Old friends who've lost their minds

_CRAZY_
or
*crazy*

a good friend got addicted to coke for a while, I believe. His moods became awful and I worried about him, but he's alright now.

just say no, kids!

bill

so my old friend, she got married too young. and had kids. and now she's asking me what she should do cuz she feels stuck. i mean, i can't say anything.

"yup. you're stuck."

kids are non-returnable, non-refundable

She can terminate the marriage, can't say I recommend that for the kids...

thats what she just posed to me. should i put my happiness before my kids'

i'm like, you know i can't say

Tell her to grow up.

But you can say. "DON'T abandon your kids." It's very rude.

so tricky :/ especially cuz at the time she got married, i was so worried for her. which i've been honest with her about since then. but what am i gonna do tell her to leave her husband? that's just not something anyone does. unless the husband is beating her and it's a lifetime original movie.

she isn't stuck. her kids are stuck. she needs to do what's best for them.

thats what she just posed to me. should i put my happiness before my kids'

i'm like, you know i can't say

-- Surmounter, Friday, August 15, 2008 3:36 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

you should say no.

and tell her there must be a way that she and her kids can both be happy... it just might not be the most obvious/easy choice.

There are other cures for feeling "stuck" than leaving your relationship. it's one of the great myths of society (especially for women) that your relationship is the only thing that can validate you. There are other ways that she can grow and "unstick" herself that have nothing to do with relationships - education, career change, etc. etc.

Though as a general caveat on the whole "for the sake of the kids..." thing... As if kids don't notice and/or suffer when their parent is desperately unhappy! In general, desperately unhappy people don't always make for particularly good parents.

how old are the kids? she's not stuck for the rest of her life but she may have to wait a few years to get unstuck, which really should have been her very first thought upon realising she was pregnant

or, just send 'em to boarding school and divorce hubby

they'll love that

the kids are 2 and 3...

tell her to combine them into 5-year-old... might be less stress to deal with only one

tell her to ask strangers on the internet, most of which are unmarried and have no kids, for advice

but i don't know if i can agree that if you get married, have kids and deeply regret it, that you can't get out of that. it just seems so sad

well, unless she can afford a fulltime nanny she's basically got to suck it up for the next few years at least. suspect she knows this and just needed to let off steam to you

Well, would she consider leaving the kids with their father?

You can get out of being married. You can't get out of having kids.

(Though unfortunately, in practise, men seem really adept at getting out of that latter one.)

yes Laurel, which is kind of scary to me. the idea of being able to do that

surmounter, i earnestly hope that her situation is something like: "i am not feeling personally fulfilled because being a mother is my priority so i can't spend my time & resources on my own personal & professional goals."

if, on the other hand, her situation is more like: "i thought motherhood was going to give my life meaning but now i've got kids and i'm just not feeling it, how can i get out of this" then she's just being horrible and selfish

what if it's just like "i thought i wanted a family, that i was ready for it, but i'm not, and i'm really unhappy"

that can't be horrible and selfish

uh, kinda

uh, no

it's a sad story and this lot aren't very sympathetic

i'm sure that happens ALL THE TIME. it's not wrong to have feelings.

Encourage her to pursue other goals while remaining in her family. I think that's the best you can do. Remind her, or try to get her to think about goals/ambitions she had before starting a family, and working on ways that she can approach them.

uh, depends on what she does about it.

uh, yup. :D

i somehow doubt that leaving her husband & her children is going to do anything for her happiness, honestly!

If it was just her husband that's one thing, she shouldn't drag it out with him and finally leave him when he's 50 just because of the kids; she can leave him and still be there for her babies. But if she's looking to ditch it all and hit the opposite coast and never look back then I think she needs to think again. I'm sympathetic and all, but the kids man...

you know, i don't think it is horrible and selfish at all, it's totally understandable. but it's not a situation she can get out of now!

tell her to take out all of her frustration and anxiety on her kids

(um what a strange thread to revive for this dilemma.)

I have known people who were in this exact same situation, but luckily they had extended family (grandparents in the case I'm thinking of) who could step in and take guardianship of the children while the person sorted out their life. Is this an option for your friend?

and yeah k8 otm...in what ways does she feel unfulfilled? does she want more of a career, more time to pursue her own interests, more time to spend with her husband? those are all doable. if she wants more time to be free & single that probably isn't.

Kate is talking sense here really. If the marriage isn't working and looks like it never will, then staying in it for the sake of the kids will not help the kids in the long run.

If she just wants out and back to her old carefree days then my first post applies. Do you know for sure that this isn't just a temporary wobble?

OR tell her to put pressure on her kids to succeed at the things she thinks she'll never be able to do

(i still think this friend is just blowing off much-needed steam to a non-judgmental friend! i mean raising toddlers must be really hard, depressing work sometimes, and what with all the social pressure to be a 'good mother' there aren't too many opportunities to let out one's frustration)

that's true. but the thing is, she doesn't really like her husband. i think she loves him, but she says they have nothing in common.

i don't know that it's a temporary wobble. she wants to pursue intellectual interests, and you know, find herself (i'm too lazy to be more articulate).

so was it the *second* child that make her realized she wasn't ready to have a family?? really now.

that big variable in this whole equation is her relationship with her husband and how he treats HIS responsibilities as a parent, and whether he's cornered her into being the housewife or whether that's something she wanted

trying...to force...PiL joke.......ahhh so not happening...

Tell her that this is an opportunity for two completely painless abortions.

I don't mean to sound cruel, but she shoulda found herself before she had kids. Unfortunately, she's just 'mommy' now. Hindsight's always 20/20...

i do think it's possible to get divorced and raise happy, healthy kids.

well, she is kind of the primary caregiver. he's in the military.

ugh marriage!

That's the worst possible scenario.

if hes in the military hes probably an awful person who loves to shed blood and physically abuse human beings

wait so you're saying even if mommy is miserable, she should stick it out for the kids?

max you're killin me :D

surmounter, she needs to understand that she's ALWAYS going to be a mother, and that separating herself from her children will certainly make that permanent relationship MORE difficult for everyone.

If miserable people didn't stick it out for their kids, none of us would be here.

Depending on where she's located, suggest she take correspondance courses or Open University in order to expand her intellectual horizons. She can do this while the kids are this young, then go on to university when they're old enough to be in school. Keep doors open.

As to her relationship - marital counselling? (or maybe not. The Military isn't exactly the kind of atmosphere for this sort of thing.)

(eep, look at me being so sensible today.)

