U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot in the head outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

I hope that's not where we're going, but you know if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies [emphasis added] and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out." Sharron Angle

"Don't retreat. Instead - reload" Sarah Palin

"To the day I die, I am going to be a progressive hunter." Glenn Beck

"I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous [emphasis added] on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back." and "...having a revolution every now and then is a good thing" Michele Bachmann

Just updated, she's dead.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/sarahpac_0.jpg

RIP

:(. God this is fucking awful.

Yes. It's better not to hide this topic in the general politics thread. This is not general politics any more.

from gawker

Update: We spoke to an eyewitness, Steven Rayle who was on the scene at the time of the shooting and helped to hold the suspect down while waiting for police. Here's what he said:

The event was very informal: Gifford had set up a table outside the Safeway and about 20-30 people were gathered to talk to her. The gunman, who may have come from inside the Safeway, walked up and shot Gifford in the head first. According to Rayle, who is a former ER doctor, Gifford was able to move her hands after being shot.

After shooting Gifford, the gunman opened fire indiscriminately for a few seconds, hitting a number of people, including a kid no older than 10 years old. Rayle hid behind a concrete pole and pretended to be dead. When the gunman apparently ran out of ammunition he attempted to flee, but a member of Gifford's staff tackled him. The Rayle helped hold him down while waiting for the sheriff to arrive, about 15-or 20 minutes later. 30 minutes later the EMS came. Rayle said he was "stunned" by how long it took medical help to arrive.

The man was young, mid-to-late 20s, white clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing and said nothing during the shooting or while being held down. He didn't look like a businessman, but more of a "fringe character," our source said.

whos reporting shes dead?

fuck limbaugh, bachmann, tea party, beck et al's inflammatory rhetoric, but just as much, fuck everyone in the GOP who tacitly endorses it by refusing to condemn it

npr xp

NPR link @ top: "Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and six others died after a gunman opened fire at a public event on Saturday, the Pima County, Ariz., sheriff's office confirms."

gr8080, click on your link again

one silver lining (if you could even call it that) is that this will undoubtedly draw scrutiny to the Palin campaign for the irresponsible ad and the 'getting out of control' tendencies of the extreme right, regardless of whether it is determined that the motivation had anything to do with it at all.

still, I wish we didn't need events like this to make this country realize shit needs to change.

Rest in Peace.

Seven people!

fuck limbaugh, bachmann, tea party, beck et al's inflammatory rhetoric, but just as much, fuck everyone in the GOP who tacitly endorses it by refusing to condemn it

― uh, do you have an electronic virgin, uh what (Z S)

Seven people is more people than died in the Boston Massacre./

disgusting

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html

ZS otm.

Don't you see, if she was carrying a gun (and the little kid and others were, too) maybe none of this would have ever happened.

Tragic. I'm not even sure of the feelings I've feeling. Anger, revulsion, frustration. I hope this is not the direction we're going in.

I am really bummed about this.

This just strengtheners my conviction that handguns should be banned.

This is truly incredible. I can't imagine the disgusting " ... but ..." Republicans will inevitably tack onto their pat condemnations.

*strengthens

This is the direction we have been going in. Everyone was basically waiting for this to happen.

xpost

me too Abbs. the biggest fear in my mind right now, is regardless of what turns out to be the reasoning, I'm afraid if this isn't handled properly by both parties in the media and press, more of the fringe lunatics are going to start seeing that "if you can't get your way, kill the person keeping you from it" is a viable response to political disagreements.

I mean I miss the days when political disagreements just made for amusing SNL sketchs :(

yeah, I have a feeling the level of disgust is going to elevate in the coming days as the reactions start coming in

isn't this type of thing rare (senate/congress assassinations)? I know about the Rev Jim Jones incident, but not sure about others?

Really, though, at this early stage it's really a gun control issue. We don't anything about the person that did it yet, do we? Or why?

Man I think I am just going to avoid the news for the next week. I don't need to think less of the human race.

one silver lining (if you could even call it that) is that this will undoubtedly draw scrutiny to the Palin campaign for the irresponsible ad and the 'getting out of control' tendencies of the extreme right,

No it won't. The Republican Party and its apparatchicks are made of fucking teflon.

Totally understand and share the sentiments here, but honestly we have no idea yet why this guy did this. He might have thought she was part of a Martian invasion. I almost hope so, because psycho-off-his-meds is less scary than if he turns out to have Sarah Palin books in his car.

Anyway. Just fucking awful awful awful.

http://i.imgur.com/HBrrK.png

nope, and might not for a little while.

re: gun control though, I mean it drives me insane that the rhetoric that works the best on the pro-gun constituency is usually OTT conspiratorial rambling ie "everyone murdered could have been saved if they had a gun" or "who's gonna protect you from the gov't under martial law"?

if I had a gun I'd probably shoot myself in the knee with it, even if I had one if someone wanted to off me they probably would succeed.

Man I think I am just going to avoid the news for the next week. I don't need to think less of the human race.

good luck, usa

i am with tipsy on this one. praying this is unrelated to stupid fringe politics.

Turn to 'ban all guns' vs 'arm everyone' sad but inevitable. We've got several gun control threads if you want to do that.

thanks michelle

Michelle Bachmann

Rep. Giffords and all victims in today's shooting are in my prayers. Those responsible must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
4 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone

i am with tipsy on this one. praying this is unrelated to stupid fringe politics.

― mavisbeacon666 (San Te), Saturday, January 8, 2011 9:24 AM (6 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yah i hope this was just a crazy demons-in-my-head guy

not that that would make anything better

http://www.warchat.org/pictures/world_war_i_1914-1918_archduke_ferdinand.jpg

xpost is that really bachmann's twitter feed? because she has one l in her first name

things like this sometimes make me want to emigrate but then I think to myself "Fuck that, let THEM leave"

ZS: http://twitter.com/MicheleBachmann/status/23816961121058816

that would be "my bad"

Turned on Fox News...they're reporting that the gunman shouted something as he started firing...Fox host asked "do we know what he shouted or what language it was in?"

yah i hope this was just a crazy demons-in-my-head guy

not that that would make anything better

― gr8080, Saturday, January 8, 2011 7:25 PM (53 seconds ago) Bookmark

But the extreme right needs to be confronted. There are some scary currents in this country, and maybe this could serve as a warning.

xpost

yea, regardless of whether it's linked or not, or even if this hadn't happened today, there's a frightening 'tone' to the rhetoric of the right that makes me long for the days of people going "FUCK BILL FOR GETTING HIS DICK SUCKED", at least you could just lol at them.

yeah, even if it is a violent psychotic, why a democratic congresswoman? it's unlikely the irreponsible climate of invective has had no effect on this

we'll know in 48 hours max anyway

she might not be dead. MSNBC just said that a SWAT surgeon is there and that she is still alive?

don't mean to raise false hopes, I'm just saying there are contradicting accounts

CNN is reporting her death.

i think this may encourage a lowering of the invective though i'm not sure it will spur a total backlash.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2008/aug/13/police-chasing-after-shooting-democratic-party-hea/ - nothing new here, gop will offer soft condemnation, talk radio will blast the media for portraying this guy as having anything to do w/ tea party, rightwing fringe (cf their reaction to ok city, which they still use to this day as an example of how out of control liberal the lamestream media is), someone will find a not remotely equivalent statement from obama or clinton or some prominent dem (or even just perceived powerful lib - rosie o'donnell, whoever) and the right will spin it as equivalent or in fact worse (for now they make do w/ 'how many ppl did liberals like hitler, stalin, mao etc kill?'). nothing will change. bill o'reilly called on george tiller to be killed, george tiller was killed, and not even two years later he's interviewing the president at the super bowl. horrified by this, not shocked, not remotely.

this is horrible. is there something you all saw or read that confirms that this was politically motivated? i realize it's an obvious inference, and i just read that her office has received threats recently, but neither of the articles linked in this thread (or that i've seen just now) comes out and says it.

oh, i see tipsy was wondering the same thing.

Is it right that the Palin crosshairs just went up Thursday?

killer did not state his motivations, so investigation must transpire.

no. palin crosshairs were there before midterm elections. not sure if they're back.

This being Arizona doesn't help dispel the right-wing theory.

xpost

http://i.imgur.com/3qp64.png

What was her stance on immigration reform?

people need to be sharing this and getting awareness out, I mean obviously an assassination isn't going to go unnoticed by everybody but it enver ceases to amaze me how few people know what's going on.

my friends probably hate me for facebooking the hell out of it but whatever...

x-post Apparently, they are. Or were back. The crosshairs.

i guess i (and many other people) am jumping to conclusions. but when someone runs up to a politician and shoots them point blank in the head, i assume that the politics of the victim has something to do with it, and i assume that the shooter is probably insane and easily persuaded by things heard on tv/radio/political leaders.

nyt says condition of Giffords is "unclear", and MSNBC says she is "in surgery".

Giffords opposes the state law as "divisive" and supports comprehensive immigration reform at the federal level. Kelly supports the law and opposes a sweeping reform bill, calling instead for existing laws to be better enforced.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/10/08/20101008tucson-gabrielle-giffords-jesse-kelly.html#ixzz1ATTZwVFI

Hospital spokeswoman just said she's alive and in surgery.

hang in there, GG

whoa. CNN's headline says she is dead.

xpost

MSNBC now says she is dead. grrr let's get links in here, i'm lost now

NY Times: "Her condition was unknown. She was taken to University Medical Center in Tucson, the trauma center for the area, about 10 miles away, but NPR and CNN reported that she had been killed. NPR said that six others had been killed in the shooting. "

What about the others shot? Confirmed dead, or conflicting reports?

She's dead.

CNN now saying "conflicting accounts"

I lived in her district for 18 years. Crazy shit right here.

From http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/08/several-people-shot-at-arizona-store-police-official-says/:

[2:23 p.m.] U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords died Saturday after a gunman opened fire at a Tuscon, Arizona grocery store, a law enforcement source said. Giffords, who had been holding a meeting with constituents, was among at least 12 people shot.

On a side note, how will all congressmen, Republican and Democrat alike, react to this when it comes to public appearances and town hall stuff? They can't possibly all roll with massive security details.

NPR [http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona]:

The Pima County, Ariz., sheriff's office told member station KJZZ the 40-year-old Democrat was killed.

NPR has backed off of death pronouncement

CNN blog just updated:

[2:43 p.m.] There were conflicting reports Saturday about the condition of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords following a shooting Saturday at a Tucson, Arizona, grocery store. Giffords' press secretary said the congresswoman remains in surgery for her injuries, disputing an earlier report from a law enforcement source saying she had died.

omg

Waiting for Palin's Twitter feed to update from shit on the price of gold ...

lol i saw that.

probably furiously changing the gun targets to pink elephants

no. you can sadly already hear the predictable response forming on the right, i.e., stop painting all of us with a broad-brush, that's discrimination, too; there are lots of threatening, crazy leftists; allowing lawful citizens to carry guns is the only way to deter such conduct; and so on.

it's depressing. makes me wonder how great a tragedy it would really take to shatter these prefab positions and move the country in one direction or the other. i'm not sure anything can do it, at this point.

Statement from Boehner: http://speaker.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=219343

Gun targets? Those were simply Hopi Indian symbols of independence!

the loudest people are always the most polarizing and the most divisive and usually the lowest common denominator, and unfortunately those are the ones who get the most attention because most people like to be reassured that they're absolutely correct and the other side is 100% wrong and/or evil rather than being challenged or encouraged to have empathy.

that all leads to shit like our current political climate.

Boehner made it through that whole statement without a single "...but." Same with Bachmann's. I assume all the "but" qualifiers will come later.

officials will be gracious. look for others to do the dirty work.

Fox says that their sources say that she is in surgery in critical condition.

reuters says that, too.

officials will be gracious

Officials, all of them, will be scared and unsure. Especially fellow representatives like Giffords.

That's about the only takeaway here for now.

CNN has University Medical Center spokeswoman on the phone-- she's in surgery

What kind of law enforcement agency tells reporters someone is dead WITHOUT CONFIRMING IT THEMSELVES?

LOL, you know about AZ law enforcement, right?

Guess Palin's map was taken down again.

Sarah Palin to deny ad ever existed and that liberals created it and hacked her website at about 5 pm

just found out a few of my friends parents knew her personally. one of them lived about 3 minutes from that grocery store. really hoping theyre ok.

Wow, Gifford's married to an astronaut, and her brother in law is in space right now.

lives* not lived jesus

Giffords'.

