American Culture and the DUI

Following on from discussion here:

HELP A FELLOW ILXOR: My brush with small town corrupt cops this weekend.

Fun fact: in the southwest, DUIs are called DWIs. And the DMVs and called MVDs!

http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/2010/08/02/arcade%20fire%20the%20suburbs.jpg?1280760687

Given a few of the comments on the other thread, I'm probably going to start a shitstorm by saying this, but the "oh if only I had public transportation options I wouldn't have to drive drunk" excuse fills me with near incoherent rage. Entitled bullshit, tbh.

It was called DWI in New Hampshire when I was growing up. No idea if they've switched terminology.

There was a substitute teacher who got arrested for DWI on his moped.

in maryland we have both DUI and DWI

"oh if only I had public transportation options I wouldn't have to drive drunk"

Haven't seen anyone actually saying this. Maybe you meant off this board.

Right, no one was coming out and saying that directly, but it seemed like an undercurrent a couple things people were saying.

I have drank plenty in small towns with shit transportation systems. Either drink close to home (so you can walk home), drink early in the day before the buses quit running, or make sure you have the $$$ for a taxi. Inconvenient if you like to go to ragers out in the boonies that end at 4 a.m. I guess?

I hope people still say "rager."

Hahahah buses and taxis, right. Not disagreeing w you but

?

I think we should also maybe be talking about local policing as much as people's actual drinking habits. Does the rate of DD-ing vary wildly between, say, Knoxville and other parts of the country, or is the enforcement the greater variable?

xp Small towns have buses and/or taxis??

...yes? I mean Las Cruces did. Idaho Falls did.

Was just thinking about this the other day when I drove by a bar in a "suburban" but still within city limits, part of town that is basically inaccessible except by car. I mean, no public transport, no bike lanes, no fucking SIDEWALKS in the area. You have to assume that unless people are going there for one drink only, basically everyone leaving that parking lot is breaking the law. Personally, I just avoid places like this and am grateful I live in a walkable city center, but it is a weird phenomena and I think municipalities do have a responsibility to provide public transportation options.

tbh, I have no idea if the town I grew up in has taxis or not

there was a Greyhound that went up to the Twin Cities twice a day but I think I only saw it once in the 16 years that I lived in that area

In Las Cruces buses didn't run past 7 p.m. but there were plenty of Saturdays I'd go out to lunch, have a couple beers, and take the bus home & have an afternoon nap. Pretty cool, I know!

it is a weird phenomenon

In my plains college town, with a big party school / major research university at the heart of civic life, there is one taxi. Not just one taxi company, one taxi. And haha at buses.

I try to avoid driving Thursday-Saturday evenings; it can get pretty nuts.

I actually only drank up until i got my driving license. When I did, aged 17, I was the first of my friends to get it and 'cos I lived in the sticks I was designated driver for about a year. Don't think it would have occurred to any of us that it was acceptable to drink/drive. Don't know if this was an England thing or a having very straight edge friends thing. By the time I got to university I was so used to not drinking I couldn't really be arsed to start again.

Whoah xp! Las Cruces and Idaho Falls are big cities!

Everyone else otm about bars being in the middle of nowhere with no other access EXCEPT by car. You can argue that everyone is free to bring a designated driver but c'mon, whatever governing body gave that place a liquor license has to know better.

In high school, I had friends who swore that they were better drivers after they'd been drinking because they were so paranoid about driving impaired, they drove under the speed limit and tried to pay extra attention.

I never, ever went to parties with these friends where I wasn't the one driving (as a general rule, I didn't drink at high school parties because lol only black guy at a small town party).

They're actually called DWI in MN too!

I automatically figure in an extra $20 and have a cab number handy when drinking in the Twin Cities, because DUH. There are OK public transport options in the cities themselves but they are all about the 9-5 commute. Many of my sister's friends don't like to use cabs because they feel judged by the Somalis who are driving most of them - which is totally racist, obvs, but did I mention the pervasive bigotry that runs through them like iron in taconite?

LOL you'd think the small town free market would spit up the occasional obviously necessary car service?

how do you guys say dui

I go "dewey" or "dooey"

obv. fuck you dwi heathens

dee-you-eye

"dwee," right?

The reason we don't have any good public transportation is everyone who doesn't live in one of the five biggest cities in America* thinks "haha buses." I am sorry for alleging some pop 400 town in BFE has buses or taxis but at that point, don't you live right by the watering post anyway? Or...have found some other way around drinking and driving?

* dept. of statistics I totally made up just now

ohio has OVI

I didn't drink or go anywhere with people who drank when I lived in a small town, so I have no idea about that, but I believe that young people there make a good effort to go out with a DD but I feel pretty sure that lots of people drive drunk at least SOME of the time, and that no one is taking the risk v seriously when the trip home is through cornfields/woods.

Some of them do have those! Well, at least one used to. When I was delivering pizzas in the shitty small Illinois town I lived in at the time I got to know a dude who started up his own service doing just that. Passed his card out at the 4 local town bars and got to know the owners and he did decently brisk business.

(way xpost now)

I have a couple family member who've been killed by drunk drivers

do states that only have DWI have just one level of impairment you can have?

One of my favorite people ever died drinking & riding his bike. So, drinking AND being in a super fast death machine that weighs over a ton...the idea scares the shit out of me.

