can we talk about MAD MEN on AMC on this NEW thread ('cause the original one's getting way too long)

...and it'll just get longer still if we don't stop it now.

The last thread should be preserved behind glass.

Anyone in the UK finding the second episode of the new series anywhere yet? Getting the shakes waiting for it.

Never mind, talk on the UK thread about it!

The last thread should be preserved behind glass.

Encased in sarin fumes.

Good ep. Random thoughts: Peggy's confidence and air of authority has sky-rocketed between seasons 2 and 3. Great work from Moss. I haven't quite sussed the maypole scene yet, but it was a powerful moment all the same. I don't think I ever want to see Bye Bye Birdy if the opening sequence is anything to go by.

Oh yeah, very minor point, but where was the place where Peggy and the guy were fooling around supposed to be, if he didn't live 'just round the corner'? His parents' place or something?

i love peggy.

not in the same way i love betty, though.

where was the place where Peggy and the guy were fooling around supposed to be, if he didn't live 'just round the corner'? His parents' place or something?

I was confused by this, too, but someone somewhere suggested that he did in fact live around the corner and that his buddies were just trying to give him an out by asking if he needed cab fare.

Ah, that might make sense. I didn't get that exchange at all.

Yeah, that's how I understood it.

lol @ Jared Harris's wife complaining about NYC at every opportunity.

Did anyone notice the abruptness of a couple of the commercial breaks in this episode? Mostly in scenes involving Peggy. Really got on my nerves for some reason.

They were v. jarring.

i thought the barroom exchange was peggy is for-real city-workin' high-flier whereas young guy is just a dumb college kid living in the ass end of nowhere maybe with his folks. but maybe that's wrong.

sunglasses were great. rilly iconic.

isn't the maypole scene supposed to be similar to the bye bye birdy thing, eg grown woman appearing like a child?

I figured with Peggy and Michael J Fox's father they just went back to his via cab or whatever, his dumb ruse having been blown by his buddies.

Michael J Fox's father

Is this a Crispin Glover reference?

otm

The date of Roger's daughter's wedding answers the question of whether they're going to dodge the JFK assassination issue ...

It shows how little I analyse this programme because I just automatically assumed it meant Don was planning to fuck the maypole girl.

Also that was some hardcore smoking during pregnancy from Betty.

and wine drinking!

favorite line: "You're not fat anymore."

That whole exchange was brilliant: Peggy briskly and dismissively saying 'thank you', than Sal rolling his eyes.

Peggy's weird mixture of surprise, shock, and professional resolve was awesome to behold

A great Peggy episode.
Is Roger going to completely self-destruct before this season is through?

I don't think I ever want to see Bye Bye Birdy if the opening sequence is anything to go by.

Good god yes. I couldn't believe this was a real thing for a while, rather than some artfully made up attempt by the Mad Men people to create a truly cringe-worthy bit of retro.

i thought the bar thing was the guys saying "hey don't you live right around the corner?" as a way to bring up the fact that he lives around the corner like "nudge nudge, that's right you can take her home, go for it buddy!"

bye bye birdie is fricken awesome u fags

i thought his buds were giving him an escape route if he wanted to bail

I would def. watch Bye Bye Birdie. There was a thing on PBS last night called something like Hollywood: Singing and Dancing, and it basically made me want to rent all the old movie musicals. Watching the Bye Bye Birdie clip on Mad Men at least made me long to hear "Kids" ("what the fuck is wrong with those kids today, doo-doo-dah-doo-doo-doo").
"

The Bye Bye Birdie sequence's sex appeal is pretty plain even now, but no, it's not a good movie.

Fave line: "I was hoping he'd eaten her."

sorry if this was mentioned already but Don's farm roots + hippie girlfriend Midge + trip to L.A. + the way he fondled the grass = major transition already set in motion, as if Weiner wants him to stand in for the decade itself. As long as the writers don't make him grow his hair out I'm cool with it. Would love to see him drop acid, except he'd probably just have more meaningful flashbacks of his family.

loved that the diet drink could be a substitute for 'coffee, or dexedrine'

Peggy's "yeah but this appeals to men not women" vs Don's "you know how it works" was my favourite moment of the episode. Peggy's ahead of the curve here and at some point there's going to be an awesome face-off between the two of them.

I can never work out what Don is thinking when he's sitting across the table from Roger. Is he actually seeing his future self and thinking "oh fuck"?

i hope not. roger is an aging spoiled rich kid with marginal talent for his job -- if anyone's gonna turn into him it's pete campbell.

When Roger was mouthing off about his marital woes in this episode, Don didn't give anything back at all. He just said "I'm sorry to hear that" and "Well, you said it". I liked it in the gambling den in the last season, when they were drunk enough that Roger could goad some kind of personal response out of him.

The exchange this week was a nice counterpoint to Don cutting down Lane Pryce talking shop at dinner with "The ladies don't want to hear about that". Don has such a firm sense of what should and shouldn't be said.

Further to what's been said above, I'm starting to subscribe to the view expressed by someone in the other thread that there are signs of Don gradually losing his touch when to advertising. Peggy's surprise that he hadn't seen Bye Bye Birdie - "But you see everything!"

Ann-Margret did sound awful in that film clip, but she was sometimes much better...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMkE_2Wyrfs

I was also surprised by the flashes of bitterness on Peggy's part, dropping that "the guy I work for is such a jerk" line for ex

I mean Don IS a jerk, but he's had a weird symbiotic relationship with Peggy up to this point, both of them using each other to advance themselves

I didn't take that line very seriously. I thought that was just part of the easy patter she fed that guy after he assumed he was a typist.

yea i agree

I didn't take it too seriously either but she probably meant it, at least partly ... part of why she went to the bar was to blow off steam after Don cut her down

I watch the first season tonight. I've only barely breathed the mephitic fumes of the first thread.

a whole season in one night?

I wonder how many episodes before Betty's dad does end up in an old folks home. McCain look-alike geezer + new baby is going to spell disaster for Bett's equanimity. Also, I can't believe Joan went ahead and married that creep. (but can also understand completely - I mean, he's a doctor! And, so embarrassing to call of a wedding!) But maybe he'll get drafted.

I am worried that the father is going to do something creepy and horrible to one of the kids or Betty before he ends up at that old folks home.

oh right didn't he grab Betty's boobs in a previous episode or something...?

"now that you've fed me, why don't we go upstairs"

Yeah, there was a moment when Betty's brother was climbing into the top bunk where I thought it was granddad going for an inappropriate snuggle.

oh right didn't he grab Betty's boobs in a previous episode or something...?

yeah I think he had a delusion that Betty was his dead wife

yeah, it was his senility iirc.

also i thought peggy's 'my boss is a jerk' line was mostly to go along with her joan imitation to let a guy think she was some dumb secretary so he'd be interested in her. i liked how that whole thing went from being like 'i'm so sad peggy's selling out to get a guy :(' to 'wow way to take control of your sexuality and use this dumb jerk for what you want out of him!'

yeah that was an interesting turnabout - I love how she walked out on him and he was all "but, where are ya going?"/sad puppy

that guy didn't seem like a dumb jerk at all to me, just a nice dopey kid.

ok yeah but i guess going in you assumed he was gonna be a jerk like his friend. so he probably was dumb, but maybe not a jerk.

Further to what's been said above, I'm starting to subscribe to the view expressed by someone in the other thread that there are signs of Don gradually losing his touch when to advertising. Peggy's surprise that he hadn't seen Bye Bye Birdie - "But you see everything!"

yeah think the seeds have been planted on this since early season 2, he's been slacking off and disinterested for quite a while but his talent kind of carries him through.

And his advice to London Fog was awful.

The Wikipedia article on the company not only mentions the MM episode but says this:

"The company went public in the 1960s. By the 1970s, the company had its own stores, and was manufacturing not only raincoats, but also other types of clothes and accessories. At the time, two-thirds of all raincoats sold in the United States were London Fog.

London Fog expanded internationally during the 1990s, selling in places like the United Kingdom and China."

also i thought peggy's 'my boss is a jerk' line was mostly to go along with her joan imitation to let a guy think she was some dumb secretary so he'd be interested in her.

yeah, i think she was trying the bimbo-secretary hat on for size. it wasn't quite a joan imitation though -- joan's not dumb at all, just vivacious.

well, she did use joan's subway line.

it's not a dumb line! you've been on the subway; it's crowded!

ok i mean like, it was the line joan used to make all the boys laugh and like her... she doesn't even ride the subway; her husband won't let her!

what subway line are y'all referring to...?

that subway thing reminded me a little of ken cosgrove's line from last season about "i live in murray hill... i can walk to work! BUT I DON'T! omglolz"

didn't know there was such commute snobbery in the '60s.

"When I do come, she will speak not, she will stand,
Either hand
On my shoulder, give her eyes the first embrace
Of my face,
Ere we rush, ere we extinguish sight and speech
Each on each."

lol

Scene: The next morning at Sterling Cooper. Peggy walks by as Joan charms three male clients.

Joan: So I said, "It's so crowded in here, I feel like I'm on the subway!"

Joan's bra: My sentiments exactly.

Men: Ha ha ha ha ha! Please have sex with us.

Joan: Sorry, there's only one date rapist in this world for me. Now, if you'll excuse me, my character apparently won't be further developed until the third episode.

Men: We think you developed just fine.

Joan's ample ass: Shake, shake.

tehresa, that's hilarious.

Re Don and Roger--in the past you got the vibe that Don was a bit amused by Roger, and liked spending time with him, even if there wasn't much personal talk between them, but now Don's looking at Roger without any warmth or patience at all.

what subway line are y'all referring to...?

the lexington to grand central! (haw, do you see what i did there?)

<3

but now Don's looking at Roger without any warmth or patience at all.

Yeah, but Roger used to be a rather privileged philandering middle-aged man who, nonetheless, took the work seriously. Now, he quite obviously could not care less. Don does not have this luxury.

c+pd from the other thread:

Don on top of his game at work and then sticking up for Betty.

I don't think this was his sole rationale for getting his father-in-law to stay with them tbh - he's clearly got some sentimental attachment to him as a cranky old father figure, and hard to avoid the conclusion that one of the reasons he wants him around is cuz y'know, Don wants/needs a dad (esp one who will understand living through the Depression - lolz @ liquor dumpin).

I feel somehow that his insistence on keeping the dad's car is a first act introdcution of a gun.

I don't know, recently watched last season and I don't think Don really feels that strongly about father-in-law.

I agree, I think it was more to do with asserting his alpha maleness. Also Don can have a strong sense of propriety when the mood takes him.

I was suspecting an underlying twinge of teaching Betty the lesson of "be careful what you wish for" in Don's motives. Also, yanking rug out from under that obnoxious brother in law and getting them to leave pronto.

Yes, it seemed to me more like Don saw a way to get Betty to stop moaning about what a pain her brother is. Give her what she says she wants.

Given the show's penchant for knowingly winking at things people used to do in the sixties but not anymore, I wonder if Betty's dad's car has a seatbelt?

pretty sure Don's cadillac doesn't

It seems like the front seats of the cars my family owned in the early 60s all had seatbelts. I know the 1962 and 1965 Corvairs I drove later both came with front seatbelts as standard equipment. There wasn't any mandate for using them, or penalty for not (except impalement and death in a crash) that I remember until much later (1980s?).

