Is it cool to be all into Nordic myths and NOT be a Nazi?

Jon Lewis, Wagner is writing about all the nordic legends that code as "the aboriginal culture of europe" i.e. before the Judeo-Xian menace. he is down with the cause in his themes. I can't front on his music but it's fascist stuff from stem to stern imo

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Monday, December 14, 2009 9:22 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is something that I worry about. I mean, I enjoy old stories about Odin and Loki and Thor and Sif, but I also think that people from other cultures and countries should be welcomed into our countries and neighborhoods and bloodlines and everything. Is there a place for me in this world? Like, every time you see a guy with some rune tattoos though, he's gonna have a swastika or somet Aryan brotherhood bullshit too. It's some bullshit, imo.

i think it's fine to be "interested in" - as in a sense of compartive mythology etc. (mythology of all cultures fascinates me no end)

the problematic area is where you start saying that one set of mythos is inherently culturally or otherwise superior to another

(then again, this is reductive answer to 9/10 of human conflicts, isn't it? perhaps easier said than done)

That's a sensible answer.

it wld probably sound less sensible if you could see me sitting at my laptop braiding orc skulls in my beard

Yes, comparative mythology is lots of fun. In Minnesota (hugely Scandinavian) there's no liberal prohibition on Norse myths and I can't imagine any skinhead type getting anything other than schooled hard if they tried to import their racial animosity into it. Appropriate response would be to feed a hockey puck to that person.

i know only one person who's "into" norse mythology (like, knows about it and likes runes) and he is a metal head and v v nice. his interest, i'm certain, stems from the same reason he is into comic books and sci-fi movies: norse mythology RULES

Suddenly I've got that Todd Rundgren's "Song of the Viking" going thru my head (Rundgren - that's a Swedish name isn't it?)

http://www.samcci.comics.org/reviews/covers/halfsize-thor127.jpg

i was wondering the same thing -- a few days ago i saw "severed ways" and, while it certainly had its flaws, i was totally into it. then i started worrying that people would think i was a nazi (which i am totes not) if i liked this movie. seems silly, but clearly i'm not alone.

it's cool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czuOSF_0yy4

I dunno, I guess I'm just hesitant because of the cultural weight attributed to, for example, Wagner's esteem for Norse mythology. Also, you tend to see a lot of imagery in the news media of (as stated above) racists with Viking tattoos. I might have picked a lot of this up from my parents' subscription to the SPLC Intelligence Report.

You can have esteem for it, and then you can go further and proclaim it as the one true way or whatever, and that's when it gets a little batty.

Hm never thought of it that way -- prob because I read Norse myths just like all the Classical ones, also American Indian stories about the Great Manitou and fairy tales and bible stories, and they basically all read the same.

The only person (non-ILX) I know who believes (or pretends to believe?) in Norse myth as an operative religion is Finnish. And kind of extreme herself. But great!

always loved that yngwie track tbh

Yeah, I'm so not operative any kind of religion.

You can have esteem for it, and then you can go further and proclaim it as the one true way or whatever, and that's when it gets a little batty
for me this applies to pretty much all sets of myths -- but i am not a believer of anything, really. i just like knowing the range of beliefs. (fairy tales, other stories invented by humans to explain existence, etc)

proclaim it as the one true way or whatever

Yeah I mean this is every religion ever? And I know ILX hates religion and is probably OTM in its wariness, but we don't stigmatize Christians (probably nearly enough) for sharing the beliefs of 49586356854079835 other evil leaders throughout history.

I think you can also say that you feel comfortable with or interested in these myths more than others w/o going batshit & renaming yourself Woden Hitler. So a dose of Kirby & Tolkein in childhood can make them seem more appealing than yr mediterranean alternatives; and they can make sense in landscape, especially at this time of year - that dusk-is-nigh, rain-on-the-birch-tree atmos of the Norse myths can make sense in dismal climes.
Best,
Baldr Göring

^^^

and they can make sense in landscape, especially at this time of year - that dusk-is-nigh, rain-on-the-birch-tree atmos of the Norse myths can make sense in dismal climes.

Oh, this for sure. This mmay have brought the whole line of thought on, tbh.

true, laurel

the thing for me is, as a former tolkien freak, that i was actually very interested in his sort of "rediscovery of the original english myths before roman and then judeo-christian imagery overran everything" - my interest wasn't racist so much as just interest in all things occult, hidden, lost. growing up in a spooky rural landscape with all kinds of signs everywhere about what-was-there-before and wanting to know what these things were about

there's a whole aspect to, say, modern interpretations of arthurian myth cycle which revolve around "oh noes romans and christians are subverting our original welsh legends" which got buried under ideas of "oh noes evil saxons destroyed roman culture which we normans must replace" during its medieval resurgance

i think you can be interested in pagan legendry and mythology in a "what did centralisation and the feudal system replace" as well

however, as i grew up, and in my early teens started noticing "hey how come all the bad guys are all 'degenerate' races with dark skin that come from the south/east" i noticed the whole racist subtext to tolkien which made me v v sad, almost as if i'd been lied to. but that still doesn't stop my kind of "what if...?" interest

x-posts

there's a whole aspect to, say, modern interpretations of arthurian myth cycle which revolve around "oh noes romans and christians are subverting our original welsh legends" which got buried under ideas of "oh noes evil saxons destroyed roman culture which we normans must replace" during its medieval resurgance

Hahaha it didn't get nearly buried ENOUGH; it survived to be made into a completely terrible proto-Christian Stephen Lawhead trilogy. Which I read. Along with every other possible interpretation of Arthurian anything, even into college where I took a special concentrated class on Arthurian lit.

Lest you think I'm exaggerating, the story starts in Welsh Britain and also concurrently in Atlantis.

Welsh Britain, which was overrun by those English/Germans

no, i mean it was buried in the contemporary (ha! - i.e. 1000 years later norman accounts - i'm thinking of mallory etc.) accounts. obv lots of people have rediscovered it - thinking mostly of the mists of avalon and crystal caves serieses

if only i'd been able to study special concentrated classes on arthurian lit i might have stayed in lol college

I'd say if you're not a Nazi then yes it's cool. If you are a Nazi then being into Nordic myths is probably the least of your concerns.

i'm talking about mythological representations mr. d, not attempting an alternate history of wales

there's a similarly troubling vein in american fixation on celtic lore and heritage. as a kid i was super into scottish history and robert the bruce and all that, and so i thought it would be cool about 10 years ago to go to something called the highland games in north carolina. and it was kinda cool, lots of music and celtic face painting and bonfires and drinking songs and so forth. but on arriving it was very hard to overlook the of white-power tattoos and t-shirts that were scattered widely through the crowd. gathering of the clans felt a little like gathering of the klan.

