Inquiry into child abuse at Catholic institutions in Ireland

An inquiry into child abuse at Catholic institutions in Ireland has found church leaders knew that sexual abuse was "endemic" in boys' institutions.

It also found physical and emotional abuse and neglect were features of institutions.

Schools were run "in a severe, regimented manner that imposed unreasonable and oppressive discipline on children and even on staff".

The nine-year inquiry investigated a 60-year period.

About 35,000 children were placed in a network of reformatories, industrial schools and workhouses up to the 1980s.

More than 2,000 told the Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse they suffered physical and sexual abuse while there.

The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady, said he was "profoundly sorry and deeply ashamed that children suffered in such awful ways in these institutions".

Mr Walsh said: "I would have never opened my wounds if I'd known this was going to be the end result.

"It has devastated me and will devastate most victims because there are no criminal proceedings and no accountability whatsoever."

Police were called to the Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse's news conference in Dublin amid angry scenes as victims were prevented from attending.

The victims were among 35,000 children who were placed in a network of reformatories, industrial schools and workhouses until the early 1990s.

More than 1,000 people had told the commission they suffered physical and sexual abuse.

'Self-serving secrecy'

The five-volume study concluded that church officials encouraged ritual beatings and consistently shielded their orders' paedophiles from arrest amid a "culture of self-serving secrecy".

The commission found that sexual abuse was "endemic" in boys' institutions, and church leaders knew what was going on.

It also found physical and emotional abuse and neglect were rife in some institutions.

Schools were run "in a severe, regimented manner that imposed unreasonable and oppressive discipline on children and even on staff".

It found the Department of Education had generally dismissed or ignored complaints of child sexual abuse and dealt inadequately with them.

As far back as the 1940s, school inspectors reported broken bones and malnourished children but no action was taken.

The report proposed 21 ways the Irish government could recognise past wrongs, including building a permanent memorial, providing counselling and education to victims, and improving current child protection services.

The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady, said he was "profoundly sorry and deeply ashamed that children suffered in such awful ways in these institutions".

"This report makes it clear that great wrong and hurt were caused to some of the most vulnerable children in our society," he said.

"It documents a shameful catalogue of cruelty: neglect, physical, sexual and emotional abuse, perpetrated against children."

The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, said those who perpetrated violence and abuse should be held to account, "no matter how long ago it happened".

"Every time there is a single incident of abuse in the Catholic Church, it is a scandal. I would be very worried if it wasn't a scandal... I hope these things don't happen again, but I hope they're never a matter of indifference," he said.

Victims of child abuse at Catholic institutions in the Irish Republic have expressed anger that a damning report will not bring about prosecutions.

The report, nine years in the making and covering a period of six decades, found thousands of boys and girls were terrorised by priests and nuns.

Government inspectors failed to stop beatings, rapes and humiliation.

John Walsh, of Irish Survivors of Child Abuse, said he felt "cheated and deceived" by the lack of prosecutions.

The findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions - in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report.

No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.

disgusting that there will be no prosecutions.

some quotes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8060333.stm

Abuse report - at a glance

The findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions - in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report.

How can this be allowed?

we were poor but we were happy. the celtic tiger ruined our independent state of systematic child abuse that we fought the British to found.

jesus christ the coverage of this is just.... i didn't think i could be upset/affected/surprised by this kind of revelation after the mid 90's, but listening to the radio this morning was an ordeal.

The guy representing the victims interviewed outside the Inquiry was awesome, what a mensch

i'm not certain, but i don't think i saw anything about this on RTE last night. this country needs razing to the fuckin ground if that's the case. it was on BBC, right?

And Sky. And Channel 4. And Channel 5. Etc.

Wow if that's true that's fucked up.

i assume youre joking about it not being on RTE as it's had blanket coverage you're fed up of seeing already?

if not, what Neil said.

we were poor but we were happy. the celtic tiger ruined our independent state of systematic child abuse that we fought the British to found.

― Local Garda, Thursday, May 21, 2009 2:16 AM (8 hours ago)

sorta lol but mostly sad

Punish me, I am wicked for thinking this is perfect for a Defend the Indefensible thread

there was nothing on the 6 o clock rte evning news, i didn't see the 9 o clock news, but i'm pretty sure bbc had interviews etc for the 6.30 news so it can hardly have been a time issue?

not a whats on your ipod thread?
xp

Nah, it's too horrible for even me to squeeze any giggles out of

as the actress said to the bishop..

As the choirboy said to the bishop

as the choirboy bashed the bishop

were you ever an altar boy, tom?

What are you implying there?

I was an altar boy. Thankfully never encountered any paedos, but when you think about the scale of it prob was pretty lucky. I mean not saying every single parish had a paedophile priest in it but eg the parish next to where I grew up in Dublin did.

All this stuff is basically the biggest reason not to be patriotic and the one thing I want to say anytime Irish people do their "oh we're so fucking great..what a country" thing...

tbh, the alcoholism and self defeating negativity blamed on absloutely every other country ever, or at least the next county, is the biggest.

negativity only refers to matters outside the property market, obv

I was an altar boy, no paedos either thankfully but when we moved to prestwick in '83(and i had long stopped being an altar boy as i didnt want to do it again in another parish where things might be done deliberately), after a few years the parish got a new priest, and a few years after we moved to Hamilton in '91, the daily record had a story about how that priest had been found to have abused kids in the 1970s in Irvine. I dont know if he ever went to jail or anything as he had been shipped off to the home for paedophile priests in canada. Makes you wonder why he got moved to our parish in the first place. I bet they knew what he'd done, and just moved him 5 miles.
Makes me hate the church so much more than i already did. Though I feel sorry for the genuine priests , it must really hurt them to get tarred with the same brush. But those who covered it all up are scum and it's disgusting that they never get prosecuted.

I'm staggered that none of the people in this report wont get named or prosecuted. Those who covered it up must run right to the top of the church and government.

What are you implying there?

hah, implying nothing, was just asking if you were an altar boy (since most boys at catholic primary school in the west of scotland tend to be altar boys)

All this stuff is basically the biggest reason not to be patriotic and the one thing I want to say anytime Irish people do their "oh we're so fucking great..what a country" thing...

But you try telling Americans that...

doesnt just apply to american wannabe irish people

most boys at catholic primary school in the west of scotland tend to be altar boys

Really? There were ~200 boys in my primary school and I only remember a couple from every year ever even thinking about it.

I always thought the Christian Brothers aren't/weren't priests.

The other thing that doesn't actually bear thinking about is Africa. How many paedophile priests got shipped off as missionaries? I say that as someone whose uncle is a missionary, obviously there are good priests out there, but you can only imagine they must have packed off a load of the worst ones wherever they could, and they could prob get away with a lot more in some parts of the world.

x-post I think the Christian Brothers were priests. The other thing is as well as sexual abuse, physical punishment was rife in the schools. Even my Dad would say today some of the brothers were sadistic fuckers.

onimo, at my primary schools almost all of them were (mind you, they werent very big schools, so that might explain it). If i had grown up in Hamilton it may have been different as the catholic schools here are huge ,as it happened the place i lived in where i was an altar boy was a wee village 5 miles outside hamilton only a couple of miles from Larkhall.

My mum got a scholarship to a school run by nuns in Bothwell, and she says they were all lovely kind people. A few of them you might be a bit scared of like you would with any teacher, but on the whole they were really nice. She says it wasnt like convent schools are stereotyped as.

at my secondary school in Ayr, i'd bet less than half of the school ever went to mass. Most of us only went as our mum (in my case) or dads went.
My dad isnt a catholic and generally doesnt have much time for religions.

About 4 people in my year at school went to priests college, none of them made it to the end.

My grandfather went to a Christian Brothers place in or around Derry and told me there were a few nasty bastards there but it was all physical/corporal punishment rather than sexual abuse as far as he knew. That would have been sometime around 1915-25 I think.

I had always thought "Brother" = "Layman working for the church" - though I'm sure priests were involved in the running of the organisation and in the covering up of the abuse.

The other thing that doesn't actually bear thinking about is Africa. How many paedophile priests got shipped off as missionaries?

i hadn't even thought of that. It's just scary to think about.

x-post yeah you may be right that they weren't priests, I'm not sure actually myself. I think my Dad would have had similar experience as your Grandad, corporal punishment seems to have been common in the day schools. I suppose it was boarding schools and orphanages etc where the sexual abuse went on. The really horrible part about it is that it was almost like a ripple effect from the state having such weird religiously tainted ways of dealing with orphans/kids born out of wedlock etc etc...

