Mirror Neurons - The Fifth Revolution in Science

Discuss pls. I cant afford the related books

most people are physically and rationally set up to care about other people. or at least learn from them.

also: mindreading

this is a really interesting topic of some debate tbh. our brains are just so full of stuff!

i always end up starting to read the science literature on topics like this and just end up getting into articles like this, since my artsy/cultural-studies bent has always proved too strong for my sciencey leanings...
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandran06/ramachandran06_index.html

Lets advance to a point of time where we know everything there is to know about the intricate circuitry and functioning of the human brain. With this knowledge, it would be possible for a neuroscientist to isolate your brain in a vat of nutrients and keep it alive and healthy indefinitely.

Utilizing thousands of electrodes and appropriate patterns of electrical stimulation, the scientist makes your brain think and feel that it's experiencing actual life events. The simulation is perfect and includes a sense of time and planning for the future. The brain doesn't know that its experiences, its entire life, are not real.

Further assume that the scientist can make your brain "think" and experience being a combination of Einstein, Mark Spitz, Bill Gates, Hugh Heffner, and Gandhi, while at the same time preserving your own deeply personal memories and identity (there's nothing in contemporary brain science that forbids such a scenario). The mad neuroscientist then gives you a choice. You can either be this incredible, deliriously happy being floating forever in the vat or be your real self, more or less like you are now (for the sake of argument we will further assume that you are basically a happy and contended person, not a starving pheasant). Which of the two would you pick?

this is kind of sadistic and fucked up tbh

space-saving tho

i had a sort of simliar conversation with a friend a few months ago (tho it was more drunk and rambling than above), but we were talking about the case of brain injury - if we could replace the injured part of the brain with your own neurons, flesh etc (saved in a bank of some sort) that would do EXACTLY what the 'old' parts did, would you still be you. and i'm like, well, yes, of course, given that they're guaranteed to act EXACTLY like the previous parts. he thought that was kind of crazy. to me it's all just information, interchangeable whether it's original or replacement parts. if we can make exact replications, there's no difference. the trouble is that the brain is so complex - its parts, the way they interact with each other, with rest of the body, with environment, etc etc - that a complete and total exact copy seems impossible. but a lot of things seemed impossible once.

embrace the natural-technological evolution, crut

i want to be able to buy some app that plugs into my head so i can speak 25 languages fluently or instantly know kung-fu.

kinda want to do my phd abt an aspect of this tbh

i had a sort of simliar conversation with a friend a few months ago (tho it was more drunk and rambling than above), but we were talking about the case of brain injury - if we could replace the injured part of the brain with your own neurons, flesh etc (saved in a bank of some sort) that would do EXACTLY what the 'old' parts did, would you still be you. and i'm like, well, yes, of course, given that they're guaranteed to act EXACTLY like the previous parts. he thought that was kind of crazy

then you blow his mind by remind him that our cells (though not our neurons) are regenerated several times throughout the course of a human life, and yet we remain the same person

i told him that! and he said that they still came from inside us - this was his concern

we remain the same person

not really

go on

identity, privileged concepts of such, is a sham

i mean, I guess if you wanna go that way then no, I'm not the "same person" as I was even 10 minutes ago - I've had all these different experiences since then, I'm 10 minutes closer to my death, the state of my body and brain is different, and so on.

ooh i said that too!

we're never the same person we were even a millimillisecond ago

yeah, i'm not trying to say much more than that.

and i'm willing to run with it. replace my memories with some other person's, whatever. there is no solidity ever

xposts

but revising "remain the same person" to say "we still recognize ourselves as the same set of blood and gutz and cellz and neurons and memories that existed since birth, on a continual spectrum of subtly shifting identity" is just...tedious

yes, also true. this is the thing about talking about replacing damaged tissue with exact copies and whether they really have to be all that exact and won't they change/adapt anyway.
it's also about whether we can separate the philosophical "who are we, really?" from the "what are we, really?"