Compare Confederate flag with Scottish flag. Ku Klux Klan was set up by "Scots" anyway?

you get any group of 5000 white people gathering on a hillside in new england celebrating being white theyre' gonna be some bad apples i guess

Tips, I've heard that about games in certain places (the Pac NW also) but have not seen it myself so far, and no one I personally know has commented on same, although probably those people wouldn't notice WP tattoos, etc unless there were actual signs being paraded.

I think this is veering into the territory of that DFW essay about the state fair and the square-dance performance. Fine line, obv. Personally I think there's a lot more room to celebrate being Scottish or Finnish or etc than to glorify being "white" in particular, even if the "whiteness" is a product of 6 pioneer generations in Illinois.

Sorry, being "white in general". Kind of veered off in the middle there what with the x-posting.

Hahaha it didn't get nearly buried ENOUGH; it survived to be made into a completely terrible proto-Christian Stephen Lawhead trilogy. Which I read. Along with every other possible interpretation of Arthurian anything, even into college where I took a special concentrated class on Arthurian lit.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:58 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark

haha yes! I read those. Was sort of confused by the Atlantis part, especially because Atlantis = Minoan Crete = about 2000 years earlier than Arthur.

I'm concerned about the thread question a little myself - I spent a couple years doing Norse archaeology, and got into the pagan/folk metal scene as a result, and sometimes I worry about navigating "hey, this is fun, I like this music, and the sagas are fucking AWESOME" without giving any support or encouragement to "this is the superior culture and justifies my racism," or even "neo-paganism will replace stupid Christianity" aspects of it. The problem is that it's not always obvious from displays of swastikas what people's motives are. And of course when bands are singing in Norwegian I have no idea.

The problem is that it's not always obvious from displays of swastikas what people's motives are.

Wha'?

'i'm just really into right angles, y'know?'

I mean, if there were always displays of swastikas it would be obvious, but sometimes people are more subtle about it than that.

I've heard that about games in certain places (the Pac NW also) but have not seen it myself so far

yeah this felt like a specifically scots-irish southern appalachian thing. it was just a set of signifiers that hadn't really occurred to me. i wasn't even really tuned in to the celtic cross as a white-power symbol because, you know, i just haven't spent much time with white-power freaks.

and it wasn't like the whole festival felt like a race rally. there was just enough of it around to make me uncomfortable.

there was just enough of it around to make me uncomfortable.
this is kind of how i feel about the whole norse/celtic enthusiasm thing, really. i'm 100% sure i am not into white power, but if there are people who do believe that at an event that i am attending, it makes me feel v v uncomfortable about being there.

more white power to yer arm

Ha, last week, my boss, who's American and a sorta New Age hippy type, was going on about how Paganism and Pagans should be treated be the same respect as other religions, and I'm like, "Errrrrrrrrr, what do you mean by Paganism? You mean cuddly Celtic paganism and druids and all that or does Norse stuff count as well? And what about Greek and Roman paganism?". And she got all red faced and flustered.

I know pagans who think about as well of my religion as I think of theirs, and can be pretty snide about it, but I at least try not to roll my eyes at statements like "I'm thinking of maybe Norse gods, they're pretty cool, but mainly I just respect nature." It just seems like believing in Norse gods is basically a fashion statement.

It just seems like believing in Norse gods is basically a fashion statement.

It just seems like believing in Norse gods is basically a fashion statement.

When did Doom Metal/Black Metal and the like become "hip" and why?

haha, i am just reading that thread.

and i think religion's usually a bit more than a fashion statement - the veneration for nature part has some deeper significance, i think, it's just the selection of gods based on being "cool" that's weird to me. btw i am not parodying, i am quoting.

There's lots of cool gods out there

(i'm sorry, apparently i'm still annoyed with particular people not associated with ilx over particular conversations in which i really tried not to be an asshole about not understanding or agreeing with their beliefs and it did not occur to them to do the same. and that is making me act like one now. "my religious beliefs are valid and yours are not" is exactly the kind of conversation i try NOT to engage in, ever.)

i feel like ppl who claim to be any religion have wildly differing degrees of sincerity and reasons for doing so--believing in norse gods may be as cool in one circle as claiming to be christian in another.

i was actually very interested in his sort of "rediscovery of the original english myths before roman and then judeo-christian imagery overran everything"

I'm avidly interested in this right now, and like Amanda, I'm pretty 100% sure I'm not a white power advocate, but I often wonder if there's some subconscious racism reflected in the fact that my primary, almost exclusive, area of historical interest is the History of White People in Britain.

Well, mine too pretty much. But that's sort of where "we" "come from", at least in my case actually geneologically.

Good grief, of course it's fine to be into Norse/northern euro myths and legends, as gbx so succinctly put it BCUZ THEY'RE AWESOME. They can even be your 'favorite' myth-school and it doesn't make you a racist. The slippery slope only starts when as stated above you start thinking it's the only true strain of myth borne of the uncorrupted people etc etc.

C'mon they're such great stories and in what other set of myths do you get that sense of FATALISM, like even for the gods life's a bitch until you die.

I think J0hn is not OTM in his response to me quoted at beginning of thread-- I would submit that when Wagner somposed the Ring the 'coded' norse myth/racist xenophobia thing had not yet been encoded, nor did he encode it at that time. By the turn of the century the encoding had sure happened though.

see, that has not been true for me. i've come sort of late to this game. i was mostly interested in afro-caribbean syncretism and the influence of indigenous cultures in hispanic latin america, but then i got old and started to want to know more about europagans, i guess.

(xp to jenny)

Back to Jenny, I guess the unconscious racism of our whole culture/world/wahtever is that even people who DON'T trace their descent from lolAlbion sort of feel like their CULTURAL inheritance comes from there. Or something?

see, i'm much more of a james g frazer about this and want to trace the common lines and archetypes between all mythological sets of beliefs

perhaps i'm more familiar with the white, predominantly "celtic" (whatever that means) because of my background and genetic origins. but the things that *really* interest me is where you find the same idea or archetype repeated in "celtic" folk tales and indian myths and african stories and whatever. at that point it stops being the merely personal search for some kind of individual cultural background and discovering something common about all of humankind

x-posts

just throwing this out there but i have a passing interest in this stuff and i feel like it's less race-based and more learning "holy shit there was a bunch of rad history and culture that has kind of been glossed over by christianity"

"celtic" (whatever that means)

Indeed

a bunch of rad history and culture that has kind of been glossed over by christianity

History of everything cool in the world, imo.

fuckin a right

Also, speaking of swastikas, I knew a white woman of Irish descent who used to wear a swastika necklace and get very defensive if anyone suggested maybe she might be upsetting people with it because it is a Native American symbol of power DUH and I was thinking about this the other day and the blind invocation of that much privilege is kind of breathtaking.

xp - maybe, Laurel. Or it could be that most of the myths that make it into mass consumption are white people myths so that lays a foundation for interest early on. I don't know if it is an excuse, but part of my interest definitely comes from the White People of Britain being my people, ancestrally. Another part of my interest comes from a sincere belief that the Christian church ruined things for lots of people and a wish to pinpoint exactly when and where it all went south.

xpost to Laurel upthread - Yeah, I had an "oh shit" moment related to that concern that prompted my switch from European to American archaeology. On the other hand, I fear that I'm now in danger of "othering" people in my own society by exoticizing different cultural influences in the past. I'm not sure how you get around it. (I have a lot of disagreements with Frazer's whole approach but see the worth and appeal of being comparative, just in different ways.)

