Why are men angry?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-28/why-are-men-angry-manning-up-author-kay-hymowitz-explains/

Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance. Plus, Jessica Bennett on the modern male's identity crisis.

About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it.

But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

Shocked? I wasn t. During the last few years researching this age group, I’ve stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging?

Check out the websites like names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor.com (“Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.”). Or read popular bloggers like the pseudonymous Roissy, a ferociously caustic dissector of female “sluttiness” and “shit tests” (attempts to manipulate men). There are dozens upon dozens of gurus and counselors who publish posts like “42 Things Wrong With American Women” while chat forums ruminate over how “American Women Suck.”

Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure.

So, is this what Susan Faludi famously called the backlash? Is it immaturity, as my own book seems to suggest? Is it the Internet as an escape valve for decades of pent-up rebellion against political correctness? Or, is it just good, old-fashioned misogyny?

A bit of all of the above, probably. But there’s another reason for these rants, one that is far less understood. Let’s call it gender bait and switch. Never before in history have men been matched up with women who are so much their equal—socially, professionally, and sexually. By the time they reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors—in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. They very reasonably assume that the women they are meeting at a bar or café or gym are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.

That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.

PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

this is one of the dumbest things I've ever read

i'm not even gonna read it

"Mancession"?

Next up: Men: Why are they so stereotypical?

Also, "Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates".

What happened to the men that got asked out for dinner? Did they suddenly cease to exist when it came to writing the second part of this sentence?

(Or paragraph, or whatever)

i've had women approach me. it isn't exactly a rare thing in this day and age.

The most important thing really is WTF is a Mancession?

norman lamont had one circa 1992

is this actually a joke article?

i'm not even gonna read it

okay i cracked

i mean all of these things have a kernel of truth to them — have definitely encountered the "underground current of male bitterness" using "the Internet as an escape valve for decades of pent-up rebellion against political correctness", and it's p.gross and weird and fascinating — dudes in total earnestness giving each other advice about the relative marriageability of different ethnic groups, based on how thoroughly their native cultures have been pervaded by modern 'feminist' ideas — etc etc

i haven't really reached a conclusion abt it and uh this article doesn't either so (shrug emoticon)

also what exactly is equality at the treadmill?

redundancy of stereotypically male manufacturing roles in first world economies? I dunno. Sounds dumb.

i think the problem w/r/t dating is more just a general breakdown of social norms and customs that traditionally governed the process, i.e. no one knows what to do now, what is or isn't acceptable — could any of us explain "the system of modern dating" to some hypothetical alien anthropologist, in the same way that a victorian could presumably describe the etiquette of courtship?

and so but, the fact that women end up playing the "gender bait and switch" is kinda just a consequence of the fact that 'gender' no longer has a consistent significance across this whole social field

also, can I just take a moment to say: "gender bait and switch", lol

I think its probably about sports and like the WNBA or something I don't know -- treadmill talk

also what exactly is equality at the treadmill?

― tehresa, Saturday, 5 March 2011 18:19 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

redundancy of stereotypically male manufacturing roles in first world economies? I dunno. Sounds dumb.

― Achillean Heel (darraghmac), Saturday, 5 March 2011 18:20 (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this was an xpost gueass at 'mancession fwiw. i have no idea what equality at the treadmill is- women being as good at sports/whatever?

like, i mean, i go to the gym and there are men and women on treadmills and there does not appear to be any kind of power struggle going on so shrug?

haha

i think it's when there's only one treadmill left and you have to fight over it? dunno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ZJMYqEUV0

can someone mansplain this 2 me

"Thus it shall come to pass that the workers, confronted with that still greater trauma of obsolescence in the machine age, will come to love their treadmills, and fall at the feet of the mill-owners lest they be taken away."

Engels, 1846.

engels otm

I blush to think how I had always attributed that quote to Herbert Hoover!

http://www.bundyology.com/nomaam2.jpg

Unless I was attributing it to H.G. Wells, which was probably just as daft, in hindsight.

bourgeois stairmaster

I wonder if when authors research and write articles/books about these matters if their observational data is solely collected from buildings that have a sign that says "Phi" in it somewhere.

don't they call things like this "trend pieces"? And expect because they assert that they are covering a trend that everyone agrees that this is a trend because they say it is, as opposed to "six guys on a message board ranted about this thing"?

i call them shit pieces

we're angry cause of bullshit meaningless pieces like this

so you're not completely over the poop thread era?

don't go visit the love shy forums

you will be v disturbed

i would assume that since it's an internet forum for shy people, that there'd be a bunch of passive aggressive bullshit.

that's very big of you sarah :rolleyes:

I agree. They seem to be devoid of emotion. They just pump and dump men like there's no tomorrow. I am not into that type at all. What happened to all the ladies? I don't hate all women, I just hate the way they behave. What's the point of being with a woman if they all act like men, anyway?

sorry, i shouldn't have singled out shy people there -- you can just mentally "strikethrough" that phrase.

I hate them and how they fake niceness and being virtous around you but just turning a corner you can see the same women slut it up big time. So it depends what kind of men are around, if you are a nice guy with no asertive personality then they will tell you stories that no man ever touched their hand, but if you are a badboy asshole oo get naked and get a free blowjob.
so they reek hypocricy and contempt towards shy guys like me. So I have to like them just because my biological urges want to fuck them? No I passed that thereshold long before, hatred towards them is posession of my soul, a part of me in other words.
and one other thing is some douchebag guys also feel contempt towards me but at least they dont pretend to be nice around you, you know from their face what they are thinking about you. a douchebag is a douchebag everytime. but for women no way you can understand the degree of manipulation, they are sinister creatures all the way.
Hope starting from my fucking mother they all get what they deserve in this fucking world.
End of the rant.

http://reborn.thermetics.net/img?i=http://images.colonies.com/images/emoticons/emoticon_rolleyes.gif @ sarahel

____________________________

http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/userinfo/cfangel.gif free oink signup codes http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/userinfo/cfangel.gif

This peppermint winter is so sugar sweet

idgi

always kinda curious why these self-professed "nice guys" who think the assertive asshole guys are getting free blowjobs dont just become assholes themselves? (beyond the type of asshole they already are, of course).

is it just ressentiment or self-loathing being re-directed? seems like an awful lot of psychic energy is being expended to preserve a certain mode of behavior that they also recognize doesn't get them anywhere...

men are angry bc their fav sports team lost amirite ladies???

xp - they don't seem very "nice" to me based on those posts that mandee quoted

also this "trend" is kinda interesting to pair with the "women are being forced to date douchebags" trend of articles appearing lately.

oh i agree i just think "nice" is a code word for something else here. not even sure what.

"passive aggressive douchebag"?

like these guys seem like douchebags that fail to act on their internal douchitude.

The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete.
The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete.
The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete.
The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete.
The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete.

ooh, good eye for the typo - nakh!

the only guys i know who are particularly down on the Modern Woman are some of the guys i used to play magic the gathering or quake with in eighth grade, who did admittedly probably suffer a lot at the hands of teenage girls who didn't really have a sense of their own emotional strength or other people's emotional fragility (being understandably distracted by the simultaneously-true reverse) and only knew that kids who played magic the gathering were not all that exciting to them. anyway some of these guys now have tech jobs that get them large paychecks (relative to, say, mine) and can thus get laid with some regularity, but seem to mistrust and despise the girls they sleep with and see sleeping with them as some kind of victory over the girls, like they are putting one over on them or tricking them into doing something unpleasant, which i mean i am not a psychologist but that seems pretty nakedly self-loathing. it is weird, when i see them. they always want to tell me how to Handle Women.

the forum users of ameria are angry, and not just about the price of gas or the fall tv season. 'these trend pieces are basically designed to whore for pageviews', they cry. time was, americans would be prepared to trawl thru pages of text for one golden quote of lol to repost to their favorite internet forum. no more! in an age of 24 hour mumblecore cable channels and the new panda bear rar downloadable in seconds, forum users say they 'have no need for shitty trend pieces'.

lol nakh

one golden quote of lol
one golden quote of lol
one golden quote of lol
one golden quote of lol
one golden quote of lol
one golden quote of lol

PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.
PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.
PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.
PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.
PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.
PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

but what about the bloggers? one blogger we spoke to who preferred to remain anonymous, was 'cautiously optimistic' about the prospects for trend pieces in 2011. 'where i'm from, people still read trend pieces. a single trend piece can provide upwards of thirteen tons of rebloggable content'.

and yes "nice" is code for "passive". one of the reasons i thought the scott pilgrim movie was so great was that it took the Michael Cera Nice Guy and heaped abuse on him for two hours re: the utter solipsism of his Niceness. seriously kind of chilling line in the right frame of mind: "oh god. so alone."

how do they measure that?

LOOOOOOOL

also 'ameria' SMH.

when does Whiney get unbanned again?

the only guys i know who are particularly down on the Modern Woman are some of the guys i used to play magic the gathering or quake with in eighth grade, who did admittedly probably suffer a lot at the hands of teenage girls who didn't really have a sense of their own emotional strength or other people's emotional fragility (being understandably distracted by the simultaneously-true reverse) and only knew that kids who played magic the gathering were not all that exciting to them. anyway some of these guys now have tech jobs that get them large paychecks (relative to, say, mine) and can thus get laid with some regularity, but seem to mistrust and despise the girls they sleep with and see sleeping with them as some kind of victory over the girls, like they are putting one over on them or tricking them into doing something unpleasant, which i mean i am not a psychologist but that seems pretty nakedly self-loathing. it is weird, when i see them. they always want to tell me how to Handle Women.

