It's the ILE 2010 General Election (UK) Opinion Poll

if Sinn Fein don't win this poll

Why not, eh? We poll everything else.

But Steely Dan aren't fielding any candidates.

spoiler vote for sinn fein

http://frtim.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/green.jpg

of course the most popular option in this poll will be not to vote

Shit. Forgot to put that on. Mods?

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Vote early, vote often, as they say.

I'm voting for the candidate, not the party

Will the candidate work for you or the party?

On his past record, for me

vote like a motherfucker for them and if they don't get in send them over here.

I'm voting for the candidate, not the party

would like to do this but unfortunately we have to have parties

vote for candidates that disagree, hope that enough others will begin to do the same.

I'm betting there are plenty of disagreeable candidates running for parliament, usually are

My choice seems to be between Tessa Jowell, Ann Other, or none of the above. Tough one.

She's OK, Tessa Jowell, husband's a wrong 'un tho

Considering not voting for the first time. Used to vote SNP but they have displeased me in manifold ways of late.

Voted strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
Voted very strongly for allowing ministers to intervene in inquests.
Voted strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
Voted very strongly for replacing Trident.
Voted moderately for introducing a smoking ban.

Overly simplified, but not really feeling her tbh.

How do you vote very strongly? Do you flex your muscles while doing it?

use permanent marker

I think you have to write 'FUCKING HELL YES FOR GAWDSAKES' on your ballot paper?

Not really feeling like I've got a choice.

Harriet Harman

# Voted very strongly for introducing ID cards.
# Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
# Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.

Hardly ever rebels against their party in this parliament.

Majority: 13,483 votes. — 17th out of 643 MPs

AYE!

(x-post)

pardon my ignorance, but where can i see how my constituants voted?

i didn't know you were an mp.

Are you an MP? (xpost - gah! beaten to it)

when did daniel sturridge become a chelsea constituent!

haha

okay wrong vernacular.

aw shit nobody told me that daniel sturridge moved to chelsea and torn his vernacular. he's still on my fantasy team

dog latin, is this what you're after?

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/

Some highlights from my MP's voting record:

Voted very strongly for removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords.
Voted very strongly against introducing student top-up fees.
Voted very strongly against the Iraq war.
Voted strongly for an investigation into the Iraq war.
Voted strongly against Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
Voted strongly for equal gay rights.
Voted very strongly against replacing Trident.
Voted very strongly against introducing foundation hospitals.

cheers nickb, yes it's what i meant. ilx knows i'm a dumbass.

Tom - Jeremy Corbyn or Diane Abbott?

My sitting MP (Labour) appears to be retiring, and the new candidate appears to be an identikit New Labour lawyer type woman. Not terribly enthusiastic.

Corbyn, who is officially the most rebellious MP in the Commons! No way would I be crowing about having Diane Abbott as an MP! (xp)

I've got Jeremy Corbyn too so it's always an easy choice for me, whatever problems I have with Labour nationally. If I lived in Harriet Harman's constituency I'm sure it would be a lot more complicated.

Argh arrgggh argh I don't KNOOOOWWWW. This is really a "not voting for who you really want but voting against who you really *don't* want" option. Mine is a solid Labour seat, though, so I think I should probably do tactical message voting, but still.

Bah!

Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
Voted strongly for an investigation into the Iraq war.
Voted very strongly against the hunting ban.
Voted moderately for laws to stop climate change.
Voted against a transparent Parliament.
Voted strongly against removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords.
Voted strongly against a wholly elected House of Lords.
Voted very strongly for replacing Trident.
Voted very strongly against equal gay rights.

Who's that, Matt? You live approx 5 mins' walk from my house but I think you're in Greenwich - we're saddled with Bridget Prentice for ever and ever and ever

Oh. Mine is standing down, apparently. So that's why the Lib Dems are pretty much spamming me via every means of communication I have.

"Rebels are we, born to be free..."

Top Ten:

Jeremy Corbyn Islington North Lab 25.2%
John McDonnell Hayes & Harlington Lab 25.2%
Kate Hoey Vauxhall Lab 25.1%
Alan Simpson Nottingham South Lab 20.5%
Lynne Jones Birmingham, Selly Oak Lab 16.2%
David Drew Stroud Lab 16.0%
Kelvin Hopkins Luton North Lab 14.6%
Robert Marshall-Andrews Medway Lab 13.0%
Mike Wood Batley & Spen Lab 12.5%
Frank Field Birkenhead Lab 10.9%

we're saddled with Bridget Prentice for ever and ever and ever

Rong.

Oh wait, Prentice IS standing down. Whoopee.

