Marriage: Classic or Dud?

My guy was married once too. His was not so good. I think we'll both continue being part of the 'domestic partner' movement.

although, at the other friends' wedding reception last week we SCANDALISED some poor woman by telling her that, if we were still together in 2014, we'd be getting married. she said "that's so selfish, if you love each other you should do it now. what if you have children before then?" at the risk of sounding like Ally, what the hell?

My parents still together, got married when my dad was 26, my mom 22. By the time my dad was the age I am now (31), I was born. I grew up thinking that it's a lurvly thing and still think it, and I'm terribly pleased whenever someone I know and count as a good friend -- my cousins Mark and George, Dan, Nicole and so forth -- find that right person and get married. I think nothing less of folks who are together who aren't married, not at all, but however socialized I've been made to the concept of marriage, it still seems right to me, somehow. :-)

That my own romantic life is a collection of fits and starts and mistakes on my part is my own burden to bear -- and I admit lately it's been eating at me a bit. :-/ Beating back feelings of jealousy at those who have found someone who they can chat with intelligently aobut things and snuggle up cozily to as well is sometimes a chore, thought thankfully it's not a constant situation or dwelling point. Yet I fear I will have these long stretches of my life to look back on now where...*taps fingers together*...where someone else and I could have been making each other happy for years then and years to come, but those years of the past will never be returned or replaced. Yet maybe I needed time to grow into a certain maturity? Or maybe I still need it? But that time is still irrecoverable.

There was someone in my past who I was thinking about asking to marry -- it's not someone who reads the boards, but no names given due to googling worries -- but whether it was my indecision or her changing thoughts or more besides, it was never asked and things ended. Who knows what might have happened?

Hell, I don't even want to be in a relationship right now, much less get married anytime soon. (which has no bearing on how my date went -- we both had a good time, and will be seeing more of each other very likely) Of course, I still want to have a network of very close acquaintances... whether it's "friend" close or "physical" close. This could change, of course.

As for MARRIAGE: C or D? ULTIMATE Classique if both are crraazeee for each other after all this time and are excited to settle down. ULTIMATE Dud if done because of parental or general societal pressures (i.e. oh shit all my friends are getting married, I wanna get married now)

Personally, I don't see the point. It was much easier to get the tax break then if you were married, and we did get a few presents (rub, all of them), but the divorce was lots of trouble. It didn't cost me anything because I didn't hire a solicitor. Bizarrely, she did, at great expense (2-3 grand, I believe), because I was (her version) being deliberately obstructive and unfair. After lots of acrimonious legal argument, I accepted a proposal of her solicitors. It involves me paying rather less than my pre-solicitor offer, and with a longer deadline. Don't ask me. How much of this we'd have gone through without the legal business of marriage I don't know.

I think how you feel about marriage depends on how you feel about 'a total solution to various problems of human life'. The problems marriage solves are to do with sex, loneliness, feelings of pointlessness, feelings of incompleteness, feelings that you might never achieve alone what you might achieve as a team.

How you feel about marriage as 'the total solution' to these problems depends on how pressing the problems themselves are. For instance, I'm highly effective working on my own. I also have a good sex life when I'm single. I suffer very little from loneliness and never feel that my life is pointless. For someone like me, thriving on volatility and enjoying insecurity, marriage actually doesn't offer very much. It tends to make visible a lot of practical things which are invisible when you live alone. It also cuts you off from the education you get from having affairs with interesting people. (In theory! In practise, we know that marriage and affairs go together like strawberries and cream...) I also regret enormously the tendency of marriage to take some of the most interesting people out of social circulation. You don't see them around any more. Their views, their faces, their conversation is missed.

Personally, I'm attracted to communal living. Like the rock tour I'll be doing next month with a bunch of young gay / experimental musicians on my label. Ten sleeping bags on the floor, that's the life for me!

I would have thought that you could do sarcasm better than that, Momus.

My take on marriage as a legal institution: historically it only had to do with assuring the transfer of property from one generation to the next, to a legally "legitimate" heir. (And those matters are not to be dismissed lightly; if an unmarried couple has a child and one of the parents walks away from the relationship or dies, what guarantee of support does that child have from that parent or his/her estate?)

The various other benefits people ascribe to marriage (apart from promarriage social engineering policies, such as favorable tax policies) are cultural expectations; if they actually exist in a given marriage it's because both parties are cooperating with each other. That cooperation is not bestowed upon a couple by the marriage ceremony.

(Note: I'm deeply skeptical of marriage, because my parents' marriage didn't have much of anything to make the institution look terribly attractive.)

so if getting married minimises the amount of hassle in my life I am all for it.

I incline towards the idea that if you are going to have children you're probably better off doing it with someone you intend living with at least until they're grown up, and it can't do any harm to affirm that publicly in front of people. I don't think getting married serves any real purpose if you don't intend having children.

I don't accept the notion that marriage automatically turns any relationship into a patriarchal nightmare. Unhealthy relationships are unhealthy relationships regardless. Gay and lesbian couples can now marry here in the Netherlands, and rightly so. Asked why he wanted to marry his partner I heard a gay man talk about having his long-term relationship acknowledged, officially recognised, amongst their families, friends and the community they lived in. For those excellent reasons, Classic. For reasons of 'obligation' or outside pressure, Dud.

This is a bit weak Stevo - what would your wife think. One of? One of?. Or have I got my head in the clouds re:marriage.

I just asked her Nick, she didn't have a problem, felt 'honoured' in fact. 'The best thing I've done in my life' doesn't really fit. We'd already lived together for 6 years after all, and didn't think we were suddenly about to enter 'marital bliss', or some state of utopia, because we'd made marriage vows.

Not sure what 'the best thing I've done in my life' actually is though, (good question for a thread perhaps?)

when I was 22, I found myself in a psychiatric clinic for four months. In Australia. Unmarried. WIth a tattoo of an ex-girlfriend's name onm y right shoulder.

I'm nto sure what to think of marriage.

I don't really want to raise the spectre of "polyamory"/non-monogamy however I can't separate it from my views on marriage and I couldn't resist pointing out to Archel that for me the above is not a problem - the reverse assumption is, ie that because you (I) have a partner/boyfriend we are therefore not available for others. So from this perspective, marriage or saying my boyfriend was my husband would likely make this worse. Also, why not just refer to them as your wife/husband if it's just for strategic reasons of wanting to spurn advances?

This knowledge may make it very hard for me to trust people I would consider doing the marriage/ joint morgage thing. (even though they are in the minority and want nothing more than an ego boost)

Ahem. Check your mail. ;-)

I am both attracted and repelled by the opulent spending/dressing up aspect of weddings, or 'ice sculpture factor'. It does seem insane and wasteful especially if you have already privately pledged to love each other for ever - I worry that having a public scripted ceremony detracts from the unique aspects of your relationship. But on the other hand, TIARAS!

Also, although I don't think people who have sex/try to have sex outside of marriage should burn in hell, I do think they should consider whether they really want to be married. Having your cake and eating it, anybody?

not being a tool of patriarchal oppression (any more).

Curses! I am being cruelly robbed of every last opportunity to oppress women. What does a patriarch have to do for an honest buck these days?

Maybe I just have strumpet written on my head.

It seems from the above that you see sex between the two people who are married to each other as integral to marriage, because you are questioning the desire (or appropriateness) of marriage for those who want to be married and have sex outside of the marriage. (This itself seems to be a misassumption anyway - what about those who would like to marry more than one person? What about people who want more than "just" sex outside of their marriage?).

as for marriage being a matter of personal choice, I would say "we" are far from that; I find marriage disturbingly prevalent and yes even patriarchally oppressive still. Just because people think something is just their personal choice, doesn't mean they are aware of factors influencing/contributing to that choice or how their choice affects other people. Just because something is personally "empowering" or good for one person or a group of people doesn't mean it's not a symptom of oppression, or oppressive itself.

But you are right about our 'choices' not being entirely free or without wider ramifications, yes.

Should I just buy the dress and wear it around? It is not really OBVIOUSLY a wedding gown.

As one might conclude from observing that the divorce rate in the USA is over 50%, marriage is not for everyone. As one might also conclude from the same statistic, marriage suits roughly half of couples fairly well. Not perfectly, but fairly well.

What is a dud is the overselling of marriage as a romantic ideal. There is very little romance in marriage, mainly because there is very little of it in life generally. Like happiness, romance is a fitful and ephemeral quality, immensely charming and bouyant when and where it occurs, but impossible to sustain on a steady basis.

A 'good' marriage is usually grounded in a good, reliable friendship, with sparks and flares of romance that come and go with enough regularity that both participants can look forward to their reccurence. This is something of a truism and not very exciting news.

The other truism that you've probably heard is that people change over the decades. Some shrink. Some grow. Some merely fade or become irrascible. If you don't put the effort in, your marriage will crumble. Sometimes it crumbles anyway. Stay prepared for either outcome. Change anything you must change in order to stay sane and amiable.

People tend to desire the opposite of what marriage requires. They want ease, predictablity, a minimum of pain. Instead, you must keep rising to the occassion. Sometimes you feel a fool for doing it over and over again. Just like child rearing, you rarely know when you are doing it right. I do it, because I choose to. The alternative isn't any bed of roses, either.