My grandfather left Belfast when he was 6 months old in 1899. He died when I was 3 months old. I assume he had relatives in the south, i hate the thought of anyone going to those places.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-60996841.html

damn you need an account to read it

The really horrible part about it is that it was almost like a ripple effect from the state having such weird religiously tainted ways of dealing with orphans/kids born out of wedlock etc etc...

― Local Garda, Thursday, 21 May 2009 15:10 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

what was amazing to me was it wasn't just orphans and kids born out of wedlock, but if a kid just skipped school he might end up being sent to an industrial school. they were run as moneymaking scams, taking big sums from the govt and spending the minimum on care, and they had a constant appetite for new recruits. so when there were insufficient orphans, so they went around inventing reasons to take kids in.

but it's about how the bishop covered up about the priest i mentioned upthread

what was amazing to me was it wasn't just orphans and kids born out of wedlock, but if a kid just skipped school he might end up being sent to an industrial school.

Indeed, the judiciary were as culpable as the Church and various governments which, uhhhhhhh, doesn't leave much

no wonder names have been kept out of it and there's no prosecutions.

christian brothers sued for anonymity in the report

going back a few years, the church have paid 100m to the govt, in return for complete indmenity against all further compensation claims. ie- the taxpayer will pay for most of these cases.

cardinals have resigned due to the public uncovering of their lack of co-operation with legal investigations, using canon/church law as an excuse.

i'm glad i was never religious to begin with.

i can't believe more than one of yous was an altar boy! You dorks.

you weren't one?

i bet you were an altar boy at st john the baptists in uddingston but you just dont want to admit it.

i was forced to go to church until i was 13 so i went to st johns + st brides in bothwell every Sunday but i never wanted to be an altar boy and we used to make fun of the altar boys for being religious.

although most of them weren't, never really understood that.

they just liked ringing the bell or whatever.

how on earth can the Christian brothers sue for anonymity in a report that reports criminal acts? Is it a civil report? Either way, bunch of cnuts.

Stealing the communion wine seemed to be a popular pastime.

xp

they just liked ringing the bell or whatever.

Euphemisms-R-Us

yeah, that was badly phrased. I always feel bad about all these horror stories of the catholic church, because although I'm not at all religious and have no interest in it my experiences with the catholic church and priests is as positive as can be. Our school chaplin Father Miller smoked, drank pints, went to Celtic games and drove a convertible, he was cool.

communion wine is minging.

i bet you love the smell of incense, jim ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8381119.stm

It wont harm The Priests album in the charts though I bet.

what amazes me now...thinking more on this, is the motivation behind the cover up. it just seems the most irreligious sentiment imaginable, we can't reveal that a man is raping children because then the faith we represent will lose credibility. what the fuck do you represent if that's what you're doing? good riddance to them.

institutional religion in the gutter

20 years ago you could rape a child in the street

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8556659.stm

..... almost used to this kind of story by now, except that it's refreshing that someone bothered to track one down and ask him a question or two.

i'd imagine that irish media won't be naming him.

Really?

maybe now that it's broken in the uk, but there was injunctions against the naming of priests involved (for the most part, certainly) under all of the proceedings so far.

i know i slag off your labour and democratic governments guys, but at least they don't cut deals with systematic child abuse organisations.

head of the church here. bit tl:dr, but the essentials are fairly eye-popping.

"The Catholic primate Cardinal Seán Brady has renewed his intention to resist calls for his resignation following revelations about his involvement in a 1975 canonical inquiry into child sex abuser Fr Brendan Smyth.

Cardinal Brady yesterday defended his role at the meeting where a boy (10) and a girl (14) who were abused by Smyth were forced to take a vow of silence. He denied he helped to cover up cases of alleged sex abuse of children in the diocese of Kilmore and insisted he would not resign.

Smyth pleaded guilty to 74 charges of sexually abusing children between 1958 and 1993. Sentenced to seven years in prison, Smyth (70) died in jail in 1997.

The cardinal was a priest and a teacher in Kilmore when he was asked to interview two children, under oath of secrecy, by the then bishop Dr Francis McKiernan. He said these interviews formed the basis of the action taken to remove Smyth from pastoral ministry, adding that he was not the “designated person” to report the issue to the civil authorities. He also denied the oath of secrecy was designed to protect the church.

........

In an interview broadcast on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland today, Dr Brady said he was aware of the calls for him to resign. “I’ve heard those calls, I’ve said I don’t think it was a resigning matter,” he said. “I’ve also heard other calls, many other calls, to stay and to continue the work of addressing this most difficult problem.”

Dr Brady referred to an interview with RTÉ last December in which he said he would resign if he ever found children had been abused as a result of any failing on his part while a bishop or manager. “Well, 30 years ago, 35 years ago, I was not a bishop, I was not a manager, I was a full-time secondary teacher and I was there taking evidence,” he said.

"Thirty-five years ago we were in a different world. We had no guidance, we were in unchartered territory. Now we have higher standards thankfully and certainly I wouldn't act in the same way now as I did then," he added.

The cardinal said there were growing calls for more discourse on “this most painful, most complex and devastating problem” and resignations would not help this process. “I add my voice to those calls for more discussion on the part of all of society, and especially on the part of those most closely involved - the members of the medical profession, the legal profession, the media - about how it is handled,” he said.

Cardinal Brady said the fact that Smyth had gone on to commit further acts of abuse was "because others didn't do their duty."

"I felt I did my duty, the duty that was assigned to me by my bishop. It's not fair to judge actions of 35 years ago by the standards we are following today," he said.

Dr Brady also apologised to the victims of Smyth. "I am deeply sorry that this happened and am committed to doing my utmost now to bring healing and closure and to ensure that such crimes are never committed again."

In a separate interview with BBC Radio Ulster, Dr Brady said he had helped gather evidence for the church to stop Smyth operating as a priest, and that thereafter it was the relevant bishop, plus Smyth’s religious order, who had responsibility for the case.

“Now I know with hindsight that I should have done more, but I thought at the time I was doing what I was required to do. Not just that, but most effectively, I can tell you, I acted with great urgency to get that evidence and to produce it and I believed that in doing so I was following the most effective route to have this stopped and that was my main concern and always has been - the safety of children,” he said.

He said he would only resign “if asked by the Holy Father”.
"

I mean I just want to recap on what one of the most senior church members in Ireland has to say about being present at (and conducting, in cases) interviews where abused children were asked to swear oaths of secrecy.

"I felt I did my duty, the duty that was assigned to me by my bishop. It's not fair to judge actions of 35 years ago by the standards we are following today," he said.

"Thirty-five years ago we were in a different world. We had no guidance, we were in unchartered territory.

"I felt I did my duty, the duty that was assigned to me by my bishop. It's not fair to judge actions of 35 years ago by the standards we are following today,"

It's a pity that I don't believe in a hell that this guy will rot in, tbh.

Dr Brady referred to an interview with RTÉ last December in which he said he would resign if he ever found children had been abused as a result of any failing on his part while a bishop or manager. “Well, 30 years ago, 35 years ago, I was not a bishop, I was not a manager, I was a full-time secondary teacher and I was there taking evidence,” he said.

fucking hell

This isn't even a moral issue for the guy- I've heard him interviewed over the past few days- he was asked to look into this, he looked into it, he ensured silence, he reported back to his superiors.

A spy novelists fucking dream, this guy.

Is there no way public opinion can force him to resign? Or are people putting their heads under the carpet and pretending its all not happened to their church? I just cant imagine that happening here even amongst the most dedicated catholics.
I just cant understand the mindset of those who have covered stuff up just to protect the church's reputation. At least those guys must believe they're going to hell... oh wait if they confessed their sins to a fellow priest then they believe they're ok. Fucking hell.

im still pissed off that a paedo priest from the 70s was allowed to be my parish priest when i was a teenager in the late 80s. I'm glad I wasn't an altar boy there, though I haven't heard of any allegations that he did it after he was moved. Then again, after the daily record piece on him where they said he had been sent to canada to a home to be rehabilitated, i never heard of him facing any charges either. He was under 60 so there's a good chance he's still alive.