Who are you lumbered with, doglatin? That's a pretty grim voting record.

List above reminds me how much I like Bob Marshall-Andrews. Shame he's on his way out.

Is there anywhere we can find out who's standing in our area if the current is standing down?

Jeremy Corbyn Islington North Lab 25.2%
John McDonnell Hayes & Harlington Lab 25.2%

I've seen John McDonnell speak at a few climate change rallies, seems like a pretty solid guy.

fwiw, this is her record - 100% Blairite

# Voted moderately against a transparent Parliament.
# Voted very strongly for the hunting ban.
# Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
# Voted very strongly for allowing ministers to intervene in inquests.
# Voted strongly for introducing a smoking ban.
# Voted very strongly for introducing foundation hospitals.
# Voted strongly for introducing student top-up fees.
# Voted strongly for removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords.
# Voted moderately against a wholly elected House of Lords.
# Voted moderately against laws to stop climate change.
# Voted very strongly for introducing ID cards.
# Voted very strongly for replacing Trident.
# Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
# Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
# Voted very strongly for equal gay rights.
# Voted a mixture of for and against greater autonomy for schools.

LOL top Tory rebel:

Kenneth Clarke Rushcliffe Con 6.6%

Is there anywhere we can find out who's standing in our area if the current is standing down?

http://www.google.co.uk

Tried that, it wasn't helpful.

Who are you lumbered with, doglatin? That's a pretty grim voting record.

List above reminds me how much I like Bob Marshall-Andrews. Shame he's on his way out.

― gotanynewsstory? (Dorianlynskey), Thursday, 25 March 2010 13:40 (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The Right Honorable Peter Lilley, Hitchin & Harpenden. There were a couple of positives that mitigated the cons that I didn't post up, but on the whole he's not the man for me.

Bob Marshall-Andrews is a cunt

*yawn*

I saw him on Kingsland Road about a year ago. Excellent.

If I lived in Harriet Harman's constituency I'm sure it would be a lot more complicated.

Yeah, really. Said upthread I didn't really have a choice, because she's so safe (& I'm the usual left-Labour, ambivalent at best about New Labour), but may message vote - Green, or Lib Dem if it looks like they can take a big chunk off her majority.

otoh she pisses off scum like the guy running harrietharmansucks (delib no link), so y'know, let's work Hatty.

Is there anywhere we can find out who's standing in our area if the current is standing down?

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/london#f Then click on your constituency and you get all the candidates and the demographics of the seat and all sorts.

I'm voting for Karen Jennings (Labour) Former nurse. Head of health at UNISON. I voted for Lynne Featherstone in 2005 in an anti-war fervour, and she's alright for a Lib Dem I suppose, but she's on the radio every Sunday evening and she's got a really irritating voice.

I'm an "unrepentant labour stan" though.

My MP's standing down as well, which going by his voting record is a shame as he seems the sort of Labour candidate I actually want to vote for.

The new Labour candidate seems alright enough, the things she was for/against in the leaflet we got through the door were mostly local issues though so I don't know what she's about in general. Some people are grumbling about her being a quangocrat or something. She was mayor of Waltham Forest apparently.

xpost I voted Lynne Featherstone as well in 2005, it's different this time though, I didn't think the Tories stood a chance in 2005. And now I've moved to a different constituency anyway.

Guy standing for the Lib Dems in mine came last in the 1980 Olympic Decathlon.

For my situation re:2005 and re:2010 see Colonel Poo (who has spent five years following me around London and copying my voting patterns).

damn, foiled again

OK, who the fuck are the "English Democrats" and why are they standing some DDB child in my constituency?!?!?

http://images.starnow.com/images/member/37/profile/medium/556237_1612417.jpg

^^^^would not trust him with joint-rolling responsibilities let alone parliamentary!

Ah, I'm going to vote for Rebecca Findlay. She's Green party, she's a woman, her day job is working for Family Planning Association (A+) and she's involved with Sustainable Streatham.

Janus Polenceus has got to be a made up name.

Pretty sure that on Sundays that dude gets dressed up in chainmail and re-enacts historical battles.

Guy standing for the Lib Dems in mine came last in the 1980 Olympic Decathlon.

Columb4 Blang0! Only 3,415 points behind Our Daley.

Did he keep stopping to discus politics?

http://www.facebook.com/profile/pic.php?oid=AAAAAwAgACAAAAAJScYPk9LYR4MReFhOD-AJ_vsriK0dJnTMa8k-bMxUb5pkezFh6vo1YbsziPq8Qp1SDXuAvyqgc60w2xSPeQi84sTlEmbQFh7JKHZpHgxf4N9GcS08scrYbdKuq5BJqb8F&size=normal

Amazing.

