Defend the Indefensible: films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" women have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles

Thread title cadged from my Maggie Gyllenhaal crush thread and inspired by this article on how Ramona Flowers got streamlined down to a "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" for the Scott Pilgrim film, otherwise a relatively faithful rendition of the comic and a very enjoyable picture.

Is there anything to this screenwriting trope beyond sexist bunkum, the product of lonely male screenwriters hoping they themselves will soon be visited by one of these fantasy people? I mean in real life, gorgeous, independent, "edgy" women are normally attracted to other gorgeous independent, "edgy" people... right? What use have they for internet dweebs such as I, or Will Ferrell in "Stranger Than Fiction," or whoever? Are there any movies where the dweeb gets the cool girl by actually changing on his own? (Scott Pilgrim, to be fair, strives for this but sort of fails because Cera acts so much the same throughout the character arc.)

Also, what does this formula look like with female protagonists, or is that just the "geeky girl gets makeover forced upon her" movie?

hot tub time machine was the latest. it may not be a classic example however

Sweet November.

Female protagonist = Heathers?

Something Wild was a good movie that I haven't seen since the 80s.

punch drunk love?

Such movies are sub-sub-fairy tales (real fairy tales embody a certain folk wisdom). They are mostly cackhanded variations on the fish-out-of-water theme with a side order of gender-swapped cinderella-goop.

The best that can be said for them is they entertain some people for 90 minutes, without leaving them better for the experience by so much as a nail paring of real thought.

OG mpdg info

http://www.avclub.com/articles/my-year-of-flops-case-file-1-elizabethtown-the-bat,15577/
http://www.avclub.com/articles/wild-things-16-films-featuring-manic-pixie-dream-g,2407/

I'm not really seeing your point there. Thread title sounds great to me. Will Ferrell is way out of Maggie Gyllenhaal's league so that example doesn't make sense. Cera was definitely miscast in Pilgrim, but she wasn't really all that so it kind of worked. I mean, this is definitely a hollywood thing, but not specifically an indie "edgy" thing, and your examples are pretty bad IMO.

yeah I always called this the Something Wild plot, but it's older than that. When I used to write fiction we talked about this plot construction constantly in a workshop for some reason one year.

also, I like all those movies in the linked article, mostly. I don't think Once really qualifies.

I just read those articles and now the concept of the MPDG makes sense to me. I still don't quite get the Pilgrim complaint though because the comic was just like that too. Maybe it just became more obvious onscreen?

I instantly thought of "Something Wild" when I saw this thread title; perfectly sums up this idea.

The annoying having it both ways part is that I feel like such plots often think they're blowin' yr mind by revealing that behind their surface opposition btwn the edgy and alluring girl and the square doofus guy is the essentially conservative idea that "edgy people really just wanna settle down and be square, deep inside, donchaknow" . . . so narratives like this bait you with rebel come-on but often have a picket-fence-or-bust comedown in store

^^^ agreed.

I think my real problem with this narrative is that it encourages the self-pitying loser male audience to continue being self-pitying losers, since clearly women find this very desirable and it's only a matter of time before one will come along to shake you out of your doldrums and rock your world, even as you, through your patient boringness, provide the stable, peaceful, decent antidote to all the rough times she's been through trying to play it tough in the wild and wooly world. I think my life might have gone somewhat differently if I hadn't been bombarded with this crap from, probably middle school onward I think.

re: Pilgrim and Flowers, comic vs movie - - I dunno. I agree with the author of the piece I linked in the OP that the comic, being six GNs long, give a lot more room for ALL the cast to have more plausible lives of their own. I mean, obviously, the story is about Scott Pilgrim coming of age, and his romantic worries along the way, so certainly he gets a lot more page time and we do understand many of the other characters only in relation to him - - - but at least Ramona's history seemed like the real history of a person, and her relationship with Scott could actually be seen, on-panel, as a relationship of some kind. The film just doesn't have time to get any of that across, plus it seems to take place in a MUCH shorter time frame. Therefore, Scott's "love" for her doesn't seem based on anything other than her "cool girl of my dreams" qualities.

this trope is only slightly better than the one put forth in crap movies like "Run, Fat Boy, Run" -- where your loser, irresponsible 'protagonist', who usually bails on commitment and is an all-around fuckup, loses his girl to someone who has the audacity to be a decent guy and be successful, and spends the entire movie battling to get her back, usually succeeding despite his douchery.

that av club article is funny, but throws in a few ringers. 'the apartment' doesn't fit this mold at all, and while 'bringing up baby' probably is a proto-MPDG movie, it works better because the heroine in that is a certifiable lunatic, not a dream girl.

i am still looking for a blue haired girl to shake me out of my loserdom fuck u all

thatll take 2 long, u shd meet a nice brunette and dye her hair while shes sleeping

"Risky Business?"

there's like some Ben Stiller movie like this right

Oh yeah, we had a whole thread about how much we hated it.