When I lived in Oxford (MS), there was a brief attempt to run a shuttle service between campus and the courthouse square (hub for the town's most popular bars). I seem to remember there being some pushback against such a service even existing, because it just encouraged students to go out and drink. (The alcohol equivalent of abstinence-only vs. responsible use of birth control.) The service lasted about a semester iirc.

one dude's car had a blowout, he pulled to the side of the freeway and a drunk driver plowed into it a little later, killing his wife

15 years later a drunk driver plowed into his car head on and killed him and his 2nd wife and one of their kids

Wm, that's EXACTLY what I tried to say in prev thread, that public opinion about alcohol use just about mirrors public opinion about sex. Everyone totally in denial imo.

I lived in Moscow, Idaho -- no bus but it had a couple taxi companies AND a free drunk van for students. Plus everything existed within 20 minutes of each other... no excuse for a DUI there.

he had a couple other kids in the car who lived though

Viceroy, 20 mins' drive or 20 mins' walk?

Yeah maybe college towns are good abt at least having some options bcz kids like to drink? Except I guess Euler's town, which is laughable to even think of?

my town has population 50,000; as I said, 1 taxi; and my "haha buses" doesn't mean I think they'd be a bad idea, but that we don't have them & I don't see them coming in the near future.

I figure that just about everyone on the roads on a Thursday-Saturday night has at least some juice in their veins.

We have DUIs and DWIs. DUI is what they nail you with under .08 if they want, DWI if you're over. Automatic DWI charge if you don't blow, and from what I understand you cannot plead DWI to a lesser charge.

I live in the largest city in the US without any form of mass transit (and those in Fort Worth and Dallas are functionally useless). Taxis to get almost anywhere inside of town are $20+. While lack of options may not excuse drunk driving, the reality is that that situation a huge contributor to causing it. That these cities have no problem profiting from liquor taxes (and DUI/DWI arrests) but are completely unwilling to look at ways to mitigate the problem is the height of absurdity.

And telling people "don't drink" is about as effective as abstinence education.

xp 20 mins walk.

Sorry Euler ––– I assumed your town had buses but you were lolling at their existence (because it is an attitude I have encountered a lot). Looks like I made an ass out of me.

note: this is a town of almost 400k, that is over 4 times as large as Manhattan, with zero buses and no in-city taxi service (they're all dispatched from Dallas or Fort Worth, AFAIK).

yeah, this place blows me away w/ how minimal a civic apparatus we have---but we have a fuckload of bars! lots of students walk to/fro the bars so that cuts down on the drunk driving, but plenty of people who go to the bars there drive. It's a ridic scene.

xp harbl - I think California will add a reckless driving charge or some other higher charge to the DUI if you do something like drive drunk going 80 mph on the freeway in the wrong direction.

yeah but that's not the level of impairment/intoxication, that's driving style (er i can't think of the word, i'm tired)

I don't usually like David Harsanyi/libertarians, but he wrote this pretty interesting article a few years ago about recent "zero tolerance" pushes toward any detectable BAC when driving, and how MADD is behind this: http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/30/prohibition-returns

oh i don't know -- but i think in CA "reckless driving" is worse than a DUI

hmmm, Texas seems to have changed its laws. DUI is now only for minors with any alcohol in their system, DWI has been bumped up to a Class B misdemeanor

because i am a nerd this is what md has

DUI (driving under the influence of alcohol)
DUI per se (.08 or above)
DWI (while impaired by alcohol), not as serious as DUI, what you get offered if you don't blow which is why not blowing is a good idea even though your license may be suspended for 4 months or you can have the interlock for a year
DWI by alcohol and/or drugs
DWI by controlled dangerous substances

reckless/negligent driving are both fine-only

I don't understand the apparent ubiquity of having DUIs/DWIs on record that seems prevalent among people Nijoli knows, I always thought drunk driving was considered horrible and shocking and that "nice" people didn't do it. I don't know what I thought "nice" meant, exactly, and this is where class comes into it for me, but anyway, I'm surprised.

My home town, pop 2000, has zero public options, obviously, and everyone drives to the bar. There are only maybe 6 or 7 places that are open year-round and serve alcohol in the whole of two towns around both shores of the lake, and only 2 of those are "in town" -- the rest are all car-only access. Even the two that are "in town", only a tiny fraction of their customers live in town, most people live out in the boonies somewhere.

The issue isn't whether they drive there -- everyone drives everywhere! -- but whether they conscript a non-drinking person to drive them home.

You should all move to London. I'll buy you all a pint.

yeah i didn't know or know of anyone growing up who had a DUI. just one kid in my high school who hit my friend in her recently-parked car because he thought he should turn right into her driveway. she was ok.

in CA reckless driving means mandatory jail time. A DUI (first offence) is sitting in jail until you're processed and bail is paid.

Ppl in OH with high test amounts or multiple offenses get these shameful yellow license plates. From what I hear it's actually deterring people because it's really embarrassing to drive around with a bright yellow plate announcing that you were a serious drunk driver.

My dad and grandfather were roofers (and later general contractors), most of the guys I remember working for them had drug and alcohol convictions. Out of the current crop, our usual electrical subcontractor just got out of Texas prison for something involving cocaine, the stonemason did a year for his third DWI, and god knows what happened to the guys I don't know that well.

regarding iatee's comment on the other thread:

I am curious what the stats are w/r/t DUIs and class, w/ the other variables isolated.

cause it's not like rich people don't get DUIs, and when it comes to fines/lawyers/etc. it's generally going to be less of a burden for them. (which is why fines should be adjusted to income.)

