king of research

What is ILX good at? Looking up stuff on the internet. Also knowing stuff! Also being amazing.

What is needed is a competition! It is sort of based on the fashion contests, from Miss Bimbo. There is a casting round! If you make it through casting, you are in the competition! Then people are eliminated each round, until there is a winner! The winner will be Alba.

The skill is research, on the internet, which is fun!

Casting Round
To progress through this qualification round, you must post a city with a population between 400,000 and 500,000. Also a link, as a citation! The deadline is 9PM Tuesday. (Obviously it doesn't count if someone has posted the city before).

Here is an example:
According to wikipedia, Omaha has a population of 432,921.

stfu

Bristol has a population of 416,400

Sacramento is approx. 446,721.

Edinburgh has a population of 430,082 or 471,650, depending on which page of the wiki you go for.

why does this feel like a marketing ploy

benefit of doubt until proven wrong imo

oh - this will be short with only 3 people :(

i'll play even though i don't get it. cleveland has 438,042.

Oakland, CA has 401,489.

I don't see many linked citations on here.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFPopulation?_event=Search&_name=oakland&_state=04000US06&_county=oakland&_cityTown=oakland&_zip=&_sse=on&_lang=en&pctxt=fph

manchester with 458,100

mine is from wikipedia ok

Bratislava has a population of 428,672

Qualifiers for Round One:

LJ
JayMC
Emil.y
Harbl
King Kong Vs Godzilla
Call All Destroyer
Salsa Shark

In rounds one - albums are to be named!

The album must have: at least two songs with animals (not counting humans) in the title. But two songs must not have animals in the title, also, so people can't just post farmyard songs.

The albums must be cited, on the internet! If everyone succeeds in this, the contestant who succeeds last will be eliminated.

Here is an example!

Ha, that's quite easy. An Electric Storm - White Noise contains the songs 'Here Come the Fleas' and 'Firebird'.

Please provide citation for animal 'firebird'!

It contains the word 'bird' in it - a bird is an animal. Wiki's disambiguation page also lists birds with colourful plumage under firebird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebird. But if that's not good enough, then I can find another.

Aluminum Group, Pelo

1. Pussycat
3. Goodbye Goldfish, Hi Piranha
10. Sermon to the Frogs

http://www.amazon.com/Pelo-Aluminum-Group/dp/B00005171Z

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Loves_a_Nut

do i get to play if i answer both qns? i didn't see this last night

It contains the word 'bird' in it - a bird is an animal. Wiki's disambiguation page also lists birds with colourful plumage under firebird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebird. But if that's not good enough, then I can find another.

The second is more convincing! But... none of the birds on their individual pages say they are called firebirds, that I could see :(

(To be fair to UK and US sleep - if all 8 entries come in within 24hours, I will post a harder round instead of eliminating!)

Although I do think 'Firebird' is a valid entry, I can also propose Louis & Bebe Barron's Forbidden Planet, which contains the songs 'A Shangri-La in the Desert/Garden with Cuddly Tiger' and 'Robby Arranges Flowers, Zaps Monkey'. If you're not taking soundtracks, then you should really be more specific in your requests! (Also, it is an amazing record in its own right, I have actually never seen the film.)

That is good!

Excellent. I was actually holding another option in my hands just in case, but won't post it just on the offchance another entrant was hoping to use it.

szczecin, pop. 407,811

foxy brown, ill na na

1. intro - chicken coop
11. fox boogie

THE WHITE ALBUM

Y'all are thinking too hard.

The winner will be Alba.

lol @ this

Fuckit, I'm bored

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracruz,_Veracruz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feels

Anybody want to hit a bar trivia night?

PP, I wasn't thinking too hard at all. I listen to the White Noise and Louis & Bebe Barron albums quite a lot, whereas I actually had to strain to work out what the animal songs on The White Album were, even though on looking it up I see that there are four of them.

Also lolled at 'the winner will be Alba'.

And I am really quite bored too, and want another research question already.

Tokyo has a population of 562,402

Four of them?

eh, yeah.

iirc.

Illinois, by Sufjan Stevens

"The Black Hawk War, or, How to Demolish an Entire Civilization and Still Feel Good About Yourself in the Morning, or, We Apologize for the Inconvenience but You're Going to Have to Leave Now, or, 'I Have Fought the Big Knives and Will Continue to Fight Them Until They Are Off Our Lands!'"

and

"The Predatory Wasp of the Palisades Is Out to Get Us!"

bolding mine, for emphasis due to ridiculously long song titles.

forgot about the fourth one on Side 3, which is the best of the animal songs on that record.

The Magnetic Fields, 69 Love Songs. Disc 1 has Boa Constrictor, Chicken With its Head Cut Off, Let's Pretend We're Bunny Rabbits, and Absolutely Cuckoo.

Missed this till now.

The Hague: 445,279
Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway", "Fly on a Windshield", "Cuckoo Cocoon")

(if I'm disqualified, I'll play along for fun, like a horse with an unseated rider)

(if I'm disqualified, I'll play along for fun, like a horse with an unseated rider)

Me too.

Bradford - pop. 497,400 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford
Danielson - "Ships" ("Two Sitting Ducks" "My Lion Sleeps Tonight") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ships_(album)

Murcia (Spain) 433,850 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murcia
Patrick Wolf, Lycanthropy (Wolf Song, Pigeon Song) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycanthropy_(album)

Too late! But never mind it was fun.

Warren Zevon - Mutineer
Ajmer - India

I want to join too, if possible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallinn

Tallinn has 404 000 inhabitants.

http://www.discogs.com/Mouse-On-Mars-Autoditacker/master/15012

Autoditacker by Mouse on Mars has tunes called "X-Flies" and "Maggots Hell Wigs".

http://www.discogs.com/Infesticons-Gun-Hill-Road/release/49475

And if "X-Flies" aren't considered a proper animal, this album has "Tiger Theme" and "Monkey Theme".

Horse without rider is separate division; one out from each division each round. But, no new horses after deadline tonight, rider or not!

Ajmer link says 485,000 in 2001 - could be over 500,000 now?

animal collective - sung tongs

who could win a rabbit
we tigers

lol someone else used an animal collective album. they were just a shot in the dark on my part.

Same with my Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - never owned it but it was my first guess.

Round One is closed!

Division A:

JayMC
Emil.y
Harbl
King Kong Vs Godzilla
Call All Destroyer
Salsa Shark

LJ out (no entry)

Division B:

Lex Pretend
Alba
Omino
Tuomas
Ledge
Oilyrags

Ned Trifle out (485,000 is 2001 estimate, http://population-of.com/en/India/24/Ajmer/ say 517,000 in 2006)

OH SLAM NED TRIFLE!

Round Two! One will be out from each division.

This round is easy but competitive. You must find a book!

The title of the book is 'The *Adjective* *Noun* Of *Phrase*'. That will be easy - here is an example. But - the tiebreaker is publication date! It must be as old as possible - the most recent will go out, in each division. Please provide a citation, for your date!

Small:
*Adjective* must be an adjective, not gerund or contextual noun. So, 'The Diving Bell Of The Butterfly' - no good. 'The seven people of heaven-meeting', no good.
*Noun* can be a proper noun.
*Phrase* can be anything, even one word. It cannot be nothing!

I sort of wish I joined this at the beginning, instead of sneering derisively.

the red badge of courage, 1895.

"The Metaphysical Elements of Ethics" by Immanuel Kant, 1780

Full text on Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ikmee10.txt

Will a play do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Historical_Register_for_the_Year_1736

oops, for not of. Sorry.

does it have to be "the" or can it be "a"?

Here we go...

The Great Law of Subordination Considered (1724)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Defoe

Must be 'The'.

Oh! Deadline is 9PM, tomorrow. That is usual if not stated!

Can we add more entries if we're in danger of being the most recent?

ok well how about The Complete History of the Affairs of Spain by Jodocus Crull, 1707 http://books.google.com/books?id=W6g1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=toc

no

xp i think that would be unfair!

Harbl I do not have a problem with that! Otherwise every has to wait for 8.55 to post - no good.

The Black Kalendar of Aberdeen by James Bruce (first edition published 1840).

X(

Actually, scrub that. I'll go for

The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution by Roger Williams (1644).

Alba that is a pamphlet, not a book!

People refer to it as a book! On that page "The book was a disorganized mess"!

Oh! No, sorry, I looked it up! I didn't understand it was an extract.

