What Is America’s Most Miserable City?

Voted #11, my hometown.

chicago, esp. at #7, doesn't seem like it belongs on this list but lol forbes i guess

lol forbes h8n on the central valley

kinda otm tho : /

Chicago only belongs on this list if you can't handle the cold (I can't), otherwise it's pretty much the best town.

In 2005, Forbes magazine listed Stockton as having 6,570 crimes per 100,000 residents — the highest listed; and 0.8% of engineers within total employment — the lowest listed. The city had the 7th lowest (of 150) educational attainment (bachelor's degree or higher over the age 25). However, in 2009, Forbes reported Stockton was no longer the most dangerous city, moving to number five.

In the February 2, 2011 issue of Forbes, the magazine gave Stockton the dubious distinction of being the "most miserable" US city, largely as a result of the steep drop in home values.

Central Connecticut State University surveys from 2005 and 2006 ranked the city as the least literate of all U.S. cities with a population of more than 250,000.

According to a Gallup poll, Stockton was tied with Montgomery, Alabama for the most obese metro area in the United States of America with an obesity rate of 34.6 percent.

welcome to beautiful fresno, ca

chicago dc and miami are kind of curious choices

anyway i voted detroit for the sense of grandeur - its hard to get too fired up abt some overgrown california cow town

almost voted dc out of hatred but irl id rather live there than almost all these places

I feel bad picking on cities that were once booming but have hit hard times, voted Jacksonville for being relatively large yet consistently shitty throughout history.

I would live anywhere in Michigan if I had a steady job there - great weekend recreation, lots of water.

They base these things on how unemployed people live!

central valley FTW

I voted West Palm Beach, I might have major panic attacks being stuck on a peninsula without a lot of money.

i thought about voting for west palm beach. my grandma had a condo near there. between the humidity and all the sickly pastel pink and the endless sprawl, i hated every second of my visits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YV5XkvI5NE

living one of those california cities that looks like grand island, nebraska is one of those "so close yet so far" things.

of the list, only been to DC and it sucks. city of boring, careerist transplants, crime, and overpriced drinks. soulless.

thank you article, forgot to mention the ridiculous traffic and road system.

Only been to Sacramento, Memphis and DC out of these - would prob vote for Sacramento

Out of the ones I've not been to, I'm not sure - Toledo or Ft Lauderdale possibly. Feel like Fresno should be the answer but there's something weird about its location that makes it seem sort ot interesting

fresno sucks, but bakersfield sucks worse. jacksonville's actually not bad. miami sucks, but, i can't vote for a niceweather place when flint, michigan is staring me in the face

As of 2008 Modesto ranked number 1 for car theft rate per 100,000 people

so is the california dream finally once and for all dead - people bouncing off the coast anding up in these busted inland towns seems to be saying something - no one really vibes to any california mythology anymore do they

except for lol europeans of course, they still love conceptual cali

only been to Chi, DC, and Cleveland. Abstaining bcz I got a really awesome lapdance in Cleveland.

(yawn, sigh) toledo

Memphis is more sad than it is miserable. Jacksonville, FL is fucking miserable.

there's nothing wrong with jacksonville

If you are living in Del Paso Heights, Sacramento, then yes, miserable times ahoy. But as much as home prices suck, public transport sucks a hairy one, I actually kind of like Sacramento?

How can the answer not be Bakersfield.

Maybe I just associate bad things with it because it's the last thing on I-95 that stands between me and getting out of Florida, haha! (But it's totally culture-dead and good for nothing.) xp

pfft culture sucks anyway

1. Portland, Ore.

Overall rank: 1
Depression rank: 1
Suicide rank: 12
Crime (property and violent) rank: 24
Divorce rate rank: 4
Cloudy days: 222
Unemployment rate (December 2008): 7.8%

http://www.careerbliss.com/press-releases/the-best-and-worst-cities-to-work

lol @ how many of the "best places to work" are on this "miserable" list, this stuff is all bullshit.

I live in one of these and have been to several. Of those, I'm voting Ft. Lauderdale, which I absolutely fucking hated every second I was there, from the humidity to the tacky-ass Hyatt Pier 66 with its revolving restaurant to being in Florida which I dislike anyway.

of the list, only been to DC and it sucks. city of boring, careerist transplants, crime, and overpriced drinks. soulless.

OTM. Lived in Fairfax, VA for seven years and only went into the city to drop off my wife for work or if I absolutely had to.

Cloudy days: 222

None of the California spots mentioned come close to the REAL jewel of the Central Valley...

http://www.syix.com/yubacity/art/yclogoart.gif

My mom spent her middle/high school years there. She left town as soon as she could and never returned.

And if you ever wanted to know more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuba_City,_California

"Prune Capital of the World"

so is the california dream finally once and for all dead - people bouncing off the coast anding up in these busted inland towns seems to be saying something - no one really vibes to any california mythology anymore do they

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 8:45 AM (33 minutes ago)

Think it's more like corporate america looking for cheaper leases and lower cost of living to save CapOpsExp. Trying (and failing) to turn rural aggie towns into burbs, most of this was explored and forecasted accurately by Mike Davis in City of Quartz. Nobody ever thinks of any of those towns in reference to "California" except for maybe Steinbeck scholars.

Oh and yes, this was my mom's high school...and that was the nickname:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Yuba_City_High_School_class_of_1988_sign_2009.jpg/800px-Yuba_City_High_School_class_of_1988_sign_2009.jpg

CapOpsExp?

You're making a pretty sound case here, Ned.

yeah my dad grew up in modesto left at 17 and never looked back - but back then it was just a hot dry little town in the middle of farmland not the list topping sprawl you see today

I like cloudiness fwiw, and if the UR was still under 8% I'd ramp up my desire to move to PDX.

Nobody ever thinks of any of those towns in reference to "California" except for maybe Steinbeck scholars.

And even then most of them stop at Salinas because that way they're not too far from Monterey or Santa Cruz.

You're making a pretty sound case here, Ned.

My own brief encounter with the place was enough.

Central Valley was yuck just to drive through, I can't imagine living there.

At least in Redding I could escape up into the mountains in an hour.

CapOpsExp?

― Princess TamTam, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 9:24 AM (33 seconds ago)

capital and operating expenses

yeah my dad grew up in modesto left at 17 and never looked back - but back then it was just a hot dry little town in the middle of farmland not the list topping sprawl you see today

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 9:25 AM (2 minutes ago)

american grafitti

er.. graffiti

so is the california dream finally once and for all dead - people bouncing off the coast anding up in these busted inland towns seems to be saying something - no one really vibes to any california mythology anymore do they
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 8:45 AM (33 minutes ago)

Think it's more like corporate america looking for cheaper leases and lower cost of living to save CapOpsExp. Trying (and failing) to turn rural aggie towns into burbs, most of this was explored and forecasted accurately by Mike Davis in City of Quartz. Nobody ever thinks of any of those towns in reference to "California" except for maybe Steinbeck scholars.