Sarah Palin to deny ad ever existed and that liberals created it and hacked her website at about 5 pm

i know you're kidding, but to drag this point a bit elsewhere: she won't deny it. she'll take it down temporarily, to show respect and sensitivity for the situation, and then strategically deploy it again when her base wells-up outrage over people calling them violent or threatening or crazy or some similar charge. the "outrage/umbrage machine" on the right is well-oiled and fine-tuned.

Wait, do they have the guy that did this? Is he alive?

Hey guys this isn't a race to be super-fucking-gauche. It's okay to wait until we have any idea what happened before you blame a cable tv pundit for mass murder, or insinuate that members of Congress are secretly enthused by it.

yes, yes

xpost

maybe to expose the REpubs the Democrats should use the opposite approach and say they know that the Republican ads/sentiment weren't motivation because the conservatives are just "big pussies anyway".

a federal judge was also shot at the event, says MSNBC

"The suspect ran off and was tackled by a bystander. He was taken into custody. Witnesses described him as in his late teens or early 20s."

you're right, kerm.

one source says the judge was killed

I don't think anybody in this thread has definitively said "this is what caused it". most are (rightfully) pointing out that the conservative ad campaigns have blended violent imagery with their messages, which individually might not hold a lot of weight, but collectively can have a heavy influence on the populace.

Regardless of whether they themselves are responsible for the act, they do bear responsibility for manipulating public sentiment which may influence violent acts like these, if not now, then in the future.

meanwhile, when one jackass compared Bush to Hitler in an ad submitted by one individual to MoveOn.org's ad campaign in 2004, conservatives were in an uproar.

(ftr I do not support those Hitler comparisons either, they're lazy and highly inflammatory)

tbh i think this may in fact severely damage sarah palin b/c she is the figurehead in a lot of ways for the sort of invective that people will point to as the reason for this (such as her map), if it does in fact come out that this kid is someone who is on the extreme right and not just an oswald-like random crazy person. other republicans might not be as damaged by it.

My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona.

On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.

- Sarah Palin

when it boils right down to it too, as much as some of us like to demonize those on the other side, I think the general majority of conservative party citizens are going to be just as reviled by the violence as we are. it's just that the fringe nutsos aren't anywhere near the small minority they used to be.

eh, that's only partially true.

so justice is the preemptive "don't take our guns" word of the day

CNN's blog thing:

[Updated at 3:oo p.m. ET] Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is currently undergoing surgery for a gunshot wound to the head, a spokeswoman for the University Medical Center in Tucson said.

Nine patients were brought to the hospital, including a child. All of them are in either serious or critcial condition and are undergoing surgery, spokeswoman Darci Slaten said.

A federal judge was also among those shot, a law enforcement official said. It is not clear whether he was among those taken to the hospital.

is surgery an encouraging sign? I mean given my idiocy on these matters, I'm assuming she wouldn't be there if there was no shot in hell?

Arizona, btw, allows the carrying of concealed weapons without a state permit, and I'd venture to guess there's a strong possibility that several people at the event or nearby probably had firearms; but an event like this puts the lie to the myth of brave armed citizens stopping crimes from taking place. This shit just goes down so quickly, there's no time for other citizens to react safely or sanely on the spot.

I think all surgery means is that she was alive when she got to the hospital. Which is obviously better than the alternative.

Well, there are any number of possibilities. I mean, she may be on life support, or brain dead, but neither of those things is quite "alive." I hope she pulls through intact, obviously.

MSNBC just reported that while Giffords was being wheeled into surgery "she was talking".

obv a good sign if it's true

@Phil OTM. the myth of being safe due to owning weapons has always been horseshit. I don't know that I support banning guns now simply because I know it'd be incorporated in the mob/drug trade and wouldn't go away since it has been legal, but they definitely need to be more tightly controlled and regulated.

Ah, but maybe *more* people would have died were the crowd not as well armed!

CNN reports that al-Qaeda is not a suspect at the moment.

Arizona, btw, allows the carrying of concealed weapons without a state permit, and I'd venture to guess there's a strong possibility that several people at the event or nearby probably had firearms; but an event like this puts the lie to the myth of brave armed citizens stopping crimes from taking place. This shit just goes down so quickly, there's no time for other citizens to react safely or sanely on the spot.

― you think you're cool, but you read ick (Phil D.), Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:16 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

QFT

I hate having to politicize this whole damn thing, since it's a human being, but just thinking what a sympathetic political character you get in the Congresswoman if she survives.

not why I'm rooting for her to pull thru but just thought of it

I hate having to politicize this whole damn thing,

Then don't, at least for a little while.

Alternative potential NRA response: the system works, because this guy was prevented from purchasing even more efficiently deadly weapons!

Sorry, hypocritical of me. Carry on.

I hate having to politicize this whole damn thing, since it's a human being, but just thinking what a sympathetic political character you get in the Congresswoman if she survives.

this is an insanely retarded post

Remember the good ol' days when Texas was the batshit state?

If you believe most people who vote GOP favor violence against elected officials, that says a lot about you & little about GOP voters.

it's one thing to politicize (necessary, seeing as she's a politician), it's another thing to think about political gain, or elections etc

http://gawker.com/5728545/shot-congresswoman-was-in-sarah-palins-crosshairs

handguns should be banned

sure, but dream on

the political gain will be many more people having a reason to accuse republicans of all being like this or implicitly supportive of it, which is no gain at all in the long run.

@Phil OTM. the myth of being safe due to owning weapons has always been horseshit.

my brother-in-law, a great guy in general, has always been right-wing, and is increasingly part of the "gun and gun rights culture," e.g., he is now an nra member and active in the group, goes to shooting ranges, and -- most maddening to me -- insists that the guns-hurt-people view is unsupported propaganda. i tried GOOGLING the study that says that you're six times more likely to kill a member of your own household than an invader if you have guns in the home, but the first 10 or so hits were newer studies suggesting the opposite. i haven't read the studies, and i'm deeply skeptical of them. mostly it makes me think that science and empirical data are increasingly tortured to meet political ends. it may always have been true, but it seems more true nowadays.

j0rdan, fuck off dude

let's not do this in this thread

i wasn't even remotely talking about political gain or elections, just that her surviving might elicit sympathy. leaving this thread, emotions running too high at the moment.

btw j0rdan is the same guy who once said he supported dudes getting beat down at protests fwiw

jesus

morbs telling people w/ unrealistic political ideals to "dream on"

lol, yeah

Ohio has had legal concealed carry, for some five years now, and I know of only three local cases in which a permit holder has used his gun:

1. A man who was accosted on his front porch in Cleveland by two would-be muggers shot both of them, killing one. He was later driven from his home by friends and family of the "victim."

2. A dude trying to get a parking space in a garage for a Cavs game in downtown Cleveland got pissed off at the parking attendant, walked up to him and shot him dead in cold blood. The parking attendant also had a permit and was carrying his own gun. He never even drew it.

3. A police officer in Twinsburg, where my friend is the chief of police, conducted a late night traffic stop and was shot and killed by the driver, a permit holder.

So, number of crimes prevented: 1. Number of cold-blooded murders: 2. That's in the last 16 months in the greater Cleveland area. Don't know how it's gone in the rest of the state.

Frankly, I like her attitude -- assuming she survives, she'll feel the loss of this certainty every day:

This was not the first time someone brought a gun to a Giffords event. A protester protester in August brought a gun to Giffords' Congress on Your Corner event in Douglas. Police were alerted after he dropped the firearm.

"When you represent a district that includes the home of the O.K. Corral and Tombstone, 'the Town Too Tough to Die,' nothing's a surprise out in Cochise County," Giffords, D-Ariz., said Tuesday in an interview with The Arizona Republic Editorial Board.

The man in question shouted "some pretty disparaging comments," Giffords said, but "at no point did I ever feel in danger and at no point did I ever feel there was a problem."

xps Guys may I suggest you bump a gun control clusterfuck thread if you feel the need to shoot that dead horse?

my 'unrealistic' ideals, gr80 and Dan, need to be used to fight this bloody craven corporatist fuckface in the White House who is going to let these asshole Cro-Magnons shoot their way into the White House eventually.

dream on

Unleash the Craven!

jokes, sorry

bloody craven corporatist fuckface in the White House

this has always been barack obama's nickname btw.

liberalism is the worst

oh yeah, i've told you it's fucking over, i just wanna die before it reaches homeless/concentration camp status.

hey guys a congresswoman in arizona got shot in the head did you hear?

ugh morbs

Federal judge being reported as dead by law enforcement.

Judge John Roll died.

I figured the number had to be small, but I'm actually kinda gratified it has been only this:

At least 60 Members of Congress have died of something other than natural causes while in office, according to a Congressional Research Service report from 2002.

Of those, most were killed in automobile or plane crashes or committed suicide.
At least 10 were killed:

* Sen. David Colbreth Broderick (D-Calif.) was killed on Sept. 16, 1859, in a duel.

* Sen. Edward Dickinson Baker (R-Ore.) was killed on Oct. 21, 1861, in a Civil war battle.

* Rep. Johnathan Cilley (D-Maine) was killed on Feb. 24, 1838, in a duel.

* Rep. Cornelius Springer Hamilton (R-Ohio) was killed on Dec. 22, 1867, by an insane son.

* Rep. James Hinds (R-Ark.) was assassinated on Oct. 22, 1868.

* Sen. Robert F. Kennedy (D-N.Y.) was assassinated on June 6, 1968.

* Sen. Huey Long (D-La.) was assassinated and died on Sept. 10, 1935.

* Rep. Spencer Darwin (D-Mo.) was killed on Aug. 28, 1931, in a duel.

* Rep. John McPherson Pinckney (D-Texas) was assaulted and killed on April 24, 1905.

* Rep. Leo J. Ryan (D-Calif.) died from gunshot wounds received while visiting an American religious commune in Guyana on Nov. 18, 1978.

UGH YEAH (jeff). change the name of the fucking country to Ughmerica, one it's richly deserved all along.

Basic info on Roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCarthy_Roll

I knew about Ryan in Jonestown.

Can't believe they still had duels in 1931.

xpost

Adding fuel to the fire, but apparently Giffords was one of only two senators on Palin's take back the 20 target list who was actually re-elected. The other being Nick Rahall.

* Sen. David Colbreth Broderick (D-Calif.) was killed on Sept. 16, 1859, in a duel.
* Sen. Edward Dickinson Baker (R-Ore.) was killed on Oct. 21, 1861, in a Civil war battle.
* Rep. Johnathan Cilley (D-Maine) was killed on Feb. 24, 1838, in a duel.
* Rep. Spencer Darwin (D-Mo.) was killed on Aug. 28, 1931, in a duel.

dueling in 1931, come on man

What an awful thing to read about. I hope as many of the injured as possible pull through.

Ah, looks like the Spencer Darwin date is wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_Darwin_Pettis

theres a duel in tender is the night

guns are probably the most heinous invention of all time and when i really think about how uncommon they are in most folks' day to day lives but how they're seen almost 24/7 in entertainment media, it makes me think our brains are in fact being poisoned by violent imagery.

maybe the second most behind nukes

guys i'm seriously tripping out that my bestie's mom and dad were there. they're friends w/ giffords and live like 3 mins away from that grocery store.

i cant get a hold of anyone in their fam :-/

: (

hope you're able to contact them soon.

<3 to gr8080

theres a duel in tender is the night

Nah dude, that's just Jackson Browne hitting Darryl Hannah.

MSNBC reports that she is expected to "pull through".

Oh, Grady. *fingers crossed*

Federal authorities identify the gunman as Jared Laughner of Arizona, born September 1988

http://kateoplis.tumblr.com/post/2655554409/msnbc-talks-to-rep-gabrielle-gifford-about-the

MSNBC talks to Rep. Gabrielle Gifford about the death threats, vandalism and harassments. Aired 3/25/10.

“Sarah Palin has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they’ve gotta realize there are consequences to that action.”

Giffords' District Director is pronounced dead

btw there's a feed on FoxNews from a local station called KGUN

Spencer Darwin Pettis (1802 – August 28, 1831), U.S. Representative from Missouri. The fierce campaign of 1830 led to a quarrel over the United States Bank issue with Major Thomas Biddle. The quarrel escalated into a duel in which both men were killed on Bloody Island (Mississippi River) near St. Louis, Missouri.

my 'unrealistic' ideals, gr80 and Dan, need to be used to fight this bloody craven corporatist fuckface in the White House who is going to let these asshole Cro-Magnons shoot their way into the White House eventually.

lol yeah how could Obama let this woman get shot, he clearly wasn't doing his job

Best wishes for you and yours, gr8080.