It's 425 pages long!

ok i am going to wait until 8:30 pm tomorrow to see if i am the most recent. see what you've done?

btw what time zone's 9 pm?

btw Maps - I take it you were previously know as something else on ILX. Care to tell us?

Damn, that trumps my Increase Mather strategy...on to Plutarch!

Harbl otherwise no-one will post first! This way at least there will be placeholders?

It is 4PM EST, the deadline!

Do books with this format but in foreign languages count?

I'll go with Defoe as well, unless that's against the rules:

The Farther Adventures of Robinson Crusoe (1719)

Okay, I'm going for an early bid for victory, as I probably won't be around for nearer the deadline, with Robert Fabyan - The New Chronicles of England and France, 1516 (although wiki says 1515, the link provided here clearly states 1516).

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/18299

No date given, but author live 1214-1284, so THE BAR HAS BEEN RAISED, BITCHES.

Alrighty, how about The Old English Gospel of Nicodemus? 11th century.

Or, I'm sorry, this is much better, The Prime Tortoise of the Record Bureau? 1013.

I may well have to create an album called The Prime Tortoise of the Record Bureau now.

Okay, this is going to be my last one, very sorry for babbling but as I say, I won't be around tomorrow evening. Ecclesiastical History of the English People. Bede, circa 731.

It seems like the date we use should be the date that the book was first published with that title. The original text of Johnstone's Norwegian Account may have dated from the 13th C., but obviously Johnstone was the one that gave it that title, once he assembled the manuscripts into a publishable book. Similarly, I don't think anyone who was speaking Old English referred to their language as "Old English." Here it's referred to as the Old English Gospel of Nicodemus.

Fucking Wikipedia.
(sulks)

Yes - in Chinese there is no definite article! So needs to be when first translation was called that. English only is probably best & simplest rule!

1516 is good!

(still sulking)

The new rules are a shame, as I've just found a couple of good ones from various places in the BC years. Ah well, less reason for Ned to sulk.

I just broke the British Library catalogue search page.

louis de bernières, the troublesome offspring of cardinal guzman

Okay, my entry is The Very Horrific Life of Great Gargantua, Father of Pantagruel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantua_and_Pantagruel

It was first published in 1534:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Rabelais#Works_of_Rabelais

I'm not sure what year it was translated into English, but the original French title is La vie très horrificque du grand Gargantua, père de Pantagruel, so you can see that it follows the required *adjective* *noun* of *phrase* form. (Except that in the French grammar the order is *noun* *adjective* of *phrase*, but I hope this doesn't disqualify it.)

The prequel to Gargantua, which was published in 1532, has the English title The Horrible and Terrifying Deeds and Words of the Very Renowned Pantagruel King of the Dipsodes, Son of the Great Giant Gargantua, but since the original French title is Pantagruel roy des dipsodes restitué à son naturel avec ses faictz et prouesses espoventables, it doesn't fit the requirements here, and I have no idea when it was translated into English. Therefore my entry is the 1534 sequel.

"Very Horrific" is qualifier + adjective, does that count?

this is quite a tough challenge! my best so far:
The Scottish history of James the Fourth (1598)
http://www.luminarium.org/editions/jamesfourth.htm

I don't really know, maybe our game host can clarify?

(x-post)

In the case Gargantua is disqualified, my entry will be
The Merry Wives of Windsor, first published in 1602:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Wives_of_Windsor

Do quartos of Shakespearean plays really count as books?

Why not?

Anyway, unless the "very/"trés" disqualifies Gargantua, I'm still sticking to that.

this was harder than the ones before, but not v hard! i got mine by looking at my bookshelf but if that didn't work i'd've just looked up some detective novels - sounds like a classic crime fic title formulation.

Lex, did you notice the bit that contestant with the most recent book will lose? With a book published in 1992 you are most likely go out.

Way to help out the competition Tuomas...

ha i did not notice that, no :(

Reading the requirement properly is surely an essential element of being King of Research, or indeed King of Riderless Horses.

probably not eligible but this is the kind of title sadly lacking in literature nowadays

"The troublesome reign of John King of England, with the discovery of King Richard Cordelion's base son (vulgarly named, The Bastard Fauconbridge)" (1591 - http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/headers/0005.xml)

Why not?

Well, they're more folded sheets of paper.

The True Law of Free Monarchies (or, The Reciprocal and Mutual Duty Betwixt a Free King and His Natural Subjects) by James VI of Scotland, published 1598.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Law_of_Free_Monarchies

I don't think the requirement was that the book should be bound, otherwise we might question some other entries too.

King of lawyers.

Qualifier + Adjective - no good.

What about the Shakespeare then?

Ledge's - good.

What about "The Merry Wives of Windsor"? Is it valid?

It is hard to define a book! It says on wikipedia:

A quarto (also 4to or 4º) is a term in printing, referring to a page size common in books of the early modern era, especially at the cheaper end of the market

and M-W:

a book printed on quarto pages

Tuomas's is good!

is one person per division eliminated or one person overall?

also, which one of mine is good, the 1598 one or the 1591 one with all the extra crap at the end?

so many questions!

did we decide whether plays counted or not?

the fair maid of the inn, 1647, authorship uncertain

If a quarto counts, then a folio should, IMO.

Folios are generally collections though, right? Not sure about quartos.

Quartos of plays were bootleg transcriptions (at least in Shakespeare's case), printed on a single sheet that was folded twice, creating an eight page document.

Says you.

The secret history of Queen Zarah and the Zarazians, by Delarivière Manley, 1705

A quarto volume isn't necessarily (or usually) 8pp - the folded sheets ('gatherings') are bound up together to make a more substantial book. 'Quarto' just tells you how the gatherings are folded and gives you an idea of height & width. If it helps with adjudication, see Shaks quartos here . Won't look through them all, but guess they're about 64-120pp each (they do tend to get bound with other things - they were sold without covers I think).

That is helpful!

Merry Wives - good.

Ledge 1591 - good.

One from each division.

I retract my quarto objection. Thank you woofwoofwoof.

(I was thinking, blimey, the type must have been small)

All right, I'm going to update mine before the deadline:

The Vertuose Book of Distyllacyon of the Waters of All Maner of Hebres by Hieronymus Brunschwig (1527)

This is a book earlier published in German, but this is an English translation, so I think it should be OK.

(NB: National Library of Australia gives date as "1527 [i.e. 1528?]". Library of Congress gives date as c. 1530.

)

Right, fuck this, I'm going for

The New Booke of Iustyces of Peace by Sir Anthony Fitzherbert (1543)

Reproduction of the original in British Library.

not in their catalogue as far as i can see. bastuds.

It is, but Peace is Peas (also it says it's two years older).

not showing up in my search, damnit i definitely ain't the king of research.

found this though -
http://www.ilab.org/db/book843_15529.html
The Pleasant Historie of the Conquest of the Weast India, 1578

YEAH VERY PLEASANT I'M SURE.

Okay, this is the earliest book I could find: The fruytfull saynges of Davyd, published in London in 1509.

I tried to look for pre-1500 books that would meet the criteria, but it proved too difficult, so The Fruytfull Saynges of Davyd will be my entry.

Round closed!

Division A:

JayMC (1530)
Emil.y (1516)
Harbl (1707)
King Kong Vs Godzilla (1705)
Salsa Shark (1598)

out: Call All Destroyer(1895)

Division B:

Lex Pretend (I cannot find an edition of this pre: 1780! But surely there must be one? It appears as a part of the 1647 folio, but not as title of book?)
Alba (1543)
Omino (1780)
Tuomas (1509)
Ledge (1578)
Oilyrags (1738)

out: (Lex or Onimo - research ongoing)

I tried to look for pre-1500 books that would meet the criteria, but it proved too difficult

I searched the whole Bodleian and British Library collections of incunabula (pre 1501 books) with no joy.

Fair Maid appears again in 'a collection of novels' in 1720 but I am not sure it is the same play and it is still look not the title!

Here's a 1711 edition of Fair Maid.

Onimo - out!

Round three!

This round is pleasant, after competition of last time! You must find actor, and citation that he has been in films. You must find a professional sportsman, and citation for such.

Actor and sportsman must be anagrams. No tie-breaker - everyone who achieves will progress to 4!

Anagrams of each other?

Small:
Anagram must include some switching of letters, so Tom Cruise & Cruise Tom - no good!
Actor and sportsperson can be female.