Reality Bites

Defend the Indefensible: "Reality Bites"

Titanic is one of very few Manic Pixie Dream Boy films.

Actually Reality Bites is a variant in which the uptight square is there to break the independent whiny slackers out of their funk.

Are there any movies where the dweeb gets the cool girl by actually changing on his own?

youth in revolt, but that's a horrible example, because the dweeb changes into a total asshole and gets the girl anyway, for no discernible reason. plus sucked so...

mean in real life, gorgeous, independent, "edgy" women are normally attracted to other gorgeous independent, "edgy" people... right?

i dunno. i often see attractive goth/industrial styled girls with nebbishy or otherwise wtf dudes. but maybe those aren't your manic pixie dream girls.

fuckin h8 movies like this

Is there anything to this screenwriting trope beyond sexist bunkum, the product of lonely male screenwriters hoping they themselves will soon be visited by one of these fantasy people?

Is it inherently sexist just because it's a male romantic fantasy? Doesn't the "bad boy" have anything better to do than romance the goody two shoes church girl? Of course the tropes of romantic stories are corny, but they can also reflect genuine experiences of love which are by their very nature colored by emotion and therefore fantastic and subjective. Maybe the "gorgeous, independent, edgy" woman is nothing of the sort, but only seems that way to the man in love.

^ otm

Kate Winslet deconstructs the MPDG: "Too many guys think I'm a concept, or I complete them, or I'm gonna make them alive. But I'm just a fucked-up girl who's lookin' for my own peace of mind; don't assign me yours."

One of the many things I love about that movie.

That seems to be everything that Casino is saying, really.

well, that's sort of kate winslet deconstructs the fantasy love object, really. not specific to manic pixies or even girls.

But she is a manic pixie! Also, a real mess.

Eternal Sunhine is deffo the best deconstruction of these relationships.

I'll bore the board with this again, but see (500) Days of a Summer for a scathing takedown of the douchebag guy.

And maybe The Pleasure of Being Robbed, which takes the MPDG construct to its logical conclusion. (hint hint: she's narcissistic, socially unaware, and annoying as fuck)

I realized that I called Kate Winslet herself a manic pixie, when of course I meant her character. But that made me think of actresses that cultivate that image 24/8. Cameron Diaz comes to mind.

Things you'd like to see Cameron Diaz do

(funniest thing on that thread imo: "Play the living shit out of a banjo.")

(hint hint: she's narcissistic, socially unaware, and annoying as fuck)

― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Wednesday, September 8, 2010 5:58 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Sugges

really

i am glad to never have experienced this in my life

annoying people?

hating dream girls

Julie Andrews. Sound of Music is the worst! Mary Poppins is cool, though.
Also Angela Lansbury in Bedknobs & Broomsticks + Manchurian Candidate.

I like how two of those movies, it is literal manic pixies who work their magic on:
http://community.oclc.org/hecticpace/Mr%20Banks.jpg

I vote no on Julie Andrews. Not manic, not a pixie. The Sound of Music is unwatchable except for her. She's the sanest thing in it by far.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uuU7VAlYCjc/TArvyg9epyI/AAAAAAAAADU/3ZquRePZp5I/s1600/Victor-Victoria-Julie-Andrews_l.jpg

But she's a flibbertygibbet!

Actually: "The Sound of Music is unwatchable except for her."

And I see your point, but the dynamic is totally different. She breaks the will of the stern defiant man by being whimsy-loving-yet-defiant. No one is whiny in that movie. At least, they're not supposed to be.

and while 'bringing up baby' probably is a proto-MPDG movie, it works better because the heroine in that is a certifiable lunatic, not a dream girl.

also, dharma and greg, so terrible but perfect in its drilled-down sitcom execution of this concept

Jenna Elfman actually has "elf" in her name, what more do you need

Is it inherently sexist just because it's a male romantic fantasy?