Public opinion forcing him to resign- No. Not a chance. Will take a direct request from Ratzinger. This generation of churchmen were inculculated in the 50's and 60's, remember- the irish general public is literally their flock.

people pretending it's not happening- no, ever since these stories broke (the smyth case in particular, which brought down a govt when we refused to extradite him to the north in 94, leading to a junior calition party to withdraw from government) public opinion hasn't been soft on the church. nobody will back him entirely, and very few will even allow any leeway for his defence (under canon law i acted correctly)

no sign of our govt acting decisively on this, which is the most depressing part. obviously the church is fucked, and if there is nobody currently elected willing to speak publicly on this in the necessary terms (up to and including arrests of senior hierarchy imo) then we're still 30-40 years behind where i'd have hoped.

basically, we, as a country, are fucked- the church and the political/legal establishments are willing (fair enough, i'm far from an idealist) and completely able (extremely worrying) to ignore child abuse and the covering up of child abuse on a systematic and institutionalised basis.

Cardinal Brady said the fact that Smyth had gone on to commit further acts of abuse was "because others didn't do their duty."

And it's not like any priests or bishops or cardinals or anything can come out and campaign for reform within the church to tackle this or anything as they will swiftly get reprimanded/sent on missionary work to a minefield infested country. Very sad that the irish government wont do anything either because it would mean it coming out that prominent politicians were either involved in the abuse or the cover ups.
No chance of one of the opposition parties running with this and getting into power promising they will do something about it all?

20 years ago you could rape a child in the street

― I see what this is (Local Garda)
lol

Cardinal Brady said the fact that Smyth had gone on to commit further acts of abuse was "because others didn't do their duty. cardinal brady didn't go to the police and get the paedophile cunt jailed like he should have "

fuck's sake man, can't you read? that wasn't his job.

what did he pass first? the buck or the lube?

Brendan Smyth (1927–1997) was a Catholic priest who became notorious as a child molester, using his position in the Church to obtain access to his victims. During a period of over 40 years, Smyth sexually abused and indecently assaulted an estimated ninety[1] children in parishes in Belfast, Dublin and the United States.

welp thats crystal swing explained

In May 1999 the Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern apologized for an overall lack of supervision and funding by past Irish governments. Despite the eminent position of the church in Irish society, suing it (as in the case of Sean Fortune) was found to be equivalent to suing any club or social group. In 2002 his government agreed to take on €128 million in church property and investments and in return it would pay compensation to all church abuse victims, so that bankruptcy could be avoided. This deal was estimated to cost over €1 billion to Irish taxpayers of all religions, and the relevant minister, Michael Woods, was criticized by some for undue leniency to the church.[15] Criminal actions could still be brought separately against alleged abusers. However out of the 100 allegations there have been only five criminal convictions

these abuses seem to be considered as institutional failings and for sure there is a lot of anticlerical disgust but little acknowledgement of the psychopathology inherent in catholic dogma

it's very easy for people to be scathing about the church whilst really being quite accepting of its place in public life

psychopathology inherent in catholic dogma

in what way?

"I also apologise to all those who feel I have let them down."

Not "I also apologise to all those who I have let down". Bastard.

That use of "feel" is so typical of politicians/ public figures who don't really want to apologise but have to for the sake of their careers

I've been known to use it as well when I don't feel responsible for the criticisms of others, but then I didn't facilitate the rape of children.

braggin 2010

"His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI has accepted the resignation of the Most Reverend John Magee, Bishop of Cloyne. This announcement was made today in Rome at 12:00 local time."

only took a year to mull this over too!

http://www.funnyphotos.net.au/images/guiness-ad-good-things-come-to-those-who-wait1.jpg

*applause*

heh i think guinness are trying to pull away from controversial advertising choices tbh

(they've moved away from 'guinness is good for you' this week, and have stopped the free pint to blood donors)

just <3 this racist sexist homophobic patriarchy!

god is love yall!

ya they are d best imo

http://www.morethings.com/music/sinead/sinead_oconnor_pictures/snl_1992war-pope/saturday_night_live10-3-1992sinead_occonor-war-pope85.jpg

'Ireland's KGB'

ireland's KGB are FF tbh

^^^

church are the politburo, maybe.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7065824.ece

not ireland, but here is an article about the catholic church's complicity in child abuse credited to "roger boyes"

loooooool

^ seconded. I mean, really?!

oh dear

his editor is s. odom-ladd

Peadar Astí is their Gailge correspondent

gaeilge. 13 fucking years of it as a core language and i can't even spell it.

i feel no national pride, apart from say sport related....ireland, jesus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/25/AR2010032502363.html?hpid=topnews

Email address at the bottom!

To Sinead O'Connor, Pope Benedict's apology for church sex abuse rings hollow

Why you, I oughta...

mikeglossy wrote:
If Sinead O'Connor is so passionate about this she should send a letter to Obama and his accomplices in Washington. Obamacare makes it possible for pedophiles and sex perverts to get Free Viagra complements of tax payers. I bet the WP in bed with Obama wouldn't print that letter would you, leftists WP?
3/26/2010 11:17:11 AM

Roger Boyes, tut tut!
I think that's worth a £1 just on it's own.

just ugh

jeez

davidabsalom

1 Apr 2010, 3:53PM

Donohue wants it to be an argument about paedophilia or homosexuality. It draws attention away from the real issue: the victims were in the care of the church and its officials and the church did all it could to protect the abusers.

that is what homosexuals do though, right? get raped by priests when they're 12? it's a lifestyle choice, i got no sympathy for those guys.

this fuck was on the last word (Irish national radio current affairs programme) after the printing of the cloynes/dublin archdiocese reports, and it was about the only time i've heard the host just give up on a guest and pull the plug.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8601084.stm

Oh and an apology to scottish victims of abuse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8600595.stm

http://www.eoinbutler.com/home/isnt-sinead-oconnor-overdue-a-massive-grovelling-apology-from-absolutely-everybody/

also ice cold from beardy: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/03/world/AP-EU-Church-Abuse.html?_r=1&hp

that sinead o'connor op-ed is OTM

As recently as 2007, 98 percent of Irish schools were run by the Catholic Church.

wha???!?!?! does that mean most irish kids are forced to learn catechism and stuff?

i only know a couple ppl that didn't go to catholic school

''I was speaking to an Irish friend recently who was saying that it's quite difficult in some parts of Ireland to go down the street wearing a clerical collar now,'' Williams told the BBC. ''And an institution so deeply bound into the life of a society, suddenly becoming, suddenly losing all credibility -- that's not just a problem for the church, it is a problem for everybody in Ireland, I think.''

how true is this? are catholic priests rly despised by a plurality of people?

its odd. i was talking to my mum a couple of weeks ago. those big chats yknow, 'do you believe in god etc.' nothing i would ever approach her with before cos i always thought 'ah well shes set in her ways and whatever' but theres a simmering resentment against the way the catholic church had kept her generation so firmly under its thumb. she HAD to go to mass back in the day no matter what and now she feels why bother? she feels cheated. i dont think theres a hatred against priests though. the parish priest in our diocese is a very decent bloke for example but she was telling me about certain priests when she was growing up who wouldnt even even look at regular folk. they would only consort with the local chermist or doctor. same guy became a bishop or some bullshit. like i said she feels duped, i dont think parish priests are living in fear right now, a bit of an exaggeration i think.

that's the sort of traditional 'there's good and bad' thinking you'd expect

that quote is interesting, 'difficult go down the street' suggests fear but then i doubt priests are being randomly and publically abused very often

could it be shame?

can u link to where that quote came from?

Parish Priest! to thread

the nytimes link from caek above

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/03/world/AP-EU-Church-Abuse.html?_r=1&hp

how true is this? are catholic priests rly despised by a plurality of people?

nah as michael says people are very pissed off at church hierarchy and procedures, but they're not abusing/projecting on to their parish priests or anything.