Pretty sure that on Sundays that dude gets dressed up in chainmail and re-enacts historical battles.

Googling him reveals his actors headshots and loads of pictures of him dressed up in St George's gear and lots of campaigning for the celebration of St George's Day, so you're not far off, but with a nasty right wing aftertaste.

::shudders::

christ who let the barmy army on our political system

Would vote:

http://rebeccafindlay4greenmp.blogspot.com/

WOULD NOT NOT NOT SCARY NO NO VOTE:

http://www.southlondon-today.co.uk/tn/news.cfm?id=19801

Oh, there's a Labour dude with the also brilliant name of Chuka Umunna but even that pales besides a name like Janus Polenceus.

Columb4 Blang0! Only 3,415 points behind Our Daley.

And 2,536 behind second-last. I think he has my vote.

The Eddie the Eagle of the decathlon?

He would probably have got a better result in the vault if only there had been poling reform.

He'll have to overcome the hurdle of a considerable Labour majority if he's to win the seat

Wow, ignorantly enough I did not know that Peter Lilley (dog latin's MP and Drop the Dead Donkey's slimy git of the week for 400 weeks running) was still going.

My local Lib Dem MP's voting record looks pretty good, and apparently boundary changes this time round have left fewer potentially lefty city voters in my part-rural constituency which already had the Tories in second place, so regardless of some misgivings re the LDs as a party - like there is a party I do not have misgivings about - I will be voting for him and v much hoping the Tories don't get in locally (I only just moved here! out of a safe Tory seat! don't let them follow me around!)

Evan Harris is kind of a good guy, though no doubt mr. history mayne will along any minute to tell us he's a cunt - 'cept he isn't Labour, therefore he can't be a cunt

his tory mayne

Harris was mine for a while, voted for him in 97 iirc (Labour not in the running there, right?). Always seemed like the epitome of sensible, reasonable & decent Lib Demness.

'cept he isn't Labour, therefore he can't be a cunt

is there anyone Labour you would agree with mayne about being a cunt?

(xp) Labour in very distant third place. Trying to find more details of the boundary changes to see how much to worry about increased threat of Torydom.

(realised too late that I shouldn't have opened the can of worms that is left vs right on ILX, and particularly not by attributing either to the Lib Dems, preferring instead some more subtle terminology like "voters who may not all be entirely self-interested hateful bastards" - except I think I'm pitting Tory-voting villages against students, so I don't even know which will get more of ILX's ire)

is there anyone Labour you would agree with mayne about being a cunt?

I don't know, he probably only calls the half decent ones cunts, and praises the cunts, that's how he usually works isn't it?

it's the same on ILM!

he posts half-cunt

My local Lib Dem candidate spells it "Bethnel Green & Bow" on his homepage. FFS.

Bethnel Death Knell For Lib Dem Candidate's Hopes

He probably didn't write it himself but yeah

Bob Marshall-Andrews is a cunt

yes

corbyn too

How's that for a re-entrance?

As the right Right Honorable John Major MP said to the Right Honorable Edwina Currie MP

Was googling around the English Democrats, thinking they weren't all that bad, kind of harmless and then

England is the third most densely populated country in the world and the most densely populated country in Europe.

We don't have space or resources to permit more large scale immigration.

We say mass immigration must be ended. We would deport illegal immigrants and all those who are extremists, terrorists and criminals.

We would get control of our immigration systems by leaving the EU!

*********

It is time common sense prevailed. The various quangos promoting political correctness should be closed and those laws promoting political correctness repealed. We want English freedoms and values, not multiculturalism.

deport illegal immigrants and all those who are extremists, terrorists and criminals.

what's the actual problem here tho?

(so bored at work btw)

England is the third most densely populated country in the world and the most densely populated country in Europe.

Uh this like really really really not true

i was gonna say that's not right

I think they mean the highest population of dense people?

For a start, Netherlands is more densely populated

xp well deport those too

next

Though maybe, like Belgium, it's not a proper country

is it tho? lots and lots of netherlands ain't nothin but grass

ok gibraltar is no.5 so does that count?

Yeah, but that's just Amsterdam. xp

after macau singapore and hong kong, which isn't british anymore

oic wat u did dere

UK- no.51 on list btw.

So basically they're like the Bee Enn Pee but thicker, and hate Europeans as well as black people?

We really needed two of those?

Oh, and probably the Scottish and Welsh as well, since they're ENGLISH.

Though I'll vote for anyone that would BAN THE WELSH.

*room falls silent*

Anti-Cymrite

amycrite?