If that's dud, so are life, work and friendship.

It's odd, because the receptionist bought a Black & White formal dress last night for our office xmas party and then brought it to work today to show everyone. She put it on and ran up and down the hall saying, "I am Cinderella! I am Cinderella!" Later I heard more scampering up and down the hall, but it was a 5-year old - one of the agent's kids. I seriously couldn't tell the difference. But anyway, it was funny.

(I can't find it online)

and it is easy
to focus on other things
and let that part go.

I am learning this
the hard way I am afraid.
But a good lesson.

I find that the hardest things to ride out in marriage (well, so far anyway) are not the "hard times" or fights or whatever but the bouts of male ego-inflation.

granted, those are rare

Wow, just read Aimless's post for the first time. COMPLETELY OTM.

I guess he and I got married close to the same time. I have anniversary #23 coming up in May. So, Classic. (for me -- YMMV)

We just hit year six of being together, and wedding was about a year and a half ago.

Warning: downer post to follow.

This past week has been rough for me since two dear friends I've known for fifteen years, shortly before they were married, and whose place is only two blocks from mine, have in the space of three weeks had their marriage completely collapse -- divorce proceedings under way, one has fully moved out of the house, custody arrangements for their two children being hashed out. Watching all this from the sidelines, unable to do anything but provide sympathy while avoiding the vortex of horribleness this is conjuring up bigtime, with a huge circle of friends splitting down the middle as a result, has made for the hardest week I've been through in a long, long while. It doesn't make me think marriage is a dud at all, but I'd regarded their marriage as one of the strongest, most loving ones I'd known, and though it can't compare to the pain the principals are all going through, this fracturing has been like a punch to the stomach.

yeah, I can only imagine that. The only divorces I've known so far have been two pretty early ones - almost like slightly more complicated break-ups (no kids etc.)

I have pondered the idea of modern secular marriage quite a bit. There's no doubt that marriage is in some ways an inherently religious or at least communal concept where your duty is not just to yourselves but to God and/or society. I don't mean to say that a marriage can't work between two secular individualists but I imagine religion provides religious couples some motivation to stick out the bad times. Whenever I've google searched various marriage advice questions, most of the pages that come up are religious (or maybe these organizations just google bomb more effectively).

Oddly enough, another friend I was talking to about this yesterday, and whose own parents split when she was young, brought up the question of spiritual belief with regard to the couple I know -- however, both of them are in fact very thoughtful believers, though I'd be hesitant to pin down their specific beliefs and won't (it always struck me as a complex but regularly practiced amalgam).

It'll be our 11th anniversary in a fortnight, and we'd never have got here without some serious effort at times I think, but it hasn't been religion that's made us persevere.

My belief is that if you don't know yrself that well, then entering into a semi-permanent relationship where you need to know someone else is a poor notion. When I was in my 20s, I had a ton of stuff yet to figure out, about myself and the world. Only when I entered my early 30s, I think, did I realize that I wasn't perfect enough to be self-righteous with another person and that you don't have to keep a scorecard to make caring for someone else worthwhile.

Maybe I'm prematurely generalizing, but I'll bet that there's a lot of folks out there just like me. I think that people who aren't mature enough to be cynical about the institution of marriage should probably wait to marry, and those who are shouldn't be self-righteous enough to believe that this opinion is carved on stone tablets.

Ugh, that is a bummer. Sorry about your friends, Ned, and sorry that you have to be in the awkward and painful position of witnessing that all taking place. I think much of lybcrypt's last post is very much otm.

I've never been married, but am inclined second the wisdom in aimless' above post, anyhow.

Not to make the mistake of idealizing a cultural standpoint which advocates for arranged marriages; I'm sure that there is a significant litany of horror stories to be found within those models, but, I'm thinking that at least some of the over-romanticizing of marriage is tempered within such a construct?

I liked this thread a lot, very honest and revealing and with less egos being flown in each others faces than a lot of threads--with the exception of maybe one post by Momus. (Or... at least points of contention seemed to be handled with more grace on the whole?)

Anyway, I don't have much to say since I lack the personal experience of having been married. Much like Ned (see posts 5 years ago) my relationships have been fits, starts, and fuckups. Never been with anyone longer than six months at a stretch, so I will not definitively say classic or dud. I've been socialized about the same way as Ned, with the key difference being that my parents split nearly two years ago. And although it's possible that I don't know the entire story, much of what Aimless wrote seems to sum up quite articulately why that split after so many years. So as best as I'm capable of judging from this vantage point in life he's right otm.

And as said before, sorry about your pals Ned. I know how rough that is.

Mmm, I'd forgotten about that older post of mine. Written during a rather bleak moment, as I'd mentioned; nowadays I'm much more relaxed, occasional moment aside (last time being about...five months ago or so). Being more comfortable in solitude takes time to learn but can be appreciated (and I'm often surprised when people tell me they admire it, as has happened over the moons).

Yes, Ned. My most sincere sympathies. Stuff like that is very hard to deal with when you have no ability to directly affect the outcome, but must instead just try to mitigate the damages.

Choosing to bind yourself to another, to exclusion of others, is a REALLY hard thing. It is a wonder that I am witness to every day, and one that I will spend the rest of my life trying to perpetuate.

yeah both my siblings went thru unexpected (to everybody else) and messy divorces. things eventually settled down & the kids seem ok now but oh man the bitterness, it seems to linger

18 years now for us! aimless OTM on marriage overall, don't think I can add to that w/o jinxing myself.

Yeah, this thread is a rarity for me, if only because I usually make a point of reading every post on a thread, including revived ones, before posting...but upon further reading, it seems like the bulk of posts here are genuinely thoughtful ones.

I come from a family background where the marriage, omg "FAILED", and...personally I was in a relationship which, based on duration and overall flavor seemed to point towards tying the knot at some point...but things got messed up (and I blame myself entirely for that...) But, I think that marriage is a worthwhile thing, all in all, even if one doesn't wanna have kids. I think that it's a fairly natural course for human beings to take. People thrive better with mates (American sense of the word).

But really, I just wish that "Nizad" would have caught on!

Being more comfortable in solitude takes time to learn but can be appreciated (and I'm often surprised when people tell me they admire it, as has happened over the moons).

The grass always seeming to be greener type of situation, I would surmise?

Also, this from upthread, "finally internalizing the "got your back" stuff, which is real, to be trusted, and lovely..." was almost enough to get me weepy. I swear this has nothing to do with post-Valentine's Day Sunday!

I mean I guess that, the way that quote was articulated smacked not of a sense of neurotic dependency expressed in countless lugubrious love songs, but more of the best of genuine human relationships, which is why I found it particularly moving.

momus' upthread post = the "philosophical" musings of a worldweary 19-year old

Oops, didn't mean to dig up old downers, buddy. (xxxx?xpost)

not the "hard times" or fights or whatever but the bouts of male ego-inflation.

Could you please explain what you mean by "male ego-inflation"? I don't think I understand.

I've been living together with the man for ~3.5 years...getting married in May. And there's this myth floating around that no matter how long you've been together, the moment you get married, everything changes.

Thoughts on this from the engaged naïf, yours truly:

- None of the other "big landmark moments" in my life seemed to change anything, ie baptism & other church landmarks, turning 16, 18 and 21, graduating high school (mainly bcz it was a given).

- BUT some big life changes did change things such AS: getting a car & driver's license, living with roomies/alone for the first time, having to work to support myself while going to college, some other more personal landmarks. These didn't make my life worse (well, some did, but I adapt well to things), just different and usually for the better.

So is it more of the former of the latter if you're already basically married? We've discussed why we want to, what it means to us individually and together, how we've been maintaining our relationship and how we will in the future, and future goals/plans. I think if we have all these things in place, it shouldn't be like "holy shit what has happened to my life" a week later. I think!

This idea that "marriage changes everything" seems to be negative, hinting at some intermittent hell that you only know after the initiation.

I could say way more but basically I just want to know people's opinions on this phrases connotations and the amount of truth it imparts.

to use one cliche to define another, the 500 lb elephant in the room vis a vis "marriage changes everything" is child-rearing. having a kid definitely does that. otherwise a wedding and marriage license merely formalize your cohabitation and commitment to each other -- of course putting the latter down on paper makes it more serious in many cases. maybe having a joint checking account is a profound change too, I don't know.

Getting a joint checking account was kind of the best thing we ever did.

http://216.128.18.159/www/images/Allegacy_Joint_Checking_62006.jpg

Hmm, as stated above, I've never tied the knot, but anyhow, I'll throw my two cents in (you're getting two cliches here for the price of one, here, whoo!) and say that the biggest changes in my life have actually involved relocating to markedly different geographical locations. Which is not to say that I can refute any conventional wisdom of "moving won't change anything" (or is that even conventional wisdom or just something I picked up from "Some Kind of Wonderful" or some other rubbish film?)...but anyhow, moving to different places usually had simultaneously elating and depressing elements.

It's hard for me to say, in that respect. Obviously, one's mindstate when going through any major life change carries a big influence, but also, the influence of one's environment shouldn't be underestimated. But that's a whole other topic, so...