Thanks for adding that rule, I was just about to post an actor and a sportsman with the same name.

Yes JayMC - thank you for Fair Maid also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jackson_(American_football)

John Jackson, a footballer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Johnson_(actor)

Jack Johnson, an actor.

As usually billed or full names? REAL names? STAGE names?

can they be dead or retired?

Usually billed, dead is fine!

when's the deadline? this one's hard. also are women allowed? not that that will make it any easier.

You could just take the easy way out like I did. It's still technically valid.

yeah i already have an idea, just trying to find a real actor with the name

ok here it is:

actor Robert Phillips http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0680732/
british olympic wrestler Phillip Roberts http://www.olympics.org.uk/beijing2008/News.aspx?id=2528

John Peterson (wrestler)
Peter Johnson (actor)

Kudos for anyone who can solve this without taking the easy route.

Boris Karloff - actor
Karl Borisoff - wrestler

sorry made that one up

Just for fun, Jack Johnson was also the name of a heavyweight champion boxer. And of course John Jackson is this fellow...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0413698/

(he is occassionally billed without his middle initial)

Onimo - out!

― Maps, Thursday, 11 June 2009 22:24 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Ah shit, after asking to be allowed extra submissions I went to the pub and didn't get round to looking up more titles.

I think lex should be out for failing to read the research requirement until Tuomas fucked things up for me kindly pointed out his oversight.

I might continue to be a riderless horse though, coz I like finding stuff.

Actor: Jean Sorel
Athlete: Jalen Rose

nice job

adam lias actor. ish.
sadam ali boxer.

Took the easy way out, but might revisit this over my lunch break.

Actor, John Michaelson

Track star, Michael Johnson

I've found this very hard, partially because I'm really hungover, partially because I hate sports and thus have no bank of names to work from. However, I have got one rubbish one:

Jason Kreis, sportsman
Jason Krise, actor.

I will carry on trying for a better one.

idk why, maybe cuz im really bored at work, but ive been thinking abt this a lot -- rod carew/drew carey are v. close

and yeah ive not tried to 'research' this at all. its more fun to just run thru names in my head

I hate sports

qft

cosign.

there is no imdb of sportspeople.

I mean, I'm sitting there like, I dunno "John Magicson"? Eventually I went with a list of people on the covers of Wheaties boxes.

Yeah, the only sport I follow is mma and so many of those guys are eastern european or brazilian...

Worried about Jason Krise not really counting as an actor despite his imdb page (his only listing is as an extra) so have got one that definitely counts now:

Leisel Jones, Australian swimmer
Leslie Jones, actress

idk why, maybe cuz im really bored at work, but ive been thinking abt this a lot -- rod carew/drew carey are v. close

I spent an embarrassingly long time on this, and I kept finding ones that were close but not quite.

For instance: Leon Lett = Lotte Len(ya)

there is no imdb of sportspeople.

That's why you have to come up with the sportsperson first, anagram the name, and see if it matches someone (anyone) in IMDB.

(riderless horse entry)

Peter Johnson (footballer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnson_(footballer)

John Peterson (actor)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2519647/ (Police officer #4 - a huge part!)

I notice that the rules say "citation that he has been in films" and my guy was only in one film so here's another (using the easy method)

Ben Peterson wrestler
Peter Benson actor

bah i found a tv actress who won't count :(

surprisingly hard - thought i'd found a clever easy route (chinese names) but EVEN THAT is proving fruitless

ok here's one with more than one film

David Johnson (Actor) http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0424899/
John Davidson (Hockey player) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Davidson_(hockey_player)

I suppose "films" could be like "the movies, daahhhling".

There were a few athletes whose names I thought would surely bear fruit, like Dan O'Brien or Elton Brand, but no dice. I was also bummed that there was no one in IMDB named Mike Ott (from Tom Kite) or Tom Kinsey (from Mike Tyson).

ha yeah the 1st thing i thought to do was use sports dudes with short names...i was actually watching golf yesterday as thinking abt this and tom kite wuz 1 of the 1st guys 2 come 2 mind

Oh yeah, I had no luck with Ernie Els, either.

Not just short names, but low-Scrabble-count names.

michaela ince, tennis player
michael caine, actor

bizarrely i thought of the tennis player first :/

Nice.

Lex can you provide a better citation to show Michaela Ince is a professional tennis player?

One movie - good!
Extra only - no good.

Yeah, I thought the guy who was an extra wouldn't be allowed. My other entry's okay, though, right?

if you click on "activity" you can see the pro tournaments she's played...and her brother's website refers to her as a professional: http://www.davidincetennis.net/about.html

looking at her results i wouldn't advise her to stay professional for long though

Thank you Lex.

Emil.y, yes.

Round Closed!

Division A:

JayMC
Emil.y
Harbl
King Kong Vs Godzilla

Salsa Shark out!

Division B:

Lex Pretend
Alba
Tuomas
Ledge

Oilyrags out!

We're going to break for the weekend, right?

i'll post the one i found just 4 kicks now:

lorne scott
scott rolen

Round four is long, for weekend - you have 9PM Monday!

You must find two people born on same day, same year. Give citation! You must then make conclusive case they never met. 'Why would they' not enough, must be 100% castiron as possible, maybe they met on holiday when they were children? Maybe they spoke briefly when travelling in opposite directions, on road? Least convincing case, out.

Can one of them be me?

Clever idea! But makes it too easy, I think? Both must meet notability requirements, say.

Okay, just wanted to be sure. Would have made the cast-iron "of course they've never met" thing a lot easier, though. Of course, I could always argue that I am notable.

how notable is notable...

Multiple reviews of Adam Gopnik's Angels and Ages note that Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln (both b. Feb. 12, 1809) never met:

Financial Times:
"The two men, who never met, had two other factors in common, one fanciful and one tragic."

San Francisco Chronicle:
"They lived and worked at approximately the same time, albeit on different continents, and were aware of each other, though they never met."

The Nation:
Darwin and Lincoln never met or corresponded, and they distinguished themselves in very different endeavors.

Okay, I have one, though not as good as jaymc's.

January 2nd, 1938. Ian Brady and Hans Herbjørnsrud. Let me take a breath and I'll explain why they've never met.

Tricky! Perhaps maybe: 'Any notability accepted, but if friend or relation to the contestant, disqualified'?

Firstly, Brady was not in a position to travel to Norway, as he was in and out of prison from the age of 13. Herbjornsrud did not begin writing until the 1970s, and is described as not being much of a traveller, so it is unlikely he would have come to the UK and accidentally met Brady before he was a distinguished author and Brady was imprisoned for murder. Such a meeting would have undoubtedly been recorded, however, if one googles their names together, the only sites that come up are 'famous birthdays' and their variations.

HOWEVER, I've just found a better one. The UK and US oldest men, Henry Allingham and George Francis (deceased 2008), never met. Citation here.

Oops, they were both born on June 6, 1896.

louis barnett, chocolatier, and victoria climbié, murder victim, both born on 2 november 1991. victoria spent less than a year in the UK before she died aged 9 in london, at which age louis was being raised in a small staffordshire village. louis was brought up in an environment in which, as a child, he could aspire to researching champagne and chocolate from a young age (and thence go on to a number of young entrepreneurship awards, deals with waitrose aged 15 and so on). while of course his parents could have taken him to london in the 10-month period that victoria was alive there, i find it unlikely that they'd have encountered her in the various housing estates she lived and was neglected on.

Okay, excuse me if this sounds kinda morbid, but this is the best case I could come up with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

Elisabeth Fritzl was born in April 6th 1966. She is the daughter of Joseph Fritzl, who kept her locked in the family cellar and abused her for 24 years. According to her biography she lived in the small town of Amstetten, Austria for her whole life, except for a period of three weeks in 1983 when she ran away from home and went into hiding in Vienna. After she was found by the police she was returned to her parents in Amstetten. In 1984 she was locked in the cellar of her parents' house, and never got out of there until after 24 years in 2008, when the whole morbid story came into daylight. After this, she and her five children spent some time in a local clinic, where they were shielded from any outside enquiries. After that they lived in a hide-away home, but were found by the paparazzo and moved to another, anonymous village in Austria, where they are currently living.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Man_Kang

Young Man Kang is a film director born in April 6th 1966. According to his bio, he lived in Seoul until 1994, when he moved to the US. Now, it seems unlikely that Kang or his family would've visited Austria before 1984 (when Elisabeth was locked in the cellar), especially considering that South Korea was military dictatorship until 1987. Even if they did go to Austria, it seems highly unlikely that they would've had any reason to visit the small and insignificant town of Amstetten, where the Fritzl family lived. Of course there's minuscule chance that they might've visited Vienna during the three week period when Elisabeth ran away from home, but even in that case Vienna still had over 1 500 000 inhabitants in 1983, and Elisabeth was specifically hiding from the authorities, so it seems seems almost certain that she couldn't have met Kang during that small period of time. After Elisabeth was freed in 2008, she has lived in guarded clinics, and in two anonymous locations in Austria, and the only people who've managed to find her were some British paparazzo, so it seems highly unlikely she would've come to contact with a Korean filmmaker living in the US. Also, since the Fritzl case was widely publicized around the world, Kang's web site would probably have some mention of it, if he for some odd reason had come to contact with Elisabeth.

