The Other Obligatory Thread: Buffy and Spin-offs

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Buffy = classic until they graduated. After that, dud.
Angel = from the whole two episodes I've seen, classic. Channel 4 = dud for not knowing what to do with it, hence me not watching it very often.
Joss Whedon = responsible for Alien Ressurection though, so dud.

― DG, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"When they graduated" = "when they went to college", right? = SO NOT DUD.
• First, the writing just got better and better, deft and economical and dark (don;t know if you;ve noticed, DG, but the repeats really point up how slow and clumsy editing, writing, reaction shots etc, sometimes were in the first season
• Second, Willow and Oz and Tara and Willow (and also, actually, the evolution of Willow's and Buffy's friendship under the strain of college). The Wymyn = Wicca scene where Willow met Tara was pure comedy genius.
• Third, Anya. Anya = most hilarious character in the whole of Buffy ever. Finally a foil for Zander which makes his, um, Broad Acting Style work for things rather than against them
• Fourth: I seem to be alone in this, but I really really liked the whole Initiative/ Adam idea. Riley Finn himself was a bit of a TOTAL WET BLANKET (tho so is Angel), but as a solution to an obvious niggling difficulty in the Age of the X-Files (as in, howcum the govt is ignoring Sunnydale's slaughter-rate), just v. clever, and as a strategy to intensify what Buffy is anyway abt, the totally fucked crap loneliness of Looking After Others, just v.brilliant
• Fifth: Spike — caught between his doom and his nature — now turns in a GREAT character, very bitter, very sardonic, just ENDLESS FUN.
• Sixth: No Charisma Carpenter, true, BUT NO WESLEY NO WESLEY NO WESLEY the one deeply rubbish character so far.
• Seventh: Can't get benefit of this on UK terrestrtial, so I won't totally vouch, but the emotional-textual interplay of Buffy and Angel (one after the other in the US, parallel plotlines interweaving) = THE FUTURE OF TELEVISION (I hope, tho actually I doubt)< br> • Eighth: The climax, when the Initiative is destroyed, when Buffy is possessed by the FIRST SLAYER breaks Adam? Her look then, and that scene = BEYOND GRATE.
• Ninth: The Dream Episode, where she meets and battles the First Slayer? As good as D.Lynch in Twin Peaks. You are wrong DG and even Ant and Dec kick your sad butt. QED You are right however abt thre fuckwits at C4 and Angel — tho is this not a Make-em- watch E4 scam? Bastards!!

― mark s, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

think we did this on ILM, but i'll just summarise by saying buffy is easily the best programme on tv. and it didn't go downhill as it went on, it got even better. never really seen angel (the prog)

― gareth, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Bah! After they went to *university* it went downhill. You cannot change my opinion on this. That robot thingy was rubbish. The best seasons were the ones with the evil Angel and then the evil mayor. We all know you're some kind of demon anyway Mark, you seem to be able to correct everybody on everything which would imply you've been around for ages, and you watch Buffy so you can KNOW YOUR ENEMY - hence serving your masters Ant & Dec more effectively.

― DG, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

is it just me or does anyone feel cheated by her(buffy) dying..and i understand that it was the final season on the WB(what the hell is channel4?) but even so it's a bit much for fans. and i really think it's going to be another fight out of the underworld (eh..) but i must say it was one hell of a great season for the shit thats usually on tv.

― kevin enas, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Channel 4 = UK channel. They put Angel on at 6pm weeknights originally, but got complaints and started to move it around the schedules trying to find somewhere suitable. The latest I've seen it is about 2am!

― DG, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

EXCUSE ME KEVIN ENAS DO YOU MIND BACK HERE IN THE OLD COUNTRY SOME OF US ARE FOUR COUNT THEM FOUR SEASONS BEHIND USA SCHEDULES AND CAN YOU PLEASE NOT REVEAL SUCH MINOR PLOT POINTS AS *AHEM* "CENTRAL CHARACTER LIKE DIES" WITHOUT CLEAR WARNING PLEASE.

You Have Been Warned.

DG: re Angel on C4 — the daft 6.oo scheduling was surely more evidence of media-foax on crack, tho, no? They had to cut abt 25 minutes from the hour to make it Appropriate!

(Mind you, Futurama shows at 1.oo in the afternoon, and that's non-stop cartoon nobbing some weeks...)

― mark s, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I knew she dies. It was on Teletext. Anyway, Channel 4 should schedule it for when it's convienient for me to watch it, on crack or not.

― DG, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

mark..IT'S NOT LIKE THERE GOING TO LET HER DIE. SHE'S DEAD. BUT NOT...you know. hell and all. she's buffy. come on now.

― kevin enas, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, even Harold Bishop came back from the dead.

― DG, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Comparisons between Buffy and Harold Bishop deserve some sort of punishment. You will be confined here mentally until I come up with something suitable.

