The tragic ineptitude of the English male (attn: Emma?)

Her second mistake: Assuming that they are at all representative of British males.

That's not to say I'm not tragically inept, of course. But NOT LIKE THAT.

The author seems to think that every English man went to public school and is a borderline drunk. And I thought we established, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT DATING IS!

except when i'm actually watching him irl obv, when he stops

However, I still feel bound to take issue with Tim (quel surprise) over this: equal pay in the workplace and the guy pays for everything on a date. Even though I find wanting a man to pay for everything a bit suspect, I WOULD NEVER assert that if you do, you are somehow not entitled to expect equal pay at work. The two issues are very different - one to do with private behaviours and customs, one to do with non-discriminatory legislation.

The paying thing is odd: sometimes it feels confident and generous ("look look I can give someone something good") and sometimes it feels demeaning ("do I really have to pay to have someone spend time with me?"). Even that first impulse worries me, because it feels vaguely empowering, and surely part of that empowerment is specifically related to dominance. But these aren't big worries: most of the time I'm happy to pay, because I honestly do appreciate someone spending time with anyone as boring as me.

The piece was bollocks, and fits with a strange doublethink attitude from the US (I know she is Canadian, but her attitude matches). English men, they think, are upper class twits who would make the most rub lovers possible. But when I was in America, I was more in demand sexually in a fortnight than in almost any year at home. Maybe it is that the classy image sort of sticks, and you seem romantic and even a touch exotic, but if you can avoid resembling Prince Charles (though I have the ears) they find you sexy with it and excuse you from the bad parts of the stereotype?

Why have I never moved to America?

But forget the Canadian skank: when I check this thread on Monday I want to see what Real Live British Women think about the general potential for ineptitude among their men. If I make reservations before the 7th I get an advance fare reduction.

Hey! Some are, you know!

This kind of story comes up every couple of years and can be discounted for the simple reason that most people (Momus to thread!) date individuals rather than representatives of a nation/culture/race.

There is also though a counter-myth which endures among some English people that if an English bloke goes to the States his exotic gentility (and 'sexy accent') will have a magnetic effect on the ladies. I assume this is equally rub.

been in canada for nearly 3 months and only one 'I like your accent' type comment from a girl here. Tom is right (unfortunately):(

AHAHAHA! I don't care if it's true! It's so funny to mock you guys!

In western terms, though, yeah: I have this deep intuitive conviction that I would do much much better in the UK and western Europe.

Being asked to say "roundabout" (or whatever) by every new person you met never stopped being amusing, either.

The reverse is also true.

Shooting fish in a barrel is like romancing English girls?

Incidentally, the first thing that always strikes me about that simile is not "dead easy" but "fucking stupid and pointless". I don't imagine that that is what is meant about romancing English girls, obv.

I'm quite sure after going out with Leah, roughly a dozen repressed Etonian stockbrokers came to the conclusion that she was a pushy, demanding creature.

Actually being repressed Etonian stockbrokers they probably thought: "Damn nice legs that filly, but bloody high maintenence. Never even got her in the sadle."

Yuck to all sides. Others may disagree with me, but I don't like the idea of men paying for everything. If you both have roughly the same income level and there's no special occassion, then why should some poor bloke you hardly know pay for your evening out? Do you owe him something then? I'd rather go into a relationship paying halves and feeling like an equal not a call girl. Random acts of chivalry can be nice (especially carrying heavy bags), but only if they fit the person. If you'd fallen for cheeky ladish charm, them starting to pull out chairs would be a creepy personality transplant. There's nothing wrong with making people feel special/ wanted/ whatever. Surely it should be a two way thing?

I loathe this article. Why should her (North America's?) stand on getting together be taken as the golden one. Shouldn't she try to adapt? When in Rome etc. I can't help thinking (call me paranoid) that the implication is there that English women are a scruffy bunch who don't live in the gym and go out with no make up and just don't have the self-esteem to force their men to treat them like princesses. ("No honestly, she wasn't even wearing heels! No wonder her husband was flirting with me. These girls have no id

If i asked a girl out (sorry that should be 'if i can utter the words: I'd like to take you out sometime' or something like that without vomiting first like that kid from South Park) then I would be happy to pay because i think it would be unfair on the girl (especiallly if she didn't want anything to do woith me after the date). I don't see it from the 'call girl' perspective at all. And after that, I'd be happy to share.