― i love you but i have chosen snarkness (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 12:23 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah i dont think the rise and fall of these central valley hell holes is what ruined californias luster exactly - its more symptomatic of it

yeah my dad grew up in modesto left at 17 and never looked back - but back then it was just a hot dry little town in the middle of farmland not the list topping sprawl you see today

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 9:25 AM (2 minutes ago)

american grafitti

― i love you but i have chosen snarkness (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 12:29 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ha ive mentioned this before but american graffiti is about my dads graduating class - like he wore the letter jacket as depicted in that movie - he did those things

Philly and NJ must've paid off someone.

Central Valley is kind of a bummer...and Ned is 100% otm about Yuba City.

But I can't help wanting to give a big shouty 'oh yeah well FUCK YOU" to the list makers. Half the places on this list, especially Central Valley/Northern California were completely gutted by the housing bubble burst and economic downturn. Fuck you and your 'miserable' city list, Forbes. It can't all be hipsters and bicycles and pet hotels, jerks.

Sorry, feeling a little sensitive this morning.

that is basically their argument tho

This all said there is something about how the Central Valley, as much as SF or SoCal, has become a new center for worldwide immigration to California -- as the Yuba City Wikipedia entry notes, it's become a big center of Sikh immigration, while the whole Sacramento and surrounding area was the main spot for Hmong immigration over the past decades. So it'll further reshape the place as time continues.

i like how immigrants come to places americans think are gross like fuck it this is dope im calling all my cousins

lol

It all starts somewhere.

my toledo friends are pretty miserable

xp: No animus towards PDX, though I can't say I know more about it than one might learn from Suicide Girls and business blogs: Mecca for the environmentally conscious or merely tattooed twenty-something, but hostile to prospective employers or squares like me... It will do okay this century.

while the whole Sacramento and surrounding area was the main spot for Hmong immigration over the past decades. So it'll further reshape the place as time continues.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 9:36 AM (6 minutes ago)

Hmong political refugee relocation was focused around Fresno fwiw.

The good weather and lack of a state income tax are the only things that kept Miami out of the top spot. In addition to housing problems (prices are down 50% over three years), corruption is off the charts, with 404 government officials convicted of crimes this decade in South Florida. Factor in violent crime rates among the worst in the country and long commutes, and it's easy to understand why Miami has steadily moved up our list, from No. 9 in 2009 to No. 6 last year to the runner-up spot this year

Forget all this. The worst part about Miami: there's fuck-all to do here.

i like how immigrants come to places americans think are gross like fuck it this is dope im calling all my cousins

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 9:38 AM (7 minutes ago)

As opposed to the alternative of genocide/reeducation? Yeah, you kinda sound like a Modesto simp.

Jacksonville though is a real horror.

whoa there steve shasta

take it to him steve shasta!!!!

Can't vote for Memphis yet until the earthquake finally hits.

re:Central Valley - has anyone read Gerald Haslam?

w/r/t Memphis, I think this is just like a short-term deflation. People had their hopes up 5-10 years ago and now everyone's upside down. Memphis has been hurting for years.

also, I WILL TAKE ANY OF YOU FULEZ DOWN WHO DARE TO MAKE CASUAL LIGHT OF POLITICAL REFUGEES.

I know the California cities better...I sorta like Sac, there are def worse places to live and maybe it'll even be cool in 30 years. Never been to Merced but college towns usually turn out alright too. Bakersfield sorta tries to out-Texas Texas, would prob rather live in Modesto. Or Texas.

The one city here that sticks out is Salinas. It's a military/aggie town that has seen far better days but it is close to some really pretty areas like Big Sur, Carmel, Monterey.

I'm certainly not an expert but jaxon is, he doesn't read ILE though, let me link this thread to him.

Salinas does have location going for it FAR more than the other spots as noted but it's not the best. (My dad's side of the family has been Monterey and San Benito County based for generations.)

The thing about Memphis is that it isn't just run down and beat up, but there's a tangible sadness in the air there. Even the touristy downtown part just seems like a half-hearted attempt to make people happy.

The good weather and lack of a state income tax are the only things that kept Miami out of the top spot. In addition to housing problems (prices are down 50% over three years), corruption is off the charts, with 404 government officials convicted of crimes this decade in South Florida. Factor in violent crime rates among the worst in the country and long commutes, and it's easy to understand why Miami has steadily moved up our list, from No. 9 in 2009 to No. 6 last year to the runner-up spot this year

Chicago seems like a really weird inclusion to me, but I've only been in spring and summer, and really only ventured from the Magnificent Mile area, a little south downtown and up into Wrigleyville. For that area and in April/June-ish, it was dope

also, I WILL TAKE ANY OF YOU FULEZ DOWN WHO DARE TO MAKE CASUAL LIGHT OF POLITICAL REFUGEES.

― i love you but i have chosen snarkness (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 12:54 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ha i knew someone would get all ilx know it all meaningful core on that post - anyway i was talking abt immigrants generally some of whom iirc are not political refugees - and no my single line comment was not a comprehensive reading of the hardships and triumphs of the immigrant experience but does reflect a pretty common irl phenomenon re differences in perception based on peoples life experiences - anyway it pains me to have to elucidate this

ya u seem pained

Even the touristy downtown part just seems like a half-hearted attempt to make people happy.

This so perfectly summarizes a state of being I've seen too many times in too many cities it should be graven in stone somewhere.

i wrote it literally with gritted teeth

there are native born middle class white peoples who live in bakersfield and fresno who are like 'fuck it this is dope' fwiw, I know some. maybe not modesto.

If Bakersfield is good enough for Merle Haggard...

Welcome to Fresno

Whether you're a sports enthusiast looking for the next big game, an avid art lover in search of hidden treasures, a foodie with a big appetite for fresh produce and local flavors, or the next Olympic snowboarding champion, Fresno has a playground for you, any time of year!

We invite you to explore our site and learn why the Fresno region is so special.

Are you ready to play?

there are native born middle class white peoples who live in bakersfield and fresno who are like 'fuck it this is dope' fwiw, I know some. maybe not modesto.

― iatee, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 1:25 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

eh pretty sure wed be seeing more evidence of this on yelp if it were true

there are native born middle class white peoples who live in bakersfield and fresno who are like 'fuck it this is dope' fwiw, I know some. maybe not modesto.