― difficult listening hour, Saturday, March 5, 2011 2:58 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this feels otm and basically most people of both sexes can be real assholes

I think there is a point to be possibly made re:depictions of sex and sexuality and male identity in popular culture, which surely play into these dudes' delusions or insecurities or whatever you want to call them. like, I don't doubt that there are boys out there who, encountering a Maxim magazine or w/e at the wrong moment in their emotional & sexual development, might come to the conclusion that sex is something horrifying and vulgar, primarily had by macho jerks, with contemptible sluts.

the 'duke athlete' reference is deliberately placed for bitter lols / trolling rite? cuz that rape case got coverage even in the uk

think it could also be a reference to the (more-recent, but maybe not a story over there?) incident involving a female duke student who put together a powerpoint documenting various athletes with whom she had casual sex and comparing them on... various metrics

emailed to some friends, leaked to internet and went viral, etc etc

like these guys seem like douchebags that fail to act on their internal douchitude. be handsome.

― sarahel, Saturday, March 5, 2011 2:53 PM Bookmark

xp some of those men were angry iirc

haha

xp - i think it's less about looks and more about sincerity and confidence

like - an asshole that is honest about being an asshole is more appealing than a guy who presents himself as "nice" but underneath you can see that he's really an asshole.

things i know abt duke university

sometimes invoked by ilxors as placeholder for upscale frattiness
sex scandals
sex virals
fredric jameson

my undergrad academic adviser is a prof there now, too.

Dont forget coach k

there's probably some word for having contempt for the same thing you desire, possibly in german. anyway, gender politics in contemporary america = that word.

like - an asshole that is honest about being an asshole is more appealing than a guy who presents himself as "nice" but underneath you can see that he's really an asshole.

― sarahel, Saturday, March 5, 2011 2:25 PM (3 minutes ago)

I can see that this person is easier to recognize and avoid, but do not get how this person can somehow be more appealing.

more appealing because you know what you're getting.

like - an asshole that is honest about being an asshole is more appealing than a guy who presents himself as "nice" but underneath you can see that he's really an asshole.

― sarahel, Saturday, March 5, 2011 3:25 PM Bookmark

I do agree with this, and I think the internet is useful for peeling back the mask on a lot of guys who think of themselves as "nice." But I also think that posture is often an outgrowth of being short/not attractive/unathletic/awkward/vulnerable as a child, so you wind up with this passive/agressive "niceness" papering over bitterness.

the worst ppl in the world are computer ppl who work for investment banks t/f

so you wind up with this passive/agressive "niceness" papering over bitterness.

otm

so you wind up with this passive/agressive "niceness" papering over bitterness.

this totally makes sense. being "nice" was a good way to avoid being noticed/bullied or whatever...and carries over into adult relationships.

other things nakh might care to know about duke:
- founded in early-20th c. by wealthy tobacco magnate with last name "duke" and first name I don't remember
- located in durham, north carolina (the same town as me! and at least a couple other ilxors) ((kind of southern but not deep-south))
- playing archrival UNC-chapel hill in highly anticipated men's basketball game later tonight (second of two annual meetings between the schools, which are both pretty consistently ranked in the top 10 nationally... so it's usually a fun game, and frequently ends with college students burning things in the streets)

(in case you need help picking a side in this fight, the respective mascots are "the blue devils" and "the tar heels")

cool, well i'm for UNC then, hope u effing bury those creeps

in conclusion: men aren't angry, they just want to talk about sports.* WHY WON'T YOU TALK TO US ABOUT SPORTS??????

*: or magic cards, w/e

my best friend is it manager for an investment firm. He's a lovely fella.

ya one of the nicest ppl i know fits that category, but in general nahmean?

http://image57.webshots.com/557/1/15/60/2797115600053728992TybTqm_ph.jpg

The Mascot! Duke! Soooo cute! But he drools a lot...

but if you are a badboy asshole oo get naked and get a free blowjob.

The most interesting word here is 'free'.

haha, otm

I like to think to think I have grown up into some kind of adequate male adult, but I still just want to talk about Magic Cards all the time really :(

(the idea that people who write angry things are somehow a representative & important demographic is kinda post-internet, though, isn't it? Like, in the past they were rightly or wrongly dismissed as "green-ink" savages and that was that?)

Angry men are angry because their brains don't work right and they need help with their neurotransmitter pathways. Also, bad diets and poor exercise lead can lead to glandular disorders where testosterone and adrenaline levels are not being properly regulated.

But angry men are often funny because sometimes their anger is righteous and if they are of a clever wit their anger can be an asset. For example, angry comics are probably my favorite kinds of comedians.

Guys who are angry at women for some half-real-mostly-made-up social trends and complete fantasy land ideas about what women think and believe as some kind of collective identity -- they aren't 'angry men.' They don't have the demon of rage sucking at their soul -- they are merely immature chucklefucks.

there's probably some word for having contempt for the same thing you desire, possibly in german. anyway, gender politics in contemporary america = that word.

Sour grapes.

why are angry women angry? Is that next week's article maybe?

i feel like their is female talk of wanting "a real man" a lot

yeah, it's called the 'breakup talk' ime

Immature chucklefucks ftw. What I don't understand is ... doesn't the male role in the relationship come naturally, despite whatever cultural aspects there are? Who I feel bad for is the women these guys are sleeping with (if at all), if they haven't figured that one out yet. Took me a while personally, but depression is a fucker. Still didn't blame it on some abstract, extra-personal "booger man".

Hope starting from my fucking mother they all get what they deserve in this fucking world.
End of the rant.

― homosexual II, Saturday, March 5, 2011 2:36 PM

lol 'mommy didnt wuv me'

Sour grapes

Man, those Germans have a word for everything!

sauergrapen

men will be men

starring matthew mcconaughey

why are angry women angry? Is that next week's article maybe?

― Achillean Heel (darraghmac), Saturday, March 5, 2011 6:20 PM Bookmark

I've been thinking about starting a thread for all those recent "Women: it's your fault you're single so go marry a loser -- " vs. "Fuck you, it's society's fault I'm single because society has failed to produce my ideal man" articles.

"Women: it's your fault you're single so go marry a loser"

This is the working title of Apatow's next project iirc...

ring of truth

See, e.g., http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brienne-walsh/an-open-letter-to-the-wom_b_829378.html

(more than a few angry comments about AMERICAN women, btw -- where did this meme come from?)

hendrix

the Guess Who, you mean

wtf sorry, not hendrix, eh. the guess who

well, quite.

not sure where i got that

Back to the angry man thing though, sometimes I wonder if we tend to push too much unrealistic "self-esteem" boosting on people and not enough reality. I think we sell people too much on fantasies that outward characteristics don't matter and then you wind up with resentful guys who can't stomach the fact that the handsome 6'2" football QB is dating prettier girls than he is. Let go of all that --> find someone within reach --> wind up much happier.

The reality I think is that a lot of people have no idea what they actually want in a relationship and from a partner... they have so completely let the prevailing milieu's opinions of beauty and status into their psyche that they are incapable of finding a compatible significant other or using their own standards of judgment.

However, the creepy minority on the internet of males who believe they are entitled to a mate; sex and companionship is like air and water and the fact that they are 'denied' it is as visceral to them as it would be to be denied basic human rights. But, that's how rejection feels - it hurts. Instead of accepting that that kind of pain is a natural part of the human experience, they seem to think they are experiencing something unique to their demographic -- and as American males they are being fucked over or whatever. Where the fuck does that shit come from? Is it just myopic self-pity or what?

could be as simple as narcissism, i think--and the siege mentality that it causes in people who suffer from it.

the worst ppl in the world are computer ppl who work for investment banks t/f

f - computer ppl at defense contractors much worse

kind of a toss-up

the economic game that is being misunderstood - and I apologize if this was brought up earlier and I missed it - is that these "recent female graduates" can easily opt to have a long term relationship with men who are older or even much older than their own cohort, while men tend to avoid this option.

So these young men who think they are in an unfair situation have a pretty simple out - start widening your options to include older women - and no real ground to stand on.

Otherwise put up or shut up, you're competing with a lot of other older single guys who DO make more money than your female cohort counterparts, and may be willing to be gentlemanly about it to boot.

if I ever get around to reading the rest of the collected "ask an economist" columns I'm sure I'd find one where Harford already ate this Hymowitz character's argument for breakfast like back in 2003

good point, buuut- a lot of these angry forum guys aren't really on the market, just sitting around stewing in their own self-loathing/depression

Talking to these men in person is the worst. For me, anyway, as a woman. Complaining abt how a bunch of "trashy sluts" won't give you the time of day is not really going to get any sympathy from me. I also don't think it's "nice guy" behavior to think like that, insofar as it's not nice to think of women as people who are "withholding cumbags." These quotes are from a person I know, I'm not quoting an article or this thread or anything.

"withholding cumbags" seems kind of redundant

is cumbag of withholding some weird new edition D&D thing?

THREE GREEN MANA, TAP CUMBAG OF WITHHOLDING: Anger target man.

I think we sell people too much on fantasies that outward characteristics don't matter and then you wind up with resentful guys who can't stomach the fact that the handsome 6'2" football QB is dating prettier girls than he is. Let go of all that --> find someone within reach --> wind up much happier.

Well, the argument goes is that those football players have sex with all the hot girls AND when they can't for whatever reason have sex with a hot girl they have sex with averagely cute girls too... because they can. So when these *average* dudes spit their game at these average girls these girls don't give these guys the time of day because they are used to getting sexed by football players. This in turn makes average dudes bitter because they can't sex women of their own attractiveness level and it makes those mid level girls bitter too because hot guy doesn't give them the time of day after a few nights. So it's not just average dude that suffers from delusions of grandeur but these mid level chicks who suffer from it as well after they have been seduced many times by devil may care womanizers. Whether that's what it looks like at the dating level I'm not sure but that seems to be the gist of the argument.

how have we got this far without mentioning bill simmons yet

The reality I think is that a lot of people have no idea what they actually want in a relationship and from a partner... they have so completely let the prevailing milieu's opinions of beauty and status into their psyche that they are incapable of finding a compatible significant other or using their own standards of judgment.