Anne Frank - German Jewish girl died aged 15 in the Nazi concentration camps and received posthumous fame after the publication of her diary.

Frank 'Lefty' Rosenthal - American gambling executive with Mafia ties, the inspiration for the character played by Robert De Niro in the film Casino.

Both born June 12, 1929.

Anne Frank died long before Rosenthal achieved any kind of fame. Rosenthal the son of a produce wholesaler, and spent his Chicago childhood learning the gambling trade, skipping class and getting into trouble with the local police.

In an age when intercontinental travel was extremely rare among people of Rosenthal's background, the likelihood that he journeyed to Germany or the Netherlands as a small child and by chance met Anne Frank during the era of Nazi Germany is remote. I can certainly find no mention of such a remarkable trip in the copious biographical information about Rosenthal on the web.

Anne Frank's short life is very well-documented. She never visited America, even though her father tried to seek refuge for his family there.

They were both Jewish, but that's where the connection ends.

This thread is the best thing ever on ILX.

i agree!!

Fritzl case was the first thing that came to my mind for this

Felt a bit grim searching for child murders and holocaust victims just for this, so didn't go down that route. Instead how about

David Unaipon and Catherine Shaw (entry 34), both born 28 Sept 2872. He was a prominent Australian Aboriginal inventor, writer, and preacher, who travelled widely in Australia but not so far as I can tell outside the country. She was born in Jura in the Inner Hebrides in Scotland, and married a local shepherd. She died in 1919 and the chances of her going on hoilday to Australia are remote to say the least.

If she doesn't meet notability requirements then how about Billy the Kid and Karl Hjalmar Branting, born Nov 23, 1860. Billy the Kid certainly never left America and there is no record of Branting travelling there, holidays to america unlikely, steamship travel still a novelty, yada yada.

nb also born on same date as Unaipon: Franz John, German photographer and president of Bayern Munich.

Ledge, the Wikipedia page you linked to says Billy the Kid was born in 1859, not 1860. So that would make him a year older than Branting.

uh. how did that happen? also further research indicates billy the kid's birth date is actually something of an open question.

ok along similar lines, William Carver of the wild bunch, born 12 September 1868, lived, fought, died aged 32 in the american south. Jan Brandts Buijs, Dutch-Austrian composer, also born 12 Sept 1868. Not noted for visiting american south in the first 32 years of his life.

looking at the lives of people born on the same day as child murder victims and so on felt morbid at first, but it's also kinda poignant.

Least convincing case, out.

I envisage turbulence...

Last stab. For now. Dec 2 1877, Chinese scholar v U.S. Representative from Ohio. Died at ages 50 and 35, respectively. Wang travelled to Japan but no evidence of him leaving the orient or Carl leaving America at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Guowei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_C._Anderson

ok just one more. but it's definite, although tragic.

Mutya Buena, UK songstress, born 21 May 1985 in London, certainly did not travel across the atlantic in the first few weeks of her life to meet one of the four non-surviving Fruscati septuplets, the first septuplets to be born in the states.

ok another one, and pretty definite.

alexander pushkin, russian poet, and william threlfall, british missionary. pushkin never left russia, and that detailed bio of threlfall mentions no visits to russia, or anywhere near russia: as the son of a tanner at that time, it's unlikely that he would have visited as a child; he left england for africa when he was 22, and lived and died there.

Okay, I think I have an even more convincing case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl

Sophie Scholl was born May 9th, 1921 and died February 22nd, 1943. She was a German peace activist, a member of the famous anti-Nazi group the White Rose, which was located in München. She was caught by the Nazis and executed in 1943 alongside other members of the group. According to the the book written on her, Sophie Scholl and the White Rose (by Annette Dumbach & Jud Newborn), she lived her whole life in Southern Germany and never left the country. Furthermore, she kept a detailed diary of her life ever since she was teenager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berrigan

Daniel Berrigan is an American peace activist and a priest who was born May 9th, 1921. According to his biography he was born into a working class/lower middle-class farmer family in Virginia, and he lived his childhood and youth in Syracuse, New York. He joined the Jesuits in 1939 and was ordained a priest in 1952, after 13 years of training with the Jesuits. Now, in the 1920s and 1930s it was highly unlikely for people of Berrigan's background to go on transatlantic holidays to Europe. Had they gone somewhere in Europe, it would've most likely been Ireland, from where the parents of Berrigan's father had emigrated to the US. Furthermore, throughout the 1920s and 1930s the Scholl family lived in various small towns and villages, so even if the Berrigans would've visited Germany during that time, it's unlikely they would've come anywhere near where the Scholls lived. When Sophie Scholl moved to München to study at the university, Germany was already at war with the USA, and Berrigan was studying with the Jesuits, so it's even less likely Berrigan would've visited München then. Furthermore, Sophie's diaries have no mention of her meeting an American boy of her exact age. And since Berrigan became a pacifist activist, one would assume that in the various interviews of him he would've mentioned it if he'd ever visited Nazi Germany, let alone met any members of the White Rose, who were Christian pacifists like himself.

God, why did I never read this thread until now, it's great!

Problem with this round is that even though sources say Henry Allingham/George Francis Lincoln/Darwin never met, it's impossible to prove a negative. There might be no record of them meeting, but perhaps they met without realising it. It helps a lot if both parties are generally held to never have travelled abroad, but otherwise "they never met" claims are made using a lower standard of proof than perhaps this competition demands!

Yeah, and yet these cases are all pretty convincing as far as they go, I wouldn't want to argue for eliminatining anyone based on them.

i didn't put the pushkin/threlfall birth date in my post! 6 june 1799.

i don't feel like i can do this one convincingly

i'm not very good at convincing people or writing, i thought this was about researching!

Well Tuomas has taken this as a licence to write some phd theses but I would like to think my one-sentence spiel on mutya buena is pretty convincing.

i know i am just being tired. i can't find anyone born the same day as jonbenet ramsey.

OK, if multiple-birth casualties meet "notablity requirements" then I submit the follow in place of Anne Frank/Frank Rosenthal.

Ian Thorns/Benjie Paras

On October 2, 1968, Sheila Thorns and her new sextuplets made headlines around the world. One (unnamed) baby died shortly after birth. Another of them, Ian, died 12 days later (report tagged on to bottom of 'Vision' Sends Pastor, Flock to Hills story).

Venancio Johnson Paras, Jr was born on the same day in Baguio City, Philippines. Benjie Paras (as he became known) became a celebrated basketball player and now works as an actor.

It is stretching credulity to suggest that the Thorns family might have accepted visits from Filpino infants in the 12 days of Ian's life, even if Benjie's parents felt inclined to make a 6000-mile with him.

6000-mile journey, that is.

If Lincoln/Darwin is insufficient, then I would wager that the American poet Robert Pinsky, who grew up in a New Jersey slum, probably didn't travel to Nazi Germany before May 1, 1945, when Heidrun Goebbels (also born on October 20, 1940) was killed by her parents. (And likewise, Joseph Goebbels probably didn't take his children to an enemy state at the time.)

We're all winners.

sorry about the stfu

Yeah, there are quite a lot of these infant mortality ones to use, as well. For instance, I would wager that the children murdered by Marie Noe would meet notability requirements. It is highly unlikely (indeed, stretching credulity, in Alba's terms) that Richard Noe, born March 7, 1949 would have met Ghulam Nabi Azad, born on the same day, before he died a month later. The prohibitive distance between Philadelphia and Jammu & Kashmir would of course be one factor, but so too would the transportation of an infant under a month old.