Last Wednesday just totally reminded me of why I love Buffy and Angel so much. The Buffy episode was one halfway through season 5, the episode of the funeral of someone significant (I'll say no more). Though Dawn is getting a tad annoying, the final scene with her and Buffy was so moving, and so revealing of the complexities of Buffy's character (funny how she used to be so simple) that I felt like cheering if not for the fact that I was close to tears.

And after leaving Buffy feeling totally emotionally flattened, Angel was so effortlessly, consistently amusing (the one, BTW, where Harmony visits Cordelia) that I was again astonished at the sort of breadth these two shows have. I feel like these shows complete me. And bah! to those who complain about the last two seasons. There's less Faith, which is a CRIME, but the shows just seem to go onwards and upwards.

― Tim, Sunday, 17 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Hey, you can't punish me for two reasons:
1) I'm the Moderator
2) I meant that if even Harold Bishop can come back from the dead, I'm sure Buffy can.
Happy now?

― DG, Sunday, 17 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

one month passes...

who the hell is harold bishop and will there be anouther buffy spin off and they could make buffy like Mr dead on harry enfield and chums just a talking corpse

― Richard ward, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Harold Bishop = too-obvious boob off Neighbours

― Nick, Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Only recently discovered Buffy. Third episode... Cibo Matto is playing in the background. I am *un-hooked*.

― nathalie (nathalie), Friday, 10 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one month passes...

I noticed that the guy who plays Spike is going to be making an appearence at London's Forbidden Planet on the 24th November...but you have to pay £5 for the privaledge. Just thought I'd let y'all know.

― jel, Sunday, 7 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Cor blimey guv, there's a real pea souper in ole London town tonight, me old china, it's a jolly oliday etc. etc.

Went out for a meal w/ some Duffy loving friends last night, and they were moaning 'cos apparently the end of Season 5 was meant to be some super-duper big crossover w/Angel that had to be scrapped 'cos the two series are now owned by separate companies, or something. They were using words like 'compromised', 'letdown', 'copout' etc. etc. I ate my meal quietly, without passing comment, secretly hoping that this might be the beginning of the end...

― Andrew L, Sunday, 7 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Duffy? There's going to be a Casualty/Angel crossover? Fab!

― DG, Sunday, 7 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Buffy just gets better and better. Season 5 was awesome, and having seen the premiere of Season 6...I won't give anything away, but I think it very cleverly sets up certain plot points. It should be a fun season.

― Nicole, Sunday, 7 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

eight months pass...

mark I saw the identity switching one tonight and I THINK WE MAY POSSIBLY BE SOUL MATES. now I just wish I had a dvd player so I could buy dvds of it.

― Josh, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You are all quite obv. mad.

― david h(owie), Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Last week's episode over here = "Dead Things" from Season Six. Buffy's confession to Tara at the end was THE. GREATEST. PIECE. OF. TELEVISION. EVER.

I will brook no disagreeement on this.

― Tim, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You especially and him wiv/out the Shift button.

― david h(owie), Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i have just realised that my strategy of waiting for series 6 to show on bbc 2 may well be a disaster - cos they're blatently not going to show it until i've moved to boston. oh NO!!!

but on the other hand i see that box set 6.1 is out next week. hmm. can i justify the £30??? and when will 6.2 be on the shelves????

(oh and if anyone in london has angel series 1 on video and wants to let me borrow it i'd be v grateful; i can lend angel series 2/buffy seires 4 in return...)

― toby, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Angel was on last night, it's only the second time I've watched a full episode (compared with three whole episodes of Buffy!), it was enjoyable. Though all the demon stuff reminded me too much of Charmed (which came first?). I think I will probably watch Angel more often as it is on at a good time, well, for me. (cue: 10.30 on a Saturday night, are you some kind of mentalist? responses).

― jel --, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the demon karaoke was not v.typical jel (poss.because v.camp and funny) => plus also it WAS a very "charmed" ep, actually (angel/prue: "oh what is right and what is wrong and why do i always choose wrong!!??" the viewer: "oh shut up and kick face!!") => but the stuff in the gym was fantastic, and then angel afterwards ruminating abt how great gyms are!!

― mark s, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark S is, as so often, OTM about Buffy. Its progress and ability to sustain character development and come up with new banter impresses the hell out of me, and I love it dearly. I was out celebrating my birthday last night, and I haven't watched the Angel I videoed (video'd?) yet, but am I alone in thinking that Angel is fine but about a hundredth as brilliant as Buffy? I mean:
* it has less wit
* watching a big bloke beat up the baddies is nowhere near as much fun as watching a small woman do so
* WESLEY
* when someone told me that Cordelia and Angel were to team up in a spinoff I thought they were taking the piss. Turns out that it's the show doing so - does anyone believe this?
* giving Cordelia superpowers
* it lacks the essential conflict between living the life of a young woman and having cosmic responsibility
* it lacks Willow (and other top characters)
* Angel has been a bore ever since getting better after dying and going to hell. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Whedon admitted that he writes a whole season of Angel in the time he takes on each episode of Buffy. I should emphasise that I do enjoy the show, and am judging it on the highest possible standards for TV actioners, i.e. against Buffy.