― iatee, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 1:25 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah this is definitely a thing - i find it actually kind of charming and it makes me like those hellholes more for some reason

even the worst californian shithole is better than osh kosh b'gosh county in the midwest imo

http://www.ci.oshkosh.wi.us/

??

i'd rather live in one of those cali cities than virtually anywhere west of the mississippi and east of the rockies tbqf. at least it's a pretty quick drive to the ocean.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8981/64532241.png

ya, salinas is where my wife grew up and her parents still live. we go down there fairly regularly. honestly i don't know the city though because all we ever do is hang out at her house and watch tv. we never go out to eat. occasionally we'll go to monterey. or the mall... she actually lives in a really nice area up on the hills, but everything else is just sprawling farm land. downtown is pretty bleak. i heard rumors salinas was on America's Most Wanted for a while for being so shitty. this is from wiki: While the US homocide rate has steadily declined since 2006, homocides in Salinas have doubled in two consecutive years, and now stands over four times the national average. but because i'm always bored out of my mind when i go there, i'm voting for it for most miserable city.

also worth mentioning: most of the ca shitholes still have good mexican food

When I look at Google satellite maps of California's central valley, the suburban sprawl is one of the greatest malinvestments visible from space on the planet. This is the most fertile land in the U.S. Grow spinach and fruit, not concrete and lawns. Burb's in the foothills are exempt from my ire.

thats an interesting point!

also worth mentioning: most of the ca shitholes still have good mexican food

― iatee, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 1:43 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha yes only time ive been to stockton was stopping at a mexican place on the way to somewhere else

Sanpaku, there is still zillions of acres of farms and stockyards, worry not.

Think it's more like corporate america looking for cheaper leases and lower cost of living to save CapOpsExp. Trying (and failing) to turn rural aggie towns into burbs, most of this was explored and forecasted accurately by Mike Davis in City of Quartz. Nobody ever thinks of any of those towns in reference to "California" except for maybe Steinbeck scholars.

― i love you but i have chosen snarkness (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 9:23 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

city of quartz is a great book

West Palm Beach is hell, this much I know.

vallejo has marine world, which is a pretty depressing place

Also I don't know anything about merced, but isn't it right next to Yosemite? Can't be that horrible.

that's the selling point for UC Merced, but it's still 'less than 2 hours' according to wikipedia, so I mean it's California-close.

Marysville is as sad as any of those CA cities and I prefer any of them to San Bernadino.

man i know were all caught up in the ca moment here buts srsly dudes, detroit, which has been kinda in steady decline for what 2 decades now? no offense to the people that live there, but man its just dire, def fits the miserable tag imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYCF08y-K7A&feature=related

they have pro sports teams tho

and i mean miserable as not a rewording of worst - its got kinda a pervasive sadness to it, its seen as the metaphorical face of the decline of american industry, which cant help (although the fact that thx to roger and me people have used flint as the stand in for "worst place in the world" or punchlines for haiti/other devestated areas jokes for 20+ years makes a pretty good argument for that as well)

yeah detroit seems more permafucked than these california places - tho they do have the eminem superbowl ad so who knows

is it better to have had industry, and lost, than to have been a shithole all along?

no robocop statue, no cred

I feel like there are a ton of smart people trying to come up with ways to bring back detroit, saving detroit is like the urbanist version of curing cancer. and maybe it won't ever happen and maybe there never will be jobs again, ever.

but who's out there trying to save modesto?

wait isnt Korn from bakersfield - thats a point in their column i suppose

I've only ever been to the Detroit airport but the most depressing American city I've ever been in is Newark with Philly as a close second.

(HSTNGS doesn't count because it isn't actually a city)

I like Philly!

Newark is a shithole.

cleveland is awesome and should be removed from this list posthaste

I am sure Philly has a lot to recommend it but the only area of town I know at all is about 6 blocks away from Temple on the edge of Chinatown amongst a bunch of condemned buildings, which is where the grad school apartment my SIL's partner found was. Having home base in such a dire, depressing neighborhood kind of soured me on the rest of the city.

Yeah, that's not such a great area.

guess its time to post this again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM

Philly haters are crazy imo

No town with such a fine watering hole as this could ever be that miserable.

omg @ "all the fish have aids"

phillys cool, it is sort of negative, not sure if its miserable tho

if i lived anywhere else in the country it would be philly hands down

"all the fish have aids"

exaggerated problem, now under control

Ok back to the CA cowtowns, I have to admit something, I do a bit of travel to some pretty exotic locales but over the past 15 years I have to had to travel to a lot of the places listed above for 2 different reasons but I'm good at killing 2 birds with one stone. It's funny, that there are still "downtowns" and "old towns" in these areas that are still kinda cute and charming. It's really no big secret anymore but if you are in the market for antiques and/or vintage, the Central Valley may be one of the finest areas in the USA to stock up on wares. That said, I have a feeling the article is talking more about the planned communities and tracts built around industry moving out of the big city, where typical housing values are roughly 1/3 of where they were 5-10 years ago... which goes back to the City of Quartz.

(also, add me to the people who don't mind Philly, F da h8rz)

philly's a complicated place, ultimately a poor man's chicago i think

Pittsburgh seems way more complicated imho... and shares more of a CLASSIC USA architecture bent with Chicago. Basically U RONG DAWG.

city of quartz is a great book

Outstanding book. I've named my entire online presence after it.

I've been to 18 out of the 20 cities on this list and sure, the San Joaquin Valley can be a world of suck but from Forbes' POV any agriculture city is an old economy trainwreck. I'd rank any of California's prison cities (Susanville, Crescent City) higher.

Think it's more like corporate america looking for cheaper leases and lower cost of living to save CapOpsExp. Trying (and failing) to turn rural aggie towns into burbs

Absolutely OTM

That said, I have a feeling the article is talking more about the planned communities and tracts built around industry moving out of the big city, where typical housing values are roughly 1/3 of where they were 5-10 years ago... which goes back to the City of Quartz.

Pomona, Victorville, and Lancaster to thread.

Can't help but notice that New Orleans was left off the list.

Anyway, voted Youngstown, OH. Harsh, desperate place.

pittsburgh's pretty uncomplicated

Pittsburgh seems like a really fun place to party and wish you had a job

pittsburgh is a place that thinks two rivers are three rivers

x-posts

Never been to Chicago - really want to go.

Pittsburgh seems way more complicated imho... and shares more of a CLASSIC USA architecture bent with Chicago. Basically U RONG DAWG.

Don't really get how it's complicated but my Mother is from Pittsburgh and if you listen to her it is definitely the most miserable city but I get the feeling that it's changed A LOT since she was a kid.

CHICAGO IS AWESOME

everyone loves pittsburgh these days

i will say that pittsburgh's nicer than you'd expect based on its reputation, lots of greenery and sunshine and stuff, kinda expected it to be like mordor or something

well, not really sunshine

I know, I really want to go.

Wait - I fogot I was there once but it was for a wedding and I barely saw any of the city. One day I'd like to go and visit family I've never met and the places my mom grew up etc. Would be weird but sort of awesome, I think.

My only experience with Pittsburgh is thanks to Michael Chabon.