OTM from what I've see in my life. Also, trend journalistic pieces are just pure cringe.

the weirdest Woman Conversations i've ever had have all been with guys who've mentioned "leagues" or "ladders" or "levels" to me when i was just drunk and/or ambiently irritated enough to call their very seriously regimented worldview bullshit, and some of them get really really intense like NO LEAGUES ARE A VERY REAL THING, LET ME SHOW YOU HOW THEY WORK ON THIS NAPKIN and then they talk about The Friend Zone like they are alan greenspan talking about the laffer curve. i can't really say much to them because like i guess they've had sex with more girls than i have but i feel like they're taking something somewhere way too seriously and a bunch of other stuff somewhere else nowhere near seriously enough. anyway i guess the only girls i'm angry at are the girls who think that stuff's clever/cool/pragmatic but i've only met like two of those.

the weird thing is, maybe my judgement's off but i feel like i see really pretty girls with average guys all the time, including (not i guess that you should trust me on this) my own actual girlfriend, and actually i see average girls with really handsome guys pretty frequently too, so idk it seems like people can work this stuff out?

did you save any of the napkins?

oh weird I totally know some younger straight college-age guys who talk this way about girls, like about girls putting them on The Friend Ladder and once you're on that ladder it's the kiss of death and you're never going to get laid blah blah blah and I just found it kind of fascinating and bizarre and pretty corny. but theories have effects on and in the real world if enough people believe them, so maybe it becomes self-confirming for the kind of people who need these theories in the first place? not to be smug but it kind of made me glad to be a gay dude where sex-ing is (generally) handled differently

lol, ladder theory is something that I subscribed to when I was a frustrated 12 year old. it's the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. people who treat dating like a game, like THE game, like something to be analytically approached and analyzed, are the scariest people ever.

xp

nah but they probably didn't have anything on them except pyramids with jessica alba at the point. this was back when jessica alba was every one of these guys' idea of perfection; now i guess it'd probably be megan fox.

that kid with the rose is probably an angry young man today.

wasn't jessica alba like a nerd in hs?

sounds like some Donkey Kong/Mario Brothers kinda crap

"some of them get really really intense like NO LEAGUES ARE A VERY REAL THING, LET ME SHOW YOU HOW THEY WORK ON THIS NAPKIN and then they talk about The Friend Zone like they are alan greenspan talking about the laffer curve."

this was a true moment of posting greatness, thank you

i mean it just seems like some videogame logic misapplied to human relationships, and while there are probably some healthy applications of videogame logic to apply to human relationships - the climb the ladder to get to the cartoon girl at the top or shoot at the brightly colored blobjects to get to the level where the girl appears -- it just doesn't work that way.

dudes in total earnestness giving each other advice about the relative marriageability of different ethnic groups, based on how thoroughly their native cultures have been pervaded by modern 'feminist' ideas — etc etc

hope this led into a segue-way into the submissiveness of asian women

sarahel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eroge

xp - hope this led to these dudes driving their segways off of cliffs.

no wait http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bish%C5%8Djo_game

ok Seduction of the Condominium Wife is a pretty great title.

so is that like Sim MILF?

just found the origin of this "Friend Zone" stuff (I think):

http://www.laddertheory.com/

I asked the folks I mentioned upthread who swear by this theory and they confirmed that, yes, they stumbled onto this when they were about 14 years old and it has been born out by their own personal experience of dating, sex and friendship ever since

Dudes who put think girls put themselves in the friendzone never realize its that they put themselves in the friendzone

Although almost all guys who have not had the manhood stripped out of them know this intuitively.

yeah that site is hair-rising, isn't it?

i am one of the least angry men ever.

xp - i couldn't get past page 2 when it started talking about whores and how women only want to get with rich guys.

I was in Vegas with my wife and she met up with an old friend, this Colombian girl who married a guy from Green Bay, got a bunch of surgery, divorced him, then moved to Vegas. She basically told her that she has to do things like withhold sex from me and funnel money from my bank account to a "secret account" that she can use in case things go bad or in case she wants to buy something without me finding out, while I got to hang out with her new boyfriend, a short-ish muscular type who talked nonstop about fantasy football and cars...and I LIKE those subjects, but all he would talk about is how great HE was at fantasy football and how awesome HIS car was...later we played poker and he yelled at a 50-something lady who took his money; then I thought, hey you know, some women are evil, but the guys they attract deserve them!!

Dudes who put think girls put themselves in the friendzone never realize its that they put themselves in the friendzone

Well thats not exactly it is it? I mean, whether people who are friends actually connect romantically is far more complicated than all that friendzone bullshit. But I think there's a ring of truth to that for sure - ie:

Guy thinking "Man we connect so well and were so close but she doesn't seem romantically interested... she hasn't made any moves"

meanwhile...

Woman thinking "This guy is great, we are really good together, too bad he doesn't seem interested in me romantically -- he hasn't made any moves..."

Friendzone is just another word for "two people who are either not good at picking up hints or are too scared to drop them on each other" - it happens a lot. It happened a lot to me. I was terrified of coming off too strong and also terrible at picking up clues from girls. In my juvenile angst I was bitter and admit to thinking that I was undatable or I just wasn't the 'kind of guy girls go for' and was occasionally spiteful... but hey, then high school ended and I started having adult conversations with women from all over the world in college and realized that a lot of women are just as clueless as men as to how to attract a mate or start a relationship with someone you already know and like.

Then there is a very small minority of ladies who do like to have a cadre of men-friends who pine for them but they don't give a shit, and will play them all like so many cheap violins. I've seen this too but its very much a rarity -- its much more common the other way around. However, its been my experience that most people aren't into mind games or power and control (at least on a romantic level) - they just want someone to love who loves them back. That doesn't mean they don't have control/power/other issues - I mean we all have baggage, but I honestly think the vast majority of people don't play mind games or make lists or have ranking systems they follow or follow "the rules" of "the game" or whatever, they just have hang-ups and personal issues that get in the way of their romantic success and happiness. And unless you are like a total psychopath you can probably resolve those pretty well if you want to through meds/therapy/just talking to friends about stuff...

Which makes me think that yeah, the guys on loveshy either have the social and emotional development of a 15 year old and really need to get to a therapist, or they just are total psychos. The two aren't mutually exclusive, either...

I'm thinking that the real loveshy guys are too shy to even post on a loveshy forum, so the only guys posting there are psychos.

Isn't this friendzone talk just guys rationalizing why they're not sufficiently attractive to the girls they desire? I dunno, attraction is mysterious! There are no recipes you can follow. There are general guidelines: have your shit together, mostly. But beyond that, it's animal, it's chemical, our desire. Like I think these dudes want to turn the erotic into physics, & then when that turns out to be wrong, they get mad.

I think it's just easier for women to have friendships with men without wanting to fuck them.

Euler prob otm, but I am not in touch with this shit any more, so not qualified to give a reliable otm.

yeah, I think thats true frogbs... also a lot of man-women friendships start with the man attempting to start a romantic relationship with somone they find attractive, but then they realize that it wouldn't work out very well or whatever or that they are just better as friends --- the initial sexual/romantic attraction the guy had for the woman is still there.

a kay hymowitz thread! sweet

if you can stomach it, there's a roissy vs. hymowitz throwdown out there somewhere

I dunno, I just feel like gender roles aren't really necessarily a terrible thing in itself, stop me if I'm wrong here but I think any woman who is a legit 9 or 10 is not going to end up poor or lonely or miserable, and I think that's something that pisses a lot of guys off, knowing that beautiful women can be bitchy/catty/selfish and not really get their comeuppance because there's always going to be people who want them...men don't really get that kind of leeway.

Then there is a very small minority of ladies who do like to have a cadre of men-friends who pine for them but they don't give a shit, and will play them all like so many cheap violins. I've seen this too but its very much a rarity -- its much more common the other way around. However, its been my experience that most people aren't into mind games or power and control (at least on a romantic level) - they just want someone to love who loves them back.

& also a lot of people don't exactly want power-and-control but they like to be liked! I'm not advocating stringing people along, but I'm gradually becoming less and less irritated by people who are unwilling to shoot down crushes completely, and like having friends who fancy them (i've seen this more in men than women, but maybe that's the people i know).

men don't really get that kind of leeway.

haha no, my good-looking dude friends get away with the WORST shit all the ime

all the TIME

ime

I think any woman who is a legit 9 or 10 is not going to end up poor or lonely or miserable

This is...fucked up.

Er, yeah, they may be able to "get guys," but that's a fairly superficial accomplishment and no guarantee of satisfaction or well-being.

i do not like when harry met sally.

Referring to people as "legit 9 or 10"s in the first place legitimizes a scoring system that has no business in human interaction. So that's just off the bat. Then there's what jaymc said.

Third, the fact that "shy" guys with deep wells of bitterness and self-esteem problems who haven't managed to make themselves desirable to women of the world are looking at women who would be counted among the most beautiful in the world and are seeing these women as their natural/deserved mates, instead of real women that they know, has already been referenced itt and is otm in my experience. This is a thing that happens, people consume manufactured standards and think they'll be selling themselves short or somehow downgrading themselves if they veer outside of this approved pool.

i liked that series of essays on salon or slate or somewhere, about having an opposite-sex best friend, where the writer was all 'thing is, until recently it just wasn't common to have friends of another gender, so we don't yet know how workable that kind of friendship is, ps when harry met sally is bullshit' or words to that effect.