Oh, also, here's my post-redeemer. I can imagine that entering into a new relationship or a new phase of a relationship, such as formalizing it through marriage or shacking up can rival the stress-factor of breaking up.

Having kids has turned some of my friends who previously were average slobs like me into some kind of minor saints, at least as far as I've been able to determine.

(Apologies for pre-breeding shitty syntax!)

Haha we moved from Idaho to NM, a good 1,300 miles, knowing no one but John's mom (who moved in next door for a few months! ack!). And not knowing anyone for a good year...blah blah blah. We've done that. Results: we spent a lot more time in bed together, sighing and sobbing. But it didn't hurt anything; it made us a bit closer.

Do you guys anticipate moving anytime, whether it be sooner or later post-wedding?

For grad school. To Phoenix or Chicago, probably. Lord only knows when.

I grew up moving every 1-3 years so it seems natural to me, to be uprooted and know no one.

Ok.

Here's my crazy take on the situation.

I am a reasonably unhappy person posting to a message board, but among the things I value about myself, I have pretty decent powers of intuition. Please take that with all of the grains of salt that would imply.

That being said, I have a good feeling about your future. It sounds like you've won half the battle, or whatever. I gather that you guys have already gone through a number of potentially, or in fact rugged situations, and decided to stick it out! That's awesome.

My only caveat would pertain towards the scenario of re-locating to a more urban area, and suddenly finding yourselves in the midst of all manner of wild desirable single people, la-la!

But, again, I am just some random sap posting here, so please take that with the requisite hunks of salt. Big cities can be just as lonely as small town situations. That's basically all that I can think of...otherwise I have the impression that you guys have much of the difficult stuff already sorted out.

I'm just trying to think of lame devil's advocate situations, in response to your query...

Basically, you should rock out and get married!!!

Obviously, nothing is ever certain, and I know y'all are wise enough to have weighed all of the implications of that up to this point...

lol me giving advice in this dept. So many here are obviously much more qualified!

It's not that "marriage changes everything," Abbott. It's that the passage of time, increasing -- and shared -- responsibilities, children and new circumstances change everything (for better and worse, and I say this as someone married for 12 years and still very much in love with my wife).

Getting married definitely changed at least one thing for me: I felt (and feel) that I have a partner on whom I may truly count when the chips are down (even a little bit down). Conversely, I feel that I have an obligation to support my partner, even when it's inconvenient for me. Prior to getting married, I never felt that sense of obligation in a relationship. If we had a fight, then fuck it, she can sleep over at her friend's house and I don't really give a shit. Does she need me to take the cat to the vet at 3AM because the kitty is ill and she's out of town? Screw that. I have my sleep to think of! The flip side of this is that I'd never ask for special favors, because I really didn't have a right to do so.

Now that I'm married and this is very different, I sometimes wonder how I got on by myself for so long with nobody to call in at least a minor emergency. If I were do divorce, would I become a basket case?

NB: One great, great, great benefit of being married: You no longer have to live with psycho house/room-mates. This one is really a super-huge deal for me.

Thx dell for the cheer-ons & good vibes, and thanks Daniel! That totally makes sense. I've just heard SO MANY legends of "and I knew the first day of the honeymoon I woke up I had made the worst mistake of my life." (From the mom-in-law no less, when we told her we were getting hitched!) I think it's just some of the bad unconscious propaganda in society about good things, like that quitting cigarettes is impossible and painful and terrifying (it needn't be).

Of course everything changes. If you are not changing you are literally dead.

thx too libcrypt.

There are small things that change once you are married, legal things especially in community property states. You are responsible for each other's debts, any income you make is automatically the property of the other, you can make healthcare decisions for your spouse if they are incapable, you can't be excluded from visitation if your spouse is in the hospital, things like that. You may be struck occasionally with the thought that you are stuck, you can't just leave. But if you have been honest with each other before, and have thought out and shared your expectations of marriage, then the main change post-marriage is the depth of intimacy and trust and forgiveness you can afford each other.

...I think it's just some of the bad unconscious propaganda in society about good things, like that quitting cigarettes is impossible and painful and terrifying (it needn't be)

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Fuck that shit. Pay tribute to yourself.

But if you have been honest with each other before, and have thought out and shared your expectations of marriage, then the main change post-marriage is the depth of intimacy and trust and forgiveness you can afford each other.

beautifully put.

not the "hard times" or fights or whatever but the bouts of male ego-inflation.

Could you please explain what you mean by "male ego-inflation"? I don't think I understand.

-- Abbott, Sunday, February 17, 2008 6:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

Aw, I feel bad about even worrying you about it right now. I just mean those times when you get a case of the head swells (maybe it isn't especially male -- I don't know) and start to think about how you're in the prime of your life and there are all these women that could potentially be interested in you but you're tied down. Which is when I do that visualization of my self as an older Kevin Kline in a film about a pathetic affair with a younger woman.

in my experience bouts of male ego-inflation occur very frequently pre-marriage, too.

btw I've also found a joint checking account to be a really good thing for our marriage - it's a great trust builder and it reminds us of our common goals. There are some couples I wouldn't recommend it for, but as long as you're both somewhere in the range of responsible it's good.

xpost Yeah that's probably true. I just used to lack the self-confidence to get those bouts I think.

i dunno, i'm fucking crazy in love with my wife.

-- doomie, Wednesday, 22 May 2002 10:00 (5 years ago) Bookmark Link

^^^ this.

We hit 10 years of coupleness in August and 7 years of marriage in December.

Been (mostly) together for 3 1/2 years. The marriage talk has been escalating over the past few months.

..But I am not yet engaged or anyfing. It's becoming increasingly clear she's expecting it though.

Classic, until sexual drives diverge. Then rather dud.

Classic, until sexual drives diverge. Then rather dud.

That can be a problem, but a couple can overcome it. The passion that ignited the romance can't be perpetually sustained, but the counterweight is that being alone means that, for perhaps long periods, you're alone, lacking not only physical intimacy, but companionship, love and emotional intimacy, too. There's something to what Bruce Springsteen sang: "When you're alone, you're nothing but alone." The other challenge is being open without ruining what you've got. So if you have fantasies, fetishes or other interests -- from relatively tame ones to embarrassing ones -- that you need to fulfill (or at least explore) to be happy, you'd better either be ready to disclose them or live without them (I guess cheating is a third option, but that probably isn't your thought going into the marriage). Anyway, this post quickly turned into a poorly-written Savage Love column, but there it is.

the only reason i would get married is to have a party where most people would dress up and feel somewhat obligated to attend- like the reason most of my friends seem to get married.

so, basically like a funeral, is what you're saying...

actually the only real reasons I would get married would be for awesome health insurance, a load of money or maybe a visa.

This is the American way.

well, i already have a joint checking account and a house, so i don't need marriage for that.

starting to think i dont ever want to get married - i dont like to accomodate other people's schedules, lives, pasts, debts, etc. I could see myself in a LTR co-habitating, but maintain separate finances and friends and what not. does this mean i am horribly unromantic?

i don't equal marriage to romance. thinking of myself as someone's wife is the least romantic idea to me.

Get married when you realise that no one else will have you, you have let yourself go, and you realise that only one person knows you better than anyone else. I'd say about 33?

xxpost
Nah, that's in line with the definition of romantic. The other stuff is what sinks in post-romantic impulses...

ha, i almost said before that the 3 times I have been a bridesmaid were for people that I think gave up on looking and the timing was right and they weren't that interested in ever dating again.

i dont like to accomodate other people's schedules, lives, pasts, debts, etc. I could see myself in a LTR co-habitating, but maintain separate finances and friends and what not.

I understand what you're saying about accommodation but I think living together requires accommodating everything you just mentioned.

yeah you're right, forget the co-habitation thing ;)

I don't having "separate friends" has anything to do with marriage (unless there's something I don't know about, since I didn't actually get married). Some couples have a lot of friends in common, some don't.

Sorry Mandee, you should never have a boyfriend again.

;_;

today is my lollerversary

happy happy versary!

Ditto.

yay!

wot do you guys do to celebrate?

My wife and I had our first anniversary in August, but we just passed the 6th anniversary of we met and also V-day, so we just celebrated on the weekend - we had a schmancy meal and saw Diving Bell and the Butterfly.

I dunno Ive had a few longterm live in relationships and always managed to keep finances and such seperate for the most part. I'm a pretty fiercely independant person though and already own all my own chattels and whatnot, plus I dont want kids, so it hasn't really come up on my radar.

That said, for purely happy romance reasons, if I was gonna marry anyone it'd be my current guy - and I pretty much never think that about boyfriends.

Yeah, John was the first guy about whom I did not feel severely queasy when the idle imagining of a future marriage crossed my mind.

In fact, I felt good! And still do.

:D

I dont want kids

HIGH FIVE

Haha I knew there was one of several reasons I liked you Adam :)

ugh, been contemplating this and realizing that many of the reasons I want to be with someone are in the realm of things I should take care on my own, and to boot, possibly read as being hopelessly sexist

i.e., cannot "decorate" my living space to save my life; i can cook but am so lazy that food becomes last resort to salvage blood sugar/metabolic state, rather than occupying a modest celebratory occasion in life; and, furthermore, pretty much any other lifestyle improvements I can think of implementing are motivated more by desire to impress people of the opposite sex rather than being spontaneous urges from within myself...