What I did see what pretty green and nice though whereas my Mom remembers it as an awful coal-mining city and talks about like it was basically the grimmest place on Earth.

i would totally live in pittsburgh if i hadn't grown up there

chicago is amazing except for the weather, i ran away to there when i was 13, i thought i was gonna live w/roger ebert, long story short it didnt work out

coal? steel. whatever.

there (was) a lot of coal too -- my granddad was a coal miner

chicago is p gr8

wld say detroit right now

tam u ended up with siskel? :(

New Orleans is an interesting case because perhaps more than anything other city here its distinctly two cities. The crescent stretching from the Vieux Carre through the Garden District to Audubon is educated, affluent, quirky, and antique, the flooded areas of the mid-city and East Orleans were slums, and Lakeside a colorless suburb, long before Katrina, and little has changed but the murder rate (up) since they became half-abandoned. No sane national business would base or keep its regional office here, so the best-case scenario is that the crescent becomes a bit like old Charleston (a tourist destination and mecca for regional outcasts), while the post 1900 expansions slowly become wilderness.

I could get into what a disaster the local school districts are after the entire middle class absconded to private education in the civil rights era, but the city's problems are deeper than just racism. The oceans will continue rising, the Mississippi wants to start a new delta via the Achafalaya, and tranferring traffic from barge to ocean-going vessel doesn't require a city of more than 200k. I've considered buying real-estate there (where I was born and my father's family resides), but its still very expensive (compared to where I am), and living there must have the trepidation of sitting in a dunk tank.

Pittsburgh seems like a really fun place to party and wish you had a job

― Indolence Mission (DJP), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 12:09 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

LOL - According to the below link, Pittsbugh was voted "Most Livable City" in 2010 by Forbes, partly due to their low unemployment rate. I was born there, was a shithole when we left (late 70's). But apparently the city has transformed itself quite nicely (gives hope to Detroit, I guess)

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/29/cities-livable-pittsburgh-lifestyle-real-estate-top-ten-jobs-crime-income.html

Cloudy days: 222

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 12:19 PM (3 hours ago)

this doesn't seem so bad to me, but then i checked and my hometown is the 9th cloudiest in the US

Pittsburgh is pretty great imo

I rag on Philly, but it seems like a place I could live. It's "visually interesting" ("scenic" and "beautiful" were not quite the right words), has culture, is very pedestrian friendly (with acceptable public transit), has nice shops, ethnic neighborhoods, bars (I really liked Tattooed Mom, Monks, and McGlinchies (cheap cheap cheap)) and food (? I didn't eat out much there, and I read that it was a gastronomical desert, but that was a few years ago). It feels like it's somewhere. It seems pretty affordable. Taxis were very cheap. And it has lots of very obvious history.

I really would like to hear from someone who HATES Chicago. I've only met one person who had terrible things to say about Chicago, but she hated it b/c she hated big cities. I can see plenty of faults in Chicago, but I can't quite imagine anyone calling it miserable.

yeah, philly is cool. dangerous and corrupt, but at least it has some life to it.

Bizarre, I just visited Jacksonville last week. It was beautiful and pretty chill!

thats what im saying man

the only complaints i've ever really heard about chicago are a) the winter weather and b) cubs fans

xp: As a regular visitor during grad school in Madison, Chicagoland's suburban sprawl was as dispiriting as any in the nation, but the architecture downtown was uniquely menacing. I mean, the downtown public library looked intent on consuming pedestrians. I liked this.

cleveland, ime, is a cool town. i have had little experience w/detroit but it's pretty depressing to imagine that at one point the city had almost 2 million people and now it's just cracking 900,000.

I was at a convention with a girl from Detroit who was very eagerly anticipating her upcoming move to Cleveland. Like, she wouldn't shut up about how much she loved Cleveland.

My experience in Philly mostly involved it turning into an experience in Chester by mistake.

Detroit and Flint are both depressing, but there are a lot of things that I like about Detroit...Flint doesn't seem to have many redeeming qualities.

^this...Flint is like Detroit w/o all the fun parts.

Flint seems to have crept under the radar on this thread, but as a MI native, I uphold that Flint is FAR more depressing than Detroit. Flint is to Detroit as Gary is to Chicago: both are outer-perimeter industrial husks, the bleakest extremities of rust-belt decay.

Wait how could Cleveland be worse than Cincinnati? Can someone from Cincinnati explain that to me?

King's Island vs Rock n Roll HOF

skyline chili?

Cincinnati looks really charming. I've only spent a night there, but it was hilly, green, and had lots of interesting narrow houses. I went to a 4 story gay bar that was fun.

can you tell us the best of those stories?

probably been said before in this thread, but ...

amazing how so many of these miserable cities are in Central CA/San Joaquin Valley. and yes, i've been to Stockton and it IS a miserable place.

it's also named after a dude from New Jersey, so WTF does anyone expect yo?!?

dadjoke dainger

Flint is to Detroit as Gary is to Chicago: both are outer-perimeter industrial husks, the bleakest extremities of rust-belt decay.

― beer, beer, beer (Pillbox), Wednesday, February 9, 2011

hmmm persuasive

oh no the joke police

plus us real jersey dudes who were stuck out in Stockton in late 2008 nicknamed the place "Newark with Palm Trees" ... which is strangely apt.

sorry, i didn't mean anything bad by it, i completely forgot u were the tiresomely sensitive guy xp

I would live anywhere in Michigan if I had a steady job there - great weekend recreation, lots of water.

They base these things on how unemployed people live!

― I Don't Like Your Game (u s steel), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 3:14 AM (13 hours ago) Bookmark

^like this seems like a really stupid ILX post to me...

I feel like there are a ton of smart people trying to come up with ways to bring back detroit, saving detroit is like the urbanist version of curing cancer.

yeah i've come to think this, too. i know at least two ppl (well, their siblings) who've made detroit a 'project.' i've seen countless links to "generic website with pics of blown-out detroit" and i get the feeling that there's a cadre of ppl out there that desperately want it to rise from the ashes in an ecourbanist/hipster style or w/e.

also: cannot understand ppl that ~hate~ chicago, either. i don't want to live there ever again, but that's no the city's fault, it's mine---i'm a fence-sitting city/country person and hate that such a great city is in stupid illinois. otherwise, it's great.

Detroit is and will always be more hip than 1000 John Fettermans

(which is why I voted Flint)

feel like there's at least one Connecticut city that belongs on the list

i can kind of see reasons for every city on this list being there (that i've visited), except Chicago. gtfo of here w/ that.

Chicago is where the majority of the preps at my school ended up...

yeah i've come to think this, too. i know at least two ppl (well, their siblings) who've made detroit a 'project.' i've seen countless links to "generic website with pics of blown-out detroit" and i get the feeling that there's a cadre of ppl out there that desperately want it to rise from the ashes in an ecourbanist/hipster style or w/e.