And an institution so deeply bound into the life of a society, suddenly becoming, suddenly losing all credibility -- that's not just a problem for the church, it is a problem for everybody in Ireland, I think

rong. the church isn't a big part of irish life for anyone i know within ten years of my own age. this guy and basically anyone over maybe 40 is just either oblivious or kidding themselves, but the church is finished in ireland save participation in social rituals such as weddings, christenings, funerals what have you. the break from the educational lock they have at the moment is coming soon i think, and once it becomes something that parents will have to make a conscious effort to introduce their children into that'll be that. they're a service industry catering to an aging and unreplaced market.

that's great to hear

how will the education system be reformed?

as in that seems sort of difficult if they still run most of the schools

be lying if i told you i knew much more than it's an ongoing movement- atm there's choice in the secondary school system to the tune of maybe 50/50 (at a guess) between catholic-ethos-nominally-but-state-run and maybe the likes of christian brothers/nuns schools. the big movement for reform is coming in the national school system, where it must be well over 90% catholic-run.

this is just an indicator, but i'm sure there's been official movement on this in the past while:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0125/1224263035014.html

thanks

i'm no good at parsing searches this time of night on bank holiday weekends, but it shouldn't be difficult to get better information for yourself tbh.

sinead o'connor bleating on the late late friday night about 'they are not representing the holy spirit' was an odd one. it was like she was trying to reach out to irish belief that isnt there and hasnt been there for a long time now.

dont think the church has really represented beliefs in ireland in a long long time. This is really where the problem is imo, people's fealty lies with the institution itself rather than what it represents so that when shit like this comes up, it is not their beliefs that they feel are being betrayed and so the disconnection between the church's purported message (hey love one another you guys) and the bad shit they have repeatedly done for aeons isn't really a sticking point.

Also its worth bearing in mind that Irish people have been treated pretty badly by the church their whole lives (esp. older gen ppl) and have stuck with them with stockholm syndrome dependency, so I mean, I don't really believe that this is the unexploded mine thats gonna tear the church down here and feel that the growing animosity as it is being portrayed is really being exaggerated by both liberal-minded journo types (the press has got this weirdly hysterical disconnection from the gen. mood off slightly peeved apathy in normal folks I think) who really want this to be the end of the strange grip held by an institution which has had a fairly abusive history with this country, but also by the church which it seems is pretty happy to play up the backlash (the pope's letter talks a lot about the deterioration of religious values and respect being a large fault in Ireland, its like they're trying to play wounded in order to shift the political mood away from animosity)

One thing I have been thinking about is how clever the church is about the shit it can get away with in different countries (thinking esp here of the case recently enough where the vatican defended the excommunication of the ppl who helped a brazilian girl have an abortion when she became pregnant after being raped, the man who raped her was not excommunicated cos you know jesus is about forgiveness right?) Obviously there's a lot of freedoms that Irish ppl take for granted now that the church would have fairly recently taken a hard line on, I think if the church actually started encroaching on these freedoms now the backlash would be real, but they're too smart for that shit u no?

sinead o'connor bleating on the late late friday night about 'they are not representing the holy spirit' was an odd one. it was like she was trying to reach out to irish belief that isnt there and hasnt been there for a long time now.

i didn't see it?, so i don't know, but i think there's reaching out and there's showing that you occupy some of the same ground as your antagonist but disagree regarding specifics. some of the most powerful parts of letter from a birmingham jail are in MLK reclaiming 'god's will' from people who are misusing it, saying the lord isn't a segregationist etc.

can't help but feel ur all being distracted by gossip tbh

tiern@n's right about just about everything, btw. the church has relinquished power slowly, until it's an irrelevance except among the older generation.

This fucking guy

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/40884/

Pope Benedict refuses to accept the resignation of two auxiliary bishops heavily criticised in Murphy report.

Apparently, when the two in question were contacted to clarify their resignation letters, they expressed belief that they had done nothing wrong. Pope's ok with that, issue resolved.

Diarmuid Martin must feel like he's up against the lot of them, I relly feel for him and his efforts at this stage.

a little off-topic but I'm curiously anticipating the shitstorm I suspect will surround the UK papal visit

I don't hink it's off-topic at all- the coverage of this stuff is, if the earlier discussions itt are accurate, at least as comprehensive in teh UK as over here.

I look forward to it. There's a groundswell or a seachange or whatever you want to call it in the general populace'sattitude to the magnitude and obviousness of this behaviour

I doubt there will be a shitstorm, Catholicism counts for fuck all in the UK

I don't think you have to care about Catholicism to get worked up about the visit of a Pontiff that enthusiastically reps for child abusers.

Maybe, but GBP just not interested in the Pope

That's the stage of any relationship where the rejection really starts to sting- maybe he'll be outside Buckingham with a ghetto blaster lashin out the gregorian chants

General attitude will be "None of our business" I reckon

ie protestants

(reading michael palin's biographies atm, got that kind of english middle class protestant outlook ont he brain maybe)

We should be interested, xp, isn't it gonna cost £12m pounds? Instead we'll all get angsty about some council spending a couple of grand on a trip to Blackpool.

Anyway, won't he just be going places he'll be welcome: Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, quick trip to London to meet the enemy Queen

Yeah Glasgow's famous for loving the old Popes :/

You could characterise it as a love/hate relationship

This article from last year is great...right from the url
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/09/24/second-coming-115875-21696429/

Those who may voice their objections to Benedict's state visit could include Harry Potter fans, rock fans, Jews, gays...

http://www.papalvisitstore.com/images/biglogotee.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VITm934BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

interest in gossip > interest in catholicism

newman's beatification won't detract from that

at least half of catholics in scotland come from the glasgow area, the rest of the area hates him but i doubt many will bother to protest

And guess where's he's going first in the UK?

That big airport in Paisley?

fucking really outraged by this

not surprised I guess but - fuckin - you always wish the church would do the right thing for once

Diarmuid Martin, as I said- He's really been tryin over here. This refusal to accept the resignations is a slap on the wrist for him personally, as he had to push very hard to even get that much.

But yeah, it's incredibly hard to read exactly what Benedict thinks he's getting form this move.

Either in real world politics- it's a spurning of an easy out, mitigation, etc

Metaphysical my-rules-are-handed-down-directly-from-god- stfu pope, they didn't help abused kids.

essentially, it's a hell of a senseless 'fuck you' to everyone on the side of ... good?

It is believed that Senior Vatican figures are worried about the possible “domino effect” that could occur from this current set of tendered resignations and this may have influenced the pontiff’s decision.

how in the fuck are you 'concerned' about a 'domino effect' where these fuckers resign? HOW IS THAT FUCKING PROBLEM?

yeah -- what about the "domino effect" of pedophiles recognizing a safe haven for their outrages when they see one? for Christ's sake

they're worried thousands of other ones have to resign all over the world. they dont give a shit about doing the right thing. these men of the cloth have lost their way. Still, they will get judged properly one day if what they believe in actually happens.

The biggest worry Benedict has lately is the insiduous threat of humans with breasts getting their feet in the door of ministering the word of Christ.

Again- this fucking guy.

I mean one of the worst things about being an ex-Catholic is that it's just really really hard to fully wash your hands of the whole deal - if you could just go, OK, you know what, that's an irredeemable snakepit of horror, everybody needs to gtfo now, but there's always this hope of people righting the ship. vain ridiculous hope I think if we're being realistic but you know what the fuck. all those generations of kids fucked up by these people and the best they can do is a vague "the Church grieves for victims but isn't about to actually make anybody bear any consequences, except the children of course, gotta shoulder your burden gracefully"

this fucking Vicar of Christ

well, suffer them, y'know? xp

that's the beauty of the afterlife- what you go through in this world is a downpayment.

they're doing those kids a favour, when you think about it.

any actual practising Catholics posting in the thread or all we all ex-ones doomed?

i beat catholicism before i beat super mario world

I went to mass a few times year before last when I was going through hard times & I have been known to still pray the rosary even though I have no faith to speak of. old habits and comforts die hard & painfully.

man do i hate these fuckers

i can slip into it as needs be, funerals, weddings, christenings, the usual. it's a social necessity that i don't have to rail against or anything. most of our priests have been stand-up guys, tbh.

