Cheating -- partner in crime to blame too?

I had an interesting argument today, on Facebook of all places, on a topic that people tend to get passionate about. The scenario described by the original poster was a woman who was single who had relations with a male who was happily spoken for, and knew it prior to cavorting with him. I must point out that the gender of the person really matters not here, it just seemed to be an IRL example that the poster was describing.

One gentleman adamantly argued that the woman in this scenario is not at any fault at all, that it is not her responsibility to respect the relationship between the cheating male and his woman, that it was solely the responsibility of the cheating male. I argued that while the cheating man in that scenario was clearly in the wrong, that in a situation where the woman knew that he was in a relationship, she should not have interfered with him, and that it was "wrong" to damage the relationship. I also chimed in with the opinion that in infidelity, often times it is the "single" person who initiates the romance.

I realize this is not a black and white issue in the least, but it had me thinking. I certainly didn't budge from my opinion, but if it were the other way around (the spoken-for person initiating the romance with the single person) I could see being more sympathetic. I tend to view cheaters and their accomplices as scum for the most part.

What are your opinions on the scenario above? And please, be civil to each other

both parties are disgusting savages imho

yeah i dont see how anyone could make an argument in favor of blamelessness of either party.

^^

everything said above, and wasn't this already a question elsewhere?

xpost I try to stay out of such arguments but given the likely age of said dude, I'm willing to bet his opinion may have been based on the fact that he's had relationships with "taken" women before.

Of course, his response was more eloquent than the next guy who said "face it, all women are whores". :/.

I don't think you're quite being judgemental enough. I tend to view both parties as a river of human effluent. 'Scum' is too good for them.

I'm having a hard time seeing how the single woman could be innocent in this, if she knows that the man is married, she's equally complicit. Assuming the woman didn't initiate the relationship (where she is obviously responsible), there's the old romanticized notion that the husband is dragging along the single woman with promises of leaving his wife - and I'm sure that still happens with naive women, and sometimes the men do follow through - but she's still a good deal accountable; how does she get off the hook for disrespecting the wife's marriage? I'm under the impression that single people are generally expected to honor other people's marriages - both cheating parties are bad, as everyone is saying.

some ppl think they don't owe strangers any moral consideration - had this argument w/a sociopath on another forum recently who took this tack vehemently. wtf does he care about the feelings of some third party dude if he's getting his rocks off, ws his stance o_O

where I come from we have a word for ppl like this tho: cunts

wtf does he care about the feelings of some third party dude if he's getting his rocks off

lol this is like the ne plus ultra of jerky behavior

just like anytime I talk about a girl I find interesting and someone will say "you should ask her out" and I'll go "well she has a boyfriend/she's married" and they'll go "so?"

o_O. alls I know is, dudes hit on my last g/f and asked her out behind my back, but if any one of them had succeeded, I'd have fucked him up until his face looked like Daffy Duck's with his beak turned backwards....

it's that aggressive streak that made them think she might say yes in the first place, in their heads in your head i mean.

and how badly would you have beaten your last g/f, just out of curiosity

lol xp

o_O. alls I know is, dudes hit on my last g/f and asked her out behind my back, but if any one of them had succeeded, I'd have fucked him up until his face looked like Daffy Duck's with his beak turned backwards....

Surprised you've never been tempted yourself, you must be a hit with the ladies.

seriously in that scenario you'd be wiser to reserve your ire for your g/f and break up with her, since she betrayed you. no beatings necessary. while the guys hitting on her were jerks, it was her complicity that really hurt you, not their attempts.

xp

Seems like a basic bro code thing that you shouldn't even hit on the same girl that your buddy's going after, let alone one that he's already dating. Don't know if I could dispute a justified punch in the face.

yeah i am all down with the tactics of non-violence and whatever, but punching a dude for knowingly sleeping with your S.O. hardly seems like some sort of barbaric insanity yall.

I dunno - it happened to me and no punching was involved. years later I am still friends with bro (shit, now our KIDS are friends) and bitch is to the curb.

lol this was a theoretical beatdown in a theoretical scenario and IRL I'd probably just do something chickenshit like put sugar in his gastank. my post was dripping with hyperbole. I haven't even as much as shoved someone in ten years :)

and yea of course I'd break up with her, I'm not one of those people that would blame it all on the other guy. course it doesn't matter now cuz I'm single anyway...

I realize this is not a black and white issue in the leas

u fuckin kiddin me?

well obviously I'm on YOUR side on this one...

The girl should just not go there, if she knows he's taken.

Someone just did this to me, and I think they are BOTH fucknuts.

I'm sorry Trayce :(

Obviously it seems worse behaviour on the part of the spoken-for guy, as he's betraying someone he supposedly loves whereas the other party is interfering with a stranger's life.

That's what I tell myself, anyway...

I am now an ecstatically engaged dude, so i feel ok about weighing in on this because i feel like i am distanced from whatever hurt occurred at the end of my last relationship (which in retrospect was pretty shitty at the end, whether i realized it or not), but in retrospect i still hold other dude as the more culpable offender. Also, in the interest of full disclosure re: earlier discussion of violent reaction, i made my position clear enough that he left the state, which was prob best for both of us. Not proud of that, but realistically, love mixed with betrayal brings out the worst in people.

I realize this is not a black and white issue in the least

u fuckin kiddin me?

― hobbes, Monday, April 26, 2010 7:28 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

Uhhhh it's actually not a black and white issue. This sort of shit is incredibly complicated, nobody is perfect and emotions are sometimes extremely unpredictable and uncontrollable. Unless you all are complete saints then you are v v harsh and prone to condemn ppl in situations when you may not know even a small portion of the whole story.

Aye, I'm sad to say E is right, as much as I'd like it to be otherwise :(

It is easy for me to be rabidly furious at both the girl who has basically come in and cut my lunch, AND my (now ex) partner of almost 3 years. He didnt say no, she (apparently) didnt care, I lost.

But then I think back a few years and realise I did exactly the same thing to someone else :/ So um. Yeah.

Karma is a bitch, yo.

I said what I did as someone who has both been cheated on and cheated on partners and can say that none of those situations were black and white. I also don't think that ppl are naturally monogamous. I think that monogamy is a choice and a very very difficult one at that. People are flawed and sometimes shit happens. Sometimes that shit can be worked through and sometimes it can't.

Yeah :( TBH in my case I wish my guy had come and spoken to me about it before this all blew up how it did (ie before he'd even met anyone else he had his eye on). We could have worked something more ... flexible out. But he isn't a talker.

TALK TO YOUR PARTNER. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TALK TO THEM I CANNOT STRESS HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS.

said move was prompted by phone conversation where i told him that the next time i saw him he was going to end up in the hospital and i was going to end up in jail, and i was dead serious*

*note - dude was my roommate/close friend during the tail end of this (2 months, jerk), and bailed on his rent and abandoned enough shit that it cost me $1000 to get rid of it by vanishing like a thief in the night the day before i got the news from my ex via voicemail. so yeah, no regrets really.

xxpost: ehhh all respect yall, but i think that the fact that we all might have been shitheads doesnt change the fact that uh we were shitheads? and yeah, if you are fairly active in this realm (ahem) the sad truth is that you are prob going to cheat on both sides, which sucks, but its true. i am def not pronouncing from on high on this issue. ive been on both sides of this, and i feel pretty fucking ashamed of that. getting totally pwned by it just makes that more acute.

like tons of xposts and whatever i cant keep count at this point

xpost again: yeah, ENBB, i see where youre coming from there (obv), but issues of monogamy dont remove the answer to the original question, which is yes, if you engage in cheating on either side, yer a dick. i have been a dick several times. doesnt make it more right.

No, of course it doesn't but I guess that in general I think ppl are prone to be dicks.

I mean I won't get too into personal stories here so I'll share one of a friend who had been with her partner for 10 years and married for 2. The marriage was not happy and she met someone at work who made her happy. They didn't actually cheat but did ~emotionally~ and maybe kissed once. She left her husband and has now been with the other dude for three years and is completely happy. Did she go about it the right way? No, of course not. Was it a shitty thing to do? Yes, of course it was but she was miserable and would have made her husband miserable in the long run had she stayed so in some ways what happened was for the best.

Former husband also in a great relationship now btw.

See E, my ex could perhaps say exactly the same thing about why he just did what he did.

Problem is I had no idea anything was wrong :( We were happy!

Aaand i shd stop talking about my personal life on a public thread now heh ooops.

I don't know. I am not saying that cheating is OK. I've just noticed that ppl on ILX seem v v quick to judge and that ime these things are often extremely complex. I mean, when I was in college I dated someone for 4 years. I had transferred schools and was booked on a train to go visit my best friend at the old school the next day when I found out one night that she'd hooked up with my boyfriend on numerous occasions. I freaked out and drank myself into a stupor but got on that train the next morning and rode 7 hours to visit her. We spoke about it for about 2 hours and that was pretty much that. They were assholes for making out but sometimes ppl are assholes and we were young and drunk and in the end her friendship and his love meant more to me than a couple of dumb french kisses and boobie touches. Maybe I was dumb for thinking that way but it made sense at the time.

x-post - Yeah Trayce, I know and maybe that's why the importance of communication is a whole other issue entirely. I mean in regards to the couple I was talking about before, the dude was totally blindsided. Apparently the wife had been miserable for a cpl years but if you talk to him - it came out of left field. Sigh. I don't know. I don't claim to have any answers at all. I just think it's important to realize that ppl are fallible beings and that love/lust are extremely powerful emotions and that sometimes ppl get hurt and . . . i don't know. Btw Trayce I'm so sorry you're going through what you are and I know it's extremely painful. Not, by any means, trying to make light of that. hugs.

drunken french kisses are not some dude penetrating your wife iirc

Yeah I dont ascribe to the "if they cheat on you even once BAM GAME OVER NO RETURN". I'm willing to forgive, as long as trust or at least communication and openness can be worked on.

I am, alas, an intensely jealous person sometimes though.

Whiney: ah funny you say that I was also about to say "and ppl define cheating in diff ways".

IMO even sexyflirting online with someone is cheating, if you are doing it with intent/your heart in it.

A drunk kiss that *honestly meant nothing and will continue not to* is a greyer area - its still shitty tho.

yeah but as a dude who has been a cheater (jerk), and was never (afaik, probably lucky ignorance) on the other end of that until the aforementioned (prob well deserved) comeuppance, im not really willing to justify my shitty behaviour because the feeling on the other end is pretty awful. kind of glad that i got that sort of wake up call, because at this point i understand that the step before cheating is owning up to being unhappy with what you have, which might suck in the short run, but is better than creating more misery for the person you are with.

uh prob many xposts there but i am tired

drunken french kisses are not some dude penetrating your wife iirc

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, April 27, 2010 2:41 AM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark

No, of course not but when it actually comes down to it one can lead to the other quite quickly and they aren't all that much different in the end.

You can't just sit there and do nothing but stew when you find out you've been played. Person who cheats with your partner is not entitled to any courtesy; it's very rare for a third party to be unaware that they are a third party (and it is much easier to be mean to that person than it is to be mean to your misbehaving partner). I've run a mile from attached men who put moves on me precisely because I *never* want to be that person and I'm very much inclined to believe that anyone who is attracted to that scenario is deluded and fucked-up, mainly because they've given permission for their new partner to cheat on them in the exact same manner (which is what usually happens).

Back in the days before internet dating etc, there was a woman who was very interested in my then-boyfriend. Nothing happened between them, but not for want of trying on her part. My revenge was well-crafted: I signed her up for Dateline (British 'computerised matchmaking' of the '80s/'90s) and the contact number I gave for her went straight to her very gossipy assistant, who screamed rather than screened the call. To get the same effect today you'd have to ship a large dildo to your rival's workplace with a 'thought you might need this' note of some kind.

drunken french kisses are not some dude penetrating your wife iirc

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, April 27, 2010 2:41 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

also, by that i mean al shipley taking your wife back for a night of tender lovemaking to baltimore club mixtapes

it's very rare for a third party to be unaware that they are a third party (and it is much easier to be mean to that person than it is to be mean to your misbehaving partner).

I am SO RELEIVED to read another female say this. Most of my friends have been saying "don't be so hard on E, its not like this is her fault, she was single, and so is he now, so you know". HE IS SINGLE BECAUSE YOU SNOGGED HIM, MADE HIM FEEL GREAT AND HE LEFT ME FOR YOU. JUST SAY NO.

lollllllll

OMG SORRY THAT WAS A X-POST

Hahaha its ok :)

btw, part of my take on this is that however bad i may have been during lust/emotodraw/whatever decision making, i can be a paragon of virtue when it comes to the fact that i have never ever ever pursued an involved woman. and as established, i'm a dick when it comes to this sort of stuff, but that is a bridge too far.

And T I'm not trying to excuse her actions at all but, as you said, you know what it's like to be on the other side and sometimes if the emotions are there and the person says the right things, you aren't always thinking about what the other person involved might feel. It's totally shitty but it's also life.

Also as someone who has worked in sexual health I firmly believe that most ppl cheat. Statistics put it at like 50% but that's what ppl answer when asked which is inherently flawed because ppl won't always answer truthfully.

BTW I am totally playing devil's advocate here. I do believe it's possible to be completely monogamous for years but I also think that it's very difficult and, in most situations, a rare occurrence.

Trayce, your friends must think being single is some kind of mysterious ailment that robs you of both your agency and the obligation to respect other women. I got in a huge internet fight about this subject once, because I suggested a woman who *admitted* she got off on being the third party in some guy's life was no better than a spunkbucket.

kinda feeling like mr philosophy degree here, but the actuality of frequency of cheating has like nothing to do with the morality of cheating. even less so when we are talking about the 3rd party immunity scenario.

Man, I hope you don't think I'm saying that ppl aren't obligated to exhibit some self-control because that's not what I'm getting at. I'm just saying that occasionally thing happen that are beyond self control and ppls heats get broken and it really sucks but that's what happens because we're fallible being and prone to some impulses beyond our control.

I should shut up. It's just that I've been reading these cheating threads and everyone is all "THESE PPL ARE ALL ASSHOLES" and I'm not sure that that is a fair statement of character in all cases.

~morality~

Mr. Philosophy degree that could be another thread entirely.

well yeah, but that is what this whole thread is about, right? on a base level, the question is whther a third party is RONG if they engage in this , which in almost every moral code = yes? not arguing that it doesnt happen, frequently, but its still uh, wrong.

