want to do? w/o thinking too much what do feel like doing about it?

But precisely the sort of argument which marks the difference between a culture less rife with corruption and one more rife with corruption, Nabisco.

xpost

there's also the argument made above that when this guy gets a job on the merits of his education (theoretically one of the benefits of an education = positions of greater responsibility in society), a person poorly equipped to handle responsibility will have it. case by case it's a small effect - who'll really suffer when some asshole with shitty ethics goes on to whatever admin position he has? but add up many cases and the importance of swatting each fly is clearer.

i just think telling the truth is overrated in most walks of life. if this were the professional world and he were making money off this shit that'd be one thing, but he's just tryna cheat his way through school - if he gets caught, that's cool he deserves it, lol at him for bein dumb, but if he doesn't well shit, who's hurt by that? nobody!

I think I just explained the potential later repercussions of cheaters getting over

Also, "plagiarized everything he has written" = the guy's a fuckface. It's one thing to cheat once or twice, in situations of desperation, but to do it for a whole term smacks of low-level sociopathy, at least to me.

xpost (to cankles) or everybody, depending on your POV

Well yes - xpost to Michael

I keep changing my impulses on this, by the way: I've now started to feel like ... the easy thing to do is send the anonymous email to the professor. And it might sound weaselly and cowardly, and maybe later in life you'd feel a bit small for taking that route, but, you know, when did Mordy ever promise to be brave and forthright? It's not like he wanted to catch someone cheating; he just wants it taken care of without having to get personally involved.

I think I just explained the potential later repercussions of cheaters getting over

― J0hn D., Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:51 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what, unqualified ppl will get good jobs? who cares!!!! it happens everywhere anyway. it's not like if u 'bust' this guy now he'll never be employed again.

ever had a shitty boss, cankles?

By not naming the plagiarist you'd not only be minimizing your own guilt at being a snitch, you'd also be reminding the prof of an aspect of his job that he isn't doing

sure did, some of them didnt go to college either

~~~

It's tenuous to argue that there's a direct connection for most graduates between their qualification and their ability to do their eventual job. That only really applies to certain professionals where not knowing your stuff would leave you unlikely to get a job anyway. I also think the comparison between fraud which involves deliberately bilking other people and cheating at college is inaccurate.

he will presumably have jobs with less authority and closer supervision, cankles

Send an anonymous e-mail to teacher and bcc the cheater, stating that the teacher knows and the cheater now knows that the cheater knows.

haha yeah shame the prof! he's the one falling down on his duty, esp if this kid's plag. is so flagrant

If you want to really have fun, bcc the head of the department, too.

he will presumably have jobs with less authority and closer supervision, cankles

^^^

there are benefits to graduating from college, presumably. this guy does not deserve them.

xpost - Haha these seem like the exact OPPOSITE of a plan to keep things simple and stay out of it

I also think the comparison between fraud which involves deliberately bilking other people and cheating at college is inaccurate.

I don't know, I find it easy to imagine someone who would cheat openly FOR AN ENTIRE TERM (this isn't getting emphasized enough!) being the kind of smug sociopath who is best outed as early as possible.

I mean, we're not talking about your friend in high school who got beaten up by his dad so he didn't study for that one test, you know?

What you imagine is one thing, and what might be the case in reality is another thing.

I just find it funny that ethical questions make me feel like there is some noble straightforward Right Thing to Do, but in this case it feels more and more to me like the weaselly anonymous route is perfectly satisfactory, kind of like with church tithes

Yes, and one might imagine all sorts of reasons why you're choosing to identify with the plagiarist.

(xpost)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

email cheater this thread for lolz and forget it - and take that pic i asked abt

CASE CLOSED!

Charlie, in the space of 3 posts you more or less accused some dumbass trying to witlessly cheat a college course as a "sociopath", and then me of identifying with this dangerous sociopath when really I'm just interested in this as a question of applied ethics. It doesn't really seem like I'm the one who's personally invested here.

owned

I'd call this fucko out on the board in front of god and everybody. I fuckin' hated the idiots who watered down my masters' program by skating through with barely any functional knowledge of the subject at hand, if I knew somebody was cheating and he was doing it right in my face I'd have his ass.