Is Ohio one of those states where you get new license plates when you register your car as opposed to just a sticker?

http://www.dui.com/dui-library/ohio/images/plates.jpg

you have to do a special registration if you get slapped with the yellow plates

that's a serious dunce cap
i mean, you show up to pick up your kids from school with that thing? yikes. i think it's a pretty good deterrent in a state that really needs it.

$10k seems shockingly high to me, i think people pay $2-3k around here. has anyone on this borad had a dui and paid a lawyer to do it and want to say what they paid, i am curious

sometimes i think i want to be a dui lawyer btw, the pseudo-science of it is really fascinating

would you have funny tv commercials advertising your services?

maybe if i was that bad at my job that i needed commercials. actually no, never.

My sister's last DWI was a $300 fine and she was back on the road that day, having not driven in the six months between arrest and hearing. An old alkie lawyer who drinks in her local did her legal representation as a favour, as it was like one hour of work for him.

The minimum anyone I know has been quoted for taking a DWI to trial was $5k (while completely anecdotal, this is a dozen people), and the lawyers doing this were the kind who run ads.

yeah i don't know, my number was just a guess. i'll ask around.

http://www.bettercallsaul.com/

my mum had a dui. Minimum 2 years off the road.

how accurate an indicator of impairment is blood alcohol level?

The sort of prevailing average lawyer fee I recall in NC was something like $1000, but I would bet the was for a do-nothing lawyer who would just plead guilty and direct you to the clerk's office (as was mine). Definitely not for a trial.

Some countries, like Japan, have sufficiently low BAC restrictions that any alcohol consumption could put someone over. Thus the social norm has become driving = no alcohol. Might be preferable to the guesswork and flubbing that goes into these decisions, especially when they are being made by drunk people. The laws in Japan also make occupants in a car driven by a drunk driver accomplices to any crimes that occur, like vehicular manslaughter. Fines are also like $3,000-5,000 and people who are convicted are often fired by their employers.

our b/a levels are down to 50mpg which is one unit of alcohol iirc

yellow license plate is a genius idea

^agree. NOt only do they stigmatize, but they also serve as a helpful warning.

milo, I meant that 10k is a disproportionate burden, and there are certain people in this country who could consider it a mild nuisance (whereas it could basically ruin others). I remember reading an article about a Scandinavian DUI that resulted in some crazy 6 figure fine because they adjust their penalties to income. if one of our scando friends is reading this I'd be interested if they knew more on that.

seems like a reasonable way to deal with public fines in general but lol 'class warfare'

i remember that. It was an oil or record exec in ?finland?

(I was not only going to post about how class and race goes into who gets DUIs, I was going to start another thread for it. Good going, folks.)

Florida is about to change the law (or has?) to make breathalyzers required: you can't refuse to blow. Which blows. I may have told this story: years ago cops stopped me when I knew I was above the legal limit. I refuse to blow, so I'm cuffed and spend 12 hours in the hoosgau. A few days later my lawyer tells me that since I didn't blow the cops can't prove I was drunk other than erratic driving which could have been blamed on anything. My charges were dropped to reckless driving and adjudication withheld.

wait what are you saying blows the current law or the changes

I believe in most states you're actually dealing with two entities, the law enforcement policies and the DOT licensing policies. There's an overlap in that laws require you have a license to legally drive, but the transportation people determine whether or not you get that and having their own hearing system.

i have walked a lot of drunken blocks in my day. miles and miles and miles...

I'd say I've never done it but then I'd be lying. I implemented a system many years ago where after two drinks, I gave my keys to a friend and said 'don't give these back once i hit drink #3'. obv 3 drinks wouldn't do it, but once I hit that magic number i tend to not stop.

got away from it though, and used to pound gin and tonic like there was no tomorrow. one day I had way too many, and was about 30 miles from home, and Orlando has no reliable public transpo. smart thing to do woulda been to wait it out, but I decided I was ok.

I wasn't so much loopy as I was tired and I drifted in and out. and came out of consciousness enough to notice there was a firetruck in the lane I was in, completely stopped in front of me, right next to a car that was burnt to a crisp.

The ensuing moment was in slow motion practically, with me slamming on the brake to avoid the firetruck. In eerie fashion, the car stopped literally a pebble away from the truck.

Fireman saw it, and was incensed and came and yelled at me, but didn't suspect inebriation (just fatigue). I went home shaken up and scared and said I was going to never do anything that irresponsible ever again. But I did a week later (albeit not as bad).

Given my strong views on drunk driving, the cognitive dissonance was overwhelming, not to mention the guilt, and I had then realized that while I wasn't an alcholic, I wasn't able to control my intake in social situations, and that I often made bad decisions once I drank that much. So I cut out hard liquor from then on.

Not the right impetus for the solution necessarily, but it's kept me grounded. Plus I like beer anyway and I prefer that.

my (rich) drunken friends have purchased a (few) breathalyzers to sort out who's drunk the most. and maybe the cops' equipment is better, but that shit was wildly erratic in its readings.

i thought you were forced to take a blood test if you refused the breathalyzer? i'm sure states vary tho.

Florida is about to change the law (or has?) to make breathalyzers required: you can't refuse to blow.

California requires it too. You get fined/penalized if you refuse.