― Martin Skidmore, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This last season of Angel was a lot better than Buffy. I figure the Season 6 finale hasn't hit y'all yet but it SUCKS.

Angel, up until the April hiatus, was fun, fast-paced, affecting, exciting, all that good stuff that Buffy once was. After the hiatus it got less interesting but hey still better than all of GOTH ASS Buffy season 6. Jeez--I'm not into all that super-dark moping and tragedy-jocking.

― adam, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha adam i just remembered you live in ANNE-RICE-OPOLIS, no?

― mark s, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ah. Perhaps I should have watched that first episode of the new series of Angel before saying what I thought. Typical.

I loved it. Some of it made no sense (an emergency call to Cordelia to fight the demons?), but right from the Homicide-style boards, I enjoyed it hugely. Forcing Angel into karaoke was beautiful, it focussed on redemption (if Angel has an interesting aspect, that's it), the way the Tribunal appeared was terrific (fight scene was banal, though), and I started looking at Angel's relationship with the urban-guerilla demon-fighters as something not unlike the under- underworld in Andrew Vachss's novels.

I still don't like it as much as Buffy, by a long way, but it's much better than I recalled.

― Martin Skidmore, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha adam i just remembered you live in ANNE-RICE-OPOLIS, no?

Yeah, but the character of New Orleans is more surly complaining drunkenness than lacy gothic bloodletting eroticism.

Anyway, Buffy season 6 started piling the emotional baggage way too high, to the point where I stopped caring, which is where Buffy stopped being great. Without that emotional involvement, my suspension of disbelief and critical faculties can only withstand so many cringeworthy stories and so much painful dialogue, which the second half of S6 has lots of.

Angel, on the other hand, was (for most of the season) more lighthearted than it had ever been, allowing the characters to, like, flesh themselves out a bit-- Cordelia became much more believable as a sidekick, Gunn chilled out, etc--and draw us into the bitchin' story arc. Admittedly, said arc kind of fizzled later but from say January-April, Angel was brilliant nearly every week.

― adam, Sunday, 9 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think that Buffy Season 6 is sort of post-Buffy - in the sense that the show tied up so much at the end of Season 5 that Season 6 feels like the characters woke up after the end credits and found their lives continuing on. Season 4 felt similar, but I think not as strongly because uni is such a logical follow-on from school => whereas now the show has this totally directionless feel, despite the fact that there's clearly a story arc at work.

I don't think this is a bad thing, incidentally, but it makes for a very odd season. Then again, all seasons of Buffy are odd.

― Tim, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I love the way that TWOP calls Dawn 'Shiny McWhiny'. They're SO on the money.

― Sarah, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i must at this point admit that i was WRONG and am no longer a buffy- hata, to the bemusement of boyfwiend (who remains a hata). i wuv buffy! and the gentlemen are the scariest thing EVAH. Rick can we watch buffy tonight can we can we (boyfwiend is going to see Brian Wilson = buffy opportunity ahoy!)

― katie, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

can we can we can we PLEEEAAASSEEE????

― katie, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

OK. But I've got to go to Beng's to pick up some stuff first, so I might not be back until 19:30ish.

― RickyT, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hurrah! say hi to BTG for me!

― katie, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the whole gentlemen episode was absolutely wonderful.

― Josh, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

josh are you on a buffy binge?

― mark s, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

no mark I saw the gentlemen one like a month ago but there is no buffy luv at the residence so I have to reach out to you interweb mentalists

― Josh, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha if only I COULD go on a buffy binge but it's only on twice a week

― Josh, Monday, 10 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Josh, if you got basic cable it is on twice a day (on FX).

Actually it is on 3 times today because they are having the last two episodes of season 5 on FX and a rerun of one from Season 6 on UPN. I know, I know, very sad that I know all this. But I am not watching any of them, I'm far too busy today, that's all I can say in my defense.

Season 6 = a mixed bag. Some really great episodes, but many a great big pile of meh. The finale made up for a lot, imo. What will happen to Spoike and Willow the big question going into season 7.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

SPOILAHS WILL BE DUSTED

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

HEY right I INSIST no more Buffy fests until I can come over bearing PORT!!!!!!!! I need to see Hush again!!!!!

― Sarah, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

we watched THREE episodes of Buffy last night!! i wuv spike when he tells people to piss orf and calls them wankahs. hehehehehhhh.