The only person (non-ILX) I know who believes (or pretends to believe?) in Norse myth as an operative religion is Finnish. And kind of extreme herself. But great!

That's kinda weird, wouldn't it make more sense for her to believe in Finnish mythology? Which is completely different from Norse myths...

I know there have been some attempts by Finnish extreme right-wingers to appropriate Finnish mythology for their purposes, but thankfully these attempts have been so marginal that being interested in Finnish myths doesn't really carry racist connotations. So if you want to get into Nordic myths without the racist taint, try Kalevala, yo! (Unfortunately Finnish mythology tends to be a bit less cool than the Nordic one. For example, Väinämöinen, the main dude in Kalevala, tends to fight his fights by singing, not so much by sword or hammer.)

There's also the pronunciation issue.
(Now I am curious though! Sounds interesting.)

xp - That was always my interest in Latin American myth as well -- the cultural imperialism of Spain/Europe was not entirely successful, and it's fascinating to see the little ways that native culture continues to exist even today. For instance, my Mexican students insist that people refer to Mixtec languages and other indigenous languages as "dialects", when in fact they are discrete languages. I realize this has nothing to do with Vikings, but it's a fragment of the pre-Christian past that manages to be integrated culturally (and linguistically).

dumnonii ftw

For example, Väinämöinen, the main dude in Kalevala, tends to fight his fights by singing, not so much by sword or hammer.

ok, this is one of the coolest gods i've ever heard of. need to find more about him

see also: dia de los muertos, underground santeria congregations in major metro areas, etc

the main dude in Kalevala, tends to fight his fights by singing, not so much by sword or hammer.

I don't know, I think that's awesome! xp - and I am clearly not the only one.

Kalevala is super cool, probably cooler than norse mythology tbh, and v v different. But it was sorta 'codified' in the 19th century in a literary way by a single author, so there are big differences in evolution there.

how many Finnish metal bands are called Kalevala?

actually i've just googled, and i thought that was the case - tolkien did actually incorporate a huge chunk of finnish legendry into bits of his world, especially elven lords etc.

Yeah I dunno she's an adopted Finn w a Swedish mother -- I think she's rad, but I suspect that the people who represented believing in Thor as a good idea might have been a bit farther right than I would like. She herself is DEFINITELY, outspokenly a left-winger but I'm not sure she has considered where the people who told her about those myths were coming from.

I guess the Norse mythology reflects the fact that vikings were fighters and conquerors, so there's a lot of battles and stuff. Whereas Finns were mostly farmers and didn't much bother with conquering, so Finnish mythology is more about the search for general prosperity. There's also a lot of stuff in Finnihs myths about doomed romantic relationships and other unfortunate choices leading to suicide, I'm not sure where that comes from.

Duh, Tolkien specifically studied the Kalevala as he was writing & generating his ideas. There's, like, a whole PBS special about this, or something.

You know, that is pretty fascinating, Amanda, the ways that native culture peek through the veneer of dominant imperial culture. I also think it's interesting how these breakthroughs of native culture are depicted in horror movies/books and stories/radio plays as being a terrifying and scary and threatening thing. One of my nerdier hobbies is listening to old time horror radio shows and there are so many where an Englishman unearths some Roman/Celtic artifact only to bring pagan horror reigning down on the entire village.

There's also a lot of stuff in Finnihs myths about doomed romantic relationships and other unfortunate choices leading to suicide, I'm not sure where that comes from.

Uh I'm gonna go out on a frozen limb and guess "the local weather."

dude, my d&d nerd tolkien days are about 3 decades ago, my memories are a bit rusty at my age, alright?

how many Finnish metal bands are called Kalevala?

The only Finnish band called Kalevala was a prog band from the 70s, I think. But many Finnish metal bands have obviously incorporated stuff from Kalevala into their lyrics.

jenny - see also "ancient indian burial ground" in american horror flicks

Yes! Definitely.

And uh raining down, I mean. Hi. xp to myself

Uh I'm gonna go out on a frozen limb and guess "the local weather."

Well yeah, but the weather's pretty much the same in Norway and Sweden too... I'm not super familiar with Norse myths though, I'm not sure if there's a lot of suicides there too.

Sorry, Karen T, the "duh" was uncalled for. I just thought that ground had been trodden and trodden and trodden again with the release of the LOTR movies.

Uh I'm gonna go out on a frozen limb and guess "the local weather."

I was going to say booze

I mean, Poltergeist is the obvious example of how Native American mythology is the cause of and solution to all of the whites' problems. You know, now that I'm thinking about it, even though the house is built on an ancient Native American burial ground, why are all of the ghosts that Carol Anne sees floating up the stairs and into the light wearing European-style clothing?

thank you for reading my off topic posts about latin america jenny. remind me to tell you someday about the intrusion of santeria into my workplace!

jenny - i love that undercurrent in so much horror writing - the "creepy elder stuff seeping through from the past" is a recurrent meme in many different cultural ideas of horror around the world. poltergeist is exactly one of the things i was thinking of! but also amittyville horror, bits of friday the 13th television series, etc.

s'ok lauren. i kinda tend to forget that the whole lotr thing had a revival this past decade. i am old, lol

will go drive my tank into mordor for my sins

I'm sure the Finnish papers tend to exaggerate these things, but I remember reading from somewhere that Tolkien knew Finnish, and that it was one of the main influences for the Elf language.

Apparently the story of Turin Turambar in Silmarillion is also kinda similar to the story of Kullervo in Kalevala.

For some awesome Kalevala inspired music, of course head for the orchestral oeuvre of Sibelius, especially Kullervo, the 4 Legends From The Kalevala (aka Lemminkainen Legends), Pohjola's Daughter, Tapiola and Luonnatar.

