How Terrified Are You?

Meh. Whatever. Worst case, I'll just pack up and go to Asia.

Well, terrified is a strong term - probably around 4.

The basic elements for a global economy are still in existence: labour, skills, natural resources etc; it's a matter of confidence and getting systems working.

Might have left it a bit late to buy smallholding in country with geese, chickens, etc, and hidden cellar full of tinned beans. 'Meh whatever' seconded though.

More worried about global climate disaster - but que sera sera is the mantra there too.

Ooh... I want chickens. I'd never be terrified if I had chickens. Eggs + meat + a certain degree of constant, low-level amusement. The chickens might be terrified, though.

http://videodetective.com/photos/348/001461_29.jpg

http://videodetective.com/photos/348/001461_29.jpg

I was a lot more scared this time last year, when it was all kicking off, and it was my actual job that was toast in the meltdown. Now, it's a bit more "meh" because I've had some time to get used to it, I guess.

i'm a bit concerned because I need to get rid of my apartment and that business not looking good right now. otherwise not so much

More worried about global climate disaster - but que sera sera is the mantra there too.

This and the global economy will inter-relate more and more over time, probably quicker than predicted...Raising questions about how much Governments should intervene e.g. forcing companies to become more low carbon friendly, possibly rationing flights etc...

I worry about climate change for my kids' sake. Personally I'm always looking forward to a good old-fashioned apocalypse. It'll make a nice change from work.

Mind you, Lidl seemed very weirdly stocked yesterday. Hope this isn't a collapse of the Pound thing.

I'm worried that some of my pals will lose their jobs and be reduced to destitution, and then a mob of starving former bankers will storm my office and lynch my fellow public sector workers.

I'm planning to watch it on cable.

sometimes a 24 and then sometimes my usual state of mind which is 10.

2. Mild concern but, y'know, fuck it: party had to end some time and after the shit I've spent the past 20 years spouting I can hardly go "WAU WAU WAU WESTERN CAPITALISM", can I?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got my shoes to eat.

I recommend the fried sole...

I voted 1. Not to be all challopsy or anything, but it's like... I can't imagine myself or any of my friends or relatives starving to death, so everything else just seems kind of tangential. The Great Depression sucked, but people learned to deal with it; it's just what you do. If things do get really rough, hopefully it will just encourage people to be more generous, more helpful, more of a good old-fashioned community.

I guess I'm a little worried about my mom's medical bills, but she's got good insurance, so it's not like she's going to be plunged into penury or anything.

yeah i voted 3. more worried about other people

yeah the current "economic donturn" is microscopic beans compared to climate change

well im probably about a 0 on that issue tbh

i wish i was you.

6, as in, that's my best guess for the number of years before we view rats and roaches as food sources rather than pests.

If you don't own anything or have any money in the first place, you have nothing to lose!

I'm fine with the coming apocalypse as long as it still has the internet.

Once you start losing stuff, you can find yourself amazed at what can be lost.

Okay:
• internet
• husband

dog

those are the things I don't wan to lose.

I think it also helps that most of my hobbies are pretty cheap: reading (I like buyin' books, but libraries are cool too), surfing the internet (requires electricity and internet access, which will hopefully remain freely available in libraries and other places, and a computer, which I have and will try not to lose to hordes of marauding bandits), writing (again, computer + electricity; could also use pen and paper of course, though that would end up being a bit more expensive)

You can do a whole lot with nothing but a computer + electricity. Like, earn a living, even.

As far as what can be lost, I really wasn't kidding (much) about rats and roaches earlier. My guess is that hunger in America will make a big comeback before we're done here.

How long can you live off of beer?

the prospect of millions of people slipping from middle class to being poor is a bit terrifying. It's not like we do a great job supporting the lower class in the present state of things.

Also, it's kind of sad to think about friends and family facing the prospect of a "lost decade" where their aspirations and goals in life are unobtainable for a lengthy period of time.

Plus the government has no real answer to this present mess. The bailout didn't work, and 700 billion dollars could have done a lot of good in our society.

So maybe not terrifying, but pretty darn worrisome.

Also, it's kind of sad to think about friends and family facing the prospect of a "lost decade" where their aspirations and goals in life are unobtainable for a lengthy period of time.

If they are unwilling to change their aspirations and goals in the face of a changed situation, fuck 'em.

I'm more worried about the impendingness of it all than I am about any actual scenario - people will adapt and get used to stuff and scale back. Worse case scenario I've got friends with 20 acres and a well and a woodstove (and chickens!) near Lake Superior and it would give everyone an excuse to finally say fuck it and form a commune.

If they are unwilling to change their aspirations and goals in the face of a changed situation, fuck 'em.

I wonder if you would pass that test as easily as you think.

Perhaps we will all find out together.

Everyone will. What's the alternative? You *have* to.

Maybe we'll all learn to live with less, something our parents, grandparents and ancestors were able to do.

ILX commune.

Hmm.

Personally I don't have problems with change. I have a problem with the unknown.

xpost I wonder who are leader is and what drug he's gonna make us take. Ironic pills most probably

1. basically, what abbott said, as long as we have internet I don't fear the econapocolypse

will be dead before global climate disaster is meaningful. also a 1 on tht

ILX commune.

Hmm.

Everyone gets a tiny cubicle and a laptop, we have beers together at night, and no one ever does the dishes.

Bagsy being the dude who goes nuts and kills somebody in a fight over who ate the last slice of tofu.

I voted 5 - but I'm less worried than I was three months or so ago. We've hopefully got enough work on to keep our (very small and low-overhead) business going for the rest of the year, even if we get nothing else in at all. And I have a safety net of family nearby and enough savings to get by for a few months if I do lose my job. I'm more worried about other people.

ILX commune sounds just like my houe (except we have desktops).

will be dead before global climate disaster is meaningful

Global climate/biodiversity disaster is in progress and already meaningful for many many people!

in this commune we will produce bails upon bails of sardonic text. we will sell this bounty at liberal arts colleges and music festivals. we will have 3-5 sex partners and a complete ban on racially charged bottle openers.

1

I hope to profit from the misfortune of others.

yeh I know z s but still, meh

grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

plus also grant me the internet.

hahaha

Seems like a reasonable prayer request.

My guess is that hunger in America will make a big comeback before we're done here.

― Dear Tacos, how are you? I am fine. The weather is nice. I miss yo (Oilyrags), Sunday, February 8, 2009 8:00 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Actually everything I've been reading suggests that the biggest hurt we'll face will be long lines at emergency rooms and depression molasses gumming up the whole food/beverage/leisure industry. Food doesn't make up the same percentage of people's expenses as it did in the 30s.

This is oddly comforting at the moment as I happen to have insurance through my job, but I know way too many people who don't and I worry for their sake.

will be dead before global climate disaster is meaningful. also a 1 on tht

― FADCFTMFW (cozwn), Sunday, February 8, 2009 8:58 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

You're not gonna fry, but rising sea levels are probably gonna bring about massive shifts in immigration patterns in our lifetimes, and lots of meaningful social change comes with that.

Everyone gets a tiny cubicle and a laptop, we have beers together at night, and no one ever does the dishes.

― Bad Banana On Broadway (kenan), Sunday, February 8, 2009 8:58 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark

I'm down for this.

You know what, don't even worry about it - I'LL do the dishes. Somebody's gotta do it.

(I am just claiming this so I don't have to clean the toilets, btw)

As resident apocalypse worry guy I'll say that I voted 8 on instinct without reading the thread--I'm already broke and I already cut back as much as I feel I can, the prospect of cutting back more due to events out of my control is worrisome--but when I let myself out of my own head for a second I remember that social entropy is always inevitable and that it's silly to want it to be any different.

http://foodonthebrain.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/dirty-dishes.jpg

vs

http://www.penstalker.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/dirty_toilet.jpg

All you'd need for the toilet is a high-pressure, hot-water hose and some ammonia, probably.

Looks like you just called toilet duty!

I know better than to ever volunteer for chores!

The basic elements for a global economy are still in existence: labour, skills, natural resources etc; it's a matter of confidence and getting systems working.

This is both true and insufficient to understand the obstacles to recovery.

The major obstacle is that large numbers of contracts, debts and obligations were created during the bubble and many further obligations entered based on the assumption that all these would be honored. Other than the debts of people and institutions that have already entered bankruptcy, huge numbers of these contracts, debts and obligations are still legally enforceable, treated as assets, and almost impossible to fulfill under current conditions.

The overhanging catastrophe is that, as the bad debts are liquidated (and they run in the multi-trillions), it will suck so much money out of the system that even relatively prudent and solvent companies and individuals will also be bankrupted, as the companies cannot collect on their contracts and the individuals lose their jobs. It has the effect of a vicious circle and the fabric of the economy is weakened one thread at a time, until loses all coherence.

Even then, the labour, skills and natural resources you mentioned will still exist, it will be the money system that will have collapsed and will need to be knit back together in some coherent form. The amount of vision and leadership required in the face of that problem would beggar imagination. But who knows?

it will be the money system that will have collapsed

I recently watched a fairly lengthy video on fractional reserve banking. Some of it seemed half-baked and foolish (the odds of us going back onto the gold standard are ZERO, as it's a terrible idea). But it still impressed upon me the idea that our entire financial system depends on growth, and on banks overextending themselves -- lending out far, far more money than they have, far more than actually exists even -- on the presumption that growth will make up the difference. If it doesn't, a rather nasty feedback loop of economic contraction begins. (Sounds surprisingly like a Ponzi scheme, actually.)

So yeah, recessions and depressions are absolutely inevitable, and a direct consequence of the basic assumptions behind this system. But maybe more importantly, one begins to understand why most politicians are so hellbent on advancing economic growth at the expense of everything imaginable, including the environment. The moment that stops, and stalls out for a long time, things get very grim, very fast. Yet we know that we can't keep growing endlessly: so what happens then?