Round closed!

yeah i got distracted sorry :(

It is okay!

So, most fair way seems: 2 out from horse with rider, one horse gets rider, 3v3! Rewind shows Lex was first to have no rider, so to change group. Lex do you object?

If no complains:

Division A:

JayMC
Emil.y
Lex Pretend

Division B:

Alba
Tuomas
Ledge

Will there be two winners or will the winners of division A and B eventually face each other?

Tuomas, grand final between winners of divisions. One king!

Round five - all talk of horses and riders gives idea; you must find racehorse. Racehorse must have won race. Give citation!

Tiebreaker is scrabble score. Space okay but counts as zero!

Numbersixvalverde won 2006 Grand National.

35 points.

oh i don't know if i'll be online tomorrow evening w/the mad scrambling to outscrabble each other as the deadline approaches :(

(fine w/group change!)

Actually, I can do better than that:

Quizzical Lady

46 points.

Henrythenavigator won the 2,000 Guineas, the Irish 2,000 Guineas, the St. James's Palace Stakes and the Sussex Stakes in 2008.

30 points.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Quatorze_(horse)]Louis Quatorze[/i] won the Preakness in 1996.

31 points.

Jazz Messenger won the 2006 Christmas Hurdle

41 points

initial placeholder, the appallingly-named squirtle squirt, won a bunch of races listed on that page, 32 pts.

Michelozzo won the St. Leger in 1989.

35 points.

Deweycheatumnhowe won several races in 2007-08, including the Hambletonian Trot.

37 points.

Lucky Lucky Lucky, 1984 winner of the Kentucky Oaks

42 points

Black Jack Ketchum won the Spa Novices' Hurdle in 2006 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spa_Novices%27_Hurdle

48 points

bit of a mechanical task, this one ;_;

Nobiz Like Shobiz won several races in 2006-07.

44 points.

I've found one worth 55, fwiw.

are you playing on infinitely sized scrabble boards with no bonus places?

I hope so.

Jambalaya Jazz, 1994 Kentucky Jockey Club Stakes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Jockey_Club_Stakes

52 points

time for bed

A horse named Fuzzy Wuzzy won a race (though I can't find which one) in 1974.

58 points.

As I'm quite drunk and will also probably be away tomorrow, all I can do is try to out-placeholder the lex. I currently have Kitano Kachidoki for 33 points (look under previous winners for 1974).

are you playing on infinitely sized scrabble boards

Racehorse names are limited to 18 characters, including spaces.

Hence lastofthebrownies.

A Finnish racehorse called Kivarin Zazazaa has won 5 races:

http://ravit.iltasanomat.fi/hevoset/10896

The line "Voitot" tells how many victories she has. Just so you don't think I pulled that Finnish page out of my ass trusting you don't understand what it says, here's a picture of her winning a race:

http://www.raviradat.fi/gallery/Voittajat-1-4-07/Kivarin_Zazazaa

That nets me 48 points. If you think finding a Finnish horse name gives me an unfair advantage, I can tell you that the letter "z" is far less common in Finnish than in English. It's so uncommon that it's not even included among the Finnish Scrabble tiles.

However, if you think a Finnish racehorse should score according to Finnish Scrabble rules, here's a another Finnish horse called Broängens Ghosakrama:

http://ravit.iltasanomat.fi/hevoset/10896

He has 17 victories. Here's a picture of him after one:

http://www.teivonravit.fi/kuvasto/brogholoimi.html

According to the Finnish Scrabble, this nets me 55 points.

If you think finding a Finnish horse name gives me an unfair advantage

I thought Emil.y was clever by finding a Japanese horse, and the same would apply for you.

finnish scrabble tiles should be DENIED though.

Yes.

Okay, I'm playing by the English tiles then.

If you think finding a Finnish horse name gives me an unfair advantage

strongly tempted to make this my display name

Finnish horse - good! Finns race mostly chariots? Interesting!

Tile scores english please.

I found a better horse than my previous one:

http://ravit.iltasanomat.fi/hevoset/9302

Quizzical Kemp has three wins, and is worth 50 points.

I've found one worth 55, fwiw.

I think I found this one, too.

Maps -- could you let me know if Fuzzy Wuzzy is OK? I don't have any information beyond that he won a race in 1974. If that's insufficient, I can post the 55-pointer I just found. Otherwise, I'll leave it for someone else to find.

quaze quilt (37pts) won the 1974 alabama stakes - list of winners here.

oh wait this is better. lucky lucky lucky (42pts) won the 1984 black-eyed susan stakes.

Dizzy Whizz

56 points.

Fuzzy Wuzzy - good.

Okay, one more:

http://heppa.hippos.fi/heppa/app?page=horse%2FRacingHistory&service=external

Jazz Jambalya is a Swedish horse who won four races in 2002. Here's a Swedish scorecard for further proof of her victory:

http://www.qhurth.com/trav/lopp/final_klass_2.htm

Scroll down to the contest held in 2002-11-09 to see Jazz Jambalaya as the victor.

This will net me 52 points.

xp Thanks!

Whoops, I just noticed that Ledge posted a horse called Jambalaya Jazz. However, since my first link says Jazz Jambalaya was born in 1998, it can't be the same horse Ledge linked to, as it won a race in 1994.

lol @ two separate horses named Jazz Jambalaya and Jambalaya Jazz

I'm now even with Ledge. Will one contestant drop out from both groups, even if Ledge and I might have more points than two people in the group A?

Never mind, I found an even better one:

Dizzy Miss Lizzy won two races in 1997. She's worth 59 points.

Haha, I found a horse called Siz Ziz Zit XX, but unfortunately it didn't win any races.

I'm now even with Ledge. Will one contestant drop out from both groups, even if Ledge and I might have more points than two people in the group A?

One out from each group. If draw, tie-breaker round between two rivals, everyone else wait a day.

Well, there's no tie anymore, unless Ledge comes up with something worth 59 points.

Granted, it's a bit unfair as Ledge is from Australia and probably asleep now, but what can you do?

Ledge isn't from Australia. Tuomas FAILS at research!

oh snap.

Like I can talk.

Strewth cobber, your dizzy miss lizzy link goes nowhere!

oh wait this is better. lucky lucky lucky (42pts) won the 1984 black-eyed susan stakes.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:49 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This was one of Ledge's placeholders from yesterday, btw.

Whoops, sorry, for some reason the page doesn't allow direct linking. You have to go here:

http://heppa.hippos.fi/heppa/horse/HorseBasic.html

Then type "Dizzy Miss Lizzy" into the search box and click "Hae". Then click "Ravikilpailuhistoria", and you can see she won two races in 1997.

oh ffs. and i actually found a 41-pointer but didn't note it b/c it wasn't enough! oh well 38pts should be enough i have no time to go looking any more. stop hoovering up all the good ones, you people with 25 hours per day!

like you've all got over 50pts now, you can STOP and leave us some

Here's the scorecard from one of the races Dizzy Miss Lizzy won:

http://heppa.hippos.fi/heppa/app?page=racing%2FRaceResults&service=external&sp=CF878508000000&sp=CEL&sp=CC8

I think yer pulling a fast one, I put that page into google translate and the header is "Warm starting the bloodshed tasoitusajo 2140 m Tel 504 e."

Round closed!

I think google is translating the Finnish word for "warm-blooded" into "warm starting the bloodshed".

However, try to translate "hevonen / ohjastaja", and you see it's a genuine page.

http://www.hippos.fi/hippos/englanti/

Plus the site has an English summary, if that's enough to convince you.

also hippos, that's latin, what's finnish doing with latin words?

Warm starting is the bloodshed now!

Division A:

Lex (38)
JayMC (58)

Divison B

Alba (56)
Tuomas (59)

Ledge & Emily, thank you for great contestants!

thank you for great contest!

Sorry for the last minute spurt, Ledge. I'm sure I'll be off next though, I fathom a Jaymc vs. Alba finale.

But gotta try still, I never imagine I would've made it this far.

Division finals!

Truly hard round, to be division champion. 48hr, for Thursday 9PM!

Must travel maximum distance, using only land owned by people. You have three people, to own the land. Wolframalpha to judge distance please!

Must be one landowner for each land - maybe all land in North Korea owned by state, but state is not person. Nor can be president, dictator, king, or other ruler of country.

Wait, should the three lands be connected?

I mean, so that you could literally walk from one to the second to the third?