(the sequels to the poltergeist film went further beyond the "ancient indian burial ground" meme and became stupider and simultaneously weirder at the same time)

jenny - yeah, those reactions are all over the place, totally blind to the fact that native cultures are WITH US TODAY! you hear attitudes like "ooh 2012 the world is going to end, haha weren't those ancient maya crazy" when there are lots of modern maya speaking mayan languages and doing what they've been doing for 1000 years since the collapse of palatial maya civilization, or "don't dig up a burial ground, indians used to live here and you could be cursed!" when actually, indians have been living in new england for thousands of years and continue to live in towns, govern themselves, have jobs, etc...romanticizing the primitive is just so much more exciting. (much like why it is more exciting to read viking sagas than hang out in rural iceland today, i guess.)

Amanda, I was reading your stories too, and I was thinking about House of Rain which is this great book where a guy follows tiny archeological/mythological signs of the Anasazi from their cliff dwellings into the deserts of the SW, into Mexico, and then to the mountains in South America, tracing how their beliefs influenced the stories/cultures of their neighbors as they migrated southward over the generations.

I guess they were following available water during a centuries-long climatic change toward drought, which forced them out of the pueblos and made them start walking south. The fact that they just kept going, looking for certain things like tropical birds that were part of their nearly mythical heritage-memory, and then finally intermarried with their neighbors, all combined to make it SEEM like they "disappeared". I mean because for my entire school experience, we were told that no one KNEW where the Anasazi went. Which it turns out isn't true at all.

Yeah-- 'romanticizing the primitive' is the real slippery slope. So hard not to do. Sometimes I fear I am not acute enough to unpack that particular puzzle.

(the sequels to the poltergeist film went further beyond the "ancient indian burial ground" meme and became stupider and simultaneously weirder at the same time)

I know!!!! I was thinking about Craig T. Nelson in the sweat lodge with Will Sampson calling on Native American spirit guides to solve a problem like the ghost of a crazy white guy leading a fundamentalist apocalyptic cult... I mean, that's pretty awesome.

Amanda - I cannot wait to hear about the intrusion of Santeria in your workplace.

Karen Tregaskin - you are cool and I would like to be your friend.

Man, Craig T. Nelson showed up this thread!

on this thread!!

Laurel, was it definitely them who migrated, or their cultural influence but not necessarily the people? am curious because i don't really know about the anasazi. there's a lot of "how did they disappear?" mystery drama around native cultures though and a lot of them didn't disappear at all (again, see new england), it's kind of ridiculous!

:-D jenny - likewise

sorry for being a thicko newbie but who is amanda and what are these awesome stories you are all talking about? this sounds like the kind of thing that's right up my alley

A - would like to hear the Santeria stories too as I'm currently also experiencing an intrusion of Santeria at work. Well, sort of.

you put a sublime song in my head and i am mad @ u

it's in my head too now. at least ur not alone.

Maria, I'm so glad you asked!!!!! WELL, there were already sophisticated trade routes in place, so their pottery and other artifacts preceded them along trade routes, and tropical feathers and bird species were traded northward to fulfill a place in the pueblo rituals; those elements were probably left over from some cultural memory of being from a tropical place, or maybe from centuries of climate change that left the area no longer tropical but just fragments of that past in their lore.

So when the people started actually MIGRATING south over generations and generations -- this wasn't so much some kind of Trail of Tears thing as a general drift over a couple hundred years -- their wares were already desired/valued and so they had something to offer/teach as they moved into other communities.

totally blind to the fact that native cultures are WITH US TODAY!

Right! And also, not scary/weird/murderous, just different! 2012 as the human expiration date is kind of hilarious. "If only we had a Mayan to help us understand! Oh well."

I'm totally guilty of romanticizing the primitive - it's my third reason for such at acute interest in pre-Roman Britain, and it's this enticing idea that there once existed a time when women were large and in charge as village elders/spiritual leaders/wise women/whatever. I blame The Burning Times.

Amanda lives in Chicago and is my IRL friend (though I met her here on ILX) and she likes The Wicker Man, linguistics, cooking, and obscure folk music.

sooooo many xposts!!!!!!!!!

you put a sublime song in my head and i am mad @ u

ahahaha me too fuuuuuuck

I think the interesting thing about British folk culture, and one that doesn't apply to, say, Norway or Finland, is what a mishmash it is. There's increasingly compelling linguistic and genetic evidence to suggest that most modern 'ethnically' English people are highly mongrelized Britons with overlays of Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Danish and some Norman. I think the evangelization of England, too, is a mixed bag and not the entirely positive or entirely negative one that most people wish to subscribe to.

Laurel what is some good non-fic re: the indigenous migrations and cultures you're talking about?

House of Rain

This book is rad, u guise.

thanks laurel! i find movement of things vs. movement of people very hard to figure out in archaeology so i am always curious about how people do it, should look into that book.

xpost - that is exactly the angle i am into in american historical stuff. it's so much more interesting than "cultural purity," whatever the hell that is!

Actually every Craig Childs book is seriously rad, I am a big big fan. But this one in particular is like a super awesome crypto-puzzle about something totally contrary to what we were all taught in school, so obviously it holds enormous appeal to us weirdos.

There's increasingly compelling linguistic and genetic evidence to suggest that most modern 'ethnically' English people are highly mongrelized Britons

Whisper it, they're Welsh really

I sent gbx some CC books once but I don't think he ever read them. Ingrate. If you live by him, ask him to loan them out.

i think the same thing happens even in the uk in many ways - that people are all like OH NOES THE MYSTERIOUS BEAKER PEOPLE WHO ON EARTH WERE THEY AND WHERE DID THEY GO?!?!?

and then scientists do actual genetic testing - remember a case near here, with the infamous "cheddar man" 10000 year old skeleton of prehistoric man and turns out he's a close relative of people still living in the town

In San Francisco I had friends who were of Swedish and Norwegian descent and they were into noise and black metal and also into reading about Asatru (old Scandinavian myths turning into ritual neo-paganism). They wore Thor's hammer necklaces and every summer solstice they had parties where we would make flower-crowns and go to a forested park and dance around the trees, drink "mead" and "frolic" (their words). It was fun. They didn't hate other people who weren't Scandinavian and they weren't racists (one was dating a Mexican dude), but they *were* into feeling connected to a past and a different culture. To me it seemed quintessentially American, no diff. from "Kiss me I"m Irish" St. Patrick's Day blah blah, just more obscure and geeky. I have known Icelandic people into Asatru and it seems to me that these gestures and practices have a different political effect in a highly racially homogenous Scandinavian country than in the US of A, regardless of the intentions of their practitioners.

fwiw Karen Amanda posts here as La Lechera

I cld learn to use commas.

I sent gbx some CC books once but I don't think he ever read them. Ingrate. If you live by him, ask him to loan them out.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:09 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

!!!

wait what does CC stand for?