Becoming a mother does NOT mean the end of the ability to find oneself. That's one of the sure ways to generate unhappy kids. Yes, she's made her bed, in terms of, she can't unmake the kids. But happier, more fulfilled people *generally* make more happy parents.

my mom kind of left when i was young and i'm sort of weird so i don't now why i'm arguing for divorce here

Sorry - *better* parents. And better parents usually means happier kids.

wow you're like really smart today :)

i mean, if she strikes out on her own, she'll have to cope with the pangs of guilt and accept the fact that her kids will develop abandonment issues, yes?

:( prolly

I'm now saying she should stick it out. She's just got a lot working against her. Having kids when you're young, before you've got a solid, working adult identity doesn't help when you're trying to leave the military culture which is full of young moms just like you.

As to her relationship - marital counselling? (or maybe not. The Military isn't exactly the kind of atmosphere for this sort of thing.)

Right. Because no one in the Military has ever gone to counseling. Like Max said, he probably likes to kill kittens with his bare hands

Seriously, though, why do people get married?

Marriage is an institution. It is a particular thing. You can enter into all manner of long-term, commited relationships and then break up later when shit gets boring or depressing. Or do whatever you want.

Marriage kinda means that you'll slug through feeling stuck or having a bad spot. Marriage means you'll make it work.

I'm not judging your friend. I know very little about her situation. I just think that, in general, people should give a good, long, hard thought about what marriage means. In most situations, I think they folks should do something else.

No, just if her background is so very different, counselling is unlikely to make much of a difference.

Anyway, that's enough out of me, I see the way this is going.

word fluffy

possibly these same ennui-y feelings are what motivated her to marry and have kids w/someone she has nothing in common with? being in a somewhat inescapable situation could maybe be seen as an opportunity to relate to ones own mind free from naive fantasies of external fulfillment.

but uh if she really hates her husband she should totally leave him - never the kids tho

whoa where'd you come from

lol

So many variables here. If she got married and had kids thinking it would fulfill her or complete her or fix something she hadn't fixed already, well....surprise. LUCKILY, though, Kate is 100% right that not everyone feels the same way about motherhood, some people just kind of do it alongside their own lives, AND THAT'S FINE.

So maybe your friend isn't cut out to be the "my life revolves around my children" type, no damage done. Plenty of kids with moms like that turn into reasonable, self-sufficient adults with a minimum of dripping sentiment. But you gotta be SOME kind of mother, whatever kind you're best suited for, once you have the kids.

just imitate Tim Gunn and tell her to "make it work"

She can terminate the marriage, can't say I recommend that for the kids...

-- RabiesAngentleman, Friday, August 15, 2008 10:36 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thats what she just posed to me. should i put my happiness before my kids'

i'm like, you know i can't say

-- Surmounter, Friday, August 15, 2008 10:36 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

as someone who experienced two divorces and one parental death as a kid i cant tell you how strongly I believe it is far far FAR better for kids to have happy parents than unhappy parents living in the same house.

I believe it is far far FAR better for kids to have happy parents than unhappy parents living in the same house.

i agree. but some people just can't be happy. ;_;

they arent trying hard enough and they owe it to their kids not to be miserable shits

some people can try and try and try but brain chemistry is a weird thing.

this is why i might never have kids -- i'm a little afraid of my brain. that and i'm a homo, which is tricky too.

xp sure. i still say parents unhappily married is more damaging than parents happily divorced.

yeah, i agreed with that part then kind went off on a tangent.

If you really want to help her, then help her unpack "stuck". That could indicate anything from unfulfilled sexual needs to stunted career aspirations to an unhappy "family" experience. Each of those issues may have a distinct solution.

buy her a gun

as a present--itll make her feel better

just imitate Tim Gunn and tell her to "make it work"

-- elmo argonaut, Friday, August 15, 2008 12:26 PM (57 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

haha this ^^^

make sure you do the voice, otherwise she might not get it and think youre insensitive

Project Unhappy Marriage

Tim Gunn's Project Runaway

I'm out.

that was supposed to be a joke but it's not working. max on the funny money.

thats what she just posed to me. should i put my happiness before my kids'

this is such a bullshit poor-me, woe-is-me victim mentality formulation.

haha, honestly i'm only kind of bullshitting but "make it work" really applies to this situation! you can't go back to the start and do it all over, that's not an option. you have to assess the situation in terms of your priorities and what your 'vision' is of the outcome, taking into account what can be changed, what shouldn't be changed, and what can't be changed. ultimately, you're responsible for the whole mess so you better make some decisions that you're happy with or can at least justify!

elmo, you are categorically otm on this thread.

and sur, if your friend is any kind of decent human being at all, the well-being of her children should contribute directly and impactfully to her own sense of fulfillment.

the question 'me or my kids' usually seems to exist when people are asking permission/validation for unseemly, unparental, and largely inappropriate behavior that is selfish.

most importantly, she has to HAVE a clear vision of what she wants. Escaping the current situation isn't going to be her solution to being unhappy. She knows that what she has now isn't what she wants. well, what does she want?

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x18/gr8080/188471397_898178.gif

thats what she just posed to me. should i put my happiness before my kids'

this is such a bullshit poor-me, woe-is-me victim mentality formulation.

-- remy bean, Friday, August 15, 2008 1:45 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this seems a bit harsh. but i don't know, i've never had kids. but i was jarred by the way she put it to me. something along the lines of if i got divorced, i'd be ok with letting him have the kids....

:/

it may be harsh -- but if there is an either/or relationship between one's own happiness and the happiness of one's children, there are deep psychological issues at hand.

maybe the kids are brats remy

or just plain ugly

i think she's questioning the extent to which she should value her personal happiness -- i think it's easy to put it as an either/or cuz that's how the question is commonly phrased. but it's not that simple for her. but i imagine this is a very common question for people in relationships and families.

i don't think i'll ever feel stuck.

It is a very common question for people in relationships and families, and more than likely she's stating it in the black and white of leave/stay because the way it actually is is so complex. Therefore, advice to get her to talk more is probably going to help, and telling her she's got psychological issues if she's even considering leaving her kids is very unlikely to.

which, for the record, nobody advocated doing.

this is really good: Pema Chödrön on Shenpa

True, apologies remy. I was thinking of

if there is an either/or relationship between one's own happiness and the happiness of one's children, there are deep psychological issues at hand.

I guess I'm just saying that it very rarely is such an either/or.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR0itEEbydo

(^^^funky rhodes playing on that track)

okay, so understand i'm not trying to prescribe what this woman SHOULD do -- many women as a fact just aren't nurturing people, and i'm not saying that "being a mother" should define her life totally (Laurel OTM on this point) -- but "he can have the kids" just kinda sounds like she's not willing to own the responsibility that is hers (though not hers alone).

i know it kind of freaked me out. i don't know, it was an online conversation and maybe... i don't know

Would her husband be happy to have custody of the children if she were to offer it to him? I know it seems shocking to you that this woman could surrender custody, but if it's in the children's best interest, then why not?

so yeah, i still think she is being selfish in a way that is kinda horrible

It seems odd to me to get defensive about people judging your friend when you brought up this situation on a thread title "Old friends who've lost their minds" and admitted that you can't be bothered to explain the details of the situation so all that people have to go on is an unflattering broad-brush characterization.

