Electric/electronic cigarettes - does this shit actually work?

desperate question from a pathetic addict.

my friend has pretty much quit using one! only when she's really really nervous in large crowds of people does she even crave real cigarettes.

true pathetic addiction is not having smoked for well over a decade but liking the sound of these.

Would you smoke it while listening to Neil Young's Trans?

I vaguely looked at these but fear they wouldn't be a proper substitute for the rich satisfying experience of sucking death down into my lungs tbh

I wanted to get these when I decided to quit but couldnt find them so I settled for these nictone "mints", which worked really well

introducing the eCigarette!

I quit smoking about 14 months ago with the aid of Swedish snus (I still do one or two micro-teabags of Gotland's a day), but I've tried a nephew's e-cigarette. Yes, they work wonderfully, nice quick nic bump, fairly accurate tobacco smoke flavored mist, and not terribly expensive.

In fact, the only problem with it is a orange led at the tip that lights when the actuator button is pressed. I really had no desire to be conspicuous when I was smoking.

jjustin have you tried "the easy way to quit smoking"? I smoked for over 20 years and it seriously relieved me of that burden in one week. no lie. I got friends for whom it did the same thing.

ball-and-chain free over two years now btw

n fact, the only problem with it is a orange led at the tip that lights when the actuator button is pressed.

how else are people going to know that you live in the future?

what the hell is an ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE

and does it play mp3s

In fact, the only problem with it is a orange led at the tip that lights when the actuator button is pressed. I really had no desire to be conspicuous when I was smoking.

This is weird! I remember reading so many books as a kid where people could not smoke bcz the cherry would have equalled them getting shot, people just standing around avoiding detection and craving a cigarette...why did modern technology not fix this?

Hey Abbott, reading Love in the Time of Cholera has led me to believe that you can smoke with the lit end in your mouth, precisely to avoid detection.

"I vaguely looked at these but fear they wouldn't be a proper substitute for the rich satisfying experience of sucking death down into my lungs tbh"

major lols

i don't smoke much tbh. well, it sort of "flows" in the sense that for weeks i'll probably have one or two per day and then i'll binge for a few weeks. binges being half a pack per day. :-(

They were selling something like this at a cart in the mall around Christmastime (they might still be, I'm not a regular mallgoer). The weird thing was that the kiosk attendents were allowed to use the product in the mall, since it was some sort of a vaporizer and not actually"smoking." I was pretty appalled, to be honest.

j0hn d, i would be interested in hearing about this "the easy way to quit smoking"

in the meantime, i am currently smoking in the future. not bad!

How do you know when to stop? If a cartridge holds between 10-15 cigarettes worth of nicotine, then couldn't you find yourself accidentally taking loads more than when you smoked normal cigarettes?

(Actually, I guess this is less of a problem for people who smoke rollies... I'm just so used to smoking until I get to the end of the cigarette I'd be worried I'd forget to stop if there was no clear delineation.)

American Lung Association tryna ban e-cigs:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2890542/american_lung_association_vs_electronic.html?singlepage=true&cat=5

Similar story to Swedish snus, which is banned elsewhere in the EU, despite the fact that the Swedes have the lowest lung cancer, emphysema, and one of the lowest coronary heart disease rates in the EU.

What the activists don't get is that some people are self-medicating with nicotine for anxiety, aversion to stimuli overload etc. They're not smoking because its "cool", but because it allows them to function in a world we didn't evolve for. Harm reduction strategies like snus or e-cigarettes are fantastic because they allow this minority to self-medicate with less than a tenth of the long term hazard of smoked tobacco.

mm

I tried one of these things a few weeks back when a friend who was over had one he'd imported (theyre not technically legal in Aus and cant be purchase here). I dunno, I found it less than satisfying. I've never liked vape inhaling anyway, and it felt weird and nothingy.

bought one in Paris last weekend. Better than expected although I've "quit" 3 montsh ago and since then have limited myself to social/drink smoking - for these occasions I don't think e-ciggies would do the trick.

also - these are being marketed (at least in France) as a way to smoke in public places (rather than for health issues). I am pretty sceptical that I would be allowed to smoke one of tehse, say, on a plane or in a movie theater. Anyone tried this?

have not had a real analog cigarette in a month thanks to these, which considering i smoked heavily for nearly 20 years is pretty awesome tbh

congrats! - I totally failed to follow up w/you in re "the easy way to quit smoking" but if you're cured then you're cured - if something goes wrong, google that title - it works, I am so grateful to a friend who pointed me at it - can't even believe I don't smoke any more, given how long I did it & how much I liked it.

That book really is amazing. I donated it to a juvenile prison, but I kind of wish I hadn't.

how much do these cost? tempted to try if they aren't too expensive ...

lately I've been pretty baffled by this Nicorette advert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-vlocHqCcA

I am not sure what the point is if not 'you know those moments when you could look really cool if you had a cigarette? How about instead, you look really dumb?'

so far one of the biggest reinforcers was the fact that the first 10 days were still really tough, which since i was still getting nicotine baffled me, and then when i did some research i realized that i was detoxing from all the other useless nasty addictive shit they pack in there to keep you coming back for more. fucking creeped me out so much that its hard to imagine opening that door up again ever.

at the initial outlay, theyre pretty expensive, but considering i was smoking at least a pack a day at $6-7 i figure that im already slightly ahead - and i picked one of the more expensive ones (greensmoke) due to online reviews and whatever.

huh - i was considering quitting about a year ago, then major life suckage happened, and i decided i didn't want to inflict the quitting smoking trauma on top of that.

can these be adapted for use with all my other favorite herbs?

ball-and-chain free over two years now btw

― Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:29 AM (4 months ago) Bookmark

Hell yes! Me too! I think I quit mid 2008. Cold turkey is the best way to go, if you can hack it.

I am puffing on one of these now, they are quite satisfying. I can't wait to try the flavored ones.

What's the deal here, is this stuff safe? The few I've tried were nice and I don't ever crave these days unless it's after dark and I've had a drink or two.

I like when people I'm with whip an e-cig out in a store or movie theater or wherever and just take a few puffs. Your anti-smoking laws are ineffective against these digital beauties!

digital electronic

mine leaks a bit and I'm not sure I'm incredibly happy about that.

i have one of these now and i love it. it subtracts everything i dislike about smoking (imminent death, smelliness, bad breath, waste) and adds vanilla.

a friend has one that's like a really elaborate shisha, very decadent and elegant. makes me want to take up smoking.

Em what kind do you have? I've been using the disposables for about a week now and I kind of love them!

just a regular blu one. i tried a friend's super fancy one and it made me want one. you just press the button and it releases the vapor into your mouth. you don't even have to inhale. crazy

Yeah, I've been getting the blue disposables. Maybe I will check that one out.

I like when people I'm with whip an e-cig out in a store or movie theater or wherever and just take a few puffs. Your anti-smoking laws are ineffective against these digital beauties!

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau) wrote this at 2013-08-07 17:50:17.000

Does it still make those places smell like a goddamn McDonalds or airport lounge from 1989?

these things subtract everything great about smoking - not giving a fuck, being terrible to yourself, embracing a continuity of cool from the glory days of americana - and leaves you just with the pathetic part, i.e. furtively sucking on an implement at various intervals throughout the day and night like someone with a rare incurable disease

electronic cigarettes remind me of those motorcycles you see these days with roofs on them

They've definitely taken root as a fashion accessory in certain quarters of British society. They are dreadful and look ridiculous, especially in clubs.

they should def make a kazoo noise

I can't understand the appeal to anyone who wasn't a smoker before. For anyone trying to give up the real thing however they're brilliant and I dgaf if they look ridiculous.

I stopped using mine - a cheapish one from the market (still, £25 I could have saved). It started leaking into my pocket and then I noticed some of the juice had condensed on the mouthpiece. When I opened it up it had even started leaking into the battery compartment. Rubbish. What's the best brand? I reckon if someone were smart enough to make an e-cig that was significantly better than the rest out there, they'd be a multi millionaire within weeks.

nothing looks as ridiculous as an actual cigarette that is going to kill you in 2013

im not saying you are going to die in 2013 but....you never know

darragh otm

"If alcohol is queen, then tobacco is her consort. It's a fond companion for all occasions, a loyal friend through fair weather and foul. People smoke to celebrate a happy moment, or to hide a bitter regret. Whether you're alone or with friends, it's a joy for all the senses. What lovelier sight is there than that double row of white cigarettes, lined up like soldiers on parade and wrapped in silver paper?... I love to touch the pack in my pocket, open it, savor the feel of the cigarette between my fingers, the paper on my lips, the taste of tobacco on my tongue. I love to watch the flame spurt up, love to watch it come closer and closer, filling me with its warmth.
Finally, dear readers, allow me to end these ramblings on tobacco and alcohol, delicious fathers of abiding friendships and fertile reveries, with some advice: Don't drink and don't smoke. It's bad for your health." - Luis Buñuel

electronic cigarettes look like toys and people that suck on them look like children

better than looking like a coach bag by age 40. just my .02

totally agree that they look daft, no way i'd ever smoke mine in public - i even turn away from my gf when i toke because i know it looks like some childish sci-fi nonsense. BUT after a crappy start (my e-cig barely gave out any vapor first dozen or so times i sucked on it, seems you have to break it in) i've cut down my smoking by about 80%. just smoke electronic cig at home and rollies when i'm out drinking, feel 10x better for it. you kinda have to suspend belief a bit at first because it's not the same - or as satisfying - as a real smoke, but it's not far off. plus saves all the brown fingers, phlegmy throat, hocking up gunk, stinking the room out etc. after a few months i totally prefer it, except when out in clubs/bars.