Speak for yourself, Tom D. Iz a Pict.

xp Craig Childs, does no one read ANYTHING?

cultures move, patterns of behaviour and ways of making certain goods (be they beakers or bronze bits - i.e. the things that survive in the ground) will travel great distances but when they actually look at the genetics of the people they tend not to move in the great waves of invasions that "history" would have

yikes sorry folks. i am amanda. i am not that awesome, but i'm alright.

basically here is the most recent one:
we have three campuses, and one of them is on the west side, where there are a lot of puerto ricans. the woman who was running the west campus, we'll call her Mariela (not her real name), was replaced. she had been there for a really long time and had fallen ill. she wasn't doing much work around the place and it showed. we had a lot of rats and roaches scooting around the computer lab and stuff like that. the woman who replaced her, we'll call her Carmela, is also puertorriquena. one day about 6 weeks into the semester she received a text from mariela out of the blue about 5 months after she left. the text said "i would like to talk with you about what's going on at [name of institution]"

carmela was terrified. she went on and on about how she is NOT calling Mariela back under any circumstances and how there were dead animals around the parking lot and now she knows why.

knowing nothing about this, i asked a coworker why Carmela was freaking out about a text from Mariela, who seemed pretty sedate for the most part. So sedate, in fact, that she rarely was there or did any work. i was told that Mariela was an active practicer of santeria -- hadn't I seen her office?

Then I realized, I had seen her office -- it was covered in little doodads and geegaws that I had previously thought were just that -- little thingies that reminded her of home. Not so, says everyone else. She believed they were magical and would keep our campus running in her absence.

my apologies about the Sublime song. it sucks.

According to the WHO, there are three Finno-Ugric speaking peoples in the countries with the top 15 suicide rates.

i was going to say "who's karen amanda?" then realised you were speaking to me about this mysterious amanda! hello la lechera you sound fascinating!

x-post hurrah, thanks for explanation

The Finns, the Hungarians and who...?

xp

Some Siberians I imagine

laurel that book sounds awesome -- and i just visited mesa verde this summer, so there's that too
will read!

xps the cultural mish-mash sort of applies to Scandinavian myth too though. no swedish, danish etc identities stretches further back than 150 years or so, and the whole concept of the Viking is more or less a 19th century construction as well. those nationalist inventions are what the nazis and other crazies usually draw upon, not the more 'original' mythology. so in response to the thread question, yes it's cool

Or are Estonians as suicidal as Finns and Hungarians? (xxp)

it is taking all of my self-control to keep from posting a link to the "Santeria" video here

O I guess they only got to Northern Mexico. Anyway, same diff. I shd re-read it too!

has anyone read the ronald hutton book(s) about druids? they're very illuminating re: how different cultures appropriate ancient peoples for their own devices. it's really easy to do with druids on account of their considerable ancientness.

She believed they were magical and would keep our campus running in her absence.

Didn't the roaches and rats kind of put that assumption to bed?

Hey, maybe we should make that book our next book club selection, Amanda!

Love this idea of "disappeared" people never actually leaving the area. It's like a archo-genealogical Agatha Christie locked room mystery.

I meant the Craig Childs book, although I would read the Druids book, too. (was that the one that was part of your Halloween costume?)

this was a very interesting book which addressed notions of "englishness" and "britishness" from a genetic and linguistic point of view take it with a grain of whatever salt you require:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Oppenheimer#Origins_of_the_British

WELL, apparently the existing Hopi would LIKE it to remain a mystery -- it's possible that their inherited legends/religious practices have the kernels to what happened, historically, in them...but they're not telling. And I mean, REALLY not telling.

well, she wasn't there to see the vermin, so she didn't think they were a problem. the rest of us who had to work/study there with roaches creeping out of the keyboards? we knew. there was some bad juju in that place. it has since been about 50% fixed up, but still has its issues.

yes -- that's the druid book. and i don't recommend it for people not extremely interested in these things. the other one (house of rain) might be better.

that British ancestry mainly traces back to the Palaeolithic Iberian people, now represented best by Basques, instead. (From wikiped)

Yes, well, it's not a secret that the Basque and Scottish traditions both have sword dances, and some other traditional dance elements are weirdly similar.

laurel i will get to them one of these days! i swear!

and the whole concept of the Viking is more or less a 19th century construction as well.

Who busted up all those English monasteries in 7-800, then?

did you read all the books i told you to read yet ; )
xpost

My book recommendation re: this thread--

http://www.amazon.com/Scandinavian-Folk-Belief-Legend-Nordic/dp/0816619670/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260897734&sr=8-1

not yet harbs :(

that looks good, jon lewis

Amanda - I work with a lot of kids from PR too. One of those kids is on my caseload and we're becoming v close. He is currently in court for a case brought against him by his mom who happens to practice Santeria. Right now he's blaming everything that goes wrong in his life on the fact that she is working some dark magic against him and, since I'm working on his behalf, most likely on me too. He is really terrified of this and it's sort of tough trying to talk about it while trying to remain delicate esp since he keeps telling me that I'm in for it now too.

xpost - yeah, there were danish/swedish/norwegian distinctions way back then too. they just didn't map on perfectly to modern states, which makes sense given that no such thing existed and pretty much all of them were 17th-19th century constructions.

that sounds tough erica...hope he winds up all right.

the most interesting thing about that origins of the british book is the notion that parts of england have *always* been anglo-saxon, or rather, at least since the last ice age. the idea of divided britain being much much older than the dark days following the roman occupation

this doesn't stop yr "celts" - i.e. yr scots, picts, welsh, irish, cornish, etc. - from being aggrieved at anglo-saxon expansionism in the last millenium or so but it does put a different slant on this idea of anglo-saxons as being invadors of this island (an idea revived by normans as justification of suppression of the conquered saxons)

sorry for derail

xposts galore - I read the first, slightly easier Hutton book on Druids, not the new, heavier one - liked it a lot, but iirc it's a mess of stuff that I'm interested in/have spent time with anyway - c17th antiquarians, c18th national epicists, minor c19th novelists, pagan revivalists, etc. Just found it a really solid, fun study of people making insane shit up on the basis of a small passage in Tacitus.

ENBB, better call this guy:

http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/116722-angel_heart.jpg

Y'know, this is America and I love everybody but I'm sorry, I just don't rent to Picts.

xpost

this is the first i've ever heard of picts!

looking for some pictorial representations of picts atm

this doesn't stop yr "celts" - i.e. yr scots, picts, welsh, irish, cornish, etc. - from being aggrieved at anglo-saxon expansionism in the last millenium or so

oldest argument over a fence in history?

watch out for those picts' acts

Yikes, Erica. It's always difficult for me to walk the fine line between "I'm not afraid of this, so you don't need to worry for me" and getting a little bit sucked into the drama because I'm v superstitious and don't want my life to be ruined by dark magic, y'know! On the other hand, it sure is an easy out to blame everything that goes wrong in your life on black magic, isn't it?

this is the first i've ever heard of picts!

