darren aronofsky's black swan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmraonoCMkI

yeah this will be a fun one

will it?

Looks like Single White Female.

just happy to see aronofsky back in "wtf is going on right now" mode

and bloodshot eyes natalie gave me the heebie jeebies

single winged female

(Single White Female + Gaslight) x Fatal Attraction?

Thought this was going to be something do with Black Swan theory. It still might, who knows?

Can't go wrong with Vincent Cassel, I guess.

K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S /

xp lol i thought that too--i was like first moneyball and now this?

I love the trailer, so creepy.

so is there something actually supernatural going on here or is nat port gonna be revealed to be lol crazy or is this gonna be one of those "crazy person is out to get protagonist but no one believes them" movies?

yeah I think that's the movie

Not supernatural, according to Aronofsky - just headfucks galore.

i suspect this is gonna be a "Crazy person is out to get crazy protagonist" movie

This is looking suitably batshit, I wanna see it.

so it's mila kunis making out with nat port? um probably gonna see this

omg all these reviews, i'm so excited!

“A perfect film that blends The Red Shoes with Antichrist, via Cronenberg.”

I keep reading comparisons to Repulsion, and I love Repulsion.

this can't be any freakier than just watching a ballet

It's Swan Lake + Showgirls.

also seeing lots of argento (esp Suspiria and Opera) in the trailer

nat's reflection turning around to look at her is the best part of this

trailer

think it's a 'one of them doesn't rly exist' movie

i thought i read that there was an actual taleb 'black swan' movie in production.

will youtube the bits with mila kunis and natalie portman kissing.

if you were to ask traders before the financial crisis whether you would have seen kunis portman makeout,
they would have said it couldn't happen, that there were breakers in place to prevent it from ever happening.

It's Swan Lake + Showgirls.

― like an ant to a crumb (DavidM), Thursday, September 2, 2010 2:50 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

this line sold me tbh

but this looks kinda bleh. I feel like I've already seen the movie from just watching the trailer. glad to see natalie portman has wisely used her free time to not take acting classes.

think it's a 'one of them doesn't rly exist' movie

I noticed that Portman and Kunis characters look quite similar, at least in the trailer, so I had the same thought. But surely the "main character doesn't exist" twist has become so tired after 6th Sense and Fight Club that Aronofsky wouldn't use it?

lol philip nunez

preview looks great, but yeah, i'm worried now that y'all have incepted me with the idea that it will revolve around some lame identity/reality twist. still looks great.

Anyone else read the script? There was a version of it on the BFI website for a while.

yeeks. not gonna look at this thread again until i see it.

(which kinda stands to reason)

No spoilers before the movie is in the cinemas, please.

http://i.imgur.com/UMT1u.jpg

seeing it on friday

the movie will be in at least one cinema on that day!

I have a good feeling about this one, based on post-Venice buzz and the trailer/images out there. Unfortunately only out over here in Feb of next year, although I'm sure history mayne will be in there before us.

Via Karina Longworth:

BLACK SWAN = balletsploitation. Should be in Midnight Madness. Total trash, but so fun.

Sounds brilliant!

really psyched for this

Darren Aronofsky - the new Ken Russell?

i was kind of into this

it's a really pretentious melodramatic ballet psychodrama

but like, if you're going to make a melodramatic ballet psychodrama, i feel like you are allowed to go all-out and get as pretentious as you like. i'd rather see this kind of treatment given a ballet movie than like, a movie about Drug Addiction and Society.

pretty fun to watch. portman is wicked.

Is she necked?

no kinda wimps out on that

but like, if you're going to make a melodramatic ballet psychodrama, i feel like you are allowed to go all-out and get as pretentious as you like. i'd rather see this kind of treatment given a ballet movie than like, a movie about Drug Addiction and Society.

― snrub-n-tug (s1ocki), Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:04 AM (15 hours ago) Bookmark

sooo otm

http://blogs.indiewire.com/thompsononhollywood/2010/09/15/interview_darren_aronofsky_talks_black_swan/

(there is a spoiler right at the end, but it's flagged up)

Total trash, but so fun.

grinds teeth

smiles

s10ck otm

I was actually cackling evilly when it was over.

David Edelstein: "a Roman Polanski remake of Showgirls"

(doesn't think that's good)

I havent had time to watch my screener.

That makes it sound like my dream movie! I will have to do a compare/contrast w/Burlesque, which I should finally be seeing on Friday.

ya that's a pretty accurate descriptiopn

(in a good way)

OMG, that's the first blurb I've seen on the movie that makes me want to see it.

(Choosing to ignore Ed's 2-star review for the moment.)

I'm first in line.

are you posting from the line?

Morbs (and any other crits), try to hold out for a theater showing unless you have a huge TV.

I thought of u first, Eric :)

I've got a big spoiler-ish question, but I'll wait a bit to ask it.

Saw this yesterday and mostly enjoyed it, especially the parts that resembled The Wrestler than Requiem.

Been thinking about how the Portman character here has a lot of parallel's with The Social Network's Zuckerberg -- both "types" (maybe even diagnostically so), ambitious and stunted, that are familiar from life but not from literature or film.

Before seeing it, I had scanned the (annoying) NY Times review without reading it closely and thought I had read a third-act spoiler, but Darghis meant the real Web, not a movie one:
Mr. Aronofsky is simultaneously telling that story straight, playing with the suffering-artist stereotype and having his nasty way with Nina, burdening her with trippy psychodrama and letting her run wild in a sexcapade that will soon be in heavy rotation on the Web.

was sold out everywhere last nite :(

hopefully I have more luck today

try to hold out for a theater showing unless you have a huge TV.

in a perfect world, sure; I have a list to make this week, no time.

Best scene is when Natalie Portman quits the ballet and takes a job behind the deli counter of a supermarket but cracks when recognized as the former lead ballerina.

darren aronofsky's boar's head

argh the girl really wants to see this but I think it looks terrible

best scene is when natalie portman sees herself in the mirror then shes not sure if its really herself then she smashes the mirror but then youre not sure if its real then what is real anyway then the mirror is not smashed so it wasnt real then or wasnt it, natalie portman and the girl from the 70s show are hot ballerinas

no j/k best scene is when they lez out

is there a lot of actual ballet? I don't mind mirror smashing I guess, but scary ballet movie just sounds like the worst thing in the world

lol i didnt see this shit, what do u take me for

damn you're lucky

I'm probably gonna have to

Vincent Cassel will change your mind.

try to think of something u know yr girl h8s to see in movies like spiders crawling up someones nose or whatever and tell her this movie has that

Anatomy of a Scene short video

that's a good idea actually xp

try to think of something u know yr girl h8s to see in movies like spiders crawling up someones nose or whatever and tell her this movie has that

Or tell her Mila Kunis is in it.

in fact read the entire cast list to her

tell her its abt that pop economics book, mila kunis plays the bald bearded fund manager

these are all good suggestions

was also considering having her watch 'pi'

that should do it

have her eat a 'pie'

here eat this pi

listen to this requiem. it is for a dream, iirc

act really excited to about 'hard lesbian' scenes

to about

lots of good strategies but I'm going w/ 'pi and pie night'

wait nvm that means I have to watch pi too

maybe it should be 'pi or pie night'

this looks as camp-awesome as Notes on a Scandal.

This is supposed to have the Tree of Life trailer before it.

I really really want to see this now.

about to see this in an hour, will report back! it sounded so delightfully over the top..

I just saw the Youtube video of the Perfect Blue/Requiem For A Dream homage scene a few weeks ago, and then read that this is heavily indebted. Is it? I like the idea of Perfect Blue/Red Shoes.

i don't know! i haven't seen any aronofsky other than 'pi'.

anyway, CLASSIC

it's kind of amazing how aware he is of the subtle ways women undermine other women. obviously it isn't subtle by the end! but it wouldn't work so well if it didn't start out that way. also it wasn't any trouble at all to me to realize which scenes weren't real.

i saw this movie tonight and honestly liked it a lot -- but i could seriously look at natalie portman for hours and hours and be happy looking at different parts of her face
it was campy enough and vincent c didn't even seen to go fully over the top sleazy like he could
can we talk about noni? did i miss this part of the thread?

obvs seen = seem
love that vc but his fake teeth contrasted strongly with natalie's noticeably normal real teeth

This is supposed to have the Tree of Life trailer before it.
it did
if the trailer is to be believed it appears to be a movie about how children make our lives meaningful and also poisonous gas

Thought it looked like it was about how children with gas make our lives poisonous.

girl brought up seeing the movie like 3x tonight

when I told her about pi she said it also sounded good

doomed

deal

Time to break it off.

Or else compromise and tell her she has to go watch your favorite movie next week: The Facts of Life Go to Australia.

no way dude -- this movie was totally enjoyable!
i hope you're all kidding -- and I have seen The Facts of Life Go to Australia. That's where they meet Pippa, the annoying late-season show reviver

anybody who breaks up with his girlfriend because she wants to see this (good) movie, prob doesnt deserve to have one.