what's truly shameful is all the anti-e-cig shite flowing around at the moment, particularly when it comes from anti-smoking groups. hard to get my head around it - so their objection isn't the cancer and illness that smoking causes, it's just the act of sucking on a thing to get a sensation? loads of articles saying 10 THINGS TO BEWARE OF E-CIGS and they're all fuzzy nonsense like "kids might see you smoking it and think smoking is cool" and "scientists just don't know". personally i think they're one of the best things to happen to me as a smoker and whatever minor health impact they might have it's fuck all next to an actual cig.

my one doesn't have a glowing tip, it has a glowing button on the underneath that you press then suck the end of it. the whole branding of it is shite though, awful skater dude bro junk with a little devil symbol etched onto the thing itself (thankfully not that noticable). someone should really do a cary grant style e-cig, simple slim black cylinder, no lights or fancy shit. mine was £60 plus a bunch of the liquids, baffled to find i got two in there so i'm going to give one to a mate and tell him to buy a charger. cheap as hell really.

should be said that i was never a heavy smoker, slowly cut down over the years til i was smoking like 2 rollies per day during the week and 10 at weekends. might be different for serious smokers, but i still reckon you could go to half cigs, half e-cigs. bit like a move to sweetener, definitely different and worth the slight drop in sensation because of the health benefits, money saved, etc

i tried a friend's super fancy one and it made me want one. you just press the button and it releases the vapor into your mouth. you don't even have to inhale

what kind is this? i'm interested in checking out a load of different types.

love how you can get the different flavours too, like a mini-shisha thing. i am pretty evangelical about these things, really wish they'd hurry up with the indepth clinical trials so i know the full story behind them

What's truly evil is attempting to deny people addicted to a profoundly damaging substance the opportunity to transfer that addiction to a product most medical professionals rate as 99% harmless.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/05/e-cigarettes-tobacco-harmless-enjoyable

a friend has one that's like a really elaborate shisha, very decadent and elegant. makes me want to take up smoking.

also, what's this one?

i got the tornado thing from here: www totallywicked-eliquid co uk. really do hate that devil shit though so could anyone recommend somewhere better/classier? easy to find discount codes for that place though, check the twitter for like 15% off codes.

as for flavours, the tobacco one is decent if a bit 'dirty', cinnamon is kinda nasty and harsh, cherry is good and menthol is superb. keen to hear reviews on other flavours if anyone's tried them

I love e-cigs, in a weird way I prefer them to smoking the real thing - no stinkiness, no having to go outside in SHAME. I find it's more expensive, though, because I suck on this fucking Blu disposable thing way more than I ever smoked.

and yeah, I look like a douchebag because of it, but so do most people anyway because they dress so bad.

i thought the jury was still out on whether these are safe or not. i'm sure i read a WHO warning.

i mean, nicotine in itself is harmful & i'm sure if you are constantly sucking on an ecig it's not good for you, but i think it's a pretty safe bet to assume that ecigs are less unhealthy than real cigarettes

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/e-cigarette-safety/

electronic cigarettes look like toys and people that suck on them look like children

I thought the coolest thing about smoking was broadcasting an 'I don't give a f**k' attitude. So who cares what you think about e-cigs? Plenty of people think real cigarettes are disgusting and dumb-looking too.

they've been around for years now, surely that's enough time to do some conclusive studies about the impact on health? having said that, no notable cases have come up in all that time so we can assume at the v least they're not as bad as real cigs. worst i've read is that they have a minor effect on the lungs/breathing (much less than real cigs) but no effect on the heart, interestingly.

also read there's only three things in them: nicotine, water and some glycerine thing that turns it to vapour. as opposed to the dozens of nasty chemicals in cigarettes.

don't think nicotine is all that harmful in itself (or is it?). no conclusive reports on the glycerine stuff, few murmurings about it being same stuff that's found in anti-freeze but nothing concrete about it being EVIL

other anti-e-cig bumf about it being dreadful that people who would otherwise have not smoked, might start up on these. don't really see the big deal, no real difference in scale than someone eating a caffeine pill. seems to be a real puritan air about a lot of the anti stuff

again, the sciencebasedmedicine.org link above is all about 'insufficient evidence' rather than proof one way or other. common sense dictates it's massively less harmful, unless this glycerine stuff turns out to be the equiv of mainlining cancer. is the WHO warning out there?

one qu i do have is about these little vials of nicotine fluid you buy to put in them. harking back to the mid 90s and the jolly roger's cookbook and the recipe for nicotine poison, if someone drank one of these pots would that kill? seeing as nicotine is lethal in large amounts

I love e-cigs, in a weird way I prefer them to smoking the real thing - no stinkiness, no having to go outside in SHAME. I find it's more expensive, though, because I suck on this fucking Blu disposable thing way more than I ever smoked.

― homosexual II, Monday, September 9, 2013 12:17 PM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

See, I think I'm smoking mine less! I can just like take a couple puffs and put it down rather than feeling like I need to smoke a whole cig? Also, agree that I'd rather look dumb than like a coach bag lol. That said, I do feel a little weird doing it in public.

i kinda regret quitting in January before trying out these - I wonder if I could have quit the real ones and kept the e-cig for social settings where I still have cravings to this day

Been arguing with my brother about these, because he started them to give up smoking, but that was several years ago and obv these are safer than smoking, but less safe than not smoking at all. I used to buy him e-cig bits and pieces for Christmas/bday but I don't particularly want to keep funding it.
My brother says a lot of the anti e-cig stuff is from tobacco companies. He's the type that believes everything he reads on the internet but he could have a point. Part of the enjoyment for him is he can 'light up' anywhere and be unbearably smug to anyone who says 'you can't smoke here' etc.

http://www.who.int/tobacco/communications/statements/eletronic_cigarettes/en/

All these people saying they look uncool or w/e - are you fucking 12 or something?

smdh

They do look ridiculous. Then again I don't think real cigarettes look particularly cool, but that's partly due to formative experiences sitting next to old people puffing away on the bus. I accept I may be in the minority in this one.

You do see them being used as an accessory in certain kinds of provincial clubs and bars so it's perfectly valid to criticise them on those grounds. It's probably preferable to actual smoking.

Part of the enjoyment for him is he can 'light up' anywhere and be unbearably smug to anyone who says 'you can't smoke here' etc.

the worst people

They're banned on trains and I'd be very surprised if you were allowed to use them on the tube. Even fake smoke is an unnecessary/possibly dangerous distraction in environments like that.

I mean, you can still smell that stuff right?

I read just now that they don't, for the most part, so nevermind

anecdote late sat night on the top deck of a bus a girl produced and puffed on one of these and a couple of guys in the seat in front objected and she was drunk of course and said but it's safe and they sort of said well says who and her friend looked sort of embarrassed and then the first girl said something about them being gay and that being why they were objecting and the guys looked pretty bewildered and she said no it's okay I work with a lot of gays so I know what you're like and her friend looked at me and my girlfriend sort of apologetically and said it's okay isn't it and I said no

men who love men and object to public smoking

I saw a guy using one in his cube at work one time. Very bizarre looking.

e cigs are unacceptable and their growing mainstream acceptance is confusing as shit. i was a bartender when they started to get traction and "e-smokers" would invariably be middle-aged failed bohemians who wanted nothing more than for someone to ask them about their fucking glowing blue mini vape. like, the kind of people who still maintain photography livejournals and reminisce about seeing the feelies back in the day. don't be like that.

also the aesthetic design of those things is uniformly hideous. shit looks like something out of a cyberpunk 2020 sourcebook published in 1992. just smoke real cigarettes or quit. fuck.

i have to think these things are transitional, that in 20 years people who use them (or cigarettes) will be seen as people with ancient, kooky affectations, like people with pipes are now

except it will be a glowing blue pipe with a laser etching of a graffitti-style devil on the side

actually, fuck, i don't want an e-cig i want an E-PIPE

God imagine how preposterous an e-cigar would look.

other anti-e-cig bumf about it being dreadful that people who would otherwise have not smoked, might start up on these.

Yeah, i hear this alot but I think it's baloney. If you don't smoke then what would be the purpose of an e-cig?

shit looks like something out of a cyberpunk 2020 sourcebook published in 1992.