Unsafe at Any Speed was not published until 1965, though, so it seems likely that many cars did not have them at the time.

Have you read the book jaymc? It's specifically about the early Corvair.

I think the issues in the 60's were less about seat-belts than about steering columns and bumpers, no?

Also, wasn't the Corvair liable to flip or something?

Nah, I haven't read it, so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about.

Also, wasn't the Corvair liable to flip or something?

That was sort of Nadar's arguement - it had 4 wheel independent suspension, which would supposedly make the two inner wheels slip inward (and under) the body of the car if you went around a tight, steeply banked curve.

Anyway, yeah - the safety focuses of the late 50s/early 60s were the collapsible steering column, safety glass, and padding the dashboard. I think crumple zones and impact bumpers were not considered commercially until the late 70s/early 80s.

lapbelts in the front - nothing in the back

See also kids climbing around in back all the time.

re-watched the last episode last night, couple things:

- I was def. misreading Don upthread about Betty's dad. agreed it was more a case of giving Betty what she wanted, in a kind of posessive and spiteful way
- the spring/maypole/grass thing is an echo of Don's pitch to the Madison Square Garden guys, when he says that NY is dying, rotting, etc. and that MSG will be like a rebirth, a new season

OH JEEZUS ROGER!

I hope animated gifs of Pete dancing are available soon.

I know! Pete & Mrs. Pete on the dancefloor was awesome. Also, Peggy stoned. Also, Joan playing accordion and singing in French. So much personal joy derived from this episode!

Paul's singing scene should make Princeton the favorite to win the douchiest college poll.

but yeah amazing singing and dancing throughout

I keep thinking about rum, and I keep thinking about Cuba, and I keep thinking that we're all going to die.

i know this show seriously stacks the deck in peggy's favor, but i'm a sucker for it and for her. how could anyone not want her to win?

(and ditto joan, obviously.)

pete looks like he's drawn by miroslav sasek.

This Is The 60's

was it me or did the drug pusher look exactly like a young tom cruise?

very cruise-y grin.

even kinda talked like cruise.

Cruise in Risky Business, after college, seems like a great template for that character.

that roger scene, holy crap

Someone else in the room (no names) said right about that time, "It's like this episode is responding to Melissa W."

oh please, can't we pretend that last thread never happened?

probably the most "enjoyable" episode of the season so far, lots of great moments. Peggy needs to get stoned all the time.

Love the scene where Don hops over the bar and makes drinks.

Good drinks, apparently.

He's the man. The man who is competent at everything in the world, except for being honest.

hahahahaha wow. I expect at least three EMP Pop Conference proposals on minstrelsy and Mad Men next year.

That episode was really great.

connie the guy behind the bar = conrad hilton (both born in san antonio, new mexico when it was still a territory, and conrad's birthdate would put him at age 76 in 1963)

^^^ LOST -style fact checking there, dude.

So that would make him the great-grandfather of Paris and Nicky?

LOST -style fact checking there

except that Lost-style is like throwing coins into a fountain.

also, conrad hilton's secretary was a doting middle-aged woman named olive (same as peggy's secretary this episode).

i really liked the interaction between carla and gene. carla knows the deal with the family dynamic and knows she's well-liked by the drapers. when she talks back to gene, she doesn't seem too worried about the outcome -- after all, gene is just some mean old alzheimer's dude that don kinda hates, and whatever he says is suspect anyway. no one believes him about his $5 being missing.

reminds me of peggy not caring what the new secretary thinks of her smoking weed.

That's a good point, but don't forget that a good part of Peggy not caring is due to the fact that she's just gotten high for the first time and everything is super-marvelous.

(Not that you forgot; I read the mention of Peggy as being more directly analagous than you'd actually written it as.)

omg the blackface

this was an amazing episode - almost Lynchian in parts, with the random character monologues/conversations and all the musical elements. Peggy so awesome, Pete and Trudy dancing(!), Don at the bar (and kinda sorta telling Roger off)

wow

when Joan went to get her instrument I was thinking omg I hope she plays trombone or harmonica or something ridiculous and then she reappeared with the most ridiculous instrument possible

god her fiancee is such an asshole

I dunno. The accordion is kind of sexy, especially when played by Joan while she sings a song in French.

But it's sexy in general too.

Also, Jane is a megabitch. I thought she was kind of cool challenging Joan's authority in the office, but...

I haven't really seen this show explore comeuppance that often for characters who really deserve it, but I hope they work overtime on her.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2lcqt7p.jpg

You will get yours.

jane's comeuppance is that she's married to roger.

That was a packed episode, so much to take in. Acute social awkwardness and singing seemed to be the uniting themes. Peggy was incredible throughout.

i also liked the ambiguity of the very last shot, don and betty kissing. like, it gives you this romantic moment, but also is so aware of so many different motivations on both parts.

"You people think money is the solution to all problems!"
"No, just this particular problem."

Oh yeah, what's happened to Kurt? Are we to assume his unapologetic homosexuality led to his firing?

connie the guy behind the bar = conrad hilton (both born in san antonio, new mexico when it was still a territory, and conrad's birthdate would put him at age 76 in 1963)

― wawa vs. sheetz (get bent), Monday, August 31, 2009 4:16 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

amazing. also that actor was the old junk pitcher from Major League.

also that actor was the old junk pitcher from Major League.

THANK YOU! I was trying to place him.

what did betty's "there are other things we could do" mean?

C on T

http://img.skitch.com/20090831-m9r5bqys9ei5c86ykbhrrdbbai.jpg

I'll say it again...

OH JEEZUS ROGER!

i feel like this is not the roger sterling that i fell in love with.

i think it's exactly the same dude. hitting on betty at don's house, having a heart attack screwing a teenager in his office, picking up the "party girl," roger has been a grade-A creep from day one. in a sort of roguishly charming way, but i think you have to be roguishly charming to be a really effective creep.

great ep in general, but I wasn't a huge fan of that last Peggy / Olga scene - felt a little on-the-nose to me.

i think it's exactly the same dude. hitting on betty at don's house, having a heart attack screwing a teenager in his office, picking up the "party girl," roger has been a grade-A creep from day one. in a sort of roguishly charming way, but i think you have to be roguishly charming to be a really effective creep.

― flying squid attack (tipsy mothra), Monday, August 31, 2009 11:37 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you are right, i was a fool to love him.

okay that picture out of context is not really conducive to making me want to watch this show

The viewer's shifting attitude to Roger could be seen as an analogy for the society Mad Men portrays.

I loved the contrast between the black face and the very normal and level-headed Carla.

LSD is right around the corner

That weird convo about Joan's husband "having a bad result" = killed a patient. Can doctors get busted back to not-doctor-anymore during their residency?

Doctoring is kind of mystery to me. Is residency a post-school position, or like an internship. If it's the latter, I'm sure he could get kicked from the program.

I loved the contrast between the black face and the very normal and level-headed Carla.

And Don, always playing the middle. Not thrilled about that little performance, but what is he going to do? Call Roger out on racism? To Roger that would sound like someone suddenly ranting about aliens from outer space. And anyway, Don knows how to piss Roger off on Roger's own terms, and handily win the argument.

what plays in peoria as more offensive: roger's blackface or sal's baltimore dalliance?

when the baltimore episode aired, some viewers were like "ugh, this show has gone too far!" as opposed to, uh, don grabbing bobbie barrett's crotch in a restaurant in season two?

who are "some viewers"?

various internet commenters.

Yeah, even though the audience is growing, it's still pretty targeted at those who'd embrace all aspects of the story being told. xp

And Don, always playing the middle. Not thrilled about that little performance, but what is he going to do? Call Roger out on racism? To Roger that would sound like someone suddenly ranting about aliens from outer space. And anyway, Don knows how to piss Roger off on Roger's own terms, and handily win the argument.

― or have I become completely absurd? (kenan), Monday, August 31, 2009 12:00 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i cant image that don really cares about racism

i think that he sees it as pointless and absurd.

lol don sees everything as pointless and absurd tho

Did anyone catch why Harry Crane's wife went flouncing off? Was it just because Pete and Trudy were pwning the dance floor?

I think he does a bit. He has been shown to not like rudeness and disrespect, (which is not to say he's not amply capable of both, of course). And he treats black workers comparitively decently. The very first scene of the very first ep is him engaging that old waiter on a human level, which the waiter seems a bit taken aback by.

xxpost

i think he dislikes frivolity more than he dislikes racism

And that. Propriety's pretty high on his list.

Did anyone catch why Harry Crane's wife went flouncing off?

I noticed that too, but they never addressed it. I think it was just the culmination of them sort of being ignored the whole day.

don embraced the 'frivolity' of bye bye birdie and of the dancing girl (loved tht scene btw)

That was hilarious. "They want to know we're enjoying ourselves." Harry: "Hello, we're really enjoying ourselves!"

xpost

Harry Crane's wife was pissed because he stopped dancing to watch the other couple, or mainly the girl. Judging by his enthusiasm for watching the dancing girl in the casting session, his voyeurism is a problem in their marriage.

what? the problem was that they were practically alone throughout the day and then when she finally got him to mingle and dance, the other couple stole the spotlight and harry was okay with hanging back and watching them.

yeah, i'm with musically on this. they were at the lame table, and when they tried to interact with the important people they got blank stares. she probably wishes she were married to pete so she could have more spotlight. she's trying really hard. maybes she's not from that set but desperately wants to be.

Exactly. Pete and his wife were the center of attention, and Harry has already been shown to be pretty bad at mixing with the rest of the office at this party ("We're having a great time!"). I think she was mad that Harry wasn't more like Pete and his crazy It's a Wonderful Life dancing.

Harry gets disinvited from the next casting session for his "do the twist again for me" routine. No coincidence both his failures this ep involve watching dancing.

so maybe he's a bit pervy but i think there are probably also a lot of other underlying issues here.

but of course!

Do all ivy leaguers belong to a capella groups? ilx and Mad Men seem to give that impression.

They make up a surprising chunk of the music scene; if you sing at all, if you aren't in one you are likely one degree of separation from them.

there were a surprising number of them when I went to Columbia in the 90s

While Don did get a good smack-down on Roger, I felt like at the end when he saw Roger and Jane dancing, there was some degree of recognition that Roger was in fact happy, and as he walked away I said "Betty better not be upset, of course Jane would know they had separated, she was his secretary at the time" and then they shared this tender moment, like Betty was more pissed about anybody even mentioning the separation that she liked to pretend didn't happen then the fact that Jane somehow knew.

And Don wasn't the only one disturbed by Roger's minstrely, I noticed Pete had a weird look on his face, while everyone else thought it was a hoot...or just goofy.

yeah pete was the only person not smiling during the blackface scene

Wonder how Paul would've reacted.

what do you think will happen w/ joan, will she leave that dude now that she's found out he wont be making much money

that would be a pretty lame way to keep her in the office.

Reckon there could be some domestic abuse brewing.

perhaps she'll wake up one morning and remember that he, i dunno, raped her and reconsider her general life path.

And Don wasn't the only one disturbed by Roger's minstrely, I noticed Pete had a weird look on his face, while everyone else thought it was a hoot...or just goofy.

Pete seemed disturbed by it, but I don't know if it was because he thought it was racist or with his old money background it seemed undignified.

Can doctors get busted back to not-doctor-anymore during their residency?