― ullr saves (gbx), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 5:29 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah sort of feel like i should buy a block of those 10k houses and wait for the money to roll in, also live in a diff one every day of the week

This video made me wonder what Detroit is really like these days. There will always be people who say about a place that is known as a hell-hole "no, but it's actually cool/coming back/got a great ___ scene" but this made me think maybe Detroit is worth a look.

http://www.vbs.tv/watch/uneven-terrain/palladium-detroit-full-new-credits--3

xp!

remember reading somewhere about how detroit was seeking/should seek "the gays" as the best way to revitalization

eminem needs to do a gay-friendly ad

Eminem has spoken out in favor of gay marriage, so that's a start.

ive seen a few things w/people complaining abt european journalists coming to detroit and repeatedly photographing the abandoned train station being all they never talk abt such and such new building cafe art gallery - and its like dudes i understand you want to defend yr city but everywhere has regular shit like cafes and thriving businesses not everywhere has giant abandoned buildings all over its downtown

My brother-in-law is currently a student at Wayne State and is one of those people that is super active in trying to help Detroit rebound. He mostly does this through youth organizations, teaching kids poetry and things like that, but he seems to be very civil-minded and involved in community meetings and orgs. He is also super involved in the hip-hop and poetry scenes there, so he comes from a different perspective than "lol whitey comes to Detroit to 'save' it". I really respect the things he says and thinks about it, he is super excited about the possibilities, but acknowledges they are making baby steps at best.

On the other hand, his apartment has been broken into six times in the last two years and he's had three laptops and two gaming systems stolen.

yeah but how much does he pay in rent??

remember reading somewhere about how detroit was seeking/should seek "the gays" as the best way to revitalization

― mookieproof, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 5:44 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

b/w the Ferndale crowd & the warehouse-party circuit, there has been plenty of hot gay action in tha d for some time now.

Re New Orleans, yes, it's a city with soooo many problems, but I think I could be very happy there. I lived there for 6 months after Katrina and I was miserable, but that was because of my job (worker's rights advocacy in a lawless time and place), because of the horrible post-storm conditions, and because I was sort of miserable no matter where I was. Living there would mean giving up some things I take for granted in Chicago (public transit, job opportunities, safety nets if I hit on really hard times), but there it's really an incredible place to live. It's slower-paced, it's gorgeous (nature and man-made stuff), it's cheap, it's fairly walkable, and there is something in the air that changes people, for the better, I think. It's really easy to meet people and make friends.

yeah but how much does he pay in rent??

No idea, but I'm sure it isn't much at all.

this is obv just my worldview but I think in the long-long term it's gonna be better to be an economically fucked urban area than an economically fucked exurban area. detroit seems like has the raw material to be a successful city in 2050, whereas a lot of the california sprawl (etc.) is basically objectively doomed.

On the other hand, his apartment has been broken into six times in the last two years and he's had three laptops and two gaming systems stolen.

He must REALLY like his apartment to have been there so long, then, b/c there SO MUCH SPACE available to rent/buy there, pretty much all @ ridiculously cheap rates, that finding a place that is reasonably secure is not too difficult - granted, that might involve some combination of alarms, bars and/or super-deadbolts, but still.. Keeping folks from breaking into yr car, on the other hand, is a much different story.

"all the fish have aids"

exaggerated problem, now under control

No way, I get panhandled by AIDS fish every day downtown, it's ridiculous.

Queer guy for the sore-eye? xxxxp

this is obv just my worldview but I think in the long-long term it's gonna be better to be an economically fucked urban area than an economically fucked exurban area. detroit seems like has the raw material to be a successful city in 2050, whereas a lot of the california sprawl (etc.) is basically objectively doomed.

If I'm going to move somewhere miserable, I'm at least choosing the place where I don't need to set the abandoned house next door on fire to stay warm.

yeah you set shit on fire in Cali just to pass the time, that's livin, man.

depressing california doesn't have fantastic weather, can get pretty hot. but I guess it's still better than most of the country, overall. depends what you like.

the one saving grace about Stockton WAS the weather -- very hot and dry in summer yes, but i prefer dry heat to the living-in-a-sponge heat that i am used to here in the northeast.

that Detroit doc is good, but it does momentarily highlight one thing that's going to hold Detroit back in the future even with a vibrant youth scene - size and car culture.

I was gonna say, Central Valley summers are uggggghhhhhhhhh. Sacramento is bad enough on a roll but roll through Stockton, Modesto in the middle of August and your car will burst into flames. But I am a baby and I hate hot dry summers. I hate hot weather period.

Plus the air is foul; the valley is a bowl the holds all the farm equipment exhaust and kicked-up dirt for six months until the rains come in the fall.

I was last in Detroit a couple of years ago for a convention for work, and really didn't find being there all that miserable aside from the fact that people can still smoke in restaurants there. That one just absolutely blew my mind, and made a lot of dining really uncomfortable. Most of my time was spent in the Renaissance Center, but co-workers and I went to some good restaurants downtown (including the Pegasus in Greektown, which was fantastic) and a couple of cool clubs. Went to the MGM, too, which was just . . . ugh. What really struck me was that at night, except for in Greektown, the streets were almost 100% empty.

Michigan went smoke-free. Sorry Phil.

Oh, wait. I mean, You're in luck, Phil!

Jesus. I swear I looked at each word you wrote, but I certainly did not *read* them.

reading is for nerds...

Reading is Fundamental

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwH01ual7KI&feature=related

Plus the air is foul; the valley is a bowl the holds all the farm equipment exhaust and kicked-up dirt for six months until the rains come in the fall.

― Groovy Goulet (pixel farmer), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 3:37 PM (3 hours ago)

....

uh, wha? I think you're confusing Riverside with the Central Valley. Air quality in the farmland is pretty impeccable aside from Harris Ranch/cowschwitz.

"cowschwitz" lol

Louis Theroux's recentish documentary on the Central Valley and Fresno: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-city-addicted-to-crystal-meth/

speaking of, since people were talking about philly upthread, i watched this other night... louis theroux in "killadelphia" '08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSX0CXjzDS8

louis theroux chillin in america lookin vaguely bewildered and disturbed

Air quality in the farmland is pretty impeccable aside from Harris Ranch/cowschwitz.

Not really. The Central Valley has some of the highest ozone pollution rates in the country: the valley was fined the valley was fined $29 million by the EPA9 million by the EPA, higher asthma rates, tainted water supplies, and a dozen or so Superfund sites left over from the toxic shit used in farming and oil production.

arrgh... apologies for the messed up copy/paste there.

wow, i stand corrected. it's always blue skies and high wind when I'm driving down 5 and 99 (except for the rare Tule Fog incidents).

Yeah, the pollution extended to the North Valley as well. In the winter, Mt Shasta was clearly visible from Redding (65 miles away). Only occasionally visible in summer through the haze.

I was in Chico in June and could clearly see Mts. Lassen and Shasta despite the 110F heat. Maybe I'm just lucky, weird.

(I will concede that some of the worst air pollution is the invisible type).

