Food Wars: Mexican Food v. Italian Food

Yo si ley voy, ley voy a Mexico.

This is honestly one of the hardest polls in ILX history.

fuck that. manicotti automatically puts Italy over the edge

Mexican.

how dare you call me that

this is close, but I like really good mexican food more than I like really good italian food

Mexican, by far. We got history in our food, the Italians stole theirs from the Chinese.

Taking pizza out of the equation (because actual Italian, as opposed to Italo-American pizza is vile) it's Mexican all the way.

WRONG!

love mex but italian wins by default just because i've eaten that so much more in my life

No amount of delicious burritos and tacos could compare to tiramisu and gelato -- Italian.

hoos is mexican.

Italian every time. No contest. I could eat pasta every day of my life and have a different and delicious meal every time. And thene there's saltimbocca for heaven's sake!

Part of what I dig about Mexican food, other than it being the food of my life & childhood & nostalgia & home, is that it can so easily be adapted to a healthier lifestyle. Black beans substituted for refried, whole wheat tortillas subbed for flour, spinach enchiladas with skim cheese etc. The options are ridiculous. Salsa is a fucking vegetable.

Mexican food is my favorite cuisine tbh.

tamales alone cinch this for the Mexicans

^ otm, I'd include horchata as well.

I probably love Mexican food more broadly and would gladly eat even the most generic Mexican combo platter over some boring old spaghetti and red sauce. But really clean, simple Italian stuff - salumi, cheeses, wine, olives, olive oil, pasta with only a couple of really good ingredients - might be some of my favorite foods ever.

Based on this thread, about 60% of ILX is genuinely, certifiably insane and should take a long hard look at themselves before lashing out over what goes on a pizza. I say this as an entirely unbiased Mediterranean, of course, but come on.

A difficult choice, but in the end it's got to be Mexican for me. Ask me again in 20 years and I'll probably say Italian, though.

Mexican food is my favorite cuisine tbh.

^^^

i mean sure lol this guy likes asparagus or prawns on his stone-bake every so often, and hey he once had a brainfart and cooked fish with chocolate and cheese, but the madness herein is a madness of the soul. perhaps it is a cultural thing that i cannot comprehend. (please attach previous sentence to end of every post)

also

actual Italian, as opposed to Italo-American pizza is vile

x_x

I think I agree with everything joygoat said. But am abstaining because of the extreme difficulty of tasting good Mexican food in the UK (presumably except for Loldon).

i'm going to Wahaca in the week. i had a burrito from Tortilla earlier.

Based on this thread, about 60% of ILX is genuinely, certifiably insane and should take a long hard look at themselves before lashing out over what goes on a pizza. I say this as an entirely unbiased Mediterranean, of course, but come on.

― One idiot even called me "redcoat" because I'm (country matters), Sunday, August 2, 2009 9:45 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

based on this post you are an idiot

<3 <3

mexican, because beans

lol i think this thread demands an LJ chill, one internet discussion ain't gonna make italian food any less nice

Even with pizza counting, I choose Mexican.

lj have you even had mexican food? you can only get it in america

Wahaca is great, as is Taqueria on Westbourne Grove. I also had a fab Mexican meal at La Perla on Charlotte Street last week and just down the road from my office I can get a drool-worthy lunchtime burrito that weighs about a kilo.

In short, I can get very very excited about Mexican in a way I can't about Italian. Although that probably has to do with only having fairly cheap shonky Italian meals that do a disservice to that country's cuisine. Real Italian icecream is NOMMMMMMMMMMMM tho.

actual Italian, as opposed to Italo-American pizza is vile

truth bomb

okay vile might be over the top, but italian-style pizza just isn't that interesting

have only really had the fast-foody burrito/taco/quesadilla/whatever stuff, from some pretty authentic and reputable joints, and sure it's nice, and sure if i had a goat's cheese tostada i might cream myself a little, but *sigh* O Italian food. O. O.

goat's cheese tostada

so...you haven't had mexican food have you

it's okay to admit it

his mind is made up

i still voted yh

http://www.aintnosurfintexas.com/zz%20top%20tres%20hombres%20mexican%20feast3%20copy.jpg

http://www.dallasfood.org/photos/mexjefferson/lahechizerajefftlacoyo.jpg

http://www.lataco.com/taco/wp-content/uploads/tlapazola4.jpg

i'm going to Mexico some day

the fact that you guys are talking about a mexican place called WAHACA (as opposed to OAXACA, the real spelling) just shows that britishes can't talk anything about mexican food.

seriously, lj, i don't blame you for voting on ancestry etc etc., but you have no idea what mexican food is. no idea.

I can't believe there is even a question about this. Without a doubt Mexican. MOLE!!!!!!

http://toppayingideas.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/rick-bayless.jpg

italian

Guy I work with from Cali reps for Wahaca, table. Don't be such a priss,

most people from cali are morons, did you know that?

the best thing about mexican food is that you can have it in a HOAGIE

with CHEESE

Italian, but I don't know if I've ever had decent Mexican - Mexican restaurants in London being notoriously shit.

lj have you even had mexican food? you can only get it in america

― blobfish russian (harbl), Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:06 PM Bookmark

I hear you can get it in Mexico, too.

the best thing about mexican food is that you can have it in a HOAGIE

― One idiot even called me "redcoat" because I'm (country matters), Sunday, August 2, 2009 4:04 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

with CHEESE

― One idiot even called me "redcoat" because I'm (country matters), Sunday, August 2, 2009 4:04 PM Bookmark

........

lj have you even had italian food? you can only get it in america

― blobfish russian (harbl), Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:06 PM Bookmark

LJ, in mexico and in the US, that is called a TORTA. not hoagie bread, though.

http://nymag.com/images/2/daily/food/07/06/04_sotw_lg.jpg

there's no difference between good flan and bad flan

chorizo con jamon up in this biz

rev ughhhhhh that was a joke

Did not know that most people from California were morons, as all those i've come into contact with have been rather bright. Are their tastebuds moronic too?

whenever I end up with mediocre Italian pasta I don't know what to do but when I end up with mediocre Mexican food I know I can open up a bottle of hot sauce and have a good time

plus Mexican beer is great

maybe they just knew if they didn't spell it that way people would be going around saying they ate at oh-ox-ah-ca

yeah i'm gonna start pronouncing it "Owaksaka" on purpose now

Here's a hint: If it is smothered in ridiculous amounts of queso, it is not Mexican, it is Tex-Mex. Thank you.

Mexican beer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Italian beer

^^^important point

thread turning out about as well as expected

no-- if anything, the hedonism that pervades much of california is downright foodie. look at this map.

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/236/Michelin-Rated-Restaurants-San-Francisco-2008

foodies are never morons

plus Mexican beer is great

pretty much my favourite beer these days (knowledge limited obv)

http://www.interstirn.si/files/negra_modelo/negramodelo1.jpg

but i had a dark beer in Venice that was just as good (assuming it was Italian but can't remember the name sadly)

rev ughhhhhh that was a joke

― blobfish russian (harbl), Sunday, August 2, 2009 4:07 PM Bookmark

yeah, I know, but your point that you can't get it in the UK is otm

tex mex owns

true

italo tex is better

the fact that you guys are talking about a mexican place called WAHACA (as opposed to OAXACA, the real spelling) just shows that britishes can't talk anything about mexican food.

lmfao i hadn't even realized this was some dandy transliteration omggggggggggggggggggggg

italo tsex is better

waxackuh

http://www.britishbattles.com/images/british-officer.jpg
have only really had the fast-foody burrito/taco/quesadilla/whatever stuff, from some pretty authentic and reputable joints

spanish is better than either btw

I fear if this becomes a UK v US thread about pronunciation AND rights to an opinion about particular countries' cuisine, ILX may suffer a meltdown. Seems to be where it's going.

what mexican beers are better than wht italian beers?

fwiw if i must explain i was facetiously referring back to a particularly awesome US vs UK foodfight with all that HOAGIE and CHEESE business

okay, yr right n1ck, but i must say that no matter what, foreign place names shouldn't be fucked with in terms of spelling. i mean, in english we don't spell Przemysl the way it is pronounced in Polish (Puh-sheh-mish). therefore, Wahaca is a totally fucked-up name. also this is an "authentic mexican food joint" in London:
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00156/wahaca_franke_156369s.jpg

now i will graciously fall on my bresaola ciabatta and let the americans run riot over this thread in an obnoxious celebration of all things stodgy

that looks like a fucking fast-sushi-salad place in a financial district somewhere, not a fucking taqueria. those two people (the owners) make me ill.

i mean, in english we don't spell Przemysl the way it is pronounced in Polish (Puh-sheh-mish).

maybe we should!

this is what an authentic mexican restaurant in the US looks like:

http://www.lostacotrucks.com/seattle/uploaded_images/P1030343-763440.JPG

if you're a spelling reformist, i have no use for you.

http://www.4896kj.com/journeying/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/mexican_food.jpg

SO STODGY

do we really have to do this thread again...seriously

btw yall for future reference

http://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/f65a/food_mini1.jpg

that taco on the right is the very finest taco you will ever eat in your goddamn life

YES, ONCE A WEEK AT LEAST

"don't be afraid, honey, it's just a goat's cheese tostada"
http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/film/gallery/2008/apr/07/1/GD6832712@JANET-LEIGH-&-CHARLTO-269.jpg

ronan otm

shd've done beer Vs. wine this week

http://austinist.com/attachments/ahaley/torchystacosbanner.jpg

BOOM

this thread is like listening to a radio "battle of the sexes" phone in with a male host and a female host

http://media.timeoutchicago.com/resizeImage/htdocs/export_images/148/148.x600.feat.100best.TaqueriaMo.jpg

Tacos al Pastor from Taqueria Moran, Chicago

BLAAAAOW

http://chicago.timeout.com/export_images/98/98.eat.opener.jpg

thank u Pepe Moran I will consume your delicious offerings

u cannot get brain tacos @ taqueria moran fyi but you can get lengua and cabeza

fucking awesome

nothing actually wrong with this thread save how one-sided it is

mods, can you please unban dom passantino for 20 minutes

HOOS is that some kind of sope on the left in your pic above?

tbh i have not ordered that particular item and can give u no info as to its nomenclature or genus

god now i want a fucking taco

I'm making sopes tonight!

honestly don't think you can vote one country's cuisine over another. individual dishes yes. whole menus, no.

nothing actually wrong with this thread save how one-sided it is

also, as a guy who has eaten the london equivalent of what passes for a burrito, I feel justified in saying that no britishers should be allowed to vote in this poll

you dude from tx & points west don't even wanna know what that london burrito tasted like

and finally even though I'm abstaining from this poll, any of youse who haven't actually been to Italy who think "oh it's no contest, Mexican" have exactly zero idea of what you're talking about. actual from-italy Italian food would straight freak you OUT.