No. You can get kicked out of a residency program for being incompetent or crappy, but you're still a doctor (unless you get kicked out for something that also involves your licensure getting revoked, but that would have to be like, malicious malpractice). IMSMR this was actually more common when Mad Men is set than it is now, since a bunch of programs would take more first-year interns/residents than they had spots for in years three or four or five. I assumed it was just that he iced a patient and got shook about it, primarily because he wants to be the golden boy of the program and obtain the prestige and $$$ that came along with it. (It might also be that he thinks he's incapable of fault.) He was making nothing at the time (as residents continue to do), but if he got made chief resident you get some extra money and once you complete a prestigious surgical residency then basically money falls out of the sky. In theory.

When the older lady told Joan "You two will be fine no matter what happens" it sounded like he could end up losing his residency.

Yeah, her comment about "since he could land a woman like you" had me wondering what the older doc's wife knew about Greg.

just watched that blackface scene again. Pete's expression is amazing, but he tries to hide his distaste, whereas Don makes no bones about it and bolts...

The last thread was too much a morass to wade through, so this may have been mentioned already, but, via A.V. Club: http://madmenfootnotes.com/

FINALLY:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2009/08/petedanceC83109.gif
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2009/08/petedanceD83109.gif
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2009/08/petedancingE83109.gif
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2009/08/petedanceF83109.gif

I loved how Pete alternated between looking happy and stealing glances at the crowd to see the reaction and looking mildly embarrassed.

also
http://i32.tinypic.com/2j0xlp0.jpg

okay that is classic

I can't stand Trudi this season.

Why are they doing the Charleston? I never quite got why they would be doing a thirty year old dance?

i think it was a 30s-themed party

same reason people play 80s records at dances now

everybody goes to parties
they dance this mess around

they do all 16 dances

Why are they doing the Charleston? I never quite got why they would be doing a thirty year old dance?

The faux-Dixieland band started playing it?

This is a cool playlist:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=29C92FE0C1BEECC2

losing my shit at "lol white people" (although i'm all "man, i wanna learn the charleston now")

I don't think I could if my life depended on it.

I spent too much of today reading about Al Jolson and trying to see if he was directly connected to The Charleston, since he was known for both My Old Kentucky Home and Hello Ma Baby.

I can't stand Trudi this season.

― chap, Monday, August 31, 2009 3:08 PM

i don't think you're supposed to like her

yeah you guys need to stop trying to like people on this show except maybe peggy sometimes.

i think i identify with paul a little too much.

I know you're not supposed to like her. It was an offhand comment, not a criticism of the show.

sorry, that wasn't directed at you! i was projecting...if i watch this show i will always want to like don draper even if he killed someone in the last episode, because he is hot.

Yes he is. I am a heterosexual male and my feelings are similar.

I spent too much of today reading about Al Jolson and trying to see if he was directly connected to The Charleston, since he was known for both My Old Kentucky Home and Hello Ma Baby.

My dad raised me on Al Jolson records, so it was nice seeing someone sing those songs other than me and my pops for once. (or the WB frog.)

I like many of the characters.

i think i identify with paul a little too much.

^^^^^^

*strokes imaginary beard*

http://img.skitch.com/20090901-8yea8ymr7k2853tqe88hhr93qb.jpg

no, not lol. deep shame and embarrassment.

http://img.skitch.com/20090901-pksgtqe54gbbtg6knysbm6fqb7.jpg

moar like

u spelt embarrassment rong

I'm not doing it again ok

Yay, no delaye on this episode getting on the net, unlike last week.

Loved this episode--pure enjoyment (with sporadic bonus discomfort) from start to finish.

pete and trudy are good at dancing because they cant have babies

joan and roger are getting their comeuppance for denying their shared destiny - i mean its like roger doesnt even zing anymore - does he even zing anymore - and joans husband srsly omg puke - she shouldve been hosting something much better than either of those parties w/roger - they fucked up bigtime

The island wants them to be together.

the encounter between betty and the strange guy outside the bathroom like her relationship w/glen bishop shows her loneliness and vulnerability - if u ask even sort of nicely shell let u in - so far shes drawn the line at anything incriminatingly romantic but it cant be long right

those left behind at the office to fuck w/gin n weed had a much better time than everyone at the party

dons discomfort at the party mirrors that of his work - hes really not meshing w/his new english bosses and its affecting his performance - plus hes got this old loopy motherfucker in his house - theres no where left to hide - somethings got to give eh eh

i cant image that don really cares about racism

I think a lot of Don's distaste in this scene is not about racism per se but about the follies of the privileged rich. Even if he wouldn't describe it as "racist," he probably thinks it's gauche and out of touch.

'scuse me it was rum. gin will make you cry!
xposts

The drug pusher was played by Miles Fisher, whose Wiki page contains the following items:

1. "He ... attended Harvard University where he was a member of the a cappella group The Krokodiloes."
2. "He parodied actor Tom Cruise in the 2008 film Superhero Movie."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ6zEB5A_EA

why r there no clocks in here

'scuse me it was rum. gin will make you cry!

― tehresa, Tuesday, September 1, 2009 12:43 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dunno rum n juice just doesnt sound right

ok so they were drinking bacardi gin?

where is your attn to detail weiner would be ashamed of you

rum & pineapple juice is a great drink, ur mental

so far shes drawn the line at anything incriminatingly romantic

you dont think her fucking that dude in the coatroom was romantic?

hes really not meshing w/his new english bosses and its affecting his performance

Affecting his performance? When/how? He deal with London Fog quite well, and the British pulled the plug on Madison Square Garden, not Don.

thought miles fisher ws just like a diet tom cruise

He looked like Risky Business era Tom Cruise, not crazy couch jumping Tom Cruise.

you dont think her fucking that dude in the coatroom was romantic?

lolz yeah I wonder when Don's gonna find out its not his baby

no she had already found out she was pregnant, that's why she got w/ that guy

Exactly, she already knew she was pregnant so she had nothing to lose (except for poss. std).

surely an STD would be something to gain

Who gets custody of the STD in the divorce?

Solomonic wisdom requires they both get 50/50 split, no?

Affecting his performance? When/how? He deal with London Fog quite well, and the British pulled the plug on Madison Square Garden, not Don.

― Jouster, Tuesday, September 1, 2009 4:09 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

his advice to london fog re expanding their brand was complete shit and he fed peggy the same sort of conventional thinking he lectured her against last year (men want her women want to be her / sex sells) - hes slippin no doubt

------------------

you dont think her fucking that dude in the coatroom was romantic?

― just sayin, Tuesday, September 1, 2009 4:04 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol totally forgot abt that part

oh right, forgot Betty's lil get together was post-pregnancy test

I'd pay $ to see this if it comes to town: http://www.baronmiller.com/Mad_Men-Live_Revue/ (sorry if it's been linked on other thread tl;dr)

Mad Men just got renewed for Season 4.

the one exchange that really got me was "you can't even sing" - "YOU TAKE THAT BACK!"

his advice to london fog re expanding their brand was complete shit and he fed peggy the same sort of conventional thinking he lectured her against last year (men want her women want to be her / sex sells) - hes slippin no doubt

I disagree! Peggy didn't see the appeal of Ann Margaret, Don did, and "men want her, women want to be her" is not the same thing as "sex sells," anyway. And London Fog, I just disagree with you. I think it's way off to say there's "no doubt."

its not the same thing as sex sells but its equally as hackneyed - one of the things we have over the characters on this show is we can look at everything thats happened since the 60s and make clear judgments ie the london fog advice is proven wrong by the last 40 years of branding/advertising/sales/retail/marketing/etttttttc - that applies to peggys insight as to the marketing the doomed patio brand and products pitched at women in general

but advertising is very much of its time. being ahead of your time often does not equal success, just looks good to people in the future.

naw one of the themes of the show is sterling cooper are dinosaurs on the verge of extinction and they have NO IDEA

i'm just throwing this out there to see if i can get some high-fives, but is this show starting to bug anyone else? i'm enjoying it and all, am curious to know where it goes, appreciating sal's story arc, wishing i had don's hair and all, and some of the complaints i have go back to the dissatisfaction with the skewed margritte this is not the sixties style representation of everything. BUT, just so i can be a registered malcontent before everyone else goes off it some time in the future:

it just feels so staid, so satisfied with the joy of dress-up and recreation, unable to get emotional or empathisable because of the veneer of representation stopping the characters from living and breathing. seeing the dope smoking episode on sunday reminded me of a few of the other big topical tie-ins; don encountering counter-culture types and dropping acid, him violently thrown into this OTT sixties scenario to see how it would jar. it so embraces those standard views of the culture of the time, and it seems so cartoonish and one dimensional.

the way it's progressing is bugging me too. like somewhere between the kid stealing, which kinda illuminates class issues in the home i know, but it just feels like a really standard drama trope of what to do with the characters from tv-drama 101. or seeing joan have a terse exchange with the wife of the partner, it's really brazenly soap-opera-esque but for the fact that it comes in much nicer packaging. the only male characters who will have an impact on betty's life are the occasional sultry, suited strangers who cock eyes at her. it feels so bloodless.

and don. everything that's good about the ambiguity of the character feels lazy on the flipside. whoever was talking about him not being so much anti-racist as anti-antics-of-the-rich upthread is otm, but there's a real danger of him just becoming this kind of feelgood moral protagonist for the contemporary viewer, who can placate their fears by knowing that if they were there, they'd be standing up for the little man too, be rejecting racism or calling out the rude asshole or doing the right thing. he should be doing stuff that we actually have to confront as wrong but of its time, at least above the level of littering; like seeing him smack his kid or call himself a eugenicist or something, just so long as we deal with the fact that shit was different back then, not just that everyone was wrong and we know better. he's too flexible as it is; walking with the hepcats, picking up the l.a. drop-outs, reading o'hara and dropping acid while still coming home to the kids. it's probably a sign of creating an authentic narrative voice that i'm this concerned about the character, but something just feels so off; not everything indefined about him should be contributed to his ambiguity; there are nice occasions on which we get a flash of his appreciation for betty and the kids (ie the carousel), but when we see him eschewing that for messy affairs, there's no sense of where it comes from - self-destruction? compulsion? when there's an air hostess, it's like it's just because there's someone there. and yet he's not roger.

i'm still tuning in and all, i just thought i'd see if anyone likes my dissent.

yeah i dont agree w/ all yr criticisms but i havent been feeling this season nearly as much as i was at the same point in season 1 or 2

seeing joan have a terse exchange with the wife of the partner

If that's the only dynamic you equate to this scene, you haven't been paying attention.

i just mean the slow-burn of the way it's shot; the standard application of a placid exchange, with an undercurrent of overt dislike, 'it was so nice to see you' said devoid of meaning after an awkward pause. there's that thing about long-meaningful-gazes in 24, characters roaming off into the distance as a melancholic eyebrow is raised onscreen. and mad men being reduced to that kind of standard thing seems lazy.

also, Don Draper never did acid with the hippies; he just smoked a joint and listened to miles. but yeah, this season is easily the laziest so far, but I am optimistic that it will pick it up soon.

it's not just that. joan wanted what jane has. she thought by marrying a doctor she'd be the one that would get to walk into places wearing fancy hats and having secretaries wait on her. instead she has to sit on the floor when they have a dinner party.

