the buffy season six thread (WARNING SPOILERS!!)

oh and having not read anything about buffy online for ages for fear of SPOILERS; what should i be reading? where's the best discussion? what about decent fanfic??

sarah to thread!

The great/crappy ratio reminds me somewhat of Season 4 - without a really strong overarching narrative the show branches out more, and because of that inevitably hits a few false notes. Of course for me the only season that did consistently brilliant things from episode to episode was Season 3. That doesn't change the fact that it's my favourite show.

Tara's dying was sad, but the way it has been overblown by the kitten jihad is a bit pathetic. They claim to be feminists, but they look more lame-o than Star Trek fans to get so hysterical about it all. Real riot grrls would just sneer at Joss Whedon and get on with writing their own show, instead continually crying about how unfair it is. This is not a popular opinion but it is mine.

the thing the annoyed me about tara dying was that she was finally a central character and finally likeable; also it did seem excessively cruel given that she + willow had got back together (and surely willow's reaction could have been just the same without that reconciliation?).

Thank you, though.

Sorry! I didn't read them, I only read about them, and thought they could be mildly diverting...

There's been a lot of essays on salon.com lately about Buffy, oh, and Television Without Pity is a good site for funny entertaining synopsis on Buffy and many other shows...

best episode was the buffy in mental institution, but the musical was surprisingly good too.

buffy ripping off warrens skin was shocking and good, spike was good still, but the on-off buffy-spike
thing did get tiring, i wanted him to stand up a bit more, he got a bit too wimpy

xander has got more annoying with each series, and i liked him at the beginning, but so
sanctimonious and pompous by now, i was glad when spike slept with anya, totally!

the magic=drug thing didnt really work for me, or perhaps it would have a little if it hadnt been
so overplayed, and the power to destroy the world thing at the end, i think that was too much,
overplayed again

im glad jonathan got away, i liked how they made him likeable, and at one point i wondered if
he was going to join the scoobies in some way, though of course then he would have been less likeable.

i think it was all good, but the goodness/giles/willow/magic/drug thing was a bit too wholesome

the mental institution one was so good though

onto season 7 for me now...

such as?!

i liked season 5 a lot more than i thought i would. particularly dawn, who i was really worried about--i thought her introduction was pretty brilliant and i ended up liking her character a lot. i think crucial to this is the death of joyce summers--giving dawn a really intense emotional experience to go through (and one that questioned her relationship with the other characters) gave her a lot more dimension.

season 6 was definitely pretty difficult in a lot of ways, but i loved how tortured and emotionally unhealthy everybody was. the end of the season was a brilliant brilliant turn--the reveal of willow as the villain was amazing (even if i wasn't so nuts about the magic/drugs stuff).

[SEASON 7 SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T SEEN IT]:

season 7, which i finished last night, was a big disappointment. i liked that they took a lot of risks with it (like introducing 20 or so new characters, holy shit!) but i had a lot of problems as well.

one thing i've always really admired about buffy (and i guess by extension whedon, who i think is an amazing tv writer who usually understands the genre and medium he is working in so well) is its internal consistency: the show never forgets. in that one episode (season 3? 4? don't remember) when we see the "alternate universe" sunnydale, sans buffy, who's running the show? the master, of course, the big baddie from season 1.

in the case of season 7 i found the show got a lot more forgetful. there was a lot set up (like fake joyce telling dawn "buffy will choose someone else," a statement ambiguous enough that even though it was the first who said it you expected there to be some truth to it) that was never resolved. introducing caleb right at the end of the season was also a huge mistake; buffy had to deal with him right up until the second-last episode, leaving only one to wrap everything up! i thought the whole mystical-axe/"last suprise" thing was great in concept (the super-slayification of all the potentials) but why was the first defeated by a mysterious amulet that just came out of nowhere, unexplained? why have TWO magical deus ex machina plot devices in the same room? i was also pissed that they gave more time to the principal's wounds than onya's entire death scene! wtf? the angel drop-in was kinda funny but such a blatant guest spot that it was lame. the series ender had nowhere near the emotional impact of most of the regular season finales (like 2, 6, or 3 for instance).

I don't know if the story to the Buffy PS2 game was seriously considered for the show but I much prefer it to season 7.