Some cities are getting warrants for blood tests when people refuse to blow.
Beyond that, here, refusing to blow is an automatic suspension and some other hassles.

how strict are bars about giving standard measures of drink? I never drove in the UK so never really thought about it that much, but I remember one time I ordered a glass of wine and they asked if I was driving before they just gave me the rest of the bottle (would've been more than one standard glass). Generally in pubs you get a standard measure when you drink. But in CA I notice drinks are WAY strong, and if you order a cocktail who knows how strong it's going to be.
I've always thought it way easier to just not drink if I'm driving but at least in the UK i'd know how many units I'd had.

how strict are bars about giving standard measures of drink?

not very, in the SF Bay Area

Not strict. Some bars have electronic meters that precisely control pours, but by far most do not, and drinks can very often be really heavy. Based on observations in Chicago, North Carolina, and New Orleans.

if y'all want to string up drunk drivers in the public square go ahead, just don't take away my heavy handed bartenders

haha

I solve all this problems by just drinking at home tbh. But then again I don't drive anyway.

The US transportation attitude is fascinatingly weird, to me - the disdain towards the idea of public transport in particular. Melbourne's fiercely proud of (and opinionated about) its public transport, which is so heavily used it's running into major problems in the last few years. And we have trains, trams and busses all over the place. And a large - but really badly run now - taxi service (its now all staffed by very new immigrants becz they cant get other jobs, and none of them fucking know where they're going).

I don't think I know anyone with a DUI - I grew up in the era when it just seemed like such a bad thing that everyone was terrified of doing it, and my friends didn't all drink so much that that there wasn't always at least one mostly sober person around, or we drank in peoples houses. I also lived in a place where you could probably get away with actually drinking a beer while driving if you were in the right circumstances. But people drove around a lot under the influence of other things all the time.

Viceroy, how long ago did you live in Moscow? I happen to know the nearby, less interesting college town pretty well.

The US transportation attitude is fascinatingly weird, to me - the disdain towards the idea of public transport in particular.

Because Americans think of it as something only poor people use.

if I didn't have to drive I wouldn't. driving sucks. only time I like it is on a long road trip w/ friends along a quiet stretch of highway, but that comprises like, what, 1% of my driving experience?

I never owned a car until I was 26 and started a new job that required me to own one. Now I drive everywhere. I usually live in small towns with no taxis or buses. Two years ago, I decided to have a few beers with guys from work, only to end up drinking way more than I had planed. My hotel room was only 5 blocks away so I decided to risk it and drive. I had to turn on a main street for only one block so I figured it was no big deal. I was unaware that my left turn light was out, and so when I turned into my hotel, I saw the police lights come on. I started to panic and put a piece of gum in the mouth, The first words the police officer said to me was, You can spit out what ever is in your mouth, I can smell the booze on your breathe. He never made me take a teat or breathe into that thing, but he screamed at me for at least 15 minutes. He then told me to go up to my room and never drive drunk again. I was so nervous that I threw up when he drove off. In the last three moths I lived in this town, the same police officer pulled me over once a week, just to check. I might have a beer with my food, but I never drink and drive now.

it's important to point out that even in small/medium sized cities that have a bus system, the idea that they'd have a bus at 2 am that could take you home is pretty silly. I grew up in a medium-sized city (200k metro area) that had more than a dozen buslines - looking at the schedule, the latest I could get from downtown to the area near my house on a weekeday? 9:45. on a saturday? 5:30.

ie transit systems that are set up for commuters don't work very well for partying unless you are a professional alcoholic

that's a really shitty bus system in that case. my hometown's got a similar schedule, but on the other that's a 15k community and not in the us.

no it's a pretty great bus system as far as america goes! left-of-center city w/ some money to burn on transit + reliable poor hispanic ridership base. I could generally get where I needed to go.

I mean this is a country that has a city w/ 380,084 people and 0 bus lines

what city is this and can we bomb it

I don't think I know anyone with a DUI - I grew up in the era when it just seemed like such a bad thing that everyone was terrified of doing it

That was the case in my high school (graduated in 1993) where even for the party kids, drinking and driving was simply unthinkable. I think it was seen as something that rednecks did. A friend admitted to another driving home after a and she caught hell for it. A few years later we were all drinking and driving out of "necessity."

xp - iatee OTM. Greensboro, NC, pop. 300K had a similar system with only 5 or 6 routes. (Just checked, they now have 15 routes, the latest runs till 11:30, 10:00 on Saturdays.)

yes...but we might want to warn milo first

(arlington, tx) xp

oh well shit thats where my inlaws live (p much), but its not like that area is unserved by mass tranit...trinity rail express runs right through arlington (from w ft worth to e dallas)

You have to assume that unless people are going there for one drink only, basically everyone leaving that parking lot is breaking the law.

This is a pretty good clue that the law is bullshit.

Attitudes are changing a bit, but really the attitude toward car ownership in driving in most of the country is that it's a necessity and a human right and the most basic of freedoms. For most people, it just doesn't scan that you could live a reasonable life without driving. And in a lot of areas, it'd be fairly difficult.

or that allowing bars in the middle of nowhere is bullshit

xp

In which US cities can you not own a car and not be a freak? NYC and Chicago, for sure. What about San Fran? Boston? Philly?

bison that's more park-and-ride commuter rail than a way to get around, isn't it? obv a good thing but not gonna allow many people to sell their cars.