^^^can i just str8-up kiss this guy

most of my burritos were eaten in cambridge while a student, and they're not making burritos outta strychnined rats in the sticks iirc

on an entirely unrelated note i walked past nick cave today and he wasn't eating a burrito

if you mean "cambridge, england" those weren't burritos, they were yorkshire puddings

pretty sure british ppl are still allowed in mexico and america and italy not only london

yes but in mexico they are notorious for only eating at the pescado y papas fritas trucks

http://asthecheeseturns.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/rotten-cheese.jpg

nice marmite holder there

Some of the best tasting Italian food I have ever eaten was made by a Mexican chef.

http://www.iseehue.com/Subset/Traditional%20Painting/images/Pacifico.jpg

am I right that this thread is basically a buncha guys who've never really had italian food vs. a buncha guys who've never really had mexican food

tomato sauce + cheese + x (bread, pasta, chicken etc) >> any food combo on earth

the S. stands for Salvatore & I claim my 500 lire

traitor xp

i mean don't get me wrong i love mexican food but that subset of italian food is my number one jam

one thing that mexican has in its favor is that it's much easier to find good & cheap mexican than it is to find good & cheap italian, pizza excepted

italy

I love it. Another good food fight thread.

And John brings up a really important point. I live in north Mexico - California, where apparently we are all retarded - and as good as the Mexican food is here, it holds nary a candela to Mexican from actual Mexico. Shit is unreal.

And my wife says the same about Italian, me having never been.

i've been to buca di beppo

authenticity arguments always time well spent

one thing that mexican has in its favor is that it's much easier to find good & cheap mexican than it is to find good & cheap italian, pizza excepted

― air crut (J0rdan S.), Sunday, August 2, 2009 5:49 PM Bookmark

This is OTM. I can't afford to eat good Italian.

for me, italian food in italy was super disappointing, save the gelato, which was def on another level.

our meals were consistently good, but there were no epiphany moments, and it wasn't *significantly* different from the italian restaurants I had been going to in france/america - except the bread sucked balls and we had to get in 20 minute arguments w/ the waiters to get non-bottled water. not worth it.

Salume poll

this is like choosing your favorite kind of blowjob

― max, Thursday, 23 October 2008 15:47 (9 months ago) Bookmark

wow i really did just post that

― max, Thursday, 23 October 2008 15:47 (9 months ago) Bookmark

huevos w/ chorizo bitchez!

iatee next time you're in italy I suggest you get yourself invited to eat at somebody's house

if you cannot wrangle an invitation just knock on some doors

because a home-cooked italian meal will fuck you up

I'm sure it would

but I'd still rather have a home-cooked mexican meal if I got a choice

because a home-cooked italian meal will fuck you up - truth bomb (gf comes from an Italian family w/ tightly-guarded secret recipes which are handed down as a birthright among the women).

Still gotta go with Mexican.

me too, i like the ingredients in mexican better and i hate secret recipes

Pasta turns you into a big fat fuck. I vote Mexican.

fuck's sake usa i cannot wait for british morning worktime to come and lay down some harsh unprotected truth on y'all here

i am in awe at this argument:

"the fact that you guys are talking about a mexican place called WAHACA (as opposed to OAXACA, the real spelling) just shows that britishes can't talk anything about mexican food." - hey guy DID YOU KNOW MOST SO-CALLED INDIAN RESTAURANTS ARE ACTUALLY BANGLADESHI-OWNED? HUH? HUH?

(i am quite willing to believe there's a shortage of good mexican food in london or in england, though. it is bcz there is not a sizable hispanic minority in england! try spain.)

haha here is a place called taqueria, in notting hill:

http://www.timeout.com/img/5324/w310/image.jpg

according to time out it "really shows what mexican food is about."

sorry — what mexican street food is about.

fuck's sake usa i cannot wait for british morning worktime to come and lay down some harsh unprotected truth on y'all here

and then they can go to lunch to chow down on some goat cheese tostadas

fuck's sake usa i cannot wait for british morning worktime to come and lay down some harsh unprotected truth on y'all here

most of the britsher posters will be too engrossed in their second helpings of spotted dick to get involved in this important discussion

lol xpost w/iatee, high five

dear america: i will happily bet that nine-tenths of yr romanticized back-of-a-truck taste-the-dirt taco joints are not very good

esp. when you want a quality goat cheese tostada

how britishes can get so ragey over food they haven't even tasted is just ?????

wtf @ goat cheese?? Manchego, people!

(tho I could just be narrow-minded)

americans started it xpost

haha i think mb if the british ppl started a thread every three weeks about the lack of good indian food in the midwest we would acheive parity?

queso fresco

i don't know, maybe the midwest is full of awesome indian food

i think this thread would be better if big hoos and dan m posted more awesome pictures of tacos and no one used the phrase 'goats cheese tostada' again

america has a lot of indians though. we have all the ethnicities so we know about all the foods.

haha i think mb if the british ppl started a thread every three weeks about the lack of good indian food in the midwest we would acheive parity?

aren't you the guy who doesn't look over his shoulder when changing lanes on the highway or whatever the hell you call it over there

maize. you call it "corn."

i would grant that this is a horrible thread and should never have been started

i don't drive but i believe i have heard them referred to as "roads" xpost

why does every ilx food thread have to balkanize into insults and spotted dick tomfoolery

i cannot wait for british morning worktime to come and lay down some harsh unprotected spotted dick

awwww yeah that is what i am talking about

spotted dick burrito

can somebody hack this board so everybody's screen name is "spotted dick burrito," thx in advance

i'm vice president spotted dick cheney

Okay, so I've never been to Italy, I admit. I have been to many of the finest Italian establishments in New York City, and I also have eaten Italian food that Tony fucking Roma cooked himself, so whatever. I do love Italian food.

But compared to the Mexican food in Mexico, or up here in San Francisco, or in the small town of Globe, Arizona, or wherever....it just ain't my thing so much. Mexican has been my favorite food since I was a kid, and so I can't give it up.

guys i would like to congratulate you on the 100th 'haha, the british have a foodstuff called spotted dick' joke on ilx

it's never not funny

hey guy DID YOU KNOW MOST SO-CALLED INDIAN RESTAURANTS ARE ACTUALLY BANGLADESHI-OWNED? HUH? HUH?

this might be true in UK, not so much in the US. as far as my Indian friends tell me, most of the places are Punjabi.

also, i didn't mean to insult California so brazenly. i do love it here, i just wish there were more nerdy faggots my age so i get bitter and insult the intelligence of all californians.

dear america: i will happily bet that nine-tenths of yr romanticized back-of-a-truck taste-the-dirt taco joints are not very good

want to clarify something for you here. it's not "the back of a truck." these are big ol trucks with stoves in them in which tacos are made. I can pretty much guarantee you that even here in NC where I live, I could take you to any random taco truck, order at random from their menu, and ten minutes later hear you saying "holy fuck J0hn D. that was spectacular."

can't believe that my flippant envisioning of what indigenous mexican delicacy might be has become a terrifying meme

LJ if this country is ever foolish enough to allow you entry, you have a real food education in store if you want it.

if I were gonna vote in this nonsense no-fucking-way taking sides I'll tell you what the deciding factor would be: mole poblano. if you have not eaten mole, you are 1) hatin it and 2) living in the darkness of ignorance. that is like the most delicious stuff in the world.

almostttttt sounds like he's taking a side here

We can just add his vote to the final tally after polls close. (Note: we actually can't do this.)

can i be really real and say i grew up eating homemade mole and maybe i'm just spoiled but i don't really dig it

or maybe my mom is a bad mole cook or something idk

But there isn't one defining type of mole, right? It tends to vary greatly from region to region, or so I've been told.

mole is fuckin hard to make, i believe. only had it done really well a couple times.

I grew up where the two main ethnic cuisines were mexican and italian. I've had great Mexican food and great Italian food. Italian food has more variety in terms of ingredients, and Italian desserts >>>> Mexican desserts, though mexican fried ice cream is awesome.

dear america: i will happily bet that nine-tenths of yr romanticized back-of-a-truck taste-the-dirt taco joints are not very good

― thomp, Sunday, August 2, 2009 7:16 PM Bookmark

dear thomp: i will happily bet that nine-tenths of yr opinions are rong

whatever advantage italian has over mexican in desserts is erased by mexican superiority in breakfasts

Great Tex-mex is better than great Italian, I think. I've recently discovered an amazing El Salvadoran place in my neighborhood which is my new <3.

xp Hoos - I've had pretty good mole, but mole isn't my thing either. I think J0hn is romanticizing the taco truck up there. I've had some pretty meh taco truck fare.

I gotta go with Italian. Certain regional/provincial cuisines of the Italian peninsula are even better than the whole cuisine of Mexico. Piemonte, Emilia-Romagna, Calabria. Some of the best food there is. Mexican cocina is delicious, but even the seafood doesn't stack up. Pasta owns corn too.

i had an enchilada tonight and it made me want lasagne.

yeah, i've been to plenty of crappy taco trucks

oh duh come on son

you need to curate u taco trucks 1 time

I think J0hn is romanticizing the taco truck up there. I've had some pretty meh taco truck fare.

― free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Sunday, August 2, 2009 8:41 PM Bookmark

It can be, but good taco truck fare >>>>>>>>>>> all your other shit

I have never been to a taco truck!

Pasta owns corn too

See, I love pasta more than I love most things in this world but I think good Mexican is harder to come by than good Italian so that's why it got my vote. I'm now doubting myself though - this is a tough one.

i mean i live in one of the taco truck capitols of the cotdamn world and i know exactly which 2 i would take all yall to for the dopeness

i just don't know what meal is better than stuffed shells

good Mexican is harder to come by than good Italian

you live in Boston.

It is a horrible yet fun contest. I gotta take risotto over rice too.

x-post - True.

surprised that none of the Mexican food proponents have brought up tequila.

Part of what I dig about Mexican food, other than it being the food of my life & childhood & nostalgia & home, is that it can so easily be adapted to a healthier lifestyle

...

whenever I end up with mediocre Italian pasta I don't know what to do but when I end up with mediocre Mexican food I know I can open up a bottle of hot sauce and have a good time

This shit is bananas guys. Plenty of Italian food is healthy as fuck, and so much is vegetarian, as well. Also, hot sauce isn't only for Mexican food wtf, every Italian I know puts chili on everything. EVERYTHING.

Italian, sorry. Variety, homelieness, pride, and COFFEE.