Icey otm up in this bitch

Actually I'd probably ask the prof/instructor first if they already knew and were planning to deal with it, because 1. they probably do 2. are probably waiting to see how deep a hole this douche digs for himself before having him expelled - it's their class, so they run the show

I disagree with all the comments that he can't get away with this for his entire life, it'll catch up with him someday - it doesn't sound like he's being very smart about it, so it might catch up with him next week, but it's more than possible that he'll get away with it forever. I'm sure lots of cheaters do, and I'm sure many of them go on to live perfectly comfortable, secure lives after college. And possibly for some of them cheating on papers is an isolated incident in the past, as long as they take jobs in totally different areas. And the prospect that cheating will only bring him future gain, and never future harm, is actually more infuriating than the latter but it's worth considering.

I never managed to vote in this poll. Not sure what I'd do in that situation.

I'll freely admit to being personally invested in the concept of fuckers not getting away with cheating, Noodle Vague.

Part of what we're seeing here is a split between people who are comfortable bringing hammers down and people who are like "oh crap, I never wanted this hammer in the first place," no?

Start slow, maybe. Indirect suggestion. Play it right though.

Tom's reason for snitching seems fair enough to me but not really a moral reason so much as a question of professional self-interest. That's still a good enough reason. If you treat this situation as a question of morality I think it's a lot murkier and I'm pretty sure that I think professional self-interest is the only good reason to snitch here.

I guess it might also depend on the program and the course content - in the case of my MS, these are people who were going to be trying to compete for jobs where they might go on to design or manage a system that protects' people's credit ratings and soldiers' medical records or something like that, so the idea that Moron A could get by being demonstrably Moron in nature was pretty grating/worrisome - if this is like a 200-level cribby required course, I'd likely give about as much of a fuck as the cheater does (still would actually do my own work or do no work at all, though)

I think professional self-interest is the only good reason to snitch here.

This seems crazy to me. The dusty concept of "civic duty" seems on point here, as does Kant's categorical imperative, etc.

And again, just on a practical level, people learn to not do wrong by getting caught. If the guy's a sociopath, and he's never going to learn on an ethical level, at least this "outs" him a bit earlier than otherwise might happen, and fucks up his future prospects just that little bit. If the guy's not, this might help teach him not to fuck around. Win-win, barring a Sam Peckinpah-style violent outcome.

Honestly, this sounds like small potatoes, not something to get worked up over. My neighbor is cheating on his taxes! That one old lady always takes all the spare change out of the leave-a-penny, and I know she isn't even that poor! Dude is cheating! If it's directly fucking you up (say, like, he's blowing the curve and you're hanging onto a B by the skin of your teeth), or if you just hate the guy and want to burn his ass, then go ahead, do what you have to. But don't make it into a heavy moral question. Save that for real transgressions with real victims.

For the most part, I'm inclined to think that people who run off to tell the authorities when it isn't strictly required are assholes, busybodies, and bad neighbors. They shitify the world, increasing paranoia, resentment, isolation and authoritarianism. Trivial interferences just make life difficult for everybody, especially the authorities. This isn't the "code of the streets", it's simply live and let live: an attempt to create a mutually habitable world.

john d is managing an impressive level of self righteousness across 2 threads today, kudos

people learn to not do wrong by getting caught

Or, more accurately, through the concrete and immediate negative consequences of their wrongdoing.

xpost Like I said before, I guess it all depends on whether you think college is trivial bullshit, or something to be taken seriously (on an ethical level).

Charlie, I'm sort of with you here, but I don't believe for a second that you'd apply that logic to any form of wrongdoing, or anyone who happens to have knowledge of it. I don't think anyone on this thread believes that categorically -- everyone draws a line somewhere.

The issue does seem to become ethically murky to some when the class is "useless" and the workload is prohibitive for someone because of holding a job, having a kid, or something else along those lines, but you know what? Go to another school with a different type of program or take a less taxing course load so you have time. Do your own work, get help if you need it, but do your own work. I am having a lot of trouble thinking of any even remotely reasonable justification for plagiarism of this sort.