OK yes, it is wrong. I guess I would just say that ppl do a lot of things thtat are wrong. I don't know. I WASN'T A PHILOSOPHY MJR LEAVE ME ALONE!!! ;p Could I also be using my argument justify some actions? Of course. However, I think I'm a pretty OK person and yet I know that I haven't always behaved what others would consider "perfectly".

Yeah for my part I should point out that in most cases I dont believe people set out to do this on purpose and break hearts on purpose! I've only known one person who *was* like that, and he was very abusive in a lot of other ways too, but he was a sociopath.

Mostimes, shit happens.

to be clear as a dude who has uh "dated" a lot of people (braggin 1990-2009), and has had way more moments of infidelity than i would like to admit, im not saying that we all need to live in a SHADOW OF SHAME, but i think that we can all feel ok about ourselves while still knowing that when we cheat, we are dicks. helping other people along with cheating = still a dick, imo. sometimes more so.

OK yes

btw can I just say

PUPPY IS RESTING HIS HEAD ON SIDE OF LAPTOP AND MY <3 MIGHT EXPLODE.

puppies never cheat

my little big buddy suffered through his getting his first gentle leader experience this evening. he did not like it.

now he is loving on me, so all is ok.

dogs are the best people, and all that.

oh wait what were we talking about?

OMG they are so great. They love you no matter what. I am sad though because I have to chop off his balls soon.

My cat was most unimpressed when I had her ladybits removed.

henry has at least 1 year left w/ his balls (big dog gets to keep them until growing is over). unless he gets to be a breeder, in which case all hope is lost.

(dogball xposts) True, but once they know there's someone else involved their behaviour ceases to become an accident of circumstance.

I'm probably very hardline on this due to issues with a former 'best friend' who basically hit on *all* the partners I'd had in my life to that point, until she found the needledick in the haystack who was willing to fuck her (he thought he was having a magnificent time until he realized he was maybe sixth on her list). She is now making a career for herself as a very vocal feminist, but it's nice to see she compartmentalizes her work and her personal life so well.

dude this little pug is perfect looking - he could be a breeder. idk - i feel bad taking them off but that's what you're supposed to do, right?

so ahhh cheating, eh? ;p

said move was prompted by phone conversation where i told him that the next time i saw him he was going to end up in the hospital and i was going to end up in jail, and i was dead serious*

don henley was schemin on yr ex? at least he got a song out of it

huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody's_Going_to_Emergency,_Somebody's_Going_to_Jail

i feel bad taking them off but that's what you're supposed to do, right?

you've inadvertently stumbled on the solution for all the pissin and moanin that's going on itt!

anyway from another perspective I felt relieved when I found out that my ex was going out on paid-for dates with guys as it gave me a way out. I'm pretty sure she wasn't actually snogging any of them but it still let me take the moral highground (which I actually do feel guilty for doing).

Unless you all are complete saints then you are v v harsh and prone to condemn ppl in situations when you may not know even a small portion of the whole story.

this is basically my story

The real blame is with the cheater, in the sense that the cheated-on partner needs to direct their anger at their own spouse and not the "temptress" (if the "other woman" is a woman). But I can't help feeling like I could really lose respect for anyone who would BE the third party with a married person -- indicates a character deficiency, imo. So sue me, I'm judgmental.

I say this because I have sort of BEEN the third person, not seriously but emotional closeness is sort of cheating too...more of a grey area, yes, but if it would hurt the unknowing spouse, and their partner KNOWS that it would, and does it anyway, I think there's culpability.

But I'm ashamed that I ever allowed myself to do that, and I knew I was being weak and building myself up at others' expense. Once you're an adult, you're supposed to have had some experience at stuff like this, and therefore to know better.

if there is a car wreck, who is at fault? the first person, or the other person?

if two people invent cold fusion, which one deserves credit? new answers please

relationships are really complicated and human beings are awful to themselves and to others

Acknowledging this sad truth would make this thread less interesting though.

my spouse has been traveling for work almost 100% of the last year. we have a great relationship and I had been counting the days until this work contract was over and we would be together again...then i met someone at a party, had a really nice time and couldn't stop thinking about them. ran into them again a week later, turns out the feeling was mutual and we fucked. i'm still thinking about the other person constantly, and having panic attacks about my next move. my spouse has done nothing to deserve this and the last thing i want to do is hurt them.

i've had a few friends that i was pretty harsh to when i found out that they left their spouses for other people. thought i was too good and my relationship too solid to fall into that. i think a lot of people think cheating is a very deliberate thing, but i wasn't looking to cheat. i just wish i knew what to do next.

all this being said, i think i am more to blame than my new partner.

PUPPY IS RESTING HIS HEAD ON SIDE OF LAPTOP AND MY <3 MIGHT EXPLODE.

― Aqua Backrat (ENBB), Tuesday, April 27, 2010 3:16 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

why arent you putting sunglasses on him and sending pictures to me?!

But I can't help feeling like I could really lose respect for anyone who would BE the third party with a married person -- indicates a character deficiency, imo

Wouldn't go that far, personally, although if you regularly seek out married (or attached) people or actively pursue someone fully versed in their attachment then there's something wrong somewhere.

But really, all politics is local and sometimes shit does just happen.

the one who's at fault is... the one who's at fault.

think about it.

dude

If the two committed partners examine either one's reasons for cheating, they might decide that the blame is shared b/c of conditions in the relationship that either/both have allowed to develop; I'm not blind to the fact that the cheating partner might NOT deserve all the blame if circumstances are extremely strained.

But from an outside view the one that took action is more to blame, agreed on that.

actually, the third party is always blameless in this circumstance: if the cheater is a beautiful woman who is about to marry a generic upper-middle-class cocksure jerk in a romantic comedy featuring owen wilson and/or ben stiller

Beta-male fantasy not being massaged in those comedies at all, no sir.

when did ppl start calling the prostate the "beta-male fantasy"

this exact moment

ok cool

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ^^^he's here all week!

It doesn't matter if the third person is a stranger. The one in the relationship who cheated is at fault definitely but why would the 3rd party need to concern themselves with specifics when all they want is some lovin? Sometimes the disgusting savage cheater is cool letting the 3rd person believe they are free. Is that the 3rd person's fault? I think not.

I walked in on my ex doing it with someone else while we were still together and I really did not care at all what happened to the girl, who she was etc. All I wanted was to never see the bf again and that has worked out fine for me. The beef was with the bf because the bf and I were supposed to be in a committed relationship. I had no connection to the girl and she had no connection to me.

If I knew her? oooooooo different story (probably not that different, I'm not too violent or angry).

why would the 3rd party need to concern themselves with specifics when all they want is some lovin?

yeah yeah relationships r complicated n shit, but this is kinda sociopathic

ENBB OTM, totally rolling my eyes at some of the absolute moral judgements being made here. Sometimes the person who's being cheated on is being cheated on because they're a complete dick to their partner. Sometimes they're a complete innocent. There's a world of grey in there.

i dunno matt, "details" is not the same thing as "grey"

peacocks' post raises an interesting point: there can be diff between who is "to blame" and who one party actually feels like blaming (though that first category is entirely compromised too, by the sympathies of the parties' friends/greek chorus etc)

sociopathic? haha, maybe. But some people are like that. What good does it do me to get stressed over it, is what I'm saying. The responsibility lies with the people in the relationship. I'm also talking about random hook ups at bars and stuff. I am not talking about friends or acquaintences who are aware of the status of the individual and actively seek out romantic situations with that person.

Can I point out that these absolute moral judgments are being made in the context of a specific scenario, namely:

The scenario described by the original poster was a woman who was single who had relations with a male who was happily spoken for, and knew it prior to cavorting with him. I must point out that the gender of the person really matters not here, it just seemed to be an IRL example that the poster was describing.

Bringing "but what if the person getting cheated on is a tool" to the table kind is kind of an obtuse extrapolation here, given what we know of the situation being commented on; the assumption is that the person getting cheated on isn't a tool, otherwise the person who did the cheating wouldn't be "happily spoken for".

peacocks' post raises an interesting point: there can be diff between who is "to blame" and who one party actually feels like blaming (though that first category is entirely compromised too, by the sympathies of the parties' friends/greek chorus etc)

the only thing that matters is the opinion and feelings of the party being cheated. People in relationships define what is ok and what is not within that relationship. This does not include crazy stuff like physical abuse or controlling situations, those are never ok.

"controlling situations" covers a fair range of human behaviour

Kind of depends on how much the 3rd party knows about the relationship - if they're a stranger the guy might have said they were about to separate, it was a loveless marriage, whatever. Yeah they should probably take that with a pinch of salt but if the cheater is misrepresenting his situation then the blame would lie more with him.
If it's a friend of the couple though, that's v scummy.

getting involved with someone who is in the middle of some other situation is just bad policy. how is this not perfectly clear.

I met my current bf while he was still unhappily married. He was honest and told me up front, and I promptly ignored his invitations to call him, and never responded to the one msg he sent me after that.

We re-met two years later when we were both free, and I'm glad it happened this way. I knew I didn't want to bear any culpability for ending a marriage, even if it was already in flames and even if he was being the honorable partner, or any other possible conditions. Call me old-fashioned (altho if that were true, I wouldn't be dating/potentially marrying a divorced person!) but that was too morally questionable to me -- plus who wants a partner who's fleeing from something worse? I'm glad he came back to me with all his faculties and his feelings being his own and not belonging to any other woman.

i think we can all agree that people should be excellent to each other

goole otm

if the cheater is a beautiful woman who is about to marry a generic upper-middle-class cocksure jerk in a romantic comedy featuring owen wilson and/or ben stiller

in this case the cheater is even more stupid than usual tbh

obv enbb way otm upthread - things are complex, end - but from the specific perspective of the one being cheated on, it comes off as a bit "avoiding the issue" if they direct their anger at the 3rd party. the 3rd party may or may not have been a dick, but the cheater was a dick to you: look to that first.

honestly i think the cheater is only really being a dick to YOU if they fess up to you about it

:o

or they give you an STD

or a bastard child

or while you're blowing them they say "you could take a few tips from cheryl imo"

I think that counts as "fessing up"

and messing up

or a bastard child

This just made me choke on my tea and cough for almost a minute, and it's not even that funny. Thanks, Dan.

i think we can all agree that people should be excellent to each other

no, I disagree; people should stab each other with guns

metaphorically

what? sorry i wasn't paying attention, too busy paying it forward tbh

We re-met two years later when we were both free, and I'm glad it happened this way. I knew I didn't want to bear any culpability for ending a marriage, even if it was already in flames and even if he was being the honorable partner, or any other possible conditions.

See, this is what I wish my guy had done. We'd spoken a little while back about his.. well, not feeling so comfy with settling down at this point in his life (he's 26, but apparently thats still "a kid", fffff i dunno and you'd think 2 years living together you'd settle into it! anyway). When he met Other Person who I do actually know and is good friends with a lot of my friends (which is making all this INCREDIBLY TOXIC), they should have both just gone "ok hands off FOR NOW" - he sorts out his shit with me, then whatever.

Dumping me, waiting ONE DAY til I AM INTERSTATE then proceeding is NOT COOL.

OK got that off my chest, nuff said.

i think we can all agree that people should be excellent to each other

Let us heed the words of Wyld Stallyns

the whole 'but if the person who cheated is in relationship with someone who is awful to them' only holds so much water: if you don't like the relationship you're in and you want to pursue another, why wouldn't you end the current relationship first?

jjjjusten v v otm in this thread.

the other thing too is that the cheating partner is the only one who knows both sides of the story - i've known of several friends who've been duped by the whole 'but i get treated so badly at home' thing, so that the partner in crime feels bad for them and wants to rescue them from their supposedly horrible situation.

yeah, this can be very complicated and i'm sympathetic but ultimately the unhappy person in a relationship who is tempted to stray should end the relationship before hooking up with the third party. if the person you are about to cheat on ever meant anything to you, you owe them that much, even if they have been a less-than-great partner.

Yeah, I mean there is ZERO a person can do if they meet someone new and that person indicates theyre single, but are lying about it. Thank fuck that's never happened to me. But if I met someone who said "well I am with X but things are bad/on the way out/we're separated" I'd just back off. I have enough drama in my life already, who needs that shit.

This is where dating ppl ive been friends with a long time has been helpful - I know what their life situ is!

The thought of now meeting and dating strangers makes me feel ill.

of course, a cheater often does not want to end their current relationship, not completely, but not dealing with the issues in the long-term relationship and just letting the infidelity play out is selfish and immature.

whoa, this like...exploded. but I like the viewpoints being discussed.

Never did find out what prompted the friend to post that (I'm guessing one of her friends had it happen to her), but ya kinda have to think to yourself that knowingly hooking up with a taken person is likely going to lead you to get your ass beat months down the line, and may sabotage someone elses relationship beyond repair. and well if you have no conscience, well then think about the assbeating.

I say this as someone who has a hard time resisting temptation, but I know in my last relationship, when things were good, yea I saw other attractive women and yea sometimes I got attention from them, but I was only interested in my girl. there wasn't even any "grass is greener" moments. which is why it sucks that it went south :/.

also Trayce, re: communication....co-signed. I say this as a guy who didn't do a great job of it in my last relationship, but I was the one who got blindsided with the breakup. It sucks to be broken up with when you see it coming, but it's worse when it comes when you think things are dandy.

I have enough drama in my life already, who needs that shit.

haha fidelity through laziness!

amen to that!

both parties are disgusting savages imho

― the sound of a norwegian guy being wrong (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, April 26, 2010 10:48 PM (10 months ago) Bookmark

ugh

ehhh "disgusting savages" is kind of pushing it
I mean people have affairs *all the time*. it sucks but what are you going to do?

not have affairs

lol

that type of response will never not be funny

frogbs otm

going into life automatically means that sometimes terrible things are going to happen to you, and you are going to sometimes end up doing terrible things to others. obv that fact doesn't give one a free pass to shit all over people, but i think esp. in the realm of relationships, where even the wisest among us seem to be pretty clumsy and encounter some serious stumbling blocks now and again, i think it's difficult to condemn people for being...human. and confused.

you can't get out of life without causing pain and grief to people and fucking up hugely sometimes. it's just not possible.