Nothing wrong with praying, even if it's out of habit as a kid. But i cant say I've ever said the rosary since school.

yes, some priests we've had have been great guys. Im still shocked the one we had in the late 80s was a pedo. Funnily enough my mum didn't like him much, but she had no idea what he had done in the 1970s. It's disgusting he never went to jail.

you can't go to jail for a sin silly- you're thinking of actual crimes. lol.

priests are like celebrities

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qIv--4bRQ6M/SwvKuE6HYRI/AAAAAAAAAGs/RiY0HVJUn-I/s1600/elvis3.gif

"my knob was only resting there"

I mean one of the worst things about being an ex-Catholic is that it's just really really hard to fully wash your hands of the whole deal - if you could just go, OK, you know what, that's an irredeemable snakepit of horror, everybody needs to gtfo now, but there's always this hope of people righting the ship.

a lot of ppl who move to the periphery/outside of the church still feel committed to some dream of how the institution could be even when their whole ideology has been reworked, but catholics in particular seem to be stuck in orbit. ppl like mary grey have some good ideas about the church as a social institution in the community, but their commitment to that gets fudged w/ the appalling attitudes higher up, I would like ppl to assert the independent value of their churches over The Church, but thats prob my non-conformist background

big proposed boycott of mass on sun 26th september in protest of the unacknowledged role of women in the church is making big news over here. could turn into a general protest encompassing sexual abuse and the response to it as well.

i doubt ppl will actually pay heed to this

ppl who go to mass, or ppl who don't?

why does anyone even bother to be Catholic anymore

eh i don't know too many that hit 17 and decided to 'go for it' man?

ppl who go to mass.

i dunno about that- lol media, but it's gathering quite a bit of pace in the media

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n16/colm-toibin/among-the-flutterers

this is good

It'll be interesting to see what happens with this strike thing. Most of the people who still attend Mass have a lot invested in their Catholic identity - especially the generations born before 1970 or so (to pick an arbitrary year). My parents, and as far as I can see most of their peers, go to Mass every Sunday, even though they happily endorse positions contrary to teaching on most of the controversial issues and will criticise the handling of the abuse scandals at every opportunity. As has been pointed out upthread, people often accept a disconnect between appreciating the church as it manifests at a local level - Mass every Sunday, good priests - and scorning the politics and power games of the higher levels of the Catholic hierarchy.

At a family event a few days ago I observed a conversation in which my father declared to a group of middle-aged solid Catholics that the current Pope is "insane", and everyone agreed. They also discussed the strike in approving terms. But I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if any of them do strike, if only for the reason that their current relationship with the Church basically seems to ignore the higher-ups that are the target of the strike.

wau @ that LRB piece. unfortunately i lack the nerve to forward it to all my still-practicing irish-armerican catholic relatives.

My dad and his sister, who have been devout Catholics their entire life and never disagree with anything emanating from throughout the Church, have passed on the opportunity to come down and attend the Pope's mass in Glasgow. I think, after 70 years, my dad's finally starting to see that what he gets on a spiritual and personal level from it does not necessarily translate throughout the Church. It will never take his faith away from him, but I couldn't have imagined a few years ago that he would pass up the opportunity to participate in a Papal visit.

Ogmor OTM about the being stuck in orbit thing, basically.

at least half of catholics in scotland come from the glasgow area, the rest of the area hates him but i doubt many will bother to protest

FWIW, I'd take my dad (and others like him) not attending the Papal Mass as a form of protest, it's not always about wielding pitchforks and twatting about outside Bellahouston Park with Jack Glass and Ian Paisley leading the crowds in a rendition of No Pope Of Rome. There have been a massive amount of tickets returned, and despite feeble "but it might be raining" noises, I can't believe the majority of people wanting to attend a Papal Mass would be put off by a bit of drizzle and a queue for the portaloos.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/pope-mass-briefs-are-returned-1.1045294

(quick sums show pfunkboy is claiming that over one and a half million people actively hate the Pope. I don't know anyone with much more than a "meh" to contribute about him and his visit, tbh, perhaps I should be thankful that I don't get out more)

seandalai kinda nails the disconnect btwn everyday mass and 'THE CHURCH'.

Yet more good news for the Catholic Church

those guys!

If they're not fiddling with kids, they're blowing them up, it's one thing after another with those guys

From the Guardian report:

An NIO official wrote back a week later confirming that the secretary of state, Willie Whitelaw, had held a meeting with Cardinal Conway, the head of the Catholic church in Ireland, and: "The cardinal said that he knew that the priest was a very bad man and would see what could be done. The cardinal mentioned the possibility of transferring him to Donegal."

A very bad man!

A terrible man for the nail bombing

Mr Shillington said he would "prefer a move to Tipperary". Tipperary is about 200 miles from the border.

It's a long way to Tipperary, it's a long way to go

http://web4.twitpic.com/img/162330200-fc0c12ffc51e71e7d2241ee09298924e.4c90d160-full.jpg

My mum doesnt like crowds, so she never went in 1982 and wont go now. But she wont listen to any criticism of the church at all. She refuses to listen.

londond shows sold out at a fiver a ticket, demand for the pope is highly price elastic. who knew?

“As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century...”

this dude is amazing

You don't get to be pope without a certain talent for inflexibility

hell of a welcoming committee

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/818963/1224279045776.jpg

tho wtf lawrie sanchez is doing there i dont know

this fucking guy
this fucking guy
this fucking guy
this fucking guy
this fucking guy
this fucking guy
this fucking guy

This Pope is pretty much the worst troll ever. "Sorry about the child abuse btw this is how Nazi Germany started". 15 suggest bans on his first post, guaranteed.

i didnt know Marcello was the pope!

Interesting how this has become the default thread for talking about Catholicism.

I <3 this Pope because he's doing a lot to kill off some of my lingering ex-Catholic sentimentalism

Why haven't Tatchell, Dawkins and Fry all linked arms and tried a citizen's arrest? Would expect the Pope's security is less likely to thump you than Mugabe goons.

More likely to hang you off a bridge with masonic symbols stuffed up your arse later on tho

I <3 this Pope because he's doing a lot to kill off some of my lingering ex-Catholic sentimentalism

― aerosmith: live at gunpoint (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Thursday, 16 September 2010 21:02 (41 minutes ago)

haha quite

isn't some BANTER expected when he comes to london?

john paul presented a jolly charismatic face of child rape denial.

this guy is like fucking weekend at benedicts

"The Queen gave the pope a set of modern prints of Hans Holbein the Younger's portraits of England's first Protestant monarchs"

lol zing

hahaha nice

was going to say "lol burn" but thought better not

john paul presented a jolly charismatic face of child rape denial.

He seemed so beatific and kindly when he was systematically covering up the widespread child abuse.

Yeah, I'm warming to Ben 16 because i'm so sick of hearing about how great JP II was when in reality he was a reactionary cunt

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg36/scaled.php?tn=0&server=36&filename=ve5y.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

STADIUM MASS!

hmm i dunno what you expect from the head of the roman catholic church, tbh. i'm always surprised by vehement hatred of any of them for their conservative political/social views, as if great social change was one of the expectations of the incumbent.

that looks like it could take off at glasto tbf

He totally jumped into the crowd at the end, I heard.

Eavis is a bit of a god-botherer, don't put that idea into his head.

He totally jumped into the crowd at the end, I heard.

Went down into the pit to distribute communion to all the pretty girls in the front row.

He totally jumped into the crowd at the end, I heard.

And nobody caught him

they held that pose, then an absolute scorching bassline kicked in, PB launches into grindcore mass in latin

Compulsory mass at Glastonbury each day of the festival sounds like a great idea.

Wow, the Polyphonic Spree have a tribute band already?

hang on, that's not a real person on that cross is it?

Five held over papal terror alert http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11346001

oh dear, "The men are not British nationals." daily mail should be a good'un tomorrow.

think they may be irish?

Islams, maybe.

tho maybe that's because i saw it on the irishtimes site, cos i don't see any evidence of that anywhere now i look

oh dear, "The men are not British nationals." daily mail should be a good'un tomorrow.

― The referee was perfect (Chris), Friday, September 17, 2010 2:47 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

yeah coz they'd go easy if it were brits

has anyone tried to egg benedict yet?

Extreme Noise Terror
Papal Terror
Terrorvision

xps

well, yeah, relatively at least

I'd be more surprised if the Pope came to Britain and there wasn't at least one plot to kill him.

well yeah, that's true

Wouldn't it be great if a couple of Vatican officials requested Anglican asylum, like North-Korean athletes?

radio news says 'algerian origin'

"Five held over papal terror alert" + not British nationals = I thought this would be about cardinals smuggling explosives into the country under their robes

The five men, all street cleaners in Westminster... all worked for Veolia Environment Services, a major contract cleaning company that does work for Westminster Council.

Fuggin' Tory councils privatising local services, putting us (and the Pope) at risk

when the robocop style corporate world takeover happens, veolia will be one of the prime candidates imo.

Olympics should be fun, eh?

Surprised the Pope has entered really.

Street cleaners, window cleaners, dustbinmen... who will be trying to murder us I wonder?

ever notice how clean everything looked in the 'matrix' world- PROPAGANDA

has anyone tried to egg benedict yet?