btw i think the idea that its totally ethical to burn this guy behind his back without saying something is totally bankrupt

Nabisco -- clarify your objection a bit? Is it that not everything is a hot stove (so to speak), or something more along the lines of contenderizer's tax cheat?

haha wtf max

"hey, uh, btw, I saw you breaking the rules and I'm going to turn you in, ok?"

that really helps everyone out, so at least he knows to start applying to other colleges?

you guys know that some people do in fact get away with this all the way up until they're in a Ph.D program right? And beyond?

in law school I would absolutely rat out anyone who was genuinely cheating (I'm being curved here). In college I don't know if I would have cared as much -- I mean obviously it's unethical and it should be the right thing to do to snitch, but something feels icky about it.

Max, what's the ethical rule that requires you to confront people about their wrongdoing? When does it apply to calling the police?

xpost - Charlie, I'm referring to your argument that getting caught is how people learn not to do wrong. That's not a position that anyone takes down to the line; it's tempered by lots of things. There are times when the "wrong" seems arguable enough that we're uncomfortable asserting our own opinion of it; there are times when something's wrong but seems too trifling for us to do things about; there are certain wrongs that we're sufficiently uninvolved in that most people would say we should just stay out of it. Nobody takes "we must help all wrong be exposed and punished" as a fixed rule, is all I mean.

P.S., I think the "talk about it" rule usually applies best when it's an issue you think can be resolved with the person without the need for an authority's involvement -- i.e., things that are 100% interpersonal, or things like disputes with your neighbors where a solution can be brokered without any intervention. This doesn't entirely fit that category.

Yeah, I wasn't arguing that "we must help all wrong be exposed and punished" -- merely that the basic process is to learn to not do something when that something has negative consequences. Everything else is much higher-level, and stems from that basic experience, I think.

(On the other hand the line between "minding one's own business" and cowardice can be very blurry, at best.)

The best is when the plagiarist's advisor is informed by a colleague that their advisee's dissertation is plagiarized and then gets mad at their fellow professor for pointing it out

I have hella thoughts but I'm on the train so u guys will have to wait.

The best is when the plagiarist's advisor is informed by a colleague that their advisee's dissertation is plagiarized and then gets mad at their fellow professor for pointing it out

WTF! The "permit nothing that reflects poorly on the organization (but as long as no one knows about it...)" principle at work.

in law school I would absolutely rat out anyone who was genuinely cheating (I'm being curved here).

― hurting

See, that seems sensible to me. Not tight-assed moralism, but simple pragmatism. Interfere only to the extent that it's immediately. And is it immoral not to warn him in advance if you do turn him in? Hell no! He knows full well the risk he's taking.

immediately necessary, that is

Both my parents are college profs and I know that they Google the shit out of stuff that gets turned in to gauge how much of it is the student's own work. It seems reasonable to expect this'll be the case with the OP's instructor as well and for that I'd say let the dude get caught and get on with life. Of course, if the instructor doesn't do this, it's their problem. I dunno, I guess I wouldn't snitch but I'd definitely be pissed if the fucker ended up with a better grade.

If you think about WHY cheating is immoral, it's partly because you're giving yourself an unfair and undeserved advantage over others (and thus also putting them at an unfair disadvantage). In my large state undergraduate college, it was hard to imagine how a plagiarizer in a larger English class was doing this to a very significant extent. In a curved law school class, by contrast, it's very clear how significant the unfair edge would be. Even if I knew for sure I was the #1 student in my class and I was completely sure the plagiarizer could not beat me, I would report.

It's a class. It's not your job or the prof's job to be Mr Popular, especially with someone who is breaking rules everyone agrees to follow. Not only would I rumble the guy, I'd probably be honest with him in the 'yes it's me, and if you even think of fucking with me over it, plaigiarism is the least of your stupidity problems.' That's not fucking someone over because it's presumptuous of a cheater to assume their back's covered by classmates. It never is.

Sometimes there's an informal curve even if you don't know about it (as a student). I've helped to grade projects in large classes, and we definitely evaluated the students relative to each other (as well as to what we thought each individual should be capable of doing, based on their background in the subject, etc).