In that case, better to do it by accident rather than... knowingly. Big moral difference there.

xp - it's pretty easy to condemn them when you're the one who got fucked over!

yeah I mean there was this really interesting letter I read from an NBA player (who was anonymous, obviously), explaining that the temptation to cheat is so great that it's nearly impossible to resist. a lot of people will say they would never do it and may honestly believe that in their heart, but I would think they might change their mind if they had supermodel types throwing themselves at them on a consistant basis. Obviously that's an extreme example but I would think those who take the moral high road on this - like "I'm happily married and very satisfied, and if you're not then you need to work on your marriage, cheaters are disgusting, etc." probably have never really experienced the temptations. like, sure, you don't go to seek it out, but how many times have you turned out other women/men who are willing to start something regardless of your status and keep it discreet??

the person who's single is not as bad...especially if they don't know the significant other.

so it's okay to knowingly fuck up the life of someone you don't know?

not always that simple, the person could be a total asshole, or cheating themselves.

who says you're fucking it up?

i think the key, in the case that the temptation is "irresistible" and something you're repeatedly exposed to (or know in general about yourself) then maybe monogamous relationships aren't for you and you should be up-front with your partner about that. it's not that hard to do the right thing here.

xp - the key word is "cheating" - it's a betrayal of trust and a demonstration of a lack of respect.

yeah I mean there was this really interesting letter I read from an NBA player (who was anonymous, obviously), explaining that the temptation to cheat is so great that it's nearly impossible to resist.

Roger Daltrey: "We lived together for four years before Heather decided that she'd like to have children. I wanted to do the right thing again by marrying her, but at the same time I still felt that I had so much more living to do. So I was honest and said, 'Look, I'm in a rock band, I've got loads of other girlfriends and I'm not going to give any of them up. If you can put up with that, I'll happily get married.' Incredibly, she said yes." They've been married for 40 years.

in some relationships there's already no trust or respect, or none left

"I'm happily married and very satisfied, and if you're not then you need to work on your marriage"

I'm not saying this hypothetical person needs to work on their marriage, I'm saying they need to work on THEMSELVES.

^^^this

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxpostsIn that case, better to do it by accident rather than... knowingly. Big moral difference there.

i agree

xp - it's pretty easy to condemn them when you're the one who got fucked over!

yeah, i don't mean that i think people shouldn't be called out for it or the injured party(s) shouldn't complain or whatever.

i am just speaking from having been on both sides of the proverbial coin. it sucks all the way around, to be sure..but my point in part is that i think even people with the best of intentions sometimes fuck up all around in spite of themselves, and even the most idyllic-seeming of relationships sometimes implode, almost without warning. so i was trying to second frogbs's comment. unless one is in a given relationship, it's difficult to fully appreciate the dynamics that are going on, and maybe too easy to pass judgment on people for not ending the relationship legalistically first, or however decent people are supposed to go about things...

and also it's cliche and all, but, it's life. everyone is flawed.

dell otm and I think what he said is pretty similar to what I tired to say when this thread happened last year

why the revive shakes? just curious.

i am just speaking from having been on both sides of the proverbial coin. it sucks all the way around,

same here! And I think it's perfectly okay to pass judgment and condemn people whose actions make your life suck.

I would think they might change their mind if they had supermodel types throwing themselves at them on a consistant basis.

may very well be completely accurate! But a person who knows that cheating is a temptation that is out there and knows that they need to keep their vow not to do it better be examining his or her situation on the reg and maybe deciding that they shouldn't BE around supermodel types if that's what it takes.

People don't NOT cheat because it's easy to be good and honest and stuff. They they think about it beforehand to make the actual saying-no part easier or less frequent.

if you're willing to ruin your life and the lives of others because temptation is "irresistable" = you meet the dictionary definition of a disgusting savage. civilization is about social cohesion, ie understanding and respecting the rights of others and acknowledging your commonality, and about developing institutions that stand the test of time. But if you are a slave to your physical desires to the extent that you have no foresight or empathy, you are a disgusting savage.

xp

why the revive shakes? just curious.

trials and tribulations of a friend who shall remain nameless kinda weighing on my mind and making me angry

Fair enough. Figured something like that.

People don't NOT cheat because it's easy to be good and honest and stuff. They they think about it beforehand to make the actual saying-no part easier or less frequent.

^^^this

i think the key, in the case that the temptation is "irresistible" and something you're repeatedly exposed to (or know in general about yourself) then maybe monogamous relationships aren't for you and you should be up-front with your partner about that. it's not that hard to do the right thing here.

I agree, but nothing is really cut and dry. I had a friend who got married young, had two kids, and kept in good shape, while his wife gained like 80 pounds and lost pretty much all interest in sex..."twice a year, maybe" is what he told me. Women were chasing him all the time so really I don't blame him one bit for acting on it (which he did), of course he wanted to keep his family together and do right by his kids so he didn't tell anyone (they divorced a few years ago so maybe she finally found out)...all that said, yes this guy is definitely being shady but in a way I really couldn't blame him for what he did. If that makes me a shitty person so be it.

yeah, that is kind of shitty

I haven't been through it myself, but I've been close to people who have and my feeling is if you're seeing temptation at every corner then get out of the relationship you're in instead of running around on the person you're with thinking they won't find out. Doing it and then apologising is still shitty, at least in my mind.

but I'm pretty black and white on that, I understand there's grey. I don't say any of this passing judgement on people who've been in that situation, on cheaters or cheatees or whatever, I'm not calling anyone out as a disgusting savage...that's just where I sit on the matter.

on the one hand it's true that I do not have supermodels throwing themselves at me. on the rare occasion that I have been hit on over the course of my current relationship/marriage I've been more surprised than anything else. But I find the very idea of completely fucking over my wife and ruining my life (divorce, moving out, splitting custody, etc.) just for the sake of some blowjobs or whatever completely bizarre. like, it's just blowjobs, they aren't THAT important. it seems totally childish/juvenile to value sex that highly to me. Like if you need that much casual sex that badly, you have other, probably fairly deep-rooted problems (about self-esteem, about addictive behavior, whatever)

xp

xp - how well did you know his wife?

But if you are a slave to your physical desires to the extent that you have no foresight or empathy, you are a disgusting savage.

well to be fair i think that hugely ignores the fact that so many people "cheat" for reasons that are not primarily based on physical desire?

I had a friend who got married young, had two kids, and kept in good shape, while his wife gained like 80 pounds and lost pretty much all interest in sex..."

moral of the story: don't marry young

xp - how well did you know his wife?

up to now I would've thought pretty well, friends for 15+ years, I was at their wedding, our kids play together, etc. after this... man, I just don't know.

well, there has to be some physical desire involved, otherwise the act wouldn't take place

well to be fair i think that hugely ignores the fact that so many people "cheat" for reasons that are not primarily based on physical desire?

well yeah I was just speaking to the "supermodels are throwing themselves at me!" scenario

xp - oh, that question was for frogbs!

lol sorry

I've said too much!

Yeah, I mean, that's true but conversations like this always seem so pointless because I think there are huge difference in regards to motivations and actions in each situation. Like are we talking about people who carry on years long affairs completely behind their otherwise happy partner's back or someone who meets someone else and truly falls in love unexpectedly before ending their current situation or someone taking what started as innocent flirting just that much to far? To me these are all vastly different scenarios which is one of the reasons I think making blanket statements and condemnations against then people involved is so tricky. In an ideal world made up of perfect people then I think what SMC is saying would be OTM but the world is nowhere near ideal and most people I've come across are pretty far from perfect.

want me to modzap that response shakey?

well to be fair i think that hugely ignores the fact that so many people "cheat" for reasons that are not primarily based on physical desire?

Agreed, dell. What I thought but didn't post because it was tl;dr is that anyone who's THAT tempted to cheat needs to think honestly about what desire/weakness is being fulfilled by the attention from another person and/or the sex itself. Maybe there's a real void in their lives that needs to be filled and they need to be honest w their partner about how to fill it, or maybe the affair satisfies a need for attention or excitement or reassurance or some other weakness/vice that maybe is better off being battled as a separate issue because it's bad for them in other ways, too...

oh the first part of that was a x-post

also "just blowjobs, they aren't THAT important" is sort of ignoring the fact that for a lot of people who do find themselves in any one of the above situations, it's about a lot more than just sex

no, that actually is a good example of what i was thinking -- the closer you are to the relationship (with the closest being actual one of the people involved), the more horrible it generally feels. The further removed you are, it is easier to say "people are flawed. oh well." rather than "disgusting savages!"

want me to modzap that response shakey?

eh nah, doesn't matter I imagine

due to sheer ignorance, I was once "the other guy." once I figured it out I was pretty pissed and broke it off immediately. we only hung out for a few weeks while her bf (whom i never met) was traveling. it sucked bc I liked her a lot and was v attracted to her, but I was young, had an active social life and figured I had other stuff to do. now that I'm boring and old I wonder if i might be a little more hesitant to end it so self-righteously and abruptly :-/

if you're willing to ruin your life and the lives of others

this is really overstating it; my parents divorced when I was 5 and it sucked but I think I lived a pretty normal childhood (btw the divorce had nothing to do with cheating). my mom has been cheated on twice by different men she's been with and obviously she was hurt by it but now she's remarried and happier than ever. moving out and splitting custody sucks too but it happens to a ton of people like, all the time. most of 'em seem to do fine.

(as opposed to trying to officially woo her away or w/e)

like, it's just blowjobs, they aren't THAT important. it seems totally childish/juvenile to value sex that highly to me.

I don't know if you've heard but sex is pretty much the basis of our society; obviously if you're married your view changes but think of what our world would be like if sexual attraction didn't exist and people only did it for procreation.

geez, i meet far too many guys that seem to have problems with women due to their parents' divorce issues.

...or their divorce issues.

xp - oh, that question was for frogbs!

Not too well, she didn't really like me or any of his friends, the impression I got from her is that she wasn't very social or active.

do you think that made it easier for you to feel like your friend was blameless?

I agree, but nothing is really cut and dry. I had a friend who got married young, had two kids, and kept in good shape, while his wife gained like 80 pounds and lost pretty much all interest in sex..."twice a year, maybe" is what he told me. Women were chasing him all the time so really I don't blame him one bit for acting on it (which he did), of course he wanted to keep his family together and do right by his kids so he didn't tell anyone (they divorced a few years ago so maybe she finally found out)...all that said, yes this guy is definitely being shady but in a way I really couldn't blame him for what he did. If that makes me a shitty person so be it.

yeah i understand this. i certainly have compassion for people in confusing and fucked up situations, while still holding myself and others accountable for doing the right thing. i dont think these two positions are totally incompatible.

this is really overstating it

nah. If I cheated on my wife I would be looking at divorce, finding a new home, a complete revision of my lifestyle, significantly dimmed financial prospects, raising a child under difficult circumstances, middle aged loneliness, a ton of grief from my friends and family, potentially a shortened life-span, etc. compared to what my life is now I think this counts as "ruined". and for what? some orgasms? seems stupid. no, it's worse than that, it seems self-destructive.

xp

i mean, my life is much improved after breaking up with the bf that cheated on me, but that doesn't mean I should thank him and the ho-bag he was fucking behind my back.

all this stuff about desire, needs, civilization, etc, gives me a good excuse to post this really great profile & critique of dan savage that just ran in the washington monthly

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2011/1103.dueholm.html

xp I don't think he was blameless, obviously I know he was doing the wrong thing, my point is that I didn't really look down on him for that because I honestly believe that most guys in that situation would probably do exactly the same thing.

anyone who's THAT tempted to cheat needs to think honestly about what desire/weakness is being fulfilled by the attention from another person and/or the sex itself. Maybe there's a real void in their lives that needs to be filled and they need to be honest w their partner about how to fill it, or maybe the affair satisfies a need for attention or excitement or reassurance or some other weakness/vice that maybe is better off being battled as a separate issue because it's bad for them in other ways, too...

yah, well said

also, i should maybe add that i wasn't thinking of marriages, children, when i was posting up there, b/c oh gosh that is sort of a whole 'nuther thing.

and some of this talk is also maybe ignoring how it is more upsetting when stuff involves an emotional relationship as opposed to just some one night stand sort of incident.

ugh. anyway my advice is avoid relationships at all costs. at all costs... don't even make conversation with someone while in line at the bank.

xp I like to think you're doing "most guys" a disservice. It helps me have hope for humanity.

written by a lutheran pastor, no less!

savage's ethics have worked themselves around to a moral position in favor of cheating in a lot of circumstances. like, i can see the logic of frogbs' friend cheating, i can't blame him too much, if the description of that marriage is accurate.

what's the moral calculus between outright telling your wife you think she is fat and boring now, and going off to fuck someone else secretly? i guess the latter IS worse, but probably doesn't feel that way in the moment. people can go a long time without saying what they really think. BOTH courses of action threaten the safety of one's kids, which is a whole other gamble no matter what you do about your own desires...

xps

nah. If I cheated on my wife I would be looking at divorce, finding a new home, a complete revision of my lifestyle, significantly dimmed financial prospects, raising a child under difficult circumstances, middle aged loneliness, a ton of grief from my friends and family, potentially a shortened life-span, etc. compared to what my life is now I think this counts as "ruined". and for what? some orgasms? seems stupid. no, it's worse than that, it seems self-destructive.

yeah but most people who cheat think they won't get caught, in which case the consequence is basically nothing. also it's not like every marriage or relationship is in your situation. obviously you have a lot more incentives not to cheat. I'm kind of sensing that you don't really understand why people do it. It's not just for "some orgasms", there's a lot more to it

sometimes it involves candy

xps - Sadly, I don't think he is.

Goole that article was sort of great. I haven't read anything he's written in years but never really liked Savage at all.

So two of my co-workers who I'm both friends with (but much closer to the girl) have been hanging out and have slept together a couple times. The girl has a live in boyfriend who she's miserable with. The guy is single. Do I think the fact that she's repeatedly hooked up with this other dude and then gone home to her bf is wrong? Yes. Have I told her that I think so and that she either needs to end it with the co-worker ASAP or break up with the boyfriend and move out? Yes. Do I think she's a disgusting savage? No. I think she's a genuinely good person who fucked up and is now more confused then she was at the start. Am I going to stop being her friend because I think what's she's doing is wrong? No. It's a shitty situation for all people involved but I don't think me being as asshole to her about it is going to help at all.

xp - i don't think that's true about thinking they won't get caught, they just avoid thinking about what will happen when they do get caught.

what is worse cheating or war

i resented my father for years for cheating on my mother, but sitting down with him one day not too long ago i realized he had his legitimate reasons for doing so, my parents had been unhappy for a long time with one another...he met someone, she made him happy, end of story. I guess as someone who is now going through a tough spot in his own marriage i see his reasons more clearly now...i don't know, my mind is a jumble these days.