I dunno if it's "inherently sexist" but as a pattern of fiction across any number of movies, comics, TV shows etc., it has this kind of worrisome mythmaking quality, and if I have to back up my suggestion that it's sexist then I would say: the myth told is that women, however busy they may initially seem to be with their rock band, small business, novel, whatever, they will totally drop all that and devote themselves 24/7 to getting a guy to try bowling for the first time or whatever.

But I do think this probably is less about sexism than about contributing to distorted (male) nerd perceptions of how social interaction and dating "work," which is really where I come on board being annoyed.

they will totally drop all that and devote themselves 24/7 to getting a guy to try bowling for the first time or whatever.

Ok, but you seem a little het up about this. I mean, how long does bowling take? Surely at some point women who seek relationships do make time for some bowling, right?

but that's unfair. all romantic myths are based on the desirable other dropping everything in favor of you, sweet & secretly perfect you. like why would prince charming put aside the pressing affairs of state to rescue some chambermaid from her life of toil?

xpost

so what makes this difference than your typical romance movie aimed at a female audience?

Also, it isnt real life, its a plot point to drive a story, without which the movies'd be pretty dull.

I dont know if I'd want to go see "the wedding singer who never actually got his shit together and plated mario kart for 2 hours while drew barrymore sat in an office chatting some other guy all together on AIM".

i dont really see what was manic abt ramona flowers? she was pretty much the opposite.

lugubrious pixie dream girl

like why would prince charming put aside the pressing affairs of state to rescue some chambermaid from her life of toil?

He wanted to bang her iirc

and she wasn't a chambermaid she had her own farm.

looking to score some more land, eh? Fuckin royalty.

Titanic is one of very few Manic Pixie Dream Boy films.

― Melissa W, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 03:43 (7 hours ago)

ha, I hadn't thought of this. But I think it's related to a particular subgenre in which the uptight career-driven woman is shown the wonders of life by some heart of gold lower class schmuck. It does seem like a format that's distinct to the lowest of the low, TV movie kind of setting though. The only particular ones that come to mind immediately, and I don't know if I'm remembering them correctly, are Curly Sue starring Jim Belushi and some Christmas film starring Steve Guttenberg as Santa's son. Quality films one and all. (Actually as a connoisseur of the bad Christmas movie I think there are several in this vein.)

Steve from sex in the City and miranda the icy lawyer he impregnated and then defeated into compromising her ideals.

Something Wild >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other movie mentioned in this thread.

Although obv Heathers and Eternal Sunshine have plenty to recommend them.

Has this genre ever overlapped with films in which independent, "edgy" rookie cop has nothing better to do than break uptight whiny square cop near retirement of his bubble?

'the rookie' is all time imo

Yes, Dragnet.

where does 'trading places' fit in to all of this btw

I'm not going to say it's rational, but for some reason the word "lugubrious" makes me think of Jabba the Hut. Every time.

they make films about these women because they totally exist

anyone who is a writer will tell you, 'write what you know', and that's exactly what happens

^^^sprung

Sideways plays with this.

also, someone is really proud of the phase 'manic pixie dream girl', but most of the women aren't that unusual. it's the boy who is usually the problem. i think i have more of a problem with the 'hot tub time machine'/'yes man'/'wedding crashers' thing of the adolescent-man-in-his-forties hooking up with a sorted-out girl in her twenties. 'greenberg' was superficially like this but the girl was a mess too and also it was good and those films kind of aren't. (there are some laughs in 'yes man' and 'wedding crashers' but they aren't 'good films'.)

Robin Wood, in his bk on Hawks, talks abt "the lure of irresponsibility" in relation to Bringing Up Baby, etc

i've always liked that phrase and have tried to live my life by it

the myth told is that women, however busy they may initially seem to be with their rock band, small business, novel, whatever, they will totally drop all that and devote themselves 24/7 to getting a guy to try bowling for the first time or whatever.

OTMOTMOTMOTMOTMOTOMOTMOTMOTMOTMOMTOMTOTOTMOTMOTMOMOMTOMTOMTOTMOTMOT

contenderizer right below that is also OTM but the OTM-ness of the bowling post rang in my head like a big brass gong.