and i'm willing to run with it. replace my memories with some other person's, whatever. there is no solidity ever

i dunno dude. replace your memories with those of a serial killer, or an ant, and there's no difference? Your own memories 20 minutes ago are no closer to your present self than those of a complete stranger, totally interchangeable?

i don't think they need to be separated fwiw - xp

it may not lend itself easily to romanticism, but i think it's true

fundamentally, there is no difference between "me" and anyone else who has been sentient

just filler

it's just awareness, to postulate privileged sense of identity beyond that is delusion on my part

sentience is tedious and encouraging it is wrong

it's like the only game in town possibly

anyway, i will give up my identity when you pry it from my cold, dead hands

or your cold, undead brain

it'll be gone before your hands are even cold

i always wondered, if all the cells that make up my brain now are eventually replaced over time by new cells...

will i still be me or will there be some copy of me and the me thinking now will be effectively dead?

you never were "you"

dude

let's all fuck in the streets and burn our shit and die

because we are made of matter and matter can never be destroyed only altered then we never fully die in the sense of completely disappearing (or being replaced by other parts that are somehow not 'us')

too messy

let's all smoke too much weed and sit around contemplating the sentience of plates and feel bad about all the plates we've broken in our lifetimes

xpost

the brain is mechanistic, but awareness is out of time. it can't be created nor destroyed. when we are "brain-dead", awareness will still be present.

when someone asks you who you are, do you point to your head or to your heart region? this doesn't meant that our heart organ is the seat of our identity, but speaks to our physical body's interface with the subtle body. this includes the brain. the reason why we get upset when the physical body ages or when our mind comes out with crazy thoughts is b/c our true identity is not based in either of those things.

wait . . . we don't exist now? ILX!!

I point to my stylish & sexy hair, which is dead

it's important to ask if we really exist in the way that we are accustomed to thinking we do. look into immediate experience. all genuine religion is based on that.

no fancy pants metaphysical answers, plz. jus wanna know if i'm gonna be dead when my body gets round to recycling all the brain cells that are present in my head right now.

the brain is mechanistic, but awareness is out of time. it can't be created nor destroyed. when we are "brain-dead", awareness will still be present.

hmmm... don't reckon.

you're not going to be dead

yeah, some future me will still be walking around.

but the me that's sitting here typing this will be replaced, right?

why does that even matter???

we should be glad we're always dying and always being created

this is what the trees have told me

arrrrgh,
even ignoring accounts of ppl who were pronounced "brain-dead" and related after-death experiences, neuroscience cannot locate consciousness "within the brain".

but more important than reading neuroscience journals, look into your own experience.

because i won't be enjoying an ice cream or my a walk in the park with my future wife or whatever. it'll be some brain imposter!

xposts

our thought/"awareness" is not imbued in the matter of which we are made; it is in chemical and electrical phenomena that will cease once we are dead.

guys have I ever told you what happens in star trek when you teleport

your original cells are destroyed and they are recreated on the other side

think about that :smokingsmiley:

ok, but there's no reason to assume that consciousness carries on after death. because neuroscience is unable to figure out exactly how it works does not mean we can jump to conclusions like that.

xposts to del

our thought/"awareness" is not imbued in the matter of which we are made; it is in chemical and electrical phenomena that will cease once we are dead.

i have been around forever, i have yet to die

I feel like this is a thread I can contribute to & provide valuable insight to because I'm really good at existing and being sentient and feeling things shit

i'm not much cop at that even, really.

but revising "remain the same person" to say "we still recognize ourselves as the same set of blood and gutz and cellz and neurons and memories that existed since birth, on a continual spectrum of subtly shifting identity" is just...tedious

eh as a good Spinozist I'm pretty down with the latter. Insofar as my processes are relatively stable and their rate of change is reasonably steady and continuous then I'm me, if they get all blown apart somehow them uh oh RIP me, even if the person I identified as is legally still alive.

how much control do we have over any of that?

no matter how much will we exercise, anything can still thwart us. identity has nothing to do with personal will, which is why religions talk of surrender to god and so forth.