i think i got mixed up and thought that don had dropped out, as i have memories of him staring into the mirror flashbacking, and thought someone else on here was confused when they mentioned the possibility of him dropping acid in future episodes. but about my above post i'm not so big on the details, more just a general suspicion of the style of the show wallpapering over something that needs some meat on its bones.

im declaring war on the soap opera pejorative - everything that deals in interpersonal dynamics is not similar to a soap opera - have you people even ever seen a soap opera ffs (not just u schlump)

great artists ive heard denigrated w/the comparison - tolstoy, antonioni, springsteen

its a lame move meant to simultaneously assert the users interest in greater more profound things and dismiss the object of scorn w/o engaging its substance and if u employ it yr behaving just like the local news

i don't think so; it's - or i don't know, i, inarticulately, was - referring to soap operas tonally, in being melodramatic, kitschy scenes, full of hyperdramatic reductionist behaviours like the catfight, the evil stare, the ominous entrance etc etc. and i maybe dumbly cited a scene that works on many levels, epitomising as it does the intersection of status and gender and everything else, but i still call that scene out for just being shitty and unoriginal and tired and cheap (maybe not that strongly, but all of those things); it's the kind of lazy one-dimensional s o a p o p e r a technique that conveys distaste through heavy-handed squinting, that resorts to explicitly communicating JOAN GLOWERS AT (whoever) instead of letting that stuff become apparent on its own.

i think i would actually agree with your point, definitely from the point of one asserting their cultural superiority, if i were not the one using it

like i get how 'soap opera' is lazy and dismissive, and that there's a dead-end in my argument when i say that, ie, the writers are being lazy by having the kid do a thing that some kids do, and some kids in tv dramas might as well do (as they aren't old enough to do anything interesting yet and need to create some kinda friction) - because i'm asking it to be something else entirely, or to disassociate itself from the realm of things that happen in soap operas as if they're somehow tainted. but it's borne of a frustration at the linear progress of this thing. i really am not going to be able to connect until there's a moment of acted humanity from one of these guys, and that isn't going to happen because the aesthetic of the show is to depict the period as its represented rather than in some hyperreal way. good night & good luck was heavy-handed in parts but seems kinda a salient contrast to mad men, and i think having given an inch in loosening up the characters from standing to attention all the time made it easier to connect to.

i like 'mad men' a lot and i've always thought of it as a soap opera. ('twin peaks' is a soap opera too, fwiw.) i understand why that sounds pejorative, but it's entirely possible to mean it appreciatively.

i understand some of the criticisms and concerns about 'mad men,' including the ones on the earlier thread, but for me personally they're somewhat beside the point. i like the show because it's fun to watch, it's made with care and intelligence, it had an original idea and has tried in various ways to expand on it, sometimes naturally more successfully than others. it gives me something to look forward to once a week, which is all i require of any tv series and don't get from them nearly often enough.

i think calling don draper a "feelgood moral protagonist" is a ... novel reading of the show and that character. i mean, he's the center of the action, but i wouldn't use any of those 3 words to describe him.

and good night & good luck is sort of an interesting contrast, but to me mostly in the sense that i thought that movie was kind of a pedantic bore, and i don't think that about mad men.

i like 'mad men' a lot and i've always thought of it as a soap opera.

definitely!

it is totally a soap opera. most dramas are!

ya i wish people didn't want mad men to be more than a tv show. i mean this is the same show that has had inter-office affairs, employee/client affairs, an unwanted pregnancy, an interracial relationship, a gay employee, identity fraud, a long-lost brother, plus all the little power struggles between every character all taking place in one 60s ad company! it's so a soap.

but i think i know what schlump means by soap opera trappings though - like joan glowering at jane w awkward small talk was a kind of a cliched scene, whereas betty puking after the don/bobbie barrett reveal was not, and it's a scene that says a lot more abt betty and don than meaningful glances exchanged or a standard "soap-y" confrontation between them would. Not that there should be a scene with joan puking at the sight of jane (although lol if there was) but just one that was less choreographed awkwardness and more actual/realistic awkwardness. hard to gauge the difference though - sometimes a story is just best told through standard narrative tropes.

ya i wish people didn't want mad men to be more than a tv show. i mean this is the same show that has had inter-office affairs, employee/client affairs, an unwanted pregnancy, an interracial relationship, a gay employee, identity fraud, a long-lost brother, plus all the little power struggles between every character all taking place in one 60s ad company! it's so a soap.

so otm. it's not the history channel. it's not a documentary series!

and i guess it's not just limited to soaps, most tv dramas use the same techniques. xp

and also, sometimes the most cliched tropes are the ones most like "real life." however an exchange like the one between jane and joan might play out in real life, it would probably be closer to the scene as played than to anything more dramatic or more subtle or more weird. people tend to revert to stereotype under stress.

yeah - i agree with roz's point and awesome enumeration of the bizarre incidents of the series - the fact that it's not even trying to walk a neo-realist line had passed me by somewhat. i think i am asking for trouble by expecting it to be something its not, but it's hard not to critique when it's thrown around in the same breath as the sopranos, which did extend beyond the parameters of something to watch while eating your tea etc. that it's so often some way to being great makes its shortcomings frustrating.

i think calling don draper a "feelgood moral protagonist" is a ... novel reading of the show and that character. i mean, he's the center of the action, but i wouldn't use any of those 3 words to describe him.

he's obviously, tokenistically if i'm being cynical, flawed enough so that he isn't our guy, but he's still the guy we're rooting for - we want him to get the last line in an argument, and we laugh along when he says that money solves this problem. i think he's what we hang on to when we see a bunch of revelers losing their shit over a minstrel show; we want reassurance that they should all be disgusted, and don's the vessel who can enact walking out head held high. and i think there are times that that's going to be unrealistic, and that it'd be more appropriate for us to see him - not deindividuated or swept up - but displaying some kind of attitude common to the time, awkward in hindsight.

xp aw yeah i know - i was using the joan exchange as a microcosm for the stuffier parts of the show, of which i think there are some, whether it's conniving executive pete or whatever else.

i used to watch soap operas a lot. i have no problem with mad men being a soap opera.

fyi its harder for stupids to pick up on this sort of thing - thats why we call them stupids (deej)

― ice cr?m, Friday, August 28, 2009 11:50 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark

rather be dumb than entirely amoral

The one thing that really bugged me about this week's episode were the annoying setpieces - the Campbells doing the charleston and Joan with the accordion. Why?

It especially irritated me because I really wanted more of stoned Peggy in the office. Lololol.

Also Roger Sterling in blackface was just :-0

the annoying setpieces - the Campbells doing the charleston and Joan with the accordion. Why?

Why? SO I COULD FLIP THE FUCK OUT WITH JOY!

they were there because music was a unifying narrative thread for this episode, and they emphasized and elaborated on key character dynamics (Joan's asshole fiancee using her once again to suit his own narcissism, the forced, weirdly manic relationship between Trudy and Pete, etc.)

I thought both scenes were fantastic

the sopranos, which did extend beyond the parameters of something to watch while eating your tea etc.

o rly? How so?

aw you know. i just mean that if one's expectations for a tv show are to be distracted, it's a leap for something to be art, worth discussing, expressing sentiments rather than just extending from its start point to keep everyone vaguely interested.

Joan's asshole fiancee

They've been married for 4 or 5 months at this point. Here's hoping she'll dump him once he doesn't get chief resident (at least I hope killing a patient due to botched lung cancer surgery keeps him from getting that spot).

It's not art until somebody gets whacked.

Mad Men clearly has a lot to say about American attitudes (London Fog was poison, etc...) and how the modern consumerist culture developed, along with the old Gatsby two-acts stand-by, I don't really know how much beyond the melodrama on-screen you actually expect from a show to consider it 'art', or at least beyond being a good drama and nothing more.

anyone feel like pete and trudi look EXACTLY alike. annoying round smiley faces.

fyi its harder for stupids to pick up on this sort of thing - thats why we call them stupids (deej)

― ice cr?m, Friday, August 28, 2009 11:50 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark

rather be dumb than entirely amoral

― butthurt (deej), Wednesday, September 2, 2009 1:55 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

not sure what yr on abt morality wise - but anyway sry i called u a stupid - srsly tho rewatch the first v episode of mad men - theres some wobbliness to it but overall it def shows all the signs of being a serious contender - particularly don brainstorming its toasted in front of his clients and rachel menken calling don out for being a lonely weirdo over apology drinks

also lol at all of you being all dramas are soap operas twin peaks is a soap opera - yes u are using the term w/such determined vagueness as to render it meaningless as anything other than a put down

Any chance we could end the tiresome handwringing about Mad Men's artistic worthiness or lack of it and talk about the series? It feels like this to-and-fro has been going on for weeks now.

im into this concept

thought the last ep was great everyone singin n dancin while don looks on w/contempt - peggy getting high and articulating her previously sublimated world view - bettys part outfit being so much better than everyone elses

the Joan/Jane confrontation was awesome because the cold look that Joan gave her as she walked away, taking that drag on her cigarette. if that's not high art...

I think this season is fine so far. I thought the first two seasons sort of took a while to get going too...it's a weird show because it's not very dramatic, despite the soap opera (though i would just call this character-driven) elements.

I'm loving this show for the gaps and clues vs. delineating every single detail of each character's life. Like setting the date for the last episode by the reference to the Rockefeller wedding and Kentucky Derby (May 4, 1963), and not giving us the blow-by-blow of Joan and Greg, just glimpses ("I don't want have a fight about this" "Then stop talking"), or knowing whether Peggy actually fired her incompetent secretary or if she just quit after she got married.

the thing that stands out abt the show for me its its strong contemplative quality - it deals a lot w/the inner lives of its characters - its dramatic w/out being histrionic

yeah nice way to put that.

yah see i kind of feel that's what sets it apart from a soap opera for me - you spend a lot of time wondering abt characters motivations, how characters are feeling &c

naw one of the themes of the show is sterling cooper are dinosaurs on the verge of extinction and they have NO IDEA

Seems to me that the big foreshadowing moment in the last episode was the Don vs Roger face-off. Like, Don's walking around this ridiculous old boys network barely concealing his contempt, happier hanging out with the barman, and then looking at Roger and seeing himself in 20 years time and shuddering at it.

Yeah Sterling Cooper are dinosaurs, and yeah the Britishes are dinosaurs, and yeah Peggy knows which way the wind is blowing, and yeah hippies and dope and free love are round the corner but the future really belongs to amoral slippery arseholes like Don Draper. I hope we don't end up with some kind of Draper redemption because all he needs to do is cynically reinvent himself once again and he'll be the last man standing.

its v skillful how mad men shows so much of the inner world of its characters from such a distance - minimal exposition no voice overs or people whispering to themselves - i guess the closest we get is dons flashbacks - those even have been offered up pretty piecemeal

agreed don has the ability to transcend his surroundings and hop on the next wave of advertising or whatever because he doesnt really believe in anything

i srsly doubt a draper redemption - seems things are gonna get v bad for him - i could see by the end of the series him achieving the pinnacle of industry while his soul is just filthy and his home life decimated

Also has anyone mentioned that Betty's dad is like doubly creepy and hateful because he looks exactly like John McCain?

the first time ol' grandpa hofstadt came onscreen my roommate and me looked at each other simultaneously and said "john mccain??"

uh... that actually is john mccain guys

playing himself

in "john mccain: the draper years"

u look just like john mccain

thats because i am john mccain - howdy folks!

it's cool to see what mccain was like when he was younger.