I'm kind of sensing that you don't really understand why people do it. It's not just for "some orgasms", there's a lot more to it

oh I am SURE there's much more to what's currently going on, I'm just mystified as to what it is. I can speculate, but the cheater seems to be operating under several layers of denial afaict

xp

i still don't think i could bring myself to legitimately cheat though....and i have been tempted on more than one occassion. and i think at this point it wouldn't be in any way shape or form about sex, it would be about smiling again.

Have I told her that I think so and that she either needs to end it with the co-worker ASAP or break up with the boyfriend and move out? Yes. Do I think she's a disgusting savage? No. I think she's a genuinely good person who fucked up and is now more confused then she was at the start. Am I going to stop being her friend because I think what's she's doing is wrong? No.

I read this in the voice of Donald Rumsfeld, fwiw

it would be about smiling again.

vertical smiling amirite

sorry

not so much 'some orgasms' as 'some different orgasms'

or feeling happy, or good about yourself...or feeling worthwhile rather than worthless to someone.

x-post Yeah well that's pretty much what I sounds like.

dan savage and don rumsfeld should have traded jobs for a while

I don't know the girl in questions boyfriend btw. I assume if I did I might feel differently but for now I feel like I've told her what I think and that's enough.

Do I think she's a disgusting savage? No. I think she's a genuinely good person who fucked up and is now more confused then she was at the start. Am I going to stop being her friend because I think what's she's doing is wrong? No. It's a shitty situation for all people involved but I don't think me being as asshole to her about it is going to help at all.

That's a good way to look at it! I struggled for a while with the fact that some of my friends remained friends w/the girl my bf cheated on me with, and also with the fact that they remained friends with him.

It's sort of weird when I see her and the other guy at work together but that's mostly because now I know too much and picture them doing it. :(

smileys go the other way, i thought?

ha ha

XPs I know you have a bit of a crazy situation, Chris, but speaking generally if someone was in this kind of relationship (feeling worthless etc) it'd surely be better for all parties to sort out where it's going or what's best to do, *without* having some other party involved to complicate stuff even more?
Obviously kids complicate everything hugely so I guess I'm talking about where there's no kids.

oh agreed village people...100%.

while his wife gained like 80 pounds and lost pretty much all interest in sex..."twice a year, maybe" is what he told me

just dropping in here to say that using this doesn't excuse anything and imo pretty repugnant to indirectly blame "the fat wife" for your cheating.

ha i don't think that's "indirect"

is it okay that he cheated because... he was disgusted by his wife? or what? would it have mattered if she gained 80 lbs but still put out?

My concern with a relationship that starts as cheating on a third party is that it is conceived as a kind of escape; self-destructive escapism NAGL in trying to live honestly - which is a worthwhile aspiration IMO.

^^^yeah I think that's what's going on here and it's sad/upsetting/anger-making

I'm glad you tackled that angle, elmo. Complete agreement in all parts.

Also, the escapist thing otm. Read a book...and then see a therapist, or whatever you need to do.

Yeah the fat thing is BS although I'm p sure some people would say that is a person transforms so much that you're no longer physically attracted to them then that's a big issue. I don't agree with that necessarily but am just speculating about what some ppl (Frog or his friend?) might say. I guess the no sex thing is more of a "legit" issue because that is a huge component of a romantic relationship.

Or if not huge then at least very important. For many people.

well cheating is cheating, but, what are we to make of people that come to the realization that they are really not attracted to their partner at all anymore? i mean, if 'being happy' is at all part of a continuing reason to be in a relationship, if this source of happiness has basically disappeared, what is someone to do?

or forget what they are to do, how are we supposed to judge it here, is the important thing

xps

it is pretty shitty though to take a bunch of depression symptoms as a reason to cheat on your spouse, tho

i haven't had actual sex with my wife in almost two years.

no dan, its not a reason...but when its her telling you that you're worthless...

that's kind of another level...?

like, emotional abuse is also kind of shitty

just kind of

yeah slightly huh.

does she actually say that, or is it something you feel based on how you think she perceives you?

idk I guess what I'm thinking here is that in a lot of situations there might be stuff like what Chris is describing going on which just complicated things . . . a lot. In other situations people might just be complete fucking assholes but that's why I think it's dangerous to lump everyone together.

putting on 80lbs as soon as you feel like you got a long term guarantee is symptomatic of a lot of things, tbf

she tells me that...as in "you really don't contribute to much around here". which is BULL FUCKING SHIT.

I've totally had to say no to someone who's been interested in me as a result of NOT being interested in their partner. I've also been lied to about partners, but upon finding out, told the offending party not to bother even being friends with me, because lies involving genitals are pretty much the worst and I can't really be friends with liars anyway.

much xposts - ach, Chris - that is HORRIBLE. People who tell you about being worthless are usually projecting.

I think that in a reltionship, you have a certain amount of responsibility as an individual to be the best person you can be for the benefit of your partner. staying healthy should be a big part of that.

idk, obviously people will change physically over time, BUT if the ONLY thing that arouses you about your committed partner is their physical appearance then maybe your attitudes about intimacy & sex are unsustainable and also fucked up? also, if this anecdotal cheater actually valued his family as much as is implied, maybe he should have tried any number of options to work on the sex problem WITHIN the relationship before going extracurricular. sorry to be throwing down so many *value judgements* but i just can't get down with this.

if this source of happiness has basically disappeared, what is someone to do?

get a divorce. THEN find someone else. cheating isn't going to make you any happier. it's going to make everyone involved UNhappier.

xp

thats what i say and that doesn't go over well with her....because you know...she is AWESOME...at everything.

christ Chris that is awful. have you guys seen a counselor?

xp

also elmo otm here I think

for whatever it's worth, I interpreted it as there being a number of issues arising from gaining 80lb which made the wife not want to have sex - rather than the dude being grossed out by it necessarily

guess it could be either or both tho

No Elmo I totally fell you I was just trying to think of what other people might say. I mean, maybe the dude did try other things - we don't know the whole story. If it was just "Oh you're fat, I'm gonna get some tail elsewhere" than obv that's extremely shitty. Don't get me wrong - it's shitty regardless.

Chris - does she ever say that she feels like your mother?

just dropping in here to say that using this doesn't excuse anything and imo pretty repugnant to indirectly blame "the fat wife" for your cheating

Yeah if you just look at it in black and white maybe. The bigger issue is that she had no interest in satisfying him sexually at all which yeah, is a big deal. Obviously there's another issue if you're just no longer attracted to your partner, obviously it's morally reprehensible but when you get to the point of "I will never have sex with anyone other than this one person who I do not find attractive" it becomes a little more than just an issue of "keep it in your pants bro"

there's a whole spectrum of ways that situation could have gone down.

and a whole lot of details that we know nothing about

yes, we've seen a counselor...at this point we are on the road to separation

no she's never said that mother thing.

i mean, she could have gained 80 lbs because the spawn of Satan is growing inside of her

One thing I can tell you: when I get home tonight, I'm going to do some rowing, eat a salad, andfuck my wife.

dk, obviously people will change physically over time, BUT if the ONLY thing that arouses you about your committed partner is their physical appearance then maybe your attitudes about intimacy & sex are unsustainable and also fucked up? also, if this anecdotal cheater actually valued his family as much as is implied, maybe he should have tried any number of options to work on the sex problem WITHIN the relationship before going extracurricular. sorry to be throwing down so many *value judgements* but i just can't get down with this.

what exactly are the things that are supposed to arouse you?? she was not really interested in touching him and was emotionally cold. and how do you know that he didn't work on the problem within the relationship? obviously I don't really know the whole story - just his side.

(Chris, are you actually cool with discussing all of this on a public message board?)

yes, we've seen a counselor...at this point we are on the road to separation

sorry man. sounds like things are pretty bitter around yr house, this may be for the best.

but um yeah also what Dan said...?

and for all i know my wife could be cheating on me for the past few years for all i know...at this point, i could care less.

not really dan, but where else am i to vent. i should just can it, you're right. if i could somehow get my name not to show up...

i would suggest bringing up the issue of "seeing other people" before actually doing so.

sounds like cheating on her now would just be the nail in the coffin

to be honest, i have ZERO plans of seeing any other people. I think i would like to take some ME time before anything...like 5 years of me time.

and I HAVE NO PLANS TO CHEAT ON HER!

so can we get that straight....

i dunno, it's no surprise that a dude values sex but still i kinda feel it's his responsibility to address these concerns with his wife, either directly or in the company of a therapist, instead of using a problem in the relationship to excuse his bad behavior -- obviously i don't have the full story here but motivations don't make excuses

chris, I'm sorry about y5r situation too dude

two years in a relationship w/out getting laid seems excruciating.

Yeah Chris I've been wondering about the msgbrd thing too. God forbid she ever finds out about ILX and uses it against you somehow?

Maybe new login? IDK if that would be that much better but couldn't hurt?

i am in 1000% agreement w/elmo here

xpost thread is deindexed now as well btw

tru dat. i shall change log in.

how do i not get my name in ( )

and fwiw i have felt nauseatingly guilty after having a sexy dream about a third party so cheating is maybe outside of the things i can rationally understand, ymmv

I really really feel for that whole sitch, chris. Also, if you can't talk to us, where CAN you go to get some perspective, to let out some hurt, and/or to have your friends shake some sense into you? I support the use of ilx for this purpose.

look, all I'm saying is that many people view sex as something like recreational drug use, where it's just an issue of self-control or whatever, but there's so much more to the issue. look at all the sex scandals that break every day...I think this is a deeper issue than most in this thread are really giving it credit for.

lots of people use recreational drugs too

and have drug addictions.

There also a lot of people that don't use recreational drugs, or do use them and do not develop addictions.

Basically you're a bigger idiot than you give yourself credit for.

Is I think what she's trying to not say.

a tabloid really isn't going to run a story: BREAKING NEWS! MAN RESISTS TEMPTATION TO CHEAT ON WIFE!

CHAMPION ATHLETE TELLS ATTRACTIVE WOMAN AT BAR: SORRY, I'M TAKEN

Basically you're a bigger idiot than you give yourself credit for.

does the circle of judgement know no bounds!?!?

There also a lot of people that don't use recreational drugs, or do use them and do not develop addictions.

durf. that really wasn't the point at all.

seems like people are in some agreement here: cheating is pretty bad!

no really, if you're unhappy, then try to work it out honestly and openly, and if you can't get to a resolution, then leave. that's reasonable. but what if you have huge competing claims, like kids? kids throw the whole transactional logic of this out the window. assuming that the relationship is unworkable AND ALSO un-leavable because of parental responsibility, then what? basically someone is going to be unhappy, it's a matter of deciding who, you, your partner, your kids, and how much. who gets to suck it up and suffer for someone else?

No relationship is unleavable, although I guess look who's talking? It took me a year to work out the details/find the financial wherewithal and that was just a cohabitation.

But a friend of mine has just completed the final steps of a very amicable divorce with split custody of two young kids who seem perfectly unfazed by the whole thing because now they get to live at TWO houses and mom and dad will be even better friends than before. I know that this couple kinda made it the best-possible and you don't always get to choose what situations you find yrself in, but you can still do a lot.

I guess it took me a year from start to finish but I didn't srsly entertain the leaving idea until the last few months, then it went pretty quickly.

takes two to not-tango

just dropping in here to say that using this doesn't excuse anything and imo pretty repugnant to indirectly blame "the fat wife" for your cheating.

― tangelo amour (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:14 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otm

So she can betray him for cheeseburgers, but he can't betray her for a tart?

But a friend of mine has just completed the final steps of a very amicable divorce with split custody of two young kids who seem perfectly unfazed by the whole thing because now they get to live at TWO houses and mom and dad will be even better friends than before. I know that this couple kinda made it the best-possible and you don't always get to choose what situations you find yrself in, but you can still do a lot.

― go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:59 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah i was going to say, i don't see why having parents who are staying together who no longer have a functional relationship is good for kids? i personally was relieved as hell when my parents got divorced. (cheating wasn't the problem there, but still.)

do you really want your kids to have a fat mom who wont give BJs when they could have a pretty new mom??

I had a friend who got married young, had two kids, and kept in good shape, while his wife gained like 80 pounds and lost pretty much all interest in sex..."twice a year, maybe" is what he told me. Women were chasing him all the time so really I don't blame him one bit for acting on it (which he did), of course he wanted to keep his family together and do right by his kids so he didn't tell anyone (they divorced a few years ago so maybe she finally found out)...all that said, yes this guy is definitely being shady

alternate possibility: dude was not attracted to his wife because of her weight gain while he kept at being a gym rat, and i'm getting the sense that the 80 lb weight gain was accidentally betrayed as the real reason for the lack of sex and also accidentally betrayed which party really lost interest. even if the story is true he sounds like a bit of a creep just w/all the trash talking about his wife behind her back, her issues may have very well been related to depression or whatever.

however your friend may of course actually also have been stuck in that scenario of hapless skinny bro stuck with the overfed sexless wife, like the reverse of a cbs sitcom.

yah divorce being treated as like omg kids wont be normal just serves to treat children of divorce like pariahs

Overfed husbands on CBS sitcoms are, unfortunately, not undersexed enough -- they still get laid whenever they want, at least unless the wife is being "like that" again and not putting out because she's peeved at him for some imagined infraction which she's shown to be misguided about over the course of the next 47 minutes.

wives are so silly

jesus how long are CBS sitcoms now

i'm getting the sense that the 80 lb weight gain was accidentally betrayed as the real reason for the lack of sex and also accidentally betrayed which party really lost interest

gotta say I'm impressed you can get that from a two-sentence post on a messageboard by a stranger paraphrasing something his friend told him

With their "ideas" and their "goals" -- it's so cute when they have goals.

xp I assumed they were an hour long, but it's possible they just FEEL like it?