Mexican hot chocolate is pretty fucking awesome. If we're including beverages in this war, it will be a tougher call for me. Margaritas and Mexican hot chocolate are two of my favoritest beverages.

I can't vote against a plate of intense pecorino or romano cheese, some sharp, fennelly home-made garlicky pork sausage, sundried tomatoes, olives, prosciutto, roast capsicum, and chewy ciabatta bread with olive oil for dipping.

I fuck w/ Mexican Coffee til hell

^^^ my motherfucking man

Certain regional/provincial cuisines of the Italian peninsula are even better than the whole cuisine of Mexico.

Just like Italy, there is no "whole cuisine" of Mexico. You have the tacos and burritos and stuff that most people think of as "Mexican Food"* but then there are the variations on things like mole, the more Spanish-style food, the coastal seafood styles, and the direct influence of centuries of native cuisine as well. One of the best Mexican restaurants in Chicago is called Xni-Pec and specializes in Mayan-centric dishes.

*which, as I understand, is primarily Oaxacan style

Don't you mean Wahacan?

fuck I was going to make a joke about that but then I had to go and look up how to actually spell it and forgot

yeah, but let's face it, this thread is tacos vs. spaghetti for most

xp etc

I'm not sure what my view on Mexican would be if I'd grown up in Paris, because what "Tex Mex" seems to mean here is "deep fried". I've posted below a pic of a menu we got in the mail on Friday from a pizza place; "Les Tex Mex" is in the top right corner. This seems to be a pretty standard lineup of Parisian "Tex Mex": always "chicken wings", "nuggets", and "potatoes" (and always those three in English), plus some other bullshit; on this one it's fried calamari (maybe we have the holy grail of a Mexican-Italian alliance?), but on one we got last it week it included what it called a Mexican Roll but which amounted to an egg roll filled with beef, and an "Indonesian chicken curry" (very Mexican, that).

btw on the menu don't sleep on the "Big Mama", great name for a burger no?

http://i26.tinypic.com/2qa06j9.jpg

Italian food has more variety in terms of ingredients

Sorry but this is totally false! Mole poblano, which is just a sauce really, may contain up to 20 ingredients.

Extremely difficult to choose for me though. I voted Mexican, but I had to really think about it, and I'm Mexican. Nothing really beats Italian coffee or gelato... but one should vote Italian without first trying chiles en nogada (which are unfortunately, pretty much impossible to make):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/70900397_208db43019.jpg

I meant "NO one should..."

In a dream recently I moved to Germany to open a restaurant called Taco Ausgezeitnet. Mexican it is.

apparently there are some places near me that make dope versions of chiles en nogada. i believe i must go.

also, had the al pastor super taco tonight with a negra modelo+lime. delicious. i think that i actually might switch loyalties again, from Taqueria El Farolito to Taqueria Cancun....but then again, the chorizo will always be better at El Faro so hmm.

Some spectacular American arrogance on display in this thread. Well done y'all.

Admittedly LJ didn't help the Brit cause but still...

i think that i actually might switch loyalties again, from Taqueria El Farolito to Taqueria Cancun

this is where I'm at right now. Not sure if one has gotten better and the other worse, or my tastes have changed.

It's probably been mentioned upthread, but the inherent problem with this thread is ILX's pan-global nature. Italian restaurants of varying quality are two-a-penny in the UK, while most Englishers' experiences of Mexican involves making it at home with an Olde El Paso Fajita kit. On the other hand, Italian cuisine in the US has become almost entirely its own thing (a bit like Anglo-Indian cuisine in the UK) and from what I understand is quite far removed from original Italian food.

maybe this should have been a US-only thread.

re. European experiences of Mexican food: in the north of Italy a few weeks ago I was in a supermarket and spied a variety of "Mexican food products"...marketed by Uncle Ben's! (with an image below) This is pretty lolworthy to an American b/c in the US Uncle Ben's sells parboiled rice and not much else I think...plus Uncle Ben as depicted on the boxes isn't the kind of guy you'd think would make a good standard-bearer for Mexican food. So mostly lol @ international food corporations. Also 8 flour tortillas for 3 euros is pretty funny; when I lived in south Texas it was more like 100 flour tortillas for a dollar.

http://www.megamodo.com/images/unclebens/mm_formatA4_oriz.jpg

Uncle Ben's make "Chinese" and "Indian" sauces as well as "Mexican" sauces.

Yep, Uncle Ben's was the '80s-'90s standard bearer for pretty much anything more exotic than boiled beef and instant mash. It's since been overtaken by other brands who do pretty much the same thing, but they still do rice/curry/mexican etc.

^ not helping in any UK vs USA beatdown here

as in, dear americans, some of us can cook things that don't come out of a jar, and didn't exist on spotted dick and post-war rationing until uncle ben liberated us in 1980.

On the other hand, Italian cuisine in the US has become almost entirely its own thing (a bit like Anglo-Indian cuisine in the UK) and from what I understand is quite far removed from original Italian food.

tbf, so has Mexican cuisine (ie Tex-Mex), although you can get "authentic" Mexican food pretty much anywhere with a decent Mexican-American population

"authentic" Mexican-style

^better choice of words

Yeah, if Brits are only gonna be forthcoming with opinions and evidence that supports the "douchey" American perpective that we're not allowed an opinion on matters of a linguistic and/or culinary kind, it might help if you would stfu just a little bit.

(i.e. Ailsa otm)

coming next: why Italian food is better because Dolmio sauces are better than Old El Paso.

I'm sure there are plenty of parts of the US where mexican food = stuff from cans and boxes, Taco Bell, Chipotle, Baja Fresh, etc.

I once ate "Mexican" food in Maine and wished it had come out of a box instead.

Dear British people,

Your cheese is better than our cheese.

<3 an American.

Dear Sarah

No shit:
http://blog.hakmao.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/spraycheese.jpg

<3 Britisher

p.s. Thank you for the hand of reconciliation. I <3 American beer btw.

I am having fajitas made with an Old El Paso kit for my dinner tonight by the way, why, because it taste good. Not necessarily authentic, but, y'know, that's OK.

^ spot redundant use of the word "necessarily". And yes, I know I probably ruined my earlier point about not eating food that comes out of a jar. Whatever, I'm lazy, I'm on holiday.

Wahaca is actually a very interesting restaurant because the woman who started it went to Oaxaca and learned to cook Mexican food there after winning Masterchef and she's also committed to minimising food miles, so the queso is a lot like Cheshire cheese, but works. A shitload of burrito carts and low budget Mexican cafés have opened in London w/in the past 18 months and Taqueria is pretty good too.

The only Americans who could possibly compare proper Italian ingredients with London access to same are in New Haven CT. There's only one place to buy tomatillos in London: Borough Market.

Presumably those who have been to actual Italy might be in with a shout as well?

Totally knew Suzy would come through for me on this one. <3

The only Americans who could possibly compare proper Italian ingredients with London access to same are in New Haven CT

good grief.

This Britisher has had Mexican food in California (north and south) and Italian food in Italy and found them both pretty disappointing, and while those meals were most likely not representative of anything at all (tourist doesn't know the good eating places, goes to shitty touristy place near shitty cheap motel at wrong end of town, picks whatever menu item foreign tourist has heard of) I can see this is the kind of thread where such matters are of no concern, so I will lay this flimsy observation out as gospel

but neither of them were as bad as the Italian meals we had while also in California, where everything was served in a thick goop of tomato sauce which tasted mainly of a bucketload of MSG (enough to trigger nauseously-full-after-3-mouthfuls mild allergic reaction, which is pretty impressive considering the junk I regularly eat with no ill effects)... we were probably just unlucky and/or cheap, but if that's what Americans are not voting for, well, nor would I

however your seafoods, bbq, east Asian food, ice cream were A+++ would eat again, better than most of what passes for such things here

Suz perhaps you've heard of this state called New Jersey

There's an even larger state called California. It has several major ports, where large quantities of goods from foreign countries (including Italy) are imported daily.

Italian food in Italy > Mexican food in Mexico > Mexican food in Bristol (OK, really just Casa Mexicana) > Italian food in Bristol (except possibly Marco's) >>>>>>> a bucket of vomit, garnished with shit >>>>>>> Italian food I have eaten in America.

On the other hand, Italian cuisine in the US has become almost entirely its own thing (a bit like Anglo-Indian cuisine in the UK) and from what I understand is quite far removed from original Italian food.

this isnt really true

i can't believe something someone said on this thread isn't true!

Aldo we have more than Spaghetti-Os here u know.

Why would I say that, I love Spaghetti-Os.

This thread is idiotic, even for ILX.

Although I would like to congratulate LJ on a successful trolling, ruined only by the rest of the UK waking up.

J0hn D, compared to what I ate in Florence a few New Years' eves back, in feast mode, that Joisey Eyetalian is some serious red-sauce bullshit.

Burritos are a huge trend in the UK right now; it's a good business plan in a recession to open a burrito café but there was never a market for this before.

My experience of eating in the U.S. (mostly restricted to Cali, Texas and NY) is that good Italian food there is slightly worse than the good Italian food in the UK, but still good, since it's pretty hard to fuck up Italian if you can get the ingredients (Pizza being the obv. exception). U.K. Mexican food is both completely awful and bears no relation to Mexican food. As suzy says, this is changing quite quickly, and if you do this poll in 5-10 years then maybe the Americans won't feel the need to take the Jagger-bait and GIS for yuppy London mexican restaurants.

But I seem to remember this being a poll about Mexico and Italy, rather than ILX, so uh, I prefer Mexican food.

and GIS for yuppy London mexican restaurants.

still, good to know the spirit of gabbneb lives on

Italian food in a surely inauthentic UK style was my favourite food as a kid and I'd demand it pretty much every time we went out, gone off it a bit now as it's getting hard here too to find an Italian restaurant that doesn't make everything brash and over-tomatoey, but steer clear of anything which might be like that and there is still a world of joy out there, plus some crazy good desserts and limoncello to finish.

I may be ineligible to vote, seeing as wandering into three random US-side Mexican places and not knowing what to order is probably not the real deal and my UK hometown's lacklustre new burrito joint is definitely not, but there are many Italian meals I've had which would be hard to beat. Plus Mexican is getting like 6000 votes so I may as well rep for the underdog.

would love gabbneb and dom on this thread

Anyone who orders Mexican food in Britain deserves the slop they end up with - we are TERRIBLE at it, mostly due to us not having any Mexicans. And the one Mexican meal I had in the States was one of the worst meals I have ever eaten in a restaurant. And I have never been to Mexico.

I pretty much have to vote Italian by default.