This is one of the BIG DRAWS. If they didn't have that electronic glowing bit at the end I don't think they'd be nearly as popular.

like, the kind of people who still maintain photography livejournals and reminisce about seeing the feelies back in the day. don't be like that.

i'm not like that

not yet

me, mandee and enbb becoming old steampunk dudes

ugh sorry i did not mean to use name. mod change that plz

obv these are safer than smoking, but less safe than not smoking at all

this is the key question - by what degree are they less bad than cigs/worse than not using them. if it's as bad as riding a bike in heavy traffic and inhaling traffic fumes then i can deal with that. prob got my kool-aid glasses on but using these just doesn't feel bad at all - not like how a cig does with all the grime and fire and loss of breath. i can use one for 10 minutes then go on a big bike ride without feeling rough, obv can't do that with cigs.

there really needs to be a detailed in-depth study of these (and shisha) so people know exactly what's what - it's all conjecture at the moment. even that WHO link is all "not been scientifically demonstrated" and "remain undetermined". bottom line is *no one knows* but i'm betting my lungs they're a vastly superior alternative to smoking tobacco. seems strange that these studies haven't been done yet, considering the energy that has gone into linking smoking with colour photos of cancerous tongues etc over the past decade.

main problem is they look kinda dumb - the ones that actually look like cigs are the worst imo, like a daft fisher price toy for people who just can't let go. you're smoking a simulation, simulated stuff looks different, get used to it. oh and those people who 'light up' anywhere and be unbearably smug to anyone who says 'you can't smoke here' are just the worst, tell your bro not to do that.

i suspect the worst aspect health-wise is that it continues the habit of sucking on a tube to receive nicotine, which common sense suggests would increase the likelihood of going back to cigarettes at some point.

surely that's a worry only if e-cigs are banned or cease to exist?

a good comparison would be switching from sugar to sweetener, like you know one's better than the other but if you squint then you can get away with it. i appreciate some people can't think like this but if you can then why go back to the harmful shit, other than for an occasional treat.

similarly, there's endless chatter about sweetener causing cancer/illness, has been for years and undoubtedly will be for many more, but no hard fast proof. can see same happening with these.

the link LG posted has some of the 'dangers'
It hasn't been demonstrated either way, because who's going to pay for that study? "Remain undetermined" isn't some 'well, the jury's out' - it's saying the data is not there. "however, the chemicals used in electronic cigarettes have not been fully disclosed, and there are no adequate data on their emissions."

XP depends on whether something is classed as a food product or tobacco product iirc, different standards.

if someone drank one of these e-cig nicotine vials would that kill?

to answer my own question, YEP:

if a child of 30 Kilos of weight swallows the contents of a nicotine cartridge of 24 mg this could cause acute nicotine poisoning that most likely would cause its death (from that WHO link)

instant vials of poison!

watch out for ricin cigarettes while you're at it...

xp well yeah, the data is not there. it doesn't exist. someone saying DANGER is the same as me saying V LITTLE DANGER. and i thought the chemicals in the recent lot of e-cigs were well-known? nicotine, propylene glycol, water, flavourings. i know it was different in 2006 when they first came out but they're meant to have been cleaned-up now.

i just don't know why, if you're going to quit cigs, you wouldn't want to be free of the entire ball n chain? It's not just the health aspects that are insidious it's the dependency thing as well. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm glad people are off cigs but personally, the cravings, and being in situations when i couldn't satisfy them, were equally bad. I didn't smoke in front of my parents OR my kids so I would literally find myself being impatient for them to go to bed, or just go away, so that i could suck nicotine into my lungs. which is just pathetic. what's interesting is that, if i think about it, i wouldn't smoke e-cigs in front of them either. even if i were sure there were zero health risk attached to it. because i would be embarrassed by my dependency.

It hasn't been demonstrated either way, because who's going to pay for that study?

the govt? considering all the health warnings about tobacco this is a potential fix for all that. i have like zero clue about how all that kind of thing works, mind. e-cig companies are under pressure from all quarters too, banned in a couple of european countries, so a study would potentially help that - or potentially not. either way, it's frustrating how it's all such a grey area right now.

xp Just depends how arsed you are about finding out exactly what the effects are of what you smoke - wouldn't leave it to the people making a buck off it to make sure it's all lovely and fine. I'm far happier with my brother smoking these than tarry cancer sticks, but basically without industry regulation anyone can put anything in em at the moment afaict.
Ah, just found out they're to be licensed and regulated in the UK as of 2016: http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06June/Pages/e-cigarettes-and-vaping.aspx

if you're going to quit cigs, you wouldn't want to be free of the entire ball n chain?

i see what you mean but i don't think like that. i don't actually want to quit, i kinda need it to punctuate my day, relax after big stressful situations, plus i always need to be doing something with my hands and smoking is preferable to eating/boozing, chewing fingernails. same as drinking a cup of tea, caffeine has mild impact on health, can't do that whenever i want, dependent on it, etc. if i can get that nicotine rush without much of the danger and have it taste like cherry at the same time then i'm all for it.

xp ah now that's interesting.

"they will face stringent checks by medicine regulator the MHRA"

so if they fail these they get banned in the UK?

I think I tried to look into this on behalf of my brother before but got overwhelmed by the disgusting savagery of vaping forum posters & conspiracy theorists

i don't actually want to quit, i kinda need it to punctuate my day, relax after big stressful situations,

OK i'm just saying, i thought these exact same things and it turns out they were only true insofar as i believed them to be true. they were complete fictions.

off on a tangent here, but if anyone's tried the disposable ones and been disappointed do try different ones. i tried a friend's cig-looking disposable one last night and the 'hit' was barely noticeable, like sucking on air. the refillable ones take a few days to break in but once they do they deliver a proper smokey blast to the back of the throat, which goes some way toward helping them serve as a replacement.

OK i'm just saying, i thought these exact same things and it turns out they were only true insofar as i believed them to be true. they were complete fictions.

ah come on, you're telling me im lying to myself? i *know* i enjoy that cigarette walking out of work after an intense shift, there's no foolery going on. that sounds suspiciously like some NLP bumf from a 'how to quit' book and i want no part of it!

but yeah i'm not interested in quitting, if i hadn't found e-cigs i'd have carried on smoking the same as i do - not a huge amount, 2 rollies a day - but discovering these and the attendant £££ savings and health boost and better taste is a nice little bonus.

the propylene glycol does irritate my throat slightly

I am puffing on my steampunk e-cig here in my cubicle, iT HAS A GEAR ON IT NATURALLY

roxy I don't mind if anyone uses my real name

no no, i think you really DO enjoy them. i really DID enjoy cigarettes, even though they were sapping my strength and slowly killing me!

the disgusting savagery of vaping forum posters & conspiracy theorists

yeah the whole 'vaper' thing is some dismal shit. that gimpy mindset where they take this potentially useful thing and bend it into some smug posture that alienates the avg punter, really makes me shudder. have a lol at some of the pictures here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324697/Meet-vapers-E-cigarette-craze-inspires-bizarre-new-sub-culture.html (apols for DM link)

i think 'gothic vash' is my fave/most-loathed

xp, yeah it's the risk/reward thing and i'm at peace with that (hence only smoking at a low-level). kinda why i'm gung ho about e-cigs - they've just (hopefully) slashed that risk element by shedloads

Oh ok, I thought you were trying to keep it off the board for some reason xxp

naw I don't mind! no worries.

Apparently hash oil can be put in these for an easy inconspicuous high and it works.

me, mandee and enbb becoming old steampunk dudes

― 1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:35 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dying.

Man there are some real assholes with weird opinions on this thread.

Totally smoked in the work bathroom before and IT WAS AWESOME.

http://onstartups.com/Portals/150/images/charlie-sheen-winning-resized-600.jpg

in the 90's didn't people with mobile phones look kinda douchey?

this is the future folks, get used to my fuckin' nico-steam in your face

i'm all for e-cigs but i really don't think people should "smoke" them in indoor non-smoking areas. there's no a reason to accept at face value manufacturers' claims about the secondhand vapor being harmless. sorry to my nicotine fam.

totally smoked in class today and no one knew

illicit!!!!

sorry, "vaped"

i'm all for e-cigs but i really don't think people should "smoke" them in indoor non-smoking areas. there's no a reason to accept at face value manufacturers' claims about the secondhand vapor being harmless. sorry to my nicotine fam.

― fresh (crüt), Tuesday, September 10, 2013 3:16 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

but wait what even firsthand vapor is supposed to basically be harmless ?

I am vapin' in my cubicle. It really annoys people, which delights me even more!

a friend has one that's like a really elaborate shisha, very decadent and elegant. makes me want to take up smoking.

also, what's this one?

― NI, Monday, September 9, 2013 3:56 PM (Yesterday)

i think it's one of these - http://www.shishaa.co.uk/shisha-luxor/shishaa-luxor-electronic-shisha.htm

but wait what even firsthand vapor is supposed to basically be harmless ?

if it has nicotine in it then it's not harmless!!!

crut, I am pretty sure in one of those links above it says when it's exhaled like 99.999999% of the nicotine is gone

firsthand vapor

my understanding was that nicotine is the least harmful part of a cigarette

(although yes you should not drink it)

i'm probably just biased because i didn't grow up in the tobacco-smog dystopia that y'all did

i think it's one of these - http://www.shishaa.co.uk/shisha-luxor/shishaa-luxor-electronic-shisha.htm

that does look pretty good. bit rich of the company to describe it as 'electronic shisha' though

I use these:

http://www.totallywicked-eliquid.co.uk/images/pictures/site-photography/titan-tank/black-titan-tank-together_ecigs-(page-picture-large).jpg

Which look pretty great except the stupid devil branding, but that's thankfully tiny on the actual thing. I don't use them to quit, though, I use them as replacements for when I'm in the house so I don't kill the kitty. I still smoke real cigarettes when I'm out.

Crüt, I think you can be pretty certain that there's no second-hand vapour risk, and minimal first-hand vapour risk. Most of the people who object to them being used in no-smoking areas have no justifiable reason other than 'oh, they're called e-cigarettes so it must be like smoking'. It isn't, really. On the other hand, it's always worth doing full testing for any new product, I don't think that's unreasonable.