What?

um, i'm american?

Ah! But I thought they were fairly well known.

who do you think wrote the pictionary?

la lechera, the power of the mind is strong enough that it doesn't really matter if these things "work" or not - simply the belief that they *do* work is strong enough for them to be effective

hey, i'm cornish, i'm just a pasty in this whole pict business!

Picts = dudes who lived in "Scotland" before the Scots showed up

yeah i knew about scots and celts and crap. just never gave much thought to it.
know what i really want is like, a book about how everyone got there in the first place. not the bible.

x-post to A - Yeah, exactly. This kid esp since he has issues with taking responsibility for his actions and decisions. He's also a self-proclaimed huge drama queen so is probably making this a much bigger deal than it really is but even though I'm not scared of it it's def creepy to imagine some little old lady who I've never even met actively wishing me ill and doing things she really believes will cause harm to both her son and me.

in my head it's like humans first show up in africa and then suddenly it's the middle ages and there are white people in europe. but i don't know what happened in between. xpost to me

yeah i knew about scots and celts and crap. just never gave much thought to it.
know what i really want is like, a book about how everyone got there in the first place. not the bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Oppenheimer#Origins_of_the_British

^^^^^^^^^^^^ seriously this book does a lot of explaining

ok! thanks!

Who busted up all those English monasteries in 7-800, then?

well people from Scandinavia. just saying that the stereotype of the Viking and a lot of Norse paganism was mashed up and trimmed to fit nationalist agendas. there were distinctions between different people even back then like Maria says, but it was between geats, goths, danes etc, not with any direct correlation to modern nationalities.

called 'picts' bcuz they painted themselves w/blue patterns if i recall corrctly

"Germans" are kinda fascinating too

painting yourself with woad = disgusting savages imho

The Norse and the Danes fought each other a lot, especially over the British and Irish isles; the Norse generally being the victors in Scotland and Ireland and the Danes taking England (not only the Danelaw, but Knut, Harold Harefoot, Harthacnut and Harold Godwinson). Of course by the latter stages, the Danes (or at least their royal line) were also subjugating the Norse.

Tales depict the Dagda as a figure of immense power, armed with a magic club and associated with a cauldron. The club was supposed to be able to kill nine men with one blow; but with the handle he could return the slain to life. The cauldron was known as the Undry and was said to be bottomless, from which no man left unsatisfied. He also possessed Daurdabla, also known as "the Four Angled Music", a richly ornamented magic harp made of oak which, when the Dagda played it, put the seasons in their correct order; other accounts tell of it being used to command the order of battle. He possessed two pigs, one of which was always growing whilst the other was always roasting, and ever-laden fruit trees.

The Dagda was a High King of the Tuatha Dé Danann after his predecessor Nuada was injured in battle. The Tuatha Dé Danann are the race of supernatural beings who conquered the Fomorians, who inhabited Ireland previously, prior to the coming of the Milesians. His lover was Boann and his daughter was Breg. Prior to the battle with the Fomorians, he coupled with the goddess of war, the Mórrígan, on Samhain in exchange for a plan of battle.[1]

Despite his great power and prestige, the Dagda is sometimes depicted as oafish and crude, even comical, wearing a short, rough tunic that barely covers his rump, dragging his great penis on the ground.[1]

need to get behind this dude as ilx's official pagan god imo

one permanently roasting pig ftw

sonderangerbot - I see what you're saying. I probably missed yr point because, due to avid historical interest, when I think of Vikings I think of shaggy dudes from the north rolling up on Lindesfarne.

the stereotype of the [insert mythological/historical figure] and a lot of [insert culture here] paganism was mashed up and trimmed to fit nationalist agendas

aaand that's pretty much universal.

Wow I like this guy!!!

xpost

Identifying yrself w/some historical/mythological idea based on genealogy or prophecy or whatever is pretty SIGNIFICANT, pretty INTERESTING at least. The people who do so out of at least feeling they're having a bad time get to imagine some Shangri La without their enemies. The viking trinkets for sale on the BNP site seem a bit joyless, there out of political necessity rather than curiousity&glee. Americans having imaginative affection for some idea of a true homeland is mostly just funny, I guess the pull is more powerful when yr separated by time AND space.

It's not about genealogy though, just escapism. The ppl I've met that are most into British history or folklore are mostly old bookish ppl who like walks and New Zealand and don't care about their appearance. To place actual importance on your ancestors 1000 years back living in Britain is pretty suspect. The history of Britain tells me about where I live, and where you're from is a part of your identity, but you'd have to ask me a lot of questions about myself before I got onto Beowulf. This norse shit is less part of my make up than the X-men.

dragging your penis about on the ground could get kinda messy tho x-post

It's not about genealogy though, just escapism.
super otm

ie get me away from here to a land where people have flowing hair and sweet helmets and do cook kickass primitive things like kill animals for food and smite their foes

and use cauldrons

man, I meant Americans having imaginative affection for Britain as their true homeland is funny, sorry.

xxp in irish mythology that's called cork

in order to be obsessed with your background, you have to lose your connection to it a little first

i can understand the obsession in these cases, with wanting to know where you're from as part of who you are, when you have been disconnected

Yeah but the stoic if-i-die-i-die tone of norse myth does speak to anyone who grew up in a cold northern place I would think.

xp to ogmor

a bit maybe. I don't know if inuits give much of a shit about it.

it's very easy for anyone who has grown up in the same country as their parents and their grandparents to sneer at people who have any kind of romanticism for an (albeit imaginary) homeland

for the displaced, a homeland is as valid an (escapist) fantasy as for those rooted people who dream of moving to london or nyc or some other place to go use as an exotic party pit

Exotic party pit with two VERY SPECIAL PIGS

I guess I don't think of most white Americans as displaced people. You have your own country, it's amazing, you are the best at music. The idea that that background is too new or not pure enough seems weird to me, especially when the dream solution is like some magic version of Wales.

tbh, it sounds like you're romanticising america as much as any of the americans discussed on this thread are romanticising "wales"

I don't know that too many Americans romanticise Wales, or anyone else does really

NO OTHER LAND CAN COMPARE

and besides that, in the same vein of thought america belongs to other native peoples, it wasn't exactly virgin territory.

in the same way that england belongs to the native english?

england belongs to the welsh, clearly. now GERR AWF MOOIIII LAAANNND!

http://www.jpgr.co.uk/r5936_d.jpg

You have your own country, it's amazing, you are the best at music.