I think the only thing you can do here is encourage her to talk to a professional counselor or psychologist.

i don't know what her husband would do. i appreciate that perspective, ailsa. elmo you're buggin! she's being horribly selfish because she's thinking about herself? i don't think it's easy being a wife and mother, and the idea that women shouldn't think about what they want in the context of their families is horrible.

is the husband in the country?

he is curiously absent from this discussion.

It seems odd to me to get defensive about people judging your friend when you brought up this situation on a thread title "Old friends who've lost their minds" and admitted that you can't be bothered to explain the details of the situation so all that people have to go on is an unflattering broad-brush characterization.

I think the only thing you can do here is encourage her to talk to a professional counselor or psychologist.

-- HI DERE, Friday, August 15, 2008 2:28 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

uh, i'm just having a conversation, however odd you may find it.

the husband is indeed in the country.

wow i didnt pick up the wanting to leave the kids with him part. i thought this was just a marriage on the rocks situation. she must be REALLY unhappy. maybe she feels like she missed out on a huge part of life. you should just let her know that 20s single childless life is all getting drunk and high and watching bad bands and sleeping with your friends boyfriends and in the end youre really glad its over. its an easy skip really.

it's almost painful to think about, and i'm still living it! except i saw good bands last night.

if she's thinking of herself to the detriment of her responsibilities as a parent, then yes! being a parent, being a spouse -- these are long term relationships, and of course they take work! if she didn't expect that, then maybe that goes to explain how she's arrived at her current dilemma. xpost

well at this point it's all just thought, and no detriment. so calmy d :D

if she's a totally incompetent parent and her husband is great with kids, then maybe they should stay with him! i dunno

and anyway i don't believe thinking about anything is horrible.

she's being horribly selfish because she's thinking about herself?

considering dumping dependent children because you are unhappy in a nonspecific and existential way is, by definition, horribly selfish.

thinking about giving up custody of your kids, to a father who may be more capable of taking care of them, is not horribly selfish. sorry.

to a father who may be more capable of taking care of them

^^ this was never mentioned!

it was never mentioned that he would be a bad parent, either!

like i said, if she can't remember to change the kids diapers or leaves them locked in the car while she plays keno at the bar, this is an entirely different matter.

it just seems ridiculous to me that a woman can't have thoughts like this without being condemned.

but is a divorced military man really going to be able to care for two very young children??

i mean, i wouldn't want anyone to rummage through the thoughts that go through my head. but i don't act on all of them.

no elmo, i don't think so. in that sense, if she were to act along those lines, i might entertain the word horrible. might.

sur, i'd condemn just as strongly a father who had the same thoughts, this ain't about that.

right but why are you condemning thoughts at all?

(Dave and Kevin stand side-by-side in front of a suburban house, with a young boy next to Kevin. We see the scene through a television camera, as a press conference takes place.)

Dave: We've called this press conference today to announce publicly what is already a growing rumor in the community - that we are disappointed both in our child and in the experience of parenting. Now, we feel a certain sense of responsibility in that when our baby was born, we were often heard to encourage other couples to have children, describing it as, and I quote, "the most incredible experience in the world." We would now like to retract that statement, and for all those who have only recently been stirred to conceive, we offer a word of advice - don't.

Scott: Are you gonna get rid of the child?

Dave: No, no, of course not. We're just gonna go one with our lives, but openly and honestly. Thank you.

[Dave, Kevin, and the boy turn and go into the house. As they do, the reporters yell questions and take pictures, and Dave and Kevin mutter replies back.]

Scott: Tommy! A little smile there, Tommy?

Dave: C'mon, Tommy.

Kevin: No more photos, please.

Scott: Tommy! Can you smile still, Tommy? Do they treat you well?

Dave: Treating him very well.

Scott: Just let me just see the kid, just one little picture.

Kevin: You've had enough.

(Dave, Kevin, and the boy go into the house, closing the storm door behind them. Scott follows them up the steps and squats, peering through the door into the house.)

Scott: Hey c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, hey Tommy? Whoa, what's that, that's just a black and white TV in there! Hey Tommy!

but is a divorced military man really going to be able to care for two very young children??

day care?

Considering how one doesn't like one's husband and would willingly walk away and surrender custody of one's kids isn't just "thinking" about something. It's regretting an entire lifestyle that isn't terribly easy to walk away from. It can't NOT be having an impact on her life, especially if her husband is away and she has sole care at the moment.

xposts

i don't mean to keep being tough-nails about this -- but when you remember what she is actually (according to you) thinking of doing, it is hard to summon a lot of sympathy for her plight.

and she is not just 'giving up her kids' to a better parent. she is removing herself as one of the bedrocks of their developmental experience: does she think this will not have repercussions? has it occurred to her how much damage and confusion a sudden removal of affection and motherhood will have on their lives?

i am not advocating she stays in a loveless marriage, but i wholly in support of her honoring her responsibility to the children she has given birth to, raised so far, become primary caretaker too, etc., etc. this is basic life responsibility stuff 101: if you have kids, take care of them. you don't just bail on kids because you are unhappy.

caveat: if fear you will injure your niños in some gross and unrecoverable fashion, you better run for the fucking hills.

surmounter, didn't you ASK everyone for their opinions?

http://www.truemomconfessions.com/

i did -- am i not allowed to have my own?

Also, I'm pretty there are divorced dads with sole custody of children all over the world who manage just fine. If he's got the best interests of his children at heart (and I hope he does, because from what you've said, I'm not sure she does), he'll find a way.

Obviously I am pretty, but I am also pretty sure :-)

i can ask for opinions and discuss where i stand on the issue as well.

right but why are you condemning thoughts at all?

Uh, I think there are plenty of things a person can think that most of us would be willing to condemn. That's not thought-policing, it's just saying "If you're thinking that, you suck, so stop sucking."

Right now I am thinking "Why is anyone bothering to engage with this seriously when the resultant conversation makes it clear it was only posted as a piece of juicy gossip everyone was supposed to gasp over then forget?" I'm certain, Sur, that you would find that assholish.

http://buzznet-00.vo.llnwd.net/media/jj1/2008/01/simpson-gasp/jessica-simpson-gasp-03.jpg

if you don't want to engage, don't! i posted it to see how people would react, and i'd like to be able to argue points if i want to.

also, i'm of the belief that thoughts are OK, as long as your behavior is appropriate.

yeah, sur, if she's coming to you for advice -- and she's probably has gone to others for the same advice -- then it's more than an idle thought. i don't know if it's even advice she's looking for -- maybe sympathy, maybe permission from her friends & family that it is okay if she goes through with it. who knows?