I kind of hate that people smoke the Blade Runner future cigarettes anywhere & everywhere. I could NOT use them, they still give me smokers cough (proto copd shit), and seeing them makes me angry and jealous. Normal feelings but to have them in a grocery store, at a pub quiz (inside), at the movies, etc, just sucks. For me. For everyone else, what a glorious golden Wild West of wanton nicotine consumption.

All very selfish but what is more selfish, I know, let me put the sword in my side first.

Most of the people who object to them being used in no-smoking areas have no justifiable reason other than 'oh, they're called e-cigarettes so it must be like smoking'.

yeah this is true. they're just a special kind of inhalers really. i'm mostly just annoyed at the guy who insisted i leave the windows rolled up while he smoked his ecig in my car. lol

someone lit up one of these in a movie theater and folks yelled at him

Even the anti e-cig things I have seen don't try to claim that there is danger to other people, just that the liquid might contain stuff that isn't listed and is bad for the inhaler. So really there isn't actually *any* reason for them not to use them wherever they like. The reason why cigarettes were banned in public is because of potential harm to other people. What possible reason could you give to ban them if they're proven to not be harmful? They're barely even noticeable. I'll accept their prohibition in public if you also ban children, talking, laughing, eating, moving and breathing too - all of these things have at some point annoyed the shit out of me.

That second sentence has some muddled construction, sorry.

someone lit up one of these in a movie theater and folks yelled at him

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:04 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

i'm mostly just annoyed at the guy who insisted i leave the windows rolled up while he smoked his ecig in my car. lol

That is annoying, but mainly because it's your car and you get to choose what to do with your windows, not some guy who's already getting a favour from you in the form of transportation.

yeah they should be banned from cinemas, but i also think sweet wrappers and people who take mountains of noisy food and any other distracting shit in there should be banned too.

something a bit grotty about blowing this smoke/vapour on people in public or crowded/confined spaces, not because of health issues but because it's bad manners, it's not far off someone repeatedly belching on the back of your head. us smokers have gone nearly a decade without smoking inside, not all that difficult to do same with electronic cigs, and it'll save a load of mither. this is a non-issue to me, distracts from wider point of Less Cancer (allegedly)

Someone else wants to smoke in public, I am free as a person addicted to that same thing to occasionally find it MADDENING TO WATCH. Especially considering 4-5 years ago it was very much easier to avoid seeing. Maybe it's just because I am in libertarian paradise the literal Wild West of Arizona, too, but people are fucking in your face about it, and I find that annoying, too; and I just go around being nice to everyone and keeping it inside and occasionally bursting into public tears about it.

And now: annoying others on an internet message board.
I mean the whole aesthetic of it is gross; there are a ton of "ecigarette bars" with dumb fucking name like Freedom Smoke USA. Part of it is just being annoyed with Arizona but it's like one other cartoony FREEDOM that people are really SIGNIFYING HEAVILY. And I am also ADDICTED TO IT and annoyed; it's like if heroin somehow became chic and legal in this new way; everyone who could not do heroin for health reasons would find all the American-flag shaped spoons that shot sparks and had ruby skulls all over them maybe a little gauche and triggery.

Also that everyone treats them like some perfect health thing then why can't I have one ;_; *anacdeta anecdata to the tune of "Rock me Amadeus"*

repeatedly belching on the back of your head

wait, you mean this is frowned upon?

(crestfallen)

well it's certainly not illegal

legit defence that actually: "look pal, it's about as illegal as farting in your face" *move to stand up*

ITT we are comparing vanilla scented vapor to farting in someone's face

vapor that has swirled around your mouth, throat, lungs and basically been deep inside your body before being pushed out and onto someone else's skin. it's not exactly the sweetest perfume

kind of like your regular breath? lol

ok that sounds like i was saying your particular breath stinks. i just meant, all breath has swirled around in your lungs fwiw, that doesn't make it gross

when i breathe i don't generally noisily suck in real deep then blow out real hard and noticeable

plus noticeable smell & colour, not to mention doom-ridden risk of unknown chemicals that i prefer to ignore

my particular breath smells of onion & garlic bagel so you're right :(

keep on justifying your obnoxious habits you drug addicts *slurps coffee, breathes deep the rich aroma as it wafts around the office*

when i breathe i don't generally noisily suck in real deep then blow out real hard and noticeable

― NI, Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:21 AM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't even do this when im smoking an actual cigarette

honestly though polo sport should be banned on college campuses

roxy strongly otm

pls teach me yr ninja smoking technique

cause you have to be a ninja to avoid "noisily inhaling" on a cigarette

what even is that

are we really debating whether blowing second-hand smoke/vapor out is the same as *breathing*? lol

what is second-hand 'vapor'

cos i know it's not hte same as smoke, or you'd have said

so, vs breath, what is it?

Think whole point is you can see e-cig or cig smoke whereas you can't see breath, so, even though e-cig smoke prob not much worse than normal breath, still more visible and intrusive.

it's sweet perfume darraghmac, sweet perfume that everyone should relish and love

o cool

We have 2 people in our office who use e-cigs at their desk. You can *barely* smell it if you are right next to them. It's really not intrusive at all.

it's a kind of exhaled smokey chalky gas that while might have a vague hint of vanilla or whatever but mostly smells 'dirty'. i don't know any non-smokers who think it's a nice smell or anything.

I know someone who likes to accidentally blow e-cig smoke into people's faces indoors and it's definitely possible to do this in a really awful way

But perhaps you have to know someone who does this it's pretty hard to describe

CP, what kind are they? the disposable ones barely give anything out at all but a 'tank' one gives out a thick plume of 'stuff' with a v obvious aroma (that's the type i'm talking about here btw)

TBH I dunno, I don't know what the different brands are cos I don't use them, but one looks like a cigarette with a blue light at the end and the other is some kind of weird pipe thing which doesn't have a light. That one I think is maple syrup flavour but all I can smell is a faint sweet smell.

NO! NOT A FAINT SWEET SMELL! KILL EVERYONE!

it's a weird one because unlike cig smoke the smell doesn't linger about, completely dissipates in about 4 seconds. but yeah if someone blew this in your face or near your person and you didn't know the whole ins and outs of e-cig land then you'd quite rightly get hacked off by it. plus qu remains of unknown chemicals being blown up your lungs - i don't buy into this but it's only to expect that some people might

i think there's different degrees to this though, the one i use gives out a big thick amount of vapor/smoke while i've seen others that produce next to nothing.

are we really debating whether blowing second-hand smoke/vapor out is the same as *breathing*? lol

― NI, Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:17 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

whether vapor and smoke are equally annoying iirc

ive never used a "tank" one and dont even know what it is really

mine gives out, like, a nearly indiscernible lil puff of non smelling vapor that disappears in a second

xp why would someone blow anything in anyone's face? i dont know why we're discussing that like it's something non psychopaths do

if someone blew anything in my face i'd be hacked off tbf

xp look i'll just leave this to roxy, the concerns here seem really...strange tbh

are we really debating whether blowing second-hand smoke/vapor out is the same as *breathing*? lol

― NI, Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:17 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i mean, you complained that vapor has been "swirled around in the lungs" as an argument for why its disgusting. lol, its not hard to see how the comparison came about

i'm not sure what you're getting at here roxy, are you saying people who don't like smelling second-hand vapor smoke are in the wrong?

i am saying that people not liking the smell of something is not a good reason for it to be banned

absolutely yeah. smell & 2nd-hand damage are like a 100th as bad as actual cig. but you can understand some people would get narked about it, esp if they don't really know the new-improved chemical details of e-smoke, vapor etc. it's just good etiquette to keep it low-key in public, less reasons for people to get arsey about it the better. something uneasy about this big push on being able to smoke in the office, clubs, trains, planes etc - we've gone this far without smoking there so why bother? it just serves to annoy and upset people and make it slightly more likely for e-cigs to be banned outright.

It serves to annoy and upset people for completely irrational reasons, though. If we banned everything on the IA thread then the world would be a very strange place.

i wouldn't say 'completely' irrational. i know plenty of club/bar managers who loathe these things because they have to keep running across the room to check that plume of smoke isn't 'real', to be met with a smirking drunk, showing off to their mates how they BEAT THE SYSTEM. loads of minor examples like this, more serious when it comes to planes, trains, etc.

just seems like a needless battle - do you *really* have to smoke on that packed bus?

Or ever?

Do you really have to eat that smelly food? Do you really have to drink that coffee? Or that beer for that matter? Do you have to drive that 30 minute walk? Do you have to buy unsustainable produce? Do you have to use that electricity? Do you have to wash every day? Do you have to still be alive and talking to me? Why can't you just fuck off out of my space and die?

a fair point, well made

someone needs a cigarette

people getting v annoyed at people getting v annoyed is v annoying

you know PLENTY of bar managers who have to investigate this? I go to clubs every week, people are puffing away, and it's pretty obvious it's not a real cigarette.

ha yeah, 'PLENTY' believe it or not. i work in various bars/clubs and it's a common beef from managers and bouncers in venues. i ain't lyin to ya brah. might seem diff from a punters-eye view, mind

please, never call me brah. I am a woman.

i am not a bra, i WEAR a bra

think about it - you have to check every waft of smoke *just in case* and that often means squeezing through a packed room of people to check close enough to see.

was ribbing your incredulity with the 'ain't lyin brah', no offence intended.

someone photoshop an ecig in this punters mouth

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ksxjg7CFQxA/TL2732xVxPI/AAAAAAAAKJA/YtFLgC57_xY/s1600/pic.jpg

we've gone this far without smoking there so why bother?