My issue isn't that Mexican food is bad (I've acknowledged that it can be lovely), more that Italian food is getting a ridiculously bum deal, almost dismissal, from 80% of the people posting to this thread. Mostly Americans.

I mean, I could start on the thousands of different ways in which Italian food attains culinary excellence, I could harp on about the now-closed Centrale, probably the best and cheapest restaurant I've ever been to, I could point out what happens when you introduce drinks to the equation...but this is a losing battle.

Guys I have been to here

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6c/Restaurant_front.png/250px-Restaurant_front.png

and it was pretty good and I also went here

http://www.myrtlebeachscrestaurants.com/restaurants/olive-garden_sm.jpg

and it was pretty good so which one do I vote for?

What would Dom Passantino vote for?

Turkish

we are TERRIBLE at it

lol when are people not from a country good at making that country's food tho?

also Chi-Chi's seems an unfortunate name

In the US in my experience good Italian food is expensive while good Mexican is not. I think that explains the bum deal Italian's getting from Americans. I take it good Italian is not expensive in the UK?

haha, oh God, Olive Garden has the least appetising advertising ever. My brother likes it, so I imagine that makes it terrible.

I take it good Italian is not expensive in the UK?

everything is expensive here

lol chi-chi's!

we do not have an 'oh man I could go for a taco' culture here, this is true

but good Italian is averagely priced here if you fancy a meal of it, as long as you know where to go

I had a good meal in a chi-chi's once....

i used to looooooove chi-chi's when i was like 12

i say meal, more of a light snack

my parents are fond of telling me that my 30 day birthday (Chinese tradition) was held at a Chi-chi's!

this thread is like if you combined pizza hut with a taco bell

What, rubbish and annoying?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/151/424796532_610245e207.jpg?v=0

I also feel that what the Italians have done for coffee and coffee culture has not been represented for enough in this thread so here is a picture of some delicious lattes:

http://www.planet.com.mm/instant/photos/January09/Latte-Art_1.jpg

i ate at one of those in cumberland, md once xxp

fuck me pizza hut is the savagest of all foods

http://www.dailycuteness.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/image01.png

basically the problem with mexican food in the UK, especially those home fajita kits and things like them, is that the dominant herb/spice is cumin rather than coriander, which does not appear _at all_ in most UK mexian food (?!).

I do not pretend that home fajita kits are in any way authentically Mexican, but they are still tasty. I might add in some coriander to the mix though, just to see.

cumin?!

u gotta be fkn cumin me

coriander need to be fresh, don't overdo it, and it doesn't really go with the cumin-y sauce ime, but it is a game-changer.

Italian basics for home cooking are so much cheaper here because of the EU. Additionally, both blueski and I live near all the really good and inexpensive-for-what-it-is Italian food shops in London. The best burrito cart in London, Daddy Donkey, is on Leather Lane.

daddy donkey?! truth is stranger than fiction

'burrito' means little donkey...

they'd be better off calling it daddy wahaca

suzy a lot of "italian basics" grow pretty easily here in the US, especially in the mid-atlantic and california!

as a brit who has eaten often at mexican restos across the US, wahaca is, y'know, not bad at all, and certainly better than any other mex i have eaten in the UK.

italian food leans pretty heavily on a few new world veggies

like bacon and chicken, mmm

http://www.pizzahut.com/tuscanipasta/images/right1299.gif

^VOM. Do not eat.

we also have italian import stores and delis that sell all the non-vegetable stuff cheap

most of the non-vegetable stuff is not, like, that hard to make! with the exception of uhhhh wild boar you can find basically anything youd find in italy here in the US

whereas Mexican food can be pretty hard to make, e.g. the aforementioned chiles en nogada and mole, and even more border-y food like barbacoa.

There's a Mexican place around the corner from Covent Garden that's pretty good. Also they sell about a bazillion tequilas.

My dad would be very disappointed in me as Italian is his favorite but I really have to say Mexican here.

goood italian ingredients are certainly available (and often grown) in the U.S., but they're not used as endemically, even in restaurants, as they are in the U.K.

supermarkets in the U.K. don't sell pinto beans.

Pretty sure Dan is, indeed, talking about Wahaca.

can we clarify what italian ingredients were talking about here?

how do you guys make these blanket statements about the ingredients us italian restaurants use though? xp

Actually I'm talking about Cafe Pacifico.

oops, sorry Dan. Have to give that one a try.

90% of my bad Italian food experiences in the US have been due to overcooked pasta

Highly classified ingredients found: Raw Italian ingredients, CIA ingredients?

will prob vote mexican (tamales are some sublime shit imo, so is just about every other mexican and/or tex-mex dish) but both of these are incredible and two of my favorite cuisines.

also i like how both are more or less easy enough to cook yourself. most of the dishes i cook tend to be mexican- or italian-based

overcooked pasta sucks, ruins a dish no matter how good the sauce is

argh I did it again

There are two restaurants in the vicinity of Covent Garden that are related; when I was meeting up with folks I went to the wrong one and once again here I've namechecked the wrong one.

I meant La Perla on Maiden Lane.

xxxp, spent time in U.S., which is the same way i'm making statements about shitty mexican food in the U.K.

my main criticism of U.S. italian food is, if you pick a place to eat at random, the quality (and style) of the tomato sauce and the rice used in risotto. U.S. italian food is nowhere near the awfulness of U.K. mexican though, and you can find great examples of non-pizza italian without any trouble everywhere i've been except utah.

also i love how grounding and SATISFYING mexican food is - having rice + beans as the foundation for the meal makes me feel so nourished and healthy

Cafe Pacifico appears to be from the same stable as La Perla, where I went last week and which served perfectly good food, rgeardless of its authenticity, but lest we forget my opinion doesn't count being British yawn.

fwiw I have had very good Central American food made by my best friend, who spent 6 months in Guatemala and is the best cook of my age I have ever witnessed. What's the distinction between western-central and Mexican?

Ppl seriously should check out La Perla, it's great

also very easy to get bombed on incredibly nice sipping tequila

xxp, i don't think it's entirely unreasonable to say your opinion carries little weight in a poll where you have little experience of one of the two options, which is true of pretty much everyone in the UK who hasn't been to north america, but by all means carry on helping the americans turn this into a clusterfuck.

why do you guys have all of the fun geography wars when I'm off singing

uh I've spent quite a lot of time in North America. I also have eaten food for most of my 25 years of life.

caek, rebuttal?

I love the cuisines of Mexico but I have to go with Italian on this one.

xxp, ok, good. maybe you can actually state your opinions about the question in the poll and you can probably afford to sign off your posts with less passive aggressive clusterfuck-fodder : )

xp, haha

Sry I know am contributing every bit to the clusterfuck and the pass-agg I regret, i have been baited blah blah blah BUT to say that someone is not entitled to an opinion is pretty galling imo. TO say such a thing and attribute it to some spurious, foundationless claim is even worse. Jeeze this is far too daft a debate to invest this much energy in.

awww

sup

you have a low threshold for being galled!

this may be true.

STOP BEING BRITISH REASONABLE, IT'S NOT AS FUN

that should go in the FAQ

lol when are people not from a country good at making that country's food tho?

Uh, lots of times?. From what I understand most US kitchens of all levels and cuisines are heavily staffed by folks from Mexico and Central America.

yeah I've been to some 'nice' sushi places where the chefs were Hispanic

Italian food where vs mexican food where?

Because Mexican in Austin or Chicago shits all over most american italian, although there are some notable exceptions I've had in New York and Pittsburgh. And how do I compare Italian as made in italy which I have a great experience of with mexican in mexico of which I have none?

Pick whichever straw men opponents result in the best clusterfuck has been the general strategy so far.

oldskoolimagebomb.jpg

Hells bells, what happened here? Anyone would think stuff like this actually mattered.

As a by-the-by though...

supermarkets in the U.K. don't sell pinto beans

http://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Wholesome-Pinto-Beans-Waitrose/33803011

And may I add to Italy's neverending list of great food they have given the world...
http://mealsfromthegirlinthelittleblackdress.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sfogliatelle.jpg

Eaten warm in Naples on a late autumn day was one of the greatest joys of my life.

Yeah non-pizza and pasta based Italian food is being diddled here a bit, I feel.

Italian cheese whips Mexican cheese handily.

What's a cheese whip?

even boring stuff like mozzarella, tomato and olive bruschetta is just the greatest joy, and that's BEFORE you start factoring in the 900 or so different kinds of Italian cheese, most of which are beyond exquisite (taleggio plus baguette plus sundried tomato plus some sort of cured meat = lunch in excelsis)

i mean this is the nation which brought us mascarpone

when i say baguette, i mean ciabatta or foccacia or somesuch, there are many varieties

One unfair strike I am holding against Italian food is that I no longer eat one of my favorite dishes, veal parmesan, because not eating veal is the one dietary-choice-for-ethical-reasons that I've made and stuck to for years; without that in the equation, it's hard for Italian to compete against anything in my book.

so you'd put, say, russian ahead of italian because you're not allowed to eat one solitary dish

dan i <3 you but that is the most batshit thing on this thread

can we do italian breads vs. french breads next

untoasted: french, toasted: italian

Italian chocolate vs Mexican chocolate might be an interesting refinement of this food war.

so you'd put, say, russian ahead of italian because you're not allowed to eat one solitary dish

You are assuming Russian is in my book.

haha fair enough, nothing like a good bowl of borsch mind X-/

also i love how grounding and SATISFYING mexican food is - having rice + beans as the foundation for the meal makes me feel so nourished and healthy

― mark cl, Monday, August 3, 2009 10:07 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

something about this post makes me want to vote against mexican forever - like, vote against it in life itself

one thing i will say is that mexican pastries fucken owne - tho the trick with them is to avoid all the really delectable looking ones and go with something beige, cuz the better a mexican pastry looks, the worse it tastes

Abbacchio alla Cacciatora
Chicken piccata
Gelato in brioche

And Dan if you don't eat veal (which I don't either) make it with chicken!

Italian chocolate vs Mexican chocolate might be an interesting refinement of this food war.

This^^^

just fyi to all both of these are good and u dont really have to choose or vote in the poll or actually even post to this thread

Eat pizza-flavoured Doritos and you can have the best of both worlds.

veal parm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chicken parm

It's like showing someone a picture of a gorgeous chocolate cake and then serving them a slice from a carob substitute.

(Chicken Piccata is awesome tho)

supermarkets in the U.K. don't sell pinto beans.

I've bought refried pinto beans at Sainsbury's.