''I can't help thinking (call me paranoid) that the implication is there that English women are a scruffy bunch who don't live in the gym and go out with no make up and just don't have the self-esteem to force their men to treat them like princesses.''

Anna- are you the author who wrote 'Bridget Jones' diary (I can't resist it, especially after the 'paranoid' line)?

Of course, what kind of sick nation is this were people dont carry something to tell at least who they are?

P.S.: I just love Anna's browser eating her last words

After hearing Emma's theory on Sunday Ihave started to have doubts. Why? Because it obviously puts all the blame in the mens arena. Part of the problem is that not all women have adapted to a post-femist stance, hence generalisations on how men should act with ALL women is stupid. What this shouldn't do (but unfortunately probably does do) is that men aim for the least offensive stance possible, which generally means treating woman as just another person you go out for a drink with. This is fine up to a point but lacks the necessary romance and "bonk me round the head drag me to your cave" aspect which media depictions of relationships have in spades.

There is possibly something in the stereotypical English fear of embarrassment which can be factored in too.

The discussion with my mum is now coming back to me and we also touched on the thorny issue of class. She grew up in a working class sort of way and reckons it is middle class boys who are sappy and afraid of upsetting women or unleashing their testosterone or something like that. I am not sure if she wants me to bring home a bit of rough or an aristocrat now though. I should've asked.

Surely English men with Scottish accents = all English men who have ever done an appalling Sean Connery accent = all English men?

(blimey that double anecdote is a lot more than the sum of its parts...)

I'm not quite sure what 'scare quotes' are, but I wrote 'women' as Leah whatserface was writing about what she calls women and I'd call ladies.

I was drawing a distinction between Women, girls and ladies.

I am reading and replying to things in this thread in an odd order, sorry.

What's all this lady/woman business? If one wants to use that word, surely 'ladies' consitute a subset of 'women'. I wish Tim.B would explain what he's on about.

I am not sure how I feel about my name being used in this thread title, it implies that either the tragic ineptitude is my fault or that I am an expert on it.

My cutoff point for "girl" is about 30. Does this mean anything?

Seems like a good point for a post of the "original" Lady Emma Hamilton

N: Nope, ladies are not a subset of women. The two are both subsets of female humans.

Ricky T and Graham get virtually bang-on what my thoughts are; the two definitions of 'lady' melded the other day when a male human being referred to 'my lady' in a cross between the two... rather like 'my car,' 'my flat' etc. (connected with that scared-of-women internet-mentalist attitude Ricky T identifies) crossed with that assumption that he is there to protect her because she's a delicate little thing that needs protecting. N. B. If you are a delicate little thing that needs protecting or not, or any other sort of thing, you have no thoughts or feelings, only a body, like a Barbie doll.

I am of that age when 'lady' was a major bete noir of feminists and I've just been unable to shake it. But it is useful in describing what Leah and her friends are (a cross between ladies and bimbos, from what I can remember of the article). Similarly, the terms 'psychopath' and 'macho idiot' exist alongside 'men' to describe the male portion of the human race.

And the problem here is, of course, that not everyone is of the same age and culture as I; my grandmother would have considered herself a lady, and referred to people as 'ladies' intending it as a compliment. But then: when she was born, women didn't have the vote; women got the vote when she was 30 or so, and the legally-enforced right to equal pay for the same job when she was well past retirement age. About a decade after she died parliament passed a law abolishing the defence 'I'm married to the plaintiff' in rape cases.

And maybe it's just the case that 20-somethings, unaware of all these fights and the '70s/'80s attitude to the word 'lady' see nothing wrong with it. But I've never heard it used without something slightly unpleasant under it.