My thoughts on money go as such:

1. Money is money bcz everyone agrees it's money (gold standard or not – gold is valuable bcz everyone agrees it's valuable. That and it's good at conducting electricity and doesn't rust?).

2. Money is this completely imaginary thing in America.

3. The government's been treating it as this stuff that can just be pulled out of the air for-ev-er.
3a. So it makes sense in a way that American citizens would too?

4. Also Scrooge McDuck. He's great.

deep shit I know

Voted 4. I may have no real job prospects, a job, money or whatever but fuck it, i can afford a beer and i have some books i still haven't read, it could be a hell of a lot worse.

Don't worry - the perpetual motion/infinite free energy machine will surely appear within the next 10 years, we will finally be rid of that pesky "finite planet" problem, and then we can kick the feet up and drink incredible cocktails.

For my part I'm still waiting on the Singularity Institute to save the world

Basically, it's time to invest in a/some firearm(s)

For convenient suicide purposes?

That's surely what you're statistically most likely to do with them.

or murder your SO

Other things being equal, it's always a good idea to keep enough beans/rice/canned food/dried fruit on hand to get you through a month or two, plus bottled water for a couple weeks. But that's a habit that applies to natural disasters and so forth, not just apocalyptic paranoia.

and so forth = including losing your job!

Am I the only who gets a little excited about a meltdown actually occurring? I'm talking about the collapse of currency, of evictions, of looting. Entertainment would cease to exist in the face of pressure to survive. The benefits of a large family would become apparent. Pretty insane to think about.

Three germaine words for the post apocalypse: squat, scavenge, barter.

indentured servitude

puff exotic trees

^ three germane words

Sturm und drang

^ three German words

our entire financial system depends on growth, and on banks overextending themselves -- lending out far, far more money than they have, far more than actually exists even -- on the presumption that growth will make up the difference. If it doesn't, a rather nasty feedback loop of economic contraction begins. (Sounds surprisingly like a Ponzi scheme, actually.)

that's true up to a point, but the financial system depends on that for a reason -- it has historical legs. growth is something that happens, it comes from changes in technology, shifts in population (demographically and geographically), commoditization of resources, there are a lot of contributing factors. it's hardly a straightforward or guarantedd proposition, obviously. but it works more than it doesn't, and allowing the present to basically leverage the future is sort of by definition progressive economics, at least within reasonable bounds. (defining "reasonable" in this context is part of the challenge, obv.) so it's not exactly a ponzi scheme; it's more like an informed bet about the future. where a ponzi scheme entails uninformed bets about the future.

Am I the only who gets a little excited about a meltdown actually occurring?

definitely not -- i know a lot of people who fantasize about it in one way or another. right- and left-wing survivalists are both prone to it. (hello jim kunstler.) there's something lost-boys-ish about the prospect, everybody having to learn how to hoe again, or track deer or whatever. but the problem is that economic collapse historically is a lot more likely to give you, you know, HITLER (there i said it) than peter pan.

That may be the first non-Godwin mention of Hitler I've seen in a while, so don't sweat it. You're right. Political and economic vacuums are rarely if ever filled by the good will of men.

I still want chickens, though.

10

and i work a very secure public sector job and have a paid-off condo.

That could be why you're so worried. Like Abbott said -- if you don't really have anything, you already know how to live on nothing.

will be dead before global climate disaster is meaningful. also a 1 on tht

i honestly felt this way myself before last weekend

i work a very secure public sector job and have a paid-off condo.

― moonship journey to baja, 09 February 2009 07:17 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

voted 1, and conversely, i'm on a contract until august and the quarter share of a property i have isn't liquid.

can't really see that much changing for me short of falling ill, and i don't think that's linked to the economy. i'm a cheap enough date.

<q>Yet we know that we can't keep growing endlessly: so what happens then?</q>

Well hopefully some form of steady-state socialism, assuming there is anyone left to run it. I suppose it would have to be a global state as well.

Otherwise cross your fingers and hope for the emergence of a benevolent AI that will be able to transform us into a post-scarcity society at a stroke (a comforting thought, but I suppose unlikely).

In reality: get used to wearing bondage gear, riding a customised motorbike and looting as much petrol as you can.

ie

can't really see that much changing for me

5. am more terrified by ecopalypse (like maybe 6 and a half?)

http://www.saasta.fi/saasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/chinese-people.jpg

good to see you using that :)

It's just an image I pasted from another site. Apparently "I am extremely terrified of Chinese people" is some sort of Internet meme now, god knows why...

cankles probably

Too squinty. Always look like they're trying hard to spot something you are not trying to see.

Like the future.

Er, what?

Joeks.

Yeah, I got it, it was just a weird joke.

k

I wonder how many people are going to the doctor asking for anti-depressants. More than before? I think so.

Only if they still have health insurance.

hahaha Yeah. This is one of teh reasons I actually don't want to visit the doctor. *throws hands in air* "Not another one petrified by the economy." "No, dude, I just feel crappy lately most of my life."

Oh, nath. You need hugs, I can tell.

I voted 9. No job, borrowing from family members who are unemployed to eat. Need to go to the doctor badly, and all my clothing already has holes. Given how far to the left I consider myself politically, I am still not excited about the prospect of collapse. Others above have rightfully mentioned the nastiness that is to be expected. I doubt everyone is going to go out and buy Das Kapital and say "oh shit, we should have known".

What really freaks me out is that I was turned down for unemployment because I didn't make enough money at my last job. As much as this sucks and defies logic, I know I have at least some of the resources of my middle-class upbringing to rely on. Being single and childless helps too. I can't imagine what it must be like to receive that letter with kids and no prospect of even a crappy job, let alone a decent one.

"No, dude, I just feel crappy lately most of my life."

And you just switched from mac to pc? Co-incidence, I think not.

was going to vote 10 but having seen a flashmob dancing silently i realise another world is possible, phew

lol

that post made that whole shitty thread worthwhile imo

Once you lose the pants, the rest is small stuff.

http://www.freshenmeup.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/underwear-flash-mob.jpeg

Terrifying!

That's it. Channel that terror.

Melanin stimulus, please.

i'm so glad I'm not more successful, not so far to fall.

7

Ned plz not to get skin cancer.

I can't imagine myself or any of my friends or relatives starving to death, so everything else just seems kind of tangential.

I can imagine other people being a lot worse off and killing the people they blame, however.

and i work a very secure public sector job and have a paid-off condo.

― moonship journey to baja, Monday, 9 February 2009 07:17 (12 hours ago) Permalink

That could be why you're so worried. Like Abbott said -- if you don't really have anything, you already know how to live on nothing.

― Bad Banana On Broadway (kenan), Monday, 9 February 2009 07:22 (12 hours ago)

less condescending analysis is that having worked hard, i actually have something to lose in a global depression, whereas y'all slackers don't. but good work on spinning your lack of ambition into indie rock virtue.

Voted 6.

My wife and I are relatively debt free, work at secure jobs, have some savings, live in a somewhat economically diverse area, and travel pretty light - no mortgage, car payments, etc. As much as I am the resident eschatologist around here, I don't buy into any of the popular off-the-shelf hairshirts whether it's climate, economics, fascism, Thunderdome, or Bob Dobbs.

What I am worried about is how people and nation-states are going to handle to long, slow, interminable grind that's ahead. Random increase in crime and violence, off-the-charts increase in desperation and depression, feelings that the government won't be able to answer the phone much less create sound economic policy, increasing number of failed states and lawless zones.

My prediction for 2009... We'll see an increase in food prices along the lines of the spike in fuel prices last year.

Cheese prices are down according to some pizza guy.

Wasn't the price of meat meant to rocket at the end of last summer because of the cost of animal feed? Whatever happened?

The Illuminati decided to space things out a bit.

"Keep it chill in 2009."

That is my advice for everyone living in 2k9 CE

what terrifies me about the economy right now is
a) I'm a recent graduate from UGA and I haven't got a good job yet
b) The great depression lasted about 10 years in USA
c) Not even stimulus packages help apparently
d) hey we have the end of the world coming during the end of 2012 right? the Mayans predicted 'governments' clashing in our recent times.. they were right. thinks might not get better for a long time. at least 3 years

good work on spinning your lack of ambition into indie rock virtue.

sorry I was condescending.

less condescending analysis is that having worked hard, i actually have something to lose in a global depression, whereas y'all slackers don't. but good work on spinning your lack of ambition into indie rock virtue.

― moonship journey to baja, Monday, February 9, 2009 3:08 PM

says the non-condescending man at 3pm on a monday on an internet message board.

http://rdr.zazzle.com/img/imt-dzn/pd-235164378336920175/isz-m/tl-Don%27t+Poke+The+Aspie!.jpg

sorry sorry sorry

Too worried about the fact several entire towns are burnt to the ground, 100's of people are dead, and one of my closest friends is still defending his house from a fire, to really give a shit about the economy or 2012 or any other doom and gloom right now, tbh.

that's true up to a point, but the financial system depends on that for a reason -- it has historical legs.(...)
it works more than it doesn't, and allowing the present to basically leverage the future is sort of by definition progressive economics, at least within reasonable bounds. (defining "reasonable" in this context is part of the challenge, obv.)

Oh, definitely. And I think "reasonable" is exactly the key word here: allowing banks to lend out at a high reserve ratio gives the system liquidity, and its capacity for rapid growth. But it also means that when the system falls apart, it's that much more violent a collapse.

And yes, the paradigm of growth has always been viable and dependable. I wonder, though, whether we're on the brink of an unprecedented era, in which that paradigm is no longer sustainable without catastrophic damage to the planet. Many would say we're not there yet, and they're probably right, but I can't see how that time won't eventually come. I'm no economist, but I'd like to learn more about alternative models for a viable economic system in which growth is possible, but not as imperative as it is under our current system.

n

Obama's talking about this right now...

less condescending analysis is that having worked hard, i actually have something to lose in a global depression, whereas y'all slackers don't. but good work on spinning your lack of ambition into indie rock virtue.