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark is a sensitive flowah, so I made sure there wasn't any spoilers in my last post.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But I will back what Adam said about Angel: it was GRATE this season, despite the fact that Angel is an annoying dullard. It's the rest of the characters that make the show.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

my favourite joke is to call Angel Angle. me and boyfwiend even made up a spoof theme to "Angle" which culminates in us saying "Angle!" in scary voices and framing our faces with right angles made from our hands. i know it's crap but it makes me happier than a Jedi with two lightsabres!

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I did the angel angle joke in forbidden planet when the bloke from angel was doing a signing...me and my friend were like "who is that" (why the hell is this shop so full up, can't they see i wanna get to the comics!)and i said "i think it's angle or something like that" and this middle aged man turned round and said to me "no, actually it's angel! hmmpphh!". Maybe, it was funnier at the time.

― jel --, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

jel you met comic-book guy!

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

BLIMEY jel, what mark s said! what you should have said was "ooohhh, he's mean and moody and hangs around in graveyards with a wooden expression he's..... angleANGLE!!!" and then done the thing with the hands. then everyone would have understood!

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

If Angle heard what Jel said he'd get so cross he'd probably have to go eat another stick of butter.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And he STILL looks like Dane Bowers.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

heh - Angle "Bomb Diggy" whatever angle's last name is...

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

HA HA Angle = butter boy and Riley = SPUD BOY! To be sure Angles last name is "O'Woodenface" and sure won't he do a fabulous Oirish accent in the flashbacks - ooh where's me pig to put under me arm ect ect. "Sure won't ye haaarrvve anotheer derrrink" <-- still a better Irish accent than Angles!

― Sarah, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

RIGHT! This has been bugging me for a while now. How come Angel lost his comedy oiiirish accent, while Spike still does bad impressions of Dick Van Dyke? I know Angel's older than Spike, but if someone doesn't lose their accent after 100 years or so, I hardly think another 100 is going to make that much difference.

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ooh ooh *puts hand up* maybe spike's accent is so crap cos it is in the PROCESS of changing? then in another 150 years or so he'll be all valley like the rest of them. and what is the link between angle and butter, what have i missed?

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Because David Boreanz couldn't keep it up!

Or continue to do his Irish accent for a sustained amount of time HUR HUR.

― Sarah, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry readers. I will be leaving my workplace of misery to go to the bar in precisely 10 minutes.

― Sarah, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

but WHOT is the link between Angle "Bomb Diggy" O'Woodenface and the BUTTER! Sarah! don't go to the bar! tell me!

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

One time I was watching a scene where Angle is sad and almost crying and I said "Angle is so upset he's going to find another stick of butter to chomp on" because he is so puffy and bloated. So now I always talk about him eating sticks of butter.

He probably drinks melted butter instead of blood.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

it;s all very well saying spike's accent is crap but i know several (english) ppl — no names mentioned — who didn't realise he wasn't english till it was pointed out, and they listened quite carefully => it's not perfect obv, but it's not bad either (and — counter theories above — it is GETTING BETTER) (probably thanks to not being wiv drusilla any more)

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

it is better than Johnny Depp's accent in From Hell. but that ain't saying much! i think it's quite good most of the time but there are times when it slips, especially in longer speeches. "Piss orf" is highly amusing and also he once told someone not to "pay-tronise" him.

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

and also, hahahahaaaaa it is better than Giles's cockernee accent when he got teenager-ised!

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And shagged like a stevedore hahahaha!

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Wait wait wait Josh is ahead of me in the syndication, the bastard: I caught the cliffhanger first-part of Slayer-identity- switching on Sunday and now I have to wait until Saturday and be home at 4:00 p.m. (because obv. how could I have anything better to do than be home at 4:00 p.m. on Saturday) to see the remainder.

Riley seems vaguely okay from a distance but as soon as the camera closes in and he starts to do something he becomes a massive disappointment. Half of the time Buffy's concern for him comes off more as the searching pity of "why aren't you interesting enough for this show."

Q: Has anyone else had difficulty deciding how to feel about Xander's delivery eventually entirely syncing up with Matthew Perry's on Friends? (Sometimes I like to imagine that Xander eventually changes his name and moves to New York to escape the trauma of his past life in Sunnydale.)

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mr S is right, it is getting better. Maybe not as a whole, but there are fewer glaring word slips like the aforementioned 'paytronise'.

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(Also can we discuss why Tara bothers me so much?)

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hmm that is exactly what i was thinking about xander last night. when they're all together at skool it's fine as he's just playing off the others and all his remarks seem to fit in, but in season 4 he seems to just fire them off randomly in a very "friends" stylee, as if he's just making a gag for the sake of making a gag. funnily enough also my friend BTG sa that he doesn't watch buffy as it reminds him too much of Friends, i wonder if he just got contaminated by watching xander? though i suppose you could say that since he's not at college withthe rest of the scooby gang he is trying extra extra hard to be the same good ol xander and looking uncomfortable because of it. actually that fits dunnit?