Double consonanted weirdoes. Death to their unpronouncable ways!

llunts

As in Bob Marshallll-Andrews is a llunt?

Then we'll give Cornwall back to the Cornish to stop them polluting our Englishness with their cream teas and their shitty acid techno.

this is rapidly becoming a very sellable manifesto imo

Berwick Upon Tweed, that's Scottish, that's got to go. In fact, we'll cut the country off at Hadrian's Wall and see them go crying back to their pictish paymasters!

a wall, let's not forget, that was built by non-unionised BRITSH labour

ENGLISH labour thank you very much.

hmmph i ain't looking it up but i'd say there's a good chance of danish in there tbh

I'm not listening to your propaganda, you Irish llunt!

preventing future small scale invasions and unwanted immigration from the northern country of Caledonia (now modern day Scotland)

man, hadrian knew what was up

roman soldiers, apparently though. italian labour brought in by the govt at a time of serious economic stress. fackin romans.

rip dom

So basically they're like the Bee Enn Pee but thicker, and hate Europeans as well as black people?

From what I've gathered, they're almost less thick than the BNP, or a bit less obvious - campaigning mostly on the English Parliament thing, plus withdrawal from Europe. Actively claim to be non-racist, but i) yeah right and ii) it looks like some links to Engl4nd 1st have formed. Real scum.

dom is alive and well and trash-talking Saddams to his face on the DiS board

Alas, one who zinged not wisely but too well

This is probably the source of the England population density line:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

Article claims England overtook Holland in 2008.

Ah, "major" nations

England has taken its position as the most crowded country in Europe

The thing is though, England is not a country in the EU, is it?

A Nation Once Again

395 per km2? So everyone gets 2531m2 each, right? Pls send me details of my personal 50m x 50m plot. Gwladys Street end of the Goodison pitch?

Kind of seems daft to me to insist on the resurrection of these silly intra-national boundaries and then complain that you're overcrowded.

pretty sure yakubu is taking up most of that space already

sorry, yakubu, (23) (N)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

So Clegg *is* the kingmaker, then.

So, if this result was reflected nationally...

This poll doesn't even represent BritLX, never mind reality.

http://saintvespaluus.com/rsb1.jpg

"What's .. realiteh?"

Feeding this poll into the predictor gives us a projected outcome of:
Labour 484
Lib Dems 120
Conservatives 17
Assuming ILX is representative of British society, then it's not looking good for Mr Cameron.

This poll doesn't even represent BritLX, never mind reality.

Yeah, if this was a true reflection of ILX, then pizza would have won and New Order would have come second.

In which case I would demand a recount.

All came down to the pizza's negative campaigning with the "New Order, New Danger" slogan.

xp as if anyone's going to go on ILX and admit they'll be voting for the llunservatives

Clicking a radio button isn't admitting.

(fwiw, it wasn't me)

you don't have to 'admit' it in an anonymous poll tho?

also- you guys are ridiculously blinkered and biased against the tories. it's a good thing for right thinking people everywhere that your little shut-in gang mentality isn't replicated nationally.

Frightened that the Big Brother Fascist Labour Nanny State will trace their IP and SB them.

darraghmac if I thought for a minute that the tories had any commitment to equality then I could consider voting for them. As it is, I trust their intentions even less than Labour.

On which point:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/25/labour-tax-benefits-closed-income-gap

Has it been conclusively established why ILX is vaguely left-liberal, anyway? I suppose the demo is younger than the general pop.

education, and rich people don't have the time to 'site new answers' 300 times a day.

equality for who, on what grounds? i kinda have a vague mistrust of buzzwords.

I don't think education correlates with leftish political views, though, does it? Right about the second point, though.

"Fairness" is a buzzword. "Equality" means what it says, which is why they don't use it.

Although yeah it needs qualifying.

equalification

Equlolity

Equality means a lot of v. different things btw.

Equlolity of Opportunity, for example

all for equality of opportunity, obviously.

if you just list them all i'll give y or n actually.

Equality of Opportunity wd be great, all we need to do is make sure everybody starts their life with the same opportunities. Shd take a couple of years, tops.

Hows about Equal Rights then darragh, y/n?

It's not y n it's more less, though. I don't think many people argue for absolute equality of income or wealth, but a more equal set of outcomes would be nice.

It's "morally and intellectually absurd", to quote Bob Geldof of all people, that someone should earn 100s of times what another person earns, whatever their personal qualities, imo.