Yes - your entry is two places, and distance between them. Then you must demonstrate how it is possible to walk between, on land of three or fewer people!

But if say you walk to land of Albert, then onto land of Bert, then back onto land of Albert, you still have third name in reserve.

Ted Turner owns a tract of land in Nebraska that is 225,342 acres:
http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2007/07/16/469b85b8341e2

225,342 acres = 352.096875 sq mi = 18.76 mi x 18.76 mi

Obviously the land is not a perfect square, and southeast to northwest runs much longer than 18.76:

http://www.northplattebulletin.com/utilities/genThumb.asp?path=D:inetpubnorthplattebulletinuploadsnewsImages772.jpg&width=700

But since I can't seem to find precise figures, I'm going to stick with 18.76 miles, since we know it's at least that much.

(Sorry, meant to link to the map shown here: http://www.northplattebulletin.com/index.asp?show=news&action=readStory&storyID=12684&pageID=3)

Also, surely there are a couple of privately owned lands that abut Turner's land, but I have no idea how to find out anything about them.

Actually, let me revise:

Ted Turner's Vermejo Park Ranch in New Mexico is 2,391 sq mi = 48.9 mi x 48.9 mi.

It looks like it's adjacent to the Santa Fe Trail Ranch in Colorado, but there are multiple owners on that land, and I can't find who owns the property that directly abuts Vermejo Park.

i'm a bit drunk but i don't think i actually understand this round?

I suppose is hard to name places, as entry, since places rarely have one landowner! Is round too hard? If so, can replace - views?

I guess it's possible to find information on land ownership, maybe the size of the land in square meters too, but since lands don't tend to be in the form of a perfect square or circle, it's pretty hard to say what's the actual distance from one border to another.

I think this round might be rather hard to judge, I must say.

(that's my way of saying TOOO HARRRD)

The best round was the earliest book one - clear goal, easy to judge, and it meant relying on sources other than wikipedia. I think y'all wanna go for something like that again.

Ok - new round, 24hr, 9PM!

Wusses.

I thought the book round was a bit boring, as it was kinda mechanical, just going through long lists of books in various catalogues. I liked the "two people who've never met each other" task more, as it involved more creativity. Though I guess real research work is more mechanical than creative.

just going through long lists of books in various catalogues

Not the way I did it!

do tell...

Hahaha, come on guys, you are competing to be the KING of RESEARCH. Surely you can manage this?

I knew I'd be out that last round, which is a shame as it was much fun, but I think going to London to watch B.S. Johnson films at the BFI was worth it. Ah well.

Hahaha, come on guys, you are competing to be the KING of RESEARCH. Surely you can manage this?

I'm sure we could manage it if we could provide paper maps (with the scale marked), copies of public register papers, etc as proof. Unfortunately we have to rely on Internet links here, which seems a bit difficult for this task.

i liked the anagram round and the date-of-birth round best

I think going to London to watch B.S. Johnson films at the BFI was worth it

Ah, shit: how was that? <Jealous>

It was AWESOME. I'd not seen any of them before, and had been worried that some might have been destroyed in the BBC purges or similar, but there were about 7 of them shown, and every one was beautiful, funny, moving. Also hadn't known about the Unfortunates documentary, which is obviously filmed in my hometown circa 1969, so that was bizarrely exciting. Was quite impressed by his very very badly received experimental short Paradigm, too.

AH GOD that sounds amazing. Really, really glad you enjoyed it. Are there any plans for DVDs/websites, do you know?

I don't know, but I'm hoping that as they've gathered up a collection to show then there will be a DVD release at some point. David Quantick did recently put Fat Man on a Beach up on youtube, so if you haven't seen that then get ye thence. It's had to be put up in separate installments, though, so might not work as well as the full thing in one go.

OK! Tried to take to suggestions.

Division finals
Thursday, 9PM.

Final A: Lex v JayMC

1. Post map which includes four contiguous regions. All must start with the same letter! Regions must be administrative, though can be old or historical map. Tiebreaker is how many - if five, better than four! If both same same number, tiebreaker is alphabetical - later, better.

Final B: Tuomas, Alba

2. Post art which includes gun. Musket, blunderbus, good, but no cannon - handheld only. Tiebreaker is earliest. If date disputed, latest possible taken. Art can be painting, sculpture, anything, but must post photo of it.

Do the contiguous regions need to be at the same level? That is, can I post two countries beginning with the same letter and then two provinces within an adjacent country?

Yes, but must be on same map! Would be unusual map to show, but if you find, impressive!

Also: name given on map is name of place. For instance, if german map, cannot say Deutschland is Germany.

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_taus/Research/Research_images/HGlgehumble_1400.jpg

I'm not sure if this is actually a "handheld" gun, even though it is called "hand cannon". The picture is from 1400.

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_taus/Research/Research_images/HGnorth_1411.jpg

However, this one is clearly a hanheld gun. The picture is from 1411.

The source for both pictures:

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_taus/Research/Research_Handgonne.htm

Ooh, I like the sound of these rounds. And brilliant pictures found by Tuomas already.

Will there be cries of 'fix' if Alba does win, though?

http://www.naco.org/images/maps/AL.gif

Starting in the top right: Cherokee-Calhoun-Cleburne-Clay-Coosa-Chilton

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/FireLanceAndGrenade10thCenturyDunhuang.jpg

I'm not sure if you consider this one a "gun", but here's a 10th century cave mural, where in the upper corner you can see someone wielding a fire lance. Wikipedia claims this is the "earliest known representation of a gun".

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/lgepeterson_1326.JPG

Cannon firing a sprite or springel (cannon arrow) , from "De Nobilitatibus, Sapientii et Prudentiis Regum", manuscript, by Walter de Milemete, 1326

That's not handheld, sorry. Just catching up with this.

Whoops, that's huge! Here's a smaller version of the same pic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FireLanceAndGrenade10thCenturyDunhuang.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FireLanceAndGrenade10thCenturyDunhuang.jpg

I think you've already won this!

Well, it doesn't seem to work. Just check the big picture.

http://www.world-geographics.com/cfg/public/_lib/img/maps/eurasia/map_of_russian_regions.png

starting at the purple 6 in the west, moving east then south:

kostroma (purple 6), kirov, komi, khantia-mansia, krasnoyarsk, kemerovo (purple 5), khakassia (grey 7)

fire lance not gun, i don't think - fires spear!

Are you sure? Wikipedia says:

The earliest fire lances were spear-like weapons combining a tube containing gunpowder and projectiles tied to a Chinese spear. Upon firing, the charge ejected a small projectile or poison dart along with the flame.

So apparently the spear and the gun were different parts of the same weapon.

This (very large) map shows that the Georgia counties of Chattooga and Carroll also are contiguous with the six Alabama counties posted above, which makes eight counties beginning with C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chinese_Fire_Lance_with_Pellets.JPG

Here's a picture of a fire lance that clearly fires bullets/pellets. It's from Huolongjing, which dates from the 14th century.

Sorry, that didn't work, here's the pic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Chinese_Fire_Lance_with_Pellets.JPG

apropos of nothing helpful to anyone, i've just learnt that there is a turkish administrative province called BATMAN.

Actually, here's a map of California.

Contiguous counties beginning with S:
Sutter, Sacramento, Solano, San Joaquin, Stanislaus, Santa Clara, San Mateo, San Francisco, Santa Cruz, and San Benito.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/albaalba/ilx/Picture3.png

Carving in a Sichuan cave, depicting a vase-like bombard. Dated 1128.

http://www.robert-temple.com/newspaper_articles/sundaytimes_1mar1987.pdf

apropos of nothing helpful to anyone, i've just learnt that there is a turkish administrative province called BATMAN.

You must not have seen this, then.

Meanwhile, I've learned that in the state of Georgia, Coffee county is adjacent to Bacon county.

Alba, the news story you linked to says: "Contrary to the mythical depiction in the cave, no human could have held the weapon. It would probably have been mounted on a rack." So I guess it's not a handheld weapon.

And I know the 10th century mural I linked to is "mythical" also, but the fire lance was a handheld gun in real life too.

I don't think the rules said we had to find a representation of a real-world weapon. If it's a hand-held gun in the carving, surely that's OK?

I dunno, I guess that's up to Maps to decide. Anyway, the picture I posted is still older.

I think this round was a bit too easy though. That mural picture was so easy to find, it was more like a quickness contest.

I was having my dinner at the crucial hour!