If the law says you're too incapacitated to be allowed to drive after one drink, the law is bullshit.

What about San Fran? Boston? Philly?

yes to them, plus i guess seattle portland dc

Seattle and Portland? I'm very surprised.

People aren't going to blink if you live in Boston and you don't have a car but there are certain neighborhoods where it is hella inconvenient not to have one (hi dere areas of Dorchester, JP, Charlestown, Somerville). Generally speaking, if you don't have a car you live within 2 blocks of a major bus line or a subway stop.

DC is super frustrating because you SHOULD be able to get around without a car, but having one basically transforms and expands the city... into an impenetrable maze

sf has pretty embarrassing transit for a city as dense/left-wing as it is, but being 7 miles by 7 miles lets you get away w/ that, I just walk everywhere when I'm there. it's not weird to not have a car, but most people still do.

http://la.curbed.com/uploads/2010_02_commuting_to_work-diagram.jpg

bison that's more park-and-ride commuter rail than a way to get around, isn't it? obv a good thing but not gonna allow many people to sell their cars.

― iatee, Saturday, March 5, 2011 12:24 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

ya this is p much it, not a lot of dense housing near rail stations in the midcities (garland, arlington, euless, bedford, hurst, grapevine)...its like an endless sea of red robins and freeways and suburbans with jesus fish

an endless sea of red robins and freeways and suburbans with jesus fish

I kind of think I may start a thread with this title to document all the suburbs that no one can tell apart throughout the usa

SF is pretty great for public transit, imo. I can get anywhere without having to walk too far. Yeah it can be slow and I don't have to commute in rush hour but even compared to where I was living in the UK it's 10x better - cheap and you can find out where any bus is at any time..

when I was in the south of France a few years ago we stayed near a truck stop whose main selling point was that with your dinner, there was wine à volonté. I thought: this would not fly in the USA! But the issue is that American Culture tolerates/celebrates intoxication in a way you don't find so much in France. yeah yeah it's obvious but the discussion so far has mostly been about shitty public transit (which is a real problem!) but Kerm's talk of shitty laws brings up the other side, namely American attitudes toward alcohol consumption & how much is too much.

yeah I mean sf is relatively good but just sorta underachieving if you put it next to a comparably dense/rich euro city like amsterdam. I'm sure a lot of euro tourists show up and are like "hey let's take the train to the golden gate bridge!!" only to learn the dark truth about sf. I bring this up because that's what my french friend said when I was showing her around. also the rest of the bay area outside of oakland/berkeley might as well be LA. and most people live there.

euler, BAC limits are even stricter in france than in america

yeah I know but like in rural France I've never seen a cop, & granted I haven't spent *that* much time there, but like a month plus roaming the boonies over the years...so I dunno how seriously driving while drunk is taken there...i.e. if anyone's ever busted for it.

I think it's more that the general social culture does more to shame ppl out of driving drunk than in the US

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvTObqF3OD0

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35079-2004Dec29.html

here's the best I could find on the issue, doesn't seem like there are really great stats? bottom line: american should switch the drinking and driving age limits.

totally! xp to DJP

my father is from South America, & in his country he tells me that when you go to a bar, it's considered an insult if you can walk out on your own. There's something of that in some drinking cultures in the USA, I think. Re. the DUI, in this South American country cars are a lot less common than they are in the USA. We've got the lethal mix of valuing hard drinking & of having driving be the main way to get around.

ugh, fuck anyone who pressures someone to keep drinking as an honor thing. I hope they die without procreating.

those seem like conflicting sentiments

what is the deal wrt drinking & driving in Australia/New Zealand?

There's a lot of desert, the main cause for auto crashes is hitting kangaroos.

in NZ drinking is a huge, huge problem. it's a cultural thing, definitely. drunk-driving is really stigmatized, to a certain degree, and heavily cracked down on, but the problem isn't going away anytime soon.

the father of one of my ex-BFs was/is a raging alcoholic, but a v v wealthy one. at one point he had 15 drunkdriving charges, and he hired a high-profile lawyer who pretty much got him off all charges. this is a guy who was infamous in our city for his drinking/driving. and he drove a bright yellow hummer (the only hummer in the entire city). in the 3 yrs i dated his son, i don't think i ever saw him sober.

huge xp but

If the law says you're too incapacitated to be allowed to drive after one drink, the law is bullshit.

― Kerm, Saturday, 5 March 2011 18:26 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

the point isn't 'you can still successfully operate a motor vehicle!', though; it's that it's preferable if everyone on the road is able to react as quickly as possible to whatever happens in front of them. the reason not to get drunk before you get in your car is that people are douchebags and you should be prepped so you can react when one of them veers towards you. am okay with insisting on sobriety from the people who are driving machines that kill bunches of kids every year, etc.

I also back the idea that all operators of baby threshers should be sober (the better to enjoy the screams)

lol

so we're all in agreement, SUV drivers must be sober

To be a lot less oblique: the problem isn't that kids are killed by cars, it's that PEOPLE are killed by cars. My brother was 24 when he was run over and it was pretty fucking tragic with repercussions that we are still feeling as a family 23 years later. I realize this is basically my own mountain of Samsonite and it's not entirely fair to dump it on others but, aside from specific situations that really are pertinent to kids, framing issues that affect everyone regardless of age as "but think of the children!" comes across to me as unhelpful, dismissive towards adults and manipulative. I get that it's a valid argument but my personal history really makes it rub me the wrong way.