That's why Bob's been fighting against Global Capitalism all these years

How about the ILX UK leftist conspiracy being down to a lot of us growing up in the 1980s through the mid '90s?

equality of access to healthcare y/n
equality of life expectancy y/n
equality of access to education y/n
equality of treatment by the legal system y/n

Bob was talking about equality of access to food, I guess, but that particular phrase stuck in my head.

Geldof's wealth was estimated by Broadcast magazine, in 2001, to be £30 million,[60] a position of 18th in a list of UK broadcasters.

In 2007, his two UK properties were owned by companies based in the British Virgin Islands.[61] In the same article his accountant said the registration was an error that he would fix.

£30m is almost 1,500 times my salary :(

Yes but I bet you enjoy Mondays a lot more than he does.

Equality is a pretty novel, and not self-evident, idea, though. Most societies and organisations are hierarchical, and fundamental inequalities have been central organising ideas of society for most of human history, whether that is the caste system or the divine right of kings, or Tutsis and Hutus or whatever.

xpost yes I'm sure Geldof is a llunt, but I liked the phrase. Sorry for bringing him up.

i mean though- geldof has to raise millions for charity through his own personal efforts over thirty years, and be poor as well to get any credit?

i will get around to actually responding to other bits when i get a chance, btw. my 'challenge ilx consensus' is occasionally interrupted by work.

There are no "self-evident" ideas in terms of social organisation tho. Just big sticks and the will to malice, really.

I don't think Geldof has any duty to be poor whatsoever. I think his opinions about poverty are bollocks as long as he defends a system that is in large part responsible for it tho.

Equality of Opportunity wd be great, all we need to do is make sure everybody starts their life with the same opportunities. Shd take a couple of years, tops.

i've all for the strongest possible education, housing and health provisions that can be managed, and i frequently tamper with the idea of eye-watering inheritance taxes tbh, so yeah i'm not necessarily against major changes here. but that's on a cold-blooded 'efficiency of capital resources' steez more than anything else.

i mean though- geldof has to raise millions for charity through his own personal efforts over thirty years, and be poor as well to get any credit?

No, but it's ironic that if he hadn't spent the time raising millions and instead continued with the last days of the Boomtown Rats and then his solo career, he would be poor?

making money in a system != defending the system imo. i've lost weight raging at the irish property scam, but i sure fucking wish my dad had bought me a house in 1995.

I don't think Geldof has any duty to be poor whatsoever. I think his opinions about poverty are bollocks as long as he defends a system that is in large part responsible for it tho.

His only option is to use the system that's there to alleviate the poverty.

Still, one of the few people to have contradicted Thatch to her face and thrived.

it's ironic, maybe- but it's only negative on him if you think he only engaged in charities to get rich- anyone think that?

Darraghmac, I don't get how any Irish person can have knowledge of their country's history, both distant and recent, and not actively detest the British Conservative party.

I don't think anyone thinks that. (bloody 'ell xpost city!)

Equality of Opportunity means v. little unless you change the underlying inequalities that undermine your equal provision. In lots of ways we have rough equality of provision in the UK already.

conservative and unionist party xxp

Equality of Opportunity means v. little unless you change the underlying inequalities that undermine your equal provision. In lots of ways we have rough equality of provision in the UK already.

Can you expand on that? Sounds interesting.

I no longer believe there is any point in voting for a Labour Party that is promising deeper and tougher public spending cuts than under Thatcher. The most basic assumptions that underpinned the New Labour project have been proved to be wrong, it's fatally undermined the good stuff they were doing and now threatens to reverse it entirely.

I'm looking forward to voting with my conscience for the first time since 1997.

So who are you going to vote for?

Can you expand on that?

For example every child in the UK has access to free education, and that free education shd be of the same standard. Should we then expect levels of educational achievement to be purely based on the individual child's ability? Cos hey look what the stats say.

pff.

xpost yeah, some of the biggest factors in educational achievement are whether you were born in poverty and your mother's level of education. so, there's no equality of opportunity without first having more equal outcomes.

I tend to think of the Greens as well-meaning idiots but at least they aren't a party that now ritually infuriates and disgusts me. (xpost to Jamie).

Or for another example: National Health Service, maintaining parity in mortality rates since 1946

The growing up in the '80s thing surely plays a part.

But some of the approach to life can probably be factored in. It's a lot easier to think 'what about me?' than, 'what about the structures in place that enable people of differing backgrounds, incomes and beliefs to live together?' I'm reckoning ilx generally works in the latter camp(apart from on key topics like pizza maybe).

Thinking about and articulating the second doesn't preclude being a Conservative of course, but it does get rid of a lot of people who don't think at all about other people (apart from how they impinge on their life) and just think about themselves - something specifically Thatcherite Conservatism catered to. Go back to the top of post.