Is that the season where they had Pippa and Jo lez out in the back room of the candy shop?

iirc by that time it was called "Over Our Heads" and was mostly novelty items (and also candy, but stuff like lunchboxes! and jellybean containers!) -- I don't remember any lezzing out, but who knows about what happened in the back room?!? i hated pippa.

when I said 'doomed' I meant me not my relationship, cause I prob don't have a choice at this point

xp - she was worse than andy! but this movie? it's waaay better than that.

iatee you will like this movie in spite of your feelings atm

Tbh, you sound kind of like a shitty boyfriend. Sometimes you have to do stuff you don't want to do, its called compromise and part of a grown-up relationship.

dang y'all it's also a good movie

who has actually seen this movie? can we talk about noni!!? she looked so totally disheveled. i realize that this faded flower look was part of her role, but she seemed to really inhabit that side of her character. her hair was in her face for every scene, and barbara hershey got way more closeups than noni did.

it was hard to even recognize her -- recognizing her was part of the fun tbh -- and she was the helen lawson but didn't even get to whip off her wig
what gives

I understand that jon! which is why in the end I'm gonna see this dreadful movie and not break up with my long-term gf!

but also cause the pi strategy didn't work

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd120/hipsterrunoff/photographs/hro/63dc0fe1.jpg

i saw this movie and liked it so

likely

So here's my ***SPOILER*** (though vague). Given what's real and what's possibly not real, this is kind of a hardcore movie about method acting. As in: are there any real external events that allow her to fully realize the role she wants to play, or does she (as Lee Strasberg and others have trained actors to do) just conjure the emotions necessary to play the role? Like, is this a movie in which no external events actually contribute to her transformation, assuming that she wasn't actually fingerbanged in the back of a taxicab?

Like, Stanislavski defined acting as "behaving truthfully under imaginary circumstances." And a standard approach actors take is, say, "at the top of this scene, imagine that you've just found out that your brother -- you and your real brother -- that you've just found out that your brother died." Or: to play this scene, imagine that you find out that your wife/husband has been cheating on you. Now play it. That may be all she does in this movie.

Wish Mila Kunis was featured in all the ads instead of Natty Portman. She's way hotter.

I like Pi, never get the h8 for it.

P.S. I'm now imagining Darren Aranofsky's The Facts of Life, with a decrepit, creepy, painkiller-addicted Mrs. Garrett and Jo having tats and toys.

What about Natalie and Tootie? Exiled for being comic relief?
Whether or not this is a big statement about method acting or a story about ballerinas losing their shit, it's still v enjoyable.

I don't know anything about ballet but in video above Natalie Portman does not dance very convincingly imo. She looks sort of awkward and stiff.

Can't wait for Aronofsky film about drunkorexia, btw.

xp She looks stiff in the rehearsal scenes, but once it gets to the final performance it's like totally WOW.

i believe that is kind of the story arc of the film

:p

Or maybe it was just the amazing camerawork and music papering over the flaws..

didnt they jus like cgi her face on an actual dancer - feel like i heard that

no

yeah p sure that did slki

but her head is SUPPOSED to look 1.5x too big for the body it's on

She definitely did 90% of the dancing but used the CGI face thing for the most demanding scenes.

lol this is hilarious and insane, a++ exploitation for sure

aronofsky will NEVER do better than this

yeah this is totally unsettling

i like that everyone is calling this polanski + showgirls (which it is) but its also basically just pi but instead of math ballet and instead of jews hot chicks and instead of a brain in the subway mila kunis going down on you

who has actually seen this movie? can we talk about noni!!? she looked so totally disheveled. i realize that this faded flower look was part of her role, but she seemed to really inhabit that side of her character. her hair was in her face for every scene, and barbara hershey got way more closeups than noni did.

― ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Sunday, December 5, 2010 1:17 AM (18 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah she was like unrecognizable. good in her scenes tho, i flipped when she started stabbing herself in the face, FLIPPED i tell u

totally, i flipped and kind of screamed

i really like this movie (even tho i have issues with it! but i have issues with all of aronofsky's movies - they are trumped by my fascination with aronofsky's fascinations)

(lol braggin/o_O - i am actually wearing my black swan hoodie right now b/c i wore it to yoga earlier today (media swag hahaa))

wearing it... 2 cover up ur rash

i spent the whole movie trying to figure out which character didnt exist, and was so sure it was the mom, and then it turned out that they all existed :-/

none of them exist max, shape up

it has bell sleeves for ingenue-like hiding of hands
xps

haha

t/s: the part when winona rider stabs her face vs. the part when natalie portman peels her finger skin off

the best moment in the movie is when she's in the elevator and looks down and SHE's holding the scalpel

oh and the masturbating/mom sleeping "scary reveal" shot is probably the best thing DA has ever ever done

haha yeah the "mom in the room" moment is basically the scariest moment of the entire movie

really inspired moment imo

lot of crotch-stroking in this movie

i squirmed uncomfortably and stifled screams at all those scenes holy geez
mom in room scene definitely freakiest - lol psychothriller getting to teh heart of our real fears

lol this movie was awesome.

lot of crotch-stroking in this movie

― max, Sunday, December 5, 2010 7:55 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

surprised you weren't kicked out of the theater tbh

loved this movie

I never saw it but I know I'll hate it so I guess I thought I would post

strokonofsky

and then i turned... AND MY MOM WAS SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO ME IN THE THEATER... AND THEN BLOOD STARTING POOURING INTO THE WATER

glad there is finally some truth on this thread

it's not like i don't have problems with this movie, but you put a bunch of women in a ballet movie and there are going to be problems (unless you're wiseman, and even then?)

STILL fun range of emotions to be felt here, and so many crotches to be felt as well

yeah, most of my issues with his movies are abt his treatment of women...

had a big argument with some other crits when i saw this about whether this movie has a sense of humour about itself. i say it does. (main example: the big monstrous dude saying "hey." backstage in the middle of the madness)

i guess the reason is works is because it's campy, and for me camp trumps reality and basically always wins.

somehow i think that relates to the method acting comment way above and not taking everything so seriously, and yet at the same time, being totally and completely dedicated: i was thinking about this too, as his films all deal in transformation, specifically physical but totally tied with mental, and so the main actors must transform their bodies significantly and go through the rigour of that process (hm, he's also into presenting altered versions of known actors, esp those we haven't seen in a while). so, it's not method acting but it seems like a deeper investment than a lot of films would ask of actors - and we're aware of this when watching. also interesting: aronofsky actually said to press that he's not a fan of method acting and can't deal with method actors.

xp

overly serious/sincere reviews of this are hilarious

dedicated to camp too - only way camp is pulled off imo!
xp

(main example: the big monstrous dude saying "hey." backstage in the middle of the madness)

yes!!!! i'm pretty surprised at how many ppl seem to think that this is a "serious" movie in that way. represents a major breakthrough for aronofsky in terms of self-awareness.

women win with camp

earnest goes to camp: the significance of "the black swan" in darren aronofsky's filmography

hahaaa
i am never going back to school

Old man in audience, during subway scene where old man starts coming on to Portman: "That's me!"
Old man in audience after old man onscreen starts fondling himself: "That's not me."
VERY good to know.

lol

audience i saw this with laughed heartily a fair number of times. also woman behind me was shrieking a lot.

THAT WAS YOU

oh i laughed all the way through

had a big argument with some other crits when i saw this about whether this movie has a sense of humour about itself.

yeah, I agree it totally does. It's easily his least self-serious movie.

i am hoping this marks the dawn of a serious hag horror revival

thought Portman was great in this.

ya for some reason i keep coming back to the moment in the toilet stall where she calls barbara hershey to tell her she got the part...

argh s1ocki when is yr website going to be back online i am going crazy over here

i know, everyone is, twitter is gonna be the first to know

two years ago stacie ponder calls for hag horror revival to follow zombie and vampire trends
http://www.filmcritic.com/features/2008/11/hag-horror-movies/

please tell me this is finally happening
noni leading the charge

http://grab.by/7Kfj

it's not just you

:(

do u think mila kunis took ur site down to sabotage u

we're all sticking together in this - the gang's all on twitter. we're gonna make it thru

do u think mila kunis took ur site down to sabotage u

― max, Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:33 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark

i don't even want to "go there"

maybe its all in our head, maybe twitter doesnt exist

i wont think that i cant think that

It's easily his least self-serious movie.

― Simon H., Monday, 6 December 2010 02:42 (7 hours ago) Bookmark

I couldn't do a precise enough gis of a tree growing out of hugh jackman so instead i'll just rmde

at what exactly - we're saying it's LESS self-important, shouldn't a DA hater be happy about that? (i was never a fan for those reasons tbh)

I'm cool with this movie. The world needs more frigid characters imo.

Between this and The Social Network, it's the year of the frigid character.

http://mydisguises.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Mr_Freeze.jpg

It's Natalie's upper body but the star dancer from New York City Ballet's lower body. The Times wrote a big thing about it.

Friend of a friend on Facebook: "Portman's the new Kinski. The only question is whether she's going for Klaus or Natassja..."

This is the equivalent of a Merchant-Ivory film for high-end trashmongers.

Mila Kunis kinda saved it for me, a la Armie Hammer in The Social Network.

Please tell me audiences are laughing through the last 20 minutes.

I have one friend who has seen this; she loved it and said that she basically laughed through the entire movie.

30 rock black swan gag was killing me last night. especially that duet at the end. so beautiful.

I wish Will Forte had been the Black Swan in the movie now.

This is the equivalent of a Merchant-Ivory film for high-end trashmongers.

YES.

Is that a gold-plated paper-stabber you're holding?

Was really rooting for Nat-Port to sprout full-blown black feathers.

she did

covered in 'em

Sober realists can step this way for the Wiseman ballet doc

I have one friend who has seen this; she loved it and said that she basically laughed through the entire movie.