Even if I knew for sure I was the #1 student in my class and I was completely sure the plagiarizer could not beat me, I would report.

― hurting

Can you post some of this guy's plagiarized responses?

the issue of confronting people with their wrongdoing is key here. If you could confront them and don't then you don't have a right to go behind their back and go to a higher power or whatever. There's grey area about when you can do it or not but this isn't in it. No ethical rule, but being upfront and honest and dealing with people as people rather than like the only thing about them is that they are cheaters/rule-violaters.

If you could confront them and don't then you don't have a right to go behind their back and go to a higher power or whatever

haha again wtf magical bullshit planet are you kids FROM

the meek shall be forever prevented from serving as an eyewitness!

If you could confront them and don't then you don't have a right to go behind their back and go to a higher power or whatever

Yeah, sorry to be on rule-patrol, but this is not a rule anyone follows to the end: if you see two dudes with guns robbing the house across the street, you do not go talk it out before calling 911.

this isn't like that, though.

utilitarians are always coming up with the weirdest shit
deontology's impossible to live by but at least it's straightforward

Leave the confronting to the person with the greater authority - the prof.

like i said there's grey area as to when dealing with stuff in person is no longer possible, that's a good reason why we have authority in the first place. but obviously you aim for not being meek and having to pull rank where possible because it works better to do things in person not through an institution/rule.

For the most part, I'm inclined to think that people who run off to tell the authorities when it isn't strictly required are assholes, busybodies, and bad neighbors. They shitify the world, increasing paranoia, resentment, isolation and authoritarianism. Trivial interferences just make life difficult for everybody, especially the authorities. This isn't the "code of the streets", it's simply live and let live: an attempt to create a mutually habitable world.

― Bored American Aerospace Defense Command (BORAD) (contenderizer), Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:16 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

owwwwned

tbomb

"This isn't like that" = then it's not a 100% solid rule, if it's sometimes like that and sometimes not. Sure, you could focus on the "could" in that sentence, but it's the "could" that makes is meaningless -- what's hidden in the "could?" When can you talk to them and when can't you? If there are times when each is true, it makes no sense to say "hey, the rule is that you have to talk to them."

Like I was saying, one difference is effects: if your neighbor is being too loud, then yeah, you talk to them before calling the police, because it's possible and likely a solution to be found (i.e., they turn it down). That's not entirely possibly here -- guy can stop cheating, but the harm as the university perceives it is still there and hasn't been fixed.

Also he presumably hasn't gotten a final grade yet, so "okay I'll stop from now on" doesn't rectify the problem the way "okay I'll turn the stereo down" does.

haha cankles you have absolutely no room to quote anything containing the terms "an attempt to create a mutually habitable world"

Tombot and nabisco 3rdid. Of course you can report wrongdoing without confronting the wrongdoer. The only situation in which you might be obligated to confront is one in which time is of the essence.

...And, I suppose, when personal relationships are involved (it's better to talk to your best friend about cheating than to rat him out).

lol

i cant really argue w/that

this dude is totally getting expelled before the end of the semester anyway whether Mordy snitches or not, Mordy prob not the only dork in class who knows how to use google even if the prof doesn't (doubtful)

Do what you will. If either (a) your personal morality (b) your interest in preserving an honest curve in the class or (c) your desire to fuck this guy over outweigh any other considerations, turn him in. You obviously give enough of a shit to start this thread.

Seriously. Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid. Or don't, and enjoy the holidays. Either way, dude's an asshole and isn't getting what he can out of the course.

wait a minute wtf kind of university course is still happening the week before xmas?

does it really not seem like sneaky shit to anyone else to turn him in anonymously?

does it not seem like even more sneaky bullshit to be plagiarizing all your coursework?

lol the trailer for valkyrie just came on the tv in here
"hey fuhrer dude, I gotta level with you. I know what you're up to and I'm going to kill you."