As you get further south the pollution gets worse. When I drove through Taft in the summer last year everything looked like it was cloaked in mustard gas.

i was really stoked to download these mp3s to listen to when i drive from sf to la. i thought it was gonna be a history of the area and cool/weird facts, but when i actually listened to them, it was all about how bad the pollution (air and water) was and how it's fucking everyone up. also the timing was off. if it's 30 min between point a and b, the clip was only like 10 minutes long, so i'd have to switch between these and music all the time while i was driving. annoying.

http://www.invisible5.org/

I worked in Detroit in the late 90s and it was the first big city that I ever spent a lot of time in, which totally screwed up my concept of cities. Once I spent time in NY, Chicago, Minneapolis, DC, Seattle, Portland, etc I started to realize just how fucked up Detroit really is. There's no density to anything, just islands of things with long ass drives through depressing freeways or empty neighborhoods between everything.

That said I kind of love it and am pretty fascinated by it - there are a lot of people who are trying to fix it up and take it seriously and I hope that they can pull it off to some degree. There's so much history and cool architecture and space and such an interesting pride to people who live there that I'm always going to root for it.

But Flint, damn. Like someone said above, it's like Detroit without all the underdog stuff you want to root for.

Agree with ice cream upthread about euro journos in Detroit -though they seem to have moved on to Gary (and maybe Youngstown?) now, this stuff is always going to be fascinating to European journalists tho

Not sure about how much Pittsburgh's situation can be held up as an example to Detroit (tho tbf I've only been to Pittsburgh in the last 5 years). I don't drive and i was able to get around pittsburgh pretty easy, its a pretty compact and even walkable city, and it doesn't feel like life/money has escaped to the suburbs - not sure if this is a result of topography because it doesn't really feel like pittsburgh even has suburbs, more like surrounding towns. Also the river towns themselves seem to be in much worse shape than pgh itself rather than the other way round. But yea basically the actual physical layout of Pittsburgh is user-friendly and compact and surely this is a big thing for things like regeneration, Detroit just seems too spread out, too car reliant, too suburban in format in its core, too big?)

Dunno about cincy as i haven't been, but that seems more the kind of city that might be able to look to Pittsburgh as a model?

every time I go to Detroit I always have a lot of fun; of course there's the whole "country bumpkin in the big city for the weekend" thing that's attached to it, so maybe I'm a bit biased like joygoat, but I think the "tenth level of Hell" reputation that it's earned is only one side of the story. Detroit's always had a thriving music scene, entusiastic sports teams, all this stuff...

I've only been to Flint once, and that was to eat Fuddrucker's when I was a child. Anytime anyone I'm with drives through or near Flint they speed up. But that's just reputation. I've heard a lot of people compare Saginaw to Flint, and I've spent a little bit of time in Saginaw, plus my aunt worked there, and from what I can tell, it's pretty fucked up.

http://suwon-scuba.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Flint_Mi-8467.jpg

the urban planning world has been obsessed with youngstown for a few years now.

http://www.modeldmedia.com/features/ytown05022010.aspx

I've heard a lot of people compare Saginaw to Flint, and I've spent a little bit of time in Saginaw, plus my aunt worked there, and from what I can tell, it's pretty fucked up.

I was born in Saginaw and spent 20 years living there. The city is doomed.

My father-in-law lives in Bay City (which also has its fair share of depressing areas, amidst the expensive mansions) so we always drive near Flint on the way to visit him. Haven't really spent enough time in the city to form a real opinion, but I remember stopping at a Meijer to pick something up on our way and being stunned to see that the entire electronics department was a cage and you had to tell an employee exactly what you wanted so they could go retrieve it for you. Certainly no browsing.

Last year on a visit to Bay City we walked by a beautiful, fully restored house on Central Street with five bedrooms on sale for $198,000. Being used to the Chicago-area market, I still haven't gotten over that one. Of course living there would mean living in Bay City, so, uh, no thanks.

Bay City is, compared to Saginaw, pretty vibrant. Their mansions were an eye opener when I saw them for the first time last year. Midland seem to be the most thriving of the cities in that area what with Dow Chemical and all.

in which big American cities can one still smoke?

Oh, there is a certain charm to Bay City, certainly and, especially as an architect, I love visiting and walking around some of the older neighborhoods. There are some fairly depressing areas too though.

Not sure what to make of this kind of stuff in Detroit,

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=detroit,+mi&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.704107,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne,+Michigan&ll=42.398805,-83.007288&spn=0.043735,0.077162&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=42.398761,-83.007901&panoid=WT3cHFXR5lb71g-vEWhX7w&cbp=12,358.1,,0,7.5

sporadic intermittent new residences on some pretty empty streets, whats the likely outcome for these?

xxp All of them, so long as you're outside.

when I went to Alaska last summer you could still smoke indoors

Bay City - eh. Compared to Flint or Saginaw it is not too bad. Of course, that's not really saying much.

looks like St Louis may still allow smoking. can anyone confirm?

heard proposals of detroit/flint buying up sections of the city and creating a green belt, shrinking the whole thing down, excellent concept

sporadic intermittent new residences on some pretty empty streets, whats the likely outcome for these?

my guess: the houses that were there before were bought at foreclosure auction, demolished, and the investors are just letting the new houses sit there until they find buyers. they do look like nice homes; maybe some urbanist hipsters will snap 'em up cheap.

Milwaukee still allowed smoking in businesses last time I was there (about a year ago)

jon if you're an architect you should hang out in Midland some time. One of the Dow kids was a student of Frank Lloyd Wright, and a lot of the houses there are v modernist.

From what I've heard Bay City has an immense pub crawl scene. Like a neighborhood with just a shit-ton of bars...

I worked with a guy from Saginaw while in Detroit and he loved Detroit so much more. Even after his apartment was robbed and the cops who happened upon the burglars loading his shit into their car got into an actual gun battle with them in the parking garage and none of the neighbors would say a word about anything to anyone so the whole thing got dropped, he still talked about how much worse Saginaw is and how much he hated it.

I had no idea that Saginaw was in such bad shape. When I lived in Michigan in high school (till 1992, near Charlevoix), I frequently visited family in Saginaw and Bay City and both seemed to be doing OK. Certainly nothing like Flint. Since then I have driven around Saginaw and Bay City once or twice as recently as 2007 and they seemed down, but not "doomed." Have they gotten worse since '92, you think?

(My high school impressions of Saginaw are probably improved by the fact that I hated living in the country and it was the only remotely urban place I got to see for years.)

my guess: the houses that were there before were bought at foreclosure auction, demolished, and the investors are just letting the new houses sit there until they find buyers. they do look like nice homes; maybe some urbanist hipsters will snap 'em up cheap.

― the mu-ney su-zvuki (get bent), Thursday, 10 February 2011 07:41 (22 minutes ago

I get this but how come the come they don't get stripped of the copper piping etc?

Also, should Belle Glade, Florida be on this list?

worked with a guy from Saginaw while in Detroit and he loved Detroit so much more

It's funny how that is. Cleveland was utopia to me when I got out of Saginaw.