(to make that whole outburst even less appropriate, I am pretty sure the guy who ran over my brother was tired, not drunk)

hey, i'm sorry - i'm being reductive i know; i think i threw in an etc to try to get at the idea that there was an iceberg, there. i almost think that's part of a weird, other issue, something to do with what stats sound like when they're stats and not people. i can't imagine, DJP.

but yeah my bad & i agree it's a weird one to try to make more emotive w/'kids'.

I don't think it's less appropriate dan! on of the themes of this discussion is that alcohol isn't the only thing that

but yeah I've never thought of this as a 'think of the kids' thing, kids are pretty sheletered these days and are probably more likely to die in a car than outside of one.

er

'isn't the only thing that can create insanely dangerous drivers'

don't mind me guys, I had to come into work today and am being emo

I'm not talking about getting drunk and driving. I'm talking about DUI laws. A BAC of .08 is not "drunk" by anyone's standards except a MADD prohibitionist nanny - oh look it's the sad mommies who got these laws written in the first place.

yeah that's the thing, it's not about being 'drunk' it's about having a substance affect your response rate when publicly operating a dangerous object that requires a fast response rate. and yeah, .08 will do that.

Do most people in SF really own cars?

I think most ppl in every US city own a car except for NYC

Parking garage costs and street parking in San Francisco proper looked like a nightmare. I assumed it was similar to NYC - if you live in the outer Bay Area/boroughs you might have a car, but inside of Manhattan or San Francisco it's just the very-privileged.

http://la.streetsblog.org/2010/12/13/density-car-ownership-and-what-it-means-for-the-future-of-los-angeles/

0.59 per person, I meant 'most' in a >50% sense rather than 'overwhelming majority'

oh hm that's 'urbanized area' it must be less in sf proper. let me look. I coulda sworn it was >50 tho.

http://sf.streetsblog.org/2010/12/01/car-free-households-in-san-francisco-above-30-percent/
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/01/three-kinds-of-lowcar-city.html

I guess the cars per household stat is probably more relevant than cars per person cause sf has lots of one car households

oh thanks, i was just going to ask how to find that stat for baltimore

Surprised to see Chicago higher on the list than SF (barely), it seemed harder to get around in via mass transit only.

That's one thing I really liked about SF's bus system vs. Chicago and NY buses, it was very easy to understand from an outsider's perspective, most of the bus stops had a ticker telling you what was arriving and when, the routes mostly made sense on a grid pattern. It was slower than the L or subway, but no slower than the buses.

Lots of factors affect reaction time and safe driving ability, and none of them are as stigmatized or potentially life-wrecking as getting a DUI. From what I've read, driving 10mph over the speed limit is several times more dangerous in terms of decreasing reaction time and increasing the odds of an accident than driving around with a .08 and people do it as standard procedure.

why don't we just cut tot he chase and admit that most ppl here drive like shit regardless of external factors

yeah so we should give equivalently large tickets for that too, you are coming up w/ some good ideas here kerm xp

Driving 3000 pounds of steel at high speed in amongst millions of of 3000 pound chunks of steel dangerous, news at 11

Most people are so bad I'm not sure a 6-pack could make them any worse.

I kind of don't understand why we need a special category of offense for driving while intoxicated, anyway; it's kind of like the hate crime argument all over again in a different sphere.

milo: sf's greater downtown area is pretty congested and parking is a bitch, but the outer regions of the city aren't in the same way, and there is enough street parking / driveway parking - and most people who own cars are gonna live in those parts of the city. it's not like manhattan which is congested head to toe.

Surprised to see Chicago higher on the list than SF (barely), it seemed harder to get around in via mass transit only.

chicago's carless people are probably less likely to be carless by choice though because of poverty, that's what the guy is saying

really good blog btw

I feel like there should be categories of negligence that make things worse for you if you actually cause an accident (oh, you hadn't slept in 20 hours? Oh you're on meds? Oh you're drunk? Oh you were doing 90 in a 65?), but the idea that we need to throw the book at some random dude in a checkpoint as a deterrent because of something that we think statistically might have been more likely to happen in hypothetical stat crime future time is bullshit.

I think there's something to be said about individualism/libertarianism/general distrust of government, especially in rural areas (I am thinking of places like where I grew up and where my family still lives, and drawing on their attitudes for this) and drunk driving, but I think I've lived in the city too long and been hard-line anti-drunk driving for too long to really articulate it.

There is always this, however: http://www.getmadd.com/.

(I don't want to derail but as a carless Chicagoan, I can say that it is pretty easy to get around Chicago w/out a car, although it does require you to make choices about where you live based on access to public transit, and we do make good use of I-Go cars a couple of times/month.)

And if you can actually pull off driving 90mph for 20 hours straight on benadryl and High Life then more power to you. Some people are just more talented than others.

yeah those people tend to die in really talented ways

Like Nz we have a p massive drunk culture and a lotta drink driving sure. Used to be hell worse but we've had decades of strict BAC laws. If yr over .05 you get charged and demerits taken off yr licence(no jail time fr minor offences I don't think). We have booze vans all over that flag ppl randomly. Large, gory ad campaigns on tv with ppl smashed to bits in cars. It's helped, but australia is still a boozy country like wo.

idk about everybody else but i think kerm is one step away from saying 'drinking and driving, what's the big deal?'

personally my driving skill tends to go off-kilter when i'm even just at .04

maybe you just aren't as cool as kerm??

yea, think that's it

if i had more mojo i could drive while getting head and trimming my toenails naked

BAC limits by country (wikipedia)

doesn't reveal how strictly they're enforced, but it's worth noting that just as far as BAC limits go, we're in a group w/ the least strict countries.