Dude, we ALL have something to lose. I'm listening to my husband (literal translation): "And tomorrow the birds can fall from the sky and the world stops. This is life, Nathalie, it can always go wrong for everyone. So STFU and quit whining." Dude's right. And that's why I love him.

I'll never understand couples.

haha Me neither. :-)

well, i lost my job before christmas, i still haven't found one and i'm still alive. so i guess, not too much to be scared of!
i'm writing this from my bed, i have just watched gran torino in said bed all comfy and warm and i'm now getting up to make a nice english breakfast before heading out on a bike ride in the sun and i may even take some pictures.

welcome to my collapse-of-the-world-economy.

1

Meanwhile Ed Balls goes all the way up to 11

Ha, I voted 1 almost as a protest against Ed Balls.

I think Ed Balls might actually be right but I can't see what anyone at all has to gain from him saying it. Including Ed Balls himself.

Dude, we ALL have something to lose. I'm listening to my husband (literal translation): "And tomorrow the birds can fall from the sky and the world stops. This is life, Nathalie, it can always go wrong for everyone. So STFU and quit whining." Dude's right. And that's why I love him.

He has a very sensible attitude. My grandma used to say the same kind of thing. She also used to say "If 'ifs' and "ands" were pots and pans, they'd be no room for tinkers". Which means, in translation to these non-Victorian times, that there are so many permutations and possibilities to worry about that it's hardly worth worrying about them at all.

looks like grandma shops at platitude world

How's business at Platitude World these days?

Ah no, not a platitude, but genuine wisdom.

The bad grammar was my contribution however.

Prosperity is just around the corner, as Herbert Hoover famously said repeatedly over a period of several years.

7

General free-floating anxiety, nothing really specific, except that I'm a freelancer buying my own health insurance.

Actually, I am glad that Obama is not falling into the trap of trying to happy talk the economy off the ledge. It is amazing how often this advice is given to presidents and how often they try it out.

It's tangential to this poll, but my rage index is up to about 30. I'd really like to stab every GOP obstructionist cockfarmer in both houses a million times in the eye socket with a rusty screwdriver.

6.

I'm reasonably certain that my job is safe for the near- to medium-termm, though there's a unit-wide 'town hall' meeting i have to go to in about 10 minutes, so who knows. And my industry isn't 'countercyclical' but it's taken less of a hit than others.

Basically if it gets to the point where I'm in deep shit, then everyone has already gotten into really really deep shit.

aimless, you'd have to be a "moran" to downplay this crisis. otoh i shld stop reading the news. i am sure that all this crazy talking shit about what the future will bring is just putting a wet finger in the air and make guesses: we cant say with any certainty what the fuck will happen.

soylent green

not very terrified, but i'm in school studying for a job that is market-proof. then again, i AM concerned about how i'll pay off my lol hueg debt

well, i lost my job before christmas, i still haven't found one and i'm still alive. so i guess, not too much to be scared of!
i'm writing this from my bed, i have just watched gran torino in said bed all comfy and warm and i'm now getting up to make a nice english breakfast before heading out on a bike ride in the sun and i may even take some pictures.

welcome to my collapse-of-the-world-economy.

― not_goodwin, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 10:07 (12 hours ago) Bookmark

For being a smart arse and posting this, i was rewarded by having an old lady’s dog rip my jeans while trying to drag me from my bike and kill me.

i remember we had a recession in 2001 and it didn't change shit and lasted about 5 minutes, so everyone should stop being such a bunch of pussies. things'll be booming again next year, i reckon.

Hi dere, future home.
http://www.ocee-ok.org/Hooverville%20Picture2.jpg

2 here. I kind of have the same feeling as max arrrrgh up there. I've lived through three recessions now and only the first one had any effect on me. I'm in a pretty stable job in a smart company in an industry that isn't likely to be hit too hard by this. I also have very little to lose, owe no debts, and grew up poor. I'm in no particular hurry to revisit those days, but I can handle it.

Also really in love with the idea of, if there was a true dustbowl-type great D, pooling with friends and starting a commune on a farm in north Cali or somewhere.

Why is everyone's terror (or lack thereof) based only on what happens to themselves? I understand the urge to look out for no. 1 and everything, but life is pretty terrible when everything around you is falling apart.

Because then I would have to actually, possibly get The Phear. That and everyone I know is way fucking poor anyway.

I read a great quote by Seneca this morning:

What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.

OTM, pretty much. I'm just on the "lifes what you make it" tip these days. I'll never earn much more than I have for over 10 years now, I'll never own a home, everything I do own is old and falling apart, but I'm happy and healthy(ish) and alive and have a partner and family and in the end I have more than most people, because of this.

I quietly thank the skies most days that things arent worse, tbh.

I will very probably die of a cancer of some kind in future because of my lifestyle, too, so I might as well live life now.

Why is everyone's terror (or lack thereof) based only on what happens to themselves?

because sympathetic pity/concern vs. actual gut-wrenching survival terror.

i am actually kinda super-scared. i've lived through a couple recessions, yeah (one severe, one mild), but this seems of a different order of magnitude. there's an apocalyptic desperation in the air everywhere, as though what we're going through is just the first stage of something much bigger and potentially badder. and it came on so FAST, and the drop/destabilization has been so severe, and the responses are so panicky, and there's every reason to think that the reverberations will build and echo globally for at least a year, all the while feeding back and and and... geez, i dunno. i'm getting kinda old to entertain fantasies of huddling out the "rough years" on a commune somewhere with my buds. what i think about are increasingly crappy midlife employment prospects, plus intermittent sleeping under bridges & in cars.

here's hoping for more better than worse

lol my girlfriend just got let go. USA! USA!

Why is everyone's terror (or lack thereof) based only on what happens to themselves?

i don't think i'm articulate enough to answer this without coming off like a total dick, but it's a good point to make. i will self-examine and get back to you!

i'm getting kinda old to entertain fantasies of huddling out the "rough years" on a commune somewhere with my buds.

what does age have to do with it? i'm 35. i love the thought. even if it's not a farm, maybe a big ass 3 family sized house in the city, it has its appeal.

bernard snowy upthread said, "The Great Depression sucked, but people learned to deal with it; it's just what you do. If things do get really rough, hopefully it will just encourage people to be more generous, more helpful, more of a good old-fashioned community." I guess this is one thing i hope might happen. it's super optimistic, which isn't usually my style, but i tend to be more optimistic when the chips are down.

*takes dramatic slug of whiskey and wipes mouth*

Yeah I'd happily live somewhere where I could grow my own food and mend my own clothes, but I know it'd be damn hard work and around here theres the risk of bushfires and shit when you live out country.

I wonder if people with large and supportive extended families are less freaked out. We grew up lower-middle class, but my siblings have done well for themselves, and they may even own their houses outright (not sure). In a pinch, they would help me out for as long as it took to get me back on my feet. I would be edgier if I were an only child, I think.

Why is everyone's terror (or lack thereof) based only on what happens to themselves?

Maybe I should post this here.

I was indelicate, and I apologized on the thread for being so. FWIW, I wasn't trying to get all "I'm awesome because I'm poor" or anything. I was echoing what another poster said, interpreting moonship's fears a bit, and thinking of what my mom said to me the other day when I expressed a sweeping, vague sense of unease about the economy: "Well, you already know how to be poor!" She meant it a bit snotty, I think. But she's right. This does not make me extra extra proud of myself, but it goes go a certain length toward making me less terrified.

That is all.

― Bad Banana On Broadway (kenan), Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:47 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I understand now that the tone of my post upthread may have seemed a bit like, "Oh, you people with money and things... you are all silly people." That's not what I meant to sound like. I like money and things!

i vote we add "money" to the list of things ilx is terrible at talking about reasonably

Why is everyone's terror (or lack thereof) based only on what happens to themselves?

because we want jobs, for ourselves, there are 1,000,000x more applicants than job opening... we just want to survive, ffs

Man, tell me about it. Getting a web dev job off of Craigslist? You basically have to sit there and refresh the page all day, and send your resume inside of ten minutes. It's like trying to get Neil Diamond tickets or some shit.

thank you kenan, i appreciate the clarification

The next couple years will be very bad for the world economy, but your terror is best saved for genuinely terrifying things.

...such as http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g106/Discofrisbee/Luis.jpg

list thread: horses to avoid

^ that one imo

that horse is awesome in the "fear of god" sense of the word

how do you know hes not there for us to ride him to a better world

Come to think of it, I do not know that.

But I strongly suspect otherwise.

Meh. Whatever. Worst case, I'll just pack up and go to Asia.

keep reading this as Asda.

Had to google that. The supermarket?

No, in all seriousness, my bestest friend is in Bangkok, and a good number of my paychecks are coming from his media company lately, anyway. If it gets to the point where the militias in Montana start to look like they might have a useful purpose, I'll box up my computers and buy two tickets for me and Julia (caveat: I have not cleared this plan with her) and it's Hello, Thailand.

But that's pretty worst case. I can do my job from anywhere, so shit would have to be on fire for me not to want to do it right here.

there's every reason to think that the reverberations will build and echo globally for at least a year

You're being quite optimistic about this. This won't echo for a year, but for years to come. Not only economically but also politically. This is also not a recession but a depression. We're heading for 30s climate here, not the 80s nor the early 00s. That said, even in the 30s people survived. I think deep down I realize my overreaction is quite selfish and silly: we're (or rather I am) so used to this pampered life. If I stop 'n' think, I realize I could just as well be happy with less gadgets, less internet (hahahah), DVDs, books,... When I look around me (in my house) then I see all these things that my parents (and I) never had in the 70s/80s. We were still happy. Also, when someone says Obama is fantastic in his attitude in the way he doesn't gloss this over: how can you gloss this situation over? Bush was able to, the idiot that he is but it wasn't in full effect yet. (Shit scares me: if Obama doesn't succeed in even making it less bad, the Republicans are gonna win big time the next elections.) This has been a long time coming, it didn't come as a big surprise (unless you wore shields), but now this is everywhere. We can see it here on ILX, people suffering and looking for a job, in our circle of family and friends,...