(xpost)

i'm trying find this book review i read once... the basic argument is that whole frame of this discussion is out of whack. relationships are not supposed to make you happy, and the whole concept of "fulfillment" in love/marriage is destructive, since marriage is supposed to be about negation (giving up what you might never get) rather than positivity (getting what you want). this was some hard christian ish if you're not picking that up. the writer blamed the whole concept of fulfillment on friedrich engels. it was a trip.

i dunno, might add something to the discussion here.

xpost
yeah, not that it's the most sympathetic quandary ever, but the people I've known who were very good looking and got a lot of, er, action as a result were often kinda damaged goods psychologically as a result, the "no one takes me seriously" thing can mean that they wind up overcompensating in other ways, or seeking out slightly cold/distant/emotionally abusive partners, or repetitively notching up conquests as they age and their own sense of the value of their looks slips out of view/focus/marketability before their eyes- not pretty!

I mean, "boo hoo", right, there are worse problems, but still . . .

also: "I think these dudes want to turn the erotic into physics, & then when that turns out to be wrong, they get mad." = truth bomb

the idea that there is a rational theory that explains why you are or are not getting laid in the first place is itself incredibly soothing to a certain sort of target audience- there is a logic, you can learn it, everyone thinks the same way really, all men are the same, all women are the same, etc. however seemingly Hobbesian or harsh its individual judgements of women as whores and men as boors or fools sounds, there is an obvious appeal to the (false) clarity which ladder theory peddles to its adherents- it gives its (mostly very young) male readers a road map to forbidding, alien terrain

oh and big xpost yeah that website is the one. i remember that website. always kinda freaks me out because if someone said to me "difficult listening hour are you a feminist?" i would say "yes i guess but let me spend ten minutes distancing myself from all kinds of stuff lumped in under feminism that doesn't sit all that well with me" but then i see something like everything on this page and i get like embarrassingly angry and then feel like an idiot because i am obviously being trolled AND YET.

goole, that kind of trip has been something that's been on my mind for years and years, because of my own relationship ish and stuff. I went through a whole phase where I was like, "Maybe it's more practical to be with someone who's just good enough, who's basically kind and you can live with" which led me to date someone kind but not very bright for about 1.5 yrs too long.

Historically people had much smaller pools to choose from, that is true, and yet somehow they still seemed to get hitched, mostly.

the idea that there is a rational theory that explains why you are or are not getting laid in the first place is itself incredibly soothing to a certain sort of target audience- there is a logic, you can learn it, everyone thinks the same way really, all men are the same, all women are the same, etc.

the thing is that all this ghastly stuff like ladder theory and "negging" or whatever actually does kinda work! like, you actually can successfully manipulate people into having disconnected sex with you; it is not that hard. it's just that when you're done you're in this dark hole of isolated hateful loneliness, and that's just what it does to you.

well, historically people didn't live as long, spent more time in manual labor, and had poorer hygiene, at least in Europe. Like, a woman who was kinda cute and came with a half dozen cows was totally sufficient.

the world is huge and does not have to be filled with people like this, so usually I think of them as "insane" and do not associate with them at all

yeah I kind of wish I could edit it because I can think of a lot of very attractive women who are not exactly happy, and I kind of realized that most of the hottest women I know do not exactly have a lot of friends, and I don't think it's necessarily because of their personality. all I'm really saying is that being attractive is so much more of an asset in women than it is in men, there's never really going to be full equality on any of this stuff

people believe in a lot of dumb shit I'm sure I do too

all I'm really saying is that being attractive is so much more of an asset in women than it is in men

totally disagree

yeah it basically has no downsides for men, not so for women.

you think it's the other way around? or that it's equally important?

being attractive is so much more of an asset in women than it is in men

i don't even know about this though? especially when you think abt the concept of a woman "losing her looks" and stuff like that.

i really don't know anyone who gets their way paid simply by being attractive, except i guess there are semi-fictional celebrity characters who do this? generally a lot of extra work is required.

I don't really know if "who benefits more from being 300% more attractive than average, allowing them the maximum amt of fucking with their dating pool's collective head" is a productive line of inquiry.

Oh, also xp C# prob otm.

I had a very attractive female "friend" who had no qualms about using her looks to get through as much of college as possible. Slumping grades? She would flirt with the professor, anything short of actually sleeping with them, and it usually worked. When she wanted a nice dinner out, she just "allowed" (her term, not mine) some random guy to take her out and buy her dinner. She also had a series of older men that pretty much stalked her, but she tolerated it because they often sent her expensive "gifts". It was so weird to watch happen, but kind of hilarious when she ran into a female professor that she really needed to win over to get a letter of recommendation for grad school and she couldn't fall back on her tried and true tricks.

Btw the scarequoutes around friend are because she was one of those friend of a friend things, not for any other reason you may be inferring.

hah this thread's a bit popular...

xxxxp
I would say that for men the primary asset is charisma. Then again, pretty girls without much personality never caught my attention other than a superficial "yeah, ws!" -- but I would always crush hard on any ol' girl who had cool personality/interesting thoughts/etc... but I don't think I'm a typical male (as if that exists anyway).

xp - I had a male friend who did some of these things in college. He slept his way to a transfer out of Hopkins, which he hated.

a transfer *to a better school* -- i forget whether the prof was male or female.

yeah jon I know a few women who have done things like that and we all resent them but they do usually get their way

I mean just read the story about my wife's friend that I posted, that kind of thing is way more common for women than it is for men

i really don't know anyone who gets their way paid simply by being attractive, except i guess there are semi-fictional celebrity characters who do this? generally a lot of extra work is required.

Aren't there a lot of no-talent celebs who are gorgeous and generally do not do much at the moment?

i dunno - i read crap like the ladder theory site and the loveshy posts that mandee posted upthread, and I just conclude that these guys should just fuck each other.

tbh sometimes i am having a conversation with someone and i think 'this dude would be trying harder in this conversation if i was hot' but i'm pretty aware that's just me being bitter and weird about forced social interaction.

i kind of think no-talent celebs are actually working pretty hard at being celebs, there is a lot of stuff involved in being a celeb that i personally would totally baulk at. making your face your fortune does not seem very easy to me.

Being "gorgeous" in the public eye is a huge amt of work and expense, talent or no talent. xp yeah, totally.

Also I think we've gotten off track in a way that is a little bit misogynistic and a little bit too ready to believe in & discuss "women who use their looks to get everything handed to them" which is surely a tiny percentage of people and something it's entirely possible to never encounter in your life. Also which is not rly the point of this thread unless "men" are "angry" because that woman, in particular, won't sleep with them and drop everything she'd doing to make sure THEY are fulfilled.

20 years later, they met again, and she asked him why he had married his wife. "She made good sandwiches," he said.

I'm not sure anyone itt is being particularly "misogynistic".

I feel like one aspect of 'friendzoning' that's relevant here is that if you are a dude whose personality-around-women is worse than yr graded-on-a-curve looks (as these dudes I imagine are), then being relegated to 'admirer' gets more likely as time passes? I feel like it's kinda separate to the mishandled mutual crush situs that Viceroy is talking about. (This happened to me a lot when I was 17 and v.pretty and also kind of an insane mess)

ehhhh I don't think the point was that attractive women "get everything handed to them", it was that in general life is easier in a lot of ways; honestly I don't even think that can be debated

as for the celebrity thing I realize that modeling is tough work but so are a lot of jobs that are much less exciting; I mean Kim Kardashian's ass alone is probably worth like $100 million, can you imagine that family's worth if she was ugly?

if you are a dude whose personality-around-women is worse than yr graded-on-a-curve looks (as these dudes I imagine are), then being relegated to 'admirer' gets more likely as time passes?

well i think the central problem here is "guys who interpret failures of chemistry as moral transgressions on everybody's part but theirs". which is the kind of belief that gives you an unpleasant personality-around-women, which then causes a lot more failures of chemistry.

this "thing"--the angry-internet-misogynists-with-charts thing--is so fascinating to me, in part because i think its always sort of "about" how awful it is to be 13 or 14, for everyone

You were very very pretty, that part I remember. xp to GP

right...the whole "pick up artist" mentality is so ridiculous and demeaning that I can't help but be amazed that women actually fall for that

i abruptly discovered at 21 that i'd been very pretty at 17, and wished someone had told me, and then i remembered that they had and i'd thought they were "wrong". GOOD JOB

(I'm 100% not saying that the solution is anything other than 'stop being awful' in case that gets misinterpreted btw! Laurel's post about 'self-esteem' upthread is fantastic I think)

right...the whole "pick up artist" mentality is so ridiculous and demeaning that I can't help but be amazed that women actually fall for that

well most of it as far as i can tell revolves around exploiting women's insecurities and social/biological fears, which most of them have as many of as the next primate. it's just kind of the opposite of civilization to exploit them.

ehhhh I don't think the point was that attractive women "get everything handed to them", it was that in general life is easier in a lot of ways; honestly I don't even think that can be debated

just smh

Ill fitting pants?

xxpp Haha I like that. Yes, it plays on their worst and YOUR worst possible traits, instead of lifting up ANY of either parties' better ones.