I don't mind a bit of conservatism/duty to times past as much as times future rhetoric personally, (both left and right have this, but perhaps right makes more of a play of it), but damn it I do mind money going to the already rich (sorry, trickle down economy), Thatcherite conservatism.

Also ilx just tends to be a bit more progressive, away from the everything new is crap! reactionary opinion and towards, ok, here's something new, let's evaluate it, it's crap! style.

I tend to think of the Greens as well-meaning idiots but at least they aren't a party that now ritually infuriates and disgusts me. (xpost to Jamie).

― Matt DC, Friday, 26 March 2010 11:00 (56 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i hope you like 9/11 truthers!

Darraghmac, I don't get how any Irish person can have knowledge of their country's history, both distant and recent, and not actively detest the British Conservative party.

― Venga, 26 March 2010 10:53 (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

:D

I'm a neutral observer in British politics. I only come in here because it's interesting. I actively detest all three of the main parties in British politics, and both main parties on our side of the water.

xpost

NV - right. I was going to wait till darraghmac answered all my y/n, but basically there is a limit to to how equal your provision of certain fundamental things is while there is a basic huge inequality of wealth and income, and certainly pure equality of opportunity is completely unattainable. It's seen as equality-lite, but for people to have no advantage in life from their background you would have to have 100% inheritance tax, ban all parental support. In fact, babies would have to be snatched from their mothers' arms and raised communally, on exactly the same diet. It's a completely absurd aspiration, whereas, getting greater equality of wealth/income is completely achievable, and would in itself lead to greater equality of opportunity, and greater equality of provision.

Interesting part- Labour under Blair (Important- I'm not that old, so Thatcher is just another crusty political figure from before my time) couldn't have been much worse since the year 2000, and I'd subscribe to the notion of 'sack early, sack often' in politics.

Limit the damage any one party can do until an actual alternative shows- but doggedly voting for a genuinely shitty Labour party achieves nothing imo.

Jamie- i will get round to it!

But i'm with you wrt the problems of motivating parents in a society where they're not allowed to work for their kids, which is essentially what '100% equality of opportunity' would amount to.

getting greater equality of wealth/income is completely achievable, and would in itself lead to greater equality of opportunity, and greater equality of provision

Well we've been "trying" it for decades, and it hasn't, much.

I'm all for working within the realm of the achievable, but that isn't the same as aspiring to next to nothing, for me. You talk as if the way the world's economy is run is unchangeable, or natural, or inevitable. I don't buy any of that. Yes we live in a society that has evolved thru very complex cultural processes. Those processes are still in play. History is made by the accumulation of futile efforts to grab freedom, but I'm tempermentally opposed to collaboration more than futility.

equality of access to healthcare y/n

y for most procedures, certainly.

equality of life expectancy y/n

too many factors relating to individual behaviours for this to be relevant imo. #1 should cover most of the 'inequalities' in this case i think?

equality of access to education y/n

y, unequivocally- me and NV had something liek this out before where it was maybe the first thing we ever agreed on wrt govt/society.

equality of treatment by the legal system y/n

unequivocally

can any govt afford that list

n

Hows about Equal Rights then darragh, y/n?

means everything & nothing- stuff like this reminds me of flight of the conchords- "'one thing we really care about as a a band are 'the issues'. we're very big on 'the issues'."

Matt, unfortunately we'll only ever guess what Labour would actually cut, as however optimistic I am about the Tories not getting a majorty, there is no way Labour are either.

But the comparisons are all a bit misleading, aren't they? The level which you are cutting from and the length of time that you cut, or don't increase real spending, for matters as much as the depth of the cuts, no? For example, he appalling state of public buildings in the late 80s was a result of 10 years of neglect (and presumably the 70s weren't great, either, were they?) I was taught in "temporary" post-war huts, one with an actual gaping hole in the wall that I remember snow coming through.

Any fiscal retrenchment is coming off the back of an unprecedented investment in public services, and presumably would ease off or be reversed once the deficit is reduced.

I'm an unrepentant Labour stan, though.

unprecedented spending in public service is fairly irrelevant if it's come and gone with no real improvement in baseline stats (like NV's NHS beaut)

i mean isn't the tragedy of blairite labour that it could run an office as long as there was no outside input and no final product required?

I suspect that even within the v. limited terms of UK post-war politics, a lot of money has been spent on a lot of the wrong things. The fact that Tory governments have spent less and worse will only really take you so far in your support of another party, really.

But it was basically a Blair-ish move to turn electoral issues into "vote for us, we're more competent administrators than the Blue lot". So darragh otm

Well we've been "trying" it for decades, and it hasn't, much.