Zero tolerance, (It is illegal to have any alcohol in your blood while driving in these countries.)
Since there is always some amount of alcohol even in non-drinkers' bodies, they have to have some legal guidelines for determining what behavior is illegal. Often that guideline is something like impairment in driving to any degree that can be shown to be probably caused by recent alcohol consumption.
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Romania (beyond 0.08% drivers will not only receive a fine and have their license suspended, the offense will also be added to their criminal records.)
Russia
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Brazil
Bangladesh
Hungary
Canada - new drivers undergoing graduated licensing in Ontario, Quebec, Northwest Territories, Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick; drivers under the age of 22 in Ontario[9]

0.02%
China
Estonia
Poland
Norway (road vehicles)
Netherlands (for drivers in their first five years after gaining a driving license[10])
Sweden
Puerto Rico (for drivers 18–20 years old)[11]

0.03%
India (note: In the State of Kerala, a policy of zero tolerance has developed.)[12]
Serbia
Japan[13]
Uruguay[14] (0.00% for truck/taxi/bus drivers)[15]

0.04%
Lithuania (0.02% for drivers in their first two years after gaining a driving license)
Canada: Saskatchewan - provincial offense

0.05%
Argentina (0.02% for motorbikes, 0.00% for truck/taxi/bus drivers)
Australia (0.00% for Australian Capital Territory learner, probationary & convicted DUI drivers (changed down from 0.02% on December 1, 2010), 0.02% for truck/bus/taxi, 0.00% for learner drivers, provisional/probationary drivers (regardless of age), truck and bus drivers, driving instructors and DUI drivers in all other states)
Austria
Belarus
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada: British Columbia, Ontario, Manitoba, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia - provincial offence
Costa Rica[16]
Croatia
Denmark
Finland
France (0.025% for bus drivers)[17]
Germany (0.00% for learner drivers, all drivers 18-21 and newly licensed drivers of any age for first two years of licence; also, if the BAC exceeds 0.03%, driving is illegal if the driver is showing changes in behavior ("Relative Fahruntüchtigkeit"))
Greece
Hong Kong
Iceland
Ireland (0.02% for learner drivers and professional drivers) [18]
Israel
Italy
Latvia (0.02% for drivers in their first two years after gaining a driving license)
Luxembourg
Macedonia (0.00% for drivers in their first two years after gaining a driving license)
Netherlands (0.02% for drivers in their first five years after gaining a driving license)[10]
Peru
Portugal
Slovenia (0.00% for drivers in their first two years after gaining a drivers licence, drivers under 21 and common drivers, such as buses, trucks...)
South Africa
Spain (0.03% for drivers in their first two years after gaining a driving license and common carriers, such as buses, trucks...)
Switzerland
Thailand
Taiwan
Turkey

0.08%
Canada[19] - criminal offence
Malaysia
Malta
Mexico
New Zealand (0.03% for drivers under 20)
Norway (legal limit for some sea vessels)
Puerto Rico (for drivers 21 years and older)[11]
Singapore[20]
United Kingdom[21] (0.02% for operators of fixed-wing aircraft)
United States

A friend of mine, someone of high social estate as it were, recently got a DUI. I was pretty surprised because it seemed like such a low class thing to get, but on the other hand this person has a problem with the sauce & drove whilst on it so it's not like it came out of the blue. It's fucked things up royally for this person, since it's costly not just for fines but also for losing driving privileges. Though I'm surprised at my thought that a DUI is a low class thing to get: why would I think such a thing?

Because cops pick on poor people.

Yeah, I guess that's probably it. I have lots of non-poor friends who get speeding tickets & other moving violations, though. tbh I only know two people decently-ish who've gotten DUIs & both are upper middle-class+, but both have spent time in rehab for alcohol.

strange how la ilxors haven't been contributing to this thread ; )

lol

spent time in rehab for alcohol

poor people have a support group instead, it's called "drinking at bars"

Texting while driving, reckless driving, drunk driving: it's all wanton, anti-social behavior and shows a fundamental disregard for other people and whatever we have left of a social contract. Seeing people texting or talking on their cell phone while driving makes me furious. Hearing people bitch about getting busted by a speed camera pisses me off. Don't speed then! Fuck a drunk-driving apologist. I am far from perfect, but I know better than to do these things and have some kind of respect for the sanctity of life. I ride my bike to work and live in fear of these fuckers and it pisses me off.

I guess I should I add that I'm almost positive that the police officer who pulled me over had every intention of hauling me to jail. But when he asked about my out of state plates and I told him why I'm in Oklahoma, he just started lecturing me about what I had done. I was sure my life was about to end. But since then I've learned a lot of guys I work with were and continue to be pulled over while under the influence and are given breaks. I'm in no way saying this is justified in any way, but in rural america, there is a good ole boy system, that is just as frightening as the drunk drivers on the road.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110307/ap_on_re_us/us_distracted_driving

be safe out there

or buzza might have to.....

revive you!!