Maybe it's because they always show two episodes back-to-back.

kind of think that if you're in a relationship w/someone then you should be able to actually talk to them about whatever issues you have that might lead you to cheat, and if you can't talk about them or if the talking doesn't work, then that's pretty much a sign the relationship should end (at which point having sex w/other people can happen in a non-cheating context)

I don't know, I saw about 5 minutes of Mike & Molly and I swear that by the time I got to the remote to change the channel, I was 50

in the case of the fat wife, dude should have opted for talking the situation over swiftly, so that she'd be rid of him sooner

id still sympathize with someone stuck in a relationship with a person suffering from depression, however it manifests itself. i think you can have compassion for both people in that predicament. you can't have too much compassion in general, even for "disgusting savages"--and i dont think that precludes a sense of justice or right and moral behavior. it's not an either/or proposition.

that's basically what i see as frogbs's point anyway.

yeah in practice i don't think i'd ever rush to judge any of my friends if i found out they were cheating - don't think i'd even make more than a token protest

Really?

there's a pretty big difference between "this is what you should do" and actually doing it, though

I appreciate the psychoanalysis omar but that never really seemed to be the case to me. I mean since the divorce he has definitely bagged some ugly women so I don't think that was really much of an issue.

yeah, i'm wary of condemning to the point of confrontation about personal relationships that aren't mine.

xp

more reasonable answer: i've known a couple of people who have slept with others and they're actually very decent folks, and in one case the relationship was subsequently vastly improved after the revelation of the cheating. of course i've known a few creepy cheaters as well. point being that sleeping with another person is pretty much a case-by-case basis with some reasons being a little more "legit" (i guess) than others, though i think cheating is always wrong. probably should just deal with your issues or bad relationship first before you sleep with someone else.

oh I'm ready for some confrontatin', but the odds that I'll ever see this woman again at all are diminishing daily (which is weird in its own way)

Really?

How could you talk someone out of it unless they were like, 14? Being condescending and judgemental towards your friends for stuff that doesn't involve you is a good way to lose friends. It's not like they don't know it's wrong.

Anyone who can cheat on their spouse and crow about it to his friends/lie to his or her offspring and family for an extended amt of time is not a friend I'd be concerned about keeping.

t's not like they don't know it's wrong.

honestly not so sure about that in this case

he put chicks in a bag

i was thinking more of a friend confiding that they're cheating rather than crowing? idk i am friends with people for reasons other than how they behave in romantic relationships, really - if they're being really egregiously dickish about their situation (eg the fat wife thing, or crowing about it as you said) it's likely i wouldn't be friends with them in the first place.

like people (her girlfriends, etc.) that what she's doing is wrong and hurting people and her reaction seems to have amounted to a lot of incredulity/incomprehension

xp

tell her that

argh

just want to disagree in an overlong way to the idea that children contribute to a relationship being "unleavable" -- your relationship as parent and co-parent is different than your emotional commitment to your partner -- those kids unite you in some way as long as they exist. if you have kids with someone, you're pretty much going to be involved in each others lives no matter what, unless you electively abandon your kids to the other parent -- in which case you represent a much grander breed of disgusting savage.

I'm mostly friends with people because I like them as human beings, although I'm sure there have been exceptions I mean after all I hung out with the noise bored for years. But at some point of that kind of cheating behavior I'd have to reconsider the original basis for the friendship.

Anyone who can cheat on their spouse and crow about it to his friends/lie to his or her offspring and family for an extended amt of time is not a friend I'd be concerned about keeping.

I don't really approve of what he did but why should I really care about that? It's not like the woman was ever even friendly to me for chrissakes. I mean if he had a history of being shady obviously I wouldn't really want to be friends but I'm capable of being friends with people without judging everything they do.

Yeah, why should you care about someone you didn't even know.

Please, keep digging.

so he killed a guy, not like it was anybody I know. I'm sure he had his reasons.

I cheated on a woman just to watch her cry.

Keep digging? Oh thats right you're the person who called me an idiot upthread? Why care? Because I'm not a hypocrite and don't feel like taking unnecessary moral stands?? God knows if I cared enough for the people I don't know to alter my life to the point where I'm hanging out with a different set of people I'd probably be working in a soup kitchen and ringing for the Salvation Army

lol Alfred

http://www.salon.com/aug97/entertainment/company970801.gif

I'd probably be working in a soup kitchen and ringing for the Salvation Army

there are worse things you could do with your life tbh

i can see a huge difference between a friend saying "oh god dude i fucked up real bad and idk what to do" and one saying "dude you should see this gal i got over here on the side you would not believe the things we get into"

In the scenario frogbs mentions not sure I'd react to the friend telling me the tale with more than a shrug and a "you know this could get fucked up right?". I mean his first concern is his friend not the wife who never got on with frogbs in the first place. It's not like frogbs was introducing his mate to potential hook ups for crying out loud.

i can see a huge difference between a friend saying "oh god dude i fucked up real bad and idk what to do" and one saying "dude you should see this gal i got over here on the side you would not believe the things we get into"

yeah exactly; it's not like he was bragging, it was more like 3 AM comedown "real talk". he's not really proud of himself.

btw comparing cheating to murder is probably the worst analogy i've ever read on ILX, a site full of terrible analogies

hardline judging of friends for personal shit is nagl imo - even outside of specifically cheating, i've been party to feuds and arguments and break-ups where many parties behaved shittily to each other - in some cases i told them they shouldn't act like that, in others i left well, well alone, in no cases did i remonstrate or confront or consider dropping them as friends. actually, not totally true - but the people i quietly dropped weren't people i was super-close to anyway.

the older i get, the more just minding my own business seems like the best course of action. it's sort of my own moral compass.

lex really otm itt

idk i think part of true friendship is the ability to help people out of bad situations, so i find it odd to be all hands off if some dude i know is cheerfully boning peeps on the side.

because yknow lots of situations like that do end in awfulness and heartbreak for everybody involved

They can end in murder!

i know what you're sayin jjj, but at the same time, there's rarely a payoff in lecturing etc to adults, even with the best intentions.

the lovely emma b says cheating is not a deal-breaker as long as 1) you always come back and stay loyal 2) you never, ever tell. which goes against every protestant bone in my body (heh) but.. i dunno. i feel like ILX i kind of designed to make blanket statements about things and this is one of those things where blanket statements are easy to make but the underlying responsibility and story and at-faultness is just infinitely variable. which is probably why so many movies and books get made about it.

like regarding number 2 in my post above, i remember during the whole monica lewinsky thing thinking that clinton was behaving honorably by lying, like that's what any good dad and husband would do. is that crazy?

feel like ILX i kind of designed to make blanket statements about things and this is one of those things where blanket statements are easy to make but the underlying responsibility and story and at-faultness is just infinitely variable.

truth

whether something is a deal breaker or not is determined by the original terms of the deal.

the lovely emma b comes from a culture that is allegedly far more permissive/realistic about this sort of thing iirc?

or so the cinema would have me believe

It goes back to what someone posted upthread about Roger Daltrey and how he's been with his missus 40 years despite his "look I'm a rockstar, so this is the deal" - which in effect is polyamory. I have friends who seem to make that work for them somehow. I dont ask after the specifics though. Theyre not actively living with multiple people, but they have permission to play, I guess?

But, that isnt cheating of course.

one of my best friends told me a while ago that he was cheating on his wife. this was particularly disturbing to me because his wife is awesome. i expressed disapproval, which resulted in him not mentioning anything about their relationship for several years.

i gather that there was an ultimatum at some point. i do know he stopped that affair and that he and his wife are still together.

her father is/was a serial family-maker. she is in the second of three sets of his children. my friend's parents are still together.

it is my understanding that from his point of view, at least, they have very little "intimacy," though whether that was a prelude to or a result of his infidelity is unclear. (they are both attractive fwiw.) i suspect that he would be open to further cheating.

what is my duty here, then? he's a guy i've known half my life and has been v. good to me. i think less of him and i feel bad for his wife, whom i really like. would ilx have me intervene somehow in their relationship, or dump him as a friend?

well i'd say from the limited info that

1 - it's not really any of your business (to be blunt, sorry!)

2 - even if it were, sounds like the ultimatum stopped his cheating, so what would this intervention consist of

o i agree. but i've a sense that some posters would suggest otherwise

oh wait a minute haha you want to cheat with her don't you

DON'T DO IT, FOR THE LOVE OF CHRISTOPHER

Wait, what!? I didnt get that at all!

lool

it's not really your business, especially if she's aware of it.

If you know the other partner well, and they're not aware of infidelity, that's much more of a moral dilemma.

I'd still tend to keep away from getting involved though.

I'm home AND I'm back online!

Re getting involved, there are too many variables. But to me, a friend who was willing to cheat in an on-going way is someone I would just stop telling personal things to or answering messages from very promptly, if they told me about it and if they intended to continue, or even if they didn't intend to but the behavior repeated over time. It's not a chastisement, it's more my own knowledge of what kind of environment I want to live in/create w people.

Also I have def had a talk with guys I have known who had long-dist or traveling gfs and at least MENTIONED to them that if they gave in to that girl at the club who kept trying to kiss them/go home with them, they would be fucking up something actually worthwhile AND ALSO I would know. What they do with that info is up to them. But it's not like no one notices, you know? If you want your friends to think of you as "a cheater" and not a stand-up guy who does right by his lady or has a sense of honor or fairness or w/e, go right ahead.

Someone who ho's around that much probably never had any "sense of honor" or fairness to begin with.

I mean, we're not all eighteen years old, are we? Honor and fairness is something we should have mastered in junior high or at least high school. People who haven't demonstrated that should be cut loose, trying to change people with bad habits is a waste of time.

Why is the woman always an innocent party in this? Women who don't pay their own way undercut what other women do. Women who fulfill a stereotype of sticking with a man who cheats are not feminist women, but when they get cheated on the guy is a dog. You can't deliver the goods if you're high-maintenance and needy and can't accomplish anything on your own.

years later I am still friends with bro (shit, now our KIDS are friends) and bitch is to the curb.

― the sound of a norwegian guy being wrong (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, April 26, 2010 7:17 PM (10 months ago) Bookmark

nice. http://forums.hellproject.com/Smileys/default/emot-thumbsup.gif

Prefer not to judge a person if they are doing some cheating. Depending on situation I might offer an opinion (if I had a specific opinion) but I would be more likely to shy away from doing that.

If I was asked my opinion then I would give it, but in a quite...non-attacking way - I would just say "well since you have asked my opinion, then you must value my opinion in some way so here is my opinion 4 u" - though every situation in life is different, I try not have a fixed way of approaching anything

As for a third person, if you don't know them well then it is like blaming the rain for getting wet instead of yourself for not wearing a coat

i think these two tracer posts are really otm:

the lovely emma b says cheating is not a deal-breaker as long as 1) you always come back and stay loyal 2) you never, ever tell. which goes against every protestant bone in my body (heh) but.. i dunno. i feel like ILX i kind of designed to make blanket statements about things and this is one of those things where blanket statements are easy to make but the underlying responsibility and story and at-faultness is just infinitely variable. which is probably why so many movies and books get made about it.

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:56 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

like regarding number 2 in my post above, i remember during the whole monica lewinsky thing thinking that clinton was behaving honorably by lying, like that's what any good dad and husband would do. is that crazy?

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:01 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

not crazy at all! lying can often be the most decent option. though obviously it's more decent to not cheat at all. but i think honesty for its own sake is something of a false grail... people over-valorize telling the truth in situations where it will probably only create more anguish

i had a friend confide in me a while back, rather glibly, that he was looking to start something 'on the side' with some girl he just met. i was immediately like, you freakin monster. but then after a minute i was like, i guess i can't really cast stones, and we had some Real Talk where he admitted he respected his gf too much to really do it. but ever since then i've kinda had a policy not to be too judgy if my friends get into some shit like that, i mean whats the point?

fessing up to wrongdoing is definitely overstated as a virtue.

So, discretion if you're gonna do it?

I would probably think better of them if they cheated with me

depending who they were of course

Darragh the way you said that is sounds like you're condoning it which I know you're not but guess I agree. I mean, I still can't really get on board with ppl who intentionally and repeatedly cheat (see co-worker I mentioned yesterday) it just seems too wrong BUT I also think there's something to be said for not telling. As I said, I've already told her that I think she needs to either a) end it with the bf and move out or b) end it with the co-worker asap and stay with the bf but I also told her that if she chooses to do b then she should prob never tell the bf because, in the end, she'd be doing so only to make herself feel less guilty and it would destroy the bf.

discretion is for after the fact not to ease the continuation of

yeah - i'm presupposing that it's happened, and not condoning it, but in that situation your options as a listener/friend are pretty limited, realistically

Yeah. I've already told her what I think of the situation and let her know that I feel for her and understand that it's complicated. If she keeps this up for a long time or seemed really blasé about the whole thing I might feel differently but, as it is right now, I like this person a lot and think she's really confused and got into some dumb shit but I'm not going to end a friendship over that.

one of my good friends is pretty much a serial cheat. I'm certain his gf knows as much as she wants to know. I've told him i dont want to hear about it, and i'm never going to be an accomplice in it, but we've been friends a long time, i love them both, and i just trust that they'll manage their own business.

They're gettin married this year, afaik he's actually been dormant ever since the engagement- maybe that's their deal? I dont know, i dont really want to. They've been together since they were 15, i'm not sure they maybe just didn't find the best solution for them?

his fiancee, i should say, obviously

can't stop myself posting philip roth, here, on cheating. these two pages:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DOit5trhKvcC&lpg=PP1&dq=roth%20everyman&pg=PT129#v=onepage&q&f=false

not telling is not an option. if you want to be kind and protective, you get a chance to do that by not cheating, you know; withholding critical relationship info is decision you shouldn't get to make. i totally get that the repurcussions of this are brutal & maybe telling someone is as wounding a move and can be motivated by ego rather than care, but all the same, i think getting to know what your relationship's like & how it works is a basic right.

sorry, that's kinda overly succinct & aggro, and i get that these things happen, but it feels as deceptive to withhold as to cheat in the first place, to me.

x-post I see what you're saying and it does make sense but again, as with all of this, I think it really depends on the situation.

yeah & that is probably the takehome from this thread. i know that sometimes people's universe narrows down to some cloes-up situation in which they end up cheating, and, what are you gonna do about it after? it's probably best that you don't additionally tear up someone's life, down to where they live, how they define themselves, etc. but for all of that withholding and letting someone walk around with the wrong idea in their head just feels as brutal a thing as you can do to someone.

No, you're right, it does but I feel like both options are pretty brutal at that point albeit in different ways. Damn this stuff can be overwhelmingly complex if you really start to think about it.