Why is everyone's terror (or lack thereof) based only on what happens to themselves?

Uh, dude, SURVIVAL, duh. Deep down, especially in a bad situation, we care about ourselves first.

You can care about everyone/thing.

But Terror comes for yourself.

i remember we had a recession in 2001 and it didn't change shit and lasted about 5 minutes

I was unemployed for 18 months 2002-2003, so it lasted a bit longer for me. I don't think I'd end up in the same position now if I got laid off though. I guess if I lose my job then me & my wife can both go on the dole (they won't give her incapacity benefit at the moment cos I'm working).

State provision for the poor and unemployed, in Europe at least, is much greater than during the Great Depression and that alone should ensure it isn't as bad. That said I do worry about the long-term consequences for Britain's public service infrastructure, particularly when we end up with an even worse government in a couple of years time. No one has yet said where all this money is going to come from.

atheism adverts

Olympic souvenirs

Has the internet had any impact on people's feelings of panic (or otherwise)?

Absolutely! I mean, I guess I would be directly impacted by the internet whether commerce there looked good or bad, but it doesn't look bad. The whole country could fall into a giant smoking hole, and I'd still be building a website that sells face masks. "Especially good for hole-based smoke!"

But I guess that's maybe not what you meant.

i remember we had a recession in 2001 and it didn't change shit and lasted about 5 minutes

lol like all recessions are created equal! JC!

State provision for the poor and unemployed, in Europe at least, is much greater than during the Great Depression and that alone should ensure it isn't as bad. That said I do worry about the long-term consequences for Britain's public service infrastructure, particularly when we end up with an even worse government in a couple of years time. No one has yet said where all this money is going to come from.

― Maximo Park Ji-Sung (Matt DC), Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:02 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah, this is the worry; as in the last really big downturn in the mid-late 70s, there will have to be public sector cuts. can't go on borrowing forever.

Cuts are already being made.

http://standeyo.com/index1.html

#Maine's Bone-Numbing Minus-50 Sets State Record
#Storm Cuts Power to 400,000 Households in France
#Bank Run – video
#Thirsty Koala Survives Bushfire and Drinks 3 Bottles of Water - video

really, max arrrrgh and rockapds, I'd love you to be right but this econ crisis is WAY different.

capitalism, having eaten its own tail and realizing there is nothing left to eat, begins to starve

Why is everyone's terror (or lack thereof) based only on what happens to themselves?

Uh, dude, SURVIVAL, duh. Deep down, especially in a bad situation, we care about ourselves first.

Sure we do, but part of personal well being is having friends and family around you who aren't constantly suffering, is it not? I don't mean that financial well being is a requirement for happiness (in fact, what's that often cited study that found that money only correlates to happiness up to the point that basic food/shelter requirements are fulfilled?), but surely you're not going to be as happy if a good portion of your friends and family are in deep financial shit. And even if it's not your personal friends who are in a world of shit - what if it's people you don't know in Indiana, or another country, or hell, most of the Southern Hemisphere...if you're doing fine, personally, do you just say "let them eat cake"?

Then again, I was always the dude in Econ who was pointing out to rolling eyes that not everyone is motivated purely by personal gain and megabuck$$$, and that altruism has and will always play a role, so what do I know.

And I'm not trying to say that anyone here doesn't care about the rest of the world, just so I'm not misinterpreted. I just think that the level of concern I feel for myself going into this thing is influenced by how I think it will affect those around me as well. Then again, a lot of it does turn on how much emphasis you put on TERROR in the original question. If you're talking about visceral, gut wrenching terror, then until you actually lose your job and move in with a friend or family member, I suppose, you're not truly "terrified". I guess I'm reading it more broadly as "concern".

if it had said 'concerned' i'd probably vote 9/10.

Has the internet had any impact on people's feelings of panic (or otherwise)?

pretty sure that the internet has augmented the level of panic. fifteen years ago we had to wait till the next day or the evening news to know what had happened. now it is every minute you can check for news.

are people going to be made homeless by this next few years? given the decimating price of property?

starve, sure, but i can see myself doing it in a mansion the way things are going.

Aren't people already being made homeless? Are the banks going to end up with a whole load of house they can't do anything with?

And I mean houseS there not copies of The Sound of Chicago or something.

properties won't be kept empty, will they? nominal rents are fast becoming the order of the day over here. banks are in the same boat wrt mortgages.

(with the caveat that i no doubt have as poor a grasp of the details of the financial meltdown as i do of just about everything else except the termination of football manager employments)

I havn't heard anything about nominal rents in the UK.

no major drop in rents there yet? you don't think it's an inevitability when banks/landlords have the prospect of empty properties?

it's happening here already, but then we've built up so much in the past decade that it was always going to be an accelerated process compared to other economies.

I reprint without further comment one reaction from a well-known media personality. It begins with a quote from an economist:

"The credit-default swaps are alone worth about $60 trillion. This was a stupid product for it has so tangled the world there may be no way out. This product created the false illusion that you did not have to worry about the quality of the loan because it was insured. We have no way of covering this level of implosion. Add the unfunded entitlements and then the state and local debts who cannot print money to cover their shortfalls, and we are looking at a contraction of debt that is simply beyond all contemplation."

...and then goes into the following:

"Basically the SYSTEM is WRECKED. We will need 60 x £2 trillion BAILOUTS just to STABILISE the DAMAGE of what has HAPPENED.

"The WORLD ECONOMY is literally seconds away from TOTAL DISASTER (hence DEVIL BROWN'S deep furrows and Obama's lack of a smile since taking office).

"If the WORLD ECONOMY goes (and it could go within one hour) then the value of ALL assets will be WORTHLESS OVERNIGHT. The money in your pocket - your savings - goods - services - will mean NOTHING.

"We will be going into a BARTER system and possibly WORLD WAR III as countries seek to feed their populations. Remember we don't produce enough of anything in the UK to survive or even produce the power to heat and light our houses.

"We will have to go back into CAVES - life PREHISTORIC CAVEMAN STYLE.

"I blame DEVIL GORDON BROWN for the World Economic Crisis. His running of the FSA meant these evil CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS were allowed to take place - and they have destroyed the WORLD ECONOMY.

Forget trying to blame BANKERS or GREED- it is the SYSTEM that has BROKEN DOWN. The system allowed by BROKEN DOWN GORDON BROWN.

"He must RESIGN and take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for DESTROYING the WORLD and stand before FACE OF GOD.

"Issue this WARNING to EVERYONE you MEET in the STREET before it BURNS DOWN.

"STOCK UP ON DRY GOODS AT HOME
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY AMPLE CANISTERS OF GAS
GO SOLAR POWER - WIND UP RADIOS, LIGHTS
BUY GENERATORS TO BE EASILY FUELLED - TIP: GROW RAPESEED IN GARDEN

"Forget PRUDENTIAL INSURANCE. We need to INSURE the basics of our life - and that means
FOOD
LIGHT
HEAT
WATER

"If we take care of the FAB FOUR then we need not fear any CRISIS. We will be able to ride it out.

"By 2010 the bailouts will not WORK."

yah kinda scared now

prob might have to bump my vote up to a 6

Noel Edmonds? (xp)

Close but no turquoise cigar.

DJ Martian?

basically, i voted one just as a protest against that kind of thing. your major assets might turn out to be worthless, there's not gonna be much in the way of long term security for quite some time. you're not gonna leave much to your kids, they're probably gonna have to work at least as hard as you did, for at least as long.

food riots? mass homelessness? not gonna happen.

mass hopelessness morelike

BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT

Should I set up a tent in my living room?

You would think it stood a running chance of being DJ Martian, but no.

Think "lizards."

black, outs

WIND UP RADIOS

At least we'll be able to listen to 1FM while the shit goes down

We will have to go back into CAVES - life PREHISTORIC CAVEMAN STYLE.

As opposed to 20th Century funky bohemian cavemen? Anyway, we haven't had any caves since Thatcher sold them all off.

He was the first one I thought of! I just said Noel for laffs. (xxxp)

BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS
BUY CAMPING AND COOKING EQUIPMENT - SALE NOW ON AT ARGOS

"If we take care of the FAB FOUR then we need not fear any CRISIS. We will be able to ride it out.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3274911.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=2C48553CC6AAB74CBE2A2863C96A9020A55A1E4F32AD3138

Money can't buy you love, after all

$60 trillion = $10,000 for every man woman and child on the planet. Well I suppose you could get a tin shack in Africa for less than $500,000 so yeah it all averages out I reckon.

food riots are of course very common & increasingly so, but i guess you mean in the west? woah xposts

anyway, i voted a 7 because this is gonna suck.

If the WORLD ECONOMY goes (and it could go within one hour)

Am popping out for about an hour, let me know how things are when I get back.

Am popping out for about an hour, let me know how things are when I get back.

― cat anatomy expert (ledge), Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:09 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Still seems alright.

food riots are of course very common & increasingly so, but i guess you mean in the west?

blowin' minds

the infinity in u is the reality in u

60 tril in CDS != 60 tril in toxic debt

I voted about 6 I think. Que sera, sera. I hope I'm not going to lose my job (in a bank!), but other than that, I think it's all quite absurd - it's not like we're all going to di-OHNOWEAREALLGOINGTODIE! Can I change my vote?