I'm not sure what in hell the writers found so damn amusing about Jonathan, but he diverted all the attention from Xander, therefore = dud. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the whole damn season seemed to take place at Buffy's house. It felt like one of those shows where the main cast member has left, but they were all still there. (Also, shame no Seth Green showing, but understandable.)

This will probably just show me up as the sad fanboy that I am, but S1ocki did you notice that the same actor plays both flashback-William's love interest Cecily and vengeance demon Halfrek? And that when Halfrek shows up during S6 she and Spike recognize each other and call each other by their human names?

I'm not sure what in hell the writers found so damn amusing about Jonathan, but he diverted all the attention from Xander, therefore = dud. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the whole damn season seemed to take place at Buffy's house. It felt like one of those shows where the main cast member has left, but they were all still there. (Also, shame no Seth Green showing, but understandable.)

(i assume you mean not jonathan but the other guy?) i found that guy pretty funny, but you're otm about the buffy's house stuff (if we're still talking season 7). it was so weird how the early stuff really set the high school up as the central location--and so perfectly, it made so much sense to return there for the final season--and then it's all living room/backyard/basement.

HBO and USA are the only networks making good, creative television, even their duds (K Street ... ) are miles better than the crap the other networks hide behind.

I think a lot of Buffy fans would dig Wonderfalls, on FOX.

Just wait until The Wire is on DVD - it's even better ...

David Simon, who wrote the original Homicide book (a true crime classic), co-created the show, and you see a lot of secondary actors crop up. But more importantly, The Wire feels like the show that Homicide could have been with no commercial restraints. Everything gets pushed farther, like showing instead of telling, avoiding easy exposition, forcing the audience to make its mind up about the characters and get immersed in what's going on. It has a lot of the authenticity, but the grey moral areas actually make Homicide look sentimental - it's hard to watch Ned Beatty get on Richard Belzer's ass about avenging the dead after you watch the detectives on the Wire dodge every case they can to keep their numbers up. I'm a huge fan of Homicide, and it definitely stands the test of time, but it's exciting to see the Wire as something that can take all those themes and ideas several steps farther.

Also interesting, the two crime writers who are closest to what the Wire's doing - Richard Price (Clockers, which is a heavy influence on the first season) and Dennis Lehane (Mystic River) - both signed on to write episodes in the next season.

Except that all those shows have people who, whether or not they say it, torture themselves over morality and God? I'll have to think about it.

All the 'dud' episodes mentioned from S2 are great - the fish and the mummy and everything. Did the people who dislike them come to the show later on?

The exact provenance of the amulet at the end (and the possibility that it was meant to be Angel instead of Spike) is a question that's getting at least lip service on recent episodes of Angel.

[SEASON 7 SPOILER END]

that said, however, it's pretty amazing to me that this show which had the amazing virtue of constantly evolving, of always being in flux--plotwise, characterwise, etc--that you can still go back to season 1 or 2 and find it so developed already, the same show basically in tone, logic, and sense of humour.

On a +ve side, I thought S5 totally rocked, I can't understand the problem.

Also: seeing as we're obviously all Whedon nerds here (nothing wrong with that), anyone catch -- and can recommend -- Firefly?

and yeah, giles leaving was a major blow (his return in the s6 finale was SO WICKED tho)

Better action, too - the vampire/demon v. Angel/Buffy fights are boring. Nothing interesting happens, rarely is a plot point advanced, none of the main characters are endangered (unless it's a season finale). Firefly had some sense of placing the characters in danger (if not usually fatal).

S5 and S6 weren't complete losses - but after S3 nothing was handled well overall. The acting got worse, entire episodes would be spent around nothing happening (S7 was the worst). The early seasons found middle ground between moving too fast and just pissing away time. And I guess the pace was meant to provide more room for character development (or whatever), but most of the time the characters felt more natural moving fast and doing some give-and-take, you didn't need big pauses and spaces for them (and the acting wasn't up to that anyway). (Best part of S7 - the vampire psych major.)

The weakest link was Dr. and Willow-as-mechanic's relationship.

Morally conflicted, not very techie at all, actually fighting against the 'Federation', nothing was clean, the relationships had some dimension to them.