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:49 (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

omg if this happens i am buying the next days paper and framing it. well, assuming a paper uses teh obvious pun headline and not something 'evil muslims jihadi popemobile with eggs' shit.

"NOW DAIRY PRODUCTS HAVE NO RESPECT FOR AUTHORITY"

NOW THEY'RE ASSAULTING POPE WITH FOREIGN EGGS WITH YOUR TAXES

Egging the Pope might be popular with the GBP

Egging any figure of authority is popular with the GBP.

THROWERS EGGS COMMUNICATED

not if the eggs are halal xp

good work NickB

4.20pm:
BREAKING NEWS: The pope's astronomer would be willing to baptise an alien, he confirmed today. Brother Guy Consolmagno, who is speaking at the British science festival at Aston university, Birmingham, tomorrow, said any intelligent creature living anywhere in space should be recognised as one of God's children – "no matter how many tentacles it has".

Consolmagno, who was interviewed by John Crace for the Guardian in 2006, said he would not force the catholic faith on an extraterrestrial being, however.

Speaking to PA, the papal astronomer said any intelligent aliens living elsewhere in the universe should be considered God's children, no matter what they look like.

"Going back to the Middle Ages, the definition of a soul is to have intelligence, free will, freedom to love or not to love, freedom to make decisions," he said.

"Any entity – no matter how many tentacles it has – has a soul."

In an interview Consolmagno admitted to being a science fiction fan – which he said got him into astronomy – and said he would be willing to baptise an alien, but "only if they asked".

Consolmagno, whose appearance at the British Science Festival is unrelated to Pope Benedict XVI's state visit, said: "I'd be delighted if we found life elsewhere and delighted if we found intelligent life elsewhere..

"God is bigger than just humanity. God is also the god of angels."

lols

douglas adam lols

"Any entity – no matter how many tentacles it has – has a soul."

Has Paul der Orakel-Krake had an audience with the Holy Father yet? If he meets Bono, he'd meet anyone surely.

the vatican observatory is a totally amazing place btw. they run a summer school every year and it's basically the top 20 young astronomers in the world, and these people go on to do great things. so there's that. still, bunch of kiddy-fiddlers.

how many tentacles does god have, i wonder

http://www.salon.com/ent/comics/this_modern_world/2010/09/14/this_modern_world/story.jpg

Oh yeah, about those terrorists that were arrested: based on an overheard conversation that could be construed as a threat, no proof whatsoever has been found, police bracing themselves for when they let them in without charge. Expect "hey, we didn't chase them in plainclothes with guns and shoot them seven times in the head when they ran away this time, you should be grateful we've improved so much" excuses.

http://guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/17/pope-visit-terror-police-arrests-street-cleaners

For "in" read "go" (thx, phone spell help)

this roscommon incest/abuse/neglect case has me in bits. nasty, sinister links to right-wing catholic group preventing social wervices intervention. jesus it's too early to be reading this shit.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mother-from-hell-is-guilty-of-incest-1609693.html

“Article 41
1. 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.
2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.”

cheers lads, thanks for that

… what are those rights supposed to be?

synopsised details/timeline here. detached but unpleasant reading, be warned.

how can anyone stand over this. 16 fucking years of it.

j. that vagueness would probably have been very deliberate.

there's vagueness and then there's absolute opacity.

what else are you supposed to do in roscommon?

gtfo out of roscommon. see 'worst irish county' thread for confirmation of that i guess.

worse case coming

god help me but i have a feeling this one, which apparently will be the nadir of irish state child protection revelations, involved kids that i went to school with.

A 1997 letter from the Vatican warned Ireland's Catholic bishops not to report all suspected child-abuse cases to police — a disclosure that victims' groups described as "the smoking gun" needed to show that the church enforced a worldwide culture of covering up crimes by pedophile priests.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/01/18/world/europe/AP-EU-Ireland-Catholic-Abuse.html?_r=1&src=twt&twt=nytimes&pagewanted=print

documentary on creepy irish pedo-priest and the church that helped him

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7745088455537169028#

Is there a more general "The Catholic Church is a bunch of fucking perverts" thread?

Vatican confirms report of sexual abuse and rape of nuns by priests in 23 countries

Most of the abuse has occurred in Africa, where priests vowed to celibacy, who previously sought out prostitutes, have preyed on nuns to avoid contracting the Aids virus.

Confidential Vatican reports obtained by the National Catholic Reporter, a weekly magazine in the US, have revealed that members of the Catholic clergy have been exploiting their financial and spiritual authority to gain sexual favours from nuns, particularly those from the Third World who are more likely to be culturally conditioned to be subservient to men.

The reports, some of which are recent and some of which have been in circulation for at least seven years, said that such priests had demanded sex in exchange for favours, such as certification to work in a given diocese.

In extreme instances, the priests had made nuns pregnant and then encouraged them to have abortions.

The US article was based on five documents, which senior women from religious orders and priests have presented to the Vatican over the past decade. They describe a particularly bad situation in Africa. In a continent devastated by Aids, nuns, along with early adolescent girls, are perceived by some as safe sexual targets. The reports said that the church authorities had done little to tackle the problem.

The Vatican reports cited countless cases of nuns forced to have sex with priests. Some were obliged to take the pill, others became pregnant and were encouraged to have abortions. In one case in which an African sister was forced to have an abortion, she died during the operation and her aggressor led the funeral mass. Another case involved 29 sisters from the same congregation who all became pregnant to priests in the diocese.

I'm guessing if there is a general "The Catholic Church is a bunch of fucking perverts" thread this will already have been posted on it, but if not here is an amazingly wtf report on paedophilia in the church from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

http://mirandaceleste.net/2011/05/24/a-worthless-and-dangerous-report/

including the definition of paedophilia they're working with:

"Media reports about Catholic priests who sexually abused minors often mistakenly have referred to priests as pedophiles. According to the DSM IV-TR, pedophilia is characterized by fantasies, urges, or behaviors about sexual activity with a prepubescent child that occurs for a significant period of time. Yet, the Nature and Scope data indicated that nearly four out of five minors abused were at least eleven years old at the time of the abuse. Though development happens at varying ages for children, the literature generally refers to eleven and older as an age of pubescence or postpubescence (53)."

nah we ain't paedophiles we only have sex with eleven-year-olds.

ya but they're just sayin in fairness

damning reports released yesterday in relation to the systemic cover-up of abuse in the cloyne diocese in cork.

www.irishtimes.com will get the info if that's your thing.

In the US, some of the money the church collected ostensibly for charitable causes was diverted to their own legal defense. Beyond revolting.

nice to see the church taking it seriously at last

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0718/breaking9.html

'Congregations are, undrrstandably, unclear as to why they should be held responsible for the costs of the Ryan Commission etc'

^ seriously

'despite warnings from the congregation...that the nature of the scheme (claims for compensation of abuse victims) would inevitably attract many more. Yet we, the religious are being held responsible for this miscalculation'

Fair enough lads, sorry that ye abused more kids than ye were letting on in 2002, our bad huh.

american churches also buy sex abuse insurance

are these fuckos really for real?

But Bishop Connors said not even revelations by Detective Sergeant Kevin Carson that 26 young men had killed themselves after being abused by priests and brothers in Ballarat convinced him that more would be learnt from an inquiry.
''I think we've learnt a lot of things about what is appropriate … [and] not appropriate behaviour,'' Bishop Connors said.
''I think people are very well informed nowadays as to what's inappropriate approaches from a male.''
While conceding the abuse of children was wrong, he said that in the past it had not always been clear to everyone what was inappropriate behaviour.
''In the past a lot of ignorance was there on the part of lots of people. Parents didn't understand, sometimes bishops didn't understand. We have no excuse now.''
As to whether there was an excuse when Ridsdale and Best were abusing boys, Bishop Connors said he did not know.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/suicide-inquiry-wont-shed-light-bishop-20110802-1i9yc.html#ixzz1VCEyRsHt

i think we're clear now, lads? Are we all clear now? Grand lads, we'll leave it at that so. Thanks lads.

Yes - he raped a nine-year-old in his office, and the boy thought he was going to die. His monstrosities spanned twenty years and he's hardly an isolated case, but that's all in the past now. We can't really live in the past.

Seriously how can some of these bishops sleep at night with the bullshit paving-over they do, they should read Luke 17:2 and then buy millstones in bulk

tbf they probably knew luke back-to-front when they were taking the exams, but cmon how often do you dip into yr sleevenotes from 'get your wings' nowadays?