Also, dan m, you've been to Xni-Pec? How is it? I'd like to go, but Cicero is kind of a hike.

also i love how grounding and SATISFYING mexican food is - having rice + beans as the foundation for the meal makes me feel so nourished and healthy

― mark cl, Monday, August 3, 2009 10:07 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

something about this post makes me want to vote against mexican forever - like, vote against it in life itself

― a narwhal done gored my sister nell (cankles), Monday, August 3, 2009 10:16 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

wtf u on about rice + refried beans are like one the best things about mexican food

Also, dan m, you've been to Xni-Pec? How is it? I'd like to go, but Cicero is kind of a hike.

It was great! The best way I can put it is subtly Mexican... the meat preparations were similar to what you see in most places, but the garnishes and sauces were different. It's hard to describe. Not as across-the-board spicy as your standard Mex either.

at this point all we really need is a sound file of LJ pronouncing the word "taco" with several different inflections and this thread will be perfect

veal parm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chicken parm

heheh, yeah. It's a long time since I ate veal because you can't get the good stuff in the UK since they banned the crates.

at this point all we really need is a sound file photograph of LJ pronouncing the word dressing up like a "taco" with several different inflections toppings and this thread will be perfect

XD

those are the most terrifying scare quotes I have ever seen

http://www.frozenlunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/stoufferschickenparm.jpg

^^ the only good thing Stouffer's has ever produced

quesadilla man in him room

My mom is Italian and her family was in the restaurant business, so I grew up with lots of great Italian food.

That said, I'm still going with Mexican because I simply find myself craving it more often. There's a popular Tex-Mex chain named Chuy's here in Austin that has a location close to my house and they rock my world. Some of the best Enchiladas, Rellenos, and Nachos that I've had.

ok that basically settles it, can we do china vs indian subcontinent now, or maybe cypriot vs spanish

Mexican is SOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD and is always 1/2 the price at least.

china vs indian subcontinent

Christ on a stick, this would be impossible for me

Roast babies v. boiled babies.

I was just thinking about putting Chinese vs. Mexican out there but couldn't come up with a way to handicap Chinese cuisine enough so that Mexican would stand a fighting chance

i would put mexican above everything except indian.

Indian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chinese

that is also how i would break it down , to an extent
xpost

Indian Vs Chinese is the Sophie's Choice of foods for me.

imo Indian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chinese

Malay is much, much closer to India than China on my scale of merit btw

imo food is pretty good so

i prob could never choose between indian and chinese

I don't understand the big deal w Mexican food, you puts some marinated grilled meat on a steamed tortilla and top it w fresh veg combined w a little vinegar & hot peppers I mean it's all chopping and prep and not much cooking. I guess if you get into like cooked tomatillo sauces & three-day-stewed pork that's different but most tacos from most places aren't that big a deal except that the ingreds are just naturally yummy.

Italian food, on the other hand, wins for the combinations of garlic and the Mediterranean herbs (rosemary, basil) and lemon and seafood and (in some regions) butter. That's probably the taste that I crave when I crave anything. Put lemon and butter and garlic and herbs on ANYTHING and fuck me but I'll drink the garlic butter broth by the cupful.

Oh also I don't like cilantro or mole or biting into onions, so Mexi is hit-or-miss for me and I end up picking it apart unless I made it myself.

Laurel is pretty much coming from where I'm at (her first post at any rate; I do like mole, and find Mexican food to be reliably tasty if not mindblowing). The way Italians dress seafood is just beautiful.

Maybe I am used to New Mexico-style Mexican food, which is kind of MIND-BLOWING. If you ask for mole here people laugh tho ;_;

I swear the Hatch green chile kind of makes me high.

I really, really, really want to get high on green chiles.

I thoroughly enjoy Mexican and Mexican-related foods!! But I think in terms of being more than the sum of its parts, tacos and burritos and fajitas and so on are just good, fresh things served together and are individually delicious, therefore the sum total is delicious. Whereas Italian dishes become magic when you put certain things together and cook them a certain way.

FYI guys, I just made some tasty guacamole and you guys can't have any

There is a place on campus that has homemade tortillas that are NOM (and probably mostly flour) – freaking RELLENO burrito w/a whole chile relleno inside + beans & rice & green chile sauce and only $3 and oh god if it wasn't 100+º F out right now I would buy one and die of glorious delciousness overload.

Whereas Italian dishes become magic when you put certain things together and cook them a certain way.

But this is true of Mexican food also.

Italian > Chinese > Mexican > Indian > German

I have an Rx for a quality life and that Rx is put green chiles in everything.

But if you're going to rep for really specialized authentic Mexican things being better than Italian, you have to allow that there is way better pasta etc than is found in supermarkets. If you imagine magical Mexican lady making everything from scratch over a 3-day period, you have to allow a magical Italiam grandma doing the same -- incl freshly made pasta, for starters, that has never been dried and boxed and shipped across the country.

However it is true that the imaginary Mexican abuela sells her magical tacos cheaper, because she's still an illegal immigrant and so is everyone who lives in her two-room apartment, and her great-grand-children will be the first native English speakers in the family. Italians got a headstart on that one. But it'll all even out in a couple hundred years.

Both types of cuisine can be exceptionally awesome. I have had terrible experiences with both, however, I assume that the variations in quality I experience in America have to be somewhat mirrored in the UK. Never had Italian food in Italy, but have had lots of Mexican in Mexico and it is fucking fantastic, and the cheap and delicious beer is a nice touch.

Also, taco trucks are def. over-romanticized because people order food from them either during their hideously bland and boring day jobs at lunch hour or on the weekend late at night when they are totally shitfaced. Also they provide you with delicious sides such as e. coli and salmonella.

However, I have been to fancy "real" Italian places and honestly the food is so rich I can usually only get through a few bites and then have to box it up like a man with no nuts, whereas I can usually gorge myself at similarly fancy and "real" Mexican places.

Thus, I voted Mexican. And this is about cuisine only! Cheeses, breads and other such items seem to be a different question to me, and while Mexico has a small handful of delicious cheeses, Italy seems to have a whole universe of cheeses. Tex-Mex has cornbread though, and that stuff can be amazing.

It doesn't really help that my town is:

Mexican restaurants = one on every streetcorner, 80%+ of which are AWESOME.

Italian restaurants = Olive garden.

other false dichotomies: pesto >> mole, bolognese >> taco meat

I will say that the most delicious spaghetti I have ever had in my entire life was made by an Italian missionary 15,000 feet above sea level in Peru, so impossibly good that even in my altitude sickness induced haze I could only sit back in awe of how great it was

Laurel I am not talking about some Platonic abeulita, who's all like 'mija fetch me some fore lard,' who I'm sure wld not compare to Platonic Italian gramma.

I do have to say that menudo is *96 tears* but I have never been one for the tripas. I am sure Italian has some similarly inapproachableequiv, does anyone know?-to-Americans

inapproachable-to-Americans equiv

mexican food requires assembly, it's true, but don't underestimate how that meat or those beans are cooked/seasoned. if they weren't seasoned, it would be pretty gross. sometimes it's the stuff you don't see that makes mexican food so delish and it is more than the sum of its parts -- there's alchemy in mexican food too. (the roasting of the tomatillos for salsa verde, for instance)

East Med (Turkish, Cypriot, Lebanese) = Italian >> Greek >> French = Iranian > Indian >> Spanish/Portuguese > German > British > Malay >> Argentine >>>>>>> Chinese >>>> everything else >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Russian

btw

equals?

how the hell can anyone rank German food above Chinese food

eat some kuchen dude and stumm

Live in Germany for a while and hau ab.

Chinese cusines are definitely better than most German food, imho. Heck, Chinese food is the equal of anywhere, food-wise.

How can anyone make a sauce of a wheel of cheese & a box of luxury chocolates & pour it on an innocent tilapia dish, Dan?

make that some stollen

dude i lived in berlin for 2 weeks and it was probably the best quality-of-food-to-price ratio i have ever experienced in my life

I lived in Stuttgart for 3 months and the food was good but come the fuck on

by lived don't you just mean holidayed? xp

i guess i just value cake above noodles ^_^

i mean stayed with my now-ex actually

best quality-of-food-to-price

get thee to one Sichuan province

THE SAUCE IS YR ALBATROSS LOOUUIISS

I hear they know how to cook up a nice plate of albatross in Germany.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3249/3076091877_b16294260a.jpg

^^would probably cost $3 max in China

I guess that's true, Amanda. But I can't eat salsa verde cos of cilantro. :( I guess most Mexi I have is JUST assembly. I don't find the restaurant rice-and-beans to be any better than I could do at home with some onions and tomatoes, that doesn't seem like anything alchemical so far.

German sweets are probably better than Chinese sweets, but the sheer breadth of Chinese cooking carries it past German cooking, not that I actually loathe German food or anything; I've eaten very well in Germany and Austria.

Mexican mole is definitely way beyond assembly.

i WILL confess ignorance of chinese food approaching my ignorance of mexican, but the DNA of chinese food is rarely more than 'very pleasant' for me. soup noodles are awesome but it's always 9in my experience) just a bit glutey, a bit smushed-together, lacking the airy delicacy or vibrant tastes of my favourite cuisines. the textures you get in chinese food are lovely mind. that picture does look somewhat enticing.

where to start with chinese food if i want my conceptions smashed?

if I were gonna vote in this nonsense no-fucking-way taking sides I'll tell you what the deciding factor would be: mole poblano

this is precisely what tipped my vote to mexican. these are my 2 favorite cuisines, though, and on any given day I could vote for either.
Tiramisu is great, but have y'all ever had a really good tres leches cake? cause that shit will alter your consciousness.

yall are so fuckin weird about food

I had mole once at a place where everything else is good, and I thought it was horrible. I know I should try again but eh.

chinese food is terrible on average in the U.K., LJ.

but i think even when it's done well in china or california or wherever, it sucks if you don't eat meat (e.g. you are me).

max you should start a food restaurant

(also yeah, pak choi is just about the best vegetable when done well, but if this makes sense, its outstanding characteristics are more or less universal throughout chinese food: the textures, the crunchy, slippery, gelatinous glurp of it all)

i can imagine it sucking without the meaty textures to offset the glurp

caek - I spent about a week and a half with a bunch of vegetarians in the middle of bumfuck Guangxi and enjoyed delicious vegetarian cuisine...stir fried vegetables are godly

Laurel sorta gets at this above, but there are two tiers for both of these things, and I honestly don't know how well Americans (leave alone British people) are placed to compare them, barring foodie types who've made a point of finding out. On the first tier there's Italian food on the common level of, like, pasta, lasagna, etc., along with pretty much the majority of what's known as "Mexican" in the U.S. (burritos, tacos, etc.) Then on the other tier there are the more "real" and/or sophisticated Italian things a lot of us have some exposure to from going to nice Italian restaurants and such -- the regional dishes, the seafood dishes, the whole array of it. I don't think many of us get much exposure to that tier in terms of Mexican food! I certainly don't claim to. And like Laurel saying this:

you puts some marinated grilled meat on a steamed tortilla and top it w fresh veg combined w a little vinegar & hot peppers I mean it's all chopping and prep and not much cooking

-- I mean, this is a reference to a little slice of common/easy Mexican food not super-dissimilar from saying "you boil some noodles and toss some tomato paste on it and that's all Italian is."