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

RickyT sa Tara = bovine, which is cruel but on the whole fair.

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The Xander/Chandler convergence has been bothering me as well. Their deliveries (and jokes for that matter) are worrying similar, yet I don't find Xander even 1/1000th part as annoying as Chandler. This got in me in a bit of a hole last Saturday when I was trying to explain to a Buffy hata why Friends is nothing at all like Buffy: I just couldn't explain why Xander is grebt and Chandler is rub.

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Buffy hata = BTG = person who thinks WILL AND FUCKING GRACE is funny, so we should maybe not pay too much attention to his hatred

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"xandler" ho ho!!

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Now I'm finally watching the middle of season 4, I'm sort of half warming to Tara. Maybe she's being a bit less bovine than in 5 but she's not quite as annoying somehow. Or it might just be cos she's not as omnipresent.

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha when dr vick asked the tara question i answered "because she's a lesbian" and was (quite properly) pelted with cushions => so that is not the answer!!

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It might just be as simple as her being responsible for Willow wearing rubbish hippy clothes.

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

also she is <<<< cool than Oz

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hey you i like willow's rubbish hippy clothes!

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

that's cos yr a rubbish hippy!

― RickyT, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

GGRRRRR YOU I am going home now. expect poop in yr bed!

― katie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the actual answer is this (we thrashed it out, with cushions AND chilled braneZoR): it is necessary for the scooby-vs-newbie dynamics that tara be somewhat unacceptable to we the viewers, so that we can EMPATHISE with buffy et al when they are uneasy that "their" willow is being enticed away, w/o SIMPLY thinking oh they are afraid of her gayness (or indeed, agreeing that they shd be) => so tara's iritatingness has to be very borderline, where you can't quite decide if it IS a dodgy portrait of a type (ie you and by extension buffy et al are being cliquy and/or prejudiced) or rather that she is, in fact, a bit lame (ie "we" are right to be irritated, because we wuv willow and she can do bettah)

classic buffy-style symmetry = tara is willow's shiny mcwhiny

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(NB Will and Grace is funny.)

"Bovine" is on the whole true: more specifically though she has this docile backwoods drug-casualty vibe about her that reminds me of several hugely-damaged girls I knew in rural Michigan who'd been raised in hidden trailers with shotgun-clutching acid-case parents who would see helicopters pass and start preparing for impending U.N. invasion. It's as if they paired Willow's cute-dopyness with Tara's motherly-dopyness, part of this ongoing decision that Willow's character couldn't possibly tolerate a companion who was at all like sharp (despite time spent with Xander and Buffy) -- as if pairing her with someone like that would doubly eclipse her as a figure in the show. Which is a bit true but it doesn't change the fact that (a) Tara can be irritating and (b) Willow's hot and could do way better (in fact I think Willow + Riley would have been all to realistic).

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

except riley = 20 squazillion times more irritating than tara

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

shiny mcwhiny is buffy's child <=> tara is willow's child

sex-relationships of main characters are not abt equality of companionship (the scoobies provide that) (that's why angel and cordelia had to go: the argument from dynamic structure)

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(i mean glory-damaged tara = willow's child)

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

this device is necessary to access willow's actual (as opposed to cartoon) darkness

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

nbitashitibsic, I'm not ahead, I haven't seen the second half either.

and chandler is way funnier than xander, y'all are on crack.

― Josh, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Chandler=Xander, Rachel=Buffy, Phoebe=Willow, Monica=Anya, Ross=Giles, Joey=Angel then Riley? Buffy is vastly the better show, obv.

― Martin Skidmore, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh good God it is horrifying how right Martin is (although the peak of his rightness is the Anya/Monica thing, which can be somewhat explained by the original Xandler phenomenon).

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

could martin BE more wrong?

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

joedy with rachel, er, hullo?

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Joey = SPIKE!

― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

joey with rachel, er, hullo?

Hahaha Mark has obviously not seen the ads for the last season, meaning he is 0% right in comparison to Dan's 99% rightness.

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(Future Friends story arcs are going to have to depend on either homoeroticism or incest to keep the romantic angles fresh.)

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ok (and also ew) but in that case the mere total permutation-ness of friends proves my point

the only person i haf evah met who admitted to fancying rachel (i don't mean j.anistonopolos i mean rachel) was a rawthah flaky lesb i knew fr a while who was very extremely shallow and vain and announced that she felt she and she alone cd make rachel happy (er yes but she is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER) => so is she alone or do others feel they are rachel's real-time soulmates?