Ryan Cutrona's played McCain types before (he played a member of the US National Security Council in both 24 and The West Wing), but I don't think he looks as much like McCain as Kevin Tighe (Locke's dad on Lost, Nick's dad on Freaks and Geeks) does.

i dunno max says it is john mccain

guys, there is no redemption for don. he is going to jump out of his office window at the end of the series. you ever watch the opening credits?

SPOILER

i love how everyone takes the credits for granted. we've been SPOILED since episode 1.

i hate the credits btw - looks all cheap and internety and the song sux

he actually fakes his own death a second time and becomes television star john saxon

he throws a dummy out of his office window and peggy smuggles him out like a hidden pregnancy

It turns out he was actually Betty's horse all along.

has anyone listened to weiner's commentary tracks on the dvd?
he can't stop talking about how much he loves every scene and character. also he keeps insisting that don has a very strong moral center.

"mad men" was actually the dream dick whitman had in the moments before being blown to hell in korea

don is def v moralistic in his own strange way

i agree but a lot of people here seem to think otherwise.

on one hand, they're not really dinosaurs. They're not cutting edge, but while the cutting edge firms blaze trails, that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of room for all sizes of companies doing mediocre work.

The big mistake is not realizing that Duck was right and that media buying would become the prime source of income for advertising companies over the years.

I like the end of the credits

yeah thats all prob true xp

the firm may continue to exist and they may even hold on to their white patriarchal ways - roger seems intent on making his last stand at the club - but its going to be on an increasingly irrelevant island - v soon theyre going to stop sizzling - and its the sizzle that theyre really all in it for

you know, if they could just land that sizzler account, things might start to turn around!

Also has anyone mentioned that Betty's dad is like doubly creepy and hateful because he looks exactly like John McCain?

I immediately thought that when he was first introduced, but I thought I was just being mean spirited and partisan.

also he keeps insisting that don has a very strong moral center.

Not terribly broad in its scope or refined but he does have a very strong personal code, of sorts.

in addition to that weiner kept talking about how much don really did love betty and the kids and wanted to make his marriage work, which i was less convinced of.

Yeah I don't see how you can Weiner's conception of Don's marriage and what has actually APPEARED ON THE SCREEN BEFORE MY EYES jibe at all.

he def decided he wanted to make the marriage work at the end of last season - his version of love is pretty limited tho

Yeah but not wanting to lose your marriage /= loving Betty (or your kids) except by maybe the most meaningless definition.

I think he loves the idea of Betty more than he loves the actual person.

Yeah I don't think that he likes the actual Betty.

Yeah. I also think it's possible that he does love her, but finds real intimacy (ie, truth) impossible with her as well.

hes a cipher shes a child its a tough combo to make work

http://www.unboundedition.com/pdp_thinking/2009/sep/2/attention-deficit-theatre-mad-men-season-three-epi/

the thing that stands out abt the show for me its its strong contemplative quality - it deals a lot w/the inner lives of its characters - its dramatic w/out being histrionic

so otm. it's a show of moments. it feels emotionally real in a way that few other things do, at its best at least. the scene where don watches roger dancing with jane was amazing. rationally he knows roger isn't happy, but it's night time and he's drunk and the music is playing as he walks away, just felt so fucking vividly like being at a wedding. then he sees betty etc. just like the illogical nature of feelings is something it does so well.

thought this ep was the best in quite a while, didn't get a huge kick out the first two eps of this season but enjoyed them. like the storyline with betty's dad and his five dollars.

one reservation, anyone think peggy being stoned was kinda shit, it didn't feel real and was either badly written or badly acted. people don't actually go "OH THAT IS SO PRETTY" about a necktie when they're stoned...

weed was different in the 60s

And they sure as hell didn't use up-to-the-minute phrases like "I'm in a very happy place right now" or whatever her actual line was.

xpost

It was also a less well-known experience. I thought she did fine.

I dunno, felt it was a bit "oh look she's stoned, this is what stoned people do.", like writing for an easy audience signifier rather than actual reality. also the fact they actually ran with the "weed has inspired creativity" line as she went off to do some work.

not sure what yr on abt morality wise - but anyway sry i called u a stupid - srsly tho rewatch the first v episode of mad men - theres some wobbliness to it but overall it def shows all the signs of being a serious contender - particularly don brainstorming its toasted in front of his clients and rachel menken calling don out for being a lonely weirdo over apology drinks

also lol at all of you being all dramas are soap operas twin peaks is a soap opera - yes u are using the term w/such determined vagueness as to render it meaningless as anything other than a put down

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, September 2, 2009 10:31 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

jesus dude i just mean that you have to go on faith that it all goes somewhere ... bcuz early on, its really not clear what theyre trying to say w/ all this ... like, the story in the first ep is pretty much like 'lol the 60s, lol sexism,' etc. done in a really artfully pretty way ... i pretty much entirely agree w/ your defense of the show as a whole but calling anyone who wasnt like THIS IS TOTAL GENIUS a couple episodes in 'stupid' is really dumb ...

also, this argument is 100% separate from the "tiresome handwringing about Mad Men's artistic worthiness" & i dont think theres been anyone who has claimed that Don himself doesnt have a moral center ... rather that the entire show's perspective on morality is pretty muddy at first, leading some ppl (incorrectly i think) to say the show was simply reveling in regressive morality ....

xposts I've never gotten the impression that Don doesn't love his kids. He's distant a lot of the time (big surprise), but he's very good with them and more importantly, he doesn't lie to them that I can remember (little Bobby asked him about his dad and he told him - would he tell Betty, or anyone else, that same stuff?).

I've always seen Don as (in a simplistic way) a guy who grew up in the shit, decided to change himself entirely and get everything he thought he wanted, and then got there and still felt unfulfilled. It isn't that he doesn't love Betty necessarily, but he's still feeling the lack. I think he's torn between his genuine affection for Betty and the kids and his own selfish desire to figure out what happiness is.

Actually that sounds pretty trite. I'm sure it's better than that though.

that seems pretty accurate if incomplete - don is a stone nihilist - hes made some serious psychological sacrifices to get where he is

Think Don's moral code comes out more in his dealings with Peggy and Sal than through his own marriage. Although he took Betty's dad in to protect her first and foremost, despite all signs that the dad is being a complete cunt in return.

And thought Palin would be a good vp pick.

what i've wondered about with Don is if he doesn't care about Sal's bellhop fetish due to a moral belief that being homosexual is ok or if he makes it a point not to snoop into peoples private lives because he really doesn't want people doing the same to him (the same reasoning obv applies to Peggy's personal goings on aswell). is it a moral choice or one of self-preservation?

i think don prides himself on judging people on their merits -- hiring peggy as a writer was obviously his biggest move in that regard, but sal fits into it too. (and his distaste for pete and the whole idea of inherited privilege.) of course he has more blind spots than he'd care to admit to himself. and of course it's a self-serving thing for him to believe, too. really i think the whole question of don's moral center is complicated -- it's clearly important to him to see himself that way, but the show gives lots and lots of examples to the contrary. it very deliberately started out the season with him semi-reluctantly bedding the stewardess, to establish that however weary it might make him he's still basically the same old don.

happier hanging out with the barman

He wasn't the barman!

Even before the "OH JEEZUS ROGER!" moment I knew something was up when I heard the uptempo, swingin dixieland version of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot"...

why do i envision sally snapping around age 17 and blowing up the ossining post office american pastoral style?

haha.
that was great; i hope the kids getting interested isn't bookended by the passing of that storyline

Poor Sal's wife.

also r.i.p. john mccain. you killed many of the kaiser's best men.

It's a dead man's hat.

Poor Sal's wife.

that scene was really good, the way it just dawns on her. and he's oblivious, because he's caught up in acting out ann-margret.

was Don's nod to Sally in sympathy or more "do what your mother says"?

why was Don being all captain save a HoHo

or was it JoJo

he suddenly grew a conscience ... ?

dead man's hat was a great line

well, you know, the whole episode was about parents and children (gene-betty, betty-sally, peggy-mom), and i think don's attempted intervention was to try to redeem the kid in his father's eyes. (in a way that don himself never managed -- or pete for that matter.) which of course is what hoho wants, but don was just trying to tell him tha jai-alai is probably not really his best route to that. he was speaking as one estranged son to another.

sal's wife seems really sweet. i like them as a couple even in light of certain... facts.

p.s.: i saw a jai-alai match in florida. the old people like it.

what's sal's wife's name?

the look of horror on her face was so amazing.

also peggy's satisfied look after patio hated the commercial.

kitty

oh that's perfect, too!

A lot going on but less frantically paced than the first three this season; good rhythm. Sally's head on the door after the news was a bit long, Betty's dialog to Gene about being morbid a hair too on the nose, but really solid.

the closing music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbggEGUaE28

the next episode is called "the fog." will london fog make an appearance? another trip to b'more for sal?

lol at the norwegian and the swede each reassuring their families that the roomie is one of their own

When Joan was cleaning the broken tank (ant farm?) it looked lime she'd been crying & I hoped she was about to become peggy's roommate.

sal and his wife prob the most functional couple in the show despite the obvious.

thought the scene with sally lying on the floor watching the news was really great, just like she realised what death was.

i hoped she was going to hint at that when she came in to help her with the ad, but no dice.
xpost

I loved the scene with Joan helping Peggy.

"helping" in her queen-bee condescending way.

I felt it was quite a friendly scene between them. She was right to guess that Peggy is trying to reinvent herself.

Like Joan is a bitch but she does seem to want to help people, even if sometimes she can only see her way of life as be all and end all.

i think joan may still be bitter about having her driver's license (with age) posted in the breakroom, so she's gotta be relishing *a little* in peggy getting laughed at.

maybe. I thought her advice was sincere though

me too.

also childish but peggy's mum saying "you'll get raped you know" did make me lol. just so out of the blue.

no no, that was classic catholic guilt/passive aggression. not out of the blue at all.

it just felt kinda blunt. i did relate to the whole catholic mother thing in that part tho, majorly.

lol @ moving to a different borough equaling abandonment

"i protected him from shylocks at dartmouth for four years. let me have my payday."

t just felt kinda blunt.

defnitely! but not out of character for peggy's mom, we just haven't seen her in a while

so is the baby still in that apartment or what? I thought it was weird that that wouldn't even come up in that conversation. kinda weird that plot is essentially over

that wasn't Peggy's baby, it was her sister's.

haha shit I knew I was forgetting something. thx

What happened to all the money Don got from Sterling Cooper being sold? Or was it not as much as I remember it being?

Love the opening scene, with the look on the girl's face as she drives. And grandfather to grandson: "There was this girl..."

"You have no idea how confused America's going to be by that J..."

if anyone's curious about the original penn station (the one that was demolished to build madison square garden), this is a gigantic photo of how it looked in 1910:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/6456?size=_original

man sally's gonna be a really messed up kid

lol "gonna be" who am i kidding

as soon as grandpa started smelling oranges, you knew he was getting ready to meet ol' shakey mo

"you'll get raped"

"also childish but peggy's mum saying "you'll get raped you know" did make me lol. just so out of the blue."

Every member of my wife's family told her that when she moved to San Francisco.