Liked yr post about being left alone in dark place, that's just what happens to you, for same reasons.

this "thing"--the angry-internet-misogynists-with-charts thing--is so fascinating to me, in part because i think its always sort of "about" how awful it is to be 13 or 14, for everyone

― max, Monday, March 7, 2011 1:28 PM (5 minutes ago)

OTM. I also don't think every guy who gets into these dating schemes and systems are necessarily misogynists as much as people still thinking in completely pre-adolescent thought patterns and don't even understand how it could be creepy or irrational or misogynist.

just smh

no, please do explain why i'm wrong on this

this "thing"--the angry-internet-misogynists-with-charts thing--is so fascinating to me

yah i get super fascinated w/ this - maybe in part because i have the tendency myself - to try to systemize & classify & structure a phenomenon into some sort of coherent, manageable, rules-based like code of laws. i mean this is p shopworn but its such an obvious attempt to gain mastery/control over the phenomenon, & i feel like this is a fairly 'male' pursuit so its not strange that there are ppl doing this about sex/dating/relationships but its still amazing to me

thing about the pick-up artist thing is that i think it comes out of a genuine late-adolescence epiphany that can also go in a totally different direction. the epiphany is "these girls whom you THOUGHT were untouchable totally on-the-ball manipulative goddesses actually often feel fearful and lonely, just like you!" and one reaction is "maybe try and help them feel less like that and see if they can do the same for you?" and the other is "JACKPOT let's get LAID and then go home and wait for death"

xp

Vicer - that doesn't make them not-misogynist any more than not thinking that they're racist makes someone not-racist. They still are.

& i feel like this is a fairly 'male' pursuit

Yes, thank you, every Nick Hornby book ever!

but don't girls have the whole 10-ways-to-tell-if-he's-into-you women's mag set of rules too?

but don't girls have the whole 10-ways-to-tell-if-he's-into-you women's mag set of rules too?

totally, but having read multiple issues of cosmo in youthful search of titillation (which btw is absolutely identical to reading the same issue of cosmo multiple times), i can say that they're usually not as... morally charged? i mean everyone can correct me if they know better but girls, in general, seem not to approach this subject with so much resentment. though god knows they have their own problems.

no, please do explain why i'm wrong on this

well the language in a couple of your posts seems to betray the sort of mindset/worldview that lacks the empathy to get why your wrong, or to really care about the ways that you are wrong in the 1st place

Vicer - that doesn't make them not-misogynist any more than not thinking that they're racist makes someone not-racist. They still are.
― go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Monday, March 7, 2011 1:45 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

point well taken, a lack of self-awareness of a character flaw doesn't make it not exist.

But I do think the guys who run those sites and write those books and make those tapes and shit are self-aware and truly do consciously hate women and want to fuck them over and don't care about their feelings not because they haven't developed the capability for empathy but because they want to hurt those feelings. I mean obv. thats next level shit, right?

the closest female analogue to this stuff i'm aware of is girls i know who are very loud and firm on the subject of Not Being Fucked Around With in relationships and Not Settling and Cutting Loose Anyone Who Keeps Them From Actualizing Themselves, like loud and firm to the point of protest-too-much obsession, and their rhetoric is kind of a combination of vague received feminist notions about not having to put up with assholes and a bunch of pretty evident trauma from actually having put up with a lot of assholes in the past. i think those girls cut themselves off from other people and believe in the primacy of the self and stunt their own empathy in ways that are similarly a shame (even though the causes are understandable, just like they are with the guys). but it's not the same as building a whole elaborate psuedoscientific exegesis of your resentments.

should say because i'm getting all high-handed and diagnosis-dispensing in this thread that it's not like i'm not guilty of, like, everything.

p sure i've said this on other PUA threads we've had (lol, btw), but, what's crazy about that worldview is the recognition that there are two (2) kinds of people that seem to be able to just get (take?) what they want without much trouble: people who are genuinely talented, successful, attractive and sociable; and sociopaths. and the game shit is basically: "attention gentlemen: we have a program to turn you into a sociopath!"

ok! i have seriously never read cosmo so... i do not know about these things. Though you could say that cosmo's a publication and loveshy's a website and obviously cosmo's going to try to keep it cheerful. And, say, the woman in frogbs' anecdote who's all 'withhold sex, keep a secret account', like there's a Hit 'Em Up Style school of girlfriendship -- isn't that someone who's seeing it in terms of gender war?

well the language in a couple of your posts seems to betray the sort of mindset/worldview that lacks the empathy to get why your wrong, or to really care about the ways that you are wrong in the 1st place

that doesn't make sense to me unless you really meant "portray", in which case are you saying you will not explain it because you don't think I'd understand it? are you trying to argue that attractiveness is a burden, or what? i don't really think this is debatable

btw two things that are hilarious about the ladder theory website: first, the way it keeps talking about how girls will go off and fuck "outlaw bikers" or "unemployed alcoholics" or "shitty musicians" and explicitly names one of the subjects girls are (to their discredit) uninterested in as "unix"; and second, the way the only citations of anything are all of nietzsche.

LadderTheory.com is part of the Stupidness.com network.

well nietzsche did get friendzoned pretty hard by lou salome

in purified distilled internet shut-in form this stuff is p repulsive but just guys sharing their theories abt women is a pretty classic & great thing, imo does not fit a lot of the characterization being put forth itt. the post where u were like, horrified that someone explained theirs to u on a napkin was weird to me

btw two things that are hilarious about the ladder theory website: first, the way it keeps talking about how girls will go off and fuck "outlaw bikers" or "unemployed alcoholics" or "shitty musicians"

yeah it was p lol to see them portray women as simultaneously calculating, mercenary, gold-digging whores who only want to bone lacrosse-stick toting trustfunders & empty-headed thrill-seeking sluts who only want to bone muscular, meth-dealing ex-cons.

man the last thing i want to talk to most guys about is their theories about women

calculating, mercenary, gold-digging whores who only want to bone lacrosse-stick toting trustfunders & empty-headed thrill-seeking sluts who only want to bone muscular, meth-dealing ex-cons.

see there are two types of people in the world

the post where u were like, horrified that someone explained theirs to u on a napkin was weird to me

well first it wasn't really theirs, it was literally that website. but the real problem i guess is: sure, guys trying to find their way through this mess and work out an effective and defensible way to behave is totally fine, and guys getting kinda drunk and venting to each other about past failures and crazy girls (and some girls are actually crazy, and most girls are crazy at least from time to time) is of course a hallowed institution. it's the curdling of that goodhearted symposium stuff into "i have found a formula for fucking these selfish deceptive bitches, let me explain it to you in the expectation that you will be blown away by my tough truths!" that is not a good look.

man the last thing i want to talk to most guys about is their theories about women

cosign a bazillion

about the only thing I want hear less about than that is most non black people's theories about black people

well nietzsche did get friendzoned pretty hard by lou salome

yup. but you just know he deserved it.

are you trying to argue that attractiveness is a burden, or what?

there's a great Kurt Vonnegut short story in Welcome To The Monkey House about this exact thing. in short, yes, it can be quite a problem for people.

like, there are guys who have a beer and then say to me "GOD [name of girl] is [deficiency] and i don't know how i'm supposed to put UP with it" and i think you should always be prepared to have some sympathy for that, and i do it too. then there are guys who say "let me tell you about women" and immediately there are a whole lot of alarms going off and exit signs being sought.

xp yeah I can see it being a problem in some situations but I really cannot imagine who would ever be sympathetic to that; I would imagine being unattractive is way more of a burden

let me tell you about women

let me tell you about the ass on that women

by the way white people let me tell you about the ass on that women

billyburg

xp yeah I can see it being a problem in some situations but I really cannot imagine who would ever be sympathetic to that; I would imagine being unattractive is way more of a burden

― frogbs, Monday, March 7, 2011 4:27 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

I don't know that that's necessarily the case but this probably isn't really the thread to get into it. P sure both can be a burden just in v different ways.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VOzmhMOvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

(sadly this is the only image i can rustle up at work...)

yeah my bf and I were once thrown out of someone's house because this person (our host) from out of seemingly nowhere started this rant about "you don't know what women are like, let me tell you buddy, they're all a bunch of dirty gold-digging sluts" etc. with many claims taken straight out of the ladder theory playbook. We were horrified, my bf said he sounded like an idiot for generalizing about all women in such a misogynist way, we were told "how dare you talk to me like that in my own house", voices were raised, and we got kicked out of his house shortly thereafter. It was a huge relief honestly and we don't miss having this person's acquaintance in the slightest. I guess people shrink to fit their own shabby, reductive theories of humanity/the sexes/the races/etc.?

I don't know that that's necessarily the case but this probably isn't really the thread to get into it. P sure both can be a burden just in v different ways.

Yes, just like being rich has very different burdens than being poor

the real question is why arent men more angry what with these females and their behavior!

the porn calms them down.

don't forget the playstations

Kay Hymowitz's prose is why I'm angry.

As for women, I dont know. Half the time, I'm like a little boy, and the other half I spend running around like a headless chicken, so I haven't had much experience with women.

imo the sort of guys who get angry about women are also often angry about xbox live

people are unhappy everywhere, under every conceivable circumstance. making generalizations about which subgroup is MORE unhappy is not really productive.

men are way way scarier than women though so we should probably attempt to understand their behaviour cuz they might try to kill us.

men are way way scarier than women though

eh I don't really buy this

really?

well obviously men are more likely to go on angry shooting rampages tho so point taken

xp

The only time I was angry at a woman in recent memory was when I saw her struggling with trying to load a bunch of heavy things into the back of her car and I stopped to help her with it. When we were done, rather than thanking me, she says "this doesn't mean I'm going to go out with you now or anything". I mean, even with the ring on my finger and everything she must have thought that the only reason I could ever possibly want to help a fellow human being would be to sleep with her instead of, you know, trying to be a decent person.

yeah, its not just the rampages. in general, men are freaks in waays that women aren't. in all kinds of ways. um, there is my generalization for the day. but its more like common knowledge.