I had this girlfriend when I was way younger who, in the last month or so of our relationship, I have every reason to believe (outside of actual, concrete evidence) was cheating on me. In retrospect, I recognize a lot of cues from other points in our relationship that indicate that she may have been cheating on me throughout our relationship as well. With a serious buffer of time between then and now, I appreciate more the good and happy times that we had together more than I would have appreciated her being honest with me - however illusory they may have been.

A note: I've never cheated on anyone and could never even imagine myself cheating on my wife, regardless of any imaginable situation. But I can see how for someone, infidelity might be part of the tapestry of their human experience or whatever, in some respect.

i tend to agree with your hard line on it schlump- for myself. It's the position you're put in as a third party 'in the know' where it's a greyer area imo.

Never cheated, so whether i'd be as in favour of the hard line in that position, i don't know.

omar little & a bunch of other ppl upthread are otm imo when they say cheating's something you can really only think about on a case-by-case basis.

like, i have a friend who i've seen cheat on his gf in the past (i've told him i'm not cool with it but that's really about as far as I can go, there) - i'd always assumed his gf kind of knew, but apparently he's told her he's not done more than kiss another girl. And you could say that never telling her is the right thing to do, because it would hurt her horribly, but the fact is she kind of suspects it - and then he denies it - and then she blows up about some girl he's not actually cheating on her with and he's all 'girl why u mad' - and basically he ends up making her feel like she's this crazy paranoid jealous girlfriend who's imagining things. I'm not saying that discretion after-the-fact doesn't work, and mightn't be the most sensible thing in many cases, but when it goes wrong it can be hugely harmful.

what a dick

no judgment but really

no judgment but really

lol this is probably where i'm at. at some thorough, human level i am never gonna assume i know enough about someone and their mad reasons and the labyrinthine complexities of being inside a relationship/being in a situation when someone ends up cheating to judge. but i think you're pretty open to a one dimensional what a dick at the least.

Since I don't cheat, ever, I really freak out when people do things I consider 'disloyal'. Two 'friends' of mine - an ex and a former best friend - wound up having a fling and swearing our mutual friends to secrecy, which had the fabulous bonus effect of all those embarrassed-by-the-wrongness being mysteriously emotionally unavailable while it was happening, which left me wondering why I felt unusually isolated from my friends at a time when I was going through unrelated but awful personal shit. The ex pretended like nothing was happening with his fling partner, while the 'best friend' happily chatted away about my lingering feelings for the ex with me and suggested courses of action should I want him back. So all these people kept something from me which, had I known, would have been much better for me because at least I wouldn't have had vague feelings of insecurity and paranoia - much worse than the sharp shock of confirmed hurt feelings about the reality of a situation. There are few things worse than feeling like you're the last honest person on Earth...

cheating's something you can really only think about on a case-by-case basis.

no. wtf.

of course there are an infinite number possible circumstances but i would challenge that only a tiny number of those are actually extenuating.

like: your partner has been in a coma for years. you should get some leeway for that.

"i was drunk and mad at my fat wife and tempted by a nubile undergrad" doesn't cut it.

Elmo I don't think anyone here (except maybe Frog?) would disagree with you those points.

one of my good friends is pretty much a serial cheat. I'm certain his gf knows as much as she wants to know. I've told him i dont want to hear about it, and i'm never going to be an accomplice in it, but we've been friends a long time, i love them both, and i just trust that they'll manage their own business.

friend of mine is a bit like this too. largely we consider it his own business but occasionally if it's just the guys there might be a bit of a tendency to criticise him for it, in a jokey way, and he'd be quite silent and free of justification about it.

the thing is I dunno, I am pretty sure he loved the people he cheated on deeply.

yeah, i respect that you feel strongly on it, but nobody's really arguing for the latter case at all.

xp, obv

Yeah ronan, it's something very similar with this guy. It's not anything i'd try to justify, i guess i just compartmentalise the part of him that does that away from the guy who i've known for 15 years and who i ilke to spend time with.

i don't find myself morally judging him too much really. i dunno, i feel weird about this kind of thing.

sometimes ostensibly "good" people i know who are less open about what they do seem more morally questionable to me, i think i self identify as guilty or am quick to judge myself and hence i empathise with people who are open, if not proud, about bad behaviour.

whereas people who are more morally forthright, i kinda wonder where that confidence comes from, and judge them more harshly for bad behaviour.

well hypocrisy's just an added bonus to the whole discussion i'd say

i empathise with people who are open, if not proud, about bad behaviour

i'm not saying i don't understand this, but having been party to a few situations where certain people's horrendous behaviour was swept under the carpet, prob for similar reasons, it's pretty much enabling - this is why people who behave like cunts feel they can (and often do) get away with it, if they're not called on it

and yeah it's the responsibility of friendship groups to do that, to an extent - who else will?

i don't really mean i forgive it, i dunno, and not specific instances. i think i just feel more at ease with people who know we are all sinners </ catholic>

Again someone repeatedly acting like a tota cunt and not giving a shit about it v. fucking up once and stressing about it. Like, I don't think I could be friends with someone like Darragh and Ronan are describing and not have it bother me at least on some level. I would probably remain friends with them but if this sort of behavior was something that was happening over and over again and if the person in question didn't think it was troublesome at all then I think I'd start to have some serious issues with them. I don't even know what this thread is about anymore tbh.

don't really understand ronan's reasoning -- i get people saying it's difficult and sometimes impossible to call out cheaters but not that it's actually sort of better to cheat than not!? i guess it makes a difference how well you know the injured party.

What kind of bad behavior, is it funny bad behavior or bad behavior as in cruel and mean to others? I assume most of us have jobs and other boring life commitments where the office / church / whatever bad guy or girl can be a forgivable source of amusement.

Of course we're talking about cheating, which on the surface is pretty sleazy, I think it's sleazy because people don't even admit to themselves what they do. It's all the icky guilt issues that bother me.

of course there are an infinite number possible circumstances but i would challenge that only a tiny number of those are actually extenuating.

oh elmo i'm not saying that i think cheating is justified! To me it seems a really terrible thing to do to someone you're supposed to love and respect. But when it happens it always seems to be so rooted in the particular relationship of the couple that you can't really apply a blanket set of rules to it.

My best friend cheated on his girlfriend of 3 years with the woman he ended up marrying. He cheated on future wife a couple of times when they were going out but stopped, as far as I'm aware, once they got engaged. Now been married 10+ years and has 4 kids. Seems pretty happy. I probably got on with girl number one far better than I did/do with his wife but pretty much kept my opinions to myself. My actual thoughts on the matter were more along the lines of ' don't be a dick' mixed with 'why would you risk fucking up your relationship for new girl who's not all that' etc. Considering they're now married glad I decided to keep these thoughts to myself tbh. He did what was right for him and pretty sure he doesn't regret a thing.

as one of my friends puts it, when his wife accuses him of cheating (which he has never done)..."I already have one crazy bitch in my life, why do i want another one."

Elmo I don't think anyone here (except maybe Frog?) would disagree with you those points.

No...look, I am not saying that cheating is sometimes "okay" or whatever. I don't support what my buddy did but I will say I understand his side of the argument. If in 5 years my wife became unattractive and completely uninterested in sex I would like to think I'd have the balls to let her know that something has to change or I'm out. Realistically, I'm not so sure it would be so easy to do the right thing. It's so easy to just relax and say you would always take the high road. Its like those who have never smoked being condescending towards those who just can't quit; I mean sure you can feel disappointed in them and it can lower your opinion of them, but you shouldn't think these people are weak unless you've really felt their situation. That's really all I'm trying to say. I don't know what it's like to feel trapped in a bad marriage.

i also have a close friend who cheated on his first wife, they were miserable (they were married really young) and ended up divorced, he remarried the girl he cheated with and he is much happier. He broke down and told me one night years ago and how it was killing him because he had a young son at the time. But he couldn't take it anymore.

x-post - yeah I didn't necessarily think you'd agree but it seemed like some people were misinterpreting some of what you were saying yesterday and thought if I put your name in there maybe you'd explain more which you have.

He should have stayed with his hot old wife, who was at his level, in terms of professional looks. I mean cheating on your wife with a desperate public housing resident is pretty embarrassing. I live in a black neighborhood, professional guys think fat black ass is hot all the time but need the skinny model to save face.

If in 5 years my wife became unattractive and completely uninterested in sex I would like to think I'd have the balls to let her know that something has to change or I'm out.

you're okay with her having the balls to kick you out if you get unattractive too, right? i'm not trying to be difficult, but just, considering how broad notions of 'become unattractive' are, or how complicated the conditions behind gaining some weight might be, this just seems way too straightforward. people falling out of love is a thing, but making it sound like some sort of selfish/remissive failure to upkeep the merch is weird.

xp: well all right then

He should have stayed with his hot old wife, who was at his level, in terms of professional looks. I mean cheating on your wife with a desperate public housing resident is pretty embarrassing. I live in a black neighborhood, professional guys think fat black ass is hot all the time but need the skinny model to save face.

― Millionaire Seeks Ghetto Boo Boo Bah Bah Sex Slave (u s steel), Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:54 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

WTF?

amazing

I mean, cheating is a part of life at the professional level. Can't take your black ghetto mammy to the office.

us steel is http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=19026

oh shit that didn't work

yeah what

uhhhhhhhhhhhh

again wtf

oh my.

huh

good to know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rloidlFbi4w

..........

shit, now i'm never gonna get any work done. was in the mood for a trainwreck though...

http://www.cpcml.ca/images2010/WorkersEconomy/Steel/USSteelShark-400.jpg

I think that was too perfectly formed and timed to cause a trainwreck, like everyone is just sitting there stunned by the platonic ideal of wrongness and is incapable of mustering an actual response.

^^^

yes

you guys only noticing us steel now? Wtf at all of you tbh, dude's been 'on fire' for a few days now.

I don't know, feels like it's missing something. It could do with an ill-thought out, lazy, ignorant and stupid blanket statement about Islam and the gays to make up the set.

us steel is an interesting poster who has been around for a while

I swear I read somewhere that u s steel is a ladyposter btw

could be wrong

"interesting"

she is, iirc xp

*steeples hands, leans chin into steepled hands*

Why all the drama? Cheating is a very serious subject, it can contaminate people's family relations and their workplaces. I was just responding to one of the stories upthread. A lot of people cheat because they married someone for family pressures or career pressures when their actual taste is a bit downmarket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xekfBhiqfig

i think i'm actually gonna do the ban thing. i've never done it before. nothing, um, personal.

my dad wants me to settle down with a 'nice girl', but me personally, i only fill from the skank tank

SS NOOOOOOOOOOO, I thought we were cool!

x-posts you're a little nutty, huh?

Why all the drama? Cheating is a very serious subject, it can contaminate people's family relations and their workplaces. I was just responding to one of the stories upthread. A lot of people cheat because they married someone for family pressures or career pressures when their actual taste is a bit downmarket.

I think the point is that your response includes an idiotic racist generalisation.

this has all the characteristics of an actual train-wreck now btw, people are gathered around talking about the thing in questioning voices even though the whole wreck is still just right there to look at

xxxp

dmac is even poking it with a stick

wait, i wasn't gonna sb you, enbb. now i'm confused.

yeah, it's a little like watching the beginning of an avalanche

oh god now he's got a bit of broken piston

what is he doing

lol I know Scott - I joke! :)

deems, put the stick down

brb, need to go hide my black ghetto mammy

awww

How is making fun of racist attitudes racist? Keep rolling, my soulful meaningful brothah! Corporate guy trying to have an affair with a lower class black woman is racist, please try harder to keep up on black community issues.

You are high.

Keep rolling, my soulful meaningful brothah!

"Check it out now, my soulful meaningful brothah!"

http://youthoughtso.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/fatboy-slim.jpg

oh man...

btw I am stopping now, the last time I got into it with this poster the results weren't pretty for anyone

you're okay with her having the balls to kick you out if you get unattractive too, right? i'm not trying to be difficult, but just, considering how broad notions of 'become unattractive' are, or how complicated the conditions behind gaining some weight might be, this just seems way too straightforward. people falling out of love is a thing, but making it sound like some sort of selfish/remissive failure to upkeep the merch is weird.

Maybe I should clarify this a bit; I'm talking about just not taking care of yourself, like "well, I'm married so I don't have to attract anyone anymore, so I don't have to work out and can eat whatever I want", instead of, say "I developed a glandular problem somehow". It's only kind of about being superficial about looks. It's also about wanting your partner to care about what you think and not take you for granted. I mean that's sort of the root of cheating a lot of the time isn't it? "My partner doesn't really care what I think anymore, but there are other people who do". I mean dating at first is always such a rush of trying to present yourself in the best possible light and consequently seeing the better things in your bf/gf, I would think losing that completely really would be depressing.

this is funny.

xposts

http://images1.cliqueclack.com/tv/files/2011/01/the-korean-bookie-1024-425x239.jpg

xxp: well, and a partner who isn't going to get adult-onset diabetes or heart disease or some shit like that.

A wife who won't die.

ok jesus christ people considering that very few of us get better looking as we age after a certain point, the idea that sliding attractiveness is a promoter of cheating is just so so weird to me.

ok wait that last statement by frogbs makes things a little clearer but idk i still am kinda creeped out by that attitude.

don't think a person likes to be taken for granted is all

i think frogbs has been tryin to clarify that it's more a hypothetical case of 'lol u stuck with me now watch this ass expand, joeks on u'

Which, tbh, is something i'm pretty sure i'm at least a little guilty of when i'm in a relationship. Being single is good for my waistline

(and yes, i am aware that part of my reason for making that argument right now is roughly akin to talking really loudly to distract everyone else in the elevator after someone unloads a huge fart.)

ok jesus christ people considering that very few of us get better looking as we age after a certain point, the idea that sliding attractiveness is a promoter of cheating is just so so weird to me.

On this tip with you. The idea that "attractiveness" is even one of the issues here is...off-putting.

it's kinda like nationalised industry = contractors getting all complacent, kicking back while they work and letting infrastructural work be super expensive and not so thorough, versus privatised industry = everyone is bidding and a lot of people lose out but the people who do a real good job win the first prize, and in this analogy frogbs is margaret thatcher

Mutualised industry = a great big orgy?