To be honest I've not always been a huge fan of some elements of traditional/authentic Actual Mexican Cooking, but like I said, I don't have a massive amount of experience with it, and I doubt a ton of people here do. Other parts I love like crazy. There's a lot of it, and I'm pretty sure we all know a lot more Italian than we do Mexican.

how the hell can anyone rank German food above Chinese food

merits lifetime ban imo

chinese food is terrible on average in the U.K., LJ

it's like the other exteme to mexicans (not enough of them for the food to have taken off, causing complacency), saturation of the market - causing complacency

Also please note that "Mexican food" sorta includes CHOCOLATE

garlic, cumin, and epazote make my beans pretty great imo, and that's just a bunch of lousy black beans. are you using dried beans or canned beans? too bad about the cilantro/onions -- they are delicious.

i can't decide to vote in the poll but am leaning toward mexican.

where to start with chinese food if i want my conceptions smashed?

generally the most flavorful/pungent cuisine is found in northern China and southwestern China. probably the best would be to take a 2 week sojourn to Chengdu and just wander around tasting everything

most of the Chinese food outside of China was created by Guangdong/Fujian immigrants, and while Cantonese cuisine is great when done well, it requires a lot of skill, and most Chinese-American food is pretty awful when compared to its original inspiration

not that I don't fuck with General Tso's chicken every once in a while

stir fried veg are ok once in a while, but i have a crude palate and they don't really taste of enough to me.

tacos and burritos and fajitas and so on are just good, fresh things served together and are individually delicious, therefore the sum total is delicious.

unfair to compare mexican snacks/appetizers to italian cuisine as a whole.

Pretty sure that ILXors have seeked out certain kinds of "authentic"-y Mexican foods at a greater rate than the gen pop. So I assume that when I'm posting, people reading it HAVE gone beyond the taco, the fajitas, and so on. But the taco IS the beating heart of Mexican food, I think -- made of fresh native ingreds, presented in a portable package, made for the working person to take along. So it's not a totally spurious argument.

but i think even when it's done well in china or california or wherever, it sucks if you don't eat meat (e.g. you are me).

this is crazy talk by the way! Chinese vegetarian options are so plentiful that if you're veg & traveling the best thing to do is just look for the Chinese restaurants & you're in.

caek - that's what I've always thought too but man, these were godly

World class wines (wine with food is very important to me, which is eurocentric, to be sure, but few countries can match the wine-food pairing of Italy.)
Salumeria
World class cheeses
Perhaps the best vegetable handling on the planet
Excellent seafood, easily a match for Mexican
There are several Italian stews which are the equal of mole poblano. Italian slow-cooking, unlike the pasta/marinara cusine so widely known in the U.S., is phenomenal.

going to Chengdu for two weeks for the sole purpose of eating would be something like this:

http://deadon.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/land_of_chocolate.jpg

where everything is made of delicious Chinese food instead of chocolate

-- I mean, this is a reference to a little slice of common/easy Mexican food not super-dissimilar from saying "you boil some noodles and toss some tomato paste on it and that's all Italian is."

yes, this. jesus.

GD, if I had to compare tacos to, say, aged, preserved meat, sharp, dry Italian cheeses, olives aged in seasoned brine, and whatever else is in yr basic antipasto, Italian would still win.

I had mole once at a place where everything else is good, and I thought it was horrible. I know I should try again but eh

you really have to have it at a place that specializes in it. even most good mexican restaurants just reconstitute a paste for their mole.

dreaming of eggplant parmesan currently

xp fair enough, Laurel. can't say i disagree, really.

Laurel I'm not saying people haven't experienced authentic Mexican food, I'm saying -- or "firmly guessing" -- that the average ILXor has experienced way more of the total array of Italian cuisine, from common to sophisticated, from region to region, than he/she has of Mexican cuisine.

even most good mexican restaurants just reconstitute a paste for their mole

served between two intact moles

John D: I'm not saying it's hard to get vegetarian options in Chinese restaurants, it's easy (easiest?). I'm saying they tend to be either bad or boring to me. But Chinese is one of those things I have made almost no effort to eat outside the UK, so I'm probably missing out.

And I'm not saying that to gainsay anyone's opinion, because I don't even know enough of the full spread of Mexican to say I love it all -- I'm just saying most of us are surely comparing from sort of a skewed position, except for anyone who just so happened to start their day with some chilaquiles.

Re cumin in beans: a half-Mexican friend of mine from Albeqqqqqueqqque thinks that cumin in beans is an abomination that shows the cook doesn't know anything about Mexican food. I think he's crazy, I love cumin in beans...but...I love sour cream, too, and jack cheese on things. Lots of cheese. Obv I have no proper authentic taste!

p.s. someone help me with my risotto emergency!, i am getting hungry.

http://image2.sina.com.cn/cul/s/2004-05-20/U136P60T4D57805F49DT20040520200932.jpg

^^ order this without the ground beef and you will be in tofu heaven

Have never tried epazote, though I used to see bushels of it at my old supermarket. Worth doing, you say?

just fyi guys i am a certified expert on authentic Italian cuisine AND authentic Mexican cuisine so if you have any questions i am here for you

lol you come from chicago, you don't get to have opinions about either

Re cumin in beans

I really misread this

chinese food prob has the biggest quality gap between inauthentic and authentic. i can eat americanized mexican or italian and love it without reservation, but americanized chinese is some foul shit.

i just feel like italian offers so many staples that it would be way too hard to vote mexican. a life without pizza and pasta is really not a fair one.

n/a, don't you refuse to eat tomatoes? Or have I confused you with someone else who's food issues are 902485384548x worse than mine?

here are my certificates:
http://www.language-stickers.co.uk/Images/Certificate%20-%20Italian%20(50%25).JPGhttp://www.dagobahcockers.com/Duncan_MexChCert.jpg

i would die w/o pinto beans but i can go months w/o pasta or pizza or any type of cheese so

Dear n/a: this thread has made me hungry. How can I make a chile relleno from common office supplies? I have binder clips, a stapler, some pens, some chopsticks, and a USB coffee-warmer.

(xpost caek Chicago has one of the highest concentrations of Mexicans outside the southwest.)

put the stapler in the microwave

i was just clusterfucking, xp

(and a shitload of people of italian ancestry. also, n/a isn't from chicago)

A+ caek, the rest of you need to really get into the spirit of the geography war

i dunno
a mexican lady in my class taught me how to make beans a la her family, so people'smmv on cumin in beans
whatev

I like cumin in other things, myself

hahahaha

either of these 2 would beat any other cuisine easy but i'm having an impossible time choosing between them

i would like oops to tell me where i am from

Amanda, I totally agree. My roommate INSISTS that she can't find a "good" quesadilla in NYC (she's also half-Mexican and from LA) and I don't know what she's smoking or what she thinks makes a quesadilla "good" because that's just certifiable. I mean it's cheese on a tortilla with some shit in there per your requests off the menu, what could go wrong? But....

xp Her favorite food is also a grilled-cheese sandwich on Wonder bread AND she just became a vegetarian, so I mostly ignore her.

(you're a military brat ie from hell)

(i just made that up)

xp to laurel-- amen to that

n/a is from the future

Why do I think n/a is from Tennessee or thereabouts?

Ingredients

* 2 binder clips per serving
* stapler cut in slices (the size of a french fry)
* 1 or more pens beaten with a little water for pen mixture
* chopsticks
* USB coffee warmer

Preparation

* Roast, peel and remove the seeds from the binder clips.
* Place 2 to 3 slices of stapler in each binder clip, secure with chopsticks.
* Dip stuffed binder clips in pen mixture.
* Place each binder clip on waxed paper until all are stuffed.
* Heat USB coffee warmer.
* Cook binder clips on all sides until golden brown in color.

this is a digression but i just wonder because i have lived in chicago longer than i've lived anywhere else in my life but i agree that i'm not really "from" here but i should shift this over to my blog of personal reminisces and authentic mexican and italian recipes

sorry my recipe wasn't funny but i'm more of a memoirist/epicure than a humorist

also laurel i come from an ethnic population whose people cannot completely digest tomatoes; however, i have overcome this obstacle to become a certified expert on authentic (AUTHENTIC) mexican and italian cuisine

your recipe is funny and i wish to give you a book deal

n/a your recipe gave me lots of lols, and I have all the ingredients around my house so tonight is rellenos!

Guys I dare any of you to hate on asadero cheese.

That's brilliant! I come from an ethnic population (like most of the world's population) that doesn't properly digest fresh dairy products but I have overcome this handicap to love all dairy, of all kinds, especially cheese. Which I'm pretty sure makes me an expert on Mexican food as reimagined by Americans with access to a lot of dairy products and not a lot of epazote/rellenos/spiciness, not that they would eat them if they could.

Laurel I know people in NYC do not want to believe this, but it can require a little legwork here to eat Mexican food in the style and of the standards that people from elsewhere -- mostly the southwest -- are used to.

(This may or may not be related to the surety of a lot of New Yorkers that there are a lot of Mexicans around, when really there have not been that many until recently, and some people are getting confused by Hondurans and Guatemalans and such.)

also laurel i come from an ethnic population whose people cannot completely digest tomatoes

Wow, never heard of this. What population?

fullofshittians

What are the Italian equivalents of:

Pibil
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oMwyK0LBBik/RpFTXZ28-hI/AAAAAAAAAys/0Yq5I4Z3eqE/s320/pibil+done.jpg

Carnitas
http://goodiesfirst.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/16/pork_carnitas.jpg

Cause if there's some tricked out boar shit going on there, I might be regretting my vote.

people cannot completely digest tomatoes

I would have to consider suicide.

both sides really rocking the whole "grill an octopus" thing

for the record I come from an ethnic population half-responsible for the guy who played Ozone in the Breakin movies, so I would know

I dunno but I had wild boar ragout at Lydia whatsits casual restaurant last year! It was, while extremely delicious, not as gamey and deep and meaty as I expected. I'll bet it could be, though -- it was just the house pasta dish of the evening, so probably not like the most important thing in the kitchen that night.

There's lots of boar in Italian cooking. Cinghiale.