― BO (DJP), Friday, December 10, 2010 12:32 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

yup

hoping Anne Hathaway does ribald parody in tutu on Oscars

Hoping Franco wears swan outfit at Oscars.

also needed to pursue Carrie parallels with mass slaughter of Lincoln Center audience finale

we'll probably just get mike myers in one

xp

and expected last twist that Nat was dancing on Shutter Island.

personally i was hoping big bird would show up but

Please tell me audiences are laughing through the last 20 minutes.

The whole movie, actually. In the good way. I presume you did too, because you're not humorless. Are you?

Sober realists can step this way for the Wiseman ballet doc

He has one for people to be boring about The Fighter with, too! He's become quite the documentarian ambulance chaser.

o that's right

looking forward to his 2011 offering Transformer Home Base

Well sitting home alone I laughed at it maybe 3 times. It kinda sucks, being a horror film and all.

If the Academy gets it into the Best Picture 10, it won't be bcz they think it's funny.

it's not actually a horror film.

it's a flamboyant bloody extravagant psychodrama about BALLET ffs

Frederick Wiseman's Garden Of Eden Tree

psychoSEXUAL psychodrama

I did not recognize the writers' names -- 3 credits seem to indicate this was kicking around for years before Aronofsky got hold of it, yeah?

apparently he first talked to portman about it in like 2001

so these writers all worked w/ him? or preceded 2001?

I am adding D.A. to the list of directors whose first two films are likely to remain their best (Darren, meet Sofia).

ew this and the wrestler are so much better than "requiem for a dream," i mean come on, you want unintentional comedy

i'll take a pretentious, ridiculous extravaganza about ballet any day over a pretentious, ridiculous, totally self-serious extravaganza about ADDICTION in AMERICA

xxpost Sofia, knock boots with Burton.

The Wrestler : straight guys and wish-they-were straight guys :: Black Swan : gay guys and frigid guys and maybe women too, but who asks them?

i really liked requiem for a dream. it was exactly like the book. which would seem to be a hard thing to pull off.

I only found Requiem ridiculously overwrought in the last 10 minutes.

cmon Eric, Burton's best movies are Mars Attacks and Sweeney Todd.

i finally saw the wrestler recently. i got kinda bored.

a few scenes aside yeah it's pretty boring.

about as boring as "Wild Orchid"

i really liked requiem for a dream. it was exactly like the book. which would seem to be a hard thing to pull off.

really? didn't jibe with my memory of the book at all really

that hallucinatory quality. the feel of it. i felt like it was pretty faithful. and just as weird, really. most hollywood types would have totally hacked it up.

requiem sucks except for this part

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa5z77EI8y0

wrestler owned, gonna see this tonight or tomorrow i think

I know it followed the major plot points pretty faithfully, the film just seemed so over-hyper to me. it gave me a headache.

gonna take a date and give her a leering wink when mila kunis is knuckle-deep in natalie portman http://www.gmodforums.com/images/sasmilies/emot-kiddo.gif

lol @ ass2ass, most ridiculous scene of the 00s?

Realest scene.

:O

i think we've all been there.

Seeing this tmrw night - pretty glad to hear it's got some Wrestler in it since I loved that and kind of hated requiem.

its kind of like wrestler 2: lady wrestler

sweet

Red Shoes/Repulsion is about right, except those are good.

lol Morbs entered this thread. he's wrong, btw

this movie blew

Liked it just as much the second time around. I'm more than just cool with this movie.

Almost walked out because the trailers thought I was the type of person that would be interested in whatever the fuck Tree Of Life is

OK so it HAS to have a sense of humor about itself and Slock's example of the monster dude saying hey is a good example but also the symbolism was so heavy handed throughout that I can't help but think that was to mirror visual clues in ballet and also the world as Portman's character saw it - in sort of black and white, evil v. good terms, right?

I mean things like Mila Kunis being the bad girl with the eyeliner, drugs and black wing tattoos were just so. I'm sure that was intentional but it sort of annoyed me a bit. I thought a lot of the stuff he did to show how fucked up ballet can be and how stressful it can be on the dancers mind/bodies was actually pretty similar to the way he showed the brutality of wrestling but I liked that a lot in both movies. Also have to say, and maybe I haven't seen her in a long time, bu

t damn Barbara Hershey done gone fucked up her face. Too many fillers or something. NAGL.

RIP Whiney xposts

verdict: this is fucking awesome

portman's really good, better than i expected - the scene where she calls her mom to tell her she got the part was when i thought to myself 'wow she is knocking this out of the park' - its not a super fleshed out role but its a really demanding one at the same time and she pretty much nails it. also i think this is the movie where i realized mila kunis is a really good actress.

i like how the movie just simmers for the first half w/little hints of crazy then goes full freakout on u at some point with the door slamming and face stabbing and bird legs - this kind of movie's been done enough times that you can kinda anticipate most of the beats, but it was pulled off really well and just flowed nicely imo.

part where birdsuit guy goes 'hey' backstage killed me

i could say some nitpicky stuff about aronofsky's style but it's stupid and nitpicky and its a good movie who even cares

its just a super fun cool movie and if you dont like it you're probably some stupid crumbbum

also the ending is sorta weirdly uplifting

did anyone make a brundleswan joke yet

superfuncool americanidiots

lol

btw, im almost positive that the creepy guy on the subway was mr. ass-to-ass from requiem for a dream

somehow I assumed it was Aronofsky's dad

portman's really good, better than i expected - the scene where she calls her mom to tell her she got the part was when i thought to myself 'wow she is knocking this out of the park' -

ya me too - her best scene for sure

The mom calling scene was great, yeah. Also agree about Kunis being a good actress - I had no idea. I've been thinking about it since we left the movie theater and, even though there were things about it that bugged me, that in and of itself has to be a good sign.

Almost walked out because the trailers thought I was the type of person that would be interested in whatever the fuck Tree Of Life is

― mercy mercy me, that beanfield milagro (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, December 11, 2010 11:52 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's so hard being you

must be terrible for ppl to think you like malick films :(

hahaha, I loved the New World! This just looked like the existentialism Hallmark Special. Obviously I'll have to see the movie to make a real opinion or at least wait until Morbs sees it

wish u had walked out during the trailers then maybe u never would have posted on this thread

i keep telling people this movie is "hilarious" and they keep going "really?"

it's worth more than just to lolz imo

I'm glad you put hilarious in quotes, max, bcz this film is "very funny"

Yep, this movie is TBfuckingS.

i dont know what that means but it sounds good

turn-based strategy

turn-based FUCKING strategy

Fuck fucking you.

chill dude

said Barbara Hershey to her plastic surgeon

xp

Chill fucking dude?

something to aspire to

You wrote the book, I'm sure. Send me a copy.

when you're done being butthurt, wanna explain what TBS stands for?

do u get TBS in canada? their motto is 'very funny'

Yep, I'll do that first thing when I'm done being butthurt.

*slowly backs out of room as eric seethes in his overstuffed armchair*

omg, slock, did you have a lez fantasy about me? you totally did! was I good?

Lez wet dream iirc

*takes final jump off thing on stage and falls down in slow motion as everyone else in thread gathers around to congratulate me*

I bet M Night Shyamalan is pissed that this movie beat him to imaginary cunnilingus.

i have it on good word that he IS

He's actually stabbing himself in the face right now.

rip slocki

admittedly that was Winona's funniest scene since she was tortured by Vincent Gallo in The House of the Spirits

xp

That's the spirit!

I did not recognize the writers' names -- 3 credits seem to indicate this was kicking around for years before Aronofsky got hold of it, yeah?

A few weeks ago, I read an earlier draft that I found online. The mother is, instead, more of a den mother, who rents a kind of rooming house for dancers. The Winona character is murdered before the movie begins. More a mild mystery than this, though it still has some essential scenes (back-of-the-taxicab).

This was good fun, but I like said in the detrius thread I can't believe this high camp is up for Oscars.

The audience -- a packed matinee -- loved it; they knew they were getting A-grade trash. Except for the old woman behind me who gasped when Kunis uttered her lick pussy line.

Most fun would-be Oscar nominee in years though (most nominees are failed camp).

OTM

"failed camp" = Notes on a Scandal

They did not send me one of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38B5Jk2M5J8&feature=player_embedded

I wasn't cool/old-media enough to get that either.

failed camp = http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517EYGECHNL.jpg

I didn't get a music box either. I just got a black feather and a white feather in an envelope.

saw this, portman was good! wish i knew more about movies, but winona stabbing herself in the face was like o_0 lol

totally

the scene where she calls her mom to tell her she got the part was when i thought to myself 'wow she is knocking this out of the park' -

had the same reaction 2 that scene. liked this a good deal more than the wrestler

portman is really good in this, I'm sure she'll get a nomination, it's the first time I've seen her act convincingly since The Professional, frankly. The phone call was great and her final transformation into the Black Swan was pretty awesome too. the movie on the whole is obviously way over the top heavy handed metaphor and camp, but it was never not entertaining.

At our screening I sat behind an entire row of young asian girls, a few of whom brought their own Pillow Pets, who would NOT look at the screen during the masturbation scene. Also, some lady brought her 2 year old (was was thankfully silent, probably because he was being TRAUMATIZED). Weird showing.

I'm sure she'll get a nomination

She's currently the front-runner, in fact.