Also I have been cranking about this character type for almost the last 10 years only I didn't call her MPDG, we called it "her kookiness will save you."

can i just also for a sec rep for the boring guys that don't want their heads wrecked by kooky girls spoiling their weekend plans to stay home and do crosswords kthx

la strada

the cat from outer space is a classic feline example too

Julie Delpy in the Before Sunrise series.

no.

next!

http://www.crankycritic.com/archive99/posters/forcesofnature.jpg

yeah, julie delpy character's not kooky, just awesome.

ethan hawke's character also not an uptight whiney square

http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/problemchild.jpg

Films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" children have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles.

look who's talking obv

has anyone mentioned BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE yet? because that one.

bonus: dude is blind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrKwSacntb8

Oh PLEASE WE'RE JUST HAVING KICKS!

ethan hawke's character also not an uptight whiney square

Cross out "uptight".

movies in which blind al pacinos break uptight whiny squares out of there bubbles

there

he's not really a square...i guess you could call him whiney but he doesn't seem unjustifiedly so. i dislike ethan hawke in general but he is p likable in those movies.

xxp to Alfred

think soto means he is uptight but not the other two

I mean that he wasn't whiney winegarten

This is a great idea for a genre, and I know I've seen numerous films over the years that belong. I'd need a while to work up a list. One that jumps out is The Sterile Cuckoo, although with qualifications; Liza Minelli's edginess is (if I have this right--it's been a while) tied in with deeper emotional issues, and you wouldn't call her conventionally gorgeous.

Ok, but you seem a little het up about this. I mean, how long does bowling take? Surely at some point women who seek relationships do make time for some bowling, right?

― kenan, Wednesday, September 8, 2010 2:22 AM Bookmark

OK, but I'm not objecting to the idea that at some point in the relationship they go bowling - - - it's this sequence where she's like "You're cute. You wanna go bowling Tuesday?" the guy, you know, he's in his tie and is really flustered and unsure and is like "i've never, uh i've never been uh, b-b-bowling" and she finds this really attractive and charming rather than being like "Who the fuck has never been bowling?" And this is fine as one moment in the story, but it's repeated in larger scale across their entire relationship, the woman is initiating and forcing through everything.

ex Will Ferrell is an asshole tax auditor who has never had a chocolate chip cookie. Maggie Gyllenhaal, a hip bohemian baker businesswoman, finds this irresistible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rCmX-TAl1w

I mean, I want Maggie Gyllenhaal to force-feed me chocolate chip cookies as much as the next guy but it just reaches a point of ridiculousness.

Films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" cats in hats have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles.

films in which gorgeous kansas barns have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny witches out of their ruby slippers

http://www.fusedfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/midnight_run_1988_685x385.jpg

Films in which gorgeous, independent, "podgy" accountants have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles

http://socialfresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/planes-trains-automobiles.jpg

fight club

Films in which gorgeous, independent, 'edgy' cops have nothing to do than to break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles

http://www.awardsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Bad_Lieutenant_Nicolas_Cage.jpg

1 scene i remember liking in "the last kiss" the zach braff movie that is mostly terrible is kinda the opposite of this phenomenon where the younger, "edgy" chick shows up at his office to give him a mix cd and he sees how ridiculous she is cuz of the real life shit he has goin on

dont recall at all if he was a whiny square, can only assume probably

he was a whiny square.

zach braff, a whiney square? never

dude's been typecast, it's a real shame

yeah he could've been the next John Heard

The mid 80s sub-genre that included After Hours(1984) Something Wild(1986) and the lesser known Into The Night(1985) by John Landis was known as 'Urban Nightmare'. It seems to be a forgotten sub-genre as there's very little about it on the net but all 3 of those movies feature the gorgeous independent women and whiny squares of the thread title. I think Into The Night may even have been the *best* of these. Anyone remember it?

ya vaguely

no way it was better than after hours tho

Hm i remember loving it as a kid. It had David Bowie in it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lVkYr6alfE

i had not heard of that. have added to lovefilm list. david cronenberg is in it. and jonathan demme. and david bowie. and a whole bunch of people.

'after hours' and 'something wild' are dope and way over the dreadful nathan rabin's head.

If you liked those 2 you'll like this a lot i'd imagine. Being made by Landis the comedy is broader than in the other 2 movies, in fact even the 'nightmareish' stuff is all played a lot more for laughs but i'm always surprised no-one seems to have seen it. 'Something Wild' was on tons in the 90s on the BBC.

Another meme in these movies is surprise-nudity but then that might be beacuse it was the mid 1980s. There's a thread on IMDB about this film called 'Did anyone else just watch this to see Michelle Pfeiffer Nude?' typically enough.

"Has this genre ever overlapped with films in which independent, "edgy" rookie cop has nothing better to do than break uptight whiny square cop near retirement of his bubble?"