Allowing that Ryan's death happened in a truly extreme situation that took place outside of the country, that's a remarkable -- and honestly gratifying -- reflection on the fact that no sitting US Representative has been murdered in over a hundred years (and hopefully that will remain the case after today). Our collective shock is not that that we've somehow built to 'a moment' given the current climate, it's that this really is not something that happens in our society given its strains and flashpoints, especially since Representatives are seen to be closer to their respective on-the-ground communities than Senators are by default.

Murdered on US soil, I should amend.

shit gr80. hope things turn out okay.

Giffords' father had previously said that the 'entire tea party' was her enemy.

Is it Jared Loughner, maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

or sorry, I guess he said that today.

Yeah, that interview with her on MSNBC is eerie.

Hope your friends and their family are ok, gr80

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

the shooter's youtube

dammit beaten

fingers crossed gr8080

His favorite video there seems to suggest it's him.

crüt, these ppl have to be treated like the enemy, but the prez sees liberal wackos from MoveOn as the enemy.

do we have any other info on the shooter?

Some more about Roll:

--

Immigration suit threats

Judge Roll in 2009, faced death threats after presiding over a $32 million civil-rights lawsuit. The lawsuit was filed by illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher. After Judge Roll ruled the case would be certified, threats came from talk-radio shows which fueled controversy and spurred audiences into making threats against the judge[2].

The threats materialized after one show, Judge Roll's name logged more than 200 phone calls as some callers threatened the judge and his family[2].

This resulted in the judge and his wife were under a protection detail for one month as Judge Roll was given twenty four hours a day, seven days a week security by the US Marshals Service. An US Attorney's investigation ruled that four men were identified as threat makers, but no charges were filed[2].

In a July 9, 2009 interview with the Arizona Republic, Judge Roll described the time under high security as "unnerving and invasive. . . . By its nature it has to be," Roll said. Roll also said, "It (the security) was handled very professionally by the Marshals Service."[2]

At the end of the month, Roll said four key men had been identified as threat makers[2].

22-year-old Jared Loughner is in custody. A minute of searching tells me he went to Pima College. No facebook page and MySpace is restricted.

press conference on now

dude says he's "optimistic about her recovery"

http://gallery.pictopia.com/azstar/gallery/102269/photo/8842226/?o=12

http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image%3Fprovider_id%3D328%26ptp_photo_id%3Dazstar%3A8842226%26size%3D420x300_mb%26re%3D1%26m%3D1268702860.0

?

update: my friend's mom and dad weren't there but they're tight w/ the dude who died ;_;

i'm also wondering if it's loughner (rather than laughner" based off of google search results

From Jared Loughner's Youtube page:

Books:I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

Jonah Goldberg chortling with glee and rubbing his hands together as we speak.

Press conference on BBC News just now from the hospital, saying one dead, a child.

Krugman:

"You know that Republicans will yell about the evils of partisanship whenever anyone tries to make a connection between the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc. and the violence I fear we’re going to see in the months and years ahead. But violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it’s long past time for the GOP’s leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers."

horrible, horrible news

horrible, horrible people: http://i.imgur.com/kujYU.jpg

What's all this nut's stuff about a "new currency," assuming this nut is that nut?

perhaps most telling: Phantom Toll Booth

seems like someone who should be on meds

Yeah, if that really is the shooter and that's his YouTube, he is crazier than a shithouse rat.

sarah palin's facebook page now closed to comments from others fwiw

holy shit these youtubes

OMG, if this is also that guy, this guy is nuts:

hxxp://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/f/0/3L1lsLU-kUw

or so it looks like, they've maybe just closed it to people being able to make wall posts

this dude's a gold freak apparently, we may have been looking at the wrong sarah palin tweet

Interests:My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!

You didn't study grammar.

I went through one era of political assasinations in the USA already, with JFK, MLK Jr., RFK, and George Fucking Wallace and at least a couple of dozen killings of civil rights activists. What seems different now is that the issues that drove the murders back then were bone-grinding-on-bone, really basic-to-society issues. Today, with all the FOX news, tea party, scare-tactic crappola, the rhetoric is, if anything more shrill and strident than the 1960s, but what is at stake is realtive small potatoes - nothing worth murdering for.

If one thing is powering this anger more than anything else, it is the subliminal economic warfare that is consuming our society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4

How To: Mind Controller

From: Classitup10 | December 06, 2010 | 324 views

If you’re editing of every belief and religion reaches the final century then the writer for every belief and religion is you.

You’re editing of every belief and religion reaches the final century.

Thus, the writer for every belief and religion is you.

You control every — thought, action, and lifestyle — for the person or people as the mind controller.

I’m able to control every belief and religion by being the mind controller.

I can't parse any of that

I can't stomach googling any more, but the guy has a virtual trail of crazy.

Def. anti-gov, but he seemed to be anti ALL gov, left and right alike.

lol he writes like the Time Cube guy

I can't parse any of that

Reads like something some deep-voiced guy would say on a dance 12" from 1993.

lol he writes like the Time Cube guy

^^^^

he writes like my bipolar roommate who just got arrested

crut you room w/ gucci?

I’m able to control every brick and religion by being the mind controller.

An important concurrence to this story: how did CNN, NPR and others manage to report this woman's death when she is clearly not dead?

Pics from shooter's MySpace, allegedly. Note upper left.

http://twitpic.com/3o8ajp

Fucking Twitpic. http://twitpic.com/3o8ajp

I keep reading random mentions of other suspects in custody.

the sheriff's office reported that she was dead

http://i53.tinypic.com/2rc0e8x.png

lol

xpost

"A source" at the Sheriff's office reported that she was dead.

O_O

From http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/live-blog-representative-giffords-shot/, McCain's statement:

"I am horrified by the violent attack on Representative Gabrielle Giffords and many other innocent people by a wicked person who has no sense of justice or compassion. I pray for Gabby and the other victims, and for the repose of the souls of the dead and comfort for their families. I beg our loving Creator to spare the lives of those who are still alive, heal them in body and spirit, and return them to their loved ones.

"Whoever did this; whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race, and they deserve and will receive the contempt of all decent people and the strongest punishment of the law."

In peripherally-related news, Sarah Palin continues to quit at stuff.

Guy's youtube channel is like inhabiting a mind you really don't want to inhabit

The killer reminds me of the Virginia Tech shooter.

Movies:(*My idiom: I could coin the moment!*)
Music:Pass me the strings!

i feel so sad for people like him :(

Yeah, this just makes me feel ill.

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/e/2e/b0f/e2eb0f94-2fb9-11df-8820-001cc4c002e0.image.jpg
Tucson Festival of Books - Jackie Storrer right tries her best to figure out the clues on a giant crossword as Jared Loughner a volunteer stands in the background during the Tucson Festival of Books

Friend just tweeted that we should exercise caution in who we blame 'unless you also blame jd salinger for lennon or jodie foster for reagan'

reminded him that jd salinger never put a target on lennon's house, and mccartney never held 'lennon target practice'

If anyone would like a break in the grimness, feel free to note that I've restarted the "Free Cake!" thread

good for john mccain. his statement felt genuine (whether it was or not idk, obv).

Let's consider for a moment that it was John McC that unleashed Palin on the country.

this is not one of dude's videos but its the only video he had listed under his "favorites"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L1lsLU-kUw

actually that looks like it might be another one of his accounts

i get the impression a lot of the facebook profiles/youtube accounts doing the rounds are fakes created in the last 60 mins

good for john mccain. his statement felt genuine (whether it was or not idk, obv).

― Daniel, Esq., Saturday, January 8, 2011 3:48 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

it's useless to try & parse who is genuine & who isn't

^ generation's motto

you can tell which people are being sincere by the number of people standing around them in a circle pointing and laughing

We need to realize that the rhetoric, and the firing people up and … for example, we’re on Sarah Palin’s ‘targeted’ list, but the thing is, the way she has it depicted, we’re in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they’ve gotta realize that there are consequences to that action.” - U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords

So, so angry and nauseous. I'm somewhere in no man's land with respect to economic issues, but I can't fathom how any sane person could vote Republican till they expunge the brown-shirts in their midst.

Let's consider for a moment that it was John McC that unleashed Palin on the country.

he didn't even want her to be his running mate. he thought she was bad idea jeans.

maybe the statement he released is his penance.

don't know if this has been posted, from nytimes

Ms. Giffords, 40, was described as being in very critical condition at the University Medical Center in Tucson, where she was operated on by a team of neurosurgeons. One of the surgeons said that she had been shot once in the head, “through and through,” with the bullet going through her brain.

“I can tell you at this time, I am very optimistic about her recovery,” he said in a news conference. “We cannot tell what kind of recovery but I’m as optimistic as it can get in this kind of situation.”

wait, how can a bullet go thru your brain

this poor woman

without you dying

It does happen

i'm def showing my ignorance here, but like is there an actual reason to be so vehemently against national health care?

Like, at least when pro-life ppl point to the bible or whatever I can understand it . But whenever I hear someone make a case against obamacare it's just like shit that's blatantly not true (ie, losing the right to choose a doctor, death panels and dead grammas). Like is there a real, actual, non-made up reason people are so passionate about "I don't want poor people to see the doctor"

xpost -- James Brady, example number one.

it's socialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brady

Brady was among those shot during John Hinckley, Jr.'s March 30, 1981, assassination attempt on Reagan, suffering a serious head wound. During the confusion that followed after the shooting, all major media outlets erroneously reported that Brady had died. Later, when ABC News anchorman Frank Reynolds (a friend of Brady's) was forced to retract the report, he angrily stated on-air to his staff, "C'mon, let's get it nailed down!"[2] — resulting in Sam Donaldson joining him after commercial. During the hours-long operation, surgeon Dr. Arthur Kobrine was informed of the media's announcement of Brady's death, to which he retorted, "No one has told me and the patient."[3]
Although Brady survived, the wound left him partially paralyzed for life; he requires the full-time use of a wheelchair.

phineas gage yo

sounds like "making it" at this point could still be quite painful. this poor woman indeed.

xp:

Depends on caliber of the bullet. So long as the kinetic energy is low (causing little wake shock) and no major arteries are severed, you can scramble a lot of brain before the wound is necessarily fatal. IIRC, there are reports of gun suicides that have shot themselves 8 times in the head before succeeding.

really the only parts of the brain that are absolutely necessary for life are in the hindbrain. You can do a lot of damage to the rest and still survive.

Anyway, Roseanne has it right:

rosannecash
Is a 9 year old child now collateral damage? I'm heartsick.

interesting -- clearly i'm no brain scientist over here

hahaha

this is so horrible.

xp:

The record for this sort of thing seems to be held by a young man who killed his lover and then shot himself in the head seven times before giving it up as a bad business and hanging himself

Geo Stone, Suicide and Attempted Suicide, pg 298.

seems like this guy was crazy in the familiar incoherent-paranoid-politics sort of way. he may have seen sarah palin's "target" map, but it's more likely he just lives in tucson.

http://twitter.com/caitieparker

person who claims to be a high school friend of the shooter.

i think most non-conspiracy theorists re: the jfk assassination speculate oswald was just a crazy person who wanted to strike out at someone and anyone, it didn't matter who. he tried to kill a right-wing general once, then later killed jfk. i wonder if this guy may in the end have not cared who the hell giffords was or what she stood for?

The Mein Kampf fandom makes me wonder about how he felt re: immigration.

his videos are so creepy. he really seems to have taken to a few things he learned in a high-school or college rhetoric course, namely "ad hominem fallacy" and syllogisms. he treats both like he's found the secret to correcting the world.

one reason this stuff creeps me out is that there is always that strain of kids in high school and college who are intellectually arrogant and gravitate toward anything they perceive to be philosophically "extreme", whether left or right (communist manifesto AND mein kampf!) or neither. for some of these people it's a road to a more mature grappling with the world, i suppose. and obviously this guy had some, um, underlying issues.

that bodies video is one of the most unsettling things i've ever seen. i couldn't finish watching it.

w/ the parrot?

just because i hadn't seen it until now, but vaguely synchronous nutso bs in DC

i actually think palin is going to spin this as HER being victimized by people associating her w/ a horrible event she had nothing to do with.

that said, i do think the crosshairs, "take them down" rhetoric, etc. will be toned down for the next election cycle or two.