ya but that doesnt make it not sneaky bullshit to burn someone behind they back

btw all plagiarists are exactly like hitler

pretty :-/ @ arguments equating this to a) dudes robbing a house w/ guns and b) killing hitler

ok fine let's equate this to somebody pickpocketing you when there's no money in your wallet, not even any ID or credit cards, let's say, and they think they got away with it but you've noticed and you know it's them.

i never said it was an ethical rule of any percentage. i think rules that work totally irrespective of practical contingencies are bad rules, that's why deontology ends up noble and useless or tweaked and nuanced beyond recognition. fairer to accept that the severity/immediacy of a situation will dictate how you handle it. the ideal plan a is to resolve all conflicts face to face, the ideal of fraternity and all that, plan b is bring in the authority. just because people have different abilities to deal with each other doesn't mean they shouldn't be working off the same template. when going to authority to avoid being upfront is doing less than you know you could then yr sneaky

TAKE A STAND

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Enron_Logo.svg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/12/18/nyregion/18brokers_600.JPG

BLOW THAT WHISTLE

mordy give us hints abt who the prof is and someone on the thread will nail the cheater guy for lulz, your conscience is clean, civilization saved, win win win

haha tom i dont really know what your argument is now

i do not trust any of you sneaky ilx rule-clingers.

Do you go up to the person and say hey, busted, can I have my wallet back, there's nothing in it anyway, come on? Do you tell them hey, busted, I'm going to tell the cops, just wanted you to know ahead of time so you could start running! Or do you tell a policeman that that guy over there just pickpocketed me and he's likely to do it to someone else, you may want to stop him.

There is absolutely no duty to the perp.

honestly i would say "hey asshole thats my wallet" and probably not have much of a plan for a followup

Or you know who cares about the next guy he robs, there was nothing in my wallet and I don't feel like the hassle so fuck it.

What's wrong with killing Hitler?

haha max I fell for it, I tried to engage you in a debate. You win! I'm a geek who thinks about stuff!

why does james bond play golf with his arch enemies? he has no duty to be all charming with them, wtf are you playing at james bond just crack their supervillain heads open already

nah tom im being totally serious!!

lol, "the perp"

i mean look im not smart enough right now to really be able to figure it out, so im sort of just going on gut feeling--gut feeling it feels wrong to out someone like this without having a face-to-face conversation/confrontation

i mean none of the things in your thought experiment really match up to how i would react in that situation--i genuinely would say 'hey asshole' but im sort of confrontational, at least w/r/t stuff like this!! the thing is never really have a followup or plan

interesting thing about this thread is that if i were in mordy's position i probably wouldn't care. i don't know if that's something to be proud of.

i said perp because referring to a pickpocket or plagiarist as a "criminal" seems like it gives them too much credit

I don't think I've ever been in a class that's been cheating-free

now if u asked me why i value that kind of face/face confrontation... <shrug emoticon> im not really sure.

Man, fuck a perp.

everyone post ur cheating methods

http://www.google.com/help/calculator.html

if you use the search and replace tool to make all the periods and commas in an essay a huge sized font it will add like half a page

i guess i am arguing: sense of fair play/honour comes before ethical rules. maybe its an english thing, or maybe max agrees i can't tell, goodnight.

anyway i guess the deal is i agree w/ joe here: 1) i dont feel super-comfortable punishing ppl unilaterally w/o any kind of context 2) i REALLY dont feel comfortable placing adherence to a system of rules i only half-believe in anyway over my relationship w/ my fellow students

I haven't read the whole thread, but as a prof, I hope you turn him in to the prof. She'll take care of the rest. I mean yeah it's easy to google, but it's a pain to google everything and is that really what you're paying your profs for? Also there are sorts automated ways of catching this but not every university pays for these; mine doesn't, bleh.

there is a formula you can use in a TI-83 calculator to draw boobs

Question isn't whether or not you should confront, based on your own ethics, max, but whether or not it's fair/sensible to present the obligation to confront as some kind of universal moral principle.

i've been a TA and let me tell u this kind of shit is laughably easy to pick out. i think the dude is toast mordy, i wouldn't worry.