A person you don't love anymore or respect or want to be vulnerable to etc is gonna become unattractive no matter HOW fit they keep themselves or w/e. Also the described scenario is pretty bare-bones and wtf in terms of what behaviors of each partner possibly led the other partner to act/react, and so on.

the movement of an economy towards privatised industry = the slow ebbing of your romantic flame; the gradual wandering of your monogamous mate

I feel like the "attractiveness" part is getting too much of the focus, I was reading it more as shorthand for a partner that changes dramatically after marriage or whatever. As in, stops being hygenic or taking care of themselves or whatever. Still, imho, no excuse for cheating, but I don't think it was entirely meant as a "boring old wife got chubby and now I want hot, young poon" thing.

Ie if my partner is a dick and I start feeling like he's being a dick but I'm too confused/afraid/intimidated to say anything, one quick side-effect is that I'm gonna stop feeling like having sex with him.

omg

On this tip with you. The idea that "attractiveness" is even one of the issues here is...off-putting.

totally disagree. it's not "attractiveness" per se, but the idea that you should still make an effort to be someone your partner wants to be with. obviously that doesn't give someone a license to cheat or leave guilt-free once aging starts to take effect, but i think trying to keep yourself reasonably healthy & together is pretty important.

I think the point really is more that for many of us, when we start thinking about things that attract us to our long-term partners, there are attributes that are not physical; tying primacy down to those physical attributes seems, from some viewpoints, immature.

Like, if you actually fall in love with a woman, you are falling in love with all of her, not just her bodacious rack, so if she becomes the same personality with an awful rack the bond has already been made and you aren't caring as much as you thought you would.

people often let themselves go - its not just physically, its caring about things, taking an interest in things, taking an interest in the other person, getting comfortable with routine

they're all kind of the same thing imo

no i know, and i get that, i just always wonder how much of the "well what if my spouse gets uglier and wants to have sex less" is coded fear of the aging process, because hoo buddy guess what, we're all gonna get that way eventually.

millions of xposts also yeah pretty much djp otm

awesome screenname coda to super romantic post
xp @ dan

I think the point really is more that for many of us, when we start thinking about things that attract us to our long-term partners, there are attributes that are not physical; tying primacy down to those physical attributes seems, from some viewpoints, immature.

OTFM. grow up, people.

Yeah but I'm saying, we have no idea whether HE continued to be a partner that SHE wanted to be with in any area other than physical fitness. The only part frogs has described is p much the absolute most shallow aspects of the sitch so everything else is speculation, but NOBODY is coming out smelling very good here.

I was reading it more as shorthand for a partner that changes dramatically after marriage or whatever. As in, stops being hygenic or taking care of themselves or whatever. Still, imho, no excuse for cheating,

right, not an excuse for cheating, but a valid reason to end the relationship (hopefully after some honest & concerned communication, and address whatever issues are in play [depression or other problems in the relationship etc.])

xp

I think its perhaps just as much "what if my spouse starts engaging with things less and starts to lose the spark and verve that was the draw in the first place" - this manifests in many ways, physically is just one

ok jesus christ people considering that very few of us get better looking as we age after a certain point, the idea that sliding attractiveness is a promoter of cheating is just so so weird to me.

That's not really at all what I'm saying though. Look I know that people are superficial but it's more a factor of "Why is she not even trying to look good for me anymore? Am I not worth it?" and realizing that there are women out there who would make the effort. There's a difference between saying how much you love someone all the time and actually doing things that you don't want to do for them. I don't like washing dishes but I do them because I know that my wife doesn't like it either. I know she'll do them if I don't and I know she won't get pissed about it, but hey, that's love.

pics or it isn't empathisable, is what i'm getting from everyone here

haaaaaaaaaaa

if a person in a relationship is really "letting him/herself go" i feel like "cheat on that person" should be waaayyyyy down on the list of possible recourses

Do people stop engaging or being interested in things because they get boring or lazy or, alternatively, because they get busier and real life pressures get in the way. Seems to me it's closer to the latter in most relationships over time. It's easy to have spark and verve and be interested in loads of things when you're young and have a lot of time on your hands.

maybe a preliminary pep talk; 'if you don't turn things around, i'm probably going to start cheating on you'.
xp

hahaha

Haha you think you're kidding. I've had that basically said to me.

I think that is known in the common parlance as a "dealbreaker"

Well actually it was more like "If you don't behave in ways that I like, you're going to be alone...forever." But you know, it's all basically the same. Yeah, and really truly this is my bad for not kicking that to the curb long before.

first part of matt's last post new board description pls

T/S conforming to ways-i-like vs being alone forever

Do people stop engaging or being interested in things because they get boring or lazy or, alternatively, because they get busier and real life pressures get in the way. Seems to me it's closer to the latter in most relationships over time. It's easy to have spark and verve and be interested in loads of things when you're young and have a lot of time on your hands.

Yeah, I suppose you're talking mostly about having kids, but obviously someone who "lets themselves go" because they're too busy with the kids/job or whatever doesn't really fit what I'm talking about. It's more about people who take the easy road because they figure they've already got their partner locked up.

contact and touch is so important. it keeps you connected to someone. when people get too busy or too lazy or too tired to touch each other - even a hug - then this is the slippery slope to a rut that is hard to get out of. and its when people start looking elsewhere because people want to be touched. it also gets harder and harder to re-establish contact if you aren't physically close on a regular basis. then you just become roommates. and when you have that contact and intimacy you tend to keep loving the person you fell in love with no matter what kind of horrible monster they turn into over time. so stay in touch.

partner locked up = cannot get exercise
xp

See the sheer presence of the mindset "locking the partner up" just betrays really tediously bad things about the rel'ship as a whole that are inconsistent with being awesome human beings.

xp lololll

man idk that just seems so paranoid to me? like of all the reasons i would guess my SO had for physical qua undesirable changes, slacking because they had me on lockdown wouldn't be at the top of the list xxxpost

Do people stop engaging or being interested in things because they get boring or lazy or, alternatively, because they get busier and real life pressures get in the way. Seems to me it's closer to the latter in most relationships over time. It's easy to have spark and verve and be interested in loads of things when you're young and have a lot of time on your hands.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 24 March 2011 08:56 (6

They do it for all kinds of reasons (partner working away a lot is prob right up there in terms of reasons for cheating)

schlump LOL
Laurel otm re: "Locking up"
SS: OTM x 1000 and when that's not there anymore (for whatever reason)it can be a HUGE problem

It's more about people who take the easy road because they figure they've already got their partner locked up.

this is not a person you should cheat on, its a person you should divorce

"Why is she not even trying to look good for me anymore? Am I not worth it?" and realizing that there are women out there who would make the effort

So what efforts is he making for her? I mean I guess to a guy the effort of not sticking yr wang in 18-year-olds is maybe a whole lot bigger than the willpower required to lose 80 pounds and keep it off, but for me one of those sounds quite easy and the other really doesn't, and you can guess which is which by my gigantic rippling waistline and lack of 18-year-olds (or wang)

(really its a person you shouldnt have married in the first place but we all make mistakes)

"Hey ive noticed all your teeth are falling out because you stopped brushing them 6 months ago - you do realize i can still bail any time i want to, right?"

Yeah, what max said. This is not the kind of relationship to have at all, ever. Even if you both stayed attractive to 22-yr olds forever.

"Why is she not even trying to look good for me anymore? Am I not worth it?"

the big problem I have with this line of thinking is that my thought process would be:

"Why is she not even trying to look good anymore? Is there something wrong I can help her with?"

like, it wouldn't be about what she is doing for me at all; it would be about what she is doing to herself

certainly, that's how i'd *phrase* it, sure

JOKES PPL JOKES

Thread has got really focused on one very specific thing, mainly to have a bash at frogbs's friend who none of us have ever met.

i am just trying to establish an extensive pre-marriage what a swell guy in relationships blanket PR campaign

Well you have to take into account that not everyone has the same amount of foresight as you guys do. People marry young or after knocking someone up. Also, you have a different set of values as you get older. I mean I don't know if you guys are all just better people than me but I do have a voice in the back of my head that is telling me to take the easy road on all sorts of things.

some of these issues/excuses seem a bit more indicative of having got into a relationship for the wrong reasons, rather than cheating for the "right" reasons

may 'attraction' or whatever in this case (or any case) is really a smaller bit of something bigger and more pervasive, like 'not loving anymore'

i mean we can draw a venn diagram or w/e, but 'no longer attracted' seems kind of superficial, but 'don't love you anymore' invites less judgement.

If frogs doesn't want us to have a bash at his friends, he should maybe stop telling stories about them in the most thoughtless and shallow and gender-fucked way possible. Fewer references to bagging ugly chicks, for instance.

im still incredibly attracted to my wife, she just isn't to me though. i would happily bang her at anytime, instead i rely on the web.

im still incredibly attracted to my wife, she just isn't to me though. i would happily bang her at anytime, instead i rely on the web.

twice. awesome.

I think jjj and I have known each other long enough to know that we can both vouch for each other being thoroughly horrible human beings

oh god yes

remember that bag of kittens?

i actually kind of admire the apparent conservatism that makes people not want to get divorced? but i would admire it more if it was paired with the kind of commitment to a marriage that would preclude cheating

boy they never saw THAT coming xpost

still worth it for the look on the principal's face

fewer references to bagging young nubile kittens would make this thread a way nicer place fwiw

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DMgBO5uWGSU/Rp62_RgN9eI/AAAAAAAAACw/a6kxwChXFdY/s400/_cute_kitten.jpg

rowr

If frogs doesn't want us to have a bash at his friends, he should maybe stop telling stories about them in the most thoughtless and shallow and gender-fucked way possible. Fewer references to bagging ugly chicks, for instance.

Ehhh if my posts are what you see as most thoughtless and shallow and gender-fucked things possible, I would say you should probably go outside more. I mean this is a semi-anonymous message board, why tiptoe around the subject? Do you think I don't accept that men don't do their share of horrible shit/taking people for granted?

LAUREL GO OUTSIDE MORE OKAY?

I'LL DO THAT AS SOON AS IT STOPS FUCKING HAILING, NOT GOING ANYWHERE TIL THEN TBH

one of my best friends is/was cheating on her husband (we haven't had a chance to talk in a few months but she a had a long flirtation + made out w/this co-worker). it's a shit thing but if i'm honest, i think her husband deserves it bc he's a douche. of course, if it was anyone else i'd be totally judgmental.

thing is, i warned her this would be the result several years ago, when a couple weeks after her wedding invitations went out, she called me in tears bc her fiance had told her that he didn't know if it was gonna work out anymore bc he needed a 'hot girl' and she was just 'cute'. i mean, what kind of adult says something like that. he is infamous in our home town crowd for being a totally sleazy creep who nobody liked, it always annoyed me they ended up together bc she is truly too good for him. anyway: they made up (kind of), and when i advised her to cancel or at least postpone the wedding, she refused bc she really wanted the big fancy wedding (which forever changed how i perceived her tbh) and thought that this was her only chance.

she is still w/the husband but apparently 'in love' with this other guy. however, for some pretty serious practical reasons she says she can't leave him - but i'm with laurel, i don't think any relationship is unleavable.

the big problem I have with this line of thinking is that my thought process would be:

"Why is she not even trying to look good anymore? Is there something wrong I can help her with?"

like, it wouldn't be about what she is doing for me at all; it would be about what she is doing to herself

Well when it comes to maintaining yourself there are obviously two sides to it. It's up to you to determine what it is.
And I absolutely think that the man can be responsible for driving her to neglect herself.

that guys sounds like a cocksmoocher.

and vice versa.

xpost

arguments about which partner's at fault for the decay of a relationship are a great part of the later stages of the decay of the relationship. when you're at the point of assigning blame it is really fucking hard to repair what's happening

she called me in tears bc her fiance had told her that he didn't know if it was gonna work out anymore bc he needed a 'hot girl' and she was just 'cute'

I would totally cheat on this guy. What a jackass.

yeah is he some meathead?

i would marry that guy just so i could cheat on him on a whole other level

i can't even picture a human being saying such a thing. how can you not call it off after something like that?!

xpost ha ha

i would marry him, then gain 80lbs out of spite

my guess is this guy has a blowout.

sounds similar to what a friend of mine who was dating a younger guy went through lately (he told her he wasn't sure he could commit cuz he wanted someone with a "tight body" - he dumped her a year later saying "I just don't love you as much as you love me"). assholes what ken ye do.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3AkRloVuSJM/R8TftshOrlI/AAAAAAAAAXk/__CjLulQ9n0/s400/guido01.jpg

I would say to him, "by the way, I only married you for the big party and I've been cheating on you, feel free to go and fuck that hot girl if you want" and then point and laugh as he slowly realises that he can't.

if you're discussing private matters on a public avatar you should really change your avatar pic, chris
xp

oops, public forum

he slowly realises that he can't.
wait why couldn't he?

he is infamous in our home town crowd for being a totally sleazy creep who nobody liked

sounds totally alpha to me

lol sleazy creeps that nobody likes get laid all the time

there are avatars on this board??

You guys are just making up these stories at this point, right?

maybe we should have a separate thread for alphamales and why they should be culled from the herd

my story is 100% true and from within the last few months

sad thing is my friend is hardly fat or unfit or whatever - she is in perfectly decent shape and cute and all that. just, ugh, the blow to her self-esteem. I wanted to beat this guy.

xps yeah the thing is that when they hooked up she didn't know him at all, but i had friends who did - he owned a popular bar and there were numerous stories about what a dick he was, and i myself saw his know-it-all dickery in action, but lol i wasn't in a position to comment since i was also dating a total psychopath.

they also had an open relationship, where he could basically sleep with whomever he wanted, so i don't know why he needed to marry a 'hot girl' when his 'cute' fiancee was already letting him fuck whoever. and he's not even that good looking.

i think reality set in last year for her when he starting ~~really~~ pressuring her to have kids and she realised that she could not ever imagine breeding w/him, despite the fact that she really wants a family.

My bf hasn't wanted to sleep with me in a couple years. Recently we were mulling this over and he said, hey, you know it's nothing personal, right? So I asked if he thought I was still fanciable, in theory. He thought for a minute and said I don't know, you have at least one hat that I've looked at you in and thought 'urgh'.

It's not enough to stay thin, people. Choose yr hats with care. *shoots self*

wow

bar owner... open relationship... pressuring to have kids...

this guy is off the damn charts. is your friend living in an awful romantic comedy? this is nuts

xps wow the hats

what is happening on this thread

just1n3, just out of sheer nosiness, what are the 'practical reasons' why your friend won't leave this guy?

WOW. I have had some fucked up things said to me somewhat recently (one of which was a suggestion that I shoot myself in the head) but that is a bridge even beyond. Or at least on par. What are you...HOW are you? to Surfing.