Shit--the shooter went to the same middle school as I did.

he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in '06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical.
52 minutes ago

i'm gonna go out on a limb and predict this guy's politics weren't very sophisticated, developed, coherent or consistent.

xpost - GUARANTEE that palin will manage to make out that she is the real victim here and that what the liberal media did to her is comparable or even worse than what this guy did.

cf george tiller, ok city

wouldn't count on rhetoric being toned down, not for more than a week or so at least.

that bodies video is one of the most unsettling things i've ever seen. i couldn't finish watching it.

― aka the pope (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:19 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he lights the flag on fire ~SPOILERS~

"balls," i dislike bill o'reilly as much as the next guy, but i'm not sure his rhetoric rose to the level of suggesting tiller should be killed (unless there's something i didn't see/read).

as i recall o'reilly said something like "if i could get my hands on him..." which to me seems like a rote expression of anger. is it a dumb thing for someone in o'reilly's position to say? sure. i just think it's too convenient to elide the difference between this and someone getting on the radio saying "george tiller should be killed."

same with palin. though her rhetoric was worse, i think.

Guardian saying Loughner was Afghanistan vet.

If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem.
You call me a terrorist.
Thus, the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem.

this is supposed to be a proper syllogism, but it's actually a perfect example of a tautology.

xpost

why am i parsing the ravings of a crazy person? i'll stop now.

getting frustrated by many facebook friends posting links, updates, etc. implying culpability of palin et al in this event. weird undertone of grim self-satisfaction to some of these.

i believe that right-wing rhetoric is overload with metaphors of violence, and that this is irresponsible. i've been saying as much for years. but my sense it that the connections between this and the killer are yet to be proved. given the ravings on his youtube channel (if they are authentic), it's likely to be tenuous at best.

yeah fuck palin and fuck her crosshairs/target map but ppl BLAMING her for this need to check themselves

i was initially irked by the reflexive use of the word "senseless" to describe the killings, but i think it was appropriate (though obama et al had know way of knowing this when they uttered the word).

hyperpartisan mindset instantaneously tries to score points after an unfortunate event

yeah, i feel like telling people to cool it but i don't want to get into it with actual IRL friends, honestly.

whether the dude saw palin's crosshairs map and was all "you know what, good idea!" is only slightly irrelevant -- all that rhetoric coming from ppl like her & ushered thru by ppl like the GOP & the media legitimizes violence as an appropriate response to politicians

kind of hoping 4chan makes "i'm the mind controller!" the first great meme of 2011

do we really need palin to establish the idea that killing politicians is a "thing"?

honestly i think 99.99% of people take palin/angle rhetoric as metaphors. are they responsible for the 00.01% of folks who are crazy enough not to get this?

i actually don't know what my answer to that question is!

My friend is kind of wondering aloud everywhere if this is coincidental to today being the day George Washington gave the first State of the Union in 1790.

....probably not?

all that rhetoric coming from ppl like her & ushered thru by ppl like the GOP & the media legitimizes violence as an appropriate response to politicians

― J0rdan S., Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:45 PM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark

can we like blast this from the rooftop of america

it happened on Elvis's birthday, and my mom's birthday. I wonder if this guy knows my mom?

someone mentioned the shooter's homemade videos. if this is one of them, it's just loopy. just a bizzare parade of bad syllogisms.

amaturist is right. it's a string of empty tautologies.

it's more likely that he realized that his congresswoman was gonna be sitting wide open at a safeway near his house or something tbh

xp to abbott

the angle thing was way worse. "2nd amendment remedies" is hard to parse as anything other than violence.

xp

it's a metaphor! yknow - like burning a cross or something!

ha yes Jordan I realize that is not really the reason this happened.

fwiw i find it unlikely palin/angle/beck/coulter/o'reilly/savage/etc rhetoric was a factor in this guy's 'reasoning'.

yah dude started out liberal and ended up just crazy

ha yes Jordan I realize that is not really the reason this happened.

― Stop Non-Erotic Cabaret (Abbbottt), Saturday, January 8, 2011 4:50 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol ok

I thought it was a v wacky suggestion.

that said i still reserve the right to find this rhetoric disgusting and destructive and to predict it ain't going anywhere and it wouldn't be going anywhere even if sarah palin had tweeted hey giffords is having a townhall jan 8 - time to reload ;)

started out liberal, ended up crazy: a history of neoconservatism

weird undertone of grim self-satisfaction to some of these.

from liberals? get outta town!

i was initially irked by the reflexive use of the word "senseless" to describe the killings, but i think it was appropriate (though obama et al had know way of knowing this when they uttered the word).

Not trying to be contentious here (although this isn't too controversial imo) but I think it's trite how "senseless" is used to describe killings or violence like this -- like there is a sensible kind of murder that was regrettably absent here.

I can think of a few

as can anyome with a drone missile

If I were a partisan Republican I'd want the tone of rhetoric to be toned down - there is an evidence based background to some Republican economic policy (though none as far as I can tell with regard to anti-science, anti-intellectuallism or social discrimination). All the serious policy arguments are buried in the namecalling.

Is it too much to ask that this tragedy become a teachable moment for the electorate? Regardless of whether Loughner was a Palinite, shining a spotlight on irresponsible rhetoric that the general public was unaware of, rhetoric that marks some as too irresponsible to hold public office, is a good thing, in my opinion.

skeptical this electorate is teachable tbh

^

Palin wasn't holding public office anyway.

had to skip thru the video cuz it's just too dreadful but the stuff about gold standard is a ron paul trope, he seems like a particularly unhinged backwoods antifederalist lunatic

when we have targeted killings of al qaeda leaders, or when pinochet had allende murdered -- these are killings about which we can make sense, no? no matter how horrific.

not all acts of violence resist our sense-making faculties.

weird undertone of grim self-satisfaction to some of these.

from liberals? get outta town!

― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:56 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

You seem to be an expert on grim self-satisfaction.

he seems like a particularly unhinged backwoods antifederalist lunatic

tucson is in no way "backwoods" but otherwise i agree.

yeah i meant in sentiment not location

having lived there for a few months i can attest to the proliferation of crazy-ass tweakers.

I agree with the "lunatic" - I think this guy's political beliefs are too esoteric and culled from too many disparate sources to pin down

according to the twitter account posted upthread of that girl who says she knew him well, he "was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy" (at least in 2007 when she last saw him)

he's 22, he doesn't know what he believes yet. i didn't know what the hell i believed at that age (although i was vaguely left of center).

Okay, I laughed at the "Palin's quitting again" joke

Ultimately his reasons for the shooting aren't that important, because he was obviously very mentally ill. But this was one of only two current members of Congress that Palin placed under crosshairs. This seems unlikely to be mere coincidence. Whether it's just a correlation or causation I don't know.

And I wouldn't necessarily describe this guy as "liberal" or "libertarian" or anything other that "batshit nihilist."

On a related note, I do look forward to Pareene ripping into whatever asinine Jonah Goldberg anti-liberal rant that results from this.

according to the twitter account posted upthread of that girl who says she knew him well, he "was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy" (at least in 2007 when she last saw him)

So the killer's identity and background just went from something that was going to be downplayed by Fox into something that will get its own special on Hannity's America.

and downplayed by MSNBC...

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_central_southern_az/tucson/who-is-he-suspect-in-tucson-shooting

My friend works at the UMC library and she can't go home!

my friend just reminded me that in high school we stole booze from that grocery store 1000x

Same intersection the Haunted Bookshop used to be at.

That shooter grew up in a house less than a mile from my childhood home.

BreakingNews Breaking News
2nd person involved in Rep. Giffords shooting - Pima County sheriff

^huh

?!

the sheriff doing this news conference is kinda badass fwiw

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_leq07zWEtd1qa8syoo1_400.png

shakey????

so strange. it's like the country is caught inside the framework of the plot against america. two groups who see the same events from a radically different perspective, and have a completely different narrative.

chev rivera

Chev Rivera Cheeseburger Mac is some tasty shit, and cheap.

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, speaking about Arizona: "We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

I bet Jan Brewer loved that.

that bodies video is one of the most unsettling things i've ever seen. i couldn't finish watching it.

― aka the pope (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, January 8, 2011 5:19 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

w/ the parrot?

― balls, Saturday, January 8, 2011 5:20 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

lol

from his myspace page

January 8, 2010 (posted at about 5 a.m. MT):

Good-bye friends.

Dear friends,.....Please don't be mad at me. The literacy rate is below 5%. I haven't talked to one person who is literate.

December 30, 2010:

Literate Letter: Dear Reader, Brainwash.

.....Dear Reader,..... I'm searching. Today! With every concern, my shot is now ready for aim. The hunt, a mighty thought of mine

take it to rolling gun sounds

Sherriff Dupnik is awesome and totally spoke out against bill 1070

a day off the grid so i'm catching up but:

--this dude was str8 mentally ill. gross as palin's map may be, inferring any causality is like saying jodie foster was somehow responsible for reagan getting shot. this might be a good time to point out how gross the violent rhetoric of the right is, but it also might not, cuz, you know, it didn't ~actually~ get these poor people shot. a crazy guy did.
--making this a gun control ish is also opportunistic politicizing imo, but i know i'm not in the ilx majority here.

I disagree. These things, even when done by a crazy person, don't happen in a vacuum.

the jodie foster/JD salinger etc. analogy is totally off and this comment on metafilter otm imo

People who shoot other people are nuts. Always. I could have told you he was a nut as soon as I heard he shot someone, because people who shoot other people are nuts. You don't get to absolve everyone with incendiary rhetoric just because the shooter is nuts -- all shooters are nuts. They don't live in a vacuum, after all; they're influenced by the rhetoric of the people around them and yes, if you say violent things which would only incite a crazy person, and a crazy person goes and does something terrible, you still incited them.

otm

there's a pretty stark difference between the random target of a nut's obsessions and a politician contributing to a certain atmosphere or position of the overton window

speaking in general terms here though, obviously it would be better to wait to more about what happened why in this particular case

Also, let's say that he wasn't influenced by violent rhetoric and some assholes like Palin are shouted down unfairly and decide to be more circumspect about the language they use in the future -- is that a terrible thing?

xp gbx (and a bit ot):

I favor stricter gun control, but its a political loser in most precincts that have a chance of shifting. If Dems are going to swing the 'burbs and rural areas, its with anti-gun control populists like Brian Schweitzer (Dem governor of Montana). Develop a platform that's pro-working class, pro-public health and pro-diversity, while anti-gun control and anti-drug war, and Dems could be a better big tent while capturing a lot of suburban whites for whom the 2nd amendment is a litmus test. There are bigger fish to fry.

let me clarify: the reason that this might ~not~ be a time to point out the violence of palin's (et al) sloganeering is a politically expedient one---that is, it's pretty easy to "prove" that there really is no meaningful causality between the maps and the shooting. like, for real, in actual scientific fact. it's unprovable. if the guy is as paranoid/dissociative as it appears he is, then palin's map is just another screech in an already cacophonous mental headspace. the right would be, for the first time in a while, be ~right~ to conclude that the left is just looking to lay actual blame at the feet of someone who doesn't actually deserve it. note: i said "actual blame." i'm probably just cynical, but having a national conversation about the fucking ~tone~ of discourse is doomed to failure. seizing this opportunity to point out how the GOP isn't, well, directly responsible but maybe like tacitly, subtly, encouraging of or at least ambivalent about violent talk or action or w/e, i dunno, is just asking for a STRAIGHT TALK EXPRESS smackdown on the actual merits in this particular case.

xps like i get what you all are saying, but you can just as easily say that Call of Duty is responsible for the atmosphere as palin's rhetoric.

ok now many xps

Also, let's say that he wasn't influenced by violent rhetoric and some assholes like Palin are shouted down unfairly and decide to be more circumspect about the language they use in the future -- is that a terrible thing?

― Mordy, Saturday, January 8, 2011 8:09 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

absolutely not!! i agree that their language is despicable, it just seems like a losing proposition to make a case to the public that angry tea party rhetoric contributed to this guy's decision to shoot a bunch of innocent people any more than like an action movie

oh sure. if people go too deep and direct on the "palin did this" thing then it could rebound.

good luck usa.

p.s. keep reading "palin's map" like it's a DFW construction

I think the connection between Palin's map and the assassination attempt is going to resonate for a lot of Americans

Basically the only way there's not some degree of political motivation for this, in which case somehow this dude decided "I'm going to go shoot this lady point-blank in the head" after some sort of influence from somebody somewhere, is if he is like a whole extra level of crazy and thought like she, was secretly a demon of some sort and had to be expunged before the great cleansing of Aaghroth could begin. Otherwise he is a violent lunatic who knowingly shot a Congressperson in the head.

yes. i mean this metafilter comment is statistically illiterate, but it's gets to the point of why all the "our prayers are with her family" are followed by "but..." even though we know v little about this guy

Really, we should be feeling sorry for Sarah Palin right now. Of the people on her "Crosshairs" map, only 2 are still in office. Since this nutjob was obviously acting completely randomly, and there are 535 people in Congress, it was a 0.3% chance for this particular Congresswoman to have been on her map which told people to set their sights on Democrats. Talk about bad luck!

that was xp btw

One of those was Tyler Ramsier, 24, who said he graduated from Mountain View High School a year ahead of Loughner. Ramsier said he did not know Loughner well, but said he remembered him hanging out at school with a crowd that wore Goth-style clothes and spent time "hating on" other students.