So, I fear I am falling into stereotype of hapless bachelorhood with each encroaching heartbeat.

pretty much any other lifestyle improvements I can think of implementing are motivated more by desire to impress people of the opposite sex rather than being spontaneous urges from within myself

Improvement is improvement no matter what the motivation, esp. this one, which is innocuous at best IMO.

The problem with "spontaneous urges" is they're spontaneous. It's like never writing bcz you're waiting for "inspiration."

Yeah soz dell if you marry someone hoping they'll do up the front room and make an awesome tuna pasta bake for dinner, you may be a little disapointed.

I realised the other day that it doesn't matter that I'm the one doing all the cooking (I am a bit of a mum sometimes) - because it means I ALWAYS GET TO EAT EXACTLY WHAT I LIKE.

Haha, my mom made us all do that. "Mom, I'm hungry!"
"You know how to read. If you can read, you can cook. The cookbook's above the oven."

heh awesome :) My mum didnt care for cooking - I mean she fed us, but it was pretty uninspired, very english fishfingers n veg kind of fare. It was my dad who gave me my love of cooking, and he never cooked much. But when he did he was a total kitchen nazi, and explained all his cookin' rules, taught me how to make gravy, bbq seafood, peel prawns the right way, etc etc. Me and both my bros love cooking and are complete GET OUT OF MY KITCHEN nobs now.

Ha, yeah, it's not that so much, like I don't harbor "A Man Needs A Maid" fantasies, but more that I stumble when thinking of changing my life in big ways with the motivation being future mystery person in mind...it's like the old Charles Atlas comic book ads where dude transforms himself from 90 lb. weakling into hunk of dreamboat. Thinking of altering my life with the motivation of "seducing" someone into my life gives me pause. I'd rather they are cool with the warts and all part of me from the get-go?

Abbott, yr mom sounds wise in that respect. Probly Trayce's dad, as well, given her testimony!

If the worst of your "warts" is that yr pad doesn't look like the CB2 catalogue and your meals for one are lazy and passable, then that's pretty damn great. Nothing is more depressing than cooking an elaborate meal, for one, and doing dishes for ten.

The problem with "spontaneous urges" is they're spontaneous. It's like never writing bcz you're waiting for "inspiration."

-- Abbott, Tuesday, 19 February 2008 14:57 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

I have to be spontaneous three days a week.

In all fairness dell, I think it boils down to wanting to do this things. When I first moved out on my own I was on my own - and I had to work out how the fuck to cook lamb chops and not burn them, and whatever. I didn't fall to eating pizza and stuff because I couldn't afford to.

But I can understand why people would avoid cooking if they dont like it - I'm the same with cleaning. I'm still a 15 year old teenager with a chaotic room as far as house organisation goes :(

..and yet I wash my bf's socks and jocks.

Oh my god to live in a world where lamb costs less than pizaa...

They have pizza in Australia? ba-dum-pa

Lamb's gone up here because of the whole drought thing, but I think ~500g of lamb steaks ($7-8ish iirc) is cheaper than a pizza.

Koala tacos, people. AS I KEEP SAYING.

Growing pizzas in a drought is a hurdle surely not to be underestimated, though?

Pizzas don't grow on trees ffs, they're a root vegetable.

Koalas are the most fucking boring animals ever.

I saw a man on acid eat PLASTIC eucalyptus once.

the man was on acid, not me.

Feeling like you want to live with someone as long as you live: classic. Figuring out how to make a marriage work after you find out how hard it is: classic. Wanting another person to be as happy as life permits them to be, and helping them get there because you love them: k-classic.

Getting married because that's what you dreamed about as an adolescent and it's what think you are supposed to do: dud. Marrying someone who you overly idealized because you didn't want to see what you were in for: dud. Marrying because you can't take care of yourself: dud.

I saw a man on acid eat PLASTIC eucalyptus once.

The only way to go. The real thing is sorely disappointing.

i will get married one day and live in a castle but only one with a dishwasher + unicorns
so, classic
xposts

wait so if an animal is boring we can't eat it?

xxpost

Cannot argue with any of that. Sounds sound.

They sleep 23.5 hours a day and they're made of poison, so in this case yes.

Aimless otm. Marriage is something you do when you find a person you actually want to marry*, not when you're 12 and reading Dolly magazine.

* countries led by cockfarmer fucknut shiteating conservative dickwad leaders aside if you're gay

rrrobyn I have only once met an exciting cow, and it was of no effort of its own. It was only interesting because it had a human-implanted fistula so you could watch it ruminate in front of your very eyes.

stop these lols, you jerks. hurts to laugh

xp ^ beautiful paragraph

Why is the word "ruminate" so funny?

Because it means think AND eat.

I'm masticating cuds even as I post here.

i cannot imagine marrying, though i would love to. even if she was a cow.

a masticating cow

if ruminate && masticate then marry;

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/2867/azael.JPG

Eliminate the middleman: grab the cud with your hand.

when a cow vomits, how many of its stomachs empty?

Is this thread suddenly a metaphor for marriage?

i once saw it happen; the puke flew so far and wide (e.g.: gravy out of a wide-gauge fire hose) that i thought the poor beast's head had exploded

now it is

Given my tripartite stomach, I'm way ahead of y'all.

ruminate has nothing on fistula.

fistulating masticating bullocks

^ if I ever start a band this will be its name

I like where this thread is etc etc etc.

After all this thread-redirect, and the endless hard-workin' slightly-imperfect perfection that must be Aimless' marriage, I don't feel like saying 'Marriage and long-term non-marriage relationships are really fucking hard and sometimes it is difficult to find the inner strength to rise above one's own personal issues but once you're in it you're in it so you just have to tough it out because there's always tomorrow or next week or something' anymore. So yeah yay marriage and commitment and all that.

people think because it's about stability it's about not having to change, but that's wrong. stability comes from the willingness to change, together, following one another. you're gonna get hit with a thousand and one things, and some of them are going to be huge, and you want to know you're with someone who will bear up under it with you. that doesn't mean you have to always feel the same way they do, be afraid of the same things or ecstatic about the same things, but that you're willing to share some of the load either way. and you know they are too. it's an intensely close partnership. but within the closeness of it you have to both give the other person space and not make them feel neglected all at the same time. tricky. what do you really want in life? what does the other person really want in life? it's hard to know, and it changes. you have to pay attention to it.

i always say about marriage, i like it so much i've done it twice. the second time is a lot better.

the endless hard-workin' slightly-imperfect perfection that must be Aimless' marriage

I'm creeping up on 25 years of marriage now. We spent the first 15-20 years fixing all the issues that could be fixed. Making and remaking compromises and agreements. Teaching the other new tricks.

We finally hit the place where we were left with the unresolvable residue - the things we both know will never change and cannot be avoided, no matter what, and we must either put up with them or dissolve the marriage. No third way.

We both decided to stay married, in spite of knowing there will always be rough patches from these issues. It's just always going to be in the mix from here to the end. What we get that's good outweighs the frustration of always stubbing our toes on the same blasted stuff, endlessly.

Recognizing this has a calming effect.

I could see myself in a LTR co-habitating, but maintain separate finances and friends and what not.

It is possible to do both of these in a marriage too. We're coming up for seven years of marriage, nine years together, and still have separate social lives and separate bank accounts. We have shared friends and shared responsibilities as well though. tipsy and aimless are both pretty much OTM about how it works in reality - for us anyway. i never wanted or expected the fairytale girlie shit. i just met someone i wanted to spend the rest of my life working stuff through with and living life along with.

It is possible to do both of these in a marriage too. We're coming up for seven years of marriage, nine years together, and still have separate social lives and separate bank accounts. We have shared friends and shared responsibilities as well though.

^^^ all of this. You need to have separate social lives and money, otherwise you go crazy and/or divorce.

You know, when people talk about joint checking, I always assume they mean a joint checking account in addition to private ones. Do a lot of couples seriously have only joint checking? That sounds terrible.

We have a joint account but it's for transfers and rental payments. Everything else is separate.

All my ex-boss's accounts he shared with his wife. But then, he made 5x what she made, so it wasn't quite fair to split things up otherwise. Me and my wife have our separate accounts and a joint account. I make a little more than she does, so the division of discretionary and joint monies seems fair.

You know, when people talk about joint checking, I always assume they mean a joint checking account in addition to private ones. Do a lot of couples seriously have only joint checking? That sounds terrible.

My husband and I only have a joint checking and joint savings account. We budget so that we each have our own spending money etc. but it's all kept in the same account. It's never been a problem.

Only a joint account for us. Can't imagine it any other way (unless my wife isn't telling me something . . .).

what if you want to, like, buy the other person a present??

New technology alert is here. Credit cards are now and fab.

Right. Besides, the fact that we have only one account doesn't mean I can't buy a present. I just buy it with the intent to give it before the bill is delivered. Or I pay on a debit card, where we don't get monthly statements. Or I pay cash (tho that's frowned on now).