Aside from the fact that the smoking ban is still pretty new so 'this far' is actually not very far, nobody is even asking to be allowed to smoke there. Because it's not smoking. It's not a case of un-banning something that was previously banned. It's a case of coming up with a reason to start a ban. Currently there is no ban on e-cigs, because they are not fucking cigarettes, you unmitigated buffoons.

I've never seen anyone check on anyone's e-cigs in a bar, so I just don't really believe you, sorry. I can believe its a minor nuisance, but hey that's part of owning a bar/club - people fight, act obnoxious, throw up on the dance floor.

same

haha fair enough

9-11

somebody today sitting in front of me in class toked on an ecig on the low

i smoke an e-cig at work -- right under Bloomberg's nose yet! -- and no-one has said shit about it, much less tried to stop me from doing so. if anything, my co-workers are supportive of me giving up the real thing for the e-cigs.

also, i've been smoking e-cigs for almost six months now and either i have a really bad sense of smell (lol from all the years of smoking regular cigs) or they really don't smell.

the only ones ive ever smelled have like a barely detectable vanilla smell

Point of order too, NI - theyre not "new unknown chemicals" its glycerine, thats all. And well, nicotiene if you get that kind. I suppose the perfumey stuff if present might be something odd but hell, actual perfume is way more offensive.

And you noted yourself the smell dissappates after 4sec so its hardly going to make the nearby nonsmoker get covered in stench.

Sale of the nic liquid isnt legal in Aus, but it is (currently) legal to import it, which is something. Contemplating moving to these myself, if only because $20 a pack a day v $8 a tube a forgtnight - well theres no argument at all on that front is there.

100% support nic replacement therapies. yes, nicotine's very addictive, but it's highly unlikely that by itself it will give you cancer. that's the tars and resins. (you could get nic poisoning though, but you'd have to ingest/ absorb a lot more than what's available in commercial products)

E-cigs definitely do not smell.

wait are you saying that people who complain vociferously about the smell of ecigs are....wrong?

I'm just saying....that's like...their opinion, man

im jk, i was paraphrasing someone upthread

I am vapin' in my cubicle. It really annoys people, which delights me even more!

this someone? jk lol

i smoke an e-cig at work -- right under Bloomberg's nose yet! -- and no-one has said shit about it, much less tried to stop me from doing so. if anything, my co-workers are supportive of me giving up the real thing for the e-cigs.

that's great. i think in time, after a bunch of positive studies more people will come round to it and not get bothered by it.

Point of order too, NI - theyre not "new unknown chemicals" its glycerine, thats all.

yeah, i said this somewhere but someone pointed out that the e-cig companies might be being dishonest about the chemicals. i don't really buy that but hey. some early studies said they had trace metals in them but i think this is the kind of stuff found in normal air, nothing to get too worried about. same with the doom-mongers who say "it has ANTI-FREEZE in it!" kinda true but it's the type of anti-freeze from dry ice, not from fridges or cars.

that says nothing about smell. xp

Gavin Rossdale tried to warn you about the horrors of glycerine but you wouldn't listen.

these come in handy when you want to 'smoke' and it's pouring rain out and you're in your car.

oh wow, yeah! no clambaking, I guess

I mean, that's with weed obvs, but you know what I mean.

Man either I don't go out much anymore (ok this is very true I don't) or maybe it's different here than in other parts of the country but I've literally never seen anyone smoking on in a public place. In fact I did so a little on the street last night and felt like a total knob because I've never seen it! lol.

Im guilty of still smoking in my house, like a scumbag. This would be a massive boon for me (esp cos I rent).

FFS you're not allowed to smoke anywhere else, you're not being a "scumbag" for smoking in YOUR OWN SPACE.

I want to punch everyone right now.

take a chill pill

Pretty sure they're banned now, too.

move to a cabin in the woods

and take a chill pill

Maybe punch everyone with an electric fist that doesn't do any damage and just looks really stupid.

FFS you're not allowed to smoke anywhere else, you're not being a "scumbag" for smoking in YOUR OWN SPACE.

depending on landlord's requests obv

tho scumbag is harsh tbf trayce

i'm thinking "scoundrel"

Rapscallion.

yeah def no worse than scamp

smokin' trickster.

my landlord can suck his own shit and die so I dont much care abt my smoking in here tbqh

bad for your health though no

smelly and expensive too

I do wonder sometimes if my smoking annoys ppl around me...how many houses away can they smell it, just a little? Does it go in their windows? What about the ppl upstairs if I smoke on my fire escape? Do I have any ground to stand on if they object? It seems like with smoking the default "right" position is 0% tolerance of any inconvenience to others. What about the noise we all tolerate? Or the dogs, or the unsightly yards and garbage, or just every single other thing about living near a lot of people? Harrumph.

NB No one has ever said one single thing to me about it in my 2+ years here, I just worry.

Your upstairs neighbors don't care at all

i can smell next door a little but tbh you'd have to be a real asshole to make any nuisance of the fact

That's nice! Just FYI, I dunno, I try to hold it far enough out that the smoke ends up in the breeze and not straight into your window.

xp

Never noticed anything tbh, and if I did I still wouldn't really care. I mean just don't light anything on fire I guess.

can anyone recommend some good (uk based) places to get the liquid from? heard about cheap tainted stuff floating about so want to avoid that. paying ~£5 a 10ml tub from 'totally wicked', but the range of flavours isn't that good. trying out strawberry and vanilla this time but want a variety pack of weird ones.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24439474

They argue that e-cigarettes undermine years of anti-smoking efforts and could be especially damaging to children and non-smokers.

This is just such bullshit, and has nothing to do with what they actually are or any potential harm coming from them, except for 'maybe if non-smokers realise these are harmless they'll use them and then possibly at some point in the future they'll decide to move to the more expensive and ridiculously restricted version, i.e. real cigarettes. And then obviously they'll DIE HORRIBLY'. That's no way to make legislation, you idiots.

"Tobacco products should look and taste like tobacco products," said EU Health Commissioner Tonio Borg, presenting the proposals.

I'm hoping this is simply bad editing on the part of the BBC, because if this refers to e-cigs... uh, they're not tobacco products?

that's probably about banning menthols ect

Yeah, that's what I figured, it just follows on from several paragraphs about e-cigarettes, which makes it look really stupid. Honestly I think fears about cigarettes looking like sweets enticing the kiddies into using them are pretty fucking stupid too, and made by people who a) haven't seen cigarettes for a long time, b) haven't seen sweets for a long time, and c) haven't been or spoken to any children for a very long time.

Not going to be regulated as medicines. Which is right, I think. Though as I've said before, I'm certainly not against running trials and checking safety. Nobody so far has been able to come up with a convincing reason for them being harmful, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't check.

NS announced the news and tweeted this article, not sure if it was on here already?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24166-ecigarettes-help-you-quit-as-well-as-nicotine-patches.html#.UlPxqFOwVnn?utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=SOC&utm_campaign=twitter&cmpid=SOC%7CNSNS%7C2012-GLOBAL-twitter

They backed a ban on cigarette flavourings - but with a five-year delay in the case of menthol.

any word on when this ban will kick in? such frustrating bullshit - i'll have to buy a bulk lot of flavours, or buy from dodgy non-european sites. fwiw these things have helped me quit 'real' smoking entirely over the past month, without even wanting to.

bizarre because it's such a different thing to smoking - no fire, no tobacco etc - that for some governing body to say 'ah yes the only flavour to be added to this should be a dirty scrubby one'. like if the govt suddenly clamped down on coffee and said all flavours should be banned except one that tastes like mud.

I still assume that everyone smoking those little vaporizors in public is really smoking weed

definitely need trials and intensive checks on them, mind. but as someone said above, who would fund the unbiased studies?

more i think about this the more ridiculous and anti-progress it is. (sticking with my previous analogy) the logic is little more than 'best ban coffee because it'll encourage kids to drink baileys all the time'

wtf are these electronic cigarettes? I'm seeing them everywhere now, but what are they, how do they work? Are they a straight cigarette replacement? Do they still have nicotine in them?

They have nicotine in 'em, yes. It's liquid nicotine with some kind of glycerine. There's a heating element that vaporises the liquid, and you inhale the vapour like you would smoke.

If you've ever smoked tobacco from a water pipe, the taste and sensation is kinda similar in electric gigs. (Though I assume the chemical composition of the stuff used in electric cigarettes is different than the in the stuff you can buy for water pipes?)

Posted this upthread, this is the one I use at home:

http://www.totallywicked-eliquid.co.uk/images/pictures/site-photography/titan-tank/black-titan-tank-together_ecigs-(page-picture-large).jpg

So, you can see there are three segments, right? The first long segment is the battery, and the bit at the end lights up when you drag/flashes when the battery runs out. The second segment is the 'atomiser', which provides the heat, and holds the third segment, which is the 'tank' which holds the liquid, and you inhale through.

I have to say, that even though I think the EU regulations are kinda bullshit, trying electronic cigarettes has made me want to start smoking again, years after I've stopped smoking regular cigarettes. It seems like electronic ones have all the plus sides of smoking, while lacking most of the bad sides (irritated throat and lungs, the smell cigs clinging to your clothes and walls, etc), though I guess it'd still be stupid to get addicted to nicotine again.