!!

i'll pick you up in the buzz-mobile

lol matt

just got home after driving down a busy street which two days ago boasted a checkpoint; I'd only drunk a scotch and a glass of wine, but, ugh, still terrified

http://lazyreviewzzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Welcome-To-LA-e1322884320377-150x120.jpg

dui decimal system

A few salient points and a whole bunch of stupid

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/04/opinions/wambach-driving-under-the-influence-opinion-cevallos/

which parts were salient and which were stupid

That guy is a straight up terrible writer, Ive read stories by him before.

The law here was recently changed to include drugs under the impairment testing. While I agree its a good idea, there's been some problems with it cz unlike booze, things like weed stay in your system for days after it's been had.

yeah he writes like he's on the high school paper

wow that article is horrible

btw non-poor people get away with or are barely sentenced for all kinds of crimes, and if you're in the right middle/upper class job that expands

there was a local man who must have had the worst drunken meltdown of all time and was in two drinking and driving accidents within 24 hours a couple years ago. he either wasn't supposed to be driving, or was supposed to be driving a vehicle with an ignition interlock, but he worked as a manager at a car dealer so he just grabbed a car off the lot

i worked in the vehicular homicide division of the da's office off somewhere. the laws are barely non-existent for drinking and driving crimes. i saw pictures of bodies that looked more like soup than humans, and people barely get 2 years in prison for stuff like that. long live car culture.

on the lighter side of things, an old guy was arrested on the other side of town a while back for driving his riding lawnmower back from the bar while shitfaced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qZtwJNjxk

was it this?

can't find the particular case, but this also happened in the same city: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2014/05/08/police-arrest-man-lawn-mower/8836745/

note that this dude was on a pretty busy street and it was right before rush hour

i feel like if this guy was writing an article on speeding tickets he'd have said "Most people don't even realize that the speed limit is only the maximum speed they are allowed to travel...and not a mandate".

also plenty of good reason for not having zero tolerance DUI BAL (ie meds/other factors that might trigger a non-zero but not intoxicated reading) that doesn't involve law enforcement not caring.

I almost got arrested for DUI (rightfully so) after totaling my car - p sure the last thing I was thinking was "man if only the law had been *more clear* I could have avoided this"

omg at that video

xpost to self, like I can tell you the whole reason why I drove drunk that night had everything to do with "I am knowingly being irresponsible right now and I am intentionally being self-destructive". real reasons people drive drunk = unlike crimes like robbery or murder etc, most people drink at one point or another and most people have cars. derrrp

Drunk

i worked in the vehicular homicide division of the da's office off somewhere. the laws are barely non-existent for drinking and driving crimes. i saw pictures of bodies that looked more like soup than humans, and people barely get 2 years in prison for stuff like that. long live car culture.

Fuck you, man, drunk drivers aren't like violent dangerous criminals who can't be rehabilitated.

I'm sure they'll be much less likely to drink again after the very therapeutic and educational environment of prison. God bless.

Fuck you, man, drunk drivers aren't like violent dangerous criminals who can't be rehabilitated.

My main issue is with car culture and the way cities/towns are designed, not people. I've driven drunk once or twice. I felt like shit about it, but sometimes you drink a little too much with friends or co-workers and the car's the only way to go. That's probably why the laws are so lax.

pretty sure I admitted elsewhere on ilx that during the absolute worst period of my life, I got arrested for driving while intoxicated, mercifully on a stretch of road where the only cars nearby were myself and the state trooper

so if there are any questions about the diversionary programs for people who were drunk but below the "this is way too drunk" limit, the court process, the required weekend lock-in counseling program (and the diversity of people there),, the months of monitored driving, and all that stuff, have at it

would actually be interested in hearing. months of monitored driving? how long?

ugh now this is gross: http://www.oregonlive.com/fifa-world-cup/index.ssf/2016/04/court_documents_reveal_that_so.html#incart_2box

not newsworthy in the least other than trying to shoehorn this detail in to imply that it's the latest in a series of 'deviant behaviors' when the drug use has fuck all to do with a DUI arrest a decade later. obv she's a public figure so the media will have at it, but just gross.

six, you have to stop in every once in a while to have the thing calibrated. only supposed to go to places necessary to your work commute, although you submit a list of what that entails and i imagine people who have to go multiple places for work can swing some leeway. i'm sure by now some places do some gps stuff? maybe not

who amongst us has not been part of a national women's sports team and tried some drugs xp

xpost wow. that is nuts.

just feel like jumping into this thread to say fuck drunk drivers before never checking it again, g'night

drive safe

really? dude it's drunk driving, you are lucky to drive a car at all xp

I wonder if, among a certain subset of people, uber availability in places with bad taxi service has helped this societal issue

then again, it might just be responsible people being able to get more hammered and just using uber

oh I get that, but it's just a bit diff than what they do here (probably why it's so scary to drive in FL).

for instance here, yes, you lose your license for a minimum of 180 days (maximum 1 year), but after you complete DUI school, they let you get a hardship exemption for business purposes if you apply for one. I don't think there's any monitoring of where you actually go although they do require you get an Ignition Interlock *if* your BAL is over .15 during the arrest.

don't feel like they're harsh enough here tho. I still can't believe they didn't arrest me as I got in a one vehicle accident w/ their wall (tho they didn't DUI test me, but probably had enough on suspicion given the gap of time between my 911 call and their arrival). one of many factors that scared me straight enough to cab everywhere when I drink now and to cut back on the drinking anyawy.