^^ Yeah, exactly.

I guess one might think that the moment the money goes into the joint account, it no longer belongs to one of the participants, hence a gift bought with joint money isn't really a gift at all. I think that's by and large incorrect, given the larger context of "giving" all one's income to both. Or, at least, it's only regifting.

Yeah, money goes back and forth so often (bills, groceries &c.) that all money is everyone's money anyway.

I wind up using my "own" money for a lot of joint expenses, such as groceries, far more than my wife does. However, she put $35,000+ into our home's downpayment and I put $0.00, so I do have some catching up to do.

wau

We don't own a home because we don't have the means to borrow $34027865934287569328 for a bedsit. So no deposit hassles there. We are saving like feck for what will one day become a deposit, though.

yeah, i guess my debit card & my credit card are both through the credit union i use, so it all shows up on the statements. also i don't get bills for the card, it's all online.

Get out to Kalgoorlie or similar for a year AA, the rosters for mine work are awesome, week on week off and couples can save stupid amounts of money. Its not SO bad, an ADVENTURE really!

We're having a baby soon so marriage is a constant question/expectation we just dont see it as a priority, jaded maybe, but marriage is for crazy in love kids, ergo still a krazy kid = C not a krazy kid = D.

We're not buying owt until the big crash anyway.

about a dozen things on this thread drive home that i am not cut out for marriage, or probably relationships at all when it comes down to it

lol cow vomit!!

xposts
also there was a thread somewhere where we discussed the fistula cows, i think! blargh! but awesome

i visited a farm this wkend

this is actually a marriage-related anedote about that though.
the farm is part of a park and is also where a v good friend of mine works. i was there with his wife (also v good friend) and her parents - we went for a long walk and finally came upon the sugar shack in the park, which is where my friend was working that day. he was driving the tractor to move snow, wood, etc. at the sight of this, his wife jumped up and down, clapped her hands, and said "that's my husband! yaaay!"
it was great and beautiful and made me think that yes of course marriage can be totally yaaay!

awww!!!

I dont understand this at all:
Do a lot of couples seriously have only joint checking? That sounds terrible.

-- Jordan, Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

whats so terrible? is it because bitches be spending?

Nah, just that it seems like there would be no privacy at all, and I've seen some couples who really get on each other for spending money on frivolous/personal things (like cds, food, clothes, etc.). Which makes sense if you have a tight household budget, I guess, but it feels too much like "keeping tabs" to me.

I don't like the keeping tabs aspect which is why we'll never give up our personal accounts. But we have been discussing opening a joint one for household expenses.

The monthly tallying of bills and receipts is maddening and I have to have a couple of drinks before I dive in. It makes me feel like we're roommates.

Also this can get difficult if you have different financial means.

eh. If youve got nothing to hide...., amirite?

Maybe it's good to have some (harmless) secrets?

What would be something (besides a gift) that you would buy and not tell your wife?

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/2672/imageuploadimageaw9.jpg

in CA its the law that everything gets split 50-50 in a divorce, so why bother separating stuff anyway - legally speaking anything the couple makes belongs to both of them. Seems simpler to just do everything together - less accounting.

Nah, just that it seems like there would be no privacy at all, and I've seen some couples who really get on each other for spending money on frivolous/personal things

I can't speak for anyone else but this doesn't really happen with me. If I blow a bunch of cash on records or something, then my wife feels entitled to spend a similar amount on something for herself (say, a pedicure). As long as both of us maintain a reasonable picture of our monthly budget its no problem. Of course, I don't go blowing money on some hugely expensive toy without discussing it with her first. But then that's because I'm not a jerk or an idiot.

"Legally speaking". What, do you have a lawyer living with you and yr wife?

What, do you have a lawyer living with you and yr wife?

Always.

requests of coitus will be issued through the appropriate channels

petition for cert denied

requests of coitus will be issued through the appropriate channels.

And only provided in exchange for sufficient and valuable consideration.

I'm sure this makes me sound like a totally unromantic/unsentimental asshole but marriage is a legal and economic arrangement just as much as it is an emotional one

and really I just take that "everything that's mine is yours/everything that's yours is mine" aspect of marriage fairly literally

maybe this is another indication that i'm getting way used to being single.

I agree with Shakey. But other arrangements, I guess, work for other couples. Second-marriages, in my experience, often have different types of arrangements, especially if one of the spouses has children from their prior marriage.

If your spouse gets on your back for spending money on frivolous/personal things, GET ONE (1) DIVORCE.

(this is a reaction to something several posts ago, but really, jesus, if you're being that keenly observed just get the fuck out)

^^^OTM

and really I just take that "everything that's mine is yours/everything that's yours is mine" aspect of marriage fairly literally

My wife contends that this approach is sexist, hence separate accounts.

uh, how is being equitable sexist again?

You first have to understand that marriage is a tool of the patriarchy.

'er indoors spends a slightly ridiculous amount of money on shoes. The only objection I have is being dragged into shoe shops.

If your spouse gets on your back for spending money on frivolous/personal things, GET ONE (1) DIVORCE.

haha, now i want to be all "well that's a little harsh", because i have friends with good marriages but tight budgets.

so basically y'all are saying that joint everything is the way to go, as long as neither spouse really cares how the other spends money?

I don't care what she spends money on, really, and she doesn't care what I spend money on either - provided both of us are cognizant of our basic budgetary needs (baby, rent, car payments, etc.)

however everybody is different - ESPECIALLY when it comes to money - so I make no blanket recommendations

Every married couple is different. Every single person is the same.

/asshole

like if she spent thousands of dollars on shoes or whatever and we didn't have enough money to pay the rent that month as a result, I would be pretty pissed

x-post

yeah i was gonna say, what if the frivolous thing was video poker? it'd make total sense to get on someone's back for GAMBLING the money away. what's the diff if you're wasting potentially budget-damaging amounts of money on, like, stuff? i can't wait until 20 years from now when people realize that "a collector's mentality" is an adverse medical condition, and there are PSAs saying "you think you need every 1979 electro white label ever made? you don't. we can help. 1-800-GET-HELP."

wow xposts

Personally, I feel that anyone who can't handle sharing a money account with another person is fiscally immature. I wouldn't want to be married to someone fiscally immature since money problems is one of a relationship's biggest stresses.

I think my parents (because I've never combined expenses w/ anyone so what do I know) have only in recent years had enough money that they could decide individually what frivolous things to spend it on. Before that it was always combined because they were barely making mortgage payments and keeping up with the home repairs/property tax/school clothes x 4 as the money came in.

If your spouse gets on your back for spending money on frivolous/personal things, GET ONE (1) DIVORCE.

This rule is overbroad and should not be upheld.

overbroad is the best typo ever

I plan to only remarry when I'm so well off that wifey can just sit around at home and hold cocktail parties on the veranda that start at one in the afternoon and our family dinners are frigid affairs held at an oversized table so as to enforce an acceptable distance between me and my ambitionless, emotionally deprived spawn

xxp True.

haha, now i want to be all "well that's a little harsh", because i have friends with good marriages but tight budgets.

so basically y'all are saying that joint everything is the way to go, as long as neither spouse really cares how the other spends money?

-- Jordan, Thursday, 21 February 2008 08:58 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Yeah, if you have a tight budget you need to be more careful, obviously. If you just want a CD and you can afford it and the other half is watching your bank account, it's time to go.

We have three joint accounts (one for pay, one for bills and one for savings), and everything else is separate. Day-to-day personal spending always comes out of separate accounts.

what's the diff if you're wasting potentially budget-damaging amounts of money on, like, stuff?

then, as Dan Perry says, yr immature and kinda a loser. learn to budget. Having a "discretionary funds" portion of your budget to provide for you and your partner to blow money on stuff is not that complicated a concept.

I plan to only remarry

i always wonder if i would divorce, if i'd marry a second time. i always want to say NO fucking way. but then i remind myself that i never want to divorce either.

xp Exactly.

If you're not prepared to work together to save, you probably shouldn't be married anyway.

In the same week I just had one of my best friends break off a relationship that seemed on the verge of marriage and then another friend suddenly broke off her engagement. It's starting to feel lonely being married. We're 28 and we have almost no married friends. This generation, man, geez.

just as well -- that way they won't all be getting divorces in eight years

marriage before 30s seems way too early to me

If marriage is a goal in yr life, then you really shouldn't be getting married.

hahaha

xpost hah. funny but very true.

see, when i was 25 i had a whole series of friends either get married or break off 5-6 year relationships (incl. myself).

tonight i ran into a guitarist i used to do jazz gigs with, he got divorced last year, can't be older than 25-26.

My wife and I were looking over our wedding photos the other day to see how many couples were still together. Of everybody, only 1/3 had split since we got married in 2001. However, of those under 35, more than 2/3 had split.

Youth of today! Get your shit together!

My cousin's friend married after being together for YEARS. They divorced a year later. Trust me, marriage is a whole different thing (compared to "being together.")

Hurting, it ain't this generation. It was the same before. People just stayed together and hated eachother. I see it with my grandparents. Fuck they still bicker continuously after decades together. I hope I never end up like that. I plan to remain happily married. If it turns sour permanently, it's time to get teh fuck out.