I would wager that you're on the side of the minority (those who start smoking because of e-cigs versus those who stop), and what research there is seems to agree with me. I on the other hand am an annoying person who wants to have my e-cigs and my real ones too. At the same time. Maybe five. Stick a couple in my ears too just to be on the safe side.

maybe someone said this already but my inner caveman says that it is sad that there's no fiery ritual involved before you smoke each time. no more scrounging lights off strangers either.

trying electronic cigarettes has made me want to start smoking again, years after I've stopped smoking regular cigarettes

that's interesting, you're the first person i know who's said anything like that. but yeah, that's clearly not good but has to be said, that response is v much in the minority & shouldn't be used as a reason to crush the whole e-cig thing.

all the plus sides of smoking, while lacking most of the bad sides (irritated throat and lungs, the smell cigs clinging to your clothes and walls, etc)

bob on. i now see cigs as this dirty phlegmy thing, why would i go near that when i can have clean crisp minty 'vapour'? wouldn't fret too much about getting addicted to nicotine again, it's a relatively harmless pleasure when you take away all the tar and orrible chemicals, not hugely dissimilar from caffeine. which is why this whole hand-wringing 'think of the children' crap bugs me so much. it'd be interesting to see the conversion rates from e-cig to tobacco, mind.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say my case is a common one, and I know people who've managed to stop smoking regular cigarettes because of e-cigs, so I'm definitely not against them.

had to lol at this http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Worker-told-leave-Festival-Park-shop-taking-drag/story-19900700-detail/story.html#axzz2h9aO8OAM

at first i thought she was a customer and thought hmm bit harsh but fair enough i guess, their rules. but then i saw she was STAFF. on what planet is that gona be ok at all

whipping out a hip flask and taking a big swig while serving a customer but then kicking off at being bollocked because it only had vimto in it

http://f.cl.ly/items/0e3J221O083g0g332p1b/IMG_1639.jpg

sure, no way is this encouraging people to smoke cigarettes

i don't actually want to quit, i kinda need it to punctuate my day, relax after big stressful situations,

OK i'm just saying, i thought these exact same things and it turns out they were only true insofar as i believed them to be true. they were complete fictions.

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, September 10, 2013 9:36 AM (2 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a really good post, kind of sums of my newfound optimism w/r/t using my mind to improve mood.

The shop down the road from me has now started selling electric spliffs, which strikes me as both a predictable and preposterous development. What do they actually do? The stand that contains them actually has the word 'CANNABIS' written across it, which can't be legal especially for something that obviously has no active ingredient to it.

lol. maybe it's like non-alcoholic beer?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-smoking-ecigarette-must-be-futuristic-bounty-h,34531/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Default:Week1:Default

bought this recently and i know it looks dumb as hell but i absolutely love it:
http://www.totallywicked.pk/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/epipe_single-page-picture-large.jpg
feels real heavy and well-made. only using herbal nicotine-free fluid in it, keeping it as a calming tool rather than a 'buzz' tool.

BUT my other regular e-cig, silver tornado, has started tasting disgusting, like a whole bunch of flavours mushed into one - my own fault as i've been trying tons of different flavours in it. wasn't aware that this would happen though so im going to buy a new one. any recommendations for the best one? girlfriend has a great one from dubai, no button to switch on the heating coil, you just suck on it, has a crappy multicoloured prism light on the end and a see through container at the top for the fluid. it smokes differently to my current e-cig, doesn't have such a harsh kick at the back of the throuat, more of a pleasant mellower sensation. damned if i can find the name of it to buy one in the uk though

BUT my other regular e-cig, silver tornado, has started tasting disgusting, like a whole bunch of flavours mushed into one - my own fault as i've been trying tons of different flavours in it. wasn't aware that this would happen though so im going to buy a new one

this happened to me with my nespresso machine, i think all the capsules were actually the same just with different colors, like M&Ms

nespresso machine

I thought this was a reference to some kind of nicotine-espresso hybrid

not surprisingly, Bloomberg banned indoor e-cigarette smoking on his way outta office. reason 1,235,478,729 to utterly despise this sanctimonious fuckface.

the slowly growing crackdown on e-cigs is one of the most bafflingly wrongheaded things going on right now. the sheer amount of bullshit and non-facts in that huffington post article makes it seem like some sinister cabal is behind it all, a sinister cabal who would rather millions die in agony from problems caused real smoking than give the ok to something that *looks a bit like* real smoking. im not even convinced cig companies are behind it as they've bought up a shitload of e-cig companies and can make £££ from that too, albeit a bit less than from Bad Smoking but also: less evil.

HP article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/03/electronic-cigarettes_n_3818941.html

but yeah, anyone care to recommend their favourite e-cig/fluid manufacturer? totally-wicked seem the most legit uk company so far but i'd like to try more. my gf has an e-cig that smokes totally differently to mine, a real smooth gentle but noticeable hit, no button, you just suck. little glass section near the mouthpiece where the fluid goes and a tacky glass prism bit on the other end that glows up various colours, looks v feminine but dying to get hold of one because it smokes so well.

bought this 8 inch gaudy monster from dubai:

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31/p180x540/1506305_10200697967645085_1883636180_o.jpg

only use bubblegum fluid in it.

highly recommend trying out some nicotine free fluids too, TW do these weird herbal 0% all-natural ones, some weird flavours like cardamom & licorice but 'organge blush' is awesome. smoke these much more than nicotine ones when just relaxing at home (only really use nicotine ones when on nights out/working)

oops, repeated myself a bit up there. apologies, it's early

i recently got this one: http://www.insmoke.ch/2013/10/24/insmoke-reevo-mini-s/

in switzerland it's not legal to sell the nicotine liquid but i got some from croatia. it's def the best e-cig i've tried so far. it doesn't look cheap and doesn't look like a cigarette either (no dumb flashing end) which i've decided is a plus. it's slightly larger than the other e-cigs i've tried but it's also lighter. the size is mostly due to the large battery and i'm finding it lasts for 2-3 days which is v good compared to the last one i tried would never even make it through a night out. i got the weakest nicotine liquid i could find but i also got some nicotine-free liquid which is fine but doesn't give you the feeling at the back of your throat. i'm too embarrassed to smoke it most places (not because i'm embarrassed of smoking an e-cig but just because it's so shocking to see) but i have smoked it in the pub and felt ok & no-one around seemed to mind. it really doesn't smell at all. the technique of smoking it is a bit different but i genuinely find it more satisfying that smoking a real cigarette on top of all the obvious benefits. v pleased really.

given some ppl itt (and presumably irl) are concerned about the second hand vapour i'm thinking maybe next time i would go outside to smoke it at the pub. i'm not trying to aggravate anyone by smoking it honestly - i just like to smoke when i'm having a drink but also don't want to die of lung cancer.

i'm not sure how i feel about the advertising right now. until the health effects are better understood and while tobacco products are still being sold it maybe seems like a bad idea to encourage people to get hooked on nicotine. hard to think about it rationally due to years of self-hatred as a smoker tho.

i love this thing!

haven't had a cigarette all year and has no desire to do ever do so again.

Jesus Christ, these things... I got one of the proper fancier ones after starting off with the supermarket disposables, which were too hit-and-miss, mostly miss.

Now it's all about constantly hunting for this little charger that I've misplaced (and when I do find it, which it looks like I won't tonight, do I do the charging in the fire-proof bag the shop kindly gave me to stop my house burning down?), and constantly refilling the other end with this greasy liquid that when it spills on my hand, which it always does, after I've managed to open the goddamn little bottle with its human-proof lid, tastes like nothing I'd want in my lungs, however they market it, and then after all this constantly changing the middle bit too.

If I want to unscrew the battery, I have to make sure not to unscrew the bit right next to it, or else greasy liquid will pour over me. If I want to unscrew the bit to refill with greasy liquid, I've got to make sure I'm doing it the right way up, then remember I didn't open the greasy-liquid bottle beforehand and be left with too few hands.

And my desk is full of bits: spare batteries, spare middle bits, spare bits where you put the greasy liquid, and spare bottles of greasy liquid. I should've got a spare charger when I was at it, but no luck.

That fire-proof bag might not be a bad idea, there have been 13 e-cig charging related house fires just in my local region in the last year.

I haven't smoked in 18 months now and miss the ciggies oftentimes, even if I was to relapse into the habit I would definitely go back to sucking in real death.

Well I just smoke these things in the gaps between smoking real cigarettes anyway. If anything they make it more difficult for me to stop properly, which I used to do fairly regularly. I'd rather a week of cold-turkey suffering than this pretend puffing all the time. For myself, I realise that what I am addicted to is not nicotine itself but the smell and the taste of the best nights of my youth, which is irreplicable.

mr veg has pretty much replaced cigs with one of the fancier models like what you described above, forever ordering little bottles of liquid, spilling liquid, charging batteries and whatnot

kind of a lot of messing about but not having to buy cigs all the time, and the no smell thing def make a difference imo

anyone tried these new sub-ohm ecigs that are out now, in the uk at least? next-level stuff, they're the first ones i've given to hardened smokers where they've said they could see that replacing real cigs. more like an intense bong hit than any of the piddly predecessors, not something to toke constantly but kinda amazing when in the right mood

One of the more infamous internal memos from a tobacco company that was brought to light during the litigation of the late 90s concerned how cigarettes should be considered primarily as "nicotine delivery devices". It seems to me that e-cigs are simply a logical extension of that philosophy.