look into the question of personal identity, the replacing of every cell responsible for memories and so forth, do it, take it as far as you can go and then report back.

what is left after everything, without exceptions?

these cells don't grow out of nothing though - they grow out of the thing that is us

i don't know

and the air we breathe, food we eat, etc etc but that is also us - we're a superpermeable container
xp

everything happens within awareness. there is nothing, nothing more solid beyond awareness of this moment. and that's pushing it

it's good to be grounded in the physical body and to respect our surroundings and so forth but

yes so it wouldn't matter if all our cells completely turned over every day as we would still be wandering around thinking about things and doing our not-dead thing. the physical body is simply another part of or level to awareness then.

No, I mean I'm down with the latter as well, I'm just saying

what is left after everything, without exceptions?

I believe the answer to this is "My personal lord and savior, Catbeast(tm)"

whoops, that top bit is from what merdyeux said earlier. I was going to respond to it but then decided to make a catbeast joke instead

hahaaa

i like making catbeast jokes because i feel like it's kind of "my thing", and I don't have too many "things"

ignoring anyone else's reaction to "my thing", i'd just like to keep my perception of it at that level for now

when faced with a fork in the road, catbeast is always the direction to take.

i take people like john lilly seriously when he was like, 'oh i've done x amount of ketamine in an isolation tank and basically patanjali was otm'

but who wants to examine their own immediate experience?

and with calling cards like me, agh

i take people like john lilly seriously when he was like, 'oh i've done x amount of ketamine in an isolation tank and basically patanjali was otm'

but who wants to examine their own immediate experience?

and with calling cards like me, agh

i like making catbeast jokes because i feel like it's kind of "my thing", and I don't have too many "things"

as a person with no sense of humor, i would like to point out that

that sort of thing is not funny

you jackass

this is catbeast(tm), btw:

http://i51.tinypic.com/25um814.jpg

CATBEAST.ORG ain't what it used to be, ain't what it used to be

i don't know dude, that's a man's body with a cat head, and it's really tall compared to everyone else! i figure that's gotta be kinda funny

sry to derail rrrobyn

no, i'm sorry for being a jackass, guys!

happily derailed haha
xp

but wait, can you explain: but who wants to examine their own immediate experience?

i think the answer to that might be "almost everyone in this planet, and by 'this planet' I mean what I perceive to be this planet, at this immediate moment, as far as the concept 'I' has any meaning beyond what I think it means, assuming that we are capable of understanding an abstract concept like 'I' in close to the same way, and how are we ever going to be able to prove that bec-"

dang that's tedious!

'neuroscience cannot locate consciousness "within the brain".'

i believe i have, well not exactly located it, but figured out how a brain can generate consciousness, though I'm not sure if our brains do it that way, but believe me it is underwhelming how simply it can be done.

is catbeast an eddie campbell creation?

and by "tedious" I mean the abstract concept that 'I' consider t
http://i54.tinypic.com/6ivbbb.jpg

catbeast is the star of a soon to be world-famous very short comic published by just1ne's press later this year, hopefully

if you've got catbeast problems I feel bad for you son

xpostsssssssss

truth is not in objects. but smack dab within "subjective" experience. we always look outside of ourselves, blah blah

genuine pointers towards truth, our true gurus, always insist on examining our own experience, the felt sense of "self", without reference to objects, others, concepts, the outside world of temporal, seductive stuffs

in general, people get distracted by external quests, sources of confirmation for the immediate object inside their awareness (ego focus). but what has no reference point, is without limit? what is unconditional, beyond habitual identity parameters?

i think the answer to that might be "almost everyone in this planet, and by 'this planet' I mean what I perceive to be this planet, at this immediate moment, as far as the concept 'I' has any meaning beyond what I think it means, assuming that we are capable of understanding an abstract concept like 'I' in close to the same way, and how are we ever going to be able to prove that bec-"

no, i mean actually LOOKING, not just THINKING about stuff

yeah, i ask abt examining the moment because that is pretty much what i do a lot of the time. of course there's "being in" the moment, body(incl brain) processes going on + certain kinds of awareness, and there's also at the same time, if you choose, examining the moment (which i don't think has to be entirely conscious, sort of like you will always breathe but sometimes you will notice and examine your breath)
xps
oh okay i just wasn't sure what you were getting at but am prob on the same page?