I don't know about music, but we are the best at pizza.

yeah but when you're eating that pizza, don't you just wish you were listening to runrig instead?

is that a paul mccartney rebel song? seriously?

"Great Britain you are tremendous"

ur doin it rong

A tad embarrassing that song, eh Paul?

could be worse

http://www.cornwallgb.com/images/cornwall_cornish_maps.gif

good stuff itt while i was at the gym. jon lewis thx for that book rec--totally wishlisted that.

I like the idea that truly nationalistic Cornish people have no idea what the coastline of the rest of the UK is, even Devon.

or maybe that's just weird cropping.

I don't know if inuits give much of a shit about it.

although inuit cultures also known for having a stoic if-i-die-i-die kind of attitude! coincidence or environmental determinism, hmm?

also one of the norse mythology loving, odin worshiping people i know is from cornwall and mildly nationalistic, so it's kinda funny that the thread wound up there.

everything ends up in cornwall eventually

shake the country hard enough and all the nuts roll down here

man, I meant Americans having imaginative affection for Britain as their true homeland is funny, sorry.

― ogmor, Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:47 PM (56 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^ Im glad you think its funny, Ive never met one Amercia who thinks this way though, and ive been here my whole life.

should be "met one American"

I've sure met a lot of Americans who think of Ireland as their homeland & imo it is hilarious.

surely you posted here when Ian R-M was around, Bill

Ireland certainly. And I agree that's hilarious.

Not familar with Ian R-M

:-/

but yeah, saying that you're "half irish" (+ "half german" + "half something scandinavian") is pretty standard issue american white mongrel ethnic identification

okay never mind then (kind of don't want to stir up that again)

Don't forget the one-eighth Cherokee.

xpost

that mindset is very popular re: ireland/italy and "homeland"

I can walk down the hall here at work and lay my hands on ppl who take active pride, as in flags of their home countries hanging somewhere in their homes or workspaces, in the following heritages: Irish, Scottish, Cuban, Chinese, Italian, Polish, and Mexican.

And I have a water color of Big Ben in my cubicle. LOLSOB

Scotland is part of Britain

I have not pro/re-gressed to hanging anything Scottish anywhere in my home or workplace. I have, however, claimed that gifts of Hendrick's gin taste better if given by real Girvans.

This may or may not have been to cover my sheepishness at the hostess's real Christmas present not having arrived in the mail yet, so the gin had to do.

.. and I believe there are some Americans who have "imaginative affection" for Scotland as their true homeland, I meant

I think this also might have a lot to do with where you're from in the USA, too. For example, Chicago is a relatively new city, so the immigrant population is more recent and therefore more connected to their countries of origin. Plus, there are active ethnic enclaves throughout the city.

I'm from one of the original thirteen colonies and my family has been living there for generations and generations, so any connection to our country of origin is less a matter a culture and more a matter of genealogy/paying to get your genes analyzed.

I have not pro/re-gressed to hanging anything Scottish anywhere in my home or workplace

haha no but your main hobby is the dance equivalent of hanging Scottish flags in your cube!

Yeah, I wanted to point out that the relative prximity of immigrant ancestors greatly colors one's perception of another homeland as does the reception they got on coming here.

THAT WAS AN ACCIDENT!!

I just stumbled across it. Sometimes literally.

LOL it's okay! It is one of the many things that make you great.

nordic mythology is awesome, without a doubt. it is a shame that nazi idiots have been allowed to squat on them to the point where they are identified with them.

Seriously, when did this equivalence happen? I never noticed it growing up (lol MN).

Yeah, like I said up-thread, me neither. I thought Hitler seized on pretty much any weird mythology/spiritualism that suited his fancy + advanced his political & manipulative aims -- I guess I didn't realize another country's entire body of legend had been spoilt by his use.

I dunno, I guess I'm just hesitant because of the cultural weight attributed to, for example, Wagner's esteem for Norse mythology.

What is funny is how unappealing Wagner makes the Norse Gods. There is something very tawdry about the plot of the Rheingold, say.

Sometime right around the end of the 19c/beginning of the 20c I'm pretty sure. As I said above I don't think this equivalence was really in place when Wagner was composing the Ring.

Yes, but Germanic tribes worshipped their own version of the Norse gods? Didn't they?

Probably thought they were cool

Has anyone read that David Brin comic "The Life Eaters" were Hitler somehow manages to get the Norse Gods to show up and aid the Third Reich?

Yeah Wagner's Wotan is a total jerk, goes back on his bargains, def. not a code hero.

The only ones who come off as very likable are Siegmund and Sieglinde, sort of.

'Oh hi Giants! That construction contract we made for Valhalla? LOL i seem to have misplaced it, please go die.'

I am pretty certain that being interested in Norse mythology didn't make people think you were a Nazi in the late 19th century, considering that Nazis didn't actually exist at the time.

No, but aryan supremacists did, that's who I was referring to.

proto-nazis totally did, but i'm not sure anyone would get it if you called someone that xp

My memory is that being into Norse mythology in the 1980s didn't make people think you were a nazi either! the current cultural association seems a very recent thing to me. I wonder if the association exists as a result of fascist ppl linking themselves w/the formative mythology of various countries (cf uk fascists waving the george cross flag), I kind of have the feeling that this is the case to some extent. I don't know why people just let them take it like that, if so.

Isn't the word "Aryan" a thing from India like Zoroastrian-related somehow?? I could wiki that but I have to go to a meeting. So weird to me that it ended up being any kind of Western/white thing.

My memory is that being into Norse mythology in the 1980s didn't make people think you were a nazi either! the current cultural association seems a very recent thing to me.

^^^^ this is what I'm getting at; not "when did fascists start co-opting Norse mythology" but "when did Norse mythology become so deeply intertwined with fascism that the original post question would be a valid, recognizable concern"

omg that reminds me -- there were some super white (possibly blonde?) people from afghanistan who happened to wind up in one of my friend's esl classes (students) and when people asked where they were from, they would say "we are aryan"
this was earlier this year btw

my friend wondered whether or not to explain why that descriptor might be problematic; to the students, it was perfectly normal.

i don't remember what made me first associate the two things but i have spent some time in front of st0rmfr0nt and the obsession w/ it is obvious. maybe it's a neo-nazi metal/internet thing? is it that recent?

well, famously a lot of the scandinavian black metal guys rejected satanism for the norse stuff. and some of them were racist too.

Indians are Caucasians though?

partial xpost.

Aryan is some term they use for some lot who invaded India in the distant past, with these fellows speaking a "Indo-European", an ur-language linked to every European language (bar the funny ones). I think TEH NAZIS decided that the Aryans were somehow the ur-Germans.

That said, I think in India they were meant to have been a bit more pallid than the more indigenous types. but whatever.