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the only way anyone could fancy Rachel-as-character would be if the fancier perceived him or herself as having absolutely no character traits whatsoever: Rachel is quite possibly the blankest character ever created.

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(Actually I'm not even sure it's appropriate to call her a "character": she is a body and a collection of mannerisms and maybe three to five characteristic emotional responses but that's about the extent of it. It's nearly impossible to imagine her doing anything personal or non-functional, much less having an opinion about anything.)

― nabisco%%, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Dude, you've just described 75% of America.

― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

On Nabisconitsuh logic Rachel=Riley.

― Ellie, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

that makes more sense to me than giles = ross

― mark s, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what on earth is happening with the second spin off, Ripper? i really did think that the idea a Buffy spin off starring Giles was just some very bad joke..

― Wyndham Earl, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

From what I heard Ripper is on hold: Joss Whedon is working on his new scifi show Firefly first.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually I liked Rachel/Buffy because of the polarity of their senses of entitlement and responsibility: perhaps when Buffy was in heaven she was actually just on Friends, as Rachel, with the wealthy family and clothes-horsing and everything Buffy probably would be if not for the whole hardened constantly-saving-the-universe Slayer thing.

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 12 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But yes, more accurately Riley=Rachel.

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 12 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

if you look at it in Simpsons terms, Buffy is the Bart of the show.

weak but identifiable character more suited as a sort of narrative 'pivot' device.

― Wyndham Earl, Wednesday, 12 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Buffy the Narrative Pivot?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 12 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"if you look at it in Simpsons terms, Buffy is the Bart of the show.

weak but identifiable character more suited as a sort of narrative 'pivot' device."

This is very incorrect. I can see what you're getting at but I think the superficial similarities between the two set-ups is undone by more crucial disparities. The Simpsons is pretty much in suspended time, so its movement is lateral, its scope broadens - hence the role of the central character is much like a pivot. Cf. Buffy, which has a diachronic approach to its characters, and thus Buffy is not a narrative pivot but rather a narrative lense (ie. "deepens" rather than "broadens") and is a huge influence on not just who else we see, but the way we see them.

― Tim, Thursday, 13 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So you hate spoilers eh, to fucken bad. Buffy comes back, Xander and anya split, spike gets his soul back, Willow kills warren, willow goes insane and is stopped by xander, the show"angel" licks undead 250 something year old balls, Tara is shot and killed, klem is the man, willow is sent to an asylum, Giles is elected as mayor, and Spike's a funny prick who tries to rape buffy but screws Anya.

― Logan, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

six months pass...

riley is planning to go home to 'a farm near huxley' in iowa for thanksgiving - right by where I went to high school!

― Josh (Josh), Monday, 16 December 2002 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Could someone please say something about Buffy so I can post a longwinded reply?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 16 December 2002 10:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim: I seem to be one of the only people who can really only stomach season 6 and now season 7. Portions of season 5 appeal to me, but anything before that and I find the show a bit stupid. But I actually really unreservedly loved season 6.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 16 December 2002 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

What, even the magic is like drugs DO-YOU-SEE being rammed home with the force of a herd of ramapaging elephants?

― RickyT (RickyT), Monday, 16 December 2002 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

That wasn't so great, but it was conveniently ignored.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 16 December 2002 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"Tim: I seem to be one of the only people who can really only stomach season 6 and now season 7. Portions of season 5 appeal to me, but anything before that and I find the show a bit stupid. But I actually really unreservedly loved season 6."

Melissa, have you seen much of (the almost mythically great) Season 3? Dark like Season 6 - as was the second half of Season 2 actually - but with more consistent writing than Season 6 (I can't speak for 7).

Is what attracts you to Season 6 the fact that Buffy has been less superhero-ish? The rolling cutbacks in perkiness?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 16 December 2002 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

two word

Jonathan Episode.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Monday, 16 December 2002 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked the second half of season 4 a lot. I liked what I saw of season 6 until ITV Digital went bankrupt circa Xander's wedding.

BUFFY THE MUSICAL ON BBC2 THIS THURSDAY!

― Graham (graham), Monday, 16 December 2002 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Season 6 was inconsistent, but excellent at points. Season 7 is GREBT, although I'm less than thrilled with the 'cliffhanger' from the last ep.

Brandspankin' new ep tommorow night, in which Buffy gets her oats.

― J (Jay), Monday, 16 December 2002 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

season six: magic not a metaphor for drugs, rickyt

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 December 2002 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I like most of season 7. The magic jacket episdoe was so dumb I can't even remember what happened. But the others have been good.

mark s: please explain!

― rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 16 December 2002 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

(I'm guessing Mark means that drugs are a metaphor for magic?)

This season is just pure barelling plot, which is making the episodes themselves textually clunky but still pretty compelling.

Josh, you know Riley was lying about Iowa: Walsh had important plans to chain him naked to an Initiative wall for holiday testing.