(Really, anyone who likes Whedon should give the DVDs a chance. I didn't care much for the show when it aired, but in the correct running order and with some extra episodes it gets better)

I guess this is where we part ways because I think Buffy was excellent at wringing all sorts of unexpected stuff from very ham-handed acting in overly grand straight-faced melodramatic situations. I like that conflict, whereas trading one liners with killer ventriloquist's dummies is fun but not at all compelling to watch more than once.

It would help if you gave examples of "not much happening." Would you consider the memory loss episode from S6 to be one of these? It didn't advance the plot much (at least not until the last few minutes, which were preordained anyway), but this stasis was the whole point: a last chance to reimagine new and intense connections between the characters, to bump up the poignancy of their partings. I'm trying to imagine an episode from the first two seasons which mixed humor and sadness as well as this, and I can't: it's always either/or.

I still think that pampering the space hooker was a cop-out, though. Whedon can't show a woman being abused or denigrated - which is great, and sorely missed! - so he sets up the obligatory frontier hooker as a trained professional who chooses her clients, knows how to fight, lives in geisha-like luxury and doesn't catch diseases. Lame.

Bringing back Faith gave the series some kick at the end, the show really hurt from Buffy's dead-fish routine (and being a terrible actress).

Angel 4 (the tightest story arc of 'em all - the very first and last scenes match! How can you beat that?)
Buffy 2
Angel 2
Buffy 3
Buffy 1 (funny)
Angel 3 (great story, some flawed execution)
Buffy 4
Angel 5 (assuming it stays as good as it just became)
Buffy 5
Angel 1 (the last third saves it)
Buffy 6
Buffy 7 (inexcusable)

faith/mayor
angel/spike/drusilla
willow
the first (with reservations)
glory
master
adam

also what is good at all about the master?

They didn't start getting standalone right until maybe late 3 (with the Vamp Willow ep).

The Master wasn't that great unto himself, but the way he was just a blank slate/setup for the adventures was good - and it led up to the S2 opener (Torturer Buffy, yay).

The eternal-Mayor was goofy, but that plot got played with a straight face.

I think the episode where Warren raped and killed his ex-girlfriend was extremely creepy and disturbing -- it was hard to view the trio as goofy or harmless after that.

(Poss. changes with Fred in new Angel?)

But the threat of casualty is never there. Even when they 'killed' Buffy, you knew she was coming back.
(Poss. changes with Fred in new Angel?)
But it wasn't treated lightly when she came back, and 6 as a whole was about the consequences that action had on her psyche... And a lot of character have never come back... Jenny Calendar, Joyce, Tara...

I like the new twist with Fred, some say Illyria cheapens her death, but I don't think it does... As a whole, tv shows let a character's death be completely dealt with within a few episodes, and nobody shows signs of grief after an episode or two. But her still being there is just going to be like a continual raw wound for everyone.

Dude, I said it was fun! I like that conflict, whereas trading one liners with killer ventriloquist's dummies is fun but not at all compelling to watch more than once.

See! Really, I like fun! OTM! FAP! ILX cliches a-go-go!

The first seasons were strong because it worked as a superficial show but also on that deeper level. Even the throwaway episodes from S2/3 had something that advanced the characters or their relationships.

I'm completely enthralled by how creepy and new this Illyria character is, and I'm bummed that they only have about six more episodes to feature her. The first half of the season included so many one-off, lighthearted episodes that they didn't have a chance to properly demonstrate how corrupted the Angel crew became. So it seems like they've piled it all on in the last few weeks - but I'm still enjoying it.

Dig those eyes: http://savetherobot.com/pfwork/evilfred.jpg

Also, Hannigan was a terrible actress as Evil Willow, and that whole Xander face-off was a bit ridick.

Once you've eliminated Willow, Buffy and Angel (plus Anya's dead), the characters available for new shows are pretty thin - too much air time for Jonathan. The prospective Giles show sounded interesting, but I guess that's off as well.

*That* would be the way to go. A bunch of cool, alienated cranky Slayers with Andrew in the inept lead.

(My understanding is that in the new Buffy comix, she and the Immortal traipse about Italy fighting whatever.)

I haven't seen either Firefly or Serenity, but am planning both. Does it matter which order I view them in? Should I ensure that I see Firefly before going to watch Serenity at the pictures?

Wait, so ... after the resurrection of Buffy, did they ever bother trying to explain how she became Dawn's guardian again? The protective services lady is all up in her business but never notes "being deceased" as a reason she might be considered an unfit mother.