I need to get back on topic here, don't I? I associate female-people- who-hold-certain-attitudes with the 19th Century and the use of the word 'lady,' and a lot of these attitudes seemed to me to be present in Leah's article in the Speccie. These would be: there's a war between the sexes; the objective of the female side is to extract money and other things of monetary value from the male side; the weapon females use is sex (implication: female human beings can't and don't enjoy sex); the objective of the male side is to have sex with the female side; the weapon males use is essentially money (implication: they can buy sex and regard sex as love); everyone regards their partner as a status symbol, i. e. a thing with no opinions or feelings. These attitudes show a fairly severe contempt for the human race, which is why they rather upset me.

Have I got us back to the main topic of this thread? Possibly?

Have I gone on too long? Probably...

Half the time I want a cavegirl to come bonk me over the head and drag me away.

Anyway, anyway, the question itself: okay so obviously you mostly agree that Ms. Canada is silly and prissy and demanding for expecting the English to woo to her standards or national expectations. But by saying that you're accepting the assumption that the standard wooing process does indeed differ from nation to nation, and what I'm curious about is how you think the English one differs from that of other nations (and whether and which differences you think of as positive, negative, or neutral).

Julio: But these women can't be totally averse to spending time with you or they wouldn't have agreed to go out with you. And what happens if the girl does the asking? Does she then pay?

Dave q: not all of people's customs no. But no one is asking her to change her religion, political or philosophical views. Just to adapt slightly and enjoy the country she's now living in, without whining, bitching or employing sweeping and negative generalisations. Strange, now I've described her like that she sounds just like another disgruntled Canadian living in London. Recognise anybody Mr Q?

Secondly:

I DID NOT WRITE BRIDGET JONES SODDING DIARY. I DID NOT. I DID NOT AND I AM NO RELATION AT ALL TO HELEN FI

''Secondly:

I DID NOT WRITE BRIDGET JONES SODDING DIARY. I DID NOT. I DID NOT AND I AM NO RELATION AT ALL TO HELEN FI''

heh. I knew that, I read the 'bridget jones' thread. But really, the paranoia thing...c'mon, that's bridget jones SURELY.

(should be 'Ladies')

Bollocks Pete. I'm really poor at articulating what is so utterly fantastic about this song (apart from being prompted to run all the way to wherever I was going out of pure excitement the first time I listened to the first four lines). But she means exactly your point "*Ladies* it ain't easy being independent *women*", ie being expected and perceived and brought up (or whatever) to be ladylike makes it harder to be independent. I think I have a coherent and convincing argument to explain this but that sentence in no way contains it.

a shy embaressed mumble can make you go weak at the knees

Gosh I'm smooth. Heyyyyy.

Kate Adie - grebt lady

I'm not sure if Anna is overly advocating the shy mumble technique by the way, I know women for whom it is a complete turn-off.

There's hope for me yet...

Wonderful (sarcastically in barackets) (copyright P. G. Wodehouse).

To summarise: MEN - BE LESS CRAP. Thank you.

a reason has just been given to be even more crap. Thank you.

Hi, I was looking for girls wearing pigtails. If you have any pictures, I'll look I won't make fun of anything. Yes, I'm a adult. Thanks, John

So maybe I am not being harsh.

Blimey Julio do you really think that's possible?

Blimey the benchmark is 'raised' once again! Must try harder. Maybe a gymslip fetish could be cultivated.

I must try Emma. This is my new purpose in life...

but is this not akin to romantic feeling from Julio, a la Stan from South Park?
*cue phonograph playing 'i've got a crush on you, sweetie pie'*

NB future googlers - this is a lie.

(Dan Perry, mind out of gutter now young man.)

great...Emma is my english teacher now. you ppl are so bloody clever, you get what I'm thinking and feeling from a punctuation mark.

''but is this not akin to romantic feeling from Julio, a la Stan from South Park? *cue phonograph playing 'i've got a crush on you, sweetie pie'* ''

Dave M you're evil, just pure evil...

Bwahahahahaha! I'd never even think of it...