I just watched Point Break, and thought Lori Petty might be the manic pixie, but it turned out to really be Patrick Swayze.

^ good analysis

that crappy Along Came Polly movie was this to a T.

Can't remember if I've seen Into the Night right thru but was aware of its existence. It can't be as brilliant as After Hours which is so gleefully malicious to its protagonist as to not belong in this genre at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuFNMj6eU0A&feature=related

oh man Into the Night!! such a ridiculous movie, so many pointless cameos, convoluted plot, tons of running around LA at night. It is definitely of a piece with After Hours (altho probably not as good - I haven't seen it in at least 10 years)

Y tu mamá también

Barefoot in the Park was the classic 60s take on this. I remember it being kind of annoying but with some good Neil Simon lines.From the Wikipedia plot summary:

"Stuffed-shirt Paul is a hard-working young attorney just starting his practice, while spontaneous bride Corie is determined to create a romantic environment in one room with no heat, a hole in the skylight, and oddball neighbors. The title refers to Paul's becoming drunk, throwing caution to the wind and running barefoot in Washington Square Park in response to his wife's repeated complaints about his sober and cautious demeanor."

kerrazy

i wish i lived in greenwich village in the 60s

http://auteurs_production.s3.amazonaws.com/stills/47671/whats-up-doc-1972.jpg

Does Breakfast at Tiffanys fit in here?

breakfast at tiffanys is sort of a subcategory, like cabaret, where the male characters were originally gay before the movie adaptation made them straight

jeez what's up doc is the obvious example, how did that take so long

maybe barbra isn't gorgeous ; )

true

It's been ages since I saw it, but would The Lady Eve be a definitive example?

isn't the main guy (michael york) in Cabaret 'not straight' in the film too?

I could see where The Lady Eve could be considered a mpdg movie, but I think the plot is more focused on the character development of Eve/Jean than anything else so I don't know if it would really count.

Not exactly the premise in the thread title, but Travels With My Aunt.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1061059712548_2003/08/17/four_weddings,0.jpg

was the dude in run lola run a square? it seemed like she was doing a lot of running around for that dude when she could have used her time reset superpowers to go to a fancy buffet and pig out or euro disney.

isn't the main guy (michael york) in Cabaret 'not straight' in the film too?

― piscesx, Wednesday, September 8, 2010 7:14 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark

he's british so

the fly (cronenberg version)

Defend the Indefensible: films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" mutants have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V4w18ZWaPas/SUk6QQc4bdI/AAAAAAAADM0/H_lcVyFmCcY/s400/Sigourney+Weaver+Ghostbusters+3.jpg

haha

Defend the Indefensible: films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" gatekeepers have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny keymasters out of their bubbles

i literally could do this all day folks

http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-200906/6c770c1a134553f7c58a0fc87eb09982.jpg

http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-200906/6c770c1a134553f7c58a0fc87eb09982.jpg

you son of a

Out Of Bounds fits this too, but the uptight square is a brat-pack era Anthony Michael Hall.

Also:

http://img.listal.com/image/1184190/500full.jpg

Aw come on her fella in that isn't a whiny square! Unless you mean that.. old painter guy?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:1sIh8Vi7cYDfCM:http://www.rosenbergradio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/weird_science.jpg&t=1

http://en.wikivisual.com/images/3/3c/Mermaidtwo.jpg

Haha, I have totally been with adding Ghostbusters and Weird Science to this. Possibly even Lost in Translation. Also possibly The Breakfast Club (both ways round, really) and Pretty in Pink.

http://www.orange.co.uk/images/editorial/bourne-identity-011208-450.jpg

we're really straying now.

Has no-one mentioned Ghost World yet?

http://www.resizr.com/resized/67f9.jpg

I don't think nermal's ever successfully gotten garfield to go bowling.

ghost world doesn't exactly work this trope imo

http://www.moviemobsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/watchmen-nite-owl-293x300.jpg

http://static.reelmovienews.com/images/gallery/batman-and-catwoman.jpg

^ manic pixie dead girl

that is a femme fatale

otm

also if that's from batman returns, she's a mousy doormat turned femme fatale so those are two personas that don't fit the thread title

Thank god I'm not gorgeous otehrwise peoplke might project this shit on me.

haha

At first I the Ghostbusters pic above was from this also appropriate one:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fH35d54jWqg/SwwMuw1_PJI/AAAAAAAAAfc/Pofj3-9B0Cw/s400/rocky.jpg

That is so sad that Freddy mercury died! Unbearable looking at pictures of him.

films in which three gorgeous, independent, "edgy" ghosts have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles

http://triangleartsandentertainment.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Scrooge-Christmas-Past.jpg

fine, catwoman's a femme fatale - but she's also a gorgeous, independent, "edgy" (dead) woman trying to break uptight grouchy batman out of his joyless crimefighter bubble. fits. sort of.