SOURCES: Giffords shooter was a teenager at one point.

Oh, awesome. It's the goth's fault. Whew. We don't have to change the way we speak and interact. Just keep those goth kids from wearing black nail polish.

^^^well but see if they're not allowed to wear nail polish or sweet dusters then the football team won't know who's a goth and who isn't and we won't be able to thin the herd before they throw up any lunatics

fwiw Tyler Ramsier is a semi-pro cyclist.

whoa gbx on some nabisco level of OTM here

heard the shooter listened to marylin manson

I think the connection between Palin's map and the assassination attempt is going to resonate for a lot of Americans

OTM whaever the shooter's motivation's were, the optics of Palin putting a crosshairs target over a congressmwoman who then actually gets shot is too much for the media to ignore. This is the kind of narrative shit will end up in books 30 years down the line as the "turning point".

yeah but the problem is that the shooter didn't just shoot "innocent people" -- he shot a congresswoman during a political event & other people at that event -- that is a political act, so SOME sort of political rhetoric (be it tea party or not) certainly did influence this act more than call of duty or an action movie

That pic of him looking like a Mudhoney roadie doesn't fit in with Goth.

I appreciate gbx's point, but if something like this shouldn't be used to galvanize us to look carefully at the way we talk about politics in the public arena then wtf are we doing? Afaic, this is the opportunity we get to stand back and think about who we are and what kind of culture we have. And maybe that means we should talk about gun control, or violent rhetoric, or whatever, but we should talk about something. Otherwise we're just waiting for the next horrible thing and then the next and then whatever until shit is just terrible. When that person attacked that abortion clinic the entire right-wing was like, "well, this isn't our fault. it's just a crazy person." and now they're gonna do the same. well, guess what? shooters tend to be crazy people. what does that have to do with being responsible?

--making this a gun control ish is also opportunistic politicizing imo, but i know i'm not in the ilx majority here.

someone getting shot is by definition a gun control ish

iatee otm. people in favor of gun control are concerned about dangerous people have easy access to guns. this was a dangerous person with easy access to guns!

having*

this whole thing is pissing me off in more ways than one.
1- that anyone could get shot in this way
2- that the incident will inevitably (nay already has) been politicized
3- that people are claiming that some 'goth type kid' did it, which is just totally ludicrous and fucking infuriating
4- that it takes an event like this to set off a gun control debate. dude was shot two blocks from me the other day, and within three houses of a friend's place. he's dead, but because it's Oakland and he was black, there's no debate. it's just something that happens.

Ramsier said Loughner hung out with a group of friends who wore trench coats and baggy pants and kept to themselves. Ramsier described them as "contrary."

and tbh, i'm not some anti-firearms type leftie. i'm actually pretty neutral on the issue.

Wait, did loughner shoot the judge first, or Giffords? The latest version of the NYT article says:

Ms. Giffords had just been talking to a couple about Medicare and reimbursements, when the gunman walked up and shot Judge Roll, Mr. Kimble said. He added that the judge walked up to Giffords and shouted "Hi," and then the shooting began.

re: my last point, it's more that i have no conception as to how people value 'life' in this country.

there's no way he knew who the judge was or that he would be at the event?

i mean i guess he could know who he was and know his face but still

J0rdan: i get what yr saying, but, for real, categorically pinning the blame on "political rhetoric" and not video games or a violent childhood or just str8 up delusion because this was a "political act" blithely ignores the nature of mental illness. like, wildly. i'm not going to render a diagnosis on this dude because i can't bring myself to watch those videos, but let's say he was schizophrenic---have you actually met or known or been close to someone who is schizophrenic? "political rhetoric" is just another fucking ~thing~ that may or may not be at play in their worldview. you really can't isolate it as the major player w/o grossly reducing how mental pathologies actually work.

anyway, Mordy, i'm with you: i'm all for a referendum on hideous political speech, i'm just very leery of the left trying to make what is, by all accounts, an ugly, stupid tragedy into a "political act." from where i'm standing, it wasn't. at all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36033690#36033690

about 2 mins in, she talks explicitly about the crosshairs thing. Wherever you stand in the above discussion, it's kind of chilling.

oops, already mentioned upthread.

This may not end up being a tea party type, but that violence will happen sooner or later. It's coming.

have you actually met or known or been close to someone who is schizophrenic?

regret this phrasing, sorry. pretty clearly subtexts a "well i have!" douchery that i didn't intend. only point being (even though y'all aren't on board with this apparently): an act may be political in that it targets political figures or has explicitly political motivations, but, IMO, all that is rendered moot when the supposedly political "actor" is seriously, tragically, mentally ill.

nb i'm not talking sociopathic, here. i'm talking delusional. timothy mcveigh, eg, was probably sociopathic, and thus willing to remorselessly act in a way that no 'sane' person would, even if they sympathized with him. this dude (like a lot of other public shooters), seems to have inhabited a worldview that no 'sane' person could even construct.

iatee otm. people in favor of gun control are concerned about dangerous people have easy access to guns. this was a dangerous person with easy access to guns!

― Mordy, Saturday, January 8, 2011 9:40 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark

I think we just solved the gun control issue... see, gun rights advocates thought people in favor of gun control were concerned about *any* people having easy access to guns, not just *dangerous* people... nobody want's dangerous people to have guns. now that that's all cleared up, let's pass some laws!

What's "tragic" is the shooting, not this fuckhead's mental illness. That Arizona basically lets anyone buy a semi-automatic handgun and conceal-carry it IS an issue, whether you don't want it to be or not.

gbx otm. i think most people will stay in their echo chambers. unless it turns out that the perp(s) were avid palin fans or something, the right isn't going to buy a causal link, and the left will take it on faith. with some exceptions of course.

it's possible that the guy just shot up the event because (for whatever incoherent "reasons") he wanted to kill a prominent person. or a prominent politician. -- and happened to live in giffords's district.

it may be that he was paying attention to the election when giffords (and others) was being vilified like every other democrat with a shaky chance of holding on to a congressional seat, and this set off, or redirected, a thought process that ended in today's massacre. maybe he had some imagined personal beef with her that had nothing to do with her politics. or it may be that he set out to kill the folks on palin's map.

will we ever know which of these things--or which combination--is true? i'm doubtful. loughner immediately reference his right not to incriminate himself. he probably won't have all that much to say. not to mention that if they put him on meds, as they probably should and will, he may not even be able to reconstruct the thought process that led to today.

I think we just solved the gun control issue... see, gun rights advocates thought people in favor of gun control were concerned about *any* people having easy access to guns, not just *dangerous* people... nobody want's dangerous people to have guns. now that that's all cleared up, let's pass some laws!

Seriously, dude?

palin has now deleted both the crosshairs map & this tweet

http://i.imgur.com/mGMts.png

just like we have no idea what rhetoric did/did not play into this attack, we also have no idea the level of dude's mental illnesses

I think we just solved the gun control issue... see, gun rights advocates thought people in favor of gun control were concerned about *any* people having easy access to guns, not just *dangerous* people... nobody want's dangerous people to have guns. now that that's all cleared up, let's pass some laws!

not going to happen.

palin on some 1984 shit with all this tweet deletin'

Obviously if there was a magical way to know who was going to commit a violent crime with a gun, and who wasn't, it would make gun control really easy. Just restrict those people from owning guns! Clearly the gun debate is about how we legislate in a world where we don't have that information. That's why Kerm's post is so wtf.

Lots of Republicans don't want Palin running for president. I wonder who the first is gonna be that asks whether she had anything to do with this.

most gop hopefuls are scared of palin (or, really, her base). they'll all be very nice to her in the primaries. so i don't expect a direct confrontation about it.

(or even before the primaries, i mean)

anyway, Mordy, i'm with you: i'm all for a referendum on hideous political speech, i'm just very leery of the left trying to make what is, by all accounts, an ugly, stupid tragedy into a "political act." from where i'm standing, it wasn't. at all.

― ullr saves (gbx), Saturday, January 8, 2011 9:49 PM (18 minutes ago)

i think you're sort of reacting against something that either doesn't exist or is sort of inevitable. guns are dangerous; gun control is a political issue only because people have differing opinions on the issue and controversial laws are sometimes made. i agree that singling out palin or whoever would be a little useless and incorrect, but it's not exactly in poor taste to use an incident in which people are killed by guns to have a wider debate about the role of guns in our society. if anything, it'd be irresponsible to neglect to do so

fwiw giffords wasn't exactly anti-gun or anything, not that it matters but i've seen a couple people insinuate otherwise

regret this phrasing, sorry. pretty clearly subtexts a "well i have!" douchery that i didn't intend. only point being (even though y'all aren't on board with this apparently): an act may be political in that it targets political figures or has explicitly political motivations, but, IMO, all that is rendered moot when the supposedly political "actor" is seriously, tragically, mentally ill.

if it turns out this guy loved sarah palin, then there is a political side to this. if it turns out he was batshit insane, then yes, there is a political side to how easy it is for batshit insane person to buy a gun and go on a massacre. if it's somewhere between the two, then yes, there's quite certainly a political side to this. whether or not he was a political actor only matters in how this is a political event, not whether it was.

xp to Daniel lots of Republicans have already been distancing themselves from her. Weigel has kinda been covering that beat for the last few weeks (and Sullivan)

i'm interested in this. i'll hunt down the weigel articles.

England, where no one has guns: 14 deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - whoo! I'm gettin' a stiffy! - 23,000 deaths from handguns. But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a comunist to make one. There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. . . . OK, though admittedly last year in England they had 23,000 deaths per soccer game. . . .

guys the NRA had a rally in Denver like three days after Columbine, this incident isn't going to effect change in gun-control policy whatsoever.

maybe, maybe not. remember james brady?

Daniel, here's maybe a link to start with (best thing I could find without devoting too much time to looking): http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/can-palin-win-ctd-2.html

anyway: http://www.ktar.com/category/local-news-articles/20110108/Uncle-says-niece,-%27typical%27-9~year~old,-among-victims/

for some reason this event has got be upset about the opportunism of even the nicest, most well-meaning people. i sort of doubt the person who posted this link to their facebook feed would have done so should this little girl have been shot and killed by someone who was being associated with the left.

shit, i'm going off the internet for 24 hours.

got ME upset...

btw it's not so much "opportunism" really as the fact that everything--even shows of grief, sympathy, whatever--is politicized.

and maybe inevitably...

ok going off the internet now.

thanks, man

(xp to mordy)

can we not use this thread to have another useless discussion about sarah palin's abilities to win elections

yeah i was about to say

well, that wasn't my intent

Basically anyone who is any position to know about the daily damage caused by easy gun control laws is against easy access to guns i.e. the police, big-city mayors. But who listens to them, they don't have enough Congressional oomph. Fuck this shit forever.

England, where no one has guns: 14 deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - whoo! I'm gettin' a stiffy! - 23,000 deaths from handguns. But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a comunist to make one. There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. . . . OK, though admittedly last year in England they had 23,000 deaths per soccer game. . . .

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Saturday, January 8, 2011 9:16 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

honest q (and one better suited for a gun control thread): how many of those 23k deaths are 2/2 handguns illegally obtained, how many are accidental (ie - kids), and how many are due to legally registered gun owners shooting ppl? my guess is that it's illegal>=accidents>>>>>>legal. but i haven't looked it up, so i'm genuinely curious to know!

the united states ~produces~ handguns, and supplies them to its law enforcement and volunteer armed services (as far as i know, the UK does not). if you think that outlawing them for private ownership while continuing production will staunch the flow of handguns to crime (organized or otherwise), you are delusional. if you think that outlawing them for private ownership will lower the death rate for ppl killed by guns lawfully obtained, you are not delusional, but you should probably think about outlawing cars and healthcare (100k/year!) first. if you think that outlawing them for private ownership will lower the accidental death rate, then you are 100% correct. but the rate at which ppl kill themselves with smoking, alcohol, reckless driving, etc., or are killed simply by dint of being poor so far outstrips the accidental shooting rate that singling it out seems like a misplaced priority.