This thread is perfect

Anyway, I enjoyed the movie for the most part. Like ENBB, though, I was a bit annoyed at the symbolism, and once reality and fantasy became indistinguishable in the final act, I had trouble investing myself in the emotional stakes, which felt evasive. But maybe I just wasn't entirely prepared for how fully the film ultimately distanced itself from reality and took on its own paranoid-dream logic. I kind of want to see it again, actually.

I came out of the movie thinking it wasn't that good - must be the script.

But then I read a review talking about Natalie being one note with a "who me?" character and it was the director's fault as much as Natalie's for letting that happen... I agreed. I guess you could say Natalie was a two note character when you take into account the final act. But the second note is just a bitchy version of the first note.

So here's my ***SPOILER*** (though vague). Given what's real and what's possibly not real, this is kind of a hardcore movie about method acting. As in: are there any real external events that allow her to fully realize the role she wants to play, or does she (as Lee Strasberg and others have trained actors to do) just conjure the emotions necessary to play the role? Like, is this a movie in which no external events actually contribute to her transformation, assuming that she wasn't actually fingerbanged in the back of a taxicab?

― would like a calmer set (Eazy), Sunday, December 5, 2010 1:43 AM Bookmark

I like this, not so much because I think this needs more WAS IT ALL REAL? twist stuff, but more because it suggests that this isn't about an uptight girl having to loosen up, but about tapping into "loosening up" as just another thing that she's trying to get PERFECT. I took the movie as being basically about that, but maybe I'm just reading that into the stock story...

too slow and boring to be funny-bad and wayyyy too safe to be exploitation

could have cut the middle hour of this movie out and it wouldn't have changed much

the girl (who was super excited to see it) came out pretty disappointed

funniest thing was the score, I think

kind of skeptical of arguments that accuse stuff of being "safe"

as the girl pointed out, if some actress who wasn't natalie portman were starring in this is there any way there wouldn't have been nudity? sex scenes hinted at an exploitation movie but...tame. same w/ the violence.

I mean this wasn't very far from being pg-13

Natalie Portman's not a woman, so it's all good.

i dunno, "we didnt see natalie portmans tits" isnt exactly uh the most cogent criticism imo

okay I'll stick with "this was really boring"

"Not seeing Natalie Portman's tits made the movie boring."

Not hearing Mila Kunis wondering about licking pussy would have made the movie boring.

as the girl pointed out, if some actress who wasn't natalie portman were starring in this is there any way there wouldn't have been nudity? sex scenes hinted at an exploitation movie but...tame. same w/ the violence.

― iatee, Sunday, December 19, 2010 8:20 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is such a weird criticism to me

saw this last night, was really great

also if u want to see tits, go watch a porno imo

well if ilxor likes it, I guess you guys win

I don't know if this was supposed to be hilarious, but I laughed my ass off and had a great time.

"slow and boring" doesnt scan for me, the movie flies by

otm, had my second viewing of this over the past week and I was struck by how fast it clipped along despite the (v. pronounced) repetitiveness.

Agreed. I've been known to get really antsy in the movie theater and have a pretty low tolerance for slow movies. After we left, I mentioned that I thought it was really paced and that I didn't even check my watch once which, for me, is a pretty big deal.

The film got longer every time I flashed back to all the other times each of Vincent Cassel's lines had been said by high-art impresarios in films throughout the ages.

(except maybe "You bit me")

is that what film critic PTSD is like?

kinda dig these

http://www.laboca.co.uk/LB3site/images/FI_BLACKSWAN_posters4.jpg

Oooh, those are v. pretty.

i would love all 4 of those even if i don't end up liking the film

yeah those are totally awesome
please

would you rather see that movie or this one

http://www.movieposterdb.com/posters/10_11/2010/1341188/l_1341188_018ea83c.jpg

oops
that was a poster for that stupid new reese witherspoon vehicle

she should stop designing cars

and get back to acting!

ha!

realized what the 'big bird' scene reminded me of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGQtltNSU78&t=36s

Those posters are amazing. I'd hang them in my apt.

are those legit posters?

I'd srsly buy one if so.

coz if they're some indie firm's spec project... :\

those are official international posters... the third one's my fav

I like them all esp as a set but the 3rd and 4th best individually.

"I'm pretty sure all gay arthouse fans will instantly love a film where a woman has murder fantasies, or masturbates and cries at the same time, or does creepy fetishistic lesbo stuff."

http://i55.tinypic.com/ae1l03.gif

This thread is perfect
― Carl (admrl), Sunday, December 19, 2010 6:17 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thanks bruv

NY Times article about shooting in HD included this:

...when it came time to get down and dirty in the New York subways (and without the requisite permits), Mr. Libatique switched to a couple of digital single-lens reflex Canon cameras: in other words still cameras, with video functionality, which are not much different from the kind you might use to load your iPhone up with shots of the new puppy.

Would not want to stumble across that scene on the subway.

Those posters are amazing. I'd hang them in my apt.

― ENBB, Monday, December 20, 2010 8:10 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah they're awesome!

Was very disappointed the masturbation scene didn't result in an actual climax. It seems American movies still can't deal with masturbation unless they put in a little joke at the end.

masturbation ending in climax so predictable

do u watch american porn? lotta climaxes there if u r hard up 4 one.

i dont know what planet u come from where ur mom being in the room while u "play wit urself" is a "little joke"

^Well the audience laughed.

Also, it's another movie where going to a dance club seems like entering the pits of hell. Who would actually want to go to these horrible clubs?

was funny that dude was like "ballet uhhh no"

Was very disappointed the masturbation scene didn't result in an actual climax. It seems American movies still can't deal with masturbation unless they put in a little joke at the end.

― Josefa, Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:34 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol

u really got us amurrcans figured out!

did you just? disgusting dude

Saw it this afternoon - meh. I'm with the few "slow and boring" folks upthread - 2nd act takes forever, whole thing was much too long. Some of the effects were quite nice though.

it's another movie where going to a dance club seems like entering the pits of hell.

well?

and how is it that Fox doesn't shell out for subway permits? musta seemed like shooting Pi to D.A.

Looking forward to watching this, I love "psycho-sexual dramas". Speaking of which, has anyone updated Salo to American-occupied Iraq? Now that's a movie someone really needs to make.

Lots of women running around screaming in this.

Dug this. Let myself forget initially that it was Aronofsky and that there would thus be freaky shit afoot. Can't decide if mom-in-the-room-during-masturbation or Winona freaking out and stabbing herself in the face was more disturbing. Totally camp, and aware of it, but hit its marks well, and stuck with me for the rest of the night.

kinda drunk but OMG LOVED THIS and yeah lolled my head off basically

key section early on for me was the swift triptych of (spoilers):

- crying in the bathroom / turns / WHORE ON THE MIRROR lol (need gif please)

- scene with mother and her disgusting squelch-squelch massive gross cake slicing sounds (MMM IT'S OUR FAVOURITE VANILLA, WITH STRAWBERRY FILLING) / hysterical throwing in garbage / eating off mother's finger (with more added squelch slurp sound) (sfx were brilliant throughout)

- cassel's "metamorphosis into err eevel twen" in schlock ham accent (was he always this bad or..?)

even after 3/4 of it i'dve been happy with all that nonsense but the finale just sent it ott into super classic territory

black swan more like black yawn amirite

no this was the most hysterically entertaining movie of the year

agreed, i'm just fronting.

btw this is the best ILE thread on a movie in a long time. nice work, everyone!

the finale just sent it ott into super classic territory

this is the max definition of "classic," right?

cinema is basically over

I don't have a problem enjoying a movie on a camp level but I really didn't see more than a laugh or two in this. if this could make people 'lol their head off' I can't imagine how you guys take ott campy movies.

really struggling w/ s1ocki's "this film is self-aware" take

also everyone i know IRL thinks this film is a v v serious achievement in cinematic wonderment

Mila Kunis strikes me as one of the most natural actresses of her generation. There wasn't a single thing she did in this that wasn't fantastic to me; I think she deserves more awards than Natalie Portman.

Winona Ryder stabbing herself in the face totally caught me off guard and was amazingly creepy.

Natalie Portman is winning an Oscar for this.

so much fun, r|t|c o|t|m (lol sorry, i'm drunk toooooooo)

i wish i were 16 again so this movie could shake me up. now i need to watch like IN VANDA'S ROOM or something to make sure I have a heart.

Kunis was particularly good. everything the ballet instructor said about her character is equally true of the actress. just totally effortless.

^^^also otm, i loved all the performances in this

http://grab.by/84rk

btw yall god bless award season

This sucked.

you said it was good fun earlier!

really struggling w/ s1ocki's "this film is self-aware" take

― gr8080, Saturday, December 25, 2010 9:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

also everyone i know IRL thinks this film is a v v serious achievement in cinematic wonderment

― gr8080, Saturday, December 25, 2010 9:12 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, if this was being touted as "arthouse ballet piranha 3D: THEY PLI´E @ U FACE" I would have probably gotten into it way more than the "serious Oscar-worthy psychological thriller nom nom nom smothered in kunis" everyone seems to think it is.

THEY PLI´E @ U FACE

^ grudging props 4 this

This movie is fun. Pay no attention to the Oscar buzz.

This was a lot of fun to watch but I think calling it "campy" or "hilarious" is indicative of intentionally distancing yourself from the movie.

There were parts that were funny but the movie wasn't hilarious. I guess if you don't care that Portman's character is going crazy, there's pretty much no story here for you.