It is obvious to me that nicotine has effects on its users that cannot be duplicated by any other drug currently known, but that it is also cruelly addictive. Legitimizing e-cigs requires one to ask the question: even if some of the cancerous effects of conventional smoking could be eliminated, are there legitimate reasons for society to encourage addiction to nicotine?

Having both smoked for over a decade in the past and having quit smoking long ago, I still don't feel entirely competent to answer this question. My inclination is to say 'no', but mainly on the grounds that addictive drugs rarely, if ever, repay the psychological and physical cost of addiction, not because I know whether or not nicotine might be an exception to this rule.

to go down that route would mean looking at caffeine, sugar and other addictive substances with low-level consequences. not really sure what the pay-off is for nicotine though - most of the anti-ecig chatter is that it encourages kids to use them, gateway to smoking tobacco, makes smoking seem 'ok', etc. not much about the specific aftereffects of nicotine consumption

if it came out that nicotine in this form was more damaging than currently known i'd move to switch to zero mg fluid without any major fuss. a big part of the pleasure for me is the 'doing something' with my hands, rather than chewing fingernails, picking nose, etc. it's as much about the sensation and taste as it is the effects of the nicotine

I know that e-cigarettes will not be made illegal because there would be no sense in doing so while regular cigarettes are still legal. The main question in my mind is whether or not society should adopt a more tolerant and easy attitude about e-cigs, while maintaining the current harshly disapproving attitude toward traditional cigs.

There are lots of explicit or implicit claims being made about the relative health and safety of vaping compared to smoking and the arguments being made, both pro and con, seem rather dodgy to me. All I know is that there's plenty of money to be made out of nicotine addiction and whereas the commercial interests are obvious, the interests of society are not yet clear at all.

yeah, main thing right needed now are legit tests done to help stem the hearsay on both sides. even then there'll be decades of back-and-forth about it, same with sweetener/aspartame. my flawed take on it is, people have been using the modern form of e-cigs for nearing a decade now and there hasn't been any verifiable health-scandals so i'll take that risk for a) the pleasure i get from it, and b) it's almost certainly less damaging to my health than smoking, at least in the short-term.

but that's more about e-fluid/vaping in general, which does include 0% nicotine. do you feel the same way about nicotine gum and patches?

The patches seem like they are unlikely to be abused by a first time user, but are geared pretty exclusively to feeding a current addiction. I didn't use a patch during my quitting, so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of how effective they would be as a tool for managing withdrawal.

My suspicion is that the patches might help very heavy addicts (two pack a day or higher), if they are managed as part of a fairly structured schedule of withdrawal. For someone like myself, who stayed around half a pack a day most of the time, I am skeptical about their utility, but willing to be convinced.

The nicotine gum seems pretty pointless to me, but again it doesn't seem like a habit one would acquire without already having smoked and becoming an addict beforehand.

Otoh, the e-cigs seem much more likely to become a gateway to first time nicotine use than either the patches or gum.

you've got me thinking now, what are the negatives of unadulterated nicotine addiction, and how do they compare with caffeine, sugar, aspertame, etc. gona look into it and report back

you're probably right about the gateway thing, to a degree. if i weren't a smoker when the whole flavoured ecig thing came about, i'd have certainly gone for them. maybe with nicotine, maybe not - the whole coughy phlegmy smelly gunk thing about smoking was always a major drawback for me, stopped me smoking more than i otherwise would.

the only noticeable side effects so far was when i switched to these sub-ohm ecigs a couple of weeks back. basically they give out a intense blast of vapour, like a bong version of vaping, so you're taking in a more concentrated hot of nicotine than with the usual types. got a bit woozy to start with and couldn't use it too much but found myself having horrifying nightmares for a few days, can't be certain they were linked to this but felt like it was. gone now, mind

> The patches seem like they are unlikely to be abused by a first time user, but are geared pretty exclusively to feeding a current addiction

I'm actually quite surprised given the prevalence of recreational drug use, as well as nicotine cited as a main reason smokers like smoking, that patches and gums don't seem to be used much by nicotine first-timers.

The effects of nicotine are sort of undramatic. It won't make you high, stoked, ecstatic, or stupidly oblivious. It is more of a mood smoother, taking the edge off anxiety or giving you a slight boost when you're tired. You tend to learn what nicotine does only after you've started to use it.

Cigarettes were never sold to first-timers based on the drug effects of nicotine. Cigarettes were always sold based on changing your image. You become a grown-up, a rebel, a sophisticate, or some other glamorous role by lighting up or chawing down.

Aimless, are your concerns based specifically on nicotine, or on the abstract idea of an addictive drug given mainstream acceptance?

afaics, nicotine doesn't compromise one's ability to function in society, so long as one is getting one's habit fed at appropriate intervals. It doesn't seem particularly debilitating on its own. What bothers me most is that the business model of suppliers of addictive drugs requires them to create addicts and once an addict is created they are not in control of their addiction. The most promising raw material from which to create addicts are young people with poor judgment and people in mental distress. Once you're inside an addiction it takes vast energy to get out again.

It is all pretty directly analogous to parasites, where the drug supplier is a parasite upon the addict, and instead of blood or some other food, the supplier sucks money into itself, which represents a certain amount of the addict's life. Even if it turns out that the effects on the addict's health are minimal when nicotine is divorced from the other toxic compounds in tobacco, this business model is not a good thing for those on either end of the transaction.

I know addiction and drugs will always be an aspect of society. The question is one of management, not eradication, which is why the War on Drugs was always doomed to fail. War seeks victory and conquest, but that was never a realistic option. Same with e-cigs and nicotine. The only questions are how to manage them properly.

My emerging sense is that if e-cigs genuinely eliminate the main health risks of smoking, then the best approach is limiting their availability and appeal to the young, taxing them, but at a lower rate than regular cigs, and presenting a general social attitude of moderate disapproval of nicotine addiction and great disdain for the profiteers who supply it. That ought to be about right. But only if e-cigs prove to be much safer than cigarettes.

If e-cigs genuinely eliminate the health risks of smoking, why should nicotine be viewed any differently than caffeine?

i guess i see it as a tool more than a liability. paracetamol fixes headaches, nicotine relaxes, caffeine gives an energy boost. thought same in my teenage years, lsd every few months for a mind reboot, whizz to stay up doing coursework etc. never been all that skittish about drugs, (still bust out the beta blockers, valium, modafinil, etc) and never had any regrets. except xenical. xenical was bad.

by bust out i mean 'do once every few months'. but yeah anyway, if anyone's thinking of getting a sub-ohm battery & tank i totally recommend it. ecig era v2.0 type shit

why should nicotine be viewed any differently than caffeine?

Addictive quality of the two drugs are not very comparable.

Why not? They are quite similar in their effect on the brain. If there are no health risks from being addicted to nicotine then what is the problem? Why do we need society to "disapprove" of one and not the other?

i have a friend who's a total vaping geek. carries around this thing with a light that looks like a gameboy and fills the whole room with steam. fuckin' weird

Firstly, there is a qualitative difference between "eliminat[ing] the main health risks of smoking", which is what I said, and "no health risks", which is what the Colonel thinks I was talking about. If we are speaking of zero health risk, as in none, absolutely risk free, no matter how much is taken, then I'm certainly willing to reconsider.

Secondly, I surmise the Colonel has never seriously tried to quit a nicotine addiction, or if he has, then I would surmise that he failed, is still addicted and is rationalizing his failure by minimizing his addiction. These are, of course, guesses only and not to be used for investment purposes. He can provide the facts, if he wishes to.

i don't know if an addiction to something with minimal health risks is that much of a doomsday situation.

here's what i've found out so far. other than nicotine, e-fluid has 3 components: flavouring, propylene glycol (used in ice cream) and vegetable glycerin (used in low-fat cookies). they're all deemed safe for human consumption, though there are reports that propylene glycol can cause respiratory inflammation and increase asthma risk (not something i or other people i know who use e-cigs have noticed).

looking at pure nicotine, there's one fuzzy study saying it increases the risk of cancer (contradicted by cancer rates of snus users in sweden and a bunch of other studies), and that pregnant women should avoid it. not much else.

overall, it seems about as bad eating some brie then riding a bike through a town centre.

if the issue here is about addiction, then as said above, we'd need to look just as hard at caffeine, sugar, fat in food and a whole host of other things that make life worth living.

broken link, sorry: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22751349

if the issue here is about addiction, then as said above, we'd need to look just as hard at caffeine, sugar, fat in food

Count me as highly skeptical of the claim that any of these are comparably as addictive as nicotine.

Just in passing, I don't think a human infant could possibly grow up healthy without any fat in its diet. Fat plays an absolutely crucial role in brain and nerve development. There is no clear threshold where fat transitions from a critical element that is utterly necessary to health, to where it is an addictive substance. You can hardly say the same of nicotine.

they're all deemed safe for human consumption

Consumption meaning eating/digesting, right? There has to be a difference between eating and inhaling. I'd imagine if you inhaled plenty of food that was 'safe for consumption' it would be a dangerous thing to do.