if you use the search and replace tool to make all the periods and commas in an essay a huge sized font it will add like half a page

― cool app

ppl who go around witnessing shit gonna get got

i think ogmor is otm... certain "postmodern" philosophers who i shall not name would say that the face-to-face relationship not on precedes ethical rules but is the very precondition of those rules. the 'sense of fair play and honor' that is the face-to-face, is, to me, i guess, the foundation and maybe the being of ethics. sry for being corny.

Question isn't whether or not you should confront, based on your own ethics, max, but whether or not it's fair/sensible to present the obligation to confront as some kind of universal moral principle.

oh fyi the thing i said above abt burning ppl being 'bankrupt' was mostly just me mouthing off cause johns tone in this thread was grating

^^ btw see me engaging genuinely & honestly w/ u here, i aint tryin to hide from having an intellectual convo

that was directed to tom

Not corny, max, just more philosophical than pragmatic. Face to face is difficult, risky, can cause much more trouble than good. There are situations in which it is probably necessary, and situations in which it should be avoided at all costs. In this particular case, I think it's a gray area best left up to individual discretion.

"hey fuhrer dude, I gotta level with you. I know what you're up to and I'm going to kill you."

heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

There's no reason to confront this person unless he's cheating off of you.

or unless he is hitler

I think the acknowledgement that knowing who's who is a foundation of ethics or any relationship is good but given the circumstances I think face-to-face confrontation is completely superfluous. there's no need for clarification here and the behavior has been described as ongoing, this isn't "hey don't do that again" territory anymore.

The only thing I can think of where that type of confrontation might wind up better for everyone is where Mordy says "dude, I can tell you're plagiarizing in your work, the prof or somebody else is likely to figure it out soon enough if they haven't already, so if I were you I'd own up and see if there's a way you can get an incomplete for this course instead of getting expelled."

why were you googling this guys stuff in the first place, mordy?

There's no reason to confront this person unless he's cheating off of you.

― ^likes black girls (HI DERE), Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:42 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

(just to be clear, I totally advocate turning dude in and I don't think you need to tell him beforehand; obvious cheaters suck and are doomed to failure eventually anyway so you might as well push him over the ledge now before it involves something like $50 million in charity funds)

just because this guy has thought of a genius, foolproof way of stiffing the system, you have to go and rat on him. seems like sour grapes to me.

(although my answer might be different if the prof is a powermad cock who can't teach his/her way out of a paper bag)

hey a fellow Levinasian! I thought I was the only one <333333. Since this guy's inevitably gonna get caught anyway (surely too blatant to escape forever), I'd say a little interjection of "dude you know you're gonna get caught right wtf is wrong with you" will result in the best consequences (oops I've turned from Levinas to Mill), not that any possible consequences are going to be "good".

"this guy is probly gonna get caught anyway" = just weak rationalising, chances are he won't get caught and what does it matter anyway, so he'll skip up an unjustified paygrade so what

live and let live and if he does get caught oh well

anyway have you dobbed him in yet?

Hey ya'all, update. (Sorry I couldn't update earlier, I was doing a reading at an event.)

Any, I spoke to the Professor. I had a long conversation with a friend about ethics and I just got really pissed about the Madoff thing (and the fact that he was on the board at my University, and this is supposed to be a really religious Jewish school and fuck all the unethical bullshit). So, as shitty as a reason it might be, I felt that maybe we should have some accountability in my University. Then my friend told me that this kid is both an Honors student and pre-med. So -- that sealed the deal for me. Fuck it.

The Professor, btw, told me that apparently there has been a pandemic of plagiarism in the University this year. He said they have found more plagiarism this year than any year in the past. So maybe Madoff was a good influence!

Also - to the questions above, I was googling the name because one of the sentences sounded really off to me when I read it. Just... really well formulated and oddly rigid for a fairly off-the-cuff and colloquial forum. Also, I am not including any quotes that were plagiarized, since the Professor and who knows who else will be googling this stuff. And I'd rather not it be known that I was discussing the ethics of snitching on an internet forum. Thanks for your help, all of you. Hopefully I'm not a total dick.

Also, the poll was 21-11. So I gotta do what ILX tells me.

can you link to this forum? you've got me all curious what this guy is poaching.