I'm probably seeing this later in the week. I'm guessin' it'll be a lot like The Red Shoes, but with the centerpiece being a good chunk of Dracula: Pages From A Virgin's Diary.

HERE'S HOPIN'!

Surprised not to be reading parallels between this and The Social Network as 2010 coming-of-age stories.

they are both stylish nerd fanfiction if that's what you mean.

"I guess if you don't care that Portman's character is going crazy"
the movie doesn't waste any time getting you to empathize with her, other than the automatic assumption that you're supposed to empathize with her because she's natalie portman. character-wise she's about as relatable as eisenzuckerberg.

the movie does nothing to make you care about her character, but i think that works to its advantage when she dies - you're not sad, and it's actually sorta joyous that she gets to go out on top

most of what im hearing about this movie outside of ilx emphasizes how scary and creepy it is, this is the only place where people are going omg so funny - at the same time, everyone in the theater i was in was laughing a lot, and so was i, and it's a fun movie, so idk

they are both stylish nerd fanfiction if that's what you mean.

Nah, I meant that they're both set in the present and both have hyperambitious protagonists of the same age who are outside the norms of what is considered immature and mature.

I thought it had a lot of parallels with the new TRON movie in that both movies were about the pursuit of ~perfection~

I think the only time I chuckled was at that big black bird backstage.

i loled when she ran in her mom's room and all the drawings and paintings had cone alive and were screaming.

Yeah I laughed then too. I loved that actually.

the more i think about this movie, the more unsure I am about what I think of it. one minute I'd be loling at all the melodrama and then something like the finale of the 2nd act where she sprouts wings would happen and I'd actually get emotionally moved by it and then one minute later I'm loling at it again.

I guess that goes along with what I was saying about not being entirely prepared for the over-the-top campiness. I was totally into the movie as a "taut psychological thriller" or whatever, so that when scenes like that started to crop up, they felt like misfires. In that scene and also the one where Winona stabs herself in the face, I was half-cringing at how blatant the hallucinations had become. But maybe I was just misreading it from the beginning.

Maybe im just saying this cause i watched All That Jazz recently, but this movie should have shown more dancing imo. Or made the dancing it did show more interesting.

Ending v similar to All That Jazz come to think of it.

I enjoyed it. Being over-the-top and blatant is part of this style of movie. The first few scenes definitely set the tone for a 70s-80s European giallo/sexual thriller, so I appreciated the ridiculous melodrama of it all... if anything I probably would've been disappointed if it wasn't ridiculous to some degree.

You know what movie did "serious ish wrapped in self-aware lols" a lot better? Machete. Where's their Oscar?

"perfection is not just about control, it's also about letting go." -vincent cassel in the black swan

"the thing about perfection is that it's unknowable." -jeff bridges in tron legacy

what r ur thoughts on perfection?

Not everyone's seen the style of movie Aronofsky is calling out here, so it's probably easy to see things that are just genre cues as being important or out of place if you're expecting something else. I thought this was a movie purely in the spirit of indulgent, trashy fun; even the high-mindedness was cheap and enjoyable.

So I was talking to the friends I saw this with and was a little surprised that they didn't see anything campy/funny about it at all.

wasn't Natalie Portman supposed to star in a re-make of Susperia?

Would love to see black swan as done by Argento or Bava.

again - if this movie was in the spirit of indulgent, trashy fun then its problem was that it sucked and bringing enough indulgent, trashy fun

sucked at*

dan's 'but I think calling it "campy" or "hilarious" is indicative of intentionally distancing yourself from the movie.' the most otm half a sentence in this thread

Yeah I have a really hard time believing Aronofsky has ever set out to make anything fun.

xpost

i don't think i get it? we're supposed to approach it seriously and then conclude that it's a bad movie?

its ok to be invested in a campy/hilarious movie!! its possible to have a movie that hits both serious and funny emotional cues!!

i felt really invested in it but it is hilarious--maybe "campy" is too loaded? don't get "intentional distancing," no ones saying it's the room or something

i mean, I didn't even think it was supposed to be trashy/campy/funny until ILX said so. I thought it was a crappy, ham-handed, corny, goofy-as-fuck "psychological thriller." But I could see myself totally enjoying it if had encountered it using the s1ockimax method.

Also, I just saw Replusion for the first time which is like better than this times a billion

I came in expecting that fwiw and still thought it was a crappy psychological thriller (w/ two or three funny lines)

Well, it depends on what you think is fun. Some people like lurid mystery thrillers, so when Aronofsky hits those notes, if that's not your thing, you probably won't get much enjoyment from it. The scene with the mother and the cake, and their bizarre relationship in general - that's part of what made this movie work for me.

the cake scene was maybe the worst part of this movie

yeah i found many of the scenes ~chilling~ and i was invested in the thriller aspect or w/e, there were just a few good chuckles along the way - i used to hate aronofsky and was prepared to grumble my way through this movie and expected a lot of self seriousness, it's prob a good thing i read this thread before seeing it idk

btw has anyone mentioned how gorgeous the camera work is, especially in the dance sequences, the part where we finally meet her as the black swan (head pops into frame while she dances backwards) at the end gave me chills

the cake scene, all the shots of natalie looking bewildered and sweaty and the twirling camera, this stuff reminded me of requiem and when i saw the trailer i was like 'i'm so ready to hate this' - you could tell DA was just gonna go crazy with the fucked up feet and the crazy stressed out ballerina lifestyle like all he could think was UNGHHH BALLET CAN BE SO DARK AND GRITTY MAN, but it all just somehow worked

xp yeah it's beautifully shot--aronofsky is a fantastic technical filmmaker even when i hate his movies

I connected with the creepy and/or bizarre notes -- I like suspense films with lingering dread or simmering tension or things that "don't feel right" -- just not the more overt cheeseball-horror notes.

yeah the camera work during the parts where she's performing as the black swan was incredible. really enjoyed the camera work throughout.

I have a VHS copy of Pi that Tower Video ended up charging me $100 for that I'm still bitter about and feel like aronofsky owes me some good movies in order to make up for it. The more I think about this movie the more I like it and want to see it again esp after reading this thread and other people's criticisms/praises.

Everyone otm about the camera work esp in that final dance scene.

lol i had a vhs copy of pi

Those moments are supposed to be cheesy and overwrought, though ... the style of the movie and the subplot of Swan Lake link together a mutual style of over-the-top emotionality.

x-post But I bet you didn't have to pay a hundred bucks for it. hmpf.

no--i def did not pay 100 bucks.

aronofsky owes me for requiem is what he owes me for

well yeah, that too

Those moments are supposed to be cheesy and overwrought, though ...

still not buying this

TBF I loved Requiem for a Dream

Nothing struck me as cheesy in this. Overwrought and over-the-top yes, but not cheesy. That implies amateurish to me and I didn't think there was a single false note in the movie. There was melodrama but it wasn't out of place or forced given the story that was being told (a ballerina who apparently had a history of mental issues given her mother's hyper-protectiveness and reaction to her scratching, plus her bulimia and the compulsive stealing, gets her big break and goes totally self-harming crazy attempting to live up to the expectations).

Well, yeah, cuz this movie was conceived at a bullshit level in which Victorian conceptions of womanhood still apply. That it enforced them with real assurance suggests how well Arnofsky plied his cliches, which is why I endorsed it a week ago. But it's still a crap movie.

did you change your mind or did you think it was crap a week ago too

Well, I thought it was entertaining trash.

well it cant be all that bad if you had a good time! http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content/plugins/smilies-themer/SAEmoticons/emot-colbert.png

You can hate yourself in the morning, as Dolly Parton said.

i'd have a hard time refuting what alfred says about the movie; it's melodramatic and over the top and full of cliches. the long club scene in the middle was a mistake and throws the movie out of balance.

but i still loved it and can't imagine it won't top my best-of-2010 list when i finally get around to making one. lots of great old hollywood stuff that everyone loves was borderline ridiculous (lots of hitchcock, for one) but it stayed on the right side of the border. so did this one.

You know what keeps me from accepting this as an attempt at an Old Hollywood soaper? Natalie Portman's boringness. Like I said upthread, I really can't stand drippy female performances.

"Well, I thought it was entertaining trash."

that's my favorite kind of trash!

but this movie was way more restrained than what i was expecting (natalie portswan flying into the audience and tearing out eyes and her red eyes shooting omega beams and such).

you expected Portman to shoot omega beams and such?

xpost

lol out-of-nowhere Kirby reference

when people's eyes turn red i expect lasers to eventually blast out of them c.f. chekov's gun.

You know what keeps me from accepting this as an attempt at an Old Hollywood soaper? Natalie Portman's boringness. Like I said upthread, I really can't stand drippy female performances.

― Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:52 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

i'm sympathetic to this POV, but it was the first thing I've liked her in since The Professional

yeah i actually thought portman was fantastic, and i'm normally pretty ho-hum about her. winona was great, too -- probably the first time she's been really great since, what, 1990?

Is there a way to make a movie about late-adolence body-image/self-harming issues and not have middle-aged dudes think of it as melodramatic?

er, late-adolescent

i'm not even close to middle age, but no, prob not.

xpost:
are you arguing that this film is not melodramatic?

winona was great, too -- probably the first time she's been really great since, what, 1990?

ha I thought this too

I am so-so on Aronofsky, but after the tedium of The Wrestler, I would've been happy just to see him return to form even if Black Swan didn't hit so many of my sweet spots.

But since it did, I'm happy to call it one of my favorites this year in the bargain.