Consumption meaning eating/digesting, right? There has to be a difference between eating and inhaling. I'd imagine if you inhaled plenty of food that was 'safe for consumption' it would be a dangerous thing to do.

possibly yeah, i'm no scientist so i couldn't speculate. think we can agree the proper tests on it all are long overdue, til then it just means more debates like this where no one is really sure either way

i have heard some talk about how when certain chemicals in e-fluid are burned at a certain high rate they convert into a substance more damaging than previously. this is more for 'dripping' and this sub-ohm stuff

Count me as highly skeptical of the claim that any of these are comparably as addictive as nicotine.

but why would it matter when the proven negative side effects of consuming unadulterated nicotine are close to nil?

the damaging side effects of consuming above average amounts of fat and sugar are clear. the damaging side effects of consuming above average levels of nicotine are fuzzy at best.

There is no clear threshold where fat transitions from a critical element that is utterly necessary to health, to where it is an addictive substance.

maybe not a clear threshold, but there's research saying fat is addictive: http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/12December/Pages/High-fat-food-addictive.aspx

to be clear, when i said 'proper tests on it all are long overdue' i mean tests on the other chemicals in e-fluid, which could feasibly turn out to be damaging in the same way the various chemicals in cigarettes are. and could kill my concept of 0mg fluid as the 'untouchable toke'.

but i'm talking specifically about nicotine with aimless, covering gum, snus, patches, etc. also, i should clarify i mean 'proven physical side effects', because psychological side effects are a whole different issue

Aimless is being pretty disingenuous at best.

Sorry for writing "no health risks" when I meant "no significant health risks" which I don't think is different to "eliminating the main health risks of smoking". I don't think it changes anything though. You are not being consistent. You want zero zero zero health risks before you will countenance nicotine use, which I was comparing to caffeine, which itself does not have zero health risks and IME is perhaps not as addictive as nicotine (although I don't know how you measure this) but I don't think anyone would try to say it's not an addictive substance.

As for your "surmising", I could surmise a few things about you from that paragraph, but that wouldn't be fair would it? The facts are this if you must know - I did smoke regularly in my youth, gave it up for a year or 2 and since then I occasionally smoke cigarettes or e-cigs when I'm drinking alcohol. I'm fully aware of how addictive nicotine is and how hard it is to give up. I suppose you'll say that the fact I smoke at all means I'm still addicted and I'm in denial or something. Maybe that's true to some degree, I do crave nicotine a bit when I've had a couple of pints, but I don't experience that in other situations.

If there are no health risks from being addicted to nicotine then what is the problem? Why do we need society to "disapprove" of one and not the other?

because nicotine has an established, legal, alternative form of delivery that has decades of cool mythology attached to it and is pretty much guaranteed to give you cancer

coffee does not

you might have a point with sugar though

fingers crossed, nicotine also now has an established, legal, alternative form of delivery that has a decade of cool mythology attached to it and is pretty much guaranteed to not give you cancer.

or so i hope. even if not, i'd probably weigh it up and carry on using this stuff, with an eye toward cutting nicotine levels down, and eventually getting to 0mg

ymmv re: 'cool mythology'. someone on ilx once described e-cig users (loathe to use the word 'vapers') as something like "overweight aspie rubes who think they're in the matrix". really key to drag the whole thing away from these schmoes, make it more ordinary and hum-drum

caffeine, which... is perhaps not as addictive as nicotine (although I don't know how you measure this)

Interesting question. I suggest one might decide by comparing what percentage of attempts made to quit each substance end in failure after a certain amount of time, for example a week, a month or a year. You could add a lot of variables to that model to refine it, but that would form a useful basis.

There is no way caffeine is addictive as nicotine surely.

(and I wonder if codeine is more addctive than both? hm. Whats with all the eines).

codeine is definitely addictive yeah, but it'd be more useful to look beyond the level of addictiveness and focus on real-life side effects. codeine definitely has some nasty side effects: temp amnesia & debilitating comedown; caffeine gives that anxious fretfulness and inability to sleep; non-cigarette nicotine has... nothing overtly obvious.

i'm being a bit devil's advocate here, but beyond this abstract concept of addictiveness how does it impact on one's everyday life? not that much, as far as i can tell

You are presuming a well-fed nicotine addiction. The moment you stop feeding it, there are definite real world impacts.

true, but the only reason you've given to stop feeding it is 'addiction' in and of itself. the reasons to feed it are similar to those of most pleasures (alcohol, food, caffeine etc) but with side effects that appear to be less harmful. my main point here is that you're not giving a very convincing argument for your belief that society shouldn't have a "tolerant and easy attitude about ecigs"

As any cigarette smoker can tell you, there come times when feeding your addiction stops temporarily, not because you reasoned yourself into that position, but because your supply has been used up or unexpected exigencies intervene. That is when comes home to you what addiction really means.

caffeine and alcohol are quite different in that it's not this constant treadmill of consumption. mentally, nicotine is a drain because it's always hanging around in your mind, one cig's worth of it doesn't last long, you're always looking forward to the next one.

granted there are real-deal alcoholics and people who drink 8 cups of coffee a day, but for people who have these things under control they're not thinking about the next cup of coffee or the next beer on a near constant basis. but the vast majority of people who are addicted to nicotine are thinking about the next time they'll get to have a lil' drag, maybe not consciously, but as a kind of constant companion. and this possibly even as much as the long-term health benefits is why i'm so glad i stopped smoking - to be free of this little voice perched on my shoulder, always there, always suggesting i find another little moment to indulge in my little pleasure.

both otm. Beware of rationalizing addiction, it's one of the main ways a substance can control you. It can be a slippery slope.

"but adam, you eat FOOD all the time, should i not be judging you for that??"

apologies, been away a few days. been thinking about this thread a bit, sorry for epic post.

so i actually spent last weekend with a guy who has a similar fear of addiction as the one expressed in this thread. he's obsessed with getting his nicotine intake down to the lowest possible level, mixing 0mg with 0.6mg to get it to 0.2mg, comes across as very concerned about being controlled by a substance. most everyone else rolled their eyes and told him to lighten up but it was interesting to see them used as a tool to reduce nicotine addiction. it does seem to be the natural progression for most ecig users to reduce their intake over time, especially after the first few weeks/months.

and i dunno, i think it's ok to look at things in a rational way. it's fine to have a glass of wine at the end of a day's work, it's fine to have a burger after a few days of eating healthily, and similarly i think it's fine to use an ecig as the pleasure i get from it (and it is pleasurable, let's not go down the route of claiming it's fake) outweigh the costs.

as for the foreboding 'slippery slope', where does this particular slope lead to? they're not like other vices. with cigs, it's hammering away at your health, alcohol same with added mental and social problems, sugar & fatty foods it's health again, heroin it's being outside the law and the chaos that comes with that. ecigs are cheap, legal & have no notable impact on health. as for supply running out, the only time i can see that happening is if it's made illegal, which is unlikely, or if i get on long plane journey and even then it's hardly a living hell, just a few hours of mild frustration.

there's a bit of a one-size-fits-all attitude in some of the above posts. most the smokers i know (and myself) are/were casual, around 5 a day for years, so the thing about "nicotine always hanging around in your mind" isn't an issue for everyone, nowhere near. "one cig's worth of it doesn't last long" is interesting as people don't generally use ecigs like cigarettes, it's not like sitting down for five minutes sucking away, it's spread over a longer period of time, takes much longer to consume the equivalent amount of nicotine. (btw is 8 cups of coffee deemed out of control? i know plenty of people who have more. when im working i'll have a cup of tea or diet coke every 90 mins or so, which points to an addiction/'constant companion' but it's not something i beat myself up over.)

out of interest, when you guys (tracer, aimless) were smokers how many did you have a day? and how did you quit? with a lot of ex-smokers there's a zealous 'everything to do with cigarettes is evil' attitude. and that's mostly true, most things about cigarettes are nasty, but people still do it. and they do it for the relaxing, mind-focusing effects of nicotine. if we get rid of the shite elements, then what's left isn't that bad. obv if you hate the idea of being reliant on something then maybe it is, but if you apply that across the board you'll be living a cold austere not-much-fun life, imo.

so yeah, a lot of the doomsday situations given above seem a bit thin to me. obviously i'm biased because i enjoy using these things but on the off-chance someone reads this thread and leaves thinking 'oh, might as well stick with my bensons', well, here's the other side of the coin.

and finally (again sorry for length, i'm spitballing a bit here for an article) i've also come across some other stuff lately, namely that nicotine can be helpful when it comes to dementia, alzheimers, tourettes, and depression. plus a bunch of other things such as parkinsons, schizophrenia, weight loss, blood vessel growth etc. and some scientists claim it isn't addictive at all, though i'd need to hear more about that. (i didn't come here to stan for nicotine btw, just wanted a cheery chat about a shiny new 21st century hobby if uh, anyone still fancies that)

i smoked 10-12 a day, never in the mornings. i quit cold turkey. after a few weeks i found myself more "relaxed" and "mind-focused" than i had in years. there are better hobbies than nicotine consumption, surely? especially when your hobby leads to a few hours of mild frustration when you can't have your little crutch?

i actually don't fear e-cigs as much as i used to. they look so direly stupid it's hard to imagine kids taking them up from scratch.

My habit started out with hand-rolled cigarettes, then moved over to store-bought non-filter Camels. It tended to stay in the vicinity of 10-15 a day. I tapered off over about 4 months, down to about 5-6 a day before I quit. Quitting still was a bit like bear-wrestling for the first three weeks or so, after which it gradually improved.