I can't. You need to have University access. Is there a way to googleproof this thread? I would post it in that case.

move it to 77

I'm ok with that if someone wants to move it.

good for you. you're not a total dick. not even a partial one.

one of the most disgusting savages in all the world imo

As a(n admittedly new) professor, the idea of an undergrad reporting another student's plagiarism without having any vested interest in the matter is almost mind-blowing to me. I even agree with J0hn D in general principle but still.

What is mind-boggling? That a student would be willing to betray another student? (My concern from earlier in the thread, and why nabisco's distinction was useful for me) Or that a student would care about plagiarism? (I don't know why that would be surprising.)

Wait, wtf? What obligation do you have to a guy who is getting over on YOU by cheating? He is giving you a giant middle finger. He is saying "Fuck you (and your fellow students), I am more important than you, hence I deserve a better grade than you for not doing the work myself." Why should you feel any ethical obligation to this person rather than to your non-cheating fellow students who are being harmed by his conduct?

Like I said above, in a situation that is not highly competitive, I might let it slide because the overall harm done in such a situation might be minimal. On the other hand, if cheating really is rampant, the overall harm is pretty great and something has to be done.

Don't snitch, it's none of your fucking business. If his plagiarism is as obvious as you say, then the professor should eventually discover it himself. It's really not your place to tell on him and potentially ruin his academic career, get a life.

This is bullshit, by the way. Degrees shouldn't be given out to any asshole who can cut and paste, and he's not really earning his "academic career" by plagiarizing. I think it is someones business, on behalf of the program you are in, of academia, and for the sake of honesty. To say "get a life" is both unnecessarily rude and kind of misguided.

Also I agree that blatantly violating your school's honor code is already inviting the ruination of your own academic career and if the precipitating event is someone snitching, that's just incidental.

I turned in someone for cheating off of me during a test when I was an undergrad, mostly cause I didn't know the person and didn't want to seem like I was in on it. I waited until after the class and told the TA who pretty much knew what was up anyway.

I also think that someone who's studying for pre-med should be held to a pretty fucking high standard, frankly, undergrad or no.

I agree with most of you and I wasn't saying that anyone has any obligation to protect a cheater. (I voted in favour of snitching FWIW.) I just found it surprising. I think most students would just "let it slide", the way most people would let it slide if someone cheated on their taxes. (A case where someone is cheating off you and highly competitive situations would count as situations where someone has "a vested interest.") When I was in undergrad, I would have been mortified by the thought of plagiarizing myself but it would have also never occurred to me that it was my place to tell on someone else who plagiarized (or e.g. had his girlfriend write his assignment for him). (Actually, the fact that this guy plagiarized everything does change things a little.)

I wasn't saying Mordy's in the wrong, though. He's in the right, really!

Oh yeah. If it was minor paraphrasing, or even if he bought a paper, I wouldn't have done a thing. It's the egregiousness that made it into a dilemma. I can't put the quotes up at the moment, but this was serious lifting. Just copy/pasting of academic articles.

If you don't want to make this a nightmare for yourself, send the teacher an anonymous email with the evidence. Don't tell the teacher or the dude it was you. Watch for the tearz.

Read upthread, he already talked to the prof.

serious lifting
http://www.irrigationfestival.com/images/stories/Events/strongman_640.jpg

When I was a kid, I told on a plagiarist in my English class. He was a straight A student that was terrified of having to write a creative story. So he based his fiction on a Piers Anthony novel that (of course) I had read too. I told on him and I know it probably wreaked some havoc on his reputation as a student, and I saw him head for the school bus in tears, maybe with the first B of his life. Can't even imagine how his parents reacted.

Now I'm a grown up and I wouldn't tell on him because I'm in charge of me; not him. If this plagiarism stays solely in the classroom, then I'd say it's totally victim-less and should just be ignored.

tombot otm how is this a thing?

do it or don't do it; all this fair warning bs is bs.

he did do it already?

tbh i dunno, i got bored reading all the 'on the one hand' shit upthread and posted anyway.