I think I am just gonna post this here and there in this thread AS A REMINDER:

#Thirsty Koala Survives Bushfire and Drinks 3 Bottles of Water - video

60 trillion in CDs? The ILM massive has spent a lot more than I would have thought!

There's something so, uh, reassuring about apocalytic forecasts delivered on the internet with LOTS of RANDOM CAPITALIZATION of the SCARIEST bits of nothing but THE HONEST TRUTH, or so the writer swears.

But I can harken back just a couple of months ago when some pretty stolid economists were saying things like, "we could wake up Monday and there might not be an economy", if drastic measures were not taken at once. A debt implosion of this magnitude is more than just a big boon to mentalists.

Financially, the worst is over

The worst is over

The End of the Recession

From the first link: Published: July 31, 2002 in Knowledge@Wharton

From the 2nd link: Jason Wong says, "Even taking the view that global growth is going to be simply awful, the markets have priced that in. So the worst of the falls are over – unless things get a lot worse than the current outlook." That's nice.

From the 3rd link: Someone named cactus says, "this assumes the current recession behaves a bit like previous recessions."

I only voted a 4 but I did so as:

1 = things will be fine! soon!
and
10 = the world economy will actually stop functioning

so I consider that 4 pretty damn serious. 6+ is tent buying time.

Why It Pays to Ignore Financial News

understanding that on one level Graham was right and this is a crisis of confidence to a large degree, and that mass paranoid hysteria is going to only make things worse is a depressing and awful realization. it was leaked the other day that the big "scary news" told to the senators last fall that they kept alluding to but never actually stating was that in September there was a massive run on banks overnight and billions of dollars just evaporated or something, and that all it takes is hysterical panic to have that happen over and over again, wrecking the economy. still I'm somewhat hopeful although on days like today, when I am convinced I'm on the brink of getting fired from the job I've had for a month and staring into a dismal, lightless future, I feel less optimistic.

it was leaked the other day that the big "scary news" told to the senators last fall that they kept alluding to but never actually stating was that in September there was a massive run on banks overnight and billions of dollars just evaporated or something

!

Yeah, there was something about that going around the other day.

and that all it takes is hysterical panic to have that happen over and over again, wrecking the economy.

Over and over again...

We're all going to die again! It's the end of the world all over again! Why the hell did Deity allow humanity to create such am economic system, it's all His/Her fault!

A response to the above diatribe that I quoted/posted, not from me:

Mr Icke is PASSIONATE - but does he believe the TRUTH?

The WORLD ECONOMY CRISIS is a DISASTER of WORLD ALTERING PROPORTIONS but it is WRONG to say that it is the fault of GORMLESS GORDON - it started with MENACE MAGGIE and ROGUE RONNIE but they didn't start it - they were PATSIES in the hands of INDUSTRIAL BARONS

Those POWER PLAYERS with WORLD ALTERING WEALTH never forgave HALLMARK KING OF PRESIDENTS FDR and damned him as a CLASS TRAITOR and EVIL COMMUNIST for his NEW DEAL which drained their PRIVATE COFFERS. Their descendents live today and their ancestors are the ROBBER BARONS of the CATTLE 1890S who first thrust AMERICA to its KNEES

They act like FEUDAL MEDIEVAL LIEGES who think everyone else should still be SERFS. Their FATHERS and GRANDFATHERS cheerled for NAZI DEMON HITLER - it wasn't just the GERMAN INDUSTRIALISTS but all the powerful US/UK industrial BARONS and all the NEWSPAPER TYCOONS - read DAILY MAIL and TIMES for CONFIRMATION OF SUPPORT

YOU WANT TO LIVE?

ITEM! WORK OUT SERVICE THAT THE CHINESE NEED!

DESPITE CUTBACKS AND UNSEASONAL SNOWSTORMS THEY ARE THE COMING FORCE, THE COMMUNIST CONQUERORS - 1984 ORWELL'S RED VISION REALISED AT LAST

ITEM! HOT MUSIC FILM & ART TO COME IN BAD TIMES - REMEMBER THE ROARING TWENTIES???

1

It's all a bit overdone, isn't it?

Not to trivialise the plight of people who've lost their jobs, homes, healthcare etc., but to me that is more to do with the distribution of wealth and opportunity within societies than the current recessions.

Basically, we're talking about the richest countries in the world losing 1-3% of their GDP this year, then growing again next year.

A sense of perspective required perhaps?

Obv, the impact on the poorest people in the poorest nations is much, much more worrying, awful, tragic etc.

Also, prehistoric men didn't live in caves. Undermines his whole argument.

I have more or less stopped watching/reading the news. All these predictions don't mean much. We'll see once we get there. Take it day by day. What Jamie said. We don't have so much to worry about: we'll survive. But the poorest countries? :-(

Basically, we're talking about the richest countries in the world losing 1-3% of their GDP this year, then growing again next year.

We are? Where does the forecast of growth next year come from?

Enhanced productivity due to not allowing the Internet at work

We are? Where does the forecast of growth next year come from?

The Economist

Which in no way makes it reliable in the slightest.

whence the imperative to have a "perspective" on stuff that affects you directly? "oh well, lost my job; at least i haven't suffered a gun-barrel fistula." what good is it?

But the IMF agree:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2009/update/01/

They veer from being wildly optimistic to overly negative, though. They must have some weird model.

No, I think it's the 90-odd percent of the working population who aren't going to lose their job who should have a sense of perspective.

Of course for those affected it's going to be completely shit. And I hope that one outcome of all this is a strengthening of the welfare state, especially in the US. And there does seem to be a paradigm shift in attitudes to CRAZEE free-market liberalism going on, which is good.

But for people who aren't affected to bleat about it personally (ie terrified for themselves, not society) seems a bit off.

And as I said, it's the fundamental injustices of capitalism that are wrong - they are just spreading to more people.

things will be grottier for everyone; they'll be poorer because of the debt and the devaluation, and public sector services will be cut.

(i don't break character too often, but "bad shit has gone down" in my immediate fam, so this is where im coming from.)

And as I said, it's the fundamental injustices of capitalism that are wrong - they are just spreading to more people.

weeeell, ok. it's kind of the easiest argument in the book, though. 'if only we had a society which has never existed, this problem would never have come up.' obviously i agree that free-market idolatry will not be missed.

Sorry to hear that.

I dunno, it's the transmission mechanism that confuses me: if you are not going to lose your job, how exactly will you be poorer? Devaluation makes foreign hols more expensive, but no big deal, really, and it should also drive prices up, but in a context of disninflation, if not deflation, it isn't. (By the way, to the person saying there would be a huge spike in food prices this year - we already had that: global food prices rose by 30% in both 2007 and 2008; they are forecast to fall by 27% this year.)

The public finances are an issue, but not till 2011 or whatever when we have to start paying back some of the public debt. For now they are desparately trying to spend as much as they can on public services, bring forward programmes etc, etc. Hopefully in the UK and US, at least, that will come from higher taxes, not lower spending (although it will be both).

weeeell, ok. it's kind of the easiest argument in the book, though. 'if only we had a society which has never existed, this problem would never have come up.

I'm not saying that really. I'm just saying the worst social effects of this problem were already present when things were going well; this is an extension of already existing evils, and I would hope that them becoming more prominent would lead to better policy responses.In some ways it already has; it will be harder for the banks to repossess a home, long after the housing market has recovered and so on.

things will be grottier for everyone;

Really? IF you've still got your job aren't you much better off now than 6 months ago? Mortgages down, fuel costs down, even food prices seem to be have gone down (based on the completely unscientific weekly shop total at Sainsburys - and not including maple syrup which is now more expensive than wine), plus sales everywhere.

I get your point about the public sector of course and keeping your job is the reall unknown isn't it?

Or what Jamie said.

i'd like my employer to give me twice as much holiday, to encourage public spending

i'd like my employer to give me twice as much holidaymoney, to encourage public spending

I recommend Lyle's Maple Pouring Syrup. All the flavour and a fraction of the price!

I was thinking about the Honda workers. Would the fear of losing your job outweigh getting four months of paid leave?

That sounds like a win to me.

i will def scope out this Lyle's shit tho, and then cop it, thanks

Ned, here people will get 150 euros to boost purchasing. What about us, employers? Huh?

However, the outlook is highly uncertain, and the timing and pace of the recovery depend critically on strong policy actions.

No shit sherlock.

Really? IF you've still got your job aren't you much better off now than 6 months ago? Mortgages down, fuel costs down, even food prices seem to be have gone down (based on the completely unscientific weekly shop total at Sainsburys - and not including maple syrup which is now more expensive than wine), plus sales everywhere.

Not if you rent and don't drive. Not sure about that food prices thing either.

I'd like someone to zero out my mortgage and credit card debts, then I'll have lots of free cash to go about stimulating economies with! woo! actually, wouldn't that be cheaper than propping up the banks?

Really? IF you've still got your job aren't you much better off now than 6 months ago? Mortgages down

Yeah see my bank doesn't just go changing the amount of my mortgage when economic conditions change, good or bad.

actually, what I want is bankruptcy without any of the negative bits ( I'm with Homer on that one)

I don't know about much better off, but not much worse off either. There are people whose personal circumstances are going to be worse, and then there are many people for whom the possibility of that makes them feel extremely insecure, and then there is everyone else.

Everyone else should shut the fuck up and enjoy their lives, spending as much as they can possibly afford, as that will help everyone else.

So much of this is self-fulfilling DOOM! DOOOOOM! DOOOOOOM! stuff. That and a weird kind of sympathetic magic-style transference. "OMG, there's a (bad) recession, so I have to save money! Even though my position is totally secure and I'm really comfortably off and my retrenchment will seriously fuck up loads of other people's lives."

Gets on my tits, tbh

Yeah see my bank doesn't just go changing the amount of my mortgage when economic conditions change, good or bad.