I have a VHS copy of Pi that Tower Video ended up charging me $100 for that I'm still bitter about and feel like aronofsky owes me some good movies in order to make up for it.

― ENBB, Sunday, December 26, 2010 7:51 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

pay attention people this ^^ is ott camp trash melodrama

gah i want to see this but mostly because ive had a crush on mila since T70sS season 1.

K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S / K U N I S /

― Becky Facelift, Wednesday, August 18, 2010 9:25 AM (4 months ago) Bookmark

yes this ^^

and

Well, I thought it was entertaining trash.

― Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, December 26, 2010 8:21 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

this is encouraging (no sarcasm)

eh

that was what I thought, "eh"

after I finished watching the major motion picture black swan by darren aronofsky

this had me going but i don't think i liked it

bit cruel eh, just seemed kind of stupid

best comedies of 2010

will youtube the bits with mila kunis and natalie portman kissing.

― Efraqueen Juárez (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, September 1, 2010 11:36 PM (3 months ago)

the prophecy is realised.

I'm not an Aronofsky fan but I really liked this. Very, very silly but an effective, visceral experience in the theater. Looked and sounded great!

I liked how whenever her mom called, ehr phone had this giant pink screen that said

MOM

reminded me a lot of the piano teacher in places

yes!

i just watched vampire's kiss and now would like to have seen portman run amok in the streets shouting I'M A SWAN I'MASWANIMASWAN
i know a lot of haters don't think portman has it in her to go to cagian heights/depths but i have faith.

Some have called Black Swan "straight camp," and the near-oxymoronic concept refers less to sexual orientation than to an aesthetic contradiction: an auteur whose self-serious sensibility lends itself to unwitting camp applying himself to a piece of conscious camp.

http://www.slate.com/id/2279459/pagenum/all

Susan Sontag rip

Dug the stimuli no end... wasn't as ground-breaking as RWD though, and seemed bizarre early in the movie when the camera would follow up right behind her incessantly as she walked to places. It's like Aronoflkjyy just graduated from film-school and felt the desire not to be just a regular scan & dolly schmoe.

It was definitely appropriate later in the movie tho - well done too - , I just felt the film could've benefited from a little more normalcy in the initial 40minute bit.

Despite some diva catfights and lesbian sex, there's not a queer bone in its body.

There is probably really no such thing as "straight camp," and it there is, it's probably something more along the lines of Serendipity or something.

kubrick is straight up straight camp and black swan is very much in that tradition. the shining x eyes wide shut

when you multiply something by eyes wide shut you get eyes wide shut

lol

haha

Dug the stimuli no end... wasn't as ground-breaking as RWD though, and seemed bizarre early in the movie when the camera would follow up right behind her incessantly as she walked to places. It's like Aronoflkjyy just graduated from film-school and felt the desire not to be just a regular scan & dolly schmoe.

It was definitely appropriate later in the movie tho - well done too - , I just felt the film could've benefited from a little more normalcy in the initial 40minute bit.

I have a theory that the point behind that was that, since Portman's character was never all there to begin with, the intermittent shaky cam moments at the beginning were to establish how precarious her mental state was early on so that when she went full on bananas there were signposts for it for you to remember erratic moments earlier in the film (like the bulimia scene and her stealing shit from Winona Ryder).

ok i watched the 1st 20mins and i think im just gonna go see it in the theater, yall won, the world finally won against me, congrats world

1 world
0 ice cr?m

my mom liked this

Lol ur mom likes lesballerinas

I'm just playing this is a qual film

hey contenderizer can i get yr moms #

why because she looks intersting

^ joke i bailed on, glad someone came through

kubrick is straight up straight camp and black swan is very much in that tradition

eff u

http://www.slate.com/id/2279459/

yeah icey linked that yesterday- kind of good, mostly annoying

oops I must have fucked up my cntl f

his was a diff url to the same thing iirc. i liked that movieline review the slate piece linked to a lot better.

basically i agree w/ this review except i enjoyed it: http://www.movieline.com/2010/12/review-black-swan-takes-its-own-hifalutin-hokum-way-too-seriously.php

black swan more like black YAWN amirite

black swan more like black yawn amirite

― gr8080, Friday, December 24, 2010 6:35 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

;_;

dayo = black swan, gr8080 = white swan

no joke i actually ctrl+f'd "yawn" and "amirite" before posting that

already falling behind on my 2011 year of good posts resolution

black swan more like black yawn amirite

laughed aloud

Lol ur mom likes lesballerinas

my mom refuses to see or spend $$ on any movie w/ a gay/lesbian sex scene, including this one ;_;

can't help but feel there's a zing struggling to get out of there

xpost

Who told her?

Enjoyed this, but was frustrated by how Aronofsky would get great moments from the actors and then be all NO LOOK AT MY CGI INSTEAD. What kind of nut sees the portman/kunis sex scene and says "now what this needs is moving tattoos."

questions that shd not be asked in the internet age

blunt and unnuanced opinion is this movie is very cool and i don't rly relate to much in these reviews, there's no good reason not to enjoy besides maybe ur queazy and it makes you uncomfortable. stuff like the movieline review just feels like cool kid movie critic poise & i disagree w almost everything. thought all more familiar or cliche material was dealt with really nicely & perfectly, natalie portman killed it, kind of seems like the review's criticizing it for having more interpersonal depth but really it's almost exclusively interior

Aronofsky and cinematographer Matthew Libatique give us something to look at, or at least giggle over, every minute, whether it’s Portman’s Nina-the-ballerina sprouting tiny, spiky feathers from her shoulder blades or Winona Ryder, as a spurned elder-ballerina, going all crazy-eights.

some friends of the friends i went with were giggling throughout the movie & it was kind of disgusting savagery

lesballerinas engaging in Kunilingus

i giggled throughout this movie.

some friends of the friends i went with were giggling throughout the movie & it was kind of disgusting savagery

maybe your friends have seen psychological horror movies before. or center stage.

my revulsion was def majorly situational, saw it at a kinda art housey cinema & you could just feel all the eyes rolling

most lol moment was after kunis cassel sex hallucination when the guy in the birdman suit just walks by & says "hey"

i saw it on a chinese streaming service with english subtitles that translated 'fuck you' as 'woe to you' and that was so perfect
i wished she had actually said, 'woe to you'

A.O.S. O.T.M.

xpost

Who told her?

probably heard about it on E! News Live or something-- who knows

she refuses to see Mulholland Dr. for the same reason ;_;

trashy greatness flowchart:

http://www.slate.com/id/2279738/entry/2279739/

Can't wait to read how Stephanie defends Somewhere.

why is ao scott all like DON'T U SEE IT IS NOT ABOUT BALLET

flowchart otm

I pretty much agree with that review (aside from the laughing my ass off at the movie part; there were things I laughed at because there were funny scenes/lines but I didn't find the movie to be a nonstop laugh riot and the creepy scenes ppl say they laughed at were actually creepy to me), yet I still strongly object to his definition/reclamation of "trash"

I guess I am just protective of my pejoratives, lol

It doesn't seem like a very discriminating definition: "The best trash gleefully appropriates any and all tropes—camp tropes, horror tropes, Expressionism, first-person shooters, long Chris Rock routines—and combines it with top-drawer talent and inspiration as a way of bashing high and low together to generate sparks."

does pixar's Up count? it's only missing long Chris Rock routines.

in fairness that is a direct reference to the Kanye album he's using as a reference point

kanye seems more like knowing, winking camp though?

The best trash gleefully appropriates any and all tropes—camp tropes, horror tropes, Expressionism, first-person shooters, long Chris Rock routines—and combines it with top-drawer talent and inspiration as a way of bashing high and low together to generate sparks.

not really sure what makes the film "trash" by this guy's definition.

like, if a film is full of tropes but doesn't have "top-drawer talent" and doesn't bash highbrow into its lowbrow, is it not great trash?

and why does "the best trash" have to grab bits and pieces of everything?

sounds like he's really craving an inspired "mess" more than "trash"

I would agree with that, actually.

black swan needed a long chris rock routine

Showgirls is way better

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c98/kmblog/201012/20101229c.jpg

"Black swans drive like this."

"if you were only dancing the part of the white swan" is a huge meme in our house

her big line about how she's the swan queen and her mom was in the corps was allllllllmost up to "I am the best goddamn dancer in the American Ballet Academy. Who the hell are you? Nobody." in Center Stage.