And they aren't even Catholic!

felt like standing up and applauding joan's 'this would be my note' speech

why didnt they show creepy dad's death?

sal has never been particularly camp before, seemed weird and tacked-on how all of a sudden he started to prance about singing in a girly voice. was pretty amazing seeing the truth dawn on his wife, though

"why didnt they show creepy dad's death?"

Because they cared more about the reactions to his death than wasting 10 minutes building up to his collapse in the store.

i wonder if it was planned from the start, or it was a victim of the edit

"also childish but peggy's mum saying "you'll get raped you know" did make me lol. just so out of the blue."

Every member of my wife's family told her that when she moved to San Francisco.

My mom used to say this to me any time I ever went to Detroit when I was in my teens.

when we moved to nyc from tennessee one of my wife's relatives tried to give us a gun. (he assured us it was unregistered...)

i've had that fucking bye bye birdie rip-off jingle stuck in my head for the last 36 hours. damn you, mad men.

BYE BYEEEEEEEEE SUUUUUUUUGAAAAAAR

The appeal of this screeching awfulness is completely lost on me (even in the Ann-Margaret verison). I don't know if this means I'm a child of my time or just not a paedophile.

Ann-Margret, rather.

yeah otm, is so horrible and jarring.

I remember liking that musical when I saw it years ago, but that part was just so awful. I don't know if that's because the scene was out of context, or if I just had terrible taste and liked it more than it deserved.

the grandpa jean plot seemed oddly truncated - they def couldve kept him around to annoy don for a few more eps

yeah, i couldn't believe they had him talking about funeral arrangements etc and dying in the same episode.

if this show makes it to 1969 I hope that season is all about Sally.

yeah Sally running away and becoming a hippie-lesbian-terrorist (she's what, 10 now? so in '69 she'll be 16?)

Is Rachel Ray involved in this scenario?

sally draper is hell of a little actress - where did they find this kid? she has the most ridiculous facial expressions.

Pretty sure it wasn't Ann-Margret's singing that made that sequence iconic.

sally draper is hell of a little actress - where did they find this kid? she has the most ridiculous facial expressions.

― Roz, Tuesday, September 8, 2009 12:59 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

her reaction to grandpas death seemed totally informed by lo-qual scripted drama then her mom tells her to go watch tv

yeah i love how clearly calculating sally is, but in that kid way of thinking you're getting with things when you really aren't.

getting away with things

also, i didn't even notice this until recently, but we're apparently on our 3rd actor playing her little brother. he's been such a non-entity that it hasn't mattered.

oh is that what happened? lolz I did think the new kid looked unfamiliar

I knew it wasn't the same kid as last season, but I didn't realize that last season wasn't the same as the first season.

Was Sal's wife the same actress as last season? She looked/sounded a lot different to me.

Is Rachel Ray involved in this scenario?

did ethan write any other jokes for you, or just this one

HEATH DEAD AND HEATH NEVER COMING BACK!

in her lil tutu and bun lisping away lol

I've heard people say that her speech was either too articulate or too bold (as in, children didn't talk that way to their parents back then), but I thought it was perfect, exactly the kind of thing that a kid Sally's age would get self-righteous about. I was much more skeptical about her ability to pronounce words like "effeminate" in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

yeah it was great

Iwas much more skeptical about her ability to pronounce words like "effeminate" in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

oh come on, she did stumble over "licentiousness"

the outburst is here @ #4 if anyone would like to review http://gawker.com/5354637/the-night-everyone-disappointed-their-parents/gallery

xp That was the only one she had a problem with, though!

is it weird how they called him grandpa gene as if there were some other grandpa he might be confused with?

It is weird, but that's how Betty refers to him (when talking to the kids that is.)

yeah its how hes known around the draper house

I always called my grandmothers "Grandma Mary" and "Grandma Rita."

yeah but that's bc you had two of them!

Oh I see what you're saying.

Yeah but Betty has two grandparents too.

Had that is. At least you presume she did.

my mother had two grandparents, too, but i grew up with only her parents in the picture as grandparents. we did not call them by their names, they were simply grandma and grandpa.

two *sets* of grandparents

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that kids draw their cues about what to call relative from their parents. Her mom refers to her father as Grandpa Gene. The kids are going to call him Grandpa Gene.

Even though I only had one granfather, he was known as Grandpa Lee. I think that's what he wanted us to call him.

I mean if you are saying Betty shouldn't be telling them to call Grandpa Gene but instead should be calling him Grandpa, yeah she should be, but I can also see why she might want to sort pretend that they are a "normal" family that had two sets of grandparents as opposed to a family with one set of grandparents and a father whose past is for her practically non-existent.

I remember mixing drinks for my parents and having to buy them cigarettes, but I never got to drive the car. I loved the look of triumph on Sally's face.

not really a should or shouldn't thing, just something i noticed as a weird detail.

Is effeminate really that hard to pronounce? I guess it would depend on the reading/writing level of the child, but I don't think it would be too difficult for someone Sally's age.

Yeah it's pronounced basically exactly the way it looks like it should be.

this isn't Lost, guys

It's pronounced the way it looks if you're used to reading advanced words like that. Anyway, it's maybe not the best example -- it was the only other word I could remember from that scene.

this is lost tho thats what u dont understand abt the island

"It's pronounced the way it looks if you're used to reading advanced words like that."

I think it's pretty clear that she's a good reader, but yeah this isn't LOST people. It's CSI.

Ha, I was thinking yesterday wouldn't it be awesome if the doorbell rang at the Draper house and Don went to answer it and it was Dick Whitman, also played by Jon Hamm.

i certainly wasn't trying to get all lostie on the details but bc they've made such statements about being so detail obsessed you start to notice like... everything.

her reaction to grandpas death seemed totally informed by lo-qual scripted drama then her mom tells her to go watch tv

xp isn't go watch tv becoming kind of a message/meme? i was trying to think, but i know that there was an episode relatively recently that used that line at a particularly choice moment, just when a kid was showing some sort of spark or something.

isn't go watch tv becoming kind of a message/meme?

oh is that why i keep saying it.

i blame all my bad parenting on memes.

I have blamed many of my parenting mistakes on lolcats.

ceiling parent is watching you masturbate

aw, i more meant purely within mad men. maybe i should've said 'motif'. just like a slightly less heavy-handed pregnant-smoking thing* (that isn't a criticism, by the way, i'm totally on board after the episode on sunday), it seems like something they're making a point about re: sixties parenting.

i've had that fucking bye bye birdie rip-off jingle stuck in my head for the last 36 hours. damn you, mad men.

― strongohulkingtonsghost, Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:13 AM

gonna kill u bc now it's been stuck in my head all morning!!!!

I remember mixing drinks for my parents and having to buy them cigarettes, but I never got to drive the car. I loved the look of triumph on Sally's face.

my parents always asked me to mix drinks for them and their friends, I figured this was normal until now. though I am not convinced it isn't normal.

obv would have to stick my fingers in dad's throat first and find a vein in grandma

my grandparents always made me clean their semi-automatic weapons back at the ol' compound

I was Sally's age in the late 80s and remember going to the store to buy cigarettes for my Mom when she was sick & we didn't have a car.. She wrote me a note instructing the clerk it was OK to sell to me. I was terrified. Now.. I smoke.

Watched it twice and I'm still not sure: Exactly what got broken when Don misplayed the Jai-alai ball?

the ant farm

bill it to the kid

ant farm destruction has got to be some foreshadowing

What was the deal with that ant farm when Joan put Hooker in that office - it was Bert Cooper's but just stored there? Something like that.

Hooker staring at the ant farm while griping that the office is "a gynochracy" = classick

the grandpa jean plot seemed oddly truncated - they def couldve kept him around to annoy don for a few more eps

"so soon?" was basically my reaction too.

this thread has convinced me i need to teach my kids how to mix drinks too.

when i have some.

kids.

It did seem abrupt, but it's only a 13-ep season. Things have to move fast, and I'm not certain that the whole Grandpa Gene thing wasn't just a device to move Sally from the background to being a more involved character.

I'm getting obsessed with the dates: this episode was ~6 weeks after the previous one (ep 3 - May 4, ep 4 - June 11)

I looked up some stuff about the burning monk and read an anecdote about JFK hearing about it while on the phone with RFK which reminded me that JFK is still alive. I think after last season with the Cuban missile crisis I somehow was convinced that this season was going to skip further ahead and be like 64 or 65 or something.

I was glad Gene died because I kept waiting for something to happen like him letting sally drive off a cliff or him mistaking bobby for a prussian soldier or something. I also think though that they realized they got enough mileage out of dementia gene and didn't need to milk that anymore, he was pretty lucid these last episodes.

I think the point is that he just dropped dead from a fourth stroke, which was always his primary medical concern (the dementia was just a byproduct).

when is the show right now? i've been gearing up for JFK assassination/Beatlemania, I was expecting the former to kick off the season actually.

June 11, 1963.

At this pace, the 3rd season may end with the assassination.

that's what i was betting on.

Or Roger's daughter's wedding, the next day.

or maybe the wedding gets canceled bc of it? or is that too much.

Maybe - I've always assumed the whole country pretty much shut down with grief and disbelief for a few days but don't really know.

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone going through with a wedding the next day after a presidential assassination.

eh u kinda have to - the arrangements have been made and paid for - the relatives have flown in

Point taken. It would probably be miserable for everyone, though... except for your weird uptight Aunt Vera, who hates Catholics and thinks Kennedy is the Anti-Christ.

I think people'd probably still get married, just make it a very quiet ceremony and not much partying at the reception. Totally miserable though, you're right about that.

For a second I thought Sally was going to copy the burning monk and set herself on fire to protest the unfairness of her grandfather's death.

Well, she knows where the matches are (and cigs!) How old is she supposed to be? I say 10 or 11, but Mr. Jaq thinks she's only 8 or 9.

9 my guess

Pretty sure it's nine. She had a birthday season one, right? Seventh, no?

I'm being like duh here but was the implication there was 'something' missing from the bye bye birdie commercial cos it was directed by a gay man

"I'm terrified of him catching balls in his face" = a portent of sal's forthcoming relationship w/pachi?

I think Roger nailed it, the "something missing" was that they had the wrong girl, so it just didn't work. I don't think Don would have promoted Sal if the gay thing had been an issue.

Still, the little "I told you so" look from Peggy was great.

The "something" was Ann Margret.

My initial interpretation was that the failure was to do with Sal's gayness; I think it was deliberately ambiguous though.

the girl in the ad looked very un-60s to me, all jiggling cleavage (would this have got through in 63?), ultra straight hair and feline features.

I had the same reaction.

fits ok, i think.

and i think Roger's insight into the commercial was otm - noting to do with Sal's gayness.

does don 100 per cent know that sal is gay? i mean it was sort of a little ambiguous. i can't tell if we're meant to think don definitely knows or not, but i guess we are.

Don knows. His and Sal's exchange on the plane home was loaded with double meaning - 'limit your exposure'. Wouldn't be surprised if Don sussed Sal out some time ago, shrewd guy that he is.

the look on Don's face when he was on the fire escape makes me think he didn't have any idea.

I think chap otm I guess, it sort of seemed like they wanted to show that Don didn't see anything overt but had it half sussed already and (unlike say Ken Cosgrove) didn't need to be bludgeoned over the head with evidence.