I'm rewatching the whole Glory arc, which I think is fantastic.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 16 December 2002 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

no that magic is a metaphor for some kind of non-magical power or knowledge or somthing (mark s to flit in soon and drop a not totally helpful expansion/correction ha).

spike's current accent was adopted as an affectation after he was bit. I think that gives angel plenty of license for his to have changed in whatever way makes tv-sense.

― Josh (Josh), Monday, 16 December 2002 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

ten

― Josh (Josh), Monday, 16 December 2002 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the emphasis on cold turkey and withdrawal symptoms, especially as placed in parallel with Buffy's similar quandary over Spike, made the magic=drugs equation a bit inescapable, but at the same time it doesn't fit Willow's use of magic in order to give her life purpose (as opposed to simply distracting her from that purpose). Elements of Willow's struggle have already appeared in the show in a totally non-drugs context: Faith's turn to the darkside - occuring in the performance and enjoyment of her Slayer duties - foreshadows Willow's increasing use of magic without regard for its necessity or ethical justification. Likewise the Glory and final-eps-Willow share the same superbad-status, with their combined absolute power and implacability of purpose conferring a supreme amorality (cf. the Master, Angelus and the Mayor, who all had clear traits of immorality as well) in which all ethical considerations are reduced to mere contingencies. Tellingly, both were defeated via acts of sacrifice (if you count Buffy's suicide as "defeating" Glory). Buffy's renunciation of life/status/power and Xander's status as the Snoopy Gang member without any special power (except the power to love - awww) are both symbolic, stating implicitly that "I am caught within a net of ethical, social and personal considerations, but this is the very thing that empowers my decisions."

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 00:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim your well-considered insights are completely invalidated by calling it the Snoopy gang!!!

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 02:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Buffy = Charlie Brown
Dawn = Lucy
Willow = Peppermint Patty
Tara = Marcie
Giles = Schroeder
Xander = Linus
Spike = Pigpen
Riley = Franklin

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 02:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually I think that almost works better than Giles/Fred, Buffy/Velma, Willow/Velma, Xander/Shaggy.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 02:54 (twenty-two years ago)

No way, 'cause Lucy is great and Dawn is atrocious. Maybe she should be Sally, Sally's a bit annoying.

― rosemary (rosemary), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 03:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, which one is Charlie's sister? If that's Sally then I meant Sally.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 08:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I think Anya / Cordelia = Lucy and Dawn = Sally.

BTW, that ep SUCKED. Very disappointing.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 02:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't think so.

― Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 04:23 (twenty-two years ago)

can someone explain to me how the total utter change in wesley occured? bear in mind I have only seen him since somewhere during the season where angel's baby is born.

― Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 04:24 (twenty-two years ago)

only seen him in those angel episodes, I mean. but I have seen all his buffy ones I think.

― Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely in the Buffy Gang/Scooby Gang comparisons, Cordelia=Velma and Buffy=Scooby? Buffy as Scooby makes much more sense: Both are the titular character ("couldn't have the show without ya" and all that), both are the ones who end up catching the crook each week, both are secretly lusted after by the Shaggy figure...

― Simon Generic, Wednesday, 18 December 2002 08:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"can someone explain to me how the total utter change in wesley occured? bear in mind I have only seen him since somewhere during the season where angel's baby is born."

Half reformed in between Buffy and his reappearance on Angel (became more of a superhero, though still an occasionally bumbling one), then under Angel's tutelage he gained confidence, brawn and an ability to think for himself. The big clincher though was when Angel went weird and fired Wesley and Cordelia, so that Wesley became head of what was formerly Angel Investigations. Which he still is, I think. Responsibility does odd things to people (look at Buffy!).

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

That Slayer in training sounded like the bastard child of Eliza Doolittle and Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins. Oy gevalt.

― rosemary (rosemary), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I was more bothered by It's Not Really Dru But It's Just As Annoying.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

It was written by Marti Noxon, which explains the rub aspects of it -I think she is the First Evil.

I would like to know what the principal's deal is. Is he EEEEVIL, or just a sleeper/tool of the First, or an undercover Watcher, or what?

― Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm torn between two interpretations. (a) He is black and on Buffy = he will turn out evil eventually. (b) Whedon's noticed this and is reversing trend.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Kendra wasn't evil though! But she had a horrible accent and died a lame Jango Fett death, so I see your point.

― Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm torn between two interpretations. (a) He is black and on Buffy = he will turn out evil eventually. (b) Whedon's noticed this and is reversing trend."

How many other black characters have there been actually? Riley's friend? I think the original principal was black but he was a) nice, and b) killed before he could become evil.

Oh yeah and didn't Kendra end up on Dawson's Creek? That was odd.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

'the ice is so slippery, and monkeys are so irrational'

!!!