"In my neighborhood, there are four black swans. Hundreds of houses, four black swans."

black swans vs pink flamingos

vs the birdcage

so i went and saw and enjoyed it v much - agree w/most everyone that its a playful film designed to shock and delight - vibing off the melodrama of ballet, shooting you into stagy horror and exploitation scenarios etc

theres one set of obvious tropes that havent been commented on as much as the rest or maybe have been taken more seriously rather than recognized as the ott elements of pastiche they are- that would be all the artistic journey flimflam - control and madness, fear and confidence, dedication and hurt toes blahdy blah - that stuff is equally as silly as any of the rest of it and is deployed strictly for effect

in a lot of ways resembled another crazy quilted movie from this year that people couldnt figure out how seriously to take, inception - also lol at throwing her stuffed animals down the trash shoot

black swan performance scene was amazing, w/all those lil pre feather goosebumps youre not sure youre seeing at first rippling up and down her shoulders and arms

I figured out exactly how seriously to take Inception

and us your posts

i keed

lol luv u guys *hugs* * hallucinates bleeding cuticles*

The guy on the subway/ass to ass guy is actually playing the same character in this apparently - "Uncle Hank"

he's the r2-d/c3p0 of the aronofskoverse

You guys seen this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Blue

not sure if I mentioned it upthread, but if I had it was pre-movie watching. So contrary to my initial thoughts, BS and PB aren't the exact same film - but Darronfoskyakjsd DID buy the rights to this film to avoid any possible legal repercussions (which wouldn't have arisen, considering the director and head-honcho of the anime just died recently). Still - the bath scene was v. similar, the Subway scene is identical, and the narrative is extremely similar in terms of mood. Additionally, both women in both films seem to have become ruined by sexuality somehow. Awesome film to check out if you can find it around.

also lol at throwing her stuffed animals down the trash shoot

yes! under-commented scene, got the biggest laff from me iirc. though i might have just said 'o gimme a f'in break' aloud.

i dont want to sound like this guy so ive held out until now but: this movie had a lot of v excellent new york details, good sense of place 4 sure

yes totally. the scene where she is walking under the scaffolding.

the apartment like obvs its rent stabilized and theyve had it for a while otherwise they couldnt afford it, the layers of paint on the door the tons of art on the walls, you know who they are culturally

haha that terrible bar/restaurant they go to is very uws too

yess

those guys were very sweaty. i remember thinking, 'darren, those guys, they're gross and sweaty, i think i get it'

when winona threw that huge expensive black leather bag over her shoulder and stormed out i realized something abt my experience

meant to go see this tonight, was gonna get the event together and everything, but then i just went out and had a piece of pizza and rented micmacs instead. so i am going to watch micmacs and pretend it contains an imaginary mila kunis lesbian interlude and a guy in a bird costume saying "hey."

micmacs was probably more fun than black swan

micmacs was awful

perfect blue awesomeness seconded

micmacs was awful

orange and tealest movie ever made

okay, so i did make it out to see the black swan tonight, in the rain. don't know that i've enjoyed any other theatrical film even half as much this year. i can see why showgirls comparisons might be made, but this was nowhere near as cartoonishly, inflatably ridiculous as that. it's ridiculous, of course, but in a very different way, evoking depalma at his best, everything stylized and heightened and pushed through lurid quasi-camp into a kind of ecstasy of perfectionist craft. the kubrick of eyes wide shut is another clear reference point, along with polanski's repulsion, and yeah, it's hard to ignore the huge debt to satoshi kon's perfect blue, which this seems almost to adapt.

anyway, the most depalma-like aspect, to me, was the heavy - near constant - reliance on reflection, perspective and viewing-through. nina was almost always seen to be surrounded by mirrors, often black mirrors, reflecting back not only her distorted perception of herself, but her petrified awareness of external observation and judgment. as it's a point-of-view piece framed through the eyes of this unstable protagonist, we're constantly reminded of the difference between semblance and reality, a wonderful theme for a film about the ballet. meanwhile, the occasional shakeycam and relentless focus on the act of looking forces us into awareness both of the camera that observes nina, an echo of her own paranoia, and her own observation of the world around her. loved the integration of all these layers and devices, in ways both subtle and almost deliriously obvious (framing nina through a break between two panes of a mirror when thomas, the director, announces that the lead must be able to portray both the white and the black swan, so that she momentarily appears as a double of herself). i think i love movies that concern themselves and play with the mechanisms and implications of perception more than almost anything else in cinema.

also enjoyed it as a sort of feminist critique of the expectations and demands placed upon women, especially beautiful women. the film, through nina's eyes, sees men as leering creeps, women as fickle rivals. to exist alone in a world where one is constantly the subject of masculine desire and interest, predatory interest. to have, at the same time, so fragile an ego that your self-worth becomes entirely dependent on satisfying - while at the same resisting - the demands that this male interest places on you. i'm not suggesting that this is the universal female condition, but it's hard not to read the film as a commentary on the terrible sacrifices some women are driven to make in order to maintain the illusion of perfection.

loved so many other little details. the pink cellphone screen when nina's mother called, mom's paintings, the reveal of the stuffed animals, "hey", portman's performance (when aronofsky didn't feel compelled to gunk it up with unnecessary digital trickery), etc. i suppose i felt that the film could have used a lighter touch here and there, but that's probably out the director's reach, and winona ryder's performance and character seemed wasted in a film that hardly cared about them. minor quibbles lodged against a movie i enjoyed immensely and will certainly return to more than once. it gave me exactly what i want most out of the cinema: a rich, compelling, lurid and overheated vision.

So with this and Inception is ripping off/homaging anime officially a "trend" now.

Can't wait to see this.

i'm not suggesting that this is the universal female condition, but it's hard not to read the film as a commentary on the terrible sacrifices some women are driven to make in order to maintain the illusion of perfection.

some are even driven to perform in leering lesbo dream sequences!

I mean, I get everything yer saying but the symbolism was so obvious and writ-large that it drained all the mystery out. repulsion is as one-note and schematic as black swan, but has a boatload of irreconcilables and mystery, whereas black swan seems like the type of "deep" symbolism designed to excite lit major frosh or movie critics. there are two swans, one's black, one's white. get it??? there are mirrors everywhere! get it??? yeah yeah, I get it.

the film did help me put my finger on what I don't like about aronofsky's films. they strive for this wild hallucinatory steez but he's got the soul of a schoolboy so they never hit hard enough. you can't deny his technical ability but it's all flash. I actually liked the wrestler a lot, he does well with a grounded, kitchen sink drama. I wish the guy wanted to be more cassavetes and less jodorowsky.

i hear ya, i just think this particular movie thrives on really obvious symbolism

once i heard the basic plot and thematic outline of this film I basically decided it was about Aronofsky himself...particularly a response to the reception of The Fountain.

also: nothing intrinsically wrong with your symbolism being obvious. it's not an easter egg hunt. it's more: is it resonant symbolism?

I guess the answer for me here would be "no"

finally saw this last night and was immensely entertained. i can see how people are calling it camp because how over the top it goes and i agree it's totally hilarious if you watch it with that expectation. but really, i felt the use of fantasy and heavy symbolism was really quite earnest, meant both to evoke the folk-tale origins of swan lake and to explore a preponderance of self-serious themes. i was kinda disappointed to see how the madness / genius fallacy was showcased so prominently, and how nina's madness was so blatantly 'hysterical.' but despite that, i really thought the movie was totally inventive and engaging in playing out those themes.

i was strongly reminded of _the piano teacher_ (the book; didn't see the film): the overly intimate relationship with the controlling mother; the rigid technicality of the repressed female artist; the self-mutilation; the tension of control vs. expression with regard to art and sex.

edward i feel like thats legit criticism of aronofsky up til now, but this one was playful and had a sense of humor abt itself enlivening what mightve otherwise been a p ponderous set up

maybe aronofsky realized he was ridiculous and insufferable after the failure of tree of life leading him to go back to basics w/the wrestler and then try again but w/feeling this time for black swan

contenderizers depalma comparison has some resonance, tho rating it w/his best is just out of bounds

black swan has a lot of parallels with the wrestler

both about comically archaic subcultures where suicidal fuckups destroy their bodies

finally saw this last night and was immensely entertained. i can see how people are calling it camp because how over the top it goes and i agree it's totally hilarious if you watch it with that expectation. but really, i felt the use of fantasy and heavy symbolism was really quite earnest, meant both to evoke the folk-tale origins of swan lake and to explore a preponderance of self-serious themes. i was kinda disappointed to see how the madness / genius fallacy was showcased so prominently, and how nina's madness was so blatantly 'hysterical.' but despite that, i really thought the movie was totally inventive and engaging in playing out those themes.

I sort of feel like there was no direction for Nina's madness to go except for "hysterical", given the crazy repressed point from which she started and what she was being screamed at to do.

The madness/genius fallacy would probably bother me more if I didn't know so many batshit insane ppl who are tops or near the top of their field (lol Ivy League). Also, and I think this gets undersold a lot in the discussion of the movie, it was already determined from the beginning that Nina was an excellent dancer AND also crazy; the movie struck me more about the evolution of her psychosis allowing her to express her talent in a different manner rather than her "going crazy" to become a better dancer. The first half of the movie spends a lot of time harping on how her White Swan is immaculate; you don't get that from being kind of okay.

What's the right word to describe De Palma's style if not "camp"? Because I agree that straight camp is a misnomer. Operatic?

Whatever it is, I can imagine De Palma's making a nearly identical version of this in 1981, with Debra Winger, Farrah Fawcett-Majors, and John Lithgow -- or, better yet, Tony Randall.

yea ultimately i think this movie is better and more entertaining as delirious campy romp thru the darkness rather than the serious overwrought psychodrama that i suspect it wants to be.

theres no way this movie is taking itself totally seriously, all the horror movie shit, bird man saying 'sup', the cliched stage mom etc etc, plz people

the serious overwrought psychodrama that i suspect it wants to be.

have we not already debunked this?

did aronofsky say something either way?

It's easy to come up with a list of directors who want it (and, get their best get it) both ways, Hitchcock being a prime example. The ones who know that laughter, surprise, and shock affect the same neurons in the brain.