Thats not female, thats Idiot. xpost

oh I'm pretty angry with a certain woman RIGHT NOW but this is neither the time nor place

xp

Oh yeah, wasn't meant that to be "lol typical women", more of just an example of the weird expectations that people have about the opposite sex.

ugggh yeah that kind of stuff is basically the worst, I had something similar happen to me when I looked up a girl on facebook to return her ID, she basically thought I was stalking her and I basically told her off

for me this thread is fascinating because, in other parts of life, I really do love "Theory", the idea of theories as creative, aesthetic objects of design in their own right, but also as powerful and dynamic response to complex phenomena- I'm not anti-theory at all, but to see "ladder theory"-as a theory- do its violent, levelling-down work upon something as rich and complicated as human sexuality makes me feel . . . I dunno, an almost personal twinge of remorse, or complicity, or something, for having discussed it and learned about it, and a kind of shame that the harmful impact of the dissemination of this theory is exactly why people mistrust theories qua theories in the first place- as in, I think people really would lead healthier lives if they ascribed to others a kind of tabula rasa uniqueness and individuality from the get-go and didn't presume that "as a man, you want X"/"as a woman, you want Y" - hopelessly idealistic of me?

it is hopelessly idealistic, but people can try to do it anyway!

my bf said he sounded like an idiot for generalizing about all women in such a misogynist way

admire this, i would have sat there in a mortified silence.

more surprised that said host would bust out this rant in front of a woman (unless the tune is space is a man in which case, uh, I apologize for misreading the situation!)

like saying that shit in front of a functional hetero couple is basically just asking for a fight

and explicitly names one of the subjects girls are (to their discredit) uninterested in as "unix"

Srs lols, coming back from a meeting to read rest of thread.

the tune is the space is a man, yeah. I think he's the guitarist from Bon Jovi.

p sure i've said this on other PUA threads we've had (lol, btw), but, what's crazy about that worldview is the recognition that there are two (2) kinds of people that seem to be able to just get (take?) what they want without much trouble: people who are genuinely talented, successful, attractive and sociable; and sociopaths. and the game shit is basically: "attention gentlemen: we have a program to turn you into a sociopath!"

― goole, Monday, March 7, 2011 3:59 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha

The main thing I've been thinking about while reading this thread is how full of horror 'friendzoned' is. Like being someone's friend is the worst thing that could ever possibly happen to you.

I think people really would lead healthier lives if they ascribed to others a kind of tabula rasa uniqueness and individuality from the get-go and didn't presume that "as a man, you want X"/"as a woman, you want Y"

Pretty sure this is the not-very-secret secret that must be solved in order to achieve any real human decency. Congrats, you cracked it!!!

I mean, I understand that you can be sad because you wanted more, but it's like a woman assuming friendship is such an affront to them.

xpost to self.

The main thing I've been thinking about while reading this thread is how full of horror 'friendzoned' is. Like being someone's friend is the worst thing that could ever possibly happen to you.

Oh yeah, but when you are going through your awkward years and every crush you bear your soul to responds with, "yeah, but I like you better as my friend", it gets painful to hear after awhile.

the tune is the space is a man, yeah. I think he's the guitarist from Bon Jovi.

hahah :)

every crush you bear your soul to responds with, "yeah, but I like you better as my friend"

The chances of that happening increase a lot when every girl you like as a friend is also a crush object. I realize part of that is just being young/a certain age, but in sheer numbers if you crush on every girl you like talking to as a friend, you're going to hear something back a lot of the time, good OR bad.

http://api.ning.com/files/4IgJK8j4PKL3ku2X-TsxMlTroDrJjV9cPxa1vA2wWDJblAfHmlyd-v7lJPvFBmCEv52FoDAvraJIzZyyyCnx325jl3WCVWMY/richiesambora4.jpg

xpost yeah, I'm a dude, and it was all gay dudes at this dinner party (which, ugh, I guess made this person feel like he could assume a weird tacit safe space for misogyny or that it was cool to let fly about women in that way)- the person who delivered said rant had been closeted for a long time and had married a woman while being in denial about his queerness and for some reason these experiences gave him the feeling that he was entitled to deliver the "let me tell you what women are really like" rant- as if we would just nod sagely and bow to his greater experience in these matters- but we weren't buying it. Gay male misogyny is still misogyny and that's that. It's not special or extra cute, I would at least say that it's less harmful insofar as this guy is no longer in the dating pool with actual women, but he's part of the world and not making it any better with his bullshit attitudes.

Well, of course, but I also had that happen to me when talking to a girl after our first date (something that both of us knew going into was definitely a "date" and not something I was misconstruing). I just think a lot of people (male and female alike) use some form of "friend" excuse as a shortcut to let someone down easy. At some point it becomes hard to take at face value, particularly coming from someone you've just meant and never were really "friends" to begin with.

(xpost)

in my limited possibly similar personal experiences, I suspect "friendzoning" pretty much = thought he was cute but the timing was wrong or hints were missed, got to know each other better and in the process realised they're fun to hang around with but any romantic relationship would turn into saucepan-throwing within a month

Which has happened to me, twice, I guess! But the reverse (growing to think a just-friend is totally cute) has happened a lot more than twice, so...

Anyhow as an ugly woman I'd like to assure all those bitter loveshy dudes that think "oh man, the 10/10 girls are bitchy sluts who go for 8/10 assholes, and then the 6/10 girls are crazy sluts who also go for 8/10 assholes, and there is nobody left for meeee" that there are still women out there that they are lonely too

oh, too late, you just spat in their faces and went to lol on the internet about how some crazy woman tried to say hi to you and she must've been only like 3/10, wtf, women are so out of line

LOL so OTM!

speaking of being 'friendzoned', there are ppl out there who think that (among st8s anyway) men and women can't really be friends. people like ira glass' mom, weirdly enough

http://www.shirleyglass.com/book.htm

dunno if i'm characterizing her position 100% correctly...

There is nothing more frustrating than a guy you've tried to be plain with yr interested in, bitterly saying "I cant find anyone and all women are crazy hos anyway fuck this". THANKS GUYS.

the 10/10 girls are bitchy sluts who go for 8/10 assholes

I don't know what it says about me that I more or less agree with this, and have, on average, found it to be true

and then the 6/10 girls are crazy sluts who also go for 8/10 assholes

and this is the part that sounds unreasonable/mysogynistic to me.

I dunno I guess I've just found that most super-conventionally attractive people are self-absorbed jerks.

I think people really would lead healthier lives if they ascribed to others a kind of tabula rasa uniqueness and individuality from the get-go and didn't presume that "as a man, you want X"/"as a woman, you want Y"

I'd love to invent a serum for this, then spike the world's drinking water with it.

idgi it when people are all men and women cant really be friends, like you are just defining friendship in a way thats convenient for you to make a big deal abt the fact that men and women tend to become sexually attracted to each other as if its like some insurmountable explosive problem that happens every time and dooms all in its presence, srsly its weird calm yrself

I dunno I guess I've just found that most super-conventionally attractive people are self-absorbed jerks.

― You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, March 7, 2011 5:35 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

h8rs gonna h8

lol it's true

Around the first mention of "loveshy" on this thread I skimmed through a bit of their board and found

if this lady "friend" refuses to even attempt to hook you up with any of her available female friends, then there is no need to be around her anymore
you CANT fuck her, and you CANT fuck any of her friends, so then she is a nobody to you and should be forgotten about

and, uh, ouch

like, believe me, during my more single periods I also came up with plenty of creepy "relationships must obey LOGIC" theories about dating and friendships and that one post would've confirmed them all, so I'm glad I'm in a better place now and can just roll my eyes

(should I have googleproofed that? uhh)

cavewimp.jpg

xp

maybe ira glass' dad had tite game, idk

A lot of the rhetoric posted itt, quoted from ladder theory etc, keeps reminding me of that psycho murderer from a year or two ago, whose whole ideation was 'women don't like nice guys therefore I must kill'. Can't remember his name but he was like a terrifying avatar of this kind of inturned curdled energy.

you CANT fuck her, and you CANT fuck any of her friends, so then she is a nobody to you and should be forgotten about

i agree friends should try to help each other, this is lovely

anyway im sure all these dudes stop being angry weirdos as soon as they GET SEX so its all worthwhile

Yeah, jon, some posts have referred to that mindset and the crazy violence, and like, when the killers pop up in the news everyone is SO HORRIFIED and paints them as being just crazy...and ignores/denies that the rhetoric is everywhere, already, waiting for unhappy, un-self-realized dudes of a certain stripe to find it and clutch it to their bony ribcages and let it fester there.

I kind of can't bring myself to believe that anyone really thinks like that. I mean, unless 'l0v3shy' is actually a code word for clinically mentally ill and it's actually a support group to try to help them recover.

Actually.

i feel like there are prob a lot of guys that feel that way to a certain extent but its tempered w/all sorts of other conflicting stuff aka life

then they get together on a message bord and that aspect of their thinking comes out

the day after I read the thing I quoted above, my bf told me he met someone I used to know and haven't seen for years

he used to be pretty unlucky w/women (very shy, fell in love with the first girl who paid him any attention even though she had pretty much gone through everyone else he knew and messed them all around)

now it seems this guy has hit upon a more determined approach which is reputedly paying off but bummed me out nonetheless: this guy started asking after all my bf's social engagements for the next 3 months, not to hang out with him but to turn up and see if there were ~ladies~ there - and he kept going "oh no, I can't do that one" because it clashed with some other thing he'd signed up to in his quest for women, but still asking about the next week, and the next

I do not know if this is a PUA thing or just a common sense good idea taken a little too far but, uh. anyway these are probably 2 unrelated phenomena and the temporal coincidence is making me see him in an unfair light, I guess

prob just cant accept the fact that he loves to party, makes it all abt chix as a form of rationalization

Sounds less like the psycho stuff upthread and more like "if I meet enough women, something will happen".