Marriage rules.

My wife and I have a joint checking account, but we each have a private stash. She has pocket money she earns off the books at a 'once in a while' second job at a print shop, which she uses to buy weed, cigarettes, thrift store junk, and occasional 'surprises' for me. My personal account is my Paypal card - eBay money is mine. It goes to records, books, magazne subscriptions, occasional 'surprise' gifts for her, and booze. Of course, if times are hard one month, we always sacrifice the fun a bit and tap into this play money to pay the bills. It's never really been an issue. Joint account is where we deposit our paychecks and pays for mortgage, bills, groceries, gas and vehicle upkeep, gardening supplies, movies, eating out, clothes, shit like that. Works out great. It ain't hard, people!

Matt from the Help Desk is getting married in June. He's 25. Rob the videoconferencing guy is getting married tomorrow. Also 25. Steve the comms guy turned 30 the other month and he's been married for a few years and what's more is a dad now too. Charlotte got married a week or two ago but she's in her mid-30s (been with her husband for a decade, got a four-year-old; they 'eloped' to Plymouth to do it, which I thought was great). My mate Matt got married in 2004, when he was 25. Weeksie is on his second marriage and will be 30 in October. Em and I have been together nearly 7 years. We have a house and a car together, and a BOB too. We keep talking about it. If we can't have a lavish 30s art deco wedding on Burr Island then we want a cheap, quick, register office type deal. But we also don't really want to get married either. We're not sure. Em says she's want to keep her surname either way. I'm 29 and I don't feel like an adult at all. On my birthday last week I had a sudden OH MY GOD I'M 29, BETTER GROW UP moment, and then it struck me that I have a pension, a mortgage, and haved been in the same job (sort of) for nearly six years, and that you don't get much more grown up than that unless you have kids. Adultescence, isn't it?

Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's FUCK THIS SHIT HOMIE

Weeksie, who like I say is on his second marriage, got married first time round in 2004, about six weeks before Matt. By Matt's wedding, Weeksie's marriage was over. His wife found out about the affair he'd been having with a (mutual) colleague on the honeymoon. Weeksie then had a complete nervous breakdown and ended up on anti-depressants and in counselling for several months; turns out he hadn't wanted to get married in the first place and had been kind of rollercoasted into it by bride and mother of bride. Didn't really realise he was having an affair, or something. Tempted to think that this is bullshit and he tried to not only have his own cake and eat it, but also to have several other cakes, too. So marriage didn't really work for him. That time. He's now with the third partner since the break-up, not including his adultery accomplice, and has got married again.

I'm in my late thirties. I have a long-term partner whom I live with, and we have a three year old son together. We're not married. I have no great desire to get married, except maybe at some point for tax reasons. I'm not against marriage, but on the other hand I don't really get it either. What extra thing does it provide that living together, loving each other, caring for each other, and having a child together doesn't provide? I guess I understand if you want a big ceremony publicly demonstrating your love and togetherness, that's not really my thing though.

x-post. I love Weeksie. He should be in a TV series called 'Weeksie's Women'.

Agreed, Zelda.

In my case, we couldn't not get married. What with visa requirements and that.

Getting married meant we had to plan a wedding, so there's that against it.

Talking of which (visa requirements and all that), does anyone in London know a decent public notary/high street solicitor who can notarise my passport ID page and not charge an arm and a leg for it? I need to get a notarised copy over to Canada so that Lena's wife visa can get on with being processed but I'm buggered if I'm going to pay £90 + VAT (or even £50 incl. VAT) for basically having one page photocopied and a stamp put on it. Mark S reckons that I should be able to walk into any high street solicitor and get it done for a fiver or a tenner at most so if anyone can confirm this or recommend someone decent to save me having to take a day off work/pound innumerable high streets to do so it would be much appreciated. Ta!

a typical marriage in ireland today costs more than my yearly wage, with expenses and overtime thrown in.

far fromt he only reason not to do it, but yeah, it's a good reason too

xpost to Dingbod - unfortunately I didn't have to do that, so I can't help. Is that a new requirement? All we had to do was send a load of bills with our names on to prove we were living together, and our marriage certificate. Actually thinking about it we might have had to send in our actual passports.

Thing is we're not yet living together so it's all at the stage where I have to prove that I am who Lena says I am, hence amongst other things I've had to send over copies of my last six months' worth of payslips. I just need to get a notarised copy of the passport ID page sent over and it should be plain and quick sailing from there.

(correction: last TWO months' worth of payslips)

Actually yeah I was getting mixed up with the Indefinite Leave To Remain visa. Although we were living together for a few months while we organised the wedding, but that was without a visa. We had to provide evidence of our relationship like letters to each other, photos of us together, and stuff like that.

My bf's started talking about setting a house-buying goal...at first he said "I want to buy a house" and I got all butthurt because it really didn't come across as inclusive but then he was all "wtf of course I mean with you, silly". And now I'm all :D :O :D :O about the whole idea! Its as big a committment as hitchment, to me.

Butthurt is such a g*r*a*t*e phrase.

Good luck to you guys Trayce. Youre brave to do that shit in OZ.

To me its worth getting married just so you never have say PARTNER. That shit is so offensive.

"Significant Other" isnt far behind either. I mean WTF?!?

"Inignificant Other", however, is cute.

I think I hate Significant Other more.

I always think if someone says they have a "partner" that they are gay but don't want to mention it for whatever reason. I'm always mystified why anyone would use that term otherwise.

Our 23rd anniversary is on Sunday, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say classic.

I'm always mystified why anyone would use that term otherwise.

Because "wife" and "husband" are culturally loaded beyond belief? Up to you whether you think that's significant or anything, but it's fer shur true.

but people dont use it instead of husband and wife, they use it instead of bf or gf, right? In any case it feels kind of soulless

Anecdotal as usual, but I have at least one married friend who uses "partner" to avoid cultural and religious baggage, which, since I was raised to believe I would someday be subject to a husband who would rule over me but love me "as Christ loved the Church", I find perfectly reasonable.

lover

(shudder)

Yeah I see your point Laurel, I wasn't raised in such circumstances so it just seems silly to me (plus of course I'm male so I'd have been doing the ruling in that scenario)

I kind of can't stand it when straight people use the term "partner" in their relationships when they are married. Hell, I don't like it when gay married people use the term "partner". I don't have an issue with it when used to describe long-term relationships that haven't gone through a marriage, though.

My name is HI DERE and I like taxonomy.

pardner

In Hebrew, the word for husband literally means "The One who Rapes Me"

thats hot

If marriage is a goal in yr life, then you really shouldn't be getting married.

-- libcrypt, Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:58 PM (Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:58 PM) Bookmark Link

Good post there, estela.

People in the UK use partner all the time and it was really confusing for me. I remember starting work and being really amazed by how many gay colleagues I had until i figured out that it just used much more frequently than in the US.

If you'd asked me before I got married I probably would have said being called someone's wife would have made me uncomfortable but I loven it now.

I got married at 28 and will celebrate our 2 yr anniversary this summer. We got married sonner than we might have done otherwise because it was easier for L to come to the US that way. That said, so far getting married was one of the best decisions I've ever made.

Come on, partner beats BF/GF since that sounds so juvenile. I'm kidding... sort of. I always giggle when I hear significant other. It seems so weird somehow.

TS: partner vs. bf/gf vs. SO vs. common-law fuckbuddy

The only people who should be saying partner are rappers and square-dance callers.

People who haven't met John tend to ask me who my 'partner' is bcz I give off mad lez vibes. I think. "So do you have a boyfriend? Or, uh...girlfriend, right?" *shrugs*

first 5 posts in this revive are some serious otm.

I just entered my 30's and I've got one close friend couple that's divorced, 2 on the verge and 2 that seem to be doing relatively ok. Everybody else is just drunk.

'partner' is fairly common in nz for unmarried ppl who are in longterm relationships. i prefer it to bf/gf because those terms seem too casual - to me, 'partner' implies something like 'this is the person i share my whole life with'.

I only have two friends who got married early; I think they were 23 at the time and they're one of the strongest couples I know. All our other friends are either recently married, single or engaged.

I can't imagine getting married in my early 20s. If I had I'd probably be divorced now too.

I like the sound of the term, partner.

http://www.noaura.com/images/pbride02.jpeg

I got married at 21 and am about to celebrate 17th wedding anniversary. Same w/my best friend. In fact, I know a lot of couples who got married around that age, from my peer group, and are still together. My sister, 2 years older than I am, is on husband #3, all within the last 10 years.

High fives!

Trust me, marriage is a whole different thing (compared to "being together.")

For us it was no different. But we don't have kids.

Partner, pardner?

Weeksie, who like I say is on his second marriage, got married first time round in 2004, about six weeks before Matt. By Matt's wedding, Weeksie's marriage was over. His wife found out about the affair he'd been having with a (mutual) colleague on the honeymoon. Weeksie then had a complete nervous breakdown and ended up on anti-depressants and in counselling for several months; turns out he hadn't wanted to get married in the first place and had been kind of rollercoasted into it by bride and mother of bride. Didn't really realise he was having an affair, or something. Tempted to think that this is bullshit and he tried to not only have his own cake and eat it, but also to have several other cakes, too. So marriage didn't really work for him. That time. He's now with the third partner since the break-up, not including his adultery accomplice, and has got married again.

-- Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 May 2008 08:31 (4 days ago) Link

I love Weeksie. He should be in a TV series called 'Weeksie's Women'.

-- Dr.C, Friday, 23 May 2008 08:39 (4 days ago) Link

Just found out, not a word of a lie, that he's now split up from his second wife. They only got married last year. I found out by asking a mutual friend why he'd vanished off Facebook. 2008. Here we are. In the future. Going insane.

The big difference between almost all my friends who are married (I'm 22, they all got married within a year or two of my age) and my friends who are in long term relationships is that the married ones are Christians and serious about it. I think this was an incentive. That's the only difference I can think of though. (And...um...they're all still married, but none of these marriages are more than a couple years old.)

serious about marriage or christanity?

LOL at abbott's lez vibes, I used to get that a lot, too (when I had short hair). People would ask, "Boyfriend? Or...er,, someone??? Significant other (cough) ?"

Trust me, marriage is a whole different thing (compared to "being together.")

For us it was no different. But we don't have kids.

I think it's different too. I feel much closer to L now that we're married. I don't know - maybe I would feel this way if we were together but not married although somehow I feel that going through the process of actually getting hitched has made everything stronger. I don't know *shrugs*.

Also, cute story: Last night we were putting together some crappy target bathroom shelving unit when he stopped and said, "You know what? Being married to you is brilliant." It was v cute.

Me and the wife lived together for ~4 years, had joint banking and credit cards, merged CD collections, and had moved across the country (twice!) before we actually got married, so nothing really seemed all that different for us. Other than filing joint taxes and wearing a ring it's all basically the same.

PP and I lived in sin for 5 weeks before wedding. Sorry, God!

Coming up on three years this Thursday...classic.

"Me and the wife lived together for ~4 years, had joint banking and credit cards, merged CD collections, and had moved across the country (twice!) before we actually got married, so nothing really seemed all that different for us. Other than filing joint taxes and wearing a ring it's all basically the same."

L and were together for 5 and a 1/2 years before we got married. I honestly don't know what it is but for me something about being married feels different in a very good way.

"serious about marriage or christanity?"

Christianity. Marriage, I assume, as well, but I would hope that's common to anyone who gets married.

(It's hard to find a way to say what I mean without risking offense or inaccuracy. I mean "conservative Christians," in one sense, but in lots of theological matters my friends are far from conservative. Or "devout Christians," but that brings up weird stereotypes too. "Christians who are conservative about sexuality" doesnøt even do it, because they are conservative about Biblical support for "the sanctity of marriage", and really apply it to their own lives, but also generally supportive of gay marriage and gender equality. I am not sure what to do about this wording problem.)

'Er indoors and I have been together 10 years today, and we are giddy.

Mad high fives!

Congratulations! We just celebrated our 12th wedding anniversary. Totally love my wife. We have a great daughter. I'm giddy, too.

In Hebrew, the word for husband literally means "The One who Rapes Me"

This is still the funniest thing in the world!

Being married is WICKED AWESOME by the way.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

5 years this coming weekend, wow

Same for me and Mr. Jaq. Congrats Mr. & Mrs. admrl! Also the Almanacs & the Esq.'s!

Yay fun for all! (Sez the single guy but hey!)

Hurrah! We are ace.

Just celebrated anniv. #2. Woot!

Congratulations!

Wow, I just read this thread from end to end. Congrats to all those who have the skillz to keep it together for so long!

But the more I read this thread, the more I realised that, although I'm totally in favour of marriage, and think it's a wonderful and worthy thing, I cannot even mentally conceive of any person I would want to marry.

I don't know if it's a fish/bicycle situation, are if there are just some people who really just shouldn't marry, and that's OK.

A friend of friends of mine posted the following post to facebook, which I thought was fairly provocative and well-written (although, surprise, as a married guy I don't exactly agree with it). I can't actually respond directly (nor would I want to since I don't know the guy) but if it's not too weird I thought I would repost here without his name.

I don't really think that it's okay for intelligent, politically conscious young people to get married. Like I think it's a choice that tends to isolate people inside a sad little social atom and make them get older and sadder and more lonely more quickly, and I think even when the particular choice to marry this person now is positive and loving, the broader life project to retreat into another nuclear family is often borne of lack of imagination plus a very deep fear. To be clear it's not the legal institution I have a problem with but the ethical form, the lifestyle, the commitment and domesticity--the decision to prioritize a single permanent (often stagnant) relationship with one other person over the twin possibilities of being engaged in a larger world of friendships and connections, on the one hand, and learning to be okay with aloneness on the other. I get the various psychological and economic pressures that lead people in that direction, but it's just not a decision for which I can muster respect.

Of course there are good marriages; I think most people have a couple examples they haul out on occasion to explain to themselves why they still want something they've seen go so badly so often. But there are also other ways of leading a life, and better ways.

Anyway I just wanted to get that out there.

I naturally seek enough forms of security already. I don't want or need this one.

a good best man speech

I think he is onto something. The nuclear family can tend to become a "sad little social atom" in some senses, a walled city binding those within closer together and keeping those without further apart, even with good intentions behind it. At the same time, with my friends no longer in their late 20s but in their mid to late 30s, I notice something -- an anecdotal thing but a pretty consistent one, which is that my married friends seem to be doing better financially and their lives seem to be developing in better directions lately than my single friends, many of whom are financially struggling, feeling lonely anyway, and feeling like the dating pickins are getting slimmer. Correlation =/= causation of course. I envied my single friends when I was in my late 20s and I don't now. Maybe I will again in my 40s, who knows. I miss the freer-form, more porous social structure of college and post-college sometimes. I miss the feeling that you could impromptu show up at someone's house or they at yours and you didn't feel like you were invading or being invaded, or like you were a "guest" in some formal sense. But at the same time my single friends don't seem to have that anymore. It could be that they are unhappy precisely because, with marriage as the default mode of existing as you get older, their social circles have thinned out and they face the judgment of everyone. Maybe in a society where not getting married was the norm, they'd be the happier ones.

lol sufjan

Even given his (many questionable) assumptions, it's odd to rank having one very intimate relationship below both a "larger world of friendships and connections" AND "aloneness."

...we SCANDALISED some poor woman by telling her that, if we were still together in 2014, we'd be getting married...

― katie, Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:00 PM (12 years ago)

My curiosity was piqued by this. On a different note:

I think it's a choice that tends to isolate people inside a sad little social atom and make them get older and sadder and more lonely more quickly, and I think even when the particular choice to marry this person now is positive and loving, the broader life project to retreat into another nuclear family is often borne of lack of imagination plus a very deep fear.

Making sweeping generalizations like these is much easier to sustain when you have a narrow set of ideas built upon a solid base of unrecognized and unacknowledged ignorance. These broad pronouncements are no more true than the pope's equally broad and ill-founded declarations the other day about couples loving their pets as if they were children. Marriage is whatever you and your partner make of it. All you have to do is agree (well, of course, that's the hard part).

Marriage is whatever you and your partner make of it. All you have to do is agree (well, of course, that's the hard part).

You can say that about any institution though. Doing so completely ignores structural aspects of the institution.

I mean obviously it's a sweeping generalization by someone not married and it's not entirely correct, but that doesn't mean there aren't insights there.

i think marriage is good for nakedly partisan and natalist reasons

In Hebrew, the word for husband literally means "The One who Rapes Me"

― Hurting 2, Friday, May 23, 2008 12:26 PM (6 years ago)

i'm not sure about this hurting -- i think the word chasun (bridegroom) just related to the word chassanah (wedding)?

the hebrew word for husband is baal

it more closely meens "one who rules over" or "the one who possesses" but I am told it has shades of rape in it

oh, okay. but that doesn't mean 'the one who rapes me,' it means 'master.' like the 'baal shem tov' was the 'master of a good name.' but yeah, obv some outdated gender ideas coded in that word for sure.

also baal peor - master of bowels, bc ppl worshipped him by defecating:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_of_Peor#Ba.27al_Pe.27or

I can't find a source for that now so idk. It definitely has unfeminist connotations regardless.

master of bowels!

I see it with my grandparents. Fuck they still bicker continuously after decades together.

Both dead now.

I don't really think that it's okay for intelligent, politically conscious young people to get married.