Yes, but other people aren't of that opinion, so give them credit for answering your question/adding to your discussion/offering personal insight, even if they don't agree with you. Or are we all supposed to go "surmounter OTM" all the way through without adding anything of our own unless it agrees with your viewpoint? None of us know your friend, it's evolving into a more generalised discussion in absence of actual knowledge of the whole situation.

xpost

i understand how hard it is to tell a parent that they're being a shitty parent and maybe she's hoping no one will call her out for being selfish even though (i think) she is.

lol ailsa i actually typed out "thanks ailsa, i appreciate that perspective" before. i do appreciate the thoughts! geez. really funny to think i can't ask a question and not argue certain points! y'all are odd.

w/o details this is kind of a rorschach test, but i don't want anymore details.

it's possible to feel stuck in life and sick of yourself and what you've done or not done, without any marriage or kids issues to pin it on. the marriage and the kids might be the proximate but not ultimate causes of feeling this way.

it's possible for people to marry young and have two kids without feeling trapped. the situtation is not a priori a form of imprisonment, people life this way and are happy doing so. so if she feels terribly unhappy it's possible something specifically wrong is going on with her marriage. there may be something specifically wrong with her kids, too, but, being kids, that's not their fault, even if it is draining for the parent.

i don't know why people bother talking about this meta bullshit. it was actually an interesting argument/conversation/whatever before people started saying things like "why did you ask a question and then not agree with the answers"

BS.

sur i'm totally giving you my opinion without the meta (except this post)

absolutely, and you've listened to mine, and i really appreciate that.

aww that's sweet

you guys should go make out in the idiot thread repository

thinking about giving up custody of your kids, to a father who may be more capable of taking care of them, is not horribly selfish. sorry.

Unless there's more to the story, nothing you've told us gives any indication that she isn't "capable of taking care of" her kids. It sounds like she just doesn't want to -- that she finds it unfulfilling -- which is something totally different.

Maybe S starting this thread was about how to talk through something like this with someone, and not only about whether they'd be right or wrong to do what she's considering? Or maybe not.

surmounter, I know you appreciated my perspective, but you're not granting that appreciation to others who are perceived as being critical of your friend (though, as I suggested, this may be veering into general advice now without any real knowledge of specifics).

does she think this will not have repercussions? has it occurred to her how much damage and confusion a sudden removal of affection and motherhood will have on their lives?

Maybe she has, though, and that's exactly why she needs to talk the feelings through with someone? Guess it's hard to tell from an online conversation whether that's how it is or not.

ailsa, Sur isn't mad at you; he's mad at me.

Yes, but I'm cross with him for it!

not just you, but the general dismission of viewpoints that might tend towards "yes she is being selfish".

to be honest, if a friend of mine had a similar situation, i would probably still think she is being horrible and selfish but i would probably not tell her that directly

maybe something like "YOU DO RIGHT BY YOUR KIDS, BITCH, OR YOU DEAD TO ME" but toned down

Amazingly enough, I think Kate's first answer made the most sense to me: i.e., if someone comes to you with this situation, you can encourage them to try getting un-stuck by changing lots of things in their life and relationship, and leaving divorce as a last resort if nothing else can help.

(I'm also kind of surprised that more people aren't slightly sympathetic to her, especially given there are no real details provided; maybe she's "selfish," but maybe she's one of many, many people who wind up in marriages that are stifling and psychologically unhealthy for them. Lots of those people divorce in ways that are rough but not exactly life-ruining for their children, though obviously that option should come after most others have already been tried and exhausted.)

i was very sympathetic to her! maybe it was a little oblique, but it seems to me based on the information that something is very wrong here. people aren't miserable unless there's a reason to be miserable, and the mere fact of being married and having kids is not, in itself, a reason to be miserable.

I think there is a slight and justified tendency on the internet to suspect that people are selfish entitled whiners, rather than suspecting that they might have genuine and significant challenges in their lives.

i don't have faith in a lot of people's ability to raise children

which is part of why i don't think i want 'em

whatever, you'd be a great dad.

i think people are being unsympathetic based on the information we have--one of the first posts surmounter said was a quote from the woman: "should I put my happiness before my kids."

that, and the fact that for the continuation of the human race we are wired to be more sympathetic to dependent children than the tomfoolery of their parents.

Mr. Que, I have no idea whether this is true of the person in question, but I could very easily see someone saying that "put my happiness before my kids" thing in a heavy-hearted way that is actually all about caring for the children -- i.e., getting to a point of serious misery and yet still feeling so obligated to your children that you'd feel selfish for doing anything about it. There are people in the world who think that way even as their husbands are abusing them. (And there are people in the world who'd probably think of serving KFC instead of a home-cooked meal as "putting my happiness before my kids.")

In other words, when weighing those things, it is not uncommon for people to write off serious, significant needs as just "my happiness," because they feel selfish putting anything up against what's best for children. (Does that make sense?)

very true. everyone reads "my happiness" in a different light, it can stand for millions of different things. and to be honest to the other side of this, it's sometimes better for the children when the parent decides to leave--if the parent is self aware enough to realize that he/she would be doing more harm than good to the kids

you can't prioritize "happiness" unless you know what makes you "happy" however you define that

and personally i don't think anyone is simply entitled to happiness, i mean we all have the right to pursue it but that don't mean it's coming your way! sorry!

agreed, i totally agree with that. some people are never going to be happy.

they feel selfish putting anything up against what's best for children

that is just another way of positing the same my happiness/their happiness dichotomy.

and it is a false one: in reality, what is best for the children also includes a clean bill of mental health on behalf of the parents/caretakers. 'my happiness' includes 'their happines' and 'their happiness' includes 'my happiness'

it is likely sur's friend cannot see beyond this pursuit of some vague happiness, which she suggests cannot be fulfilled as long as she stays with her children. in that case, however, she needs to be encouraged to recognize that her self-image as a walk-away mom will almost undoubtedly be severely compromised.

clap your hands

xp

also: in a very real way, providing stability and development of two young children is more important than a soverign adult's happiness grail-quest.

do you believe that, internet dude

wholeheartedly. 2 > 1. especially if said sovereign adult is parent to the child.

look, Emma Bovary and Anna Karenina didn't find any fulfillment in married life either but chasing their happiness led to some shitty decisions and suicide!

so... don't be like Emma Bovary!

emma bovary's holy-grail quest was to embody the color green or some shit

shitty decisions AND suicide!

e, remember in high school when jen's AIM name was MBovary? I thought she intended it to signify 'M.B. Ovary', and was too intimidated to ask why.