Plus, Italian cuisine has its own 'sashimi', crudo.

I know Mr. White but what are they doing with it? All I know is sausage and stew which is great and all but doesn't hold a candle to the two Mexican pork preparations I mentioned (plus there's al pastor nomnomnomnom).

nabisco, do you have any one-upmanship threats that do not involve dancing & octopuses?

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1214/naboctopus.jpg

nice kicks nabisco

the octopus represents Turbo!

GD, boar is used in ragus and salume, mostly, I think but it depends on what part of the country as to what they're doing with it. Boar is pretty popular in Sardinia, I believe.

Man, now I want suckling boar stewed in wine. I had a civet de sanglier once in Moustier Ste. Marie that was delectable.

Grilled octopi are tasty but I think I gotta go with the ceviche de polpe on that one.

octopodes

It's like he has 8 legs! (multiple x-post)

its mexican, btw

East Med (Turkish, Cypriot, Lebanese) = Italian >> Greek >> French = Iranian > Indian >> Spanish/Portuguese > German > British > Malay >> Argentine >>>>>>> Chinese >>>> everything else >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Russian

btw

How long did you spend coming up with this convoluted equation?

I Love Italian but could definitely go for some pibil right about now.

desperately want a beige mexican pastry right now

There's Prosciutto, Pancetta, Coppa, Culatello, Soppressata, Mortadella, salami and italian sauage flavored with anise. What italian food does with tomatoes is amazing, and there's olive oil. Yet chorizo and queso might be better than all of italian cured meats. This is a hard poll.

Can I count "New Mexican" as a subset of "Mexican?" Cause that would make my decision much easier.

Is Soppressata Italian? For some reason, I thought it was Spanish?

Is there anything in italian food like mole sauce?

Is there anything in Mexican food like pesto?

Soppressata is a definitely italian.

Soppressata is awesome.

I would take Guacamole or pico de gallo over pesto any day,

pico de gallo is vaguely pestoesque. can't think of a mexican nuts/herb/cheese/garlic/oil paste, though.
xp

I don't think basil is used in much mexican food?

I like basil and cilantro equally.

chimichurri isn't mexican but it's very much like pesto minus the chz and nuts (ie herb paste/sauce)? ok i'm stretching it.

but pico de gallo bruschetta sounds pretty good.

Could one say that lard or fat is used in mexican food in the way olive oil is used in italian food?

And is butter used in much the same way in both countries?

Can I count "New Mexican" as a subset of "Mexican?" Cause that would make my decision much easier.

That's the definition from which I'm operating, nabs, esp since a lot of people here seem to be equating Mexican food w/taqueria food. One region > one truck, as a category.

There's a place called Roberto's in town with a big sign reading NEW MEXICAN MEXICAN FOOD.

Soppressata is a definitely italian.

― Jacob Sanders, Monday, August 3, 2009 5:14 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah but there is aslo majorcan sobrasada

http://www.embotitsartesansmonts.com/biomonts/images/productes/Sobressada-Mitjans.jpg

good stuff

carne asada are you voting for Mexican food?

I think I’m obligated to

I've had both the Spanish and Italian types and both are delicious.

yeah wtf do Italians eat for breakfast? google turns up "coffee and bread" and if that's the case, I feel much more comfortable with my vote for Mexican.

Italian breakfast is closer to my breakfast ... still undecided.

in Sicily you can get Gelato and brioche for breakfast

http://ericademane.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/brioche.jpg

A+++

that is horrifically beautiful.
I see recipes for breakfast lasagna, but obv that's something that only an American would dream up.

http://www.espressoplanet.com/images/moka%20express.jpg

^^ all you need for breakfast; one of the most potent devices ever devised for extracting the maximum amount of caffeine from the bean

that'd be great if coffee in any form wasn't as vile as stale monkey piss.

(really need monkey piss to be fresh from the source in my experience)

http://gifattack.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/monkey-piss.gif

that'd be great if coffee in any form wasn't as vile as stale monkey piss.

Statements like this will get you no points.

moka thing is GREAT if you only want to make/drink one cup of coffee, too...love those things.

I drink coffee daily and coffee from a moka pot makes me go into Jittery Joe mode

pretty sure veal parmesan, eggplant parmesan etc isn't italian food but w/e

Wow, I may have to get me one of those then. (xpost)

yeah the key is to brew it over the lowest heat yer burner will go to. fill it with fine to medium ground coffee, preferably freshly ground from a burr grinder - don't pack it. it'll take what seems like forever for it to brew but when it does, oh man. the more time it takes the coffee to brew the more caffeine you extract (and the more bitter it will be); that's why espresso's caffeine content is actually not that high, since the extraction time is relatively short. coffee from a moka will be dark and liquor-ish - not quite espresso, not quite drip coffee - and the recommended serving is around 50 mL per - so when you get a '6-cup maker' you're only really making about 180 mL of coffee!

also part of the lore is to apparently ever only use hot water to clean it, so you get a build up of coffee oils - be warned that this can cause the thing to smell rancid over time/if left in storage

yea moka's are dope imo

tho i can't really handle the caffeine, i haven't made coffee out of mine in a while

I travelled and ate a bunch around Mexico and Italy and , para mi, Italian food in Italy >>> Mexican food in Mexico. Sorry. A good part of the stuff I encountered in Mexico was just o_O and not in a good way (¿chapulines? ¿tacos de ojo???? ¿some sort of lizard stew in Puebla?????) whereas delish and totally not O_o eats were to be had all around da boot. So I vote Italian.

BEAR tacos?

oh wait that's oso

EYE tacos?

oh man i am so dumb sometimes

o_sO ??

i don't know like ojo is one of the first words you learn but i just wanted it to be oso

Yes, eye tacos everywhere. Watching me.

Taco eyes
Watching you
You eat their every move

¿chapulines? ¿tacos de ojo???? ¿some sort of lizard stew in Puebla?

Sounds like whoever you went with just wanted to show you the weird part of Mexican food. I mean, yeah some people eat that stuff but its not considered a delicacy or anything -except for maybe chapulines, which some people (not me) are crazy about... and it's not that common either. Basically you can make tacos out of pretty much anything.

I drink coffee daily and coffee from a moka pot makes me go into Jittery Joe mode

Wow dude, never come to melbourne, your head will explode... all coffee here is at least as strong as stovetop (no one here drinks wissy dripolator stuff).

hah drinking stovetop daily was what made me quit coffee cold turkey a year ago...now I'm at about a single cup a day, brewed using low caffeine extraction methods

TEX MEX

HORCHATA!

Maybe it's because my weary adult cynicism emerged after words like "tex-mex" and "mexi-" (which I think are very 1980s) had already been overwritten on the palimpsest of regional food crazes, but there you have it. I was a child in the 1980s. Mexican food seemed aimed directly at me: the colour, the fun, the accompanying imagery and music.

The recent (drab, adult) plague of Tuscan-identified food items is pretty grim. Most of these items have even less relation to this Tuscany region (which everybody seems to be such a fucking expert on, by the way, not like the loopy, baffled way we greeted Mexican stuff in the 1980s) than supermarket salsa has to the real thing. It's because of this that Italian food in the past few years chiefly reminds me of the accelerating tailspin of internet-abetted food politics (take ILE, for example, on average how many food threads were there five years ago?) and increasingly shallow claims on the part of food manufacturers who all seem to be conspiring to re-brand everything as "Tuscan" without any discernible motive, or perhaps simply because they ran out of ideas and decided to brand Italy twice, or something. (See also "Italian Grilled Sandwiches" which make me really fucking angry.)

Aside from the Tuscan craze, my interest in real-ish Italian food is often deadened by the purism and conservatism which non-Italians have so readily gone to bat for. I'm sorry dudes but I'm not paying $15 for a pizza with three little blobs of mozzarella, some basil leaves, and a bit of tomato. In the 80s we sort of fumbled our way through the regional food crazes, but we we knew we weren't being conned by Mexican food (even if we didn't really know what it was).

Mexican food seems to have trundled along nicely, staying happy and colourful for the last 20 years. It has certainly grown a lot but it seems to have better reconciled itself with its illegitimate "inauthentic" offspring (let's just, for the sake of argument, leave pizza aside on this one) as well as its unexpected hybrids.

Mexican food!

I've grown up around 1st and 2nd gen Italians all my life, so regional foods I am very familiar with. Abruzzese soups are awesome, and Calabrese sausages are something else (my bf's fam are calabrese, the little mafiosos). Calling things "Tuscan" to suggest some kind of broad brush of regional, peasant food is lazy and a bit dated, to me. Maybe things are very different in Aus though: very very large and strong Italian community here, and very non existent Mexican one.

By which I mean I'm kind of agreeing with you in a way, fields!

that fields of salmon post seems to have been beamed directly from Mars. tuscan craze? wha? oh, usapaws. if you're being served a pizza like that then your entire nation has failed. i refer you to M White's posts upthread for an insight into the true 'conservatism' of italian cuisine

Had tomatoes, basil, mozzarella, with olive oil, salt, and pepper tonight. Six ingredients, plus bread - you cannot fuck with this for dinner when it's like 95 out and you don't want to cook anything. Nothing against Mexican at all, cause some sort of seviche would have been equally great under these conditions, but this is what I think of when I think about Italian food.

Why should I have to choose at all?

country matters, Pizza Hut is even in on calling things "Tuscan."

http://www.pizzahut.com/tuscanipasta/images/right1299.gif

Also re: "if you're being served a pizza like that"

Just wait, the tyranny of the "authentic margherita pizza, made according to the pizza purity act of 1765 or whatever the fuck" snoozefest will be coming to the UK any time soon.

I miss the days when Pizza Hut was stapling 3 pizzas together & then stuffing the crust with two more pizzas.

I remember when I was a kid seeing commercials for something called the PRIAZZO ITALIAN PIE from pizza hut and being sad because we didn't have a pizza hut in our town. But I also knew that this was some made up crazy shit that only existed at pizza hut.

Pizza Hut only offers the finest authentic offerings, such as the P'Zone.

http://images.forbes.com/media/2009/07/01/0701_PizzaHut.jpg

http://www.retailerdaily.com/uploads/tiny-bites.jpg™

I am bemused by the idea of calling something an Italian pizza. Thats like calling something a foot-based shoe.

hey yall I don't think anyone has mentioned the benefits of

http://www.foodiebytes.com/image/iotd/tamale.jpg

to the mexican side of the argument

btw fields totally otm about people buying into myths about boring pizza purism

just fyi fields of salmon there are still a lot of pizza places where you can get a slice for $2

tamale has been mentioned, and that's the sort of glorious ancient foodstuff that still is present in Mexican but is absent in modern Italian. Thankfully so, too, going off of what I've read about Italian cuisine from ancient Rome up through the Middle Ages. When I eat a tamale, I'm eating something very very similar to what Mayan dudes carried with them on hunting and war expeditions, and that's just awesome.