Nobody outside the gang knew Buffy was dead, right? A robot took her place.

yeah, that's right. the school officials never knew she was dead.

but there's some anxiety about Dawn maybe being sent away to Mr. Summers during season 6, I think?

Oh, right. BUT: she had a freaking headstone!

a SECRET headstone. sniff. "Buffy Summers. She saved the world. A lot."

You people have an answer for everything, don't you.

no, you're right, it's a little sloppy.

Eh, not that bad -- I'd say it's a pretty excellent job of rapidly reviving a show that you'd previously closed out with the death of the main character! The Buffybot was one hell of a useful plot device.

WARNING SPOILERS

this show was really bad.

^ So few words, so much RONG.

Seriously. rogermexico OTM.

i haven't seen any buffy in almost two years and i'm afraid to watch it again for fear it might suck.

"I thought the First was a good villain but what I could never understand is why it didn't exploit its ability to appear as Buffy by doing the ol' switcheroo on the Scooby Gang."

Still wondering this. Still one of the biggest so-big-a-missed-opportunity-it-actually-forms-a-gaping-hole-of-plot-inconsistency thingies this show ever had.

Yes - that was definitely a bizarre miss. I haven't seen any Buffy in two years either, and the memory of seasons 6 and 7 doesn't make me want to - but on the other hand my sister was listing her top 10 Buffy episodes the other day for work reasons, and discussing those totally made me want to start again at the beginning. I really hope it doesn't all suck 2nd/3rd time around.

I'm "watching" season 8... a couple of week episodes, but all in all no complaints.

my sister was listing her top 10 Buffy episodes the other day for work reasons

!

what does sis do that this is her work?

Season 8 is... eh, I just don't get comic books.

I read the first graphic novel of Season 8 over Thanksgiving and remember almost nothing of it all. It was underwhelming. I don't think it is comic books (I love Y: The Last Man, for example); I just don't think Buffy works as well in a comic book format. (By "Buffy," I mean the concept, the characters, the story... it just doesn't seem to gel.)

As for season 6, it had a lot of ups and downs; of course I love Once More, With Feeling and I enjoyed all the Buffy/Spike drama. I think my favorite episode of the season is the one where Buffy becomes invisible.

i haven't watched it at all since it ended, but i figure i'll buy it one of these days. (yes i know one doesn't have buy things anymore but i'm sorry i want to buy a buffy box set thank you.) i'm not worried about how it'll hold up, it was classic from the start.

what does sis do that this is her work?

She works for a major internet-related company. I think this was something of a sideline to her main work, something to do with a new social-networking site that one of her colleagues is responsible for.

um yeah, i watch buffy constantly. it totally holds up.

what i want to know is why, when they made such a big deal of a new slayer being called when the old slayer died--even to the point that that happened when buffy died for like 5 seconds--why no one new showed up when buffy died for like 6 months!! who was slaying??

Perhaps there was a new one called, maybe she just had better things to do than move to Sunnydale to hang out with Buffy + friends (there are other hellmouths and weird things in the world). Either that or there is still a single line of slayers that goes Buffy - Kendra - Faith, and now it's waiting for Faith to die and Buffy isn't really a part of it anymore.

I've just seen series 7 (which I didn't like much originally) again after not watching any for a few years, and it was pretty enjoyable and a lot better than I had remembered, I'm thinking about starting on the others again too.

there is still a single line of slayers that goes Buffy - Kendra - Faith, and now it's waiting for Faith to die and Buffy isn't really a part of it anymore.

this is my explanation for s1ocki's question. then everything gets all weird with all the girls are slayers now in season 7, but i guess that's the point.

ya i hear that it just seemed to really SUGGEST that another slayer was gonna show and i was let down when that didnt happen.

man buffy box set down to $130 bucks NEW. i am very close to buying this.

i'm not worried about how it'll hold up, it was classic from the start.

Once it hit its stride it was the best show on television for a good three years, but I gotta warn you, Season One is shaky. Still finding its feat in terms of theme, character, and tone, and the fx are sub-Doctor Who.

OLD Doctor Who.

From Season Two on though, just impossibly grebt.

yeah i guess i had the advantage of discovering it in the 2nd season, so when i saw the 1st season in reruns i was already well disposed toward it.

season 1 was short anyway so i wouldnt sweat it