I mean if you are going to talk about the fate of emma bovary being analogous to some real life person's real life then you may want to have them consider how their life mirrors maggot brain

I'm all for that btw

^ it was JB Ovary actually. xpost

And I was confused too!

I'm certainly sympathetic to her situation. She IS stuck, because she is in this situation and doesn't seem to have the ability to work through it.

How old is this person?

it is likely sur's friend cannot see beyond this pursuit of some vague happiness, which she suggests cannot be fulfilled as long as she stays with her children.

This is precisely why I thought Kate's advice was the best of it all: it moves away from the issue of the family and suggests that she make other changes to make herself happy, as an individual.

There are lots of people who start families young, chafe under the everyday work and responsibility of it, and give up too easily; that's a problem. there are also lots of people who get stuck in family situations that are legitimately unhealthy for them; that's a problem too. We have no way of knowing where on that spectrum this person is, and I don't even think Surmounter, who knows her, is in any position to start telling her which she is. Hence Kate's advice being really, really good: it's a way of prompting this person become as happy and fulfilled as she can personally be before having to look at the sad possibility that she absolutely can't work as part of this family.

i am going to suggesting that the clinical psychologists i know begin implementing a maggot-brain personality run-down

What bothers me most, actually, is that she says she doesn't really like her husband, it doesn't seem a very good starting point for reparation. Can't they discuss their differences if, as you say, she does still love him? I think getting them talking about this is way more helpful to repairing her feeling of being trapped than her getting validation or otherwise of her "oh noes, I am actually trapped" statement from people outside the immediate situation. Maybe she isn't? Can't he change career? Be home more? Isn't there some common ground (other than, you know, having a family together) that they can work on?

People are thrust into negative situations all the time, but it's kind of painful when you realize you put yourself there by thinking you were ready for serious life decisions and then have second thoughts.

How about just doing the best you can and realizing that there are good days and bad days? It's not like anybody in their family has a real crisis yet, just a nagging thought that things could somehow be better.

I'm not going to nabisco otm because it's mostly obvious shit (the "give up too easy" versus "genuinely unhealthy situation" dichotomy that half the people on the tl;dr segment of the thread somehow missed) but really, the landscape of your life will change, sometimes with long-term changes like being married, having a kid, or even one that's not nearly that positive. A good portion of life is dealing with shit like that, I kind of think that's what being an adult is about: knowing when to just deal with shit and when to ask for help.

He'll get his re-enlistment bonus and they'll buy a jetski and everything will turn out fine.

http://www.petsrusdallas.com/Reservations/Jet_ski_dogs_s.jpg

someone has put those dogs' happiness before their own.

she's 25 (young, right?)

HI DERE, i'm not mad at you. ailsa, i didn't intend to dismiss other opinions -- i just feel strongly that any person should be able to think things through, no matter how disturbing the thoughts may be.

i agree that kate's advice was sound -- and yes i think you're right, that discussion on her part is essential.

lol @ this not being its own thread

kate's advice is wise, and Dan P. is OTM about her looking for some professional help.

If miserable people didn't stick it out for their kids, none of us would be here.

-- Kerm, Friday, August 15, 2008 4:11 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Link

Wicked OTm in so rad & bittersweet a way.

This has nothing to do with Surmonter's friend but is related to the thread title: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IubygCvXB_Y

Tootie's hair is a thing of wonder

I'M GOING!

o
m
g

that acting!

HAAAAAA her face is insane

Blair looks kinda fat

Just from an extremely practical viewpoint, offering to babysit her kids while she goes to a parenting support group would probably be really helpful. And supportive.

aww i would but she lives far away. we used to hang out all the time nad pretend like we were a married couple, when we were in school. it was fun. now we don't do that, but i still love her.

Well, still - I think approaching it from a "what can I do" stance, in practical terms, is a good step.

You're not going to call her and breathlessly say "ILX says you should get counseling!"

What can you do? Do you know someone who could provide child care?
Ask her about getting child care, and offer to pay for it, so she can get a few hours to get the support she needs. A decent babysitter is like $8-$10 an hour, I think.
I think people are getting annoyed with the theoretical aspect, in terms of this thread.

I feel annoyed, I guess, because it seems like a situation that needs and deserves action. I have read ALMOST this entire thread. I feel sort of battered by it - she should, she did, if she did, did she - it makes me feel a bit queasy.

She needs help, and help is available. Help her get it. That is your task and your promise.

You love her - give us a good ending to this story.

I believe it is far far FAR better for kids to have happy parents than unhappy parents living in the same house.

-- sunny successor, Friday, August 15, 2008 11:59 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark Link

this is otm. some of you are being really harsh on this woman, also.

no shit: she confessed a desire to run off on her kids

You don't really know anything about her. Neither do I.

yah srsly a desire to escape yr life comes included w/it

Fantasying about running away from your life = not so weird
Telling your friend about on AIM = kind of weird
Going to strangers on the internet for advice on how to deal with it = weirder yet (sorry Surmounter)

^^^this weirdness scale = weirdest of all

judge weirdness as you will, i was just talkin :D

(i though that's what people did on here, talk about weird shit)

born instigator^

Weird or not weird isn't the point. I mean, it's a valid point, but it shouldn't be THE point.

I'm wandering in quite late to the whole debate, but all I can see is lots of people saying she did, she was, she might have, what if she -

and we can all speculate about her for another twenty four hours, basing our opinions and advice on our own personal experiences. Which means "she" - whoever she is - is now judged through a hundred different lenses.

There has to be a practical way to provide "her" with help. She's so iconic now I'm not sure if I should capitalize HER.
Maybe this vast discussion is a way for everyone to articulate their feelings about a situation LIKE this.
But I'm working on the premise that this is a real live person; and I think she deserves help in a very fundamental way. Support. Love.

you seem like a good friend, Surmounter.

So my point is that

thx. i am a good friend. having drinx on mon, will update.

elmo and remy so OTM on this thread.

but the thing is, she doesn't really like her husband. i think she loves him, but she says they have nothing in common.

If this was discussed, then I missed it. Marriage has so little to do with having things "in common." Marriage isn't a Facebook match-up. If the man is unsympathetic to the things shelikes to do, then it's a different story.

omg I am so glad marriage is nothing like Facebook.