NB - i don't think everyone (anyone!) should walk around strapped. i just think that "gun control" is an emotional issue, engaged at the expense of issues of structural violence that are much easier to ignore. again, i'm honestly curious TH, are the mayors/cops talking about "gun crime" in general, or legal access to handguns, specifically?

btw i realize it's tacky to get into gun stuff on this thread, point me in the right direction

The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

it's not tacky at all, someone got shot, guns are dangerous

smoking and alcohol are choices people make about their own bodies, so that seems pretty different.

if you think that outlawing them for private ownership while continuing production will staunch the flow of handguns to crime (organized or otherwise), you are delusional.

really?

you should probably think about outlawing cars and healthcare (100k/year!) first.

outlaw healthcare? i am not sure you're making sense. in any case, we're not talking about healthcare or cars here, we're talking about guns.

you think that outlawing them for private ownership will lower the accidental death rate, then you are 100% correct.

wooo!

i'm honestly curious TH, are the mayors/cops talking about "gun crime" in general, or legal access to handguns, specifically?

well i think it varies, but police and mayors are generally anti-handgun because of the number of violent crimes that get committed with them every year. setting aside the human tragedy of this, it takes up valuable police time.

but the rate at which ppl kill themselves with smoking, alcohol, reckless driving, etc., or are killed simply by dint of being poor so far outstrips the accidental shooting rate that singling it out seems like a misplaced priority.

we've had a national campaign against smoking for decades and it's produced results. we need a national campaign against reckless driving, absolutely. but calling 23,000 deaths a 'misplaced priority' is pretty callous. it's one of many priorities. cigarette smoking doesn't kill more people than car accidents - that doesn't mean we should stop caring about smoking deaths.

that 23,000 figure was pulled from Bill Hicks' ass btw (ew); i have no idea what the actual current figures are

his cold, dead ass

The majority of gun deaths are suicides btw.

haha yeah I was considering looking it up instead of just quoting you xp

where guns are made -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6294242.stm

and don't forget the birmingham "gun quarter"! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Quarter

and iatee:

More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.

enh, i mean its tacky for me to get all "hmmm lets talk about gun control in the abstract" when some several people got shot in the real.

xp cmon TH plz dont get snarky, i'm actually trying to reason through this. and yeah, "delusional" was strong, but i do think that part of what makes outlawing handguns impractical in the united states is that we MAKE them AND give them to cops. cops in the UK don't carry them! it's a chicken/egg thing (why carry them if the criminals don't have them), but it is a thing. i don't think it's crazy to assume that if a bunch of factories are pumping out handguns then those handguns will be diverted to illegal markets, and toted by the same ppl that are already using them.

and yeah, iatee, i anticipated that someone would call me on that---when i say misplaced priority, i don't mean that gun deaths are, like, inconsequential or a part of the natural order or w/e. i mean that the systemic processes that ~lead~ to gun deaths (or, say, knifing deaths in the UK) are more in need of redress than whether or not guns are even allowed to exist.

xxxxxxps dang

kerm is pro-gun btw lol

thx for the links TH! i count 5/12 of those companies as US. NB (srsly, note it well): the whole "we make guns and they trickle into illegal markets" is, perhaps erroneously, prima facie. it just sorta makes sense. i am happy to be proven wrong here.

kerm is pro-gun btw lol

― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Saturday, January 8, 2011 9:58 PM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_leftkrHJkw1qf8yek.gif

wait waht when did vandermeme happen

whoa didn't know the tobacco number was as huge as it is

xp i skimmed that other thread and was just trying to save ppl the time egaging with him, yeesh

yeah when i get called delusional i'm liable to SNARK OUT on you. i just fundamentally disagree with you there. the processes that lead to gun deaths are poverty and craziness, roughly in that order, and i don't see those going away any time soon.

and your arg about gun production seems a little off to me - if you reduce demand by outlawing handguns in all but a handful of circumstances, then production drops, period. to me it sounds like you're saying hey, it's not the GUNS' fault that people like gabrielle giffords get shot. they get produced! people have issues! whatcha gon do! and i'm saying actually it is totally the guns' fault.

anyway, if i can stake out a position: i'm not at all "pro gun" (i would never argue that concealed carry or liberalized gun laws would bring down crime rates, wtf), i'm just not "anti gun." they're just stupid things that can be used as poorly as anything else. and while i know that nabs made a really convincingly otm post about how they are ~designed~ to be deadly, and how that intent somehow suffuses their corporeal nature with malice, i really just think that they are objects.

xps sorry, TH, i didn't intend to call you specifically "delusional."

gbx your point is perfectly sound but even if hypothetically it were to "only" reduce accidental deaths (and idk i suppose make suicide a little tougher to stomach maybe), is this not worthwhile? I'm failing to see the harm/cost. obv it's but a piece of the puzzle

xps

"point" was referring to the production/diverting

they are just objects, sure. objects designed to kill people. people whose job is to kill other people should be allowed to have them. soldiers, for instance, or certain kinds of cops (in the UK, by the way, there are many policemen who are allowed to carry guns, even UZIs and shit. but they're a special group.) like, honestly i blame the gun more than i blame this crazy guy who killed a lot of people. he was crazy. he should have been identified as a risk earlier. the state - and possibly his family and friends, though who knows - has a responsibility here that it failed to meet. this will never get mentioned in any news report. but if handguns were less easy to come by, if handguns were like some radioactive shit that would provoke anonymous 911 calls, then this wouldn't have happened. he wouldn't have gotten beyond stab no. 2.

yeah pursuant to kevin k. it's like - what is the good that comes from handguns being available to non-state actors? what is the bad?

they're just stupid things that can be used as poorly as anything else.
― ullr saves (gbx), Sunday, January 9, 2011 4:06 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

Hard to use yogurt containers as poorly as machine guns imo.

i beg to differ

http://www2.alabamas13.com/mgmedia/image/630/394/97422/yogurt-cup-causes-squirrelly-antics-15280/

alright did you google that or had you been waiting like 2 years to use that in the perfect spot

lol i just deleted everything i wrote because j0rdan won

anyway, i was wrong, kitten w/the yogurt otm, everyone enjoy their saturday night

is that squirrel an avant garde guitar virtuoso?

as an american living abroad in a city with very strict gun-control laws, and who grew up in a city with one of the highest murder rates in the US (philly)*, I just fail to see how allowing people to own guns in any way brings a net good to society. I also think that any steps made towards gun control, even as small as just putting tighter restrictions on current gun ownership policies, brings about a net good and lays the groundwork for the hopeful future elimination of guns in society.

*my closest encounter was coming downstairs one morning to find a broken window and a bullet lodged in the wall of our living room

that tobacco vs. aids & alcohol & cars & suicides & murders stat seem totally false made up crap tbh.

i think the argument goes like this: if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have them.

(xp)

as opposed to now where criminals don't have them?

no, as opposed to now, when both criminals and lawful citizens have them.

or like ppl are gonna be busting down doors robbing the houses of innocent americans and we're gonna have to throw our shoes at the burglars to protect ourselves?

well what are the good vigilantes supposed to protect us with? we can't trust the police of course xxp

or like ppl are gonna be busting down doors robbing the houses of innocent americans and we're gonna have to throw our shoes at the burglars to protect ourselves?

that's what i'd have to do, since i don't -- and wouldn't -- have a gun in the home. but that is the pro-gun argument.

I find the tobacco statistic to be incredibly WTF. is anybody claiming that there are people out there being forced to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day against their will?

http://jonzerjackson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/smoking-monkey.jpg

but anyway i agree w/ dayo's posts

or like ppl are gonna be busting down doors robbing the houses of innocent americans and we're gonna have to throw our shoes at the burglars to protect ourselves?

IDK your fucking shotgun? I think everyone in this thread is basically only talking about handguns.

no I'm pretty fine w/ banning all guns

I KNEW IT!

no yeah i'm pretty sure most of us don't want guns at all

except this guy

can't make this shit up huh http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html

banning all guns is insane

like i am genuinely vexed by the handgun issue (TH has been convincing), but banning all guns entirely just seems so impossible and misguided

think she had a secretary named klebold too

xp

banning all guns is difficult culturally/constitutionally, but uh, not a particularly crazy idea for most developed countries

banning all guns is insane

like i am genuinely vexed by the handgun issue (TH has been convincing), but banning all guns entirely just seems so impossible and misguided

― ullr saves (gbx), Saturday, January 8, 2011 11:38 PM (41 seconds ago)

why? what are they good for exactly, besides killing people?

xp otm

i think the argument goes like this: if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have them.

(xp)

― Daniel, Esq., Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:28 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

btw from where i stand this argument does not have to go immediately to "therefore we should allow them so that the citizenry can be armed against crime." it's more that "outlawing guns won't substantially lower gun deaths due to crime since criminals will still have them, so maybe just focus on the root causes of crime." it's a question of how to direct our efforts and resources, but

i mean if last year showed us anything we've definitely got an unfortuantely long road ahead of us but yes, it's the goal xp

if arizona's governor is gonna have her police indiscriminately checking random citizens for certain items that may or may not be in their possession, i'd say guns over immigration papers

why? what are they good for exactly, besides killing people?

xp otm

― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:39 PM (54 seconds ago) Bookmark

killing deer, idiot

gbx if we banned all guns tomorrow do you really think all criminals would have as easy access to them in 2040 as they do today?

btw from where i stand this argument does not have to go immediately to "therefore we should allow them so that the citizenry can be armed against crime." it's more that "outlawing guns won't substantially lower gun deaths due to crime since criminals will still have them, so maybe just focus on the root causes of crime." it's a question of how to direct our efforts and resources, but

― ullr saves (gbx), Saturday, January 8, 2011 11:40 PM (9 seconds ago)

dude you know i love you, and i'm loving the way you're thinking here - yeah gun violence and violence in general is this contorted monster wrapped up in countless social/moral issues that requires a strong and multi-pronged effort, no doubt - but i'm just not getting how banning guns isn't a absolute positive, even if it's just part of the solution

What with Arizona keeping it legal to concealed-carry without a permit and personal statements in the gawker comments that commentators personally knew people at the event who were pro-gun and likely to be carrying, themselves...I think the details refute the oft-made claim that citizens lawfully carrying guns enables them to prevent criminal gun violence. It just happens too fast. This wasn't a prolonged shoot-out. The shooter kept going til he emptied his clip/ammo, and THEN was tackled by bystanders.

the thing i don't buy about the "criminals will still have guns!" thing is this: how many criminals are criminals that end up shooting people because they are killers and guns are more convenient than a baseball bat and how many criminals are criminals that become killers because they have easy access to guns & that's what happens when ppl have guns

any reduction in gun ownership/gun availability reduces the number of violent/criminal killings imo

killing animals? biathlon? zombies? i dunno. like, varmint rifles really aren't a scourge on the populace, arguing otherwise is a little o_O and irrational, nagl for ppl that would suppose themselves to be smart doods. again, and this may seem cynical, but for real, the argument for not banning ALL GUNS is again an issue of political expediency---the supposed public health gain from banning fucking shotguns would be statistically insignificant and the political fallout tremendous (which might be due to the inordinate power wielded by the NRA, but there it is)

xps

For the sake of response to that tobacco vs. aids & alcohol & cars & suicides & murders stat seem totally false made up crap tbh.: The Tobacco number is 400,000 something, which was beaten into me by a billboard I used to drive past all the time on Santa Monica Blvd off the 405 in LA (sponsored by the American Heart Association, American Lung Association, and American Cancer Society, not just some random people).

Per the CDC website, for 2007: 123,706 deaths per accidents (all of them, they don't specify, but it includes all the auto accidents plus like people falling off ladders) + 34,598 suicides + 18,361 homicides + 29,165 Chronic Liver Disease (let's assume they're all alcohol-related, even though they're not) + 18,089 deaths of people who had AIDS (including people who had AIDS but got like, hit by a bus, or killed themselves).