Zora would it be rude to ask why you've hung in there for that couple of years?

the hat thing

I can't even

was he serious?

I read the hat thing as a dodgy joek, I was wondering more about why one stays in a relationship after the sexual attraction has taken a nose-dive

xps to goole: it's work visa/job stuff + financial stuff. but like i said: not impossible to deal with. last time we talked i tried to remind her what an incredibly independent, capable, motivated person she was (and still is) before she married this guy. she is still trying to start her career, and the nature of her work is pretty niche and hard to get jobs, and most of the jobs are short contract, so i think she's really scared of trying to do it on her own.

It's documented in the Sex Droughts thread. In a nutshell, he has valid reasons for losing his libido that have nothing to do with me or the hats, and I've been trying not to be that shitheel who leaves someone cause they're ill.

(some xposts)

does this guy fuck hats or what

Wash fucking a hat.

and fyi: my friend IS super hot, not just cute. she has a rockin' body and the best boobs i have seen irl, which just goes to show that her husband is even more of a stupid douche.

I've been trying not to be that shitheel who leaves someone cause they're ill

I totally feel you on this and you have my regards

You've seen her boobs irl? xp

pics or it didn't happen

xpost

someone was going to say it, so I was just getting it out of the way now

uh yes.

it's my understanding that when women are alone together it's mostly just non-stop topless pillowfights and shots of tequila

correct me if I'm wrong ladies!

I've been trying not to be that shitheel who leaves someone cause they're ill

--------

I totally feel you on this and you have my regards

― a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:03 PM (2 minutes ago)

^^^^ ;_; ^^^^

NO Shakey Mo you are dead right.

Justin3 I am feeling all kinds of outraged on behalf of your friend, I hope she sees the light but tbf I know a lot of people who stay in bad relationships for worse reasons and well, who am I to cast nasturtiums etc.

FWIW bf *was* serious viz the hats. He does thing when he's really tired of delivering bizarre truthbombs, this was one. I think it's pretty funny, nonetheless.

please do not correct him even if he is wrong tbh xposts

yeah ^^^ right on re: this. for all the talk of the importance of the physical side of a relationship itt it is so the case that it's sometimes necessary to ride out a spell of time without, for the other person's sake, when the alternative is like ... people having sex against their natural preference, purely to satisfy their partner's needs.

The thing is I think you have to be somewhat willing to respond to your partner's needs, and very much willing to recognise that those needs are valid, and real, and that not acknowledging this will bring consequences. "What does he/she want sex for, it's so selfish, can't he/she see I am too tired/stressed/depressed/busy?" is a common enough response, and boy does it miss the mark.

my wife just says she's not interested. MY BONER IS SAYING I AM.

yeah that's really not good enough imo - everyone goes through different phases of libido etc. but at some point you have to recognise that your partner has put up with a lot and you need to give back a little, not bc they might cheat bc that is a stupid emo form of blackmail, but bc you love them and want to satisfy them

uh oh

By 'consequences' I didn't mean 'cheating', more that well, it fucking hurts to be constantly rejected and denied intimacy, and if you love someone you don't want to be inflicting that pain. Perhaps the no-libido people don't realise how painful it is, idk.

yeah try 10 years of that shit oops wine talking

yeah that's really not good enough imo - everyone goes through different phases of libido etc. but at some point you have to recognise that your partner has put up with a lot and you need to give back a little, not bc they might cheat bc that is a stupid emo form of blackmail, but bc you love them and want to satisfy them

yeah (at this point in the thread i wanna embody my arguments in fictional friends of mine, since there are so many third-persons walking around here), but i guess it depends what those reasons are. kinda hesitant to go into detail here but if someone is sincerely not feeling it, & not getting anything from things, then i feel like riding it out is the right thing to do, and maybe psychically best for a person who just needs time or to work through their thing. i don't know.

But at some point the non-sex condition of the relationship becomes what the relationship IS, not just a passing phase until you get back to the "real" way of being together.

I stayed w someone once who was sick and needed time but it rly messed me up over time and in order to cope, I had to revise the whole set-up in my head and eventually it just wasn't a partner relationship anymore.

are married ppl incapable of masturbation? if your sex drive exceeds your partner's maybe you DO need to cheat on them with yourself

dude i rub them out constantly.

It's difficult b/c there can be a mental block about getting turned on, whereby people think they have to be all into it before they start, whereas in fact often it works the other way round. It's often worth giving it a go, IMHO. OTOH if you are srsly not into it you have to feel able to say 'stop' b/c it is soul destroyingly vile to repeatedly have sex you're not into, even if you love the other person (I have been on that side, too.)

Cheating is not the answer ofc, and for me an open rel would not work either.

xpost Laurel - I can see that. Did the other person feel the same, if that's not too personal a q for public board?

xpost elmo - ffs, there's a difference between 'sex drive exceeds' and 'no sex whatsoever'. INITMACY IS AN ISSUE>

I am the son and the heir of a wandering man & I think I will always hold it against him despite my desire to forgive; but well into my second decade of (het) marriage I know the mismatched libido thing pretty well & so do most of my (male) friends; but then again we're all still fathers of relatively young children & I dunno, things are just hard all around (& yes I mean that with a sad smirk)---BUT these are days of other joys too & what I understand about my father now is a rejection of the maturity to embrace those other joys, & yeah "it's just blowjobs" or whatever but the devil's in the details.

INTIMACY, grrr.

chrisv2010, maybe you addressed it previously and sorry if i missed it but why are you sticking it out in this marriage?

Having a caregiver/patient blanket thrown over the top of what started out as a spouse/lover/friend relationship fucking sucks. Because that blanket is very heavy, hard to move and hard to ignore, even on days when it's not specifically needed.

for my son...which is not the right reason.

i think scott's advice about physical contact is a good one and i think constant friendly but zingy bantering is also maybe underrated.

you gotta watch the zinging though. i am a very zingy person and i am always checking myself cuz if you zing about the same thing for a long time that shit gets really old. but generally humor is great to share and give and take and all that. definitely. helps reinforce the us-vs-world feeling. and diffuses tense situations. you know.

leaving a relationship seems a much easier response than cheating in a lot of these cases, in the long run, but hey that's easily said.

Wow at hats story and lots of other stuff in the meantime btwc

yea scott's advice is absolutely OTM -- my bf has lately been having back issues that require us to sleep separately but i require cuddles daily. i can go weeks w/o sex (and have) as long as we can at least smooch & spoon a little.

i'm a very touchyfeel partner and i really sympathize w/ those itt who go without -- if i didn't have the touching i'd probably gain the 80 lbs as i tried to soothe my soul with rare bacon cheeseburgers. :(

Zora - eventually the other person did come around but by that time it was over in my head. I had to stop wanting to be intimate w him in order for it not to be destroyingly painful to be near him all the time and be rejected. End of.

Leaving a relationship is easier but for many people its actually kind of hard, in practical terms - especially if have been living together. Leaving the family home, finding a new place to live, starting everything over - again the reasons mentioned above where people have lost their spark or whatever, its the same thing, if they've felt a bit ground down - to regain that spark to start over. And then fear, and guilt and all the rest

^^^

In my family, we don't make commitments we aren't willing to keep. But it's not cheating if you're not married. Those are my family values. So, it's like, deal with my family or I'll find someone else. With glee. My family isn't here to support someone's career either. We are very traditional and you only get married when your family and your spouse's family have mutual interests. My family comes first and if you have problems adapting to that you are out.

Personally I don't think it's cheating if you're not married. Sorry about the hetero bias here.

And what is it if you're in a relationship? "Angle shooting"?

Personally I don't think it's cheating if you're not married

You'd be so much in the minority with that opinion that it'd be about as credible to the person you'd be cheating on as "it's not cheating if it's not emotional" or "it's not cheating if it's within five miles of a tiger".

I guess I should feel VERY fortunate/grateful to not have this mismatched libido problem (at least, not yet)...

otoh this:

BUT these are days of other joys too & what I understand about my father now is a rejection of the maturity to embrace those other joys

is still very u&k to my sensibility. imho part of getting older as a man is realizing that you don't really need to be banging lots of hot women all the time - like, there's more important shit, and if that's what yr fixated on you are basically just an emotionally stunted loser.

i'm often tempted to find someone else without glee, but that's more of a tv scheduling issue

In my family, there is problem...

Laurel - I think I've been striving for that for a long time; I really can't understand why I can't make that shft, but the attraction just won't lie down and *die*.

i tried to soothe my soul with rare bacon cheeseburgers.

My soul totally susceptible to the above, that might just work.

masturbation isn't really a problem solver here - more often than not 'sex' is really a stand-in for 'knowing that my partner desires and loves me above all others and thinks i'm special'. is that always rational? probably not. but 2 years is a really long time for zora to go without getting that from her partner, even if he is sick, and then for him to be like 'you know it's not personal, right?' seems pretty glib imo.

(xps to elmo)

i dont wanna go out and bang another woman, i want to just bang my wife.

i again have not had sex with my wife in two years.

Z - I don't know what mental exercises you've already done so pls bear with me, but have you thought about WHY you want him back? Like does it feel like winning? Or is it that it's preferable to giving up the dream/visions you had of your future together? Because ime once you make that first step you will not be sorry.

Nobody requires us to be saints who sacrifice ourselves so that someone else doesn't feel bad. You are not disposable.

Exactly so, Chris. I'm not interested in anyone else, although Cherry Garcia is helping me out a little.

"are married ppl incapable of masturbation? if your sex drive exceeds your partner's maybe you DO need to cheat on them with yourself"

i am VERY pro-masturbation, but for real, this can make you feel pretty lonely too if you live with someone you love and want to be with!

i mean, there are so many reasons why someone could be unhappy in a marriage or relationship. its usually never one thing. but with cheating i think loneliness and lack of intimacy is a big factor.

What if it's not really cheating, what if you realized you made a mistake, that there were class and life history issues that made someone too different? Like I said, there is no commitment if you're not married, no one deserves any guarantee or emotional loyalty at all.

If they're not making you happy, they are out. Sometimes you wake up one day and realize that someone is truly a terrible emotional manipulator and won't confront that. The only way to teach them is to walk out and take up with someone else, never to return. They need to be taught not to let people down and hurt people.

at this point rubbing my boner on her ear would suffice for crying out loud.

EAR JOBS ABOUND.

trollololol

It's 100% legit to say "I will not remain celibate the rest of my life and you have no business demanding that I should."

man chris it sounds like you need to get out of this

altho you have no obligation to listen to me and I am not an expert, just a jerk on the internet

of course it is wmc! But how do you act on that?

Laurel, yes, and it is an unpleasant smoosh of love and fear. I sacrificed a lot for this guy, on top of that I have waited a long time for him to be better, he is now almost better (physically) and I want to, what, recoup my investment sounds horrible, but if I walk away now I'll have given up most everything that mattered to me, twice over.

I want our relationship to fulfil the promise it had at the outset, that circumstances have robbed us of.

Luckily we don't have kids, or years & years of marriage behind us. I'm feeling for others on this thread more than myself right now. The hat thing... the hat thing is kind of a get out of jail free card at this stage. If his sexual interest in me revolves more around hats than who I am, we are so not gonna be lovers.

gazillion xposts

i realize the masturbation comment was overly glib, but self-love is everlasting imo.

I want our relationship to fulfill the promise it had at the outset, that circumstances have robbed us of.

All the times I have said this to myself, and sadly there have been more than one, I have been deeply wrong and fatally optimistic/in denial about exactly what constituted the circumstances.

Yep, quite prepared for that to be the case. This is way, way OT and TMI, but what the hell, I don't get to talk about this, like, ever... After 2 years of pain, depression, no-sexxing, fights, he decided that though he wants to be with me he no longer wants to have a family. So the sex thing is moot-ish, b/c I am about to embark on fertility treatments, alone. Staying with him for the moment = far less stress than breaking up, moving out, prob changing cities again. This is going to be a slow process; could be many months before it succeeds or fails. We get on fine as flatmates. He definitively friend-zoned himself with the hat remark, so from now on I'm keeping my frustrations to myself (+ ILX).

PS or not even ILX. I think I am OK with not talking about this any more for now.

my wife and i went through fertility treatments.

i don't even know what to say, but the situations people are in and describing on this thread are seriously heartbreaking. i hope you all find some better way to live, whether it's an improving situation or bailing.

^^^ I can really empathize with some of the posts on this thread but, man, some it is just next level heartbreaking stuff and it makes me really sad. What Goole just said is otm and I wish you the same.

i would suggest that as difficult as it may be, the latter option would be perhaps for the best. painful in the short term, but the correct decision when looked back on later in life. to remain in unhappiness because of the unknown future doesn't really seem to be the choice one should be forced to make. i cannot imagine, for example, that chris' wife is happy either. as a child of divorce, i have to say that the first few months were utterly miserable and surreal but after that initial period it became completely normal (for better or for worse.) at this point, years later, i realize that if my parents got back together a few years later it would have creeped me out more than the divorce did.

my boy is young enough to not really know...but its me knowing. i dont wanna talk about it either...forget it.

just breaks my heart.

Z - I understand taking what seems like the less stressful way, I really do, because ILX watched me do it for like half of 2010. In fact it was not less stressful in the long run, it was shit. It was also possibly unusually bad and I hope your life is not like that at all. But don't discount the fact that you want to be in a good mental and physical place for the baby you want to have. For yourself, for your likelihood of conception, and for the fetus that you want to result -- you should be safe and happy if you can, even if that means being happy alone.

I can't find a reference online but my mother has been going on about some study about babies that were gestated during wartime in an occupied country and how many of them were emotionally unstable as grown people even if they got out of that environment very early.

Like, from their mothers' fear and stress while they were carrying. How can you try to work through something you don't even remember? At least things that happen to us in our conscious lives are fodder for future therapy.

Yeah Laurel that's actually what some of the people I work with are researching - fetal origins are adult disease and you're right - there have been studies that have shown that babies conceived and carried to term by emotionally unstable mothers or mothers under extreme stress have a much much higher likelihood of having emotional issues themselves regardless of the circumstances under which they were raised. A lot of this research is still in its infancy (heh heh) but they're finding some really strong links there.

fetal origins OF adult disease

(totally an aside but this is also one of the MANY good reasons why the US needs to create a federal maternity leave law - it's absolutely ridiculous that we don't have one imo)

Don't get me started on that one! ^^