Downtown Saginaw is never coming back. There's a strip of bars (Hamilton Street) that is ok plus there's Spatz's bread (the best toast in America) and good local produce. It has some good points but it's just kinda sprawly and eh.

Spatz's bread (the best toast in America)

! I forgot about Spatz! We always ALWAYS had Spatz on hand in MI.

My aunt lived on Tittabawassee Road. It's fun to say Tittabawassee.

it's really amazing how great Spatz toast is

Good memories of Michigan for me:

Spatz (I'm really glad you reminded me!)
Faygo Redpop
Pasties
Lake effect snow
Thundersnow
Vernors (which is more ubiquitous now)

i bought some gd vernors the other day thinking it was ginger ale but it turns out its ginger soda which is different and shittier, so fuck vernors

pwned

It actually tastes like Ginger tho which is awesome. And it makes you sneeze if you sip it from a freshly poured glass.

Autocorrect capitalizes Ginger.

I don't drive and i was able to get around pittsburgh pretty easy, its a pretty compact and even walkable city

hmmm, i dunno, i've never really spent any appreciable time there, but i know someone who moved away from there in large part b/c she didn't have a car and it was a drag getting around...

xposts

in america, we call that "ginger beer".

ginger beer does too have souls

It actually tastes like Ginger tho which is awesome. And it makes you sneeze if you sip it from a freshly poured glass.

― also, that Christmas tree has a dildo on its head (Jesse), Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:39 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

all soda does this!

Vernors with vanilla ice cream is one of the best concoctions in the world.

Not all soda makes me sneeze like Vernor's does. It is a pleasant, sentimental effect.

Back to NOLA, despite the crime, poverty, horrible school system, and natural/manmade disasters, it's still a really fun city to live in. The food's fantastic (even the disconcertingly cheap boiled crawfish I used to buy in black plastic garbage bags from the vietnamese place down the street was solid), the music is both celebratory and ubiquitous, there are practically double the holidays of any other american city, and like Jesse said, it's just got a spirit to it.

yeah new orleans is ~magical~

its an enchanting 3rd world city, detroit et al is more soviet bloc

Those extra holidays are taken as seriously as others, too. It seems really easy to come up with an excuse to let out work early. When the Saints played their first home game after Katrina, I had to cancel an afternoon meeting b/c the organizations that were to attend were closing at 3:00. A lawyer friend said his firm was frequently closed during Mardi Gras buildup, as everyone had to be out to take their families to parades.

Yeah. More than half of my friends/coworkers called in sick every year on St. Patty's Day, too. I myself can wait until 5/6 to join the block party.

for some reason, my mom always bought me Vernors when I was sick (fizziness?). To this day, it remains one of my essential cold/flu placebos. Also, it totally rules. It is the only soda which, after opened, keeps its fizz for more than a day or two in a two-liter bottle.

The ginger in it would be good for nausea. And the fizz, too, I guess.

pillbox all over the money on this thread

new orleans is an open sewer, and it always has been... dunno why yankees are so predictably delighted by that shithole

Oh TamTam, never change.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/LordRiper/Otros/ballin.gif

xxp

Please see posts above for reasons why Yankees (and Southerners and locals) love the place, warts and all.

new orleans is an open sewer, and it always has been... dunno why yankees are so predictably delighted by that shithole

― Princess TamTam, Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:50 PM (20 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

go hang out in a strip mall you inbred cretin

He's just bitter that the Saints have a ring.

Is PTT a Southerner?

go hang out in a strip mall you inbred cretin

― ice cr?m, Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:53 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

http://i322.photobucket.com/albums/nn407/milkohol/games/ironicatgrow2-6db.gif

i have no idea what thats all abt but how dare u frankly

I grew up on Vernors so when I first tasted normal ginger ale I thought it some weak-ass shit.

I also love Tittabawassee road though I've only seen signs on the freeway. Same with Big Beaver road, which is exit 69 north of Detroit

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uzte1XHg-o4/SSCfyUA5btI/AAAAAAAAAwQ/YJ1VW9ns5TQ/s400/Cornholio1.jpg
Tittabawassee!

Tittabawassee was a river was it not? When I lived in Midland, my cousins & I went down to the tridge* once and busked.

*popular name for the Tittabawassee bridge. IIRC you had to cross it in order to get to Midland from M-20...

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3470/nugecountry02.jpg

LOL

lol, was this posted yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKL254Y_jtc&feature=player_embedded#at=110

Also, should Belle Glade, Florida be on this list?
― cherry blossom, Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:35 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

Good call, Belle Glade is a totally evil little town.

Labelle is worse.

that whole stretch of road between Ft.Myers and WPB is horrible. I hitchhiked it once and was in a car accident, picked up by a tweaker, and then by a guy who thought I was a hooker.

Explain!

had to get from Sarasota to WPB and I didn't have a car!

also, was poor.

Belle Glade or LaBelle once had the highest HIV infection rate in the country.

I'm an epidemiology dork and I've heard about that (I think it was BG)! Conception Bay North in Newfoundland was a similar story: shit town with only a few people, but they've all got HIV.

its a p nothing town for sure, but on the other hand we all have aids so

really makes u think

kinda fitting that half the list is basically "homes of the Zodiac Killer and the Original Night Stalker."

Northern / Central California: serial killers are us! Don't forget Dorothea Puente and The Vampire of Sacramento, among others...

I would just like to quickly pop my head in and say thanks to everyone who has said that Chicago is not miserable, and does not belong on this list. Not even thanks, just... you're right. Chicago is fantastic. There's not another city in the world where I could live as cheaply, as efficiently, and as close to a giant, beautiful freshwater lake that's basically an ocean. The older architecture is astounding, and the buildings in the Loop span the entire history of high-rise buildings very neatly. Outside of the loop, the pre-war architecture is consistently amazing and thick on the ground, and surrounds you with that feeling, while you're walking down the street, of, "This is a good and permanent and real place," more than any city in America outside of New York or New Orleans. I live on a street that's had the exact same buildings on it for at least 60 years, and the building I live in is nearing 100 years old. That may sound silly to Europeans, but this is an old city in American terms. It's one of the most solid and atmospheric and assuring and comforting cities we've got.

But don't tell anyone. My rent will go up. Just keep talking about how the weather sucks, and we'll all be happy.

If I had two votes on the best global cities thread, Chicago woulda been my #2. I lived there for years and miss it every day.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Vallejo declared bankruptcy a few years ago, and has very few cops, and a high rate of foreclosures. On the other hand it is a short drive to Napa/Sonoma wine country, Marin, SF etc. and the climate is very mild. As long as you can avoid getting murdered it is a decent place to live.

decent place to die then too eh?