It is completely in character for Don to be okay with it all too, imo.

i think don maybe hadn't thought much about it -- because it's not the kind of thing that interests him or that he thinks is his business -- but when he saw sal with the bellhop it made sense to him and didn't matter except as a small fact.

Yeah, I think that's a fair summary.

i don't think "something's not right" comment had to do with gayness. i thought the point of the scene was to prove peggy right and illustrate that don's prescriptive campaign building (men want her, women want to be her, give the client what they want, don't try to teach/show them something better) is not really viable.

I think the scene definitely played off Sal's paranoia at being different, eg he seemed like he was meant to think that he'd somehow made it not sexy or didn't understand male sexuality. But Roger's quick sum up showed that wasn't the case.

my first thought was the gayness but it really couldve been any and all of the things mentioned so far - and its not like irl the gays havent been able to produce successfully titillating material for straights - anyway don endorsed sals talents while generally wtfing at the whole thing - he didnt seem to want to think abt it all too hard - yet another sign that don draper is falling out of love w/advertising

ok thx dudes I didn't want my homophobia to obscure the true meaning of mad men

yeah there was a lot going on in that scene, open to multiple interpretations - hard to say how much Sal's gayness/camp take on the clip was the source of discomfort. Good point that Sal took undoubtedly took it personally re: not knowing how to make a typically hetero-centric clip (and was Roger covering for him, or was Roger simply right?)

More interesting, I thought, was Don's validation of Sal, congratulating him for being a commercial film director, etc.

the whole set up imo showed the decline of sterling cooper - don and roger cashed out are really not mustering their previous ownership level of commitment

I think Roger was simply right. And Peggy was vindicated in that the ad was an imitation of a forced, feigned youthfulness. If anything, Sal's version had a bit more feral sexuality instead of the straight-up annoying giddiness of the Ann-Margret clip. And please someone get that song OUT OF MY HEAD GAH!

i think it was all of those things plus the gayness - classic shitstorm

xxxxxxxxxxpost - Ah, I wasn't even aware that Cooper had an ant farm in the office! (Missed the season opener, grr.) Guess the bonsai tree and Rothko don't hold his interest anymore.

I hope he adds something new and idiosyncratic every season.

And please someone get that song OUT OF MY HEAD GAH!

^^^this

BYYYYYE BYYYEYEEE BIIIIIRDEEE

The ant farm was in Duck's old office, right? Not Cooper's.

it was cooper's ant farm

I think it may be what the Patio guys said, 'magnanimously' in response to Roger, "It was our idea and it just doesn't work." If they'd run that ad, there would have been a lot of TV sets that me and the likes of Jaq would have taken an axe to. I don't think Sal's showtunes approach was the problem. I do think Peggy enjoyed smirking at Don and she may have been quite right in the beginning (being essentially Patio's target audience).

peggy was def right but thats not why the patio people didnt like the ad

xxp Yeah, there were little pagodas and other japonaiserie on top of it.

imo the ad's failure was an "uncanny valley" thing -- it's shot-for-shot, move-for-move, but it feels wrong because it's not 100% right. even 98% right can throw people off.

to lend support to that, in the previous ep Sal mentioned having seen BBB on stage and said the actress was good but "didn't have THAT" and pointed to AM.

1 gay peen?

I don't know if it's because this is the first season of the show that I'm watching as it's airing, but none of these episodes have been that interesting to me

I've watched all the seasons on a week to week basis, and for me neither of the first two really hit their stride till about half way through. Similarly, this one hasn't risen above amusing yet, but it probably will.

You know, in a weird way, Mad Men is kind of like Lost in that a lot of the pleasure is anticipatory -- you know stuff's eventually going to go down, so you just kind of revel in the gradual development of this grand narrative.

^^^
Yep. (except for the Lost bit, don't watch Lost.)

mad men is a spin off of lost fyi

its called lost not found

Read an article the other day where the show's writer (weiner?) said the fifth episode in a season of a well-crafted show is where things really get going - here's hoping for next week!

A quick search reveals ep 5 of S1 was the one in which Don's brother turned up, and ep 5 of S2 is one in which Don and Bobbie are in the car accident.

In the article I read, he was specifically talking about the Sopranos as well, this is the description for s1 ep5 which I haven't seen for a long time but I guess it introduced Carmela's priest and his therapist:

Tony and Meadow travel to Maine to visit colleges; and they discuss the nature of Tony's "business". Carmela fights the flu, and seeks comfort from Father Intintola after finding out that Tony's secret therapist is female. Tony comes across an old associate who has joined the Witness Protection Program and tracks him down for "business" purposes.

^^^
Probably my favourite ep of The Sopranos. That or the one where Tony fucks over the T-1000.

just watched this episode and loved it. i never like the sally actress before but she has definitely come into her own. great stuff.

tht is a great ep of the sopranos

also i don't think there was one mis-step in this episode in terms of writing or acting. kind of flawless in my eyes.

when i started watching this show, i didn't like all the characters. now i love each and every one of them.

my parents don't watch this show but every time I talk about it they get all St Louis Pride about Jon Hamm

so ... lol/awesome at this Mizzou commercial (24 seconds in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7UDOIvatgw

lol so cheesy!

forever.

God he really can just do that with anything.

the eyebrow-raise, so hot

ws

sal's bedroom scene was amazing – his wife's reaction to his dance. that's why the ad's failure fucks him up. but there's no way roger is 'covering for him'. they can see it's a good piece of work and it's what was asked for.

betty's father killed himself , right? he didn't want to be a burden = that's why he had the funeral arrangement talk and a couple of memorable good times with the kids then he let the high salt intake provoke a stroke.

i think that's a stretch. he was probably ignorant of the salt effects... i think he just knew it was coming.

no, think it's just a stroke. Todd Van Der Werff made an interesting point is his HND write-up. He noted the destruction of the ant farm as a portent for the lower workers in the company. innnnteresting.

Yeah, Gene died standing on line at the A&P.

it's 11:21 and still no post about this episode. because it sucked.

Jody Rosen (the other one) was tweeting about it while everyone else in the universe was talking about the VMAs. But he wasn't too happy with it either.

Will see it tomorrow, once iTunes delivers it to me.

I hate Duck so much, I don't even want to see him on this show.

not seen it yet, but the responses to this episode are kind of killing my day.

So much awfulness.

thank you, mad men, for crashing with a goddamned drug-induced dream sequence.

it's 11:21 and still no post about this episode. because it sucked.

― cutty, Sunday, September 13, 2009 11:21 PM

ha. srsly

It's not so much that it sucked as it is that it barely existed. I just watched the repeat and... what the hell did I just watch?

melissa, seriously? they finally start addressing the things you were going on and on about and now it sucks?

Yeardley Smith's cameo was the highlight for its WTF factor. Betty's dream sequences were the lowlight for their WTF factor. Weiner should have learned that The Sopranos was a great show in spite of its dream sequences (with a couple exceptions obv), not because of them.

melissa, seriously? they finally start addressing the things you were going on and on about and now it sucks?

^

yeah seriously!

other than the lame dream sequence crap it was ok.

melissa, seriously? they finally start addressing the things you were going on and on about and now it sucks?

Because there's no way to address important things in a way that is both blatantly offensive and boring?

that's a little too surface level.

I think I can be forgiven for not wanting to engage with this topic in-depth again on this board.

then don't make blanket statements about it? and don't criticize it? or just... don't post on the thread at all?

Okay, let me re-phrase. I am not going to engage on this topic in-depth with you. I have no time for someone baiting me into an argument in bad faith and who has proved that they have no desire to actually engage with what I say other than to make childish zings.

i didn't see any zings, childish or not. i'm just a little surprised that you diss the show for not addressing the topics you want it to, then when they do, you won't back up or elaborate on your statements about why it's so horrible. to be honest, you've tinged my viewing of this show so that whenever anything deals remotely with feminism or racism, i think 'i wonder what she thinks of it now?' and your unwillingness to discuss the issue past making your 'bold' statements (just as you did in the previous thread) makes me think you are the one who has no desire to actually engage other than to make herself feel better about her agenda.

on another note, i thought the tension in this episode was awesome. i felt uneasy the whole time, waiting for this awful thing to happen right up til betty finally went into the nursery to check on the crying baby.

I suggest looking on the previous thread for zings and plenty of elaborations. The fact that you don't agree with my elaborations does not make them somehow something other than elaborations. I laid out my issues as plainly as possible before. I laid out exactly what I expected from the show, and why I felt that a failure to meet those expectations was to me a failure of the show and not just a difference of direction.

If you want elaborations now, I'll say that I found Medgar Evers's appearance in Betty's dream both extremely offensive and hackneyed. He was voiceless and there only to define Betty's personal pain (and don't say "it was just a dream", someone wrote that dream and clearly thought the symbolism would be powerful). I didn't appreciate that we continue to be told that Peggy is talented (why is Duck making a grab for her of all people? did they ever even interact?), and that Peggy herself a) needs that kind of kick from a man to think of asking for a raise, and b) that she can't ask for a raise without citing irrelevant data (Don doesn't care that she moved to Manhattan, that was her choice). I hate that her main concern is being superior to her secretary and that she continues to evince a hatred of women that she show seems intent upon defending her for (she was "right" about the Patio account, but for the wrong reasons... the ad didn't fail to work because people found it shallow or shared her hatred of/jealousy of Ann-Margret, and she didn't deserve that smug smile on the way out of the meeting).

Hollis's brief voice was appreciated but not enough. And that the storyline so far centers around Pete is annoying for multiple reasons.

We didn't need yet another woman (Sally's teacher) throwing herself at Don for no real reason and failing to be professional.

Is that enough for you?

i liked how the delivery stuff was handled in this episode. betty had all this terror and dread and she kept trying to sublimate it by drifting into other scenes. pregnancies on tv aren't usually filled with terror and dread; it's usually sitcommy "waaah this hurts" shouting and then a tiny fuzzy head and everyone's happy. here there's a requisite moment of happiness and it's back to betty's dread.

I was talking about your comments re: this episode, so yes, thank you for elaborating.

Actually, Medgar Evers was referenced earlier in the discussion with Sally's teacher. It makes sense that he would show up in her dream because the situation was on her mind.

Of course it's shitty that Duck is using Peggy as a pawn to get back at Sterling Cooper and fulfill some personal agenda, but if it helps her assert herself, is it so bad? And this wasn't the beginning of her self assertion - she's been moving in this direction slowly all season (and all series). It's not fair to expect she'd become a rampant feminist overnight, especially considering her family and upbringing, which told her what a woman's position was. But she's taking steps in what feels, to me, like a very natural timeline for someone of her experience/background/disposition (disposition being the real key here - she's not a ballsy, brassy broad, most of the time). I don't think her main concern is being superior, it's being recognized with equal respect to that of her male peers. She'd expect the same from a male secretary. And sorry, she definitely deserved that smug smile.

So we introduced Hollis in a way that was effective. Pete is the more prominent character. Should we suddenly switch gears and make it a Hollis life story? It wouldn't fit/work.

The purpose of Sally's teacher hitting on Don isn't about showing weak or unprofessional women, it's about exploring how Don acts around/reacts to them. And it wasn't random... she was his fantasy at the may pole dance thing, of course something was going to come up in their later interactions. Or maybe not. But it wasn't about pointing her out as weak, imo.

good point, jbr! also, i found that whole process to be very educational. perhaps i need to study up on my 60s obstetrics history - i had no idea about the process by which they used to 'help' women deliver babies. i was kind of in shock about it all!