ah, truth... well, to me, separation of subjective and objective is outdated. i think we are always self and other at the same time.

xpost
well, neuroscience has it that we experience things past-tense, so our immediate experience is not so immediate

but what i was trying to get at is not so much heavy-handed being conscious of the present moment, as much as just really paying attention to and deconstructing the experience of the SELF, basis of identity, blah blah blah. i think it's a fact that all religions ultimately depend on that examination, and it's self-evident why. the self. looking deeply into that w/o prejudice or preconceptions

there is nothing but the self

as maddonna said 'it's everywhere that you go'

wha? i think i'm having less trouble following catbeast than these weird delineations of self.

or as the article i linked to way above says, we are nothing but a pack of neurons
xp

xpost
look into your most intimately felt sense of experience until it hurts

that is beyond limitation

I found this part fascinating:

Intriguingly, in 2000, Eric Altschuller, Jamie Pineda and I were able to show (using EEG recordings) that autistic children lack the mirror neuron system and we pointed out that this deficit may help explain the very symptoms that are unique to autism: lack of empathy, theory of other minds, language skills, and imitation. [3] Although initially contested, this discovery — of the neural basis of autism — has now been confirmed by several groups including our own (spearheaded, in part, by Lindsey Oberman in my lab).

we are the waves, and not the water imo

robyn
nah i think that our nervous systems are hardware which carries us through this life

we have subtle bodies that are more amenable to adjustments and which can affect our physical bodies

we are not "just" a pack of neurons or whatever, though. trust me on that. or not

what's so bad about a pack of neurons that we can't be them? they're pretty amazing little dudes.

i am kind of worried about my vat-self right now. i hope it is warm in there.

i am sticking my fingers in my ears. I CAN'T HEAR YOU. sorry, brah

was that meant for "Unscientific hearing test: how good is your hearing?"

i think that while we exist with our physical bodies, our physical bodies (pack of neurons) determine so much about who we are. but whether they determine everything, that's the question here, not to be repetitive, just to restate. you're saying they don't. i guess, well, i'm saying they do! but this is because i'm also saying that human form is one kind of physical body, but i think there are other forms we haven't found scientific ways to measure (yet).

my vata self is angry at my unending tamasic and rajasic indulgences

and that those forms are still us, but not this human neuro-pack us
xp

i think that while we exist with our physical bodies, our physical bodies (pack of neurons) determine so much about who we are. but whether they determine everything, that's the question here, not to be repetitive, just to restate. you're saying they don't. i guess, well, i'm saying they do! but this is because i'm also saying that human form is one kind of physical body, but i think there are other forms we haven't found scientific ways to measure (yet).

fair enough, but i'm coming from the perspective of thinking that we're all the same person. that may sound a tad silly but i honestly believe that to be the case. my experiences in life indicate that separation is an illusion.

i think these forms are us, for sure, but not in the way we are accustomed to thinking.

when you drive a car, that car literally becomes an extension of you -- your body-sense extends to cover the car, the thousands of steering adjustments to keep that car on the road become autonomic, you feel invincible.

do you mean we're all the same person in that sense?

look for separation within your awareness. it can't be found.

if we have to do some amazing randy-style test to prove that ppl can affect things at a distance, i will do this, as vulgar as it is.

i have disjunctions in awareness all the time. zoning out, falling asleep. It's like I jumped time. sleep is a kind of time travel.

the fact that you're aware of those disjunctions shows that awareness trumps everything

who is it that's aware of those perceived lapses? i need to know.

ur mom iirc

this is true

lolll

The state of one-ness is an illusion of the brain, promoted by the shamans and rapers of man.