If weird, angry, sexually frustrated guys disappeared, where would black metal bands come from?

i think ppl often go on dates & otherwise string/play along w/ ppl they don't have serious interest in out of a mix of feeling flattered & wanting to be polite&nice. ppl aren't always going to be ready to gently and fairly let down everyone that flirts with them & its not nec v easy, so the friend thing seems like a good idea.

xxp yeah, it's totally a sensible, rational approach, but also it is normally considered polite to be a little more subtle about using the acquaintance of non-dateables as a stepping stone to fresh dating pools, at least to their faces, and when you have shown 0 interest in hanging out with them otherwise

but yes, not really for this thread, just something I have been wound up by over the past 2 days

(shrug)

Damn if I got hung up on every male friend I had I'd be in major trouble, 80% of my friends are guys!

If weird, angry, sexually frustrated guys disappeared, where would black metal bands come from?

― Franklin_The_Turtle, Monday, March 7, 2011 5:56 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

for reals i feel like everyone has a some aspect of black metal in them, its p relatable, studies have shown rejection romantically or otherwise is the #1 thing people fear in the world - for some it just becomes calcified or unbalanced or whatever - and then through their anger and alienation these doodz become even less appealing and more rejeactable, its sad

I must say that, as a former PUA board reading potential sociopath, developing Platonic friendships with women has been one of the best things I ever did to make myself more dateable.

I think the essential point is, guys who complain about bein friendzoned all the time often dont realise that they have BITTERNESS (and/or desperation) oozing out of them so much that it is, frankly, offputting. They could be gorgeous and that'd still be a no go.

yeah but what if they had 'perfect abs'

or like 'sweet tats'

what if they were an outlaw biker

Ew.

what if they were an australian rules football quarterback

There's no such thing.

But, EW.

All these bitter guys should read "My Work Is Not Yet Done" by Thomas Ligotti to put their hatred in perspective

come on all the worlds footballs have quarterback otherwise how is it decided who gets the 10/10s

Wasn't the guy who shot up the gym last year or whenever objectively reasonably good looking? Srsly, those guys that go down the rabbit hole w this stuff, it's not their looks that are the problem -- everyone grows up eventually and whatever acne or body issues you had as a teen while you were being malformed by the hands of callous, hard-hearted manipulative GIRLS, it's time to get past them and move on and un-deform your PERSONALITY.

or just register on ilx

All these bitter guys should read "My Work Is Not Yet Done" by Thomas Ligotti to put their hatred in perspective

Ligotti = TOTAL BONER KILLER.

Yeah I think thats the core of it. It took some time (and a few E and acid trips) before I finally got it through my thick skull that whatever happened in the past is past, and I'M responsible for how I handle the present. I think a lot of these guys don't want to take any responsibility for their situations, so it becomes easy to dump it all on some nebulous Feminine Evil

studies have shown rejection romantically or otherwise is the #1 thing people fear in the world - for some it just becomes calcified or unbalanced or whatever

I don't know if you were being facetious or what but taken at face value, I actually really believe that.

i was attempting total sincerity!

friendzoned complainers who complain too much can sometimes end up being hurt baffled acqaintancezoned complainers, it just goes on and on.

i think part of the reason its so easy to be repeled by these dudes is because we are all kind of like that in some more general sense - like not hating women particularly but being bitter and needy

#winning

which is not to say i dont think people should grow up, just that theyre worthy of sympathy too

everyone grows up eventually and whatever acne or body issues you had as a teen while you were being malformed by the hands of callous, hard-hearted manipulative GIRLS, it's time to get past them and move on and un-deform your PERSONALITY.

yeah this is it really. seems like part of being an adult is figuring out that whatever body/appearance issues you have are all self-enforced and that not everyone things you are fat/ugly/have a strangely large nose/flat feet/whatever and you just get over it. ugly people get love all the time, looks are really not the barrier you are made to believe they are when you are younger.

things = THINKS

i think part of the reason its so easy to be repeled by these dudes is because we are all kind of like that in some more general sense - like not hating women particularly but being bitter and needy

Oh I won't front, I remember me aged 21-24 very well. Thank god I had the awesomest female friends and there was no internet yet.

I had something similar happen to me when I looked up a girl on facebook to return her ID, she basically thought I was stalking her and I basically told her off.

i don't know the specifics of this anecdote of course, but i have to say, reading this got me down a little bit. while i totally get the feeling of indignation/hurt at rudeness like this (or in jon's groceries anecdote), i also know that the dynamic of interacting with a man who is a stranger to you can be difficult to manage, for a woman. you don't want to come off as rude (in fact, you've been socialized not to), but you also have to quickly gauge your safety in interacting with someone who is likely physically stronger than you/whose intentions are unknown. like, i totally get that you were doing a nice thing for her and she reacted rudely, but it stings a little bit that you then said "and i told her!" without acknowledging that the difficulty on her end exists too.

hey so when some of you decide to grow a pair, drop by my PUA technique thread and we'll talk

lol <3

i don't know the specifics of this anecdote of course, but i have to say, reading this got me down a little bit. while i totally get the feeling of indignation/hurt at rudeness like this (or in jon's groceries anecdote), i also know that the dynamic of interacting with a man who is a stranger to you can be difficult to manage, for a woman. you don't want to come off as rude (in fact, you've been socialized not to), but you also have to quickly gauge your safety in interacting with someone who is likely physically stronger than you/whose intentions are unknown. like, i totally get that you were doing a nice thing for her and she reacted rudely, but it stings a little bit that you then said "and i told her!" without acknowledging that the difficulty on her end exists too.

I dunno if I necessarily buy that, it's not like I was asking to meet her in private, it was more like "how can I get this to you" and gave her my apartment number (we both lived on campus and obviously had roommates), and she said "no, we do not meet in person, you drop it off with my RA" along with a bunch of other stuff, and it was just like, "okay, if I had kept this, you'd be kinda fucked right now, so don't come off as a total bitch"...maybe I don't understand, how do you live your life that way?

why are you so angry

If some people are assholes, and some assholes are women, we can assume that:

a) All assholes are women
b) All women are assholes
c) No women are assholes
d) frogbs has met some women who were assholes

"okay, if I had kept this, you'd be kinda fucked right now, so don't come off as a total bitch"

If you had kept it, you'd be an even bigger asshole.

lol frogbs

Take a step outside of the situation for a second; you just looked up someone you didn't know on Facebook so you could give them back property containing important identifying information about them and offered your territory as a meeting place rather than neutral ground. How is her reaction unreasonable? Maybe it's a little harsh, I don't know what the "bunch of other stuff" actually was, but she has no clue who you are or what you're about or whether the location you gave her is legit or not, and you telling her off while still holding onto her property isn't really likely to make her think you're a safe, trustworthy kind of guy.

In summation, next time just say "how can I get this back to you?" and let the other person decide.

doing someone a favor like that does not even entitle you to thanks or praise, you do it because it's the decent thing to do and that's that

i left a really important folder full of notes on a bus in college and two girls found it and called me and we met in a pub to hand it over and had a stack of drink at it was good times.

DJP OTM

i think, frogbs, you really don't understand - she could have been attacked before, she could have been scammed before, her sister or her friend could have, she could have had a stalker, she could have just had a class on women's safety and have these issues on the mind. Women spend a lot of time being told that bad stuff's going to happen to them, and a lot of time blaming themselves for being unsafe/uncautious when bad stuff happens to them.

i am sorry you are upset that she thought you might have been sketchy! especially when you were trying to do something nice! but really that's the kind of caution women are often told to exercise.

Otm also DJP otm also Frog does seem really angry!

Ditto to c#. I was just about to write a post saying I didn't mean I thought that particular girl was nec. an asshole - maybe she could have been nicer but c# OTM; women get brainwashed into assuming an attitude of mistrust, and all too often this is borne out by events.

it's not like I was asking to meet her in private, it was more like "how can I get this to you" and gave her my apartment number

I mean can you really not see the disparity between thought and action here

"It wasn't private, it was just my place with my roommates; what's the big deal? Now if you'll excuse me, I just rented 'The Accused'."

eh i realise my anecdote seems to be advocating you should have organised to meet her at a bar for drinks, which isn't really my advice

Everyone otm

lol frogbs

Take a step outside of the situation for a second; you just looked up someone you didn't know on Facebook so you could give them back property containing important identifying information about them and offered your territory as a meeting place rather than neutral ground. How is her reaction unreasonable? Maybe it's a little harsh, I don't know what the "bunch of other stuff" actually was, but she has no clue who you are or what you're about or whether the location you gave her is legit or not, and you telling her off while still holding onto her property isn't really likely to make her think you're a safe, trustworthy kind of guy.

In summation, next time just say "how can I get this back to you?" and let the other person decide.

no no, it was basically "how can I get this to you, here's my apt# number if you want to meet me here, i'll be here for a couple hours, otherwise I can drop it off in the mail or something" , i didn't even tell her off until i dropped it with her RA, it's not like i was being all righteous "I demand a thank you card!" or anything, it's not even like "I'm upset that you don't want to meet me", it's more like "I'm doing you a big favor could you at least not be a total bitch to me, especially since I don't even know you"

i love the womensz

I mean can you really not see the disparity between thought and action here

not really; I didn't say "this is the only way you're getting it back", it was just "this is where I live so either come pick it up or tell me what to do with it"

She sure told you what to do with it!

It should be noted that women are often told to exercise personal safety caution by powerful men! My uncle the cop was forever letting us know where we could find that week's rapist/creep/weirdo and that GIRLS SHOULD STAY INSIDE because of it. Or, my mom would keep us inside because my uncle had mentioned some prowler and 13-yr-old me would be like 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?'

it's not even like "I'm upset that you don't want to meet me", it's more like "I'm doing you a big favor could you at least not be a total bitch to me, especially since I don't even know you"

Dude you're just coming over as weird about this. Hope your FB exchange wasn't in such, erm, intense language.