^^^the unctuous sentiment of this post genuinely angers me

M White's posts upthread for an insight into the true 'conservatism' of italian cuisine

Not sure exactly what you mean, here, but I can tell you from personal experience that I have found Italians to be among the most hidebound conservatives food-wise, I have ever seen.

Mmmm, tamales...

and that's the sort of glorious ancient foodstuff that still is present in Mexican but is absent in modern Italian.

Utter nonsense. Have a glass of wine. Eat some olives. Munch on some bread, etc.

i was referring to a supposed conservatism of variety, which your array of delights somewhat exploded. the individuals involved in producing the food may be conservatives, but the cuisine itself draws from numerous different sources, surely?

yeah that'll really fill me up

otm re: italians being so conservative, didnt they pass that law earlier this year banning ethnic restaurants?
xxpost

They are fiercely local and their pride in place is perhaps all they've got left in that regard as they're not particularly religious anymore and their national pride is somewhat shallow. The variety of foods in Italy is impressive but if you ever travel with them out of the country, they get very pissy about food and don't enjoy themselves as much as they should. I know that's a rather huge generalization, but in so many instances, from Italians here in SF, to Italians I met or knew in London, in Paris, and an Italian ex-girlfriend I knew who lived in London and whose family had property in the Caribbean, they constantly irked me with their utter refusal to eat anything but their own cooking.

Also, GD, excuse me if I find your last post disinegenuous.

lj wouldn't it kinda be neat to eat stuff that ancient Romans took with them to battles? or is that too an unctuous sentiment that would send you into a dither, my dear boy?

your argument is that italians still eat bread, olives, and fermented grape juice? seriously?

tbh i wouldn't give a toss as long as it was nice, i mean sure it's good that a recipe can stand the test of time, but i was objecting to your wistful romanticism of what is basically just a foodstuff made from ingredients that haven't had time to evolve in the past 2000 years, and moreover that you'd used this as a means to lever mexican above italian, which as M White says, has had several long-running staples of its own

it it was an actual tamale taken into battle by a mayan, then i'd be impressed

fossilised, unearthed, and briefly sauteed to serve

lj, fie! Tamales are steamed!

your lack of wonder geniunely angers me. ok it doesn't, it's just kinda lame.

I remember seeing some Mario Batali show where a guy in Modena was showing off his family's balsamic vinegar barrels that had been in continuous use for 400 years - the smallest, final barrel in the series of 7 had actually soaked through with vinegar and had new wood staves built around it.

I love this kind of traditional stuff, and that there are councils of people who have to approve your vinegar or cheese before it can be called a certain name, but I can see how it would get restrictive and lead to elitism or conservatism.

I think the essence of what lj means, GD, or at least as I understand it, is pick whichever cuisine you prefer, but by making reference to the age of a recipe, you're not really making any reference to its flavor or to the enjoyment one gets out of eating it. It's cool to think that tamales have changed little since pre-Columbian days but that's not much a condiment imho.

whenever i eat houmous i think to myself 'this is my nation, my history'

conservatism of recipe is good when it comes to honing a specific dish. my argument is that italy is a nation full of these honed recipes, and that dilettantish sorts like myself can just pick and choose in, erm, wonderment

joygoat, I think it's mostly a positive, actually. I just wish they were a little more open to other people's venerable traditions. I knew a photographer who I saw in Paris once and I brought over some nice French cheeses for a little soiree he was having and I asked him what he thought of the cheese in France (knowing that Italians and he, in particular liked them some cheese) and he sniffed that the French didn't have any hard cheese to match Italy's. The fact that petulance was his first reaction disappointed me.

taco bell v sbarro amirite everybody

Point me to where I said that elevates Mexican above Italian, or where I said that ancient connection makes tamales taste better. They wouldn't still be being eaten and loved if they didn't taste great duh.

btw it was mentioned in the OP but not in the thread iirc, but sambuca is a delicious thing to sip on after a meal isn't it

I prefer Fernet

that's the fruitiest use of the word 'condiment' i've ever seen, like it...also yeah that's what i'm saying. well done the tamale, mind, you roll strong...GD your implication was that it was a plus-point for Mexican above Italian. i'm not denying that it is lovely but there probably isn't an ancient delicacy, proven to be nice, with a surviving recipe, which isn't eaten somewhere in the world today

there's something about prideful italian petulance which is kind of awesome, and i am inclined to pass it off as part of a national character which ensures excellence in food, feuds and football support

the vanity of small differences was never more courageous than when expressed by a mediterranean

They wouldn't still be being eaten and loved if they didn't taste great duh.

That's debatable, depending on the evolution of taste. Tomales are, in asnese, though little different from bread + nutritionally speaking. Corn (staple) plus filling, say meat (protein). A Roman eating wheat bread plus cheese or fish would be getting about the same nutrients and bread has been the staple of most of Europe since pre-historic times.

the vanity of small differences was never more courageous than when expressed by a mediterranean

this stands for vanity in general, surely?

nah i'm just trying to assuage my guilt for voting against my own heritage.

I sometimes think that Italian football support is actually one of the most positive nationalist sentiments in Italy; when I lived in Milan, many Northerners were downright racist about Southerners.

Unctuous is a pretty curious insult.

Sorry, you're not going to convince me that modern Italian cuisine bears more than the tiniest of a resemblance to ancient Roman cuisine.

Oh, I wasn't trying, GD. You're right about that except for the basic point I was making; the staples are still largely the same; wheat, olives, grapes

Well indeed. Their valour isn't in question. xps to MW

...and pasta and tomatoes

Dude what blows my mind abt Meso-American corn goods (such as tamales, hominy, masa harina, corn tortillas) is they somehow figured out that they needed to soak it in lye! This converts the B vitamins in it to a form usable by humans. They wld not have gotten niacin from it otherwise & wld have died from pellagra! (This was a disease endemic in the poor U.S. south in the early 1900s, bcz their corn mash DIDN'T have available niacin, nor did the other components of their diet such as molasses & salt pork.) So my question is: how do you figure out how to soak something in lye? Does that not seem counterintuitive? But it allowed them to survive. THAT SHIT IS CRAZY.

(I think my cuisine biases come from my preference of rice & corn products to wheat products.)

it's aMAIZEing

Pasta is still wheat-based and it's not like Mexican food isn't full of ingredients that were brought over by the Spanish or later immigrants.

x-post

In the pedantic spirit of this thread, I feel compelled to mention that the singular form of "tamales" is "tamal."

¡tamal, por favor!

(does por fabor mean anything or does my neighbor not know how to spell on her crazy hand-painted signs that all have POR FABOR in pink at the bottom?)

how do you figure out how to soak something in lye? Does that not seem counterintuitive? But it allowed them to survive. THAT SHIT IS CRAZY.

Everybody who didn't died?

This thread is making me jones for a tamal.

Or maybe polenta. ;)

Yeah but who was the first person to be like 'hey let's throw this food in this harmful substance?' xp

Right but if you're talking about staples, the Mexican staples are still corn based. But not only that, they're the exact same preparations (tortillas, tamales, etc.) Saying that "well pasta is still wheat-based" is stretching your argument so thin I can't even see it any longer. Etruscans didn't eat pasta. Mayans ate tortillas.

Broadly true, but they still eat a lot of bread in Italy.

Thanks to this thread I'm so hungry for Mexican food now, but I will be strong and wait until the next time I'm in the US because Mexican food in Europe frightens me. When family or friends visit me I'm going to ask them to fill their suitcases with tortillas; we can make them ourselves but it's tough work.

I can live with having easy access to confit de canard, though.

Guys I love corn so much I throw corn kernels in my corn bread.

Yeah but who was the first person to be like 'hey let's throw this food in this harmful substance?' xp

Where I grew up in Yosemite, there are granite boulders that still have divots of a sort, amde by the native Miwoks to wash their acorn meal repeatedly to get rid of the toxic alkalis. People are resourceful in the face of necessity.

Isn't lye made from ash? I can't imagine how exactly, but I can imagine someone spilling ash into their maize-soaking water and perhaps taking a liking to it.

There is no way to know how food traditions started & that is really frustrating to me!

I can live with having easy access to confit de canard, though

nomnomnomnomnom, or should i just say 'gniam'?

You can learn how midwestern food traditions like hot dishes and jello salads started.

I think that is seriously the thing I wld ask an omniscient being the history & origin of foodways. (lol 'foodways')

I was thinking that bringing up French food was a distraction, but actually, given France's role in Mexico's history, it's not.

But, as you pointed out, Abbott, they found a way to make a staple out of something which in its original form would not have been. What's equally hard to figure out is how all these ignorant 'savages' ended up breeding their staples over the centuries to enhance nutrition, resistance to pests and plagues and optimum growing schedules. Maize, wheat, rice, etc., are all far from their wild ancestry.

given France's role in Mexico's history, it's not

Apart from mariachi bands, I don't really know what else they left. Flan?

There are food historians working around the clock on this sort of stuff. I don't know how much luck they're having though.

I'm curious bcz centuries later people all over the world were not doing this to corn. Ws not trying to call them savages ;_; I feel like an ass if I came across that way.

How will the people in Wall-E make pizza trees??? This question is applicable to 700 years from now, too!

I didn't mean to imply that you were, Abbott.

xpost

Isn't lye made from ash?

Yeah it is, huh, and until googling this just now, I had always thought lye was a byproduct of fat! Life's misunderstandings.

So many cultures eat and have always eaten bread, though, is the thing. Likewise olives and wine. Only one eats and has always eaten tortillas and tamales. Seriously though it's so awesome that Italian cuisine ISN'T more like ancient Roman/Etruscan cuisine. Kudos to them for being the 1st Europeans to realize tomatoes were a)not lethal and b)DELICIOUS.

lye is mixed w/tallow to make soap, maybe that's where you got that, rabies?

I made soap once at a history camp and as I recall it involved lots of ash and lots of fat. It seemed so counter-intuitive to me as a child.

has always eaten tortillas and tamales

Slightly exagerated unless you're contending that the African origin of humanity is erroneous.

Regarding France's influence on Mexican cooking: there's a history of baking that they left behind for instance. And there are the wonderful regal dishes like chiles en nogada that I guess I don't know are French-influenced (I'm no food scholar), but I'm pretty sure are: the walnut sauce in particular is pretty French it seems to me.

huh Mayans were Africans what?