― Josh (Josh), Tuesday, 24 December 2002 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Mr Tricks was another black character. He was a nasty man who met a dusty end.

― Celeste (Celeste), Tuesday, 24 December 2002 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

three weeks pass...

I think that Buffy seems to be in a slow process of pruning away the most annoying characters. Now the only really intolerable one is Dawn, but before they had Cordelia, Wesley, Riley, Angel, Oz, High School Willow, Glory, Ben, Drusilla, Harmony...

I also like that in these newer episodes (seasons 6 and 7), the whole show just seems consumed with depressive lethargy.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Saturday, 18 January 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Meanwhile, Angel is pretty much all annoying characters. I usually watch the show with my mother, and we suddenly realized that we both hate every character except Wesley (who somehow is far less annoying on Angel) and Lilah. Fred, Gunn, Cordelia, Connor, Angel...all grating.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Saturday, 18 January 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

it's like life!!

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 18 January 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Not MY life. He said haughtily.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 January 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

You're just saying that because you're a Cordelia.

― Nicole (Nicole), Saturday, 18 January 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

It must be a compliment! ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 January 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I found out my parents watch Angel. They like the "green singing man". They'd never even heard of Buffy. I'm not sure if I find that very cool or very odd. Mind you I've always wondered that about my family.

― Celeste (Celeste), Saturday, 18 January 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

* still recovering from shock of hearing High School Willow and Oz described as "annoying"*

They're showing Season 4 again over here...if Oz is hip to The Velvet Underground (at one point in today's episode he was inspecting Giles' record collection and geeked out- in his own catatonic way, of course- over Loaded), how come his band sounds like Nickelback? And how the hell do Eater (whose t-shirt he has worn in earlier seasons) fit in with this?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Saturday, 18 January 2003 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...

A brief thought that came into my head today:
Buffy and everyone around her are damaged people who can no longer function in a normal way. This is what I like about seasons 6 & 7.
There's this sense that they're all *this close* to becoming total gibbering wrecks. They're tired. All they can do is save the world. And if that was no longer a priority, then they'd simply cease to function. They no longer relate to the rest of the world. They've lost all ambition, all traces of outside lives.
There can never be a happy ending for them.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Sunday, 11 May 2003 05:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you're talking about the writers of the show.

― Carey (Carey), Sunday, 11 May 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

All they can do is save the world. And if that was no longer a priority, then they'd simply cease to function.

Substitute 'write about music' for 'save the world' and that's been me at some of my darker moments over the past couple of years. It's been an interesting adjustment...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 11 May 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

What season are you in, Ned, and what's the story arc?

I love Buffy so much that I am deeply saddened by most of Season 7 (I actually loved season 6). I don't think the writers intentionally made them out to be shadows of their former selves but rather the writers and maybe actors can't get it up anymore. Buffy is this cold cold bitch now and SMG can only act with her patented "argry arms" (tm TWOP).

― Carey (Carey), Sunday, 11 May 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, hush. You should know better than that.

― Nicole (Nicole), Sunday, 11 May 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't forget the pursed lips, Carey! That's her only other patented acting tic this season.

― Nicole (Nicole), Sunday, 11 May 2003 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah someone said that it's hard to tell the difference between 1st Buffy and good Buffy now.

― Carey (Carey), Sunday, 11 May 2003 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

It is. The only difference is that the 1st Buffy is sometimes nice to Caleb, and I see no evidence of the real Buffy being nice to anyone.

― Nicole (Nicole), Sunday, 11 May 2003 14:17 (twenty-two years ago)

am I the only one who totally regrets that the long-awaited Buffy cartoon never got on the air?

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 12 May 2003 07:15 (twenty-two years ago)

No. I loved the concept drawings that were done for it, it probably would have been a lot of fun.

― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

nine months pass...

Buffy's little sis in her own teen movie

― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 25 February 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I preferred Angel post S3 Buffy.

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 26 February 2004 15:48 (twenty-one years ago)

After "Eurotrip," she'll be seen on HBO's "Six Feet Under" as a spoiled, Christina Aguilera-like pop diva.

Sweet!

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 26 February 2004 16:15 (twenty-one years ago)

They forgot the 'who has died and needs to be interred' part -- but she's still spoiled from BEYOND THE GRAVE.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 February 2004 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...

Hey! How come no one told me that Alyson married Wesley?

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

how crazy is that?! for real!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

for the harold bishop mentions alone this thread is classic

― pete s, Tuesday, 30 March 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

two years pass...

Not really a spin off, but HBO have given Alan Ball the green light to do True Blood - based on Charlaine Harris' 'Southern Vampire' series. I'm hoping it might be the 'Claire Fisher - Vampire Slayer' mashup I always dreamt of.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 18 July 2006 08:41 (eighteen years ago)

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