Marriage has so little to do with having things "in common."

what

so glad it's not in my plans then.

i am pretty sure he means "in common" like similar books, movies, music, art, etc, which has v. v. little do to w. long-term companionship -- and is probably how he (and i) read your initial post.

oh. those things actually have a lot to do with my long-term companionship.

i would be hard-pressed to spend my life with someone who didn't enjoy taking part in the things i like.

that always strikes me as a strange concept: i could give two shits what my spouse listens to / watches / reads as long as it isn't abysmally shitty or weird. i get sorta icked out by people who plan their friendships/hookups primarily around these things -- it seems shallow beyond shallow. personality definition by aesthetic sensibility.

like those couples walking down the street holding hands and wearing what are basically m/f variant of the same outfit, listening to what i imagine are 60% similar ipods and smoking matching cigarettes

it's not shallow to desire common interests in your relationships. indeed, it seems quite natural for most people i know.

it's all relative. you want a certain amount of difference to keep things interesting, but common ground is always good.

i didn't say you didn't want commonality surmounter. i said it is weird for people to plan their friendships/hookups primarily around aesthetic baloney is shallow. as in 'we both like rilo kiley and jim jarmusch, let's go fuck but keep our two-tone socks on for kicks'

personality definition by aesthetic sensibility.

also, liking certain art or music isn't just aesthetic sensibility. it has a lot to do with you are on a deeper level.

i do not agree with that

so all your interests are purely shallow manifestations of nothing in particular? they don't speak to who you are and have been in the past?

http://sandbox.thehold.net/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=77&threadid=479#unread

'misleading or outdated potential boo signifiers'

it seems ridiculous to posit that the music i like doesn't reflect on me in a meaningful. or the paintings i like. or the movies.

the movies i like do not say much about me on a deep level. sure, they might suggest i am a foreign-film sap who likes slow-moving things and appreciates tender moments of family unity, but also balletic action as long as it is not terribly graphic.

but i am pretty sure that is all they mean.

i am a foreign-film sap who likes slow-moving things and appreciates tender moments of family unity

and you don't think this says a lot about you?

cuz i feel like i just learned something :D

WHAT is the significance of my deep-seated love of peanut butter & banana sandwiches? Who does this make me?

i am pretty sure he means "in common" like similar books, movies, music, art, etc, which has v. v. little do to w. long-term companionship -- and is probably how he (and i) read your initial post.

Yup.

a girl who was brought up right!

not on any significant level. i mean, it definitely wouldn't stop me from dating somebody whose favorite movie was escape from new york.

xxxp

oh man, i would date the hell out of such one girl

i think things like that are very significant. we are what we love.

Surm, of course it would be nice if my friends shared my love for Jean Renoir, the Go-Betweens, Dolly Parton, and Henry James' later novels, but none do, and the guys I do even less.

What we share is a sensibility: a similar way of regarding the world. This is quite enough.

*the guys I date

if i didn't love the same things as my partner, i would be really sad.

don't get old, sur

what?

as in, when we get older we're going to love completely different things and be sad? i don't plan on it.

the guys I do

shit, maybe I'm so used to being different from the people around me that I cringe when I see couples who share similar interests.

it just seems strange to denounce a dissatisfaction with a relationship that affords you no common ground.

What I mean is: as your tastes evolve with age, it is very unlikely they will evolve in exactly the same way. See: every parental argument about how to redecorate the basement.

it just seems strange to denounce a dissatisfaction with a relationship that affords you no common ground.

-- Surmounter, Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:22 AM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

nobody said this! nobody said 'no common ground'

So, Surm, your boyfriend loves Kristen Hersh as much as you, and also has no straight friends?

it is different for gay men though.

i said it! i said they don't have anything in common, this couple. it seems strange to dub that complaint insignificant.

like i said alfred, it's all relative. he doesn't love kristin, but he loves kim deal, and mariah carey. and he doesn't have many straight guys as friends.

PB & banana sandwiches will bring them together. I think you just gotta go over & whip up a mess of sandwiches. They're pretty easy to make.

What we share is a sensibility: a similar way of regarding the world. This is quite enough.

it's weird to me that a shared sensibility of this kind doesn't ultimately lead to shared aesthetic taste, though.

:D

i guess i take it for granted that we enjoy a lot of the same things. i suppose people don't necessarily look for that in their relationships, but i always have.

but it does lead to a mutual (if occasionally grudging) respect for the other person's tastes.

but yeah ugh i can't stand ryan's dance music.

it's weird to me that a shared sensibility of this kind doesn't ultimately lead to shared aesthetic taste, though.

"Ultimately" is the word with which I'll quibble here.

but it does lead to a mutual (if occasionally grudging) respect for the other person's tastes.

remy, you're on the nose today.

yeah but if too much of the relationship is built on grudging respect, i would be kind of upset.

Haha -- I want to feel as if, at some level, we look down our noses at each other while still being in love.

welcome to my little world of hate-fucking

i dont see why its so... immature for ramzi to imagine that sharing a certain kind of taste is an important part of a relationship (if not a prerequisite)... there are a lot of people for whom a certain kind of relationship with art is pretty important--i.e. a relationship with art such that the art they love does say something about them, or really, is an important part of how they form their notions of self. 1-to-1 cultural taste matchup isnt necessary by any means but it seems like you guys are pulling this too far in the other direction.

otm

^this

To me, any friendship or love affair requires "a certain kind of relationship with art"; that's partly what I meant by sharing a sensibility. What he likes, though, is up to him.

there are a lot of people for whom a certain kind of relationship with art is pretty important--i.e. a relationship with art such that the art they love does say something about them, or really, is an important part of how they form their notions of self.

yes

thought you'd jump in IKR :D

ok al i guess i see what youre saying, but i think youre going sort of a roundabout way of saying it

i don't think either of us have disagreed with that, max.

you disagreed insofar as your statement that loving certain art doesn't mean very much about you

i mean to me if someone tells me about their relationship "we have nothing in common" i usually dont assume that person means "we dont like the same movies"--i imagine it means "we differ widely in how we think about everything"

xp yah you did remy, thats what bothered me, the idea that the art you love says nothing about who you are (or more accurately, about how you envision yourself to be)

i mean to me if someone tells me about their relationship "we have nothing in common" i usually dont assume that person means "we dont like the same movies"--i imagine it means "we differ widely in how we think about everything"

also this

i also think its sort of troubling to separate out cultural consumption/aesthetic taste from 'world-sensibility,' to me (and a lot of people!) those are part and parcel of personality/self/ego or whatever and basically inextricable from one another

mmmmmhmm

Can't you see this is a LAND OF CONFUSION?

what'd she marry him for?

ack. well, he's a good man, and she was always wed to the air force in terms of her interests. i think it was romantic.

i also think its sort of troubling to separate out cultural consumption/aesthetic taste from 'world-sensibility,' to me (and a lot of people!) those are part and parcel of personality/self/ego or whatever and basically inextricable from one another

I think this is true for the sorts of folks who'd be happy on ILX, and maybe it's true for folks in their teens and 20s, but I think it's less true for others. Your other responsibilities, in particular children but also careers, become increasingly determinative of who you are. I haven't been following this thread very much, but I gather the main subject is a person with children.

you disagreed insofar as your statement that loving certain art doesn't mean very much about you

well, if someone said, "Alfred appreciates good art" after being told that I like Jean Renoir and Henry James, I wouldn't disagree; if someone said "Liking Renoir and James makes Alfred more sensitive to the needs of others," I'd snigger. I'd like to think that art has an ennobling effect on people, but it's a stretch. Taste only says SO MUCH about a person.

you're taking it as a claim to superiority though, when it's not -- the fact that i like the movie Shallow Hal doesn't ennoble me, but it gives you an idea of my personality.

in other words, it's natural to offer descriptions of oneself in terms of preferences and interests, not in a vein of one-upmanship, but as a gage of character.

surmounter gets what i mean

I don't think "he's the type of person who likes 'Shallow Hal'" is particularly meaningful unless you are trading in stereotypes.