yeah well I TURNED YOU IN

In related news:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/19/mark.felt.obit/index.html

next time he contributes anything during class, you should become visibly enraged, stand with legs astride while thrusting a crooked finger in the direction of his face, and scream "J'ACCUSE" in the bloodiest howl you can muster.

then rally the crowd to build a bonfire at his feet, in the middle of the quadrangle.

that will teach him.

next time he contributes anything during class, you should become visibly enraged, stand with legs astride while thrusting a crooked finger in the direction of his face, and scream "J'ACCUSE" in the bloodiest howl you can muster.

rather,

I told on him and I know it probably wreaked some havoc on his reputation as a student, and I saw him head for the school bus in tears, maybe with the first B of his life. Can't even imagine how his parents reacted.

He might possibly actually be slightly better off for having gotten one B in his life.

He might have been better off still if his teacher hadn't given him a B for cheating.

hey guys--im running an internet contest and im pretty sure one of the entries is plagiarized from a newspaper article... should i turn the entrant over to the police?

go ahead

sorry max you need to poll

He was a straight A student that was terrified of having to write a creative story. So he based his fiction on a Piers Anthony novel that (of course) I had read too.

I did this in sixth grade but not with a Piers Anthony novel and not because I was terrified of fiction. I'm not actually sure why I did it, considering that I read and wrote a lot of fiction outside of school at the time - I think it's just because I thought ripping off the basic plot of my favorite novel was a way cooler idea than the ones I had that week. I didn't get caught but felt bad about it for years and never did it again. The end!

A friend of mine couldn't write poetry for 9th grade English, so she turned in "Angry Chair" by Alice In Chains. The teacher pushed her really hard to submit it to a national poetry competition.

ripping off the plot of another story counts as plagiarism?!?!?!?!?

depends how closely you rip it off, it's ambiguous but i think generally you know when you're over the line

I think you could definitely be sued for it. (maybe not successfully but original author would probably have a go.)

guys, good poets borrow, great poets steal. you can quote me directly on that

dudes... no way

I think you could definitely be sued for it. (maybe not successfully but original author would probably have a go.)

― Not Everyone Can Be Tupac (Susan), Friday, December 19, 2008 3:29 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes, you can be sued. here is the finding nemo example (plaintiff lost in this case) which gives a good idea of the criteria used in U.S. law: http://www.swanturton.com/ebulletins/archive/JKCnemo.aspx

max you have to at least change some details apart from names if you're going to steal a story ;)

Guys, the time frame given here was "as a kid" -- let's not get too impassioned, I'm guessing crying on the school bus home was part of a perfectly adequate life lesson about the importance of assigned fiction being original.

plus a real straight-A honors student would have known to use the 'shakespeare did it too' defense

A friend of mine couldn't write poetry for 9th grade English, so she turned in "Angry Chair" by Alice In Chains. The teacher pushed her really hard to submit it to a national poetry competition.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 19 December 2008 15:25 (39 minutes ago)

gold

That's appalling

If the dude aced your class with "Angry Chair"-level posts, please grant him amnesty, for it was not he who has cheated you...

thank you for that angry chair post

I stole something from the simpsons once for some bullshit assignment I had to do about the grapes of wrath

we had to write a song about it or something
the beginning of it was

old tom joad he aint what he used to be
aint what he used to be
aint what he used to be
he understood the socialist philosopy
thats...our...tom

or something, I forget

Well that's a very old song, not Simpsons-original

duh

here's the grapes... and here's the wrath!

xpost

I stole something from the simpsons

all I'm saying is I watched the simpsons and heard some character sing something like that and was like hey let me do that exact same thing

I'm just posting over here

On a personal level, cheating sucks. I was an chemical engineering major for a few years in undergrad but me and everyone else were all cheating the whole way through. At some point I didn't really feel like graduating into something where I was just wasting my time so I stopped.

now I...post here sometimes so uh

Sometimes (often with creative work) there's a pretty wide and blurry space between "cheating" and "being really derivative."

Sometimes there's just, like, not.

And I'd rather not it be known that I was discussing the ethics of snitching on an internet forum.

so you don't want anyone to snitch on you for snitching?

snitchitching