I don't really care whether or not Peggy is realistically meek for a character of her type, I am annoyed that she's in the position at all (this article lays out some of my other issues with Peggy and the women she is supposed to be representing, some of whom are vice presidents of companies right next door on Madison Avenue). And I don't think the show is doing a good job of portraying why anyone should take her all that seriously. I don't think she deserved that smug smile because not only did she object to the ad for reasons that had nothing at all to do with its ultimate failure, but she proffered no alternative to it. We rarely ever even get to see her work. Duck has no reason to value her especially over the other copywriters.

As for Medgar Evers, I don't think the fact that he was mentioned in the beginning of the episode justifies the inclusion of him as a bloodied, silent man in Betty's dream to serve as a symbol of her fear of speaking up about her dissatisfaction with her life. The issues have nothing to do with each other and it's offensive to equate them in a way that is meant to be powerful or clever.

To get to hear Hollis speak was nice, but I'm not talking about making the episode about Hollis's POV. I'm offended that this story is being told through the lens of Pete striving to be taken seriously and being rebuked for it. And I'm afraid that the speed with which he was rebuked was just them hanging a lampshade on the issue so they can feel free to ignore it for the rest of the season (there have been no casting sides for black characters or any characters who aren't white for the entirety of the rest of the season).

And how does the teacher being Don's fantasy have anything to do with her falling all over him and inappropriately calling his house? It was his fantasy and she had no knowledge of it, and yet she's the one we see losing control. Don is almost always pursued rather than the pursuer, and I find that both disturbing and unrealistic.

god, not again.

tonight was a bad night for TV, True Blood was equally underwhelming (at least this wasn't the season finale though). By next week I'll probably have forgotten everything that happened, except that the baby was born and Lisa Simpson had a cameo.

and for some reason the fact that the baby is named after Grandpa Gene seems like a bad omen to me. The fact that Betty is mentally AWOL probably won't help things either.

can you two take it to the other fucking mad men thread pls

I always figured that Helen Gurley Brown was the model for Peggy.

can you two take it to the other fucking mad men thread pls

i just skip their posts

Pete really reminded of Michael Scott in this episode.

The dream sequences and the teacher going all gooey over Don were a bit annoying, but other than that I thought this episode was fine, good even.

pete actually was on to something, though. when is michael scott ever right about anything?

was really hoping don was going to sneak out during the birth to go bang sally's teacher.

season one don would have done this. i miss this don.

now that the baby is born, this don will return

the teacher shall be banged

pete actually was on to something, though. when is michael scott ever right about anything?

That's true, it's just the way he went about it was so awkward and clueless, especially when he tried talking to Hollis about Admiral.

i also miss when this show had something resembling a plot instead of a bunch of lynch-ian (whoever mentioned this above was otm) set pieces and half-assed character studies where everyone's story gets told and no one's story gets told well.

thought the episode was fine, but i usually have to sit on these and see them again to make up my mind what exactly happened. post above could be OTM.

Melissa seems to suffer from quite a lot of cognitive dissonance watching characters that don't reflect her own values.

listening to the prison guard character was like pulling teeth. no thank you.

mad men eps always better second time around anyway

watched ep1 from this season again yesterday; a doozy

eugene as the janitor was so dumb

or maybe it was just his dialogue "surprise, it is me heh"

listening to the prison guard character was like pulling teeth. no thank you.

That whole scene was pretty useless.

I liked the look on Don's face when he called him an honest guy.

really thinking the best thing they could do here is tone down the willful randomness and refocus on don and betty (and maybe peggy), returning everyone else to the more manageable status of "well-sketched secondary and tertiary players." they seem to want to be giving everyone their due and instead all we seem to be doing is wallowing in everyone's tics and already established motivations.

am I the only one who loved grandpa gene?

Betty's mom standing behind Medgar Evers saying "this is what happens to people who speak up" was pretty chilling. The sad image of the prison guard and wife leaving the hospital w/o a baby also. WTF with all the references to watches? The fog of time?

Betty is mentally AWOL

Grief plus scopolamine will do that to a person.

That whole scene was pretty useless.

The dullest moments in MM history.

kinda scattered episode, some good stuff, some pointless stuff (esp. the prison guard dialogue). Betty's dream/tripout sequence was VERY Sopranos (lolz a caterpillar DO U SEE), seemed kinda out of place but I'd have to watch it again to really judge. I thought it was a little bit of a stretch for Pete to be so blase about race relations cuz frankly yes I would expect such a lilly white scion of a rich family to be at least a little bit of a bigot.

ws the caterpillar cgi?

the dream sequences were redeemable if only for the love the camera showed for january jones.

Those weren't dreams, they were hallucinations from the Twilight Sleep.

The sad image of the prison guard and wife leaving the hospital w/o a baby

OH! I didn't notice they were without a baby. :(

Neither did I. That gives the whole scene more of a point.

yeah I think I was the only one in the room who saw that there wasn't a babby w/ the prison guard.

I thought it was a little bit of a stretch for Pete to be so blase about race relations cuz frankly yes I would expect such a lilly white scion of a rich family to be at least a little bit of a bigot.

Not rly about race relations. It's Pete going all Data and not understanding why these humans are so concerned wrt each others' skins bcuz YOU CAN MAKE A LOT OF MONEY OFF OF EVERYONE DO U C? To imply that is has something to do w/ capital-Race Relations ennobles Pete too much.

Also, i was as much as 85% certain they were going to off Betty.

also compare and contrast pete asking abt TVs w/ Hollis and Don talking to the waiter about Lucky Strikes.

listening to the prison guard character was like pulling teeth. no thank you.

i thought the point was to sort of show don's whateverness and also give him a tiny bit of a wakeup call, which he'll feel for like 3 days and then go sleep with the teacher. but yeah, that guy was a little hard to take.

good juxtaposition with don walking in with the huge flower bouquet and the guy wheeling his ghostly looking wife in the other direction.

also compare and contrast pete asking abt TVs w/ Hollis and Don talking to the waiter about Lucky Strikes.

this is probably exactly how pete would see the conversation, because he's not quite enlightened enough to realize how awkward/offensive it was to hollis to approach the subject in that way.

I think I might be the only one who likes it when the show stops being propulsive and/or plot driven.

Yeah, I thought about that very first scene from season one with Don and the waiter, and how bumbling and awkward it made Pete look by comparison.

I was thinking, when Betty stopped in the hall at the end, she was contemplating smothering the new baby with a pillow. But maybe she was just trying to psyche herself up for being a mother to an infant again.

To imply that is has something to do w/ capital-Race Relations ennobles Pete too much.

its more that Pete seeing past the race relations aspect to the purely monetary angle struck me as unlikely, given his background. Now granted we haven't seen him do anything as overtly racist as Roger, but still.

right, bc don makes the waiter feel like he has something important to say about luckies, whereas pete kind of pigeon holes hollis into this 'your people like this thing. why?' corner.

i thought she was going to fall down the stairs in a half daze while holding baby. but yeah, probably just summoning the courage.

xpost

its more that Pete seeing past the race relations aspect to the purely monetary angle struck me as unlikely, given his background.

He is old NY wealth, educated and has friends (as per last episode) with war profiteer parents which suggest a financial amorality. I think the push for financial gain is raceless to him, esp with something as benign as TVs.
'You watch baseball on your RCA - don't lie'

i didn't think this was such a bad episode, but for the first time in watching the series (i'm one of the west coasters who watch at 10pm) by about 10:40 i was like "okay end already, i wanna get some sleep."

i was blitzed on cold medicine so betty's hallucination stuff felt appropriate.

the episode felt long, mostly because of the hospital waiting room stuff, but i guess that's what it feels like to be in a hospital waiting room, so... i appreciated less direct 'wow this happened!' moments and more digging into people.

The looks on both Pete and Peggy's faces at Duck's statement about their "secret relationship"!

am I the only one who loved grandpa gene?

― homosexual II, Monday, September 14, 2009 3:24 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

sally loved him very much!

(naw you're not)

what was the song playing during the dream sequence? because the tune of that was almost identical to the song that plays in Up (during the 'retrospective' sequence); assuming that Mad Men's slavish dedication to authenticity means this is an old tune, but the song from up is new, but there has to be some kind of relation.

Mad Men has featured anachronistic music before - a Decemberists song opened one episode.

^shhh we like pretend that didn't happen

haha I forgot about that.

That's because it didn't happen, it was a dream you had while giving birth

It's Me voy a morir de tanto amor from Sex and Lucia (2001) (Found in the comments here)

Mad Men is going to be the next show that everyone decides to hate despite any noticeable decline in quality (because it was always awful) and yet everyone always says it was amazing in the beginning and just went downhill.

The next Heroes or Lost, if you will.

I will not

troll

Heroes

LOL, are you trying to say that successive seasons of that show are in any way as watchable as the first?

never watched Heroes or Lost

better trollsy challops option woulda been BSG

the only good season of a show is its first one and the only good album by a band is their debut. everything else is shit.

the only good year of a person's life is the first year.

My first year didn't have enough strong female role models or interesting minority characters.

my first year had the wrong font!

haha

lolz at roger eating an icecream sundae.

I rewatched the scenes with the nurse waking up the prison guard and with him wheeling his wife down the hall to try to sort out what was up. Inconclusive. I had thought the wife was dressed to go home, but she's actually still in a robe and slippers. Definitely no baby in her arms, though it looks like she's holding something (potted plant?? surely not). They both have kind of strained smiles. So who knows. Maybe the guy's just embarrassed he swore to Don he'd be a better a man for his child's sake and that's why he looks away.

that scene was very odd, didn't the prison guard ignore don, perhaps out of shame or grief? don's confused/shocked reaction after walking past him makes jaq's interpretation of the scene make more sense

The next Heroes or Lost, if you will.

I'll give you Lost, because I don't think it actually did decline in quality, it's just that the setup was too big to maintain much of a series for very long before people were going to say (as I did) "Fuck this. It doesn't make any damn sense, and it's never going to." The acting and scripts were always pretty tight episode by episode, but the Big Mystery that was designed to keep you coming back just became too frustrating.

The sad image of the prison guard and wife leaving the hospital w/o a baby also.

I just watched this scene again, because I didn't notice that either -- it's true that there's no baby in her arms, but it also looks like Dennis and his wife are smiling before they notice Don.

(Sorry, didn't notice Jaq's post.)

lolz at roger eating an icecream sundae.

― LaMonte, Tuesday, 15 September 2009 03:46 (10 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^^^^^ srsly

the cgi dream sequences were jarring with the unwanted 6 feet under-y whimsy but otherwise i was pretty into this episode, though admittedly i was watching it a bit bleary at 3am last night. strongo otm about the sense of vague wallowing this series though, would appreciate a sharp, pointed episode to feel like this is all going somewhere.

skimmed melissa's complaints but (sorry to possibly boil this down unfairly) a lot of them seem to centre on personal expectations of certain characters being above whats around them, rather than whether their failures debilitate the show necessarily. really i agree with all her observations, but aside from that suspicion of general wallowing it's not spoiling the show for me as of yet.

Melissa's complaints reminded me of this:

http://comedians.comedycentral.com/patton-oswalt/videos/patton-oswalt---old-movies