I think this is true for the sorts of folks who'd be happy on ILX, and maybe it's true for folks in their teens and 20s, but I think it's less true for others. Your other responsibilities, in particular children but also careers, become increasingly determinative of who you are. I haven't been following this thread very much, but I gather the main subject is a person with children.

-- Euler, Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:13 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

except that im not saying that your aesthetic taste is the sole determinator of your self (and im not sure that 'determinate' is the right sort of phrase to use here when i tend to view the relationship between self and taste as more open-ended and fluid than simply one acting on and determining the other), just that its an important component of the process of that "determination." im sure that some people weight aesthetic concerns relatively less than things like family, career, etc. (and this kind of weighting process is itself an important part of how you define yourself!), but really all im saying--and all ive meant to say--is that claiming that a) aesthetic taste has little or nothing to do with self-formation/personality and b) imagining that it does, and that questions of taste can be important components of relationships is, well, suspect.

uh ignore b) there i dont have any clue what i was trying to say

On the topic of shared interests; my wife and I don't like a lot of same things (we don't have the same taste in music for the most part, literature, film, etc.). But we both like books. And we both like music. And we both like sharing the things we like with each other. And that's the only really important part.

(And we got married very young - I was 22. And we were smart enough not to rush and have kids.)

(as well as lots of sodas)

Just because the relationship between a person's tastes and their personality isn't simplistic doesn't mean it isn't real, or significant. ILX is so perpetually up in arms about being reductive, but refusing to accept the idea that that relationship even exists seems to me every bit as foolish, if not more so.

What resonates with a person tells you a hell of a lot about them, whether or not that information can be easily summarized or pigeonholed, and I think it's totally relevant when it comes to dating.

(Of course, the big variable here is whether you're turned on by similarity or difference, which -- generalization alert -- I think is at least somewhat related to the issue of whether you value continuity with your childhood and past, or whether you want to escape from it.)

Having said that, I don't think common interests are as important as compatible interests. I don't want to spend time enduring things I think are stupid -- movies, music, activities, events, whatever -- and I don't want my partner to feel that way, either. Anyone who thinks that's excessive is probably imagining what it would be like to be rejected for their own interests ("Anyone who'd think less of me for loving Britney Spears is worthless!"), rather than imagining what it would be like to date, say, a hardcore Ayn Rand fan, or someone who wanted to listen to square dance music 24/7.

Besides, logistically it's just so much easier when you have a big fund of things that you both enjoy. Part of getting to know someone is introducing them to things that are new to them and old friends to you, and if you're basically on the same wavelength, many of those things will resonate with them, too.

(Of course, the big variable here is whether you're turned on by similarity or difference, which -- generalization alert -- I think is at least somewhat related to the issue of whether you value continuity with your childhood and past, or whether you want to escape from it.)

...which, getting back to the topic of the thread, makes me wonder about this woman's past, and why she married this guy, and whether or not she saw him as a way of "escaping" and is now looking for another escape.

wow yea not so wrong there

the fact that i like the movie Shallow Hal doesn't ennoble me, but it gives you an idea of my personality.

It only makes me say:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

My dad had me watch that movie to "build my confidence." Twice. Nothing about this makes any sense. Especially the movie itself.

what! this is highly suspect dad behavior

I no longer even know what this thread is about. (Not that I ever did.)

wow, abbott! your dad has lost his mind!

Christ, I followed this thread for a hundred or so posts, then scrolled to the end because I'm off to the pub in a minute, the Shallow Hal thing strikes me as one of the more impressive digressions of recent years. 8/10

There's a lot of good sense talked on here also. Fwiw I'm married, I have a son. He's dependent on me, it was my choice to father him, to not be there would be unconscionable. However, Surmounter's position that these thoughts should be thought through without criticism is, to my mind, a correct one. It's not awful to have these thoughts, it would be, perhaps, to act on them.

Yeah, it is okay to be a human and have thoughts. But a lot, not to act on. Which is why it is nice to have a therapist.

You can tell them all your ridic, foolish desires, and then you realize how stupid they sound! But you don't have to worry anyone you know. And Dial-A-Prayer is just a recording, so that doesn't work as a faux-therapist.

I like to shout at a wall, myself.

Those are for staring at. Thank god for walls! Thank god for everything abt them.

I LOVE U WALLS, NOT MATTER WHAT ROGER WATERS SEZ

WALLS CAN HUG BUT THEY NEED ARMS

walls do not determine your personality

YES THEY DO IT IS DISINGENUOUS TO SAY OTHERWISE AND NOT AT ALL SHALLOW/NAIVE

what do i know–? (i am a particleboard lover)

DO NOT HURT THE FEELINGS OF WALL

EMBRACE CAPSLOCK

ALSO WALL

seriously, what did wall do to you other than be there for you

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/64/213630774_5a785eb68c.jpg?v=0

I AM WALL
AND SUCH WALL THAT I MIGHT HAVE THINK
IN IT A CRANNY/HOL ORCHINK
THRU WHICH THEE LOVERS PYRAMUS & THISBY
ARE MADE TO WHISPER

often quite discreetly?

HI DERE WALL PROTOCETS YOU FROM ELEMENTS

EVEN ARGON

A wall won't protect you from anything when the Hadron Supercollider kills us all!

HARD ON SUPERCOLLIDE HER

Don't make me start going on about Dr. Cox again!

WATCH OUT FOR 2012 K8

AND I DON'T MEAN NU-RAVE OILYMPICS

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=88491021&albumID=289927&imageID=26430285

I meant...

http://a90.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/64/l_3891dd75c1ecb28f2c68440b517be259.gif

THAT IS PRETTY MUCH PERFECT

wtf

get into it, elmo!

oh hell no

ELMO GET FUCKING INTO IT NOW

I ASKED NICELY ONCE

I WILL COUNT TO THREE HERE

ONE

I do believe Abbot and I have lost our minds. So the thread is finally back on topic. Hurrah!

can i get into it... somewhere else?

cheers!