This can't possibly be . . . I mean, can I just . . . what the everloving fuck?

The Catholic Church's leading exorcist priest asserts that a Vatican employee's daughter thought to be buried in a mob boss's tomb was kidnapped for Vatican sex parties, reports Nick Pisa of the Daily Mail.

Father Gabriel Amorth, who was ordained in 1954 and has carried out more than 70,000 exorcisms, made the claim to Italian newspaper La Stampa as police examine the contents of mobster Enrico De Pedis's tomb for clues about the 1983 disappearance of 15-year-old Emanuela Orlandi.

Father Amorth, 85, noted that an archivist at the Vatican previously admitted to recruiting girls for parties and told La Stampa newspaper the he believes that Orlandi "ended up in this circle" and that the "case of sexual exploitation" led to her murder followed by "the hiding of her body," according to the Daily Mail.

Father Amorth also said that "diplomatic staff from a foreign embassy to the Holy See" were also involved.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/catholic-churchs-chief-exorcist-priest-says-missing-girl-kidnapped-for-vatican-sex-parties-2012-5?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+businessinsider+%28Business+Insider%29#ixzz1vbqavGLg

that is a lot of exorcisms even for 58 years

4 a day

he sounds nuts tbph

do the vatican even acknowledge/name exorcists?

Some of those exorcisms were probably pretty casual, just a quick flick of holy water, a "the power of christ compels you" and boom, off to the next one. You can hammer out a couple dozen a day.

i'd reckon he's counting multiple demons in a single host there too, there's a lotta fat in those figures for sure.

'legion, i cast thee OUT'

*enters '30' into ledger, snickers, heads for golf course*

Yes the Vatican appoints exorcists. It is an option for Catholics, generally a last resort. Skepticism regarding exorcism is acceptable, IME.

i know they appoint em, but i dunno do they ever get named or acknowledged (ie i'd be kinda sceptical about this guy being 'that exorcist priest everyone knows about')

Gabriele Amorth (born 1 May 1925) is an Italian Roman Catholic priest and an exorcist of the Diocese of Rome who claims to have cleansed tens of thousands of people of evil spirits. Controversially, he believes that practising yoga is satanic and that both it and JK Rowling's Harry Potter books lead to evil.

good start

In 1990, he founded the International Association of Exorcists and was president until he retired, at 75, in the year 2000. He is now honorary president for life of the association.[3]

Amorth's favorite film is The Exorcist. He thinks that it is substantially exact and based on a true story, although the special effects are exaggerated. In an interview with the London Sunday Telegraph that Father Gabriele Amorth stressed that "People need to know what we do.

yes, yes, go on

ps he only started exorcisms in 1986 nakh

What even more hilarious is how the even the comments section for that story devolves into an anti/pro Obama dust-up.

and JK Rowling's Harry Potter books lead to evil.

feeling this

Wow, I'm lost for words.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/23/cardinal-keith-o-brien-accused-inappropriate

Gonna need our own Scottish thread soon
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21715473

hardly, 20 is appendix-to-the-irish numbers at best, maybe just change thread title to 'celtic'

most in this thread are scottish anyway right enough

I do wonder if the floodgates are going to open though

If the experience of the church in other countries is any indication, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

I was an altar boy, no paedos either thankfully but when we moved to prestwick in '83(and i had long stopped being an altar boy as i didnt want to do it again in another parish where things might be done deliberately), after a few years the parish got a new priest, and a few years after we moved to Hamilton in '91, the daily record had a story about how that priest had been found to have abused kids in the 1970s in Irvine. I dont know if he ever went to jail or anything as he had been shipped off to the home for paedophile priests in canada. Makes you wonder why he got moved to our parish in the first place. I bet they knew what he'd done, and just moved him 5 miles.
Makes me hate the church so much more than i already did. Though I feel sorry for the genuine priests , it must really hurt them to get tarred with the same brush. But those who covered it all up are scum and it's disgusting that they never get prosecuted.

I'm staggered that none of the people in this report wont get named or prosecuted. Those who covered it up must run right to the top of the church and government.

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Thursday, May 21, 2009 2:51 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Here he is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23459459
The Daily Record exposed him twenty years ago and I'm amazed he wasn't charged then (He was supposedly sent to Canada) . It turns out Bishop Mo even bought him a house here to live in. Disgusting.

Fuck you bishop mo you piece of shit for covering all this up.

Dirty beast

(I thought this was Glasgow RS not Cockney RS tbh - it's old school anyway, i.e. long before any of this was uncovered)

the priest at my childhood church here in California, I learned recently, was accused; but only by one person, and it didn't go any further than that. He was removed from work, not sure where he is. I find it personally a bit hard to believe but you never know. Disappointed if it is true.

tbh i woulda thought the same about father moore but it was true. You really never know.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23566192

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037p6h2 if anyone wants to watch the program about it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23483307

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2013/09/clergy-abuse/

This is insane.

Wehmeyer left, but circled back twice.

lolllllll

taken from broadsheet but relevant imo

Yesterday, Children’s Minister Frances Fitzgerald published the Children First Bill which will make it mandatory for professionals, including priests, to report situations where they believe children are at risk.

Further to this, retired parish priest Fr Gearoid O Donnchu spoke to Chris O’Donoghue on Newstalk and explained why he won’t break the seal of confession under any circumstance.

Mr O’Donoghue started by asking Fr O Donnchu how long he had been a priest.

Gearoid O Donnchu: “Since 1957, so 57 years.”

Chris O’Donoghue: “So I’m guessing in that time you’ve heard thousands of confessions.”

O Donnchu: “I’d say so yes, at least. Many thousands.”

O’Donoghue: “Father, in those confessions have people ever confessed a crime to you?”

O Donnchu: “That’s not a question I can answer.”

O’Donoghue: “Ok. The reason I was asking about that is because of what is envisaged in the Child First, the Child First legislation which we got a look at but we’ve known a little bit about beforehand. And it is envisaged it would be a law (sic) not to report a crime. And say if a crime is about abuse of a child or neglect of a child was told in confession. What’s your reaction?”

O Donnchu: “As far as I’m concerned what I hear in confession, I have not heard.”

O’Donoghue: “Even if that is about a crime?”

O Donnchu: “Even, no matter how bad it is.”

O’Donoghue: “But what if it’s about something that’s ongoing?”

O Donnchu: “I would advise the person that they should make it known publicly or come to me outside of confession. But anything I hear in confession, it’s as if I have not heard it.”

O’Donoghue: “Ok, but Father, do you realise why some people would be angry with that stance? Given that, potentially, people could be at risk. You could be hearing about people that are at risk?”

O’Donnchu: “Yes, but if somebody comes to confession, they come with the understanding that what they say is entirely privileged, there’s no mention of it, ever.”

O’Donoghue: “But I deduce from that though the seal of confession takes precedence over the law?”

O’Donnchu: “The seal of confession takes precedence over everything.”

O’Donoghue: “Even another person’s safety?”

O’Donnchu: “Even my own safety. If someone came and told me that they poisoned the wine I was going to use for Mass, I would still use it.”

O’Donoghue: “But Father, in the incidences of, and I don’t know, I mean, obviously, I’m not a priest so I don’t know how commonplace it is but presumably people who are doing bad things have guilty conscience and, if they are Catholic, they might try to ease that conscience by going to confession and those things could be ongoing like neglect or abuse of a child.”

O Donnchu: “That’s correct. And I think it’s the duty of the priest there to insist with the penitent to do something about the activities that we’re talking about.”

O’Donoghue: “Yes, you can insist in your advice or your counsel that, ‘you should go to the Gardaí’ or whatever that is.”

O Donnchu: “But if they don’t want to go then there’s nothing I can do about it.”

O’Donoghue: “Well there is, but you’re choosing not to?”

O Donnchu: “Oh definitely, I’m choosing not to.”

O’Donoghue: “Are you at peace with that Father, that you could be leaving people in danger?”

O Donnchu: “Completely.”

O’Donoghue: “You’re completely at peace with that?”

O Donnchu: “Completely at peace with it.”

O’Donoghue: “Some people might be livid to hear that.”

O Donnchu: “[laughs] That’s possible. When I say that I’d be completely at peace, I suppose that’s not quite a full statement. I would of course be worried, personally. But I haven’t the liberty to divulge that to a single person.”