Nor does mine, but I've got a fixed rate. Anyone with a tracker rate is saving 100s and 100s of pounds a month.

xp it does feel at times like we're the cartoon character running off the side of a tall building. we were fine until we looked down... however there are plenty of awnings on the way down, a pair of knickers acting as a parachute, and a big trampoline on the ground.

reasons to be optimistic drawn exclusively from over-extended flaky metaphors.

Yeah see my bank doesn't just go changing the amount of my mortgage when economic conditions change, good or bad.

Friend of mine (in the US mind you) re-negotiated her rate and now has to pay a couple of hundred dollars per month less than before.

we have saved a couple of hundred pounds a month. it's worth doing if you can.

actually, what I want is bankruptcy without any of the negative bits ( I'm with Homer on that one)

― tomofthenest, Friday, 13 February 2009 14:26 (26 minutes ago)

can someone fill me in on the bads bits of bankruptcy? Seems to be the option of choice for anybody that made lots of money over the past decade in ireland, but we probably have loads of clauses that make it softer on them than elsewhere (all assets transferred to children, allowed to keep family home etc)

I'm pretty sure food prices are going up here, but they've always been ridiculously high here tbh.

My stats on food prices are for commodity food prices - there's probably a big lag between that and shop prices, and there are lots of other factors in the shop price - wages, transport, storage, packaging etc. - so may well be no contradiciton there. You'd expect them to at least start coming down, though.

Bumper harvests pretty much everywhere last year, and then falling demand from REDEPRESSIONCESSIONCALAMITAPLYPSE!

(I subedit reports on all this stuff, that's where I got the numbers from)

xp to darragmac : yeah, the losing your family's home and still having to commit to paying off large chunks of debt bits.

ok, well it does seem softer here than elsewhere then.

that's it kids, we're moving to Ireland.

... if we could ever sell our house above the level of our secured debts that is...

well, the proviso offered above is starving in a mansion that you're allowed to keep but can't afford to heat.

Would that be with a pool?

i might spend 9-5 sourcing properties for families on welfare, but that's a request i've not heard yet.

So much of this is self-fulfilling DOOM! DOOOOOM! DOOOOOOM! stuff. That and a weird kind of sympathetic magic-style transference. "OMG, there's a (bad) recession, so I have to save money! Even though my position is totally secure and I'm really comfortably off and my retrenchment will seriously fuck up loads of other people's lives."

LOTTA assumptions being made here...

Most of all the assumption that saving money = stupid and irrational headless-chicken shit.

best to just burn it i think

Of course it isn't, and sorry if I sound grumpy. It's just that for a substantial section of the population, it is no more sensible now than it was last year or five year ago or whenever. That's the herd behaviour that annoys me.

Also, the paradox of thrift

Anyway, whereas I would feel guilty about my extravagant lifestyle* and give money to charity, now I feel guilty about my ascetic lifestyle and go to the shops/pub, as I figure it'll do more good there. Wahey!

* this is relative.

the kinda charity we can all get behind. bono won't need to throw a concert for me to sign up for that.

Haha I have been feeling that too. Although it helps that I've been better off over the last few months than I was at any point during the boom.

was just thinking today- most people under 35 here that keep their jobs (ok, major assumption but i still think the majority of graduates are pretty safe) are gonna enjoy the recession more than they ever did the celtic tiger, when nobody could afford a house, eating out, etc etc.

xpost

Also, I'm all over threads in late 2007/early 2008 saying EVERYTHING IS FINE WHAT HOUSE-PRICE CRASH? THERE WON@T BE A RECESSION etc. so ignore me.

Most of all the assumption that saving money = stupid and irrational headless-chicken shit.

Dude I know. It's always made me feel WEIRD as FUCK the past eight years being told the best way I can help out my economy is to drop mad bucks everywhere. But wtf if something fucks up and I haven't saved? And hasn't everyone always said, in personal finance, save save save? Pay yourself first, magic of compound interest etc etc etc all = save. And it keeps getting said bcz it is a damn good way to, at the very least, cover your own ass.

The government is not gonna issue me a 'save your ass' check if my personal economy goes in the shitter from spending.

Don't Americans save like 3,5 procent of their income? I think here (in Belgium) it's close to 20 procent.

abbott otm. the most 'patriotic' thing to do in a boom is to save your hard earned bucks instead of overpaying for everything- and as a bonus you get to pick everything you wanted up at auctions for next-nothing in three/four years. result.

The thing is, the economy itself rewards neither providence nor extravagance. It doesn't care. But providence is better for YOU.

That's the problem: savings ratios are higher in recessions and lower in the good times, but that, from both an indicidual AND a whole economy perspective, is the wrong way round.

Saving too little is part of what got us here, but saving more now is sure not going to help. IT'S TOO LATE!

Fortunately, the fact that the UK economy is built on debt and binge drinking is going to stand is in good stead, much better than those staid Germans with their export-led economy and high savings ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/13/eurozone-recession-germany

(Addendum to my earlier post: If you are a bank whose business and function and PURPOSE is to lend money, getting stingy with it is less than helpful. That's not being thrifty, it's refusing to do your damn job.)

"Why aren't you working today?"

"I'm scared."

saving money for a rainy day won't hurt the germans- the rainy day has arrived and people will spend now on perceived bargains.

Don't Americans save like 3,5 procent of their income? I think here (in Belgium) it's close to 20 procent.

UK household savings ratio: 1.8%

US and Belgian statistics bureaus harder to navigate ...

gas and food prices are certainly not down in california

No?

http://66.70.86.64/ChartServer/ch.gaschart?Country=Canada&Crude=f&Period=12&Areas=California,,&Unit=US%20$

Hmm, the scale's gone wrong on that for some reason, but it shows gas prices in California falling from a high of 4.58/gallon last September to 2.28/g now.

they were only at $4 for a very short time here, although it felt like an eternity. gas prices effect me less than food prices which certainly seem to be up, in my experience.

can someone fill me in on the bads bits of bankruptcy?

The burdens of bankruptcy fall mainly on creditors. In relatively normal times this is factored into what creditors expect and also in how they apportion credit. We have just gone through an anolamlous time, during which creditors made wildly bad assumptions about the creditworthiness of marginal borrowers and about the safety of bonds derived from their debts.

When the whole system is rife (<-- I haven't been able to use that word in ages) with bad debt then the process of debt defaulting (which is what bankruptcy is) can overwhelm the system, causing businesses to fail, creating more debt defaulting, causing more businesses to lay off workers or fail entirely, causing more debt defaulting, and so it goes. The bigger the bubble the more damage of this sort as it bursts. This seems to have been a mammoth bubble.

The reason why so much emphasis has been placed on "reviving credit" rather than on "halting debt defaulting" is that a resumption of lending and borrowing will create money that will flow into the system. By reflating the money supply, more money will be available for people or businesses to earn, which will allow them to continue to pay their debts.

It is like a circulatory system. When humans lose too much blood, their blood pressure drops like a rock and they go into shock. When too much debt is repudiated by debtors, the financial system and then the whole economy first suffer a sharp drop in activity and then they go into shock.

This is why the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers and AIG, Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, WaMu and Circuit City, GM, Chrysler, other big banks and businesses and hundreds of thousands of mortgage holders failing to pay up has crashed through the economy like a rogue elephant. As each new layoff and bankruptcy occurs now, it increases the stress on a system already stressed far beyond what it was designed for.

Actually, people saving money is the underlying mechanism that will eventually solve the problem in the long run, like bone marrow making new red blood cells. But before that can work, there needs to be a massive transfusion. That is what the "stimulus package" is all about. Just trying to ward off shock and stabilize the system.

Unfortunately, with massive layoffs still being announced almost daily, that stabilization hasn't occurred and the patient could still go comatose. It remains to be seen how well it all works. The damage is massive and still getting worse, and shows only a few signs of slowing down.

"anolamlous" <--- anomalous

The bigger the bubble the more damage of this sort as it bursts. This seems to have been a mammoth bubble.

I'm not even sure I'd call it a bubble, since what has become nakedly apparent is that mortgages are not what this is about -- if it's a bubble, it's a 30-year bubble of assumptions about the self-correcting power of unregulated markets, and it has not so much burst, leading to that startling popping sound that freaks everyone out for a couple of seconds/years, it's just kind of let everything go with a loud embarrassing fart.

My worry -- and it's not a small one -- is that we're providing stimulus to a system that no longer serves us. I mean, do we need the economy to operate on the terms it did before? I'm guessing no, and that means that no stimulus is going to work, because it's a dead horse. So what we have in store is adjustments in our basic assumptions about money that no one can really imagine yet.

You know, the more I think about this, the more "Meh whatever" sounds like dangerous denial. :(

I don't know. I kind of doubt we will come up with a whole new idea for how to run an economy. The process seems to be much more accretive than discontinuous. The whole consumer-debt culture is going to take a hard turn to a new direction, though, I think. The centrifugal force of that is just starting to be felt.

No, I agree, and that's what I mean. The consumer-debt culture was the final sum of the economy for so long that it became the engine of it. Ugliness ensues, Bergman film at 11.

I kind of doubt we will come up with a whole new idea for how to run an economy.

It won't be NEW, necessarily... maybe what I meant when I said "what we have in store is adjustments in our basic assumptions about money that no one can really imagine yet" is that we in America are likely to see a lot of guns waving around before we get desperate enough to see any good ideas.

"Middle class" my ass. Everybody is supposed to be middle class around here. We'll just see who freaks the fuck out, who jumps off a building, who shoots their family and then themself... the middle class will shrink, mark my words.

That always made me laugh. Stocj brokers killing themselves over the market. Dude, move to Brooklyn, eat salami for a while, what the hell is wrong with you?