Batman is way cool. Guess you have never been inside of Wayne HQ.

And this is fine as one moment in the story, but it's repeated in larger scale across their entire relationship,

screenwriting = the art of taking the most unusual/exciting/scary/interesting/funny moment of a person's life and stretching it out for 90 minutes.

the woman is initiating and forcing through everything.

I guess I don't see the problem with that. Let's assume that in most romantic stories these days there's someone who is out of the other person's league (or seems to be at first) and there's someone who is the initiator, because watching two equals who just sort of casually, organically fall together is boring and non-dramatic. (There's also, of course the two people who were destined to be together but are kept apart by external forces, but let's ignore that for now). Then there are four possible scenarios:

1. dream man pursues average woman
2. dream woman pursues average man
3. average man pursues dream woman
4. average woman pursues dream man

If the man pursuing the woman is supposed to be the "traditional" form of romance, then can't 2 & 4 be seen as the more feminist approaches? You might say that #4 is more feminist because she's aiming high. But that would be a fantasy for women. Only 2&3 would probably appeal to male romantic fantasies. So maybe a movie where the dorky guy actively pursues the gorgeous, independent woman would be a better role model for the average guy. It could provide a sort of moral instruction for nerds to better themselves. But it would also perpetuate the idea that men should always be the initiators and aggressors in a relationship. And it also perpetuates the idea that a man needs to change himself to appeal to some ideal of what women want. So I think it's easy to see why the story of a dream woman pursuing an average guy is a popular approach.

I guess undramatic is a word. also, I should learn how to do the actual quote thingy.

batman is way cool. but he is not a happy camper. and wayne enterprises, for whatever reasons, have failed to return my many letters of inquiry.

I'd agree with wk that, in the world of romantic comedies or dramas, the MPDG does not rank as particularly egregious. There's something equally problematic with the plethora of films they market for women specifically (whether they be female-centric 27 Dresses or the male-centric Ghosts of Girlfriends Past). I wonder how much the MPDG bugs people more because it often turns up in films that are attempting to be indie or arty or in some way credible (Garden State, et al).

http://www.cinecon.com/frontimages/2172-dropdeadfred.jpg
I wouldn't have thought so until I saw it, but this movie would be much better if rik mayall was the normal one and phoebe cates was jumping off the walls.

nermal is a boy

a lot of people don't realize that

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/markkermode/2010/10/forgotten_gem_into_the_night.html

amazing to discover not 2 months after this very thread, the new Kermode blog piece is all about the 3 movies i was blethering on about above, moreover the good man prefers Into The Night to After Hours and Something Wild too. must watch it again soon and see if it stands up. maybe Kermode lurks on ILX.

Age difference aside, The Graduate would seem to fit perfectly here. (Although Ben never really does emerge from his bubble.)

I guess Ruth Gordon doesn't qualify as gorgeous in "harold and maude"

http://upcomingdiscs.com/ecs_covers/how-to-steal-a-million-large.jpg

Films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" crooks have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny museums out of their baubles.

I liked the TV show Flying Blind with Teo Leoni as the mpdg probably way more than it deserved. Apparently it only lasted one season.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103415/

I think about 60% of Woody Allen's catalog could fit here.

you think wrong.

manic depressive jazz guy?

the difference in the romantic credibility factor between play it again sam and sideways is negligible at best

No mention of Pretty Woman yet, why is this?

i don't know, but if i find out heads will roll.

I think I met one of these in real life but she just turned out to be kind of annoying*

*not in the truth bomb sense

yeah they always turn out to be horrible irl ime

^^^ probably taking it a little far

Generally agree with wk and contenderizer.

See, I'm not sure these scenarios are that unrealistic or demeaning to the women. The guys do have issues but they're not hopeless failures or anything (and are generally attractive guys). The women are attractive but are not uber-successful or worldly or anything. It's a fantasy but these kinds of people and these kinds of situations happen all the time ime. (If anything, 'bad boy' fantasies are probably more questionable.) Scott Pilgrim is a musician who does cool gigs and stuff; Ramona Flowers is a delivery girl who seems to have some baggage of her own in any case. Tom and Summer work at the same place; Afaict, Tom is better-educated than he needs to be for the job and has been there longer. In both cases, the woman were new in the environment, didn't seem to have a major novel or small business on the go, and were probably glad for the company.