I thought the 10th century fire-lance mural was ruled out for shooting arrows, rather than bullets?

No, it doesn't shoot arrows, I think Maps misread the description in the Wiki page for fire lances.

(And anyway, it's pretty hard to define a "bullet" or "gun", isn't it? I'd say any weapon that fires a projectile via a controlled explosion should be called a "gun".)

The earliest fire lances were spear-like weapons combining a tube containing gunpowder and projectiles tied to a Chinese spear. Upon firing, the charge ejected a small projectile or poison dart along with the flame.

The spear and the gun are separate parts of the same weapon, just like more modern guns have bayonets.

OK, I've looked into this properly now. Where is the evidence that the fire lance in the mural is firing projectiles of any sort? Some fire lances had shrapnel embedded in the tube, but if you read beyond that Wikipedia entry, you'll see that not all did, and certainly not in 950.

From Siege Weapons of the Far East by Stephen Turnbull:

The fire lance or fire spear consisted of an ordinary spear to which was affixed a tube rather like a Roman Candle. When lit by means of a glowing tinder carried in a box at the soldier's belt, it burned for about five minutes, and when it was burned out its operator could use the spear for its conventional purpose. (p41)

He goes on to talk about their development:

Fire lances were also used during the siege of Xiangyang between 1268 and 1274 and as time went by these weapons grew more and more to resemble the hand-held guns that would eventually replace them, as pellets were discharged along with the flames, and certain varieties had metal barrels from as early as 1200 (p42)

In that mural, the fire lance is a flamethrower, not a gun.

Well, if you want to go into details, the article you linked offers no proper evidence either that the device in the picture is a gun and not a flamethrower, except that it has the same shape as guns brought to Europe two centuries later. Maybe the first versions of this weapon were merely flamethrowers just like first versions of fire lances were.

Also, I'd still call it into question that it's a "handheld" weapon, if it wasn't like that in real life. And in the picture you can actually see a supporting rod beneath the gun, so maybe it isn't a handheld weapon even inside this "mythical depiction".

Moreso, it looks like Joseph Needham (quoted in the article) isn't an uncontested authority on the subject:

Significance
Gunpowder did not appear in the West until the late thirteenth century. Therefore, it is clear that gunpowder was a Chinese invention, and its first military applications were also made by the Chinese. However, the first use of gunpowder in guns and cannon is controversial. Some scholars, such as Sinologist Joseph Needham, believe that the transition from bamboo tube to metal barrel to gun and cannon occurred in China in the thirteenth century. Others argue that these weapons are European inventions. Still others trace them to Arab inventors.

Quote from here:

https://salempress.com/store/samples/great_events_from_history_middle_ages/great_events_from_history_middle_ages_invention.htm

...so it could be that Needham's interpretation that the device in the picture is a gun that fires bullets is incorrect.

I guess Maps will be the final judge here.

I have found a clearer picture of the carving, which clearly shows a ball-shaped missile firing from the bombard. And the "rod" doesn't touch the floor - it is clearly being held by the soldier.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3319/ishackimageohd.jpg

But you can see carving is damaged in the spot where the rod would connect to the floor, so maybe the bit has been scraped off.

Anyway, since Needham himself says that weapon couldn't have been handheld in real life, I guess it's up to our judge to decide whether or not this is a picture of a "handheld gun".

"the bit that would show the rod touching the floor has been scraped off"

http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/images/protogun.jpg http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/images/gun4.jpg http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/images/bamboogeneral.jpg

According to this page, these devices are the first "true handguns", and they date to the 13th century. The article mentions Needham's finding, but says that it isn't certain whether the picture depicts a gun. Also, it mentions that the date of the statues Needham found is also unclear:

The actual date of the statues are unknown, perhaps dating at the latest to the late Song period of the mid 13th century A.D., and at the earliest to the Northern Song of the late 10th century A.D.

Anyway, I think this round suddenly became much more interesting. I'm glad you didn't settle for an easy defeat, Alba.

I saw that page, but those illustrations are not from the 13th century. They are from the Wubei Zhi, published in the 17th century.

And, yes, it does question the age of the carving. But it gives mid-13th century as the latest possible date. Still much earlier than 1411 picture you posted before.

Yeah, I know the pictures don't date from the 13th century, but they are presented as the first "true handguns". So I guess the question remains whether the thing in your pic is a handgun or not.

I'd say any weapon that fires a projectile via a controlled explosion should be called a "gun".

― Tuomas, Thursday, 18 June 2009 10:05

link to a large map of irish electoral constituencies - http://www.constituency-commission.ie/Images%5Cmap_c.jpg

dublin north, dublin north-east, dublin north-central, dublin north-west, dublin west, dublin central, dublin south-east, dublin south-central, dublin mid-west, dublin south-west, dublin south and dún laoghaire = 12.

there are so many terrible, pointless maps on the internet which don't give the names of municipal regions...wtf is the point of a map which just shows boundaries.

terrible, pointless maps on the internet

not exactly endearing yourself to the adjudicator there :)

yeah it's just that i have a much better one, but can't find a sodding map which shows everything in one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Chinese_Fire_Lance_with_Pellets.JPG

This picture of a bullet-firing fire lance, which I posted above, is from the Chinese weapon manual Huolongjing. Huolongjing dates to the 14th Century, so the picture is older than the 1411 picture of European handgun. This is the oldest picture of a real-life handgun I could find, though obviously it isn't as old as the carving of a bombard Needham found. So I leave it up to Maps to decide which one of us won.

I was (making a crap joke) referring to his screen name.

xp

I'd say any weapon that fires a projectile via a controlled explosion should be called a "gun".

― Tuomas, Thursday, 18 June 2009 10:05

― Alba, 18. kesäkuuta 2009 14:56 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

A "gun", yes, but not a "handheld gun". A gun that can't fired from hand is not a handheld gun, and Needham himself says that the gun in question couldn't have been handheld in real life. We were supposed to find "art which includes gun. Musket, blunderbus, good, but no cannon - handheld only". According to Needham the carving has a picture of a bombard, which is a type of a cannon, and not a handheld gun. It is a question of semantics whether Maps meant for us to find art which includes a real-life handheld gun, or a gun that is held by a mythological creature, even though it wasn't handheld in real life.

link to a large map of irish electoral constituencies

These aren't administrative divisions, though.

That bombard is as handheld as a blunderbuss. It's not a "handgun" (which must by definition be designed to be held and fired by one hand alone) but then neither is your fire lance.

The only issue is whether fantastical guns are prohibited. I can see nothing in Maps's criteria to suggest that they are.

Also, I don't suppose anyone has a copy of Konrad Kyser von Eichstadt's Belliforti (1405) lying around? Apparently it has a picture of a gun in it.

No, the fire lance could be used by holding it in both hands. That still fits the definition of "handheld", at least to me it does. Whereas with the bombard, according to Needham, "no human could have held the weapon. It would probably have been mounted on a rack." So it couldn't have been "handheld" by any definition of the word.

We were supposed to look for "handheld" guns, not handguns. I guess Maps didn't say "no fantastical guns" (though I'd say it was implied we should look for real weapons), but he did say "no cannons". And a bombard is a cannon.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Conrad_Kyeser's_Bellifortis_c_1405_fig_1.jpg

Looks handheld to me...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Conrad_Kyeser%27s_Bellifortis_c_1405_fig_1.jpg

Wikipedia says that's a rocket, though. Anyway, the picture in Huolongjing predates it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellifortis

Kyeser was infatuated with the legend of Alexander the Great: here Alexander holds a rocket, the first depiction of one[1] (Bellifortis c. 1405)

No, the fire lance could be used by holding it in both hands. That still fits the definition of "handheld", at least to me it does.

Tuomas, you have misread me. I am arguing that both the fire lance and the bombard in the mural fit the criteria. But mine is earlier. If the word "bombard" upsets you, then call it something else. The point is that it is handheld. The "cannon" thing is a red herring - it was only invoked by Maps because the archetypal "cannon" is not handheld.

Fire lance fits the criteria of "handheld" in real life, whereas the bombard fits the criteria of "handheld" only in the fantasy world of that carving. I think it's up to Maps to inform which definition he meant.

And I still think it's a supportive rod in that pic. ;)

You are the first authority to suggest so.

Fire lance fits the criteria of "handheld" in real life, whereas the bombard fits the criteria of "handheld" only in the fantasy world of that carving. I think it's up to Maps to inform which definition he meant.