Yeah I have to admit it's kinda funny reading all these articles that are like "it's unlikely we'll see anything approaching social unrest or revolt: that sort of thing isn't in the American character." Like, have you people ever read a history book?

(Addendum to my earlier post: If you are a bank whose business and function and PURPOSE is to lend money, getting stingy with it is less than helpful. That's not being thrifty, it's refusing to do your damn job.)

That's partly the reason why I was opposed to much of the bank bailout... There was no guarantee that the money would not be used to buy up the assets of other toxic banks instead of kick-starting credit again.

Wow, I was just coming here to post my gf's dad's o_O take on the economy (The world economy is actually fine - everyone is trying to make it sound bad so that the Democrats can push through spending and higher taxes), but some parts of his argument (the problem is that everyone is saving their money - everyone should go shopping) sound not far off from the last 8 hours of comments here!

haha, another component of his argument was "no one is losing their job except for people at newspapers".

Where does he work, exactly?

He is a well known musician/instrument maker in the hammer dulcimer "scene". He travels around the country playing background music at events and selling his hammer dulcimers.

I guess none of the other 3 people in the hammer dulcimer scene has lost his/her job yet.

Very nice. Please tell him I think he is an idiot.

Well, my gf already did that. They got into a huuuuuuge argument over the phone yesterday. I didn't overhear it myself, but I knew it was big because she couldn't manage to even discuss the fight without screaming at me as well!

Anyway, moral of the story is don't get your news exclusively from Rush Limbaugh.

Just idly drop a comment next time you're all around about how Rush probably thinks hammered dulcimers are some sort of European socialist gay instrument and that real men only play guitars.

No, only fags play music. Real men listen exclusively to talk radio.

multi-xpost:

Really? IF you've still got your job aren't you much better off now than 6 months ago? Mortgages down, fuel costs down, even food prices seem to be have gone down (based on the completely unscientific weekly shop total at Sainsburys - and not including maple syrup which is now more expensive than wine), plus sales everywhere.

Weird, just yesterday I came home annoying my husband in complete disbelief at the price of maple syrup (£5.06 in Sainsburys). And it's pancake day soon.......

He is a well known musician/instrument maker in the hammer dulcimer "scene". He travels around the country playing background music at events and selling his hammer dulcimers.

your life sounds like a wes anderson movie.

What this thread needs is more charts about maple syrup graphically demonstrating the startling rise...
http://images.quickblogcast.com/7/8/5/0/4/149913-140587/usvcanada_price1.gif

Taken from an endlessly interesting maple syrup blog which has this very VERY in-depth look at maple syrup prices and comes to this conclusion I predict average syrup prices in the U.S. to be about $36 per gallon in 2009 among the higher-paying packers. That translates to $3.16 per pound of syrup.(i.e. they're coming down.)

Now that's a terrifying graph.

This phrase:

"an endlessly interesting maple syrup blog"

just made me laugh like a hyena.

Basically, we're talking about the richest countries in the world losing 1-3% of their GDP this year, then growing again next year.

A sense of perspective required perhaps?

Obv, the impact on the poorest people in the poorest nations is much, much more worrying, awful, tragic etc.

Uh, Iceland's economy contracted by 10% this year, their government collapsed, and there have been many protests all around the world over unemployment rates.

And what is happening in Iceland now? People getting on with their lives I expect. Not heard any tales of people starving, looting, setting up militias. I still think some perspective is needed to counteract the Icke type crazyness which is creeping in.

Riots in Iceland, Latvia and Bulgaria are a Sign of Things to Come

Icelanders all but stormed their Parliament last night. It was the first session of the chamber after what might appear to be an unusually long Christmas break.

Ordinary islanders were determined to vent their fury at the way that the political class had allowed the country to slip towards bankruptcy. The building was splattered with paint and yoghurt, the crowd yelled and banged pans, fired rockets at the windows and lit a bonfire in front of the main door. Riot police moved in.

... and that was January 21, folks. Just to keep a sense of perspective here.

I'm more terrified than I was yesterday, after reading today that some people think my country (also my employer) is in danger of going bankrupt.

Call that a riot?

And I still stand by my point.

And what is happening in Iceland now? People getting on with their lives I expect. Not heard any tales of people starving, looting, setting up militias. I still think some perspective is needed to counteract the Icke type crazyness which is creeping in.

Well, they did bring down the government - you've got that to look forward to!

Iceland kind of at the extreme end of the scale, though. If GDP fell by 10% in a year in the UK, then things would get pretty ugly, but, it's not going too (touch wood, etc).

There were riots and protests all over the place (eg Morocco) last summer, mostly because of high food prices, and I don't doubt that there will be more strikes and protests as in France or at the Lindsey refinery. Also anti-incumbent swings anywhere that has elections this year, and possibly more serious repercussions in places that are politically unstable anyway. But, you know, still not terrified. At all.

Maybe I'm just REALLY BRAVE.

There's a huge difference between even real riots (which we have witnessed in the UK), strikes, and so on and the breakdown in society which some people seem to be suggesting. I am quite sure we will see more of this stuff this year but it's not like we haven't seen much worse in recent history. Society did not spontaneously combust even when we had power cuts and food shortages during the 3 day week.

I must admit I like the Icelandic riots - throwing food (camembert on one blog I read) one day and then turning up the next with hot chocolate and flowers for the police. How civilised.

Society did not spontaneously combust even when we had power cuts and food shortages during the 3 day week.

it depends on your expectations.

the 70s slump did have pretty far-reaching effects on british society, like thatcherism.

the 70s slump did have pretty far-reaching effects on british society, like thatcherism.

― ^^ one of enriques sincere posts (special guest stars mark bronson)

OTM.

Hmmm, but the long-term political effects of this look good, don't they? Even if the Tories get in, this *feels* like a shift to the left in the public mood.

ie in the short term, this is awful for the economy and for many people's lives, but it also seems like the death knell for neo-liberal economics.

Gross simplification, I know, but something like that.

but the nominal left has got nothing in the locker with which to replace same. what is the national wealth going to be based on, now that buying and selling each other houses is taken out of the equation?

haircuts

gambling

rock music

subediting

^ hahahahah

Mirthless laughter

i'm serious! in a world where england produces almost nothing itself yet english is the lingua franca, subediting is where it's at!

australia knows this.

I think it's going to go back to being based on buying and selling houses* pretty quickly, but I don't really see that as a left/right issue.

I was thinking more in terms of regulation of the banks and particularly international capital flows. Or just a mood in the air that private=good, state=bad has gone.

* The UK IS also the 7th-largest exporter of goods and services in the world, 11th biggest of just goods, so it's not just been based on that.

i'm serious! in a world where england produces almost nothing itself yet english is the lingua franca, subediting is where it's at! I hope you're right! I fear being outsourced, and judging by my spelling on this thread ...

xpost to Tracer: OK, if you can convince anyone else of that -- especially people with money -- I'll be hugely impressed.

but the nominal left has got nothing in the locker with which to replace same. what is the national wealth going to be based on, now that buying and selling each other houses is taken out of the equation?

This is OTM really. There would be an opportunity to force through change here if there was a politician in a position to do it. Brown would like to have been that person but he's too tarnished by the last ten years, Cameron is a step in a direction against the prevailing wind right now. I can't see any UK politician really seizing the agenda in the way Thatcher did, or in the different way Obama might over the next few years.

Cameron is a step in a direction against the prevailing wind right now

Only because he's devoted all his energies to being not-Brown, rather than being anything in himself. Anyone who votes for Cameron in the hope that he'll a) be "fairer" for society, b) fix anything whatsoever or c) make any less of a total cunt of the aforementioned anything whatsoever in the future is sorely deluded.

Sadly, I fear there are an awful lot of deluded people out there, which is why we're going to have a fucking Tory government at Westminster within the next two years.

Yeah that's what I was saying - I think Cameron is still thinking that the crisis can be solved from the right but he genuinely doesn't seem to have any idea what to do beyond "cut a load of shit".

Not that any of that is really an issue - the voters don't seem to have a huge appetite for a Tory government, they just want Labour not to be in power any more.

If Vince Cable were leader of the Lib Dems I'd vote for them. If I could vote.

Indeed, the Lib Dem's have missed a trick by not having him as leader. They'd never get enough seats
to form a governmen but could get enough to form a hung parliament and hold the balance of power. The wannabe
Cameron they have as leader just isn't cutting it.

I dunno, I can't see the former chief economist of Shell being the man to usher in our new economic paradigm.

Plus I voted Lib Dem once and I got Lynne Featherstone as my MP.

Never again!

Plus I voted Lib Dem once and I got Lynne Featherstone as my MP.

Never again!

― Jamie T Smith, Monday, February 16, 2009 4:48 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol me too!

she is a fucking moron, i can state from personal experience.

the voters don't seem to have a huge appetite for a Tory government, they just want Labour not to be in power any more

Yes, exactly -- which is roughly what happened up here with the SNP. Despite the polls suggesting support for/against independence is now about 50-50 (basically: I don't believe that), I'd wager that a huge number of SNP voters in 2007 would be genuinely horrified by the idea of an independent Scotland, and simply wanted something that wasn't Labour (remember that the Scottish LibDems were part of the consensus government and made dicks of themselves in all sorts of ways).

Of course, the SNP has actually acquitted itself surprisingly well (I voted for them, I'm pro-independence and even I've been surprised!), simply by getting on and fucking doing stuff. A lot of that stuff hasn't worked so well; some of it's backfired spectacularly. But, fundamentally, they've worked hard.

Somehow I just don't see Cameron's Tories doing anything of the sort. But I'm aware that I'm preaching to the choir here.

I should point out that I was asking about the downside of bankruptcy from the POV of the person declaring it, not the debtor, but meh.

Indentured slavery, no forgiveness of debt. Problem solved, and a damn fine example set to boot.

xxxxxxxxxposts to Aimless, sorry.