I think that Iranians, many Afghans, and some other fellows are also descended from those Indo-European Aryan chaps.

right, which is what i've thought as long as i can remember. it's more of a three-part association btwn black metal/nazism/and norse mythology

xposts

i guess it's like embracing it is a quick way to reject all of judeo-christianity if that's what you want to do.

Man, the Nazis ruined so many things.

I blame Boyd Rice.

more Xpost action

HITLER was interested in all that Norse stuff, so maybe all those SHITEFRONT morons get into it through him.

but yeah, what is interesting is how it is only now that being interested in Norsey stuff makes you definitively a bit whiffy. As noted, it is fascinating that in the 1960s a Jewish New Yorker could think there was nothing odd about doing a comic based on a Norse God.

right, which is what i've thought as long as i can remember. it's more of a three-part association btwn black metal/nazism/and norse mythology

Don't forget the neofolk clowns too.

I blame Boiled Rice

btw i was just at the library to pick some stuff up and looked for the stephen oppenheimer book linked upthread. they didn't have it but i did get this so maybe i can tell u all about it later http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Politics-Nationalist-Movement-Mainstream/dp/0374109036

right yeah neofolk too!

Now I'm depressed.

pls. tell me abt that book harbl! once you read it, i mean.

will do

i thought the whole "aryan invasion"/aryans as proto-indo-europeans thing was pretty much academically discredited at this point.

Misread that initially as "proto-indie-europeans" and was like o no it's ILX clusterfuck hell

ILM rather

Whoa, this thread exploded. Read this book last year and I highly recommend it:

http://www.heatherpringle.com/books/master.html

All kinds of bizarre WTF moments inside.

hahaha! i wonder what would be a good t-shirt relating to proto-indie-europeans.

xpost about Aryan/Indie European invasion stuff...

Hi Maria, tbh it's not my academic area, but I think people do still talk about Indo-European languages as though the term means something, though teh Nazis tend to forget that Slavs, southern Europeans, and people from the Celtic fringe speak I-E languages too.

Indo-European does mean something, when it comes to language

southern Europeans

Nazis were sort of into the Romans a bit too though? I mean, the ancient ones, of course.

This is a clusterfuck.

" good t-shirt relating to proto-indie-europeans."

In front show guide for actual IPA pronunciation of !!!, then
draw arrow on the back pointing to butt with sign "Great BOWEL Shift"

sorry.

xpost - that's true, indo-european is a language family, what i mean though is the idea that they all came from one "people" who spoke "proto-indo-european" (which is more useful theoretically than historically). my impression is that finding the homeland of the proto-indo-europeans/aryans was kind of a big thing in archaeology/comparative linguistics/folklore studies for a while until people realized that cultural change is not necessarily the result of migration or diffusion or some other massive population change and it just got way too complicated.

er sorry, i mean "migration or invasion," not "migration or diffusion"

Yes. And way too complicated for the Nazis to bother about (xp)

BEHOLD THE PROTONG!

http://www.amazon.com/Behold-Protong-Stanislav-Szukalski/dp/0867195193

Hmm, I always thought Aryans were North Indian (and a bit paler) and darker Dravidians were from the South/Sri Lanka.

actual IPA pronunciation of !!!

Proto-Indie Europeans spoke Click?

!!!Kung people

They spoke Chick-chick-chick.

<southern Europeans>

Nazis were sort of into the Romans a bit too though? I mean, the ancient ones, of course.

oh yeah, I was thinking more of the SPERMFRONT people sometimes seem to have a bit of a thing about Mexicans. Or maybe I am imagining that.

ɛkskləˈmeɪʃən pɔɪnt ɛkskləˈmeɪʃən pɔɪnt ɛkskləˈmeɪʃən pɔɪnt

This has got to be one of the most female-dominated threads in ILX history that is not explicitly about women or women's issues or James Franco.

wimmin be comin' from the land of the ice and snow

we have other interests, it's true! i for one am pretty interested in nazis and stuff

and not james franco ; )

especially us bearded ladies

Norse legends and sagas are full of v v strong women iirc.

I don't even know who James Franco is.

Was he a Nazi or a Norse god?

he was a Nazi God

(from Norway)

Also a co-star of "Milk"

pls. tell me abt that book harbl! once you read it, i mean.

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:45 PM (1 week ago)

i'm about 30% done and it's pretty good. there is obviously way too much to say so he seems to be going too fast through a lot of it but the book is like 600 pages as it is.

TS: James Franco vs. Jess Franco vs. dictator Franco

icelandic sagas are full of very strong, sometimes even scary women for sure. i had a great conversation with an icelandic woman about our favorites, mine is hallgerd's from njal's saga (who has a grudge against her husband for years and waits until he needs her hair for a bowstring to fight off attackers and tells him, "i don't care if you die quickly our slowly") and hers is gudrun from the laxardal saga (who told her son, after her four husbands had all been killed, that "the one i loved the best was the one i treated the worst").

sorry for the typos! i am very excited about these stories obviously.

http://image2.onlineauction.com/auctions//39586/pzdv-1019975-1.jpg

lol @ peppermint schnapps EVER being primal

This is begging for a ZS-style Palin.gif.

"Authentic. German."

Is the symbol on this understood to be some kind of nazi or white supremacist symbol?

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/p720x720/189955632_10225968328701233_3687902963050939148_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-4&_nc_sid=3b2858&_nc_ohc=6vPo74gnlGIAX81lVVQ&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=8fa3405cb20d52c7ae524f0a5ce0e667&oe=6138ADB6

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

lol

what is that anyway, a banjo?

would excelsior that but it's a faff, wp evan

man alive, it can be.

Has anyone else noticed the shape of the CPAC stage is the Odal Rune/SS insignia? pic.twitter.com/TCns4B1tq8

— The Daily Beans Podcast (@dailybeanspod) February 26, 2021

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/othala-rune

btw, as the op of this thread, I never got deeply into Norse mythology beyond the one book I was reading at the time that I got 2/3 of the way through.

btw, as the op of this thread, I never got deeply into Norse mythology beyond the one book I was reading at the time that I got 2/3 of the way through.

The Will will never Triumph with that attitude.

it's some kind of washburn banjo-guitar. It's been for sale for a while on facebook marketplace, and it's come down a ton in price, and I keep eyeing it but I'd really rather not risk any mistaken impression. IDK how widely that symbol is recognized - the first time I had ever heard of it was actually the CPAC thing and I wasn't 100% sure it was the same symbol but it seems related at least.

The cutaways look either missing or damaged.. is it supposed to look like that?

And the Runic alphabet (futhark) is not inherently racist or anything.. still used in magical practice and soothsaying

nordick banjo-guitar should be called a lute-fisk

Nice!

lmao why did i write "nordick"

neitherpenis