GET INTO IT

(I love that animation so much, ZS! I can never thank you enough.)

TWO

i don't understand what i am supposed to get into

i am not getting into that van

hey, do you guys know that song by red house painters called "michael"? it's kind of what i gather that this thread's all about (confession: TOO LONG; DIDN'T READ). anyhow, i just called the "michael" in my life. beautiful person. he never "lost his mind", but he went through some heavy shit. use your imagination. suffice it to say that there's no way that i would have so many of the good qualities inside of me that i do now if i had never encountered him. the man is a sweet soul.

i will report back when i hear from him.

get into it pick one

a) the van
b) the groove
c) hipster badminton
d) drunken 15 minute animations

Just get into it, Elmo. You don't want to know what happens when Abbott hits THREE.

(by the way, the threat of THREE is what first got me into it too)

oh yeah, the groove!

okay, i can get into the groove

phew.

Haha Dell I think "Michael" goes under the thread title "Old friends who've lost their minds AGAIN" / ("I didn't know you ever did")

wrath of abbott narrowly averted

Sur, I hope your friend a solution which enables everyone to be happy. I can understand her feelings (though I don't feel it that way myself). To say she's selfish, is to oversimplify things. Kate was very much OTM. I think it is VERY important for a parent to have a life "outside" the family. Have hobbies, friends,... so that you don't feel imprisoned.

OH DEAR GOD ELMO YEAH YOU ARE ONE LUCKY BASTID YOU GOT INTO IT

*grooves*

BOY YOU'VE GOT TO PROVE YOUR LOVE TO ME

You've all had too much coffee haven't you.

I AM IN IT

;)

i met my girl tonight. she's doing well. not really considering doing anything -- just thinking about past decisions, and how they weren't the most informed. she's also taking up her undergrad degree again, and i pressed her to find other means of occupying herself in her free time. all in all, a very positive conversation.

<3

sometimes we say radical things so we can make little changes. i'm happy to hear she's feeling better and more positive. yay

Yay hooray.

(In my case I have determined that the dust bunnies around here share no aesthetic interests with me and must be sacrificed.)

i met my girl tonight. she's doing well. not really considering doing anything -- just thinking about past decisions, and how they weren't the most informed. she's also taking up her undergrad degree again, and i pressed her to find other means of occupying herself in her free time. all in all, a very positive conversation.

This makes me really happy. Be really supportive about that undergrad degree thing, it's a lot more hard work when you're balancing it with a whole real life than when you're a carefree student.

sorry 4 days late but

Seriously, though, why do people get married?

Marriage is an institution. It is a particular thing. You can enter into all manner of long-term, commited relationships and then break up later when shit gets boring or depressing. Or do whatever you want.

Marriage kinda means that you'll slug through feeling stuck or having a bad spot. Marriage means you'll make it work.

I'm not judging your friend. I know very little about her situation. I just think that, in general, people should give a good, long, hard thought about what marriage means. In most situations, I think they folks should do something else.

-- Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Friday, August 15, 2008 4:15 PM (4 days ago) Bookmark Link

wow what a load of shit? so if this person wasn't married, but have kids, everything would be alright?!?!

Although I do not fully agree, I do think Fluffy has some valid points. Friend of my cousin was in a longterm relationship for YEARS. Married and then one year later divorced. She said marriage changed everything. And it does.

I think people (without kids) are VERY unaware how much a child really changes your life. It's very easy to say:"Well, get a grip, get your life together." when it's not you in that position. The advice to take a therapist is tossed off, as if to say that just solves the problem. Yes,a therapist can/might help but it's still YOU who has to get through the shit and "get your life together." A breakdown is not uncommon. If you're not feeling well and think you can't cope, being a SAHM is even more difficult for some because you are isolated. Especially if you are financially unable of dropping your kid at a daycare (and work or have a day off, it can be super SUPER hard). Also having two kids is even harder. I am guessing your friend has to take care of them most of the time (while the husband is away), no? Is her husband sometimes away for longer periods? If so, tell her you (and I) am in total awe of how she's doing so much all alone. It'll be hard for her to juggle life. Sometimes women abandon their kids. Although I do not approve at all, I can in some cases understand they would. It takes a lot of character to be a wife/mother/worker.

keeping a marriage going is like keeping your car on the track at the indy 500, it's challenging but a steady hand helps and you can get the hang of it.

having kids is like doing the same with a howling spider monkey loose in the car, and the steering wheel occasionally bursts into flame. you also get the hang of this but it's hell on the nerves.

hey, do you guys know that song by red house painters called "michael"? it's kind of what i gather that this thread's all about (confession: TOO LONG; DIDN'T READ). anyhow, i just called the "michael" in my life. beautiful person. he never "lost his mind", but he went through some heavy shit. use your imagination. suffice it to say that there's no way that i would have so many of the good qualities inside of me that i do now if i had never encountered him. the man is a sweet soul.

i will report back when i hear from him.

talked to him last night. he seems to be in a good place, after having wrestled with junkiedom and alcohol issues over the years... yes, this sounds unbearably cliche, but, fuck if it wasn't sooo good to hear his voice.

i will probably end up seeing him next month.

Close friend is talking to her ex again. Who she's broken up three times over seven years (including once while they were engaged, the first time) for cheating on her, sending her into a couple of nasty drug and alcohol spins. Admits that he'll probably just do it again and can never trust him. But it's love!

Argh.

Saw that someone posted a picture of a friend from high school on Facebook. Scrolled down a bit more and saw that it was a mugshot and a list of charges: Domestic Battery, Strangulation, Cruelty to animals, Intimidation, Criminal Confinement, Battery with Injury. WTF.

The absolute worst I could've said about him back in the day (I haven't talked to him in over 15 years) was that he was a total pothead. But he was also a pretty happy-go-lucky, goofy guy and I never would've predicted he'd come to this.

OH, and this photo came from the Facebook page of the police department in my hometown, where they apparently post every single mugshot they take? Is that seriously on the up-and-up?!

Nude Spock, a story of it's own, yeah?

Had a long text in the week from an old friend I've not seen for a while in which he ranted about Extinction Rebellion and how they wont listen to white men, and then concluded by saying: "May go up on Friday to check it out but may end up in a fight as I don't suffer fools gladly having done so most of my life trying to fit in even though my instincts told me not to".

Which was then followed by homophobic abuse, then an enquiry about my weekend . And then yesterday, more homophobic abuse.

57 years old is quite late in the day to 'lose your mind'