I mean, Scott's probably a way cooler date than some douchebag who'd hit on you at Sneaky Dee's.

manic pixie dream girl: the play

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/Silver-Linings-Playbook-Bradley-Cooper-Jennifer-Lawrence.jpg

How many examples are there of "Manic Pixie Dream Guy" in film? Maybe that should be a separate thread.

http://i-cdn.apartmenttherapy.com/ol-images/kitchen/uploads/clarence.jpg

the cat from outer space is a classic feline example too

― k¸ (darraghmac), Wednesday, September 8, 2010 1:42 PM (2 years ago)

thread should've ended here imo

Xpost lol

How many examples are there of "Manic Pixie Dream Guy" in film? Maybe that should be a separate thread.

― Cunga, Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:16 AM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Elias Koteas in Crash

loooooool

Mathieu Amalric in Kings and Queens
Ethan Hawke in the early nineties.

'Big'?

Yes, thanks.

great call on Big

Also "Elf", in the same way as "Big"...

And, hey, while we're at it: "It's a wonderful life"

Hawke was never a pixie. Grungy.

I think there's a broader device of "somewhat 2-d character whose sole role is to teach the main character a lesson/break the main character out of a rut," but too often this device is fulfilled either by a woman, a black person, an old man, a homeless guy, etc.

Waltz in django unchained

I suggested Big because a stuffy yuppy with a stuffy boyfriend meets a man/boy, makes her jump on a trampoline etc., leading her to change.

Trying to think of other Tom Hanks films. I don't think 'Joe Vs the Volcano' counts. Splash?

obi wan.

gandalf

Santa or Santa's son in at least three made-for-TV Christmas movies that I can't remember the name of.

Steve Guttenberg was in one of them.

I've seen a lot of v bad Christmas movies.

Drop Dead Fred

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/premium-rush-blu-ray-box-art.jpg

manic fixie dream guy

Trying to think of other Tom Hanks films. I don't think 'Joe Vs the Volcano' counts. Splash?

― the so-called socialista (dowd), Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:01 AM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark

larry crowne

philadelphia

saving private ryan

Forrest Gump

haha larry crowne is very manic pixie middle aged man yeah

Wait, how on earth can you argue that Splash is manic pixie dream guy? It's so bloody obviously mpd girl.

Bosom Buddies

Ace Ventura

That one where it starts off animated, then the princess gets 'banished' to real-world, meets guy with young daughter, prince follows her, etc. Lots of Central Park scenes..

my big fat greek wedding

john corbett is a mellow pixie dream boy in a lot of roles

that really bad peter sellers movie

being there!

Most of the work of Johnny Depp to thread.

.. "Enchanted", there you go.

Enchanted is so great tho

We're not knocking any of these films are we?

(sarcasm not intended.)

Wait, how on earth can you argue that Splash is manic pixie dream guy? It's so bloody obviously mpd girl.

Sorry, my mind wandered a bit. I was just wondering if TH had any other MPDX movies.

Ferris Buelller is your male pixie.

Oh, good choice. The odd thing is that the male pixies tend to be films from the male pixie pov, which isn't the case with female pixies. Of course, 'odd' depends on how you approach it, I guess.

FBDO is kind of a weird example. Even though Ferris is the "main character," it's actually Cameron that goes through the Screenwriting 101 character arc.

You could say that Christian Slater is the male pixie in Heathers.

Cameron is the object of Ferris' manic pixie, I guess. Which would work with the thesis that male pixies get films written from their perspective whereas female ones don't.

I'm not sure that Heathers would count - he is presented initially as a manic pixie dream boy, but the ultimate outcome is that she realises the falsehood of that MPD attraction.

how bout Jason Segel in I Love You Man

nah not really

That's part and parcel of the pixie archetype though, they liberate the hero, but always go too far into the realm of self-destruction. The hero "wins" by incorporating the "pixie within" etc, but usually ends up rejecting or being rejected by the actual pixie.

heath ledger in the batman

Interesting example is True Romance in which the hero, inspired by the pixie into a dangerous world of adventure is ultimately consumed by that world, leaving the pixie to take up the mantle of the hero alone.

The shift of POV over to the pixie symbolized by her wearing the hero's signature Elvis sunglasses. Do you see?