As I understand it, when there was greater equality of income (and wealth?) there was greater social mobility, so presumably greater equality of opportunity. Then you had a huge reversal in the 20th century trend towards greater equality from 1979 to 1997 and we've largely trod water since then, despite redistributive policies and an explicit focus on education as a means to greater opportunity.

I certainly don't mean to talk as if the way the world's economy is run is unchangeable, or natural, or inevitable.

The logical conclusion of what I'm saying is that you have to fundamentally change the economic structure if you want to get greater equality.

The logical conclusion of what I'm saying is that you have to fundamentally change the economic structure if you want to get greater equality.

If somebody wd like to pay for a billboard within site of Labour HQ with this printed in gigantic red letters, I wd chip in.

How much would this cost?

unprecedented spending in public service is fairly irrelevant if it's come and gone with no real improvement in baseline stats

I'm very, very wary of the line that the huge increase in public spending hasn't resulted in any improvements to either the NHS or the state school system because, well, I don't believe it's true, and it's primarily a line used by the right as a reason not to really bother spending anything beyond the bare minimum.

I think the best illustration of this is that the state of the NHS and, in particular, the length of the waiting lists were the #1 absolute hot-button issue at the end of the Major administration and they're nowhere near being that now, despite systematic media attempts to undermine the health service.

Yes! Yes! You can come to my birthday party!

I think improvement has taken place. I will never deny that this corrupt, bone-headed, ideology-free, authoritarian government has been better than an imaginary Tory alternative.

unprecedented spending in public service is fairly irrelevant if it's come and gone with no real improvement in baseline stats (like NV's NHS beaut)

― Jermaine Jenason (darraghmac), Friday, 26 March 2010 11:23 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think this misses the point. there have been lots of measurable improvements in nhs healthcare and outcomes. it's just that increasing spending on public services isn't necessarily going to increase equality.

xposts

But better in a very limited sense. On a strategic level, in terms of the damage done to genuine leftist politics in this country, or if you happen to live in one of the sites of military adventures abroad, far far worse.

I'm also hostile to the apparently successful attempt by the right to turn this election into a debate about government profligacy rather than the real issue, which is the failure of the free-market model. But given that none of the parties have a convenient answer to that problem it's hardly surprising.

I genuinely don't understand how anyone who considers themselves to be even centre-left these days can be anything other than furious at this government for the deep, deep damage they have done to the cause of social democracy in this country.

I think I'm just venting now, sorry.

I will never deny that this corrupt, bone-headed, ideology-free, authoritarian government has been better than an imaginary Tory alternative.

Perhaps we could pay to have this put up outside Conservative central office.

the failure of the free-market model

there was a catastrophic failure of regulation, but imo "free market" doesn't mean no regulation, it means no protectionist tariffs between countries. that idea hasn't failed really.

it's true that there are plenty of politicians and businesses who want to conflate free markets and deregulation though.

vote for us, we're more competent administrators than the Blue lot

in a venn diagram where the skillsets of competent administrators are shown with those of decent, civic-minded politicians, there's rarely overlap.

Current version of "free market" doesn't have much in common with Adam Smith to be sure, but I'd argue the phrase is so debased now that we're better off using something else.

Yes! Yes! You can come to my birthday party!

Can we pay to put this up outside the offices of the BNP?

I genuinely don't understand how anyone who considers themselves to be even centre-left these days can be anything other than furious at this government for the deep, deep damage they have done to the cause of social democracy in this country.

― Matt DC, Friday, 26 March 2010 11:36 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

srsly, its a bugger innit, who to vote for without feeling like you've soiled yourself.

I shall be soiling my ballot paper instead.

it means no protectionist tariffs between countries. that idea hasn't failed really

Arguably it hasn't failed because it doesn't actually exist, exhibit A being EU farming subsidies.

there was a catastrophic failure of regulation, but imo "free market" doesn't mean no regulation, it means no protectionist tariffs between countries. that idea hasn't failed really.

Funnily enough, I'm currently reading my (economist) brother's first book about exactly how it *has* failed, and all the ways it's wrecking havoc, especially in the US economy.

you have to fundamentally change the economic structure if you want to get greater equality

the reverse, i think?

I shall be soiling my ballot paper instead.

― Allbran Burg (Noodle Vague), Friday, 26 March 2010 11:44 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

paste your shitty ballot paper onto Diane's front door, and lets see how many architects she hires to wipe it off

I will never deny that this corrupt, bone-headed, ideology-free, authoritarian government has been better than an imaginary Tory alternative

I won't deny it, but I don't mind coming in here and questioning it every now and again when ye'll have me.

xp Diana duh. Johnson that is.