Society did not spontaneously combust even when we had power cuts and food shortages during the 3 day week.

it depends on your expectations.

the 70s slump did have pretty far-reaching effects on british society, like thatcherism.

All this is true but I wasn't arguing that this wouldn't happen. All I am arguing is that we are not going to see Mad Max. Which is why I am not terrified.

To save America, California must go

February 14, 2009 09:00:00 AM

The writer lives in Chipley.

By EUGENE MYERS

There is a better solution to this entire stimulus and bailout stuff than what we are hearing - put California up for auction. That's right, I said auction California to the highest bidder. We don't need California anyway. Why not get money instead of giving up money?

The Los Angeles Times just borrowed $250 million from some Mexican billionaire. If we made the offer, he might be willing to pony up a bit more for the whole state.

As all auction aficionados know, buyers take "as is, where is, like is." Therefore, there would be no need to mention California's $45 billion deficit that the "Schwarzanator" wants us to help pay off. In an auction, a bank letter of credit is also required, or certified funds. We all know how valuable a bank letter of credit is right now. After deducting for fat-cat bonuses, junkets, airplane rides and trips to the "kitten arcade," there isn't much left for the skinny cats. So I say, sell the Golden State ... for what else? Gold.

Let someone else worry about paying for the health care costs of 11 million illegal aliens, their children and extended family, except, of course, for those 11 "undocumented workers" found doing cemetery clean up work in Panama City this week. No more uncontrolled border crossings to worry about.

Now I hear the Californians are talking about letting about one-third of their prisoners go free because the prisons are overcrowded. Overcrowded? Are they kidding? No wonder their prisons are overcrowded, if every movie star and singer in Tinseltown uses the prisons for a weekend bed and breakfast. There's no doubt about it, some of the folks living in California are several oysters shy of a full bag.

Then, of course, there's San Francisco. What's the downside?

The D.C. politicians want to take from us - you and me - around 850 billion bucks and give it to themselves and "others." No one really knows who the "others" are. That's a good name for them, though. Isn't that the name of those wackos on that TV program, "Lost" on ABC? "Lost" is exactly what's going to happen to the money. The "others" are going to get the money and it will be "lost" to us. You had better start saving. What with fixing my boat motor, buying the wife that new lawn mower she wants and paying for that ticket because the window tint on my truck is too dark, I just don't have my share "immediately available."

Eight hundred and fifty billion has many zeros - seven if my math is correct. In other words, $850,000 million. It bears repeating slowly ... eight-hundred-and-fifty-thousand million dollars! Are there that many stars in the night sky or grains of sand on Panama City Beach? When I was a young'un, a "gazillion" was as high a number as you could get, and even then a "gazillion" didn't have that many zeros. Tell me, whose calculator goes that high? Maybe NASA's?

Auction California, it's the patriotic thing to do. Just for a laugh, we could throw in 100 Panama City Beach condominiums to attract more buyers - that is, if there are still any unsold condos left. Collectively, there are more of us than there are Californians. Together we can make it happen.

Now that I think about it, we could throw in D.C. with the deal. On second thought, maybe not, that would really be pushing it. Just too much manure. Even California's San Joaquin valley couldn't handle that much. We should make the plans quickly, though, before the next big quake drops California into the Pacific and we get nothing for it.

I keep thinking of the refrain in that song by the Eagles, "Hotel California":

Last thing I remember, I was running for the door. I had to find the passage back to the place I was before. "Relax," said the night man. "We are programmed to receive. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!"

"We are programmed to receive." Think about it. It's high time for an auction, my fellow Americans. Let's do it, but first I need to call my sister and tell her to pack.

"Who'll give a dollar?" said the auctioneer. "How about $850,000 million? Anyone?"

Plus I voted Lib Dem once and I got Lynne Featherstone as my MP.

Never again!

― Jamie T Smith, Monday, February 16, 2009 4:48 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol me too!

xposts we won't see mad max cos retro 80's cinemas will all be taken over by feral youths in skinny jeans.

Meanwhile, it's Police State time except it's not really...

OMG is that M?

Changed a lot since the days of "Pop Muzik"...

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Well shit, now I'm all anxious about knowing how terrified everyone else is. FUCK! I'll never sleep tonight.

Also, I like California. Lose Texas. They'll be thrilled! It'll take most of them years to stop beaming with outsized pride before they realize they're broke and ass-fucked 20 times over.

YES, I am for getting rid of Texas. for what evvvvvvvver reason

I am for getting rid of Texas on ly for the reason I mentioned. Abbott, your Texas hate does not take into account the fact that it's huge and diverse and there are some really nice people to be found there, even outside of (ugh) Austin.

:(

I've only been to the Fort Worth area and El Paso. I am pretty sure my hate is genetic. I should maybe stop being such a hater.

btw I AM TERRIFIED AS FUCK THANKS TO ELMO SCARING ME ON THE THREAD WHERE I ASKED PEOPLE TO SCARE ME.

wait I didn't mean that to be in all caps! Sorry, y'all.

You assholes can get your own awesome meteor panic footage then.

explain yrself, abbot

You have one hour to scare me!

motherfuckers be breakin my heart in this bitch

there there, Hoos
there there

if i promise not to break yr heart will u send cookies

no doubt

I'm sorry, Hoos. I really got so sick of Austin. It's like the Seattle "grunge" scene, except there aren't any bands around writing songs about how overblown it is. Or anyone stopping suburbia creeping in, even a little. Or anyone, say, building light rail. (Man, they killed that idea when I still lived there... how many times have they killed it since then?) It's a southern city, and it's only going to become a big southern city, and I left.

The writer lives in Chipley.

where the fuck is chipley

Can anyone let me know where that David Icke rant actually came from? I've been unsuccessfully trying to find it.

They actually have some pretty halfassed light rail about to begin service. Naturally it's placed to benefit only the exurb whiteys.

Gold price is ridiculously high! When people come to sell scrap gold and fucking complain, I just wanna SLAP their face. Srsly. A couple of years ago they would have gotten less than half ffs.

Can anyone let me know where that David Icke rant actually came from? I've been unsuccessfully trying to find it.

I don't know but I did find out that (according to The Sun) he is hanging out with Robbie Williams.

And also that Sun readers are discussing whether it is wrong to release Peter Sutcliffe. Turns out it would be wrong.

This thread makes me somewhat terrified, but round here we're hardly even seeing the supposed house price crash - prices bobbed down maybe 10% last year and haven't gone down any further since. Not saying it's not gonna hurt, just that I would really hate to have to predict either way (which is a shame when for the first time I'm in a position where I could just about afford a mortgage on a flat and various people are telling me I should get in now before that 10% dip disappears, and then on the other hand folks here are all "jesus fuck, we're all gonna die").

Then again, I was in Dublin at the weekend where we paid £30 for two burgers + one portion of chips + a can of coke + a half of lager, so, um, ouch.

(Friend of a friend went a little nuts last year and changed his myspace to have giant OBAMA = ANTICHRIST jpegs all over it and replaced all the content with a paste of Icke's rant about Obama, find out the TRUTH about global warming, etc. Great fun. Now all mention of Icke has been purged. I have no idea...)

PS regarding Irish jaunt I got up at five fucking a.m. this morning after Easyjet titted me about last night and I had to swap flights, so yeah, don't expect anything I'm posting to make sense

http://blogs.kpbs.org/images/uploads/Happy23.jpg

space cadet, how well Ireland fares will depend on a few factors that are easy to specify: 1) how much easy credit was extended to extremely poor credit risks by Irish lenders, and 2) how much money Irish banks and investors plunked into bonds that were backed by insanely bad loans made in other countries.

If neither of these problems exist to any great extent, then Ireland's problems will be smaller than, say, the USA's or Britain's. You'll just suffer a fairly stiff recession as world trade goes in the shitbin. Otherwise, you're just experiencing a delayed reaction that will catch up to you in a few more months.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

damn, 155 votes may be a record turnout.

Don't worry guys, I got it covered

http://i40.tinypic.com/8xk6xj.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2yp0j20.jpg

should be steel needles plunging toward eyeballs amirite

z_s i will be honest i did not really get why dudes were trippin balls to say they <3'd u before but ok with those graphs i <3 u dogg

An effective graph can give you a new perspective on things you thought you already understood.

<3

so which option was "doo doo brown" again?

xpost to self

That was the cheesiest thing I have ever EVER said, new record.

Renowned investor George Soros said on Friday the world financial system has effectively disintegrated, adding that there is yet no prospect of a near-term resolution to the crisis.

Soros said the turbulence is actually more severe than during the Great Depression, comparing the current situation to the demise of the Soviet Union.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/02/21-0

Renowned investor George Soros could smell an economy burning, and he knew it was our own.

space cadet, how well Ireland fares will depend on a few factors that are easy to specify: 1) how much easy credit was extended to extremely poor credit risks by Irish lenders, and 2) how much money Irish banks and investors plunked into bonds that were backed by insanely bad loans made in other countries.

If neither of these problems exist to any great extent, then Ireland's problems will be smaller than, say, the USA's or Britain's.

oh, lol n stuff.

1) all of it.
2) all of it.

a lotta sang-froid motherfuckers round here ...

How Terrified Are You?

http://i41.tinypic.com/2hg8epy.jpg

1 out of 10 because my apartment is pretty strong and Godzilla is in a different neighborhood.

jokes jokes

any yall see that cnn poll where 2/3rds of americans say they are "very scared" about the direction the nation is headed in

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/ap_fiscal_obama_mccain_090223_mn.jpg

Um, oh shit...
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/02/will-eastern-europe-trigger-financial.html

I am terrified.

^^^^ more coherent than rush limbaugh, sean hannity, etc. etc.

I am completely terrified.

repoll

good idea