I agree.

I guess this is why tasks where the entry has a clear numerical value are better... :) No semantic arguments needed.

If only research could have many kings! Level so high, and final to come!

Offer: a clear numerical challenge to settle it, still for 9PM. Would both candidates accept? If not, will have to make judgement call!

In other final, Lex no good:

Constituency - usually refers to an electoral division (which is not an administrative division), but in Namibia and in Canton of St. Gallen in Switzerland, "constituency" means "administrative division".

(for jaymc and lex: maps like this, where front of names are simply word for type of division - no good)

http://www.map-of-egypt.org/map-of-egypt.gif

Al-Isma'iliyah, As Suways, Al Bahr Al Ahmar, Aswan, Al Wadi Al Jadid, Asyut, Al Minya, Al Jizah, Al Fayyum, Al Qahirah, Al Qalyubiyah, Al Minufiyah, Al Buhayrah, Al Iskandariyah, Al Gharbiyah, Al Daqahliyah, Ash Sharqiyah

= 17

ok so i actually had that open in another window ready to post closer to the deadline. i hate u.

seriously cannot believe i spent so much time finding that and then you waltz in with it first

The contest is heating up. Only one can be the victor. Only one can be crowned... KING OF RESEARCH!

Don't hate the player, Lex, hate the game.

ok i don't know if this will count but will leave it up to maps to decide, as i don't have any more time!

this isn't one single jpg but all the maps here are scanned from the same source, so in terms of chronology and language they match up. if i had the software i could put them together in photoshop to make one image! though if i had the software i could just scan my own atlas. anyway!

governorates of saudi arabia: al bahah, asir, ar riyad, ash sharqiyah, al qasim, al madinah, al hudud ash shamaliyah, al jawf, al qurayyat = 9

ash sharqiyah is contiguous with yemen's al mahrah governorate (1) and also the UAE.

UAE emirates: abu zaby, ash shariqah, ajman, al fujayrah = 4

al qurayyat is contiguous with jordan. jordan governorates: al mafraq, amman, al karak,king of research at tafilah, al balqa, az zarqa = 6

al hudud is contiguous with kuwait. kuwait governorates: al jahrah, al ahmadi, al farwaniyah, al kuwayt = 4

jordan's al mafraq is contiguous with iraq. iraq provinces: al anbar, an najaf, al muthanna, al qadisiyah, al basrah = 5

al mafraq also contiguous with syria's as suwayda province = 1

total = 30! and while those are separate jpgs, the original is a single map...

egypt was gonna be my back-up plan *screwface at jaymc*

That's pretty impressive. Better, at least, than the 9 Cambodian provinces beginning with K that are contiguous with the Vietnamese province of Kien Giang, which I discovered yesterday.

However, I take issue with your assertion that the original is a single map. Though they come from the same atlas, each of those maps looks like a single plate.

I can't accept a new challenge now, Maps, as I'm heading out to the cinema. I'll have to be hostage to your adjudication.

I'm quite busy for tonight and tomorrow too. I'll trust your judgement.

Judgement it is!

JayMC objection - upheld! Lex out, JayMC to grand final!

Lex thank you for great semi-final and great contestant.

Only just seen this thread, what larks! Great tasks Maps.

Amazing division finals! In division A, JayMC stole Egypt from under Lex as he gambled for buzzer beating; in division B, even image called 'first gun depiction' on wikipedia not enough to go through! Voting was clear margin, even discounting 'popularity' votes, so Alba to final! Much praise to Tuomas - did more than anyone to raise standard of research in competition. And apologies for unclear question - I did not think through - all researchers in semis far more king than I.

Before final, can contestants please tell me focus of study at university and any postgraduate level? Aiming for playing field as level as possible.

Psychology BSc/Information Management MSc

Thanks for everyone for a great game! I knew Alba's case was probably stronger, but didn't want to admit defeat so easily. Like I guessed it's gonna be Alba vs. JayMc in the end, and deservedly so. Good luck for both of you!

egypt was gonna be my back-up plan *screwface at jaymc*

I honestly read this as "egypt was gonna be my screw-up plan *blackface at jaymc*". I need more sleep.

Good work, everyone.

Maps, in case you didn't get my e-mail:
English BA/no grad work

Good, then is fair!

Grand Final
Final will be judged by friend of mine, professor in this field. Question is this:

'Where is the missing heritability?'

You are to find it! When have found, explain where it is. Essay not needed (remember scientist marking!) but citations and evidence - good. If fail to solve major scientific mystery, tiebreaker is best case.

Round to Tuesday, 9PM.

Good luck!

So this is what all this has been leading to. A Nobel prize.

Hey here's the final question.

In the film 'City Slickers', there's a guy who looks like Newman (from Seinfeld)

What's the episode where he's in Seinfeld and light is make of his resemblance to Newman?

"The Big Salad"

jaymc: don't sleep on his skills.

Sorry - this is really poor show, but I'm not going to do this. It's a bit too much like proper homework for me and I've not got the time that it demands. Perhaps Tuomas could step back into the breach? If not, then jaymc, you truly are the king of research. Thanks for a great contest, Maps, and apologies if I've robbed you of a proper final.

Er, I was going to say something similar.

loool

http://www.ruhrtalcruising.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/holly_480.jpg

Jaymc, you are still the king, because I blinked first.

I don't even understand what the task is.

I mean, I understand the words, but I don't get what the task asks you two to do. I even put "Where is the missing heritability?" in Google, but the only result what this thread.

good thing you're not in the final, then!

"what" = "was"

i found a paper giving six explanations on where the missing heritability is in about 10 seconds. sadly i don't actually understand any of them as it's all in bioscience language, and i'm not in the final anyway.

I think Alba and I should just be declared co-kings.

Ah, googling for "missing heritability" reveals what the task is. Still, it seems to require much more specialized knowledge than the previous tasks.

Hey here's the final question.

In the film 'City Slickers', there's a guy who looks like Newman (from Seinfeld)

What's the episode where he's in Seinfeld and light is made of his resemblance to Newman?

― ambience chaser (S-), Friday, 19 June 2009 14:46 (4 days ago) Permalink

"The Big Salad"

― Bianca Jagger (jaymc), Friday, 19 June 2009 14:54 (4 days ago)

This is wrong! I just watched "The Big Salad" and there was no Newman look-a-like action.

I demand jaymc is stripped of his title.

Something of a disappointing end to a great game. Still, although I found a few papers on the topic very easily, I'm not convinced I could have been bothered to write an essay on genetics in order to win.

I was just interested to learn that that actor is Josh Mostel, son of Zero Mostel.

"He's learnin' on his own! Get him!"

This is wrong! I just watched "The Big Salad" and there was no Newman look-a-like action.

Ha, I had gone through the cast of City Slickers and checked out each actor's IMDB page and the only person I could find who was on Seinfeld played Genderson in "The Big Salad." But I also read the script and you're right, there's no mention of him looking like Newman. I thought maybe the joke was implicit or something.

I think the Newman lookalike must be Josh Mostel, but I can't see him ever being credited with an appearance in Seinfeld.

This was a really good thread, aside from the massively anti-climactic end. Wish someone would do another one of these. Though I do wonder if Maps was just using us to do his homework, as he doesn't seem to have posted anywhere else on ilx.

A long time and research has no king.

But maybe?

don't remember this thread at all

am somewhat o_0 at Bradford having a bigger population than Manchester, is that naive of me

I think this recent work from Kruglyak lab is very enlightening regarding the missing heritability

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v494/n7436/abs/nature11867.html
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S36/13/86G93/

A long time and research has no king.

But maybe?

― Maps, Thursday, September 5, 2013 10:13 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OMG MAPS. Give me research.

haha i really enjoyed this last time

I wanna play this time, it looks like fun!!

i think i wd be right into this game but maybe in 2013 there shd be some sort of rule against citing Wikipedia?

Why?

I do wonder if Maps was just using us to do his homework

If so, M's solution to how to get others to do the work was easily creative enough to qualify for the Tom Sawyer Fence Painting Redux trophy.

xp

ubiquity, mostly

Happy that people will maybe play! I will think hard over the weekend to make sure questions are good this time - no gun-picture, owned-land, heritability :(

Maps! cool

Darnit will have to miss out this time around, I'm away next week.

I thought the gun-picture round was pretty fun, it was like real academic squabbling.

New thread! king of research - season 2