No 1 reason for not voting Tory- likely to be even laxer on regulation than a Labour alternative. But I mean how long does it take to build a credible political party as an alternative to either incumbent because it's not like GB has a leg to stand on in terms of his tough stance on dealing with city cowboys.

I have no idea where a credible political party would situate itself, most of the left of Labour parties have been ego trips for comedy Stalinists or the S"W"P, and the Best Democracy in the World is more or less structured to discourage incomers.

lol at u britain. we're fucked but at least we have a labour party to elect in next time.

but i mean we're fucked so no doubt 4 years in govt will no doubt see them eradicated into a central berth before long too.

If "the market will take care of it" actually worked we'd have such a party by now.

I meant a political party, not a big rave-up.

the market will take care of it is about as useful a philosophy as you'll hear, but in fairness nobody on this thread and very few people in public life in 2010 will even approach that sentiment.

eh fucks sake useless a philosophy.

Not in public, maybe.

ye shall know them by their works

I meant a political party, not a big rave-up.

Ah, wait, was Citizen Smith's Birthday Party a political party or a big rave-up?

You talk as if the way the world's economy is run is unchangeable, or natural, or inevitable. I don't buy any of that. Yes we live in a society that has evolved thru very complex cultural processes. Those processes are still in play. History is made by the accumulation of futile efforts to grab freedom, but I'm tempermentally opposed to collaboration more than futility

well that's a big'un, obviously, but i'd question whether it's the job of good politicians to be led by the societal mores prevalent or to lead society to different mores.

one's shit, the other's undemocratic elitism.

I was otm; turnout was less than 1%

and leads to labour constantly lying to a public it thinks it's smarter than- well, yes it probably is smarter than the public at large, but that doens't negate the damage done when the media exists as a predatory truthseeker missile.

it would be awesome if the media was a predatory truthseeker missile but it's one of those high-tech laser guided bombs that keeps "accidentally" destroying innocent afghan villagers or w/e

what aa gill does on his hols ain't my concern tbh

How about the ILX UK leftist conspiracy being down to a lot of us growing up in the 1980s through the mid '90s?

Also partly explains, to some of you youngsters out there, the visceral hatred of Tories, which might otherwise appear to be slightly irrational in light of New Labour

well, exactly.

also I'm convinced Cameron thinks the North is the little place his wife owns

I'm joining the neo-crusties. Peace out.

Now peace off

^ first recorded use of this joke since 1969

I'm sure the two ronnies kept than one on life support well into the 80s.

good news, everyone:

BROWN'S MARXIST VISION FOR BRITAIN HAS COME TO PASS

By Leo McKinstry Have your say(2)

THE class war is over. The Marxists won. After 13 years of Labour rule, Britain has been turned into a fully fledged socialist nation, governed by a vast, authoritarian state bureaucracy.

http://www.express.co.uk/ourcomments/view/165280

LOL McKinstry

Brilliant news!

Now what?

Sign on?

State withers away. We live in comity. Bish bosh. Job done.

Real actual loud LOLs at that McKinstry mentalness.

xpost hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ncJx_AGA1hk/SHjTe9rR4YI/AAAAAAAAANw/qDcfh_Le2tM/s400/john_lennon_imagine-FrontBlog.jpg
State withers away. We live in comity. Bish bosh. Job done. (tedious piano trudge)

anyone who considers themselves to be even centre-left these days can be anything other than furious at this government

This says it all really. But I'm probably still going to vote Labour, purely out of "lesser of 2 evils". Mind you where I live I don't think it's particularly relevant if I vote or not. Although I will anyway.

Labour sorta the lesser of 3 evils tbh

there aren't alternatives to 2 evils? what a shitty country.

only lolternatives

I did the lolternative last time.

Beware the lolternative.

How many of you put "vulcan" on their Religion census forms?

oh hang on, it was "Klingon" wasn't it?

I admit I did put "Jedi" last time. Sorry.

Jedi

whatever.

Clearly Cameron

Clegg’s Climb

Brown’s Battle

Ugh, thank God I don't have to vote for any of these

What would the following parties' cocktail be?

Sinn Fein
Green
Scottish National Party
UK Independence Party
Social Democratic and Labour Party
Respect
Plaid Cymru
Democratic Unionist Party
Ulster Unionist Party
British National Party

Oops, wrong thread. :(

Sinn fein- molotov

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u276/AxMan150/31707show.jpg

Oops, wrong thread. :(

what is the right thread?

The Ritz London's Rivoli Bar's 'General Election' cocktail specials