That's part and parcel of the pixie archetype though, they liberate the hero, but always go too far into the realm of self-destruction. The hero "wins" by incorporating the "pixie within" etc, but usually ends up rejecting or being rejected by the actual pixie.

― Ask The Answer Man (sexyDancer), Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:53 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think that's necessarily true. A lot of these are rom-coms with a traditional happy-ever-after ending.

saving private ryan

― turds (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, January 23, 2013 8:47 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

drop dead fred with phoebe cates in the MPDG role instead of rik mayall would probably be much improved.

is 'jules and jim' sort of the anti-MPDG film? two happy non-uptight non-square guys living in their blissful bubble meet a gorgeous independent 'edgy' woman and it all ends in misery and suicide.

xp: might be the fault of screenwriters butthurt over Alvy not getting Annie Hall in the end.

oh yeah in sleepers, woody is the MPDG, and it has aged better than annie hall.

Peter Pan is a hard one to parse because not only does the manic pixie Peter invert the trope and help the freewheeling Wendy leave childhood and accept the uptight world of 'growing up', but Peter also has the ultimate MPDG of his own in Tinkerbell.

what do you think about the interpretation that it's actually captain hook that is the MPDG?

Nah, it's clearly the crocodile.

xp isn't that the plot of Hook?

which reminds me of the manic alien dream guy Mork

Satan as MPDG in the Garden of Eden?

Manic Pixie Demon Guy

Five Easy Pieces is kinda anti-MPDG. Quirky Karen Black unsuccessful at liberating uptight hero, gets dumped on whole film, abandoned at gas station as hero enters existential oblivion.

^^Not only that, uptight hero falls for and loses a woman more uptight than he.

He fails at being the pixie as well.
And the harsh father totem at the center of it all. Philip may be onto something with this Hook idea.

So in Pretty in Pink we have the paralyzed father at the center of the tale with pixies Ringwald and Cryer generally failing at liberation from uptight reality.

xxp Jesus as MPDG in the New Testament

Hamlet

Vertigo may be the MPDG cautionary tale.

Paralysis a big part of it too.

I thought dangerous dream girl was a whole separate thing

Manic Pixie as DDG's innocent face?

eddie furlong in T2 was oddly effeminate for this supposed macho leader dude -- this doesn't make sense until we realize he is the MPDG designed to get Ahnuld to stop being so stodgy and get in touch with his feelings.

ha!

"Lame father" archetype again with Reese spending his final minutes of screen time in T1 limping around.

is it reese or the terminator in T1 that's trying to break linda hamilton out of her square existence?

So in Pretty in Pink we have the paralyzed father at the center of the tale with pixies Ringwald and Cryer generally failing at liberation from uptight reality.

― Ask The Answer Man (sexyDancer), Wednesday, January 23, 2013 4:07 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ringwald's Hughes characters in general have too much of a tormented interior life to be MPDGs imo

angst is antithetical to the whole concept

kim novak is about as un-manic as dream girls get

well but she does have a frazzled, dim expression.

xp: Yeah, in Hughesverse, it's more Manic Nightmare.

The overlook hotel

in Breakfast Club isn't there a reverse MPDG happening? They normalize the goth with a makeover and now she's happy in a square bubbleverse with the diminutive jock.

Hughes is essentially conservative

With Judd Neslon providing "Hook" archetype, father issues, limp and all.

hahahaha some dude's DN is making it really hard for me to read this thread, constant double-takes. How impish! How quirky! Maybe he's...just the ILXor I never realized I was looking for.

^^Your Manic Pixie Dream Poster...

How about Fight Club?

Well, that's certainly some form of MPD...

heath ledger in the batman

― 乒乓, Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

under-appreciated

Melanie Griffith in Something Wild. I like this one a lot.

Discussed above, I see.

'Perks of Being a Wallflower' has the wondertwin power of both MPD Girl and Guy, w/ bonus points for Emma Watson actually wearing a pixie cut

How do Edward Cullen & Christian Grey fit into this, if at all?

In pieces, hopefully.

can i just say that i think louis ck and parker posey pretty successfully turned this trope on it's ear and made it into something at once fairly unlikely yet believable? + awesome? [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER] i mean she's just giving the shlubby nice guy one last chance before.... i dunno, it all makes sense. for once. plus, not the ending to the arc i was expecting.

seeking a friend for the end of the world tho - i liked the movie fine, but steve caroll? really? WHY HIM?