O’Donoghue: “You would be breaking the law from now on?”

O Donnchu: “I wonder would I?”

O’Donoghue: “Well I suppose it’s more of a question, would you be breaking the law in what is envisaged here?”

O Donnchu: “I don’t know, I haven’t seen the law. But if the law says that what I hear in confession I should go to the guards with, then I’m prepared to break that.”

O’Donoghue: “Even if, at the core of the issue here, Father, is something that I genuinely believe you would believe is strongly in: protection of the child in all instance.”

O Donnchu: “Definitely, I would do everything I could to protect a child.”

O’Donoghue: “But not to break the seal…”

O Donnchu: “But not to break the seal of confession.”

O’Donoghue: “So you are keeping one thing above the protection of the child then?

O Donnchu: “I’m keeping one thing above the protection of myself, the child, the protection of anything.”

O’Donoghue: “But you see Father, in say, the analogy you gave about the wine, that’s personal choice, you’re choosing not to protect yourself in that instance. A child can’t choose, a child could be in a harmful environment and, as an adult, you now have essential information.”

O Donnchu: “In a way I don’t. The priest with whom he’s in confession has that information but that priest is not allowed to divulge that information to anybody. That’s the way, that’s the way I was educated, that’s the way I’ve lived, that’s the way I intend to continue to live, please God.”

O’Donoghue: “Father Gearoid, is there any, and I understand you won’t tell me instances of confession, but is there any working around this? I mean can you act, based on something that you have heard in confession, I don’t mean tip someone off, I don’t mean something that blunt but can you act to remove people from situations in your other duties.”

O Donnchu: “No.”

O’Donoghue: “You don’t do anything based on what you hear in confession?”

O Donnchu: “Not a thing.”

O’Donoghue: “Even if that is breaking the law from now on, that’s what you’re willing to keep doing?”

O Donnchu: “I’m not sure if it is breaking the law but if it is breaking the law, then I’m prepared to do that.”

He's following the Canon Law of his church and could/would in theory be excommunicated for breaking the Seal of Confession so I think the problem more with the higher law (in his eyes) that constrains him than that particular priest.

I'd be willing to bet good money he'd accidentally spill that wine.

Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

Can. 1388 §1. A confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; one who does so only indirectly is to be punished according to the gravity of the delict.

You'd hope our all new not as scary as the last guy Pope would have a look at that.

the logic is impeccable, pedophiles can trust priests and children can't

I can't even muster for this latest. nothing that comes out surprises, just glaze over tbh. but its absolutely horrific. also: no coverage that I can recall nationally, certainly nothing like what it should be.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/claim-of-800-childrens-bodies-buried-at-irish-home-for-unwed-mothers

saw it yesterday, and too horrible to draw any points from tbh except maybe that if you want inhumanity at its best then you gotta organize for it

http://www.thejournal.ie/tuam-mass-grave-babies-1488267-May2014/

“People aren’t really talking about the discovery,” she said. "People don’t seem shocked, I don’t understand. If two children were discovered in an unmarked grave, the news would be everywhere. We have almost 800 here.”

sense of collective guilt re: parents' and grandparents' values maybe?

definitely.

and I'm early 30s and went through the catholic school system and even though I spent the last 6-7 years avowedly atheist it still feels, at some level, something everyone here has complicit guilt for.

which is bullshit but yet...

I was actually thinking about that story the other day and was reminded of something mentioned in the Savita coverage. Someone mentioned how, if you read Irish papers over the years, you would eventually notice a "trend" of small pieces about dead infants being found in public places. Like these things are reported but it's almost accepted. And that was something we never really discussed as a culture.

That or the old sow who eats her farrow, idk idk idk.

yeah the collusion between the community, religious orders and the state over this means no-one is ever going to be held accountable for it

shrug the collective shoulders and go on

mass grave of 800 bodies found in rural Ireland India, authorities powerless to act

"oh that's shocking, oh imagine living somewhere awful like that"

It does feel like casually ignoring horrific shit is part of our M.O. as a people. I mean, if you had any other country with the amount of suspicious devices and bomb scares we have...

just speaking personally like

I have experience of the type of fella still doing that, and at least as far as the local type goes, he's beyond idiocy, in the main, and yknow there's a reason most of them are intercepted long before the device gets to where its going, or if it gets there it doesn't stand a chance of working

that said, I wouldn't have called it commonplace out west, is it that much more prevalent other than towards the north or at Quinn factories?

is there any sense at all from the media of "ah the Church has had enough of a battering these past couple of years, let's give them a break eh lads"?

idk, first thoughts are yes to that, and then there's definitely deference from the IT and the other broadsheets, and then the most depressing thought is that well, this isn't news anymore

i did wonder if there was some variation on "scandal fatigue" as well as the lingering deference in some quarters

mix of all three

also afaic nothing done. the church has been publicly broken but hasn't seen individuals brought to justice nor paid anything like restoration nor been anything less than begrudging or defiant in acknowledgement.

and it still controls education infrastructure.

so the fatigue is strengthened by a lack of any faith in the structures that should be formally moving against the legacy power, lending credence to the uneasy suspicions that change isn't coming quickly

multiple xps

I was thinking more towards the border, Dundalk and all that, but you get a bit of it in Dublin too.

north side is the new border hey

this story made me remember when a 15 year old girl in my class at my catholic school had a baby she intended to keep who was born with severe birth defects and died within hours, and hard adult voices said it was for the best. these were people who marched piously against abortion and didn't believe in birth control but they said with grim satisfaction that her cruel bereavement was for the best, as if god had done her a big favour.

in the long run we might all someday get those ppls learned and certain wisdom, but I hope not

Most talk seems to be geared around "hey let's build a memorial" rather than anything else :/

Since 1824 the Sisters of Bon Secours have brought compassion, healing, and liberation to those they serve.
Whether in healthcare, education or social services, in hospitals, clinics or parishes, in towns and cities or isolated villages, Bon Secours responds to a universal need: To provide to all who suffer a reason to live and a reason to hope.

Please note: this offer excludes infants abandoned by God because their mother was a whore

re lack of coverage of this domestically

chairman of rte board is director of the firm handling the nuns pr apparently

I thought RTE were covering it now? They seem to have a good bit on the site atm. Was just reading this > http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0606/622045-dail-children/

they are now! silence was deafening for days after tho

yeah, "now" obviously the keyword here. I have a lot of problems with them and their obvious slants and biases (and the ridiculous amount of airtime they gave to the 1ona crowd too).

I wanted to go into that more with kev there too.

the Iona/far right balance issue is a case of Irish establishment either believing that there is a silently majority out there cheering Iona on (not my experience but I won't discount it), that 'balance' requires a fifty-fifty share of coverage, airtime and moderation without regard to fact or reason (def don't discount this) or that fuckit, its better TV to have the most partisan loudmouths possible on there regardless of misrepresentation.

all options are profoundly depressing so I turn gladly to conspiracy tbph

so my dad just found out that his grandparents were his granduncle/aunt- his grandmother was packed off to Dublin to have the child and was on the boat to the states a fortnight later. she never saw her son again despite returning to Ireland twice for him.

she married in NYC, had 6 kids (including a supreme court judge?) and one of her grandchildren made contact with dad today to meet up and trade stories.

all because lol catholic church lol ireland lol 1911, giving kid to your brother to raise and leaving home forever was the better alternative.

hmm seems more likely a court of appeals judge, nm

well then, only the court of appeals you say. then he's hardly made a noise in the world at all.

ugh he's an anti death penalty campaigner imma call dad back tell him to call the whole thing off

my old parish priest back in the news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-34504729

I had an auntie who turned out be my half-sister. I got relegated to some foam on the floor for 4 years when she moved into our 2 bedroom house, it was an early lesson in dread lol catholicism for me :(

sort of on topic:p

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/14/cesnik-nun-murder-maskell_n_7267532.html

I am watching my national news service running a major story on a woman that was miraculously healed after visiting a shrine in my home county where the virgin mary appeared on a gable along with sundry others in 1879 and tear this fucking country down please

Knock? Easily the creepiest place in the country I’ve ever been to.

ive conducted housing interviews in day-long batches there and v noticeable strain of crazy vs the other six centres

Knock do some cracking holy water though, it might have cured me of the bollocking I got for greedily drinking a gulp of it once whilst "pooching" in the grown-up section of the childhood slum!

I didn't dare replace it with tap water lest i got struck down.