Tobacco crushes everything in the United States. Worldwide I think I remember AIDS, TB, and malaria each knock off about 1-2 million people per year, but I cannot for the life of me recall what the smoking number is.

killing deer, idiot

― J0rdan S., Saturday, January 8, 2011 11:41 PM (2 minutes ago)

guess i'm some crazy commie but i don't exactly see shooting deer as some irrevocable human right of private citizens

xps i'm talking about private ownership fwiw

lol i was jokin

http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/guns-democracy-and-freedom/insurrection-timeline

July 2, 2010—The Wyoming Department of Revenue suspends sales tax collections at the state's gun shows because of "increasing animosity" toward field tax agents....

ha aight xp

any reduction in gun ownership/gun availability reduces the number of violent/criminal killings imo

― J0rdan S., Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

sup

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

gbx, I don't think anyone here thinks that 'ban all guns' is a possibility in the next 50 years, it's a longer-term goal and something people on the left want to work towards slowly, like single-payer health care. that doesn't mean there isn't a good argument for it.

For the sake of response to that tobacco vs. aids & alcohol & cars & suicides & murders stat seem totally false made up crap tbh.: The Tobacco number is 400,000 something, which was beaten into me by a billboard I used to drive past all the time on Santa Monica Blvd off the 405 in LA (sponsored by the American Heart Association, American Lung Association, and American Cancer Society, not just some random people)

yeah, and i may be misremembering but i don't think this even accounts for secondhand smoke

imo the conceal & carry laws are bullshit, but we obv live in a country that was founded on a right to bear arms & thats not changing, fighting as if we'll ever repeal guns altogether is total tilting at windmills shit.

gbx as a brit i feel compelled to question your source

basically i think u have to work towards containment of guns in the most destructive ways, i.e. conceal & carry is a horrible law

not that ad hominem is a thing of mine, just saying (xp)

While the UK ranks above South Africa for all violent crime, South Africans suffer more than 20,000 murders each year - compared with Britain's 921 in 2007.

all this talk about taking away guns is just giving the conservatives more ammunition

well, not as much ammunition as the people giving conservatives literal ammunition

in other words i side more w/ gbx i guess. gun culture is a culture in huge parts of america. aint goin nowhere.

nev mind that gun control has often actually been used as a method of controlling/terrorizing populace in this country as recently as 30 yrs ago -- the gun control laws in chicago werent about crime, they were about black panthers iirc

Laurel fyi he did not empty his magazine. The sheriff said he was tackled with a couple rounds still in the magazine, and speculated that he intended to kill himself

C-L the CDC says the smoking number worldwide is 10 million per year.. and that on average the smoking-related death shortened the lifespan by 12 years.

Back to gbx's root causes statement... most gun homicides are youths with criminal records killing other youths with criminal records. Wonder how many of those "criminal records" are petty drug related stuff? People who aren't desperately poor and disadvantaged are *excruciatingly unlikely* to murder anybody by any means.

(i mean, they were also about crime. they were about a phantom 'criminal' -- but they were also about controlling certain populations)

my gun joke just backfired

*I think that 12 year figure was the average for US deaths.

see, iatee, the thing is that i see universal health care as a pretty fucking urgent, needs to happen soon sorta ish, and one that will dramatically overhaul the public well-being. whereas i, personally, think that gun control is about as urgent (politically) as deprecating the interstate system and outlawing tobacco. neat ideas, but not worth all the hand-wringing.

xp

Back to gbx's root causes statement... most gun homicides are youths with criminal records killing other youths with criminal records. Wonder how many of those "criminal records" are petty drug related stuff? People who aren't desperately poor and disadvantaged are *excruciatingly unlikely* to murder anybody by any means.

― Kerm, Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:54 PM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark

drug crime but also crimes of passion -- basically, abusers/wife beaters / cheaters etc -- i think its fair to say if ppl had fewer guns this would be reduced -- but kind of bside the point because as i said theyre not going anywhere

deej it doesn't exactly jibe to read your arguments going "eh, gun ownership, what can we do?" itt w/ your views that ppl should spend years trying to change govt from w/in via our political parties

i'm not denying that it's not easy to do (and the supreme court isn't exactly helping either, the assholes) - i'm trying to get one of you to either agree or disagree that banning guns, if it were possible tomorrow, would be a good thing

xps

I was just going by this account: "When the gunman apparently ran out of ammunition he attempted to flee, but a member of Giffords' staff tackled him."

btw fwiw everyone should read "Giving up the Gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543–1879" by Noel Perrin

it is ostensibly about guns, but it is secretly about nukes (which should absolutely be abolished since they can you know kill really a lot of ppl at the same time)

see, iatee, the thing is that i see universal health care as a pretty fucking urgent, needs to happen soon sorta ish, and one that will dramatically overhaul the public well-being. whereas i, personally, think that gun control is about as urgent (politically) as deprecating the interstate system and outlawing tobacco. neat ideas, but not worth all the hand-wringing.

I agree, and if I had to choose 'single payer health care' or 'ban all guns' I'd go for the first, but that's not how things work, we have to slowly move public opinion / adjust to the national situation / play politics. the media is going to be talking about guns for the next few weeks, not health care, which means this is an opportunity to make some small strides on this subject and not on health care. it sucks that people dying is an 'opportunity to make some small strides' but that's the reality of the subject 'what should we do about the tool that makes people die?'

deej it doesn't exactly jibe to read your arguments going "eh, gun ownership, what can we do?" itt w/ your views that ppl should spend years trying to change govt from w/in via our political parties

― J0rdan S., Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:58 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think it totally does -- something things are more realistic to change than others

basically, what gbx said

Iatee, if you're trying to ban guns because they kill people, you actually need people to die to justify banning them, right? If the homicide-by-gun rate dropped significantly for other reasons, would you want to ban guns anyway?

removal of all guns is a lofty but worthy target to shoot for

iatee otm about changing peoples long term perceptions wrt guns; okay total gun outlawing is def politically impossible within the next 5, 10, 20 years for sure; but these things do change over time and it doesnt make it less unreasonable to at least promote it

Iatee, if you're trying to ban guns because they kill people, you actually need people to die to justify banning them, right? If the homicide-by-gun rate dropped significantly for other reasons, would you want to ban guns anyway?

― Kerm, Sunday, January 9, 2011 12:07 AM (1 minute ago)

imo yes duh - unless guns somehow someday have uses other than killing people

you can kill animals with them too

thanks

Iatee, if you're trying to ban guns because they kill people, you actually need people to die to justify banning them, right? If the homicide-by-gun rate dropped significantly for other reasons, would you want to ban guns anyway?

sure if homicide-by-gun rate suddenly dropped to zero, then yeah, I'd change my mind

you know, the number one question I get asked by my students when they find out I'm American is if people there all own and carry guns, and how crazy it is that they are allowed to do so. it's worth considering the fact that to people who have not been acculturated to gun control but who otherwise live in developed countries, the idea of private gun ownership is completely batshit fucking insane.

yeah but they h8 freedom, next question

not sure if this has been mentioned but its looking like based on his online trail this guy is prob a left wing nut not a pailin/beck fan - obvs left and right intersect at weirdo conspiracy shit if you go far enough around tho

it's worth considering the fact that to people who have not been acculturated to gun control but who otherwise live in developed countries, the idea of private gun ownership is completely batshit fucking insane

100%. Gun ownership has never been prevalent here and the idea of it happening is just completely beyond the pale. Even conservatives oppose widespread gun ownership here.

seemed like he was an anti-gov't nut, neither left nor right per se.

yeah but they h8 freedom, next question

that's true, in fact I rob their houses daily just to show them what they're missing out on

well people usually come at it from a certain direction as they radicalize - seems like he maybe didnt go through the beck/palin et al school of crazy is alls im saying

yeah that seems right (at the moment, at least; lots we don't know yet)

NY Times reports that they're looking for an accomplice, a guy in his 50s. Also that Loughner is invoking the 5th. Apparently, he was kicked out of his community college for multiple conduct violations that involved campus police.

that's true, in fact I rob their houses daily just to show them what they're missing out on

― dayo, Sunday, January 9, 2011 12:31 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

god bless u

really? that would change the picture significantly. a non-political, just bats--t crazy person would be far more likely to act alone (there are lots of bats--t crazy people, but i usually think of them as each having their own individual bats--t crazy muse).

gun control debates trigger so much emotion.

i <3 you latebloomer... shoot me an e-mail sometime, this thread is too rapid-fire for a decent conversation...

latebloomer really misfiring itt

he's from south carolina, cut him some slack

we have very lax pun control laws

thanks, kate, for mentioning the nyt's coverage, which i hadn't reviewed until now. seems comprehensive.

i think it's way too early to draw this conclusion (and it certainly isn't what i thought would happen), but this passage is interesting:

Not since the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 has an event generated as much attention as to whether extremism, antigovernment sentiment and even simple political passion at both ends of the ideological spectrum have created a climate promoting violence. The fallout seemed to hold the potential to upend the effort by Republicans to keep their agenda front and center in the new Congress and to alter the political narrative in other ways.

uh

http://www.cnn.com/

site must be getting hammered

jeez

either that or it's like 1994 again

what's going on at cnn

AP reporting that he was rejected for military service.

what's going on at cnn

― dayo, Sunday, January 9, 2011 12:52 AM

site's having trouble loading

No trouble for me, but I'm getting the US page via the international feed so

Hot topics >>

OK
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

CORRECTION
On Saturday, CNN showed a photo of a man in a football stadium believed to be Jared Lee Loughner, who is accused of shooting 18 people at a Tucson, Arizona political event. It was not him. CNN regrets the error.

Whoopsie.

Guy probably is a killer too

Finding OK funny. I must be tired.

Clicking reload a bunch of times seems to help occasionally on cnn.com

not sure if this was posted already but some scary shit in this report

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?hp

Don Coorough, 58, who sat two desks in front of Mr. Loughner in a poetry class last semester, described him as a “troubled young man” and “emotionally underdeveloped.” After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”

“No one in that class would even sit next to him,” Mr. Coorough said. Another fellow student said that he found Mr. Loughner’s behavior so eccentric — including inappropriate remarks and unusual outbursts — that he wondered if he might be on hallucinogens.

just read that, too. yeah, scary.

also, interesting piece by matt lai, suggesting that this event will be a tipping point for discourse in the country (but unsure of which way we'll tip).

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/the-cloudy-logic-of-political-shootings/69147/

dunno if i'm repeating the consensus here but my basic feeling is that this is about 1/10 real political intent and 9/10 mental illness. tho with the right these days it's a fuzzy area

the two things that upset me most about this were A) the dead 9-year-old girl who was born on sept. 11 2001 and B) that in a twist on the "perpetrator of act of major public violence kept diaries that reveal he was genuinely schizophrenic and slipping" thing, said diaries are myspace posts that showed up on all his friends' feeds and people just kinda thought "huh" and assumed one of the hundred other people would take an interest

the fact that this guy is using the word 'terrorist' so much does seem to indicate he's been influences by current political discourse on at least some level

After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”

now where have i heard this before

yeah. i mean, he's crazy, and you can jump on the apparent fact that, at one point in his life, he seemed "leftist." but the things i've been reading tonight certainly seem like they tilt toward a tea-party supporter, or maybe a radical libertarian.

Late to the game / beating a dead horse:

I grew up in place where basically everyone owned guns and hunting is a huge deal. In 6th grade everyone had a rifle safety class at a week-long camp trip. My wife had to pass hunter's safety in elementary school. First day of firearm deer season (a separate thing from archery deer season and black powder deer season) was a school holiday in a lot of nearby places, and kids who bagged deer got their accomplishment read over the PA during daily announcements. A deer was often a couple of months of relatively cheap protein for families who were chronically underemployed in a very economically depressed area - the county next to the one I grew up in currently has something like a 20% unemployment rate. There is also basically zero gun violence and accidents are so rare that I only remember every hearing about one, when a guy in my class shot his younger brother in a hunting accident and left him a quadriplegic.

Of course handguns aren't useful for hunting, but people don't realize or want to admit that shooting handguns can be fun, just like any hobby involving cool equipment like guitars, bikes, and computers but with the added bonus of blowing shit up. There's a huge appeal to fetishized dangerous objects that are totally unnecessary, just like muscle cars, harleys, etc. Guns are tools as well as toys.

To these people banning guns is like telling them they can no longer use kitchen knives or cars because some people die from them or they can be used to kill people. Of course guns are used for murders way more than these other things but it's an abstract, remote "other" who dies from this and it's really not their concern. It's just a totally different mindset, one that's deeply ingrained and isn't ever going to vanish completely.