True one-ness can only be achieved with a technologically advanced collectivist society.

there was never separation

ok so xps - i would say all the same consciousness rather than all the same person, but that's prob just a semantics issue. but maybe not, as it seems you're saying something a little different from what i'm saying. i think we're all made of the same stuff, which is not held within the containers of body or self and which goes beyond perceived interactions/communications, but i am also really into the seemingly infinite differences from one body to the next and how that works wrt 'oneness'. because i do not know! it is fascinating.

i can't argue with anything whatsoever that you just wrote.

"the fact that you're aware of those disjunctions shows that awareness trumps everything"

i don't follow. you're saying if I forgot i ate a pie, it's like the pie never existed?

yes.

poor pie :(

nothing exists, per se.
that sounds silly i guess, but if you really look into your experience it's true

what if i remember the pie that philip forgot?

what if i loved that pie

the material world goes on existing just fine whether us puny humans observe it or not. even if i'm a brain in a jar and this is all an illusion, there is still some "real" world out there that i don't have access to.

what if you were a little bit sick and some of the pie splashed up into the back of your throat?

when scientists try to investigate consciousness, it's always within the context of their awareness. nothing has any solidity. this is absolutely true.

it's a new entity at that stage xp

"who is it that's aware of those perceived lapses? i need to know."
the dude or dude(s) in my brain that was expecting it to be 3pm but suddenly it's 10am. then some other dudes go, hey, yo, it's ok you didn't time travel, you just slept for a real long time. there's a separation between the dudes in my own head let alone between me and some pie I ate.

everything takes place within awareness. including your dialogue with those dudes.

there is no separation whatsoever.

reports of past events are merely the echoes of the past event, or the only real thing about that event as far as your awareness is concerned, or is there a difference?

there is only one way to find out.

disappointing response, my past & present minds are not blown, predict that future mind also to be unimpressed

"there is no separation whatsoever."
if there was no separation, I wouldn't be surprised and have to remind myself I'm not a time-travelling pie-eater.

darragh,

your past, present minds don't exist. look into your immediate experience and report back to me.

nunez,
listen, son, there is no separation. this is not about your fictions. look into your experience right now. there is no separation.

mind slightly more blown, fairly satisfied. thank you!

my experience of what? i'd be accessing different experiential entities depending on whether it's visual, literary whatever.

LISTEN NUNEZ. I DON'T LIKE YOU, YOU DON'T LIKE ME. LET'S TRY TO MAKE THE REST OF THIS SEMESTER EASY ON THE BOTH OF US.

looking into the experience of watching dazed and confused will blow your mind fyi

xp lol!

i didn't expect that!

when i was seven years old i dreamt of a wicked witch. it was really scary.

last night i dreamed about the comp "like a girl, i want to keep you coming". the same person dreamed that.

and your dream next sleep-time. there is no separation whatsoever.

I swear i wasn't the one who incepted that wicked witch. believe me I'm separate from whatever entity did that.

listen, druggie, you should maybe quit while you're ahead

look into "you", "self", though. there is no separation. none whatsoever.

if there's no separation btwn anything how come the big bad wolf couldn't eat the thirld little pig

introspection tends to destroy the gestalt illusion of self, at least it does for me. what do you experience?

darrargh
lila

nunez
the bliss of the self. i have obstructions, but glimpses of it involve bliss without obstruction. absolute freedom, perfect love. this has nothing to do with personal attainment. this speaks to reality, unadorned. i can confer this blessing onto others.

if we have to do some amazing randy-style test to prove that ppl can affect things at a distance, i will do this, as vulgar as it is.

^ important and exciting opportunity that has been passed over

You dudes have some crazy theories.

Anyway back to mirror neurons. A couple of months ago I brought them up in a session with my shrink who said he had never heard of them. Last time I saw him, after our 'time' was up, he suddenly said 'So...MIRROR NEURONS!' to which I replied 'I KNOW, right?!' Then he said 'This is the greatest discovery of my lifetime and YOU told me about it'. LOLs @ harvard educated dude is going to remember me forever.