(Ugh, I can't type today. Who want it and (at their best, get it) both ways.)

yeah otm

i dont think you can 'debunk' someone feeling differently about a movie than you

again, the script seems to predate DA's involvement. I think he decided to approach it 'playfully' because played 'straighter' ppl would laugh even more.

this movie is really up my alley, I was looking forward to seeing it. kinda bummed it couldn't deliver the goods.

re: taking itself seriously, aronofsky seems to be going for some kubrickian schadenfreude of the absurd, but while the dude's accomplished he's no kubrick, so it ends up being NAGL when you're just laughing at a tortured ballerina for 2 hours. if you do take it seriously then the movie is pretty turgid. and a balance wasn't struck between either of these poles, part of the movie's failings for me.

well yah but the continual suspicion that this was angling to be a "deep" or "serious" movie is mostly based on who directed it, not on anything that happens on the screen.

YA BEEN DEBUNKED

i've been encountering plenty of people who read very little camp value into it... i mean a lot of people thought the Exorcist was a howler too, y'know?

YA DEBUNK YA

http://grab.by/8fz2
howl

awoooo

well yah but the continual suspicion that this was angling to be a "deep" or "serious" movie is mostly based on who directed it, not on anything that happens on the screen.

don't really agree w/ this, I mean you've got a bunch of psycho ballerinas being led by this superintense sevengali down a dark path w/ freudian symbolism laid on with a trowel, it's not like dude made hot tub time machine

this is not the poster for a wacky camp thrill ride

http://img.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/new-black-swan-posters-released__oPt.jpg

Maybe ridiculous is the right word, in the Charles Ludlam sense. Hitchcock, De Palma, and this movie, all making ridiculous psychosexual thrillers that aim to work on two levels at once. Not unlike dreams, eh?

I think some of you guys have a very different definition of "camp" from me, or are maybe using it as a synonym for "melodrama"...?

I don't know why being serious has to preclude containing any humor, either.

and you've got a main character literally transforming into a bird and winona ryder stabbing herself in the face!

i mean--i'm not really up for arguing about this much more, but as someone who's been v. hard on aronofsky in the past the shift in tone here was easy to see. the wrestler, with all its estranged daughters and strippers with hearts of gold, was the film that was actually aspiring to "seriousness."

i dont think the suffering and heavy symbolism was exactly played for lolz - it just had some aspect of humor and awareness operating

yeah i dunno like i said it reads either way, i just think that this was a really entertaining but ultimately earnest attempt to explore serious themes about body image, sex, madness, talent, etc etc. like ok:

***SPOIL***SPOIL***SPOIL***

the final sequence where she has stabbed herself in the womb with a goddamn mirror and dies bleeding from a vaginal wound blooming through her white dress: i don't think this was played for chuckles!

just because the symbolism is heavy and obvious doesn't mean it's not without serious intent (just ask toni morrison)

oh man now we are arguing via movie poster

not really sure "camp" means anything anymore. or at the very least determining if something is to be taken "seriously" or not really means anything? are we really that anxious about being hoodwinked or tricked by art into thinking it means something?

or did she stab herself ???

or did she stab herself ???

haha see that's where I was at by the end of the movie

i guess this comes down to what you think the film's priorities are--i see any exploration of the themes elmo mentions as being v. subordinate to shocking, frightening, and delighting the audience--which is why this is a horror movie.

although I enjoyed Inception a hell of a lot, this Black Swan was way more effective at being disorienting re: what's real and what isn't

From Charles Ludlam's manifesto for Theater of the Ridiculous:

Bathos is that which is intended to be sorrowful but because of the extremity of its expression becomes comic. Pathos is that which is meant to be comic but because of the extremity of its expression becomes sorrowful. Some things which seem to be opposites are actually different degrees of the same thing.

This is farce, not Sunday school. Illustrate hedonistic calculus. Test out a dangerous idea, a theme that threatens to destroy one's whole value system. Treat the material in a madly farcical manner without losing the seriousness of the theme. Show how paradoxes arrest the mind. Scare yourself a bit along the way

i covered this back in december yall

its ok to be invested in a campy/hilarious movie!! its possible to have a movie that hits both serious and funny emotional cues!!

― max, Sunday, December 26, 2010 7:35 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

"camp" now used as shorthand by moviegoers who want to condescend and laugh at anything, like the fucks at NYC's Film Forum. (Ivan the Terrible, Rififi, Metropolis etc)

But w/out laughs this film wd be truly empty.

max otm in december.

that's probably my other problem, I'm a jaded horror movie fan, so this really didn't cut the mustard as far as bringing the scares

it ended up being a thrill ride without thrills

max otm re the date he posted being in december

tho i feel like in this debate, which happens a LOT, speaks more to containing and controlling our reactions to art...it's a self-protective gesture.

xposts

It's funny, because the whole spirit of ILX conversation is the combination of aiming for salient points in a playful manner, with the breeziness making a point more visceral instead of less profound. Max hit it on the nose there.

in december

max is right, once a year, in december

just noticed it was dec 26! i feel cheated.

better luck this year

a late christmas present from max, in december

my xmas gift to you all

xp lol

idk i thought earnestness was a precondition of camp -- if you're going by the sontag handbook i mean

camp contains multitudes

mommie dearest and rocky horror are both camp in my book, that's a pretty wide gulf

I don't really think this movie was nonstop campy lols the whole way through. There were a bunch of things that I thought were funny but it takes way more emotional detachment than I had while watching this to describe the vast majority of this movie as "campy".

xp: "Mommie Dearest" is camp because of how it has dated

idk why black swan isn't camp

maybe if I post more movie posters we will get to the bottom of this

oh god let's not debate why mommie dearest is camp it's like staring into the abyss

i think Mommie Dearest was seen as camp from the get-go?

Roughly a month into release, Paramount realized the film was getting a reputation and box office as an unintentional comedy, and changed its advertising to reflect its new camp status, proclaiming, "Meet the biggest MOTHER of them all!"[4]

well actual definitions don't hold much sway in these discussions, elmo.

I blanch at bringing Hitchcock into this; the attitudes and emotions in his thrillers were usually adult ones, while in BS they are all adolescent except for the ones that imitate adults in old movies (eg, Mom's harbored bitterness over giving up career for daughter).

The idea that supreme art comes from feeling rather than craft is a hoary one, and treated w/ seeming, unfortunate seriousness in this film. Lots of passionate bad art out there.

id be totally fine w/retiring the word 'camp' from all black swan based discussions

"Mommie Dearest" is camp because of how it has dated

yeah, balls! it was ridiculed from day one. I guess we can add the early '80s to Millennials' "THEY WERE SO STUPID BACK THEN" timeframe.

morbs otm re: adults, during black swan I was getting the increasing feeling of being subjected to the daydreams of a horny emo teenager with an expensive camera

yeah morbs i really only think sontag is relevant because she treats camp not only as an aesthetic but also as a way of seeing

but u r OTM w/ this:

The idea that supreme art comes from feeling rather than craft is a hoary one, and treated w/ seeming, unfortunate seriousness in this film. Lots of passionate bad art out there.

Wild horses could not drag me to see this movie. Though I always love to Mila Kunis.

Black Swan + The Social Network = teenage dreams take you to the top and the bottom.

The idea that supreme art comes from feeling rather than craft is a hoary one, and treated w/ seeming, unfortunate seriousness in this film. Lots of passionate bad art out there.

actually disagree w/ this tho, black swan seems to say craft needs feeling to be fully effective and well that's true and pursuing those feelings and not finding them can make you feel like a failure as an artist (also true)

Morbs, the thing about "feeling" in this movie that isn't really spelled out all that well but something I took away (largely due to the environment I live in, surrounded by overeducated overachievers) is that her ability to "feel" the Black Swan would have been impossible without the work and precision she put into her White Swan. If she didn't have the goods, she wouldn't have been able to pull it off; also, this was why Lily was the understudy and not a straight double-casting (if the gulf between them was THAT large and Lily was THAT good at being the Black Swan, I feel like they would have just made her the Black Swan, or at least that's how it would have worked in my imagined "real world").

So, while I completely agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, I do think there was a bunch of background assumptive material in the movie that works against the simplistic idea of "true art is just about letting go".

xp: Morbs we are very close to being the same age IIRC; please ecuse me for not being obsessed with Mommie Dearest enough to know the minutiae of how it was perceived upon release.

xxp: grr this is why I make short posts

"camp" is just being used as a substituted for like "ott-ness" for a lot of people in this thread i think

craft needs feeling to be fully effective and well that's true

Prove it.

As a big fan of both Kubrick and Stephin Merritt, I hear them both being called "cold" all the time, but as none of us can be inside another's skin I have no idea if they feel/felt more of less than "sincere" artists (another ridiculous purported measure).

doc morbius otm

pulling out kubrick is like going for the exception to prove the rule, he's like beyond normative

either way the whole exploration of apollonian/dionysian dichotomies is as effective in black swan as it is in the works of jim morrison

i dont know if feeling or letting go is necessary for great art - but intense craft and study married w/relaxation and emotion is def observable in a lot of great art

kubrick was exceptionally passionate as a person for the things that fascinated him, that doesn't have much bearing on whether the end product of his films were cold

I'm with Morbs on this in theory; I think the thing that confuses Black Swan is that the director was expressly demanding that Nina "let go" to be what he want the Black Swan to be, and she couldn't figure out how to get that to happen without turning from a repressed stalkerish bulimic into a hedonistic bullying murderess. Behind all of it, the tight control and craft that made her such an effective White Swan was still there.

yeah, thought the movie made that abundantly clear

also kubrick = director, ballerina girl = performer so the mechanics are a little diff