The problem is that in general these types of folks - white, older, rural - are stereotypically distrustful of government intervention and folks in big cities telling them how to live their lives when they have nothing in common. The NRA exploits and politicizes this and benefits from huge base of dues-paying members who worry that their toys/tools are going to be taken away, and the fact that low population rural states with a lot of these people around get as many senators as places like NY and California which is politically expedient, plus they're lucky enough to have the second amendment staving off a lot of intervention. There's also the massive cowboy/hero appeal that someday you just might be able to save yourself, your family, or a roomful of strangers by fending off a violent criminal with your gun - every issue of American Rifleman that my grandpa used to get has a section in the front with news items about armed citizens killing burglars and muggers.

Guns should be harder to get, should require more training to own, should be traceable, and illegal possession should be a much bigger crime than it is. But the idea that a bunch of "others" - liberal coastal big city dwellers who have never seen a gun outside of a policeman's holster - are telling them how to live their lives is so completely distasteful that they'll do whatever it takes to keep them, which delivers votes for pro-gun candidates who get money from the NRA. And since this keeps guns available and manufacturers making them, there will always be shady people willing to sell them to people without caring what they'll be used for, just like any other self-interested profitable transaction.

I don't know what the answer is or how this is ever going to change. Like gbx, I'm not "pro gun" necessarily (I don't own any guns, as I have no reason to do so or fears that I need to), but I can never be "anti-gun" because I know lots of decent, law-abiding, non-paranoid, non-reactionary, people who have longstanding legitimate reasons to own them.

wtf america :(

I really don't care about "the culture of guns" in other parts of America, ie the mainland. "A WELL-REGULATED MILITIA' = YOUR CULTURE IS OVAH.

Don't worry, the big "he's not like us, he was a smart antisocial loner weirdo goth metal black clothes bla bla bla" thing that always happens is bound to come up any minute now.

joygoat, with the deepest sincerity: thank you so much for that post

aside from the nabisco-style "oh good someone already said at length what i thought about saying in my own less articulate abbreviated way," that is just a fantastic fucking post from a perspective that you don't really see on ilx, and it's one that i happen to share. so thanks.

yeah. i mean, he's crazy, and you can jump on the apparent fact that, at one point in his life, he seemed "leftist." but the things i've been reading tonight certainly seem like they tilt toward a tea-party supporter, or maybe a radical libertarian. batshit crazy dude str8 up.

That's the one thing that I does hope eventually gets focused on, is that much like with the Columbine fuckheads, nothing caused this horrible thing so much as mental illness.

It's like something Chris Rock talked about 11 years ago, in response to speculation on their media consumption: "'What music did they listen to?' WHO CARES?! What music did Hitler listen to? What was on his CD player?!"

But it won't because I think there are too many fuckheads now out there searching for anything they can use to clobber those they resent so much politically. The mental issues will never be addressed and it'll be just another kulturkampf bit quickly cast aside until the next shooting happens, when the cycle will repeat.

This sounds depressing, but I really think we're not out of the Age of Stupid yet, and we're deeply fucked for several more years.

Are you anticipating an end to the Age of Stupid?

That seems a touch optimistic to me.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/09/20110109daniel-hernandez-gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting.html

Daniel Hernandez, intern, stays by Gabrielle Giffords' side
UA student pulls her into lap, holds head to stop bleeding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens#History a brief history of the Age of Stupid

Let's just say that we're in an Age of Particularly Amplified Stupid, to differentiate it from before

It'll get worse.

I'm late to this because I needed time to deal with all of this on my own....all these people dead at the hands of a young guy who was mentally ill, it just seems like we don't take care of each other and I get so scared of how much worse this can get with the economic situation, social stratification, black hat/white hat conversations...I just don't know where it is all going

Joygoat's perspective: so, so necessary. Welcome, and needed. And Aimless made a really great post unthread about living through the assassinations and civil unrest of the 60's....I haven't stopped thinking about that, and just, thanks.

I dunno where I am at with all of this...sure angry, but jmaybe not even that...maybe just deeply fucking worried and maybe afraid. but then hey, aren't we all.

Not doubting that a bit.

I keep remember back to how in the various series of Star Trek, they always went on and on about the torrential shit that was the world in the early-mid 21st Century, and how people eventually survived all that and grew into something greater. Well, the first part of that prediction came true and we're stuck in the beginning years of the shit.

xp, natch

The thing I get stuck on is as bad as this feels now, what will this mean in 10, 20..however many years. It keeps me awake

posting this in full because FUCK reg-sites:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09bai.html

January 8, 2011
A Turning Point in the Discourse, but in Which Direction?
By MATT BAI

WASHINGTON — Within minutes of the first reports Saturday that Representative Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, and a score of people with her had been shot in Tucson, pages began disappearing from the Web. One was Sarah Palin’s infamous “cross hairs” map from last year, which showed a series of contested Congressional districts, including Ms. Giffords’s, with gun targets trained on them. Another was from Daily Kos, the liberal blog, where one of the congresswoman’s apparently liberal constituents declared her “dead to me” after Ms. Giffords voted against Nancy Pelosi in House leadership elections last week.

Odds are pretty good that neither of these — nor any other isolated bit of imagery — had much to do with the shooting in Tucson. But scrubbing them from the Internet couldn’t erase all evidence of the rhetorical recklessness that permeates our political moment. The question is whether Saturday’s shooting marks the logical end point of such a moment — or rather the beginning of a terrifying new one.

Modern America has endured such moments before. The intense ideological clashes of the 1960s, which centered on Communism and civil rights and Vietnam, were marked by a series of assassinations that changed the course of American history, carried out against a televised backdrop of urban riots and self-immolating war protesters. During the culture wars of the 1990s, fought over issues like gun rights and abortion, right-wing extremists killed 168 people in Oklahoma City and terrorized hundreds of others in Atlanta’s Centennial Olympic Park and at abortion clinics in the South.

What’s different about this moment is the emergence of a political culture — on blogs and Twitter and cable television — that so loudly and readily reinforces the dark visions of political extremists, often for profit or political gain. It wasn’t clear Saturday whether the alleged shooter in Tucson was motivated by any real political philosophy or by voices in his head, or perhaps by both. But it’s hard not to think he was at least partly influenced by a debate that often seems to conflate philosophical disagreement with some kind of political Armageddon.

The problem here doesn’t lie with the activists like most of those who populate the Tea Parties, ordinary citizens who are doing what citizens are supposed to do — engaging in a conversation about the direction of the country. Rather, the problem would seem to rest with the political leaders who pander to the margins of the margins, employing whatever words seem likely to win them contributions or TV time, with little regard for the consequences.

Consider the comments of Sharron Angle, the Tea Party favorite who unsuccessfully ran against Harry Reid for the Senate in Nevada last year. She talked about “domestic enemies” in the Congress and said, “I hope we’re not getting to Second Amendment remedies.” Then there’s Rick Barber, a Republican who lost his primary in a Congressional race in Alabama, but not before airing an ad in which someone dressed as George Washington listened to an attack on the Obama agenda and gravely proclaimed, “Gather your armies.”

In fact, much of the message among Republicans last year, as they sought to exploit the Tea Party phenomenon, centered — like the Tea Party moniker itself — on this imagery of armed revolution. Popular spokespeople like Ms. Palin routinely drop words like “tyranny” and “socialism” when describing the president and his allies, as if blind to the idea that Americans legitimately faced with either enemy would almost certainly take up arms.

It’s not that such leaders are necessarily trying to incite violence or hysteria; in fact, they’re not. It’s more that they are so caught up in a culture of hyperbole, so amused with their own verbal flourishes and the ensuing applause, that — like the bloggers and TV hosts to which they cater — they seem to lose their hold on the power of words.

On Saturday, for instance, Michael Steele, the Republican Party chairman, was among the first to issue a statement saying he was “shocked and horrified” by the Arizona shooting, and no doubt he was. But it was Mr. Steele who, last March, said he hoped to send Speaker Nancy Pelosi to the “firing line.”

Mr. Steele didn’t mean this the way it sounded, of course; he was talking about “firing” in the pink slip sense of the word. But his carelessly constructed, made-for-television rhetoric reinforced the dominant imagery of the moment — a portrayal of 21st-century Washington as being like 18th-century Lexington and Concord, an occupied country on the verge of armed rebellion.

Contrast that with one of John McCain’s finer moments as a presidential candidate in 2008, when a woman at a Minnesota town hall meeting asserted that Mr. Obama was a closeted Arab. “No, ma’am, he’s not,” Mr. McCain quickly replied, taking back the microphone. “He’s a decent family man, citizen, that I just happen to have disagreements with.” Mr. McCain was harking back to a different moment in American politics, in which such disagreements could be intense without becoming existential clashes in which the freedom of the country was at stake.

None of this began last year, or even with Mr. Obama or with the Tea Party; there were constant intimations during George W. Bush’s presidency that he was a modern Hitler or the devious designer of an attack on the World Trade Center, a man whose very existence threatened the most cherished American ideals.

The more pressing question, though, is where this all ends — whether we will begin to re-evaluate the piercing pitch of our political debate in the wake of Saturday’s shooting, or whether we are hurtling unstoppably into a frightening period more like the late 1960s.

The country labors still to recover from the memories of Dealey Plaza and the Ambassador Hotel, of Memphis and Birmingham and Watts. Tucson will either be the tragedy that brought us back from the brink, or the first in a series of gruesome memories to come.

The thing I get stuck on is as bad as this feels now, what will this mean in 10, 20..however many years. It keeps me awake

I don't know. On the one hand, I'm kinda glad I don't have children to have to freak out about protecting thru all this shit(political, economic, social, take yer pick). I only have to worry about me surviving, and hey, people always need a guy who can fix shit and make their gear work.

On the other hand, not having the supportive emotional base of a wife & kids makes me all the lonelier.

and then sometimes you just have to distract yourself with the finer things just to get thru it all

http://i.imgur.com/cCivM.png

This is just trolling, right? Right?

Poe's Law.

But the "health care reformer" bit is the guy tipping his hand a bit too much.

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal01/2011/1/8/20/enhanced-buzz-15526-1294537356-5.jpg

http://globalgrind.com/channel/news/content/1899842/jared-lee-loughner-first-photos-of-the-alleged-shooter-of-congresswoman-giffords/?sspcid=3361567#slideshow

http://i53.tinypic.com/35mgks5.png

See, told you they were dangerous. Ban books.

Also, this helped provide some solace for today.

OTM. ^ twelve million views!

i was wondering if there were people that actually said "pro gay"

Frightening, can't tell trolls from real people anymore.

Yeah what's 'pro-gay' exactly? There's normal people and there's bigots.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law

Yeah what's 'pro-gay' exactly? There's normal people and there's bigots.

― Suppositori Spelling (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, January 9, 2011 10:10 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

i wish everything were as simple as you make it seem to be in australia

I hate to shatter your sunshine view of Australia but it's fucking dire here.

i am pro-gay

procregayting

apologies to kingfish - I missed your poe's law mention there.

I don't know. On the one hand, I'm kinda glad I don't have children to have to freak out about protecting thru all this shit(political, economic, social, take yer pick). I only have to worry about me surviving, and hey, people always need a guy who can fix shit and make their gear work.

Freaking the hell out about my wife and kids. Don't want to let them out of my sights. We're pretty safety-conscious and wouldn't attend a political event anyway, out of fear of exactly this kind of thing happening. We had the option of free lodging ON the national mall for the Obama inauguration and our shared opinion was "fuck all that". Nothing bad happened, obviously, but still.

But then like, I got all freaked out going grocery shopping this morning, so like there's a certain aspect of "there's absolutely nothing you can fucking do to make yourself safe.

The revive of the Michael Dahlquist R.I.P. thread this week has had me all white-knuckled every time I get behind the wheel.

The world's a very scary to me these days.

I hope Rep. Gifford pulls through. : (

Yeah I hope she makes it back to the world in any sort of decent position.

Fuck this discussion though. 9 year olds get shot because there are guns to shoot them with. Ban the whole fucking lot, then go from there. Fuck a 2nd amendment written with a quill, before fucking electricity. It was stupid then, it's beyond fucking stupid now. There may be some people who have guns who aren't lunatics or criminals but they will just have to live without having a weapon just in case they one day decide to become a lunatic and/or a criminal. Trying to rationalise the ownership of something where the sole purpose is to kill or hurt will never get you anywhere.

Poor fucking girl, and I feel terrible being too atheist to pray for her family.

Makeshift weapons should be good enough for decent folk.

Yeah, in the past month the Britisher press has been up in arms about a dude with a crossbow and a sockpuppet murderer. Although between them they killed less than this unimaginative bag of dildos.

On the money. Yeah, big-city elites are going to tell you your cool-ass handguns are illegal. Boo. Fucking. Hoo.