I like commitment. The feeling that there's an anchor in my life. The way you finish each other sentences. That he is there for me. I am there for him. The father of my children. How he changed me and I influence him. I like the shared memories. Something I didn't have as a (single) kid.

human relationships reify the socioeconomic structures that produce them

human relationships can deterritorialize, undermine, challenge those structures

we're all bundles of unthinking reification, mostly

anything that wakes us up for a second is a good

what if it wakes us up for a second and then stabs us to death?

beginning to think i'd lie back and embrace the knife

i liked the habitual, no shame in that

i like "mundane" better than "habitual" but yeah neither of those things is the enemy - this kind of objection to marriage is a kind of false consciousness argument which is usually contingent on a reasonably crummy notion of the authentic

which isn't to say that the authentic can't also be a valuable metric or vision

might marry for the tax breaks but I resent the hell out of them tbh

other than that idk there's an awful lot of shitty marriages and leaving them seems prohibitive for a number of reasons that may not apply to less formal unions (many (most?) of which may also be shitty)

the original argument isn't about the formal structures but about any iteration of union of two souls i think

was referring to:
http://cdn4.pitchfork.com/albums/19042/homepage_large.0aadd916.jpg

lol passing me by

You can say that about any institution though. Doing so completely ignores structural aspects of the institution.

With a marriage, unlike most institutions, there are only two members who must find common ground and make common cause. Because you are in control of half the membership and have only one other person to work with, the chances that you can make your marriage responsive to your mutual needs is quite high, if you start in a good place and are willing to work at it maintaining it.

As for "structural aspects", other than a few legally defined obligations, I think you do not understand the degree to which the private aspects and understandings in a marriage are the hidden body of the iceberg, while the public parts are the tip. Even children who live in the same house as their parents get to see less than half of what passes between their parents. That is, unless the marriage is so completely broken that there is no private understanding that remains between the spouses, only a void filled with resentment and animosity.

no private understanding that remains between the spouses, only a void filled with resentment and animosity.

― Aimless, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 18:14 (11 minutes ago)

that is the sort of marriage to be aspired to, please don't denigrate it

its the ideal as demonstrated to my litter anyways

and it remains to be seem whether you would have had the hunger and drive to become one of i love football's most frequently cited poster's without it

lol it recently occurred to me that I strongly feel I would rather get married to someone than live with them. It's not the commitment I fear, it's the cohabitation.

an awful lot of shitty marriages

Yeah, but you see a lot of awful relationships too, no doubt. Also, that is just a moment. It can pass (divorce or they work it out). I have had shitty moments. Thing is, we worked it out. Also, I am happy I saw my parents have their crappy times. It taught me that it's okay to fight.

Like I think it's a choice that tends to isolate people inside a sad little social atom and make them get older and sadder and more lonely more quickly, and I think even when the particular choice to marry this person now is positive and loving, the broader life project to retreat into another nuclear family is often borne of lack of imagination plus a very deep fear. To be clear it's not the legal institution I have a problem with but the ethical form, the lifestyle, the commitment and domesticity--the decision to prioritize a single permanent (often stagnant) relationship with one other person over the twin possibilities of being engaged in a larger world of friendships and connections, on the one hand, and learning to be okay with aloneness on the other. I get the various psychological and economic pressures that lead people in that direction, but it's just not a decision for which I can muster respect.

this guy seems like a real jerk

ime strong nuclear families are attached to broader extended families which can keep the smaller unit from spinning into total isolation

tho families do constitute exclusive communities that a radical egalitarian might have trouble squaring w/ their particular utopian project

Often the root of family tragedies: they are isolated, don't have any support,...

I don't really think that it's okay for intelligent, politically conscious young people to get married.

I can't really get past the blinkered judgdmentalism of this opening sentence, sorry. Only assholes say things like this.

"oh like you guys are in love and want kids and to live together for a long time and shit? HOW UNINTELLIGENT AND POLITICALLY IRRESPONSIBLE OF YOU"

"how dare you decide to hurt yourselves in this way"

Honestly, who took his banter seriously? I think it's hilarious.

there's a strange transactional concept of relationships underlying his critique of marriage as transactional. feel like he's saying the return on investment isn't enough, whether in some sense of social capital ("connections") or political effectivity.

child-rearing does not seem to have crossed this guy's mind, lol

families are kinda the last bastion of acceptable exclusivity + prejudice. no one can really fairly criticize you for privileging your relations above strangers. in that sense it sorta platonically reifies all failures of egalitarianism. i wonder if this accounts for why the reactionary right is historically so gung-ho about family and the radical left so dismissive.

Hm. Marriage/families also extend the self? Like your spouse (esp, traditionally, if you are a man) is you/yours, your children are extensions of you/yours, but also enough not-you that when you sacrifice your individual self for them, it's framed as a self-less act.

Anyway, maybe there's something to the conservative affinity for the amplification/extension of self and the permission to prioritize the individual/individual loyalties over wider ones.

historically spouse + children in marriage are more extensions of the self bc of property than bc of selfless sacrifice of the individual. i think you're right that some selflessness has always been present, and i think it's more characterized that way in modernity, but i think the original impulse of marriage is essentially restrictive. but i think that can be a good/powerful/protective thing to have.

(not that treating your spouse like chattel is productive - but that this kind of loyalty, incorporation of the family into the self, etc, can be)

really doe

so many of my left-leaning friends, their child-having especially seems ethically suspect

they can't come up with much better justifications than 'having children was important to me', 'it's just something i wanted to do'

and of course along with the kid comes all kind of social and economic entrenchment, whatever they say about teaching their kid to share and eat cruelty-free chicken fingers

i think i once got trenchant social commentaried for saying that having children is an ultimately selfish act. def reactionary from a biological/survival pov.

first week on the freshman dorms i was fascinated to meet a young woman who was vigorously pro-zero-population-growth

now she is a stay-at-home catholic mother of four

it's not real clear that the world is better off that way

totally unrelated anecdote but that reminds me of a woman i know who was doing her doctoral research on satmar chassidim and ultimately she dropped out of the program, became satmar and now has like 9 kids.

that's dedicated flunking

"oh like you guys are in love and want kids and to live together for a long time and shit?

ya why get married tho

lots of good posts from hurting! i agree that this dude is making sweeping generalizations and is presenting a pretty narrow and reductive assessment of marriage and that he is an arrogant asshole. at the same time i think hurting is right that he may have at least an insight or two.

i'm generally happy in my marriage but there are plenty of times when i do feel like we live in a little isolated social atom. i feel like there are a lot of opportunities when i would have otherwise initiated friendships or accepted offers to hang out or asked a colleague to get a beer after work or see an art show on the weekend or whatever, but i decline because it feels like too much effort to coordinate plans with my wife, tell her about my schedule, talk about who will take care of our son, and balance my need for outside connection with hers. this seemed like a problem even before we had kids but now it feels even worse. it feels burdensome on the other partner if one of us spontaneously drops news that he/she won't be home for dinner that night. it still happens but not that much, feels like we have to plan a week or more out to make things happen with our respective friends.

feels even harder when we try to make plans with another couple, you have four adults' schedules to work around plus kids' naps and bedtimes. we have close friends in the city who we see maybe every 1-2 months, it's kind of sad, but it seems impossible to think about how that could be any different.

befriend your neighbors, institute weekly community gatherings

At the same time, with my friends no longer in their late 20s but in their mid to late 30s, I notice something -- an anecdotal thing but a pretty consistent one, which is that my married friends seem to be doing better financially and their lives seem to be developing in better directions lately than my single friends, many of whom are financially struggling, feeling lonely anyway, and feeling like the dating pickins are getting slimmer. Correlation =/= causation of course. I envied my single friends when I was in my late 20s and I don't now. Maybe I will again in my 40s, who knows. I miss the freer-form, more porous social structure of college and post-college sometimes. I miss the feeling that you could impromptu show up at someone's house or they at yours and you didn't feel like you were invading or being invaded, or like you were a "guest" in some formal sense. But at the same time my single friends don't seem to have that anymore. It could be that they are unhappy precisely because, with marriage as the default mode of existing as you get older, their social circles have thinned out and they face the judgment of everyone.

lots of otm here. i miss that sense of community and connectedness that fostered lots of spontaneous, free-form hanging out that i had in college and a few years after that. it was awesome. i wasn't single then; my wife and i started dating in college but it felt like our relationship was grounded in a community of people. we always were hanging out with a group of friends. shit feels a little isolating some times now.

i feel like there are a lot of opportunities when i would have otherwise initiated friendships or accepted offers to hang out or asked a colleague to get a beer after work or see an art show on the weekend or whatever, but i decline because it feels like too much effort to coordinate plans with my wife, tell her about my schedule, talk about who will take care of our son, and balance my need for outside connection with hers

Right, this. Once it becomes logistically complicated, and once there's all that negotiation and balance to work out, it sometimes becomes easier to just not make the plans. Or you feel like "I don't want to spend the goodwill on this one, it's not worthwhile enough." This is 5x moreso with kids than without.

We are lucky enough to have made a few friends who live very close by and have kids. We live right across the street from the playground/park and meet a lot of families who also live right around here. It's starting to become easier now that we're settling into the neighborhood to just say "hey, bring your kids over" on the spot or to get invited over on the spot. Kids can help you kind of lower your social barriers and break down expectations wrt formal get-togethers. Come over for frozen pizza and show up in your shorts and flip-flops, we're all tired parents here, etc.

Yeah having other casual parent friends is key

i find that we become friends w/ a lot of parents with whom i share very few things in common except that it's convenient to hang out w/ them and our kids go to school together. luckily i find alcohol + sports are pretty popular among almost all adult couples.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/marriage-abduction

I thought this was interesting, if maybe a little panicked and handwringy.