Yes, your dismembered corpse might be found at sunset near prime San Pablo Bay bird watching spots.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

http://www.calculateme.com/MySpace/background-images/say-yes-to-michigan.gif

I would just like to quickly pop my head in and say thanks to everyone who has said that Chicago is not miserable, and does not belong on this list. Not even thanks, just... you're right. Chicago is fantastic. There's not another city in the world where I could live as cheaply, as efficiently, and as close to a giant, beautiful freshwater lake that's basically an ocean. The older architecture is astounding, and the buildings in the Loop span the entire history of high-rise buildings very neatly. Outside of the loop, the pre-war architecture is consistently amazing and thick on the ground, and surrounds you with that feeling, while you're walking down the street, of, "This is a good and permanent and real place," more than any city in America outside of New York or New Orleans. I live on a street that's had the exact same buildings on it for at least 60 years, and the building I live in is nearing 100 years old. That may sound silly to Europeans, but this is an old city in American terms. It's one of the most solid and atmospheric and assuring and comforting cities we've got.

But don't tell anyone. My rent will go up. Just keep talking about how the weather sucks, and we'll all be happy.

― I am Woolen Man. The scarf and I are one. (kenan)

otm (can't wait to move back tbqf) though i would include san francisco in there w/nyc and nawlins too.

which onea you jerks voted for Sacramento? :)

I'd be interested, when I come over, to compare some of these miserable US cities to some places in the UK that I visited, which were so oppressively miserable they made me greatful I live where I do. Seriously the UK midlands is some bad juju and I dont know how people live there and not kill themselves.

(but I wont assume Chi is miserable, it looks like a snowy Melbourne!)

Who the heck voted for Chicago? I am not upset or angry, just curious, largely b/c I have never met anyone who hated Chicago for being Chicago (just, as I said upthread, for being a big city).

yeah idg Chicago rating in this poll at all

More for Cleveland than Bakersfield? Whatevs.

was just looking at my dads modesto childhood home on google earth with him tonight - hell be disappointed to learn his town didnt get any votes - that is if i could explain ilx to him w/o appearing deranged

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/us/23detroit.html

detroit lost more people than new orleans! crazy

Detroit Going to Hell: Should We Care?

stockton probably still is shit.

I'm super excited to be moving to chicago in like six weeks and was all wtf when I saw this, but comments here are comforting. The only other cities I've been to on this list are memphis, d.c., miami, and jacksonville. Jacksonville is obvious: it's all strip mall sprawl. Still, I had fun in my two days there. Memphis is certainly full of problems, particularly violent crime and racial tension, but it had so much character. It's easily my favorite southern city and I could even see living there one day. I don't have you have complete picture of America if you haven't been to Miami. Still, I wouldn't live there. D.C. is whatevs. I hung-out there as a teenager, but I didn't look at it with a critical eye then, so idk.

Atlanta is easily the worst city I've ever been to, but people who like cars and shopping malls think it's swell so whatever

and with all the negative press abt Detroit, it's kind of hard to believe that its only 15th

negative press is overblown tbh

I'm sure it is, but OTOH Detroit is the only place I know of where a friend had most of her wedding presents stolen from the reception along with the car she and her new husband were supposed to take to their honeymoon suite, so my perspective on it is possibly a little biased.

Memphis' violent crime rate was down 23.6% during 2010!!

http://www.memphiscrime.org/theresults

(unless MPD is jukin the stats)

Florida and Texas are the two states where I hear this kind of thing about specific towns:

Also, should Belle Glade, Florida be on this list?
― cherry blossom, Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:35 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

Good call, Belle Glade is a totally evil little town.

― kate78, Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:39 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark

I'm super excited to be moving to chicago in like six weeks and was all wtf when I saw this, but comments here are comforting. The only other cities I've been to on this list are memphis, d.c., miami, and jacksonville. Jacksonville is obvious: it's all strip mall sprawl. Still, I had fun in my two days there. Memphis is certainly full of problems, particularly violent crime and racial tension, but it had so much character. It's easily my favorite southern city and I could even see living there one day. I don't have you have complete picture of America if you haven't been to Miami. Still, I wouldn't live there. D.C. is whatevs. I hung-out there as a teenager, but I didn't look at it with a critical eye then, so idk.

Atlanta is easily the worst city I've ever been to, but people who like cars and shopping malls think it's swell so whatever

whoa, i am not a car person or shopping mall person by any means, but i really enjoyed atlanta when i was there. for me it exemplified things i really enjoy about the south-- a more deliberate pace of life when contrasted with, say, the n.e., strangers being genuinely friendly in a way that is not found so much up north, and just a refreshingly oddball cultural environment that seems to naturally incubate cool things

i enjoyed what little time i've spent in chicago; good luck! you will never lack for amazing food there.

miami is definitely fascinating, but i also felt kind of creeped-out there, like the place is just crawling with some seriously sinister organized crime shit

del, have you spent time in other parts of the South? I have mixed feelings about the South, I love some areas and aspects, and hate others, and Atlanta is solidly in the "hate" group. For me, Atlanta exemplifies some of the stuff I hate about the South: sprawl and and attendant dependency on cars and the attendant traffic and lack of walkability and public transit, ubiquitous cookie cutter national chains (restaurants, retail, coffee, bars) instead of unique local stuff, and a weak downtown. That last part may have changed, as I read about efforts to improve it, but I'm a little dubious.

On the "love" end of the South are places like New Orleans (of course), Charleston, Boone, NC, Wilmington NC, and even Myrtle Beach and surrounding seedy beach towns. Besides the obvious tourist areas, there are some things I like about Charleston, WV and Richmond, VA - they do have unique local feels, beautiful surroundings, and lots of character.

yes. i guess i just happened to be staying in a weird nook of Atlanta when i visited there, b/c i remember it being very walkable and there being loads of little locally-owned businesses. granted, this was like, uh, fifteen years ago. and i do remember the traffic around the city being a mess. and my friend who lived there recently and loved it happens to be one of those people that just loooooooooves driving...

hate those people so much

atlanta's downtown sucks, but who gives a fuck. there's good parts of the city and bad parts... does it matter if they're downtown or not

Oh yeah. I think I voted for Chicago, because that one time I was there, people kept getting in my way on the sidewalk. Also the whole new parking meter and museum price fiasci.

Detroit is badass.
All yall haters should reveal yrselves so I can swing by & burn yr houses down

Chicago is a miserable, chickenshit shithole. I was just there recently and no one has any life in them anymore. People just don't really care about anything there, they live in a beautiful city but are too selfish, narcotized or lazy to give a shit. All they do is fret about their futures and their retirement.

Gorgeous city, awful people.

it must have been very tiring for you, meeting every citizen of chicago like that

Someone who grew up in a neglected part of the city might feel that way, yes.

Sorry you're so quick to react and take what someone says too seriously.

i live in chicago and pretty much all i do is fret about my future so otm

i live in chicago on earth and pretty much all i do is fret about my future so otm

I'm happy someone finally posted reasons they hate Chicago. I don't see where they're coming from at all, but still interesting.