Yep.

well congratulations on taking the first step to unfairly getting your name put on the list of campus misogynists

ummm no it really wasn't 'intense' in any way i'm just telling you what i'm thinking here. i don't get why it's such a big deal

Because the way you're retelling the story you're making yourself sound like a total asshole.

You're calling her a bitch on the internet because she was wary about going over to a complete stranger's apartment.

i think it was c# put it best frogbs - it's a pain in the ass when you try to help a stranger and you only get treated with suspicion, but rly let it go.

i can't really let it go when everybody here is calling me out on it; i honestly didn't care if she came or not, for the last time i'm not calling her a bitch because she didn't come and meet me, i dunno where you're getting that from but it's getting really bizarre. not that I really wanted to go into specifics here but it was just a huge ordeal, basically I said "i'm studying here, so if you want it now come here otherwise tell me where to drop it" and she told me I had to leave it with her RA all the way across campus which obviously I didn't want to do ATM but she pretty much demanded I do it immediately because she needed it that night, instead I suggested that I'll leave it with my RA if you need it right this moment, but she was unwilling to budge so I ended up trekking across campus anyway, and obviously the RA wasn't even there, so yeah it was just a big dumb ordeal and yeah i did get kinda angry about it

idk, you might have made a friend

i have no friends

At least this thread has given me a new display name.

something similar happened to me -- i found something or some girl did -- and you know, there was the prospect of meeting someone new and potentially attractive. i guess it didn't play out that way because i can't remember the details, but honestly if you have time to waste on ilx...

I was trying to sell an extra concert ticket once and advertised it on the band's message board. This girl emailed me wanting the tickets, came to my apartment to pick it out, we talked for 2 hours, ended up dating for 8 months. Also the only ex-girlfriend of mine that I am still on friendly terms with.

Weelll frogs that does sound pretty selfish of her, and it was cool of you to take it over there. You can prolly see though, that you had left some salient information out of the story, and also that the word 'bitch' is likely to push some buttons in a thread about misogyny.

xp Aw, that's sweet. (What was the band?)

Er, Zwan.

Heh.

for the last time i'm not calling her a bitch because she didn't come and meet me,

But you're calling her a bitch, and for a relatively minor maybe-faux-pas. Which is pretty much not okay. You may not be an insufferable misogynist, but you are, by saying that, wearing a verbal hat that says, in big block letters, "Insufferable Misogynist." You need to be aware of this.

xp like what SaW said

ehh I kinda misremembered some of the things at first and had to actually check my old FB messages , i dunno i didn't really expect this kind of "you are an asshole" response, its my fault really

but really i think what i'm saying is as stupid as that article is, it does kinda have a few points in there

"i didn't really expect this kind of "you are an asshole" response"

new board description, please!

lol

It is done.

and, hey, ladies, all holly near albums are half off today in my store in honor of the 100th anniversary of international women's day. its the least i can do.

http://www.lusakatimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/womens-day.gif

http://russianwomenblog.hotrussianbrides.com/image.axd?picture=2010%2F3%2Fwomenday.gif

oh man i really wish i had this card to give to maria!

http://frogandprincess.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/8787-005-27-1042.gif

My eyes and my stomach are competing for Most Offended.

Luckily the brane gets the joek.

but wait there is more:

http://www.wewomentoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/women-1.gif

http://www.wewomentoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/women-21.gif

hahaha these cards are amazing

That last one seems to be borderline harassment.

lol I just sent it to my co-worker

Meeting with HR in 5... 4... 3...

she's my work bud and will <3 it

lol "I was waiting for it to say something inappropriate."

okay so i don't think i posted abt this at the time but this thread just reminded me

that during the oscars, anne hathaway introduced, i think, jennifer hudson? with the words "an amazing singer, actress... and woman"
which i guess is not-so-unusual a thing to say
but somehow the delivery or something made it stick in my craw
and i was like, wow, what a triple threat

and THAT... is why men are so angry

i dunno, i couldn't pull that off.

xp

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jZYAhDpI0Gk/Sa1ELzfWi-I/AAAAAAAAACs/I6GDKloH8SE/s400/jjs.gif

but somehow the delivery or something made it stick in my craw
and i was like, wow, what a triple threat

dude her menstrual cycles are AMAZING

lol hats off!

Waiting for the first "How come there isn't a MEN'S Day?" post on Facebook.

Surprisingly, I'm still waiting.

wait isn't there some foolish thing called steak and bj day?

ur all set bro xp

lol i see what u did there. nice one.

If you do get one, aside from the obvious "it's men's day every fucking day, stfu" reply, you could point them towards the fact that there is an official International Men's Day, so really, stfu.

how dare u frankly

I would just sign that person up to receive the International Male catalog

Done and done. Watch your mailbox, Mr. Cr¿eam.

every day is mens day now

i had to mansplain 'mansplain' the other day

i think she already understood the concept but didnt realize there was a name for it

i have no idea what that is.

yeah neither do I

is it the result of manscaping? Like, a thorough manscape would result in a mansplain?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain

urban dictionary = hoodsplain

Often leads to a flounce

suggest ban isn't defined yet.

and i so wanted to buy suggest ban t-shirts mugs and magnets

Man's Plain sounds like something out of John Bunyan.

i dont think it matters if the person 'mansplaining' is wrong or not so that first definition is off. for ex you could be mansplaining something that is common knowledge bcuz u assume its something womanfolk wouldnt understand

Are you mansplaining to us right now?

Man Splain sound like a good name for Ned's next spoken word album.

venting your man spleen

Are you mansplaining to us right now?

― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:22 (30 minutes ago)

depends on why im condescending & to whom

depends on why im condescending & to whom

on ILX this never matters

Man Splain sound like a good name for Ned's next spoken word album.

Hmmmm

Honestly I'm kinda of both minds about "mansplain" -- on one hand I want to find it funny, otoh but did we really need a whole new word for "being a dick -- again"?

"Heavens! Let me mansplain something to you faggots." xpost

Yesterday (being as I am in the future and all) a suprising number of male friends on my FB decided making trolly/provocative posts about women's day or women's rights, or how women get off on criminal charges lighter than men, or posting video of women naked rollerskating. One guy wrote "circle circle dot dot now you need a cooties shot HAPPY WOMENS DAY"

I mean... REALLY GUYS? My respect for about 6 people who I am actually friends with plummetted through the fucking floor yesterday.

Broken phrasing is broken. That meant to say they decided it would be funny. Or wanted to shit stir.

Can someone mansplain "circle circle dot dot" to me

you haven't been vaccinated? gtfo

lol!

In college, my all male a capella group did a series of skits on ways to tell what your roommate's major was going to be. These were intentionally trolly, stereotypical and awful, mostly because were doing the "how far can we push things before we get into trouble?" game (the concert was titled "The More-Than-Slightly-Offensive Jam")

I volunteered to do the women's studies joke, which was to pantomime holding a tray and chirpily asking "I baked cookies! Who wants some?" It was the second-most booed joke of the evening.

second-most.... begs the question

Honestly I'm kinda of both minds about "mansplain" -- on one hand I want to find it funny, otoh but did we really need a whole new word for "being a dick -- again"?

― go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 21:10 (5 minutes ago) Permalink

i dunno i think this is helpful for observing a particular behavior that might otherwise happen uncritically or w/ little self-awareness, i mean im sure ppl here have engaged in this before ... ppl make presumptions about other ppl's knowledge all the time when they first meet them & talk accordingly but this acknowledges a more meaningful version of 'being a dick' bcuz its about gender (works similarly w/ say race) rather than, like, sorry! i assumed you didnt know about dungeons & dragons bcuz you are athletic or w/e

haha well.. The only joke we did that got more boos was about a girl whose acceptance to the school was recently rescinded because assholes in her hometown leaked sealed information from her juvenile record about how she beat her abusive mother to death with a candlestick.

that's a terrible joke

lol ive heard that one

is it the one that also has the bartender and the conjoined twins?

i dunno i think this is helpful for observing a particular behavior that might otherwise happen uncritically or w/ little self-awareness, i mean im sure ppl here have engaged in this before

Yeah but this is no way limited to men. People who do this because they are slightly aspie/way too excited about information don't need a gendered word. People who do this because they are The Man are just dicks.

i think what im saying is that environmental influence of gender roles can magnify 'being a dick'

/mansplaining?

Hah!

I think the fine line where you feel warmly about the person doing the over-splaining but you just want to gently chide their behavior lest they be unaware of it is lost on me right now. Too soon, probably.

when i first saw "mansplain" explained i totally recognised it as something i've seen (but actually...often more in work environments, from senior staff to junior staff) (as well as yeah, men condescending to women - actually the entire thing can be summed up as "men talking to women as though they're junior staff") BUT since then i've seen the term thrown around a hell of a lot where it doesn't seem applicable, as a means of shutting down discussion. "don't tell me what to think, you're mansplaining"! etc.

idk whether the amount of information has much to do w/it, isn't the point rather that it's not a proper explanation, due to the condescension?

I dunno, my main problem with 'mansplain' (aside from the fact that it's a graceless word to both look at and hear) is that I've seen people drop it to undercut anything a man has to say about a topic that women may have more experience of, rather than to point out that they're being patronising patriarchal peeps. Obviously, yr average middle-class white male has historically had the privilege of being heard above all other voices, but that doesn't mean every individual middle-class white male of the present day should be cut out for the audacity to join in a discussion about women.

xpost took too long, lex said it better.

This term is awful.

it really is a v graceless word, too, yeah (and also the english language is already more than up to the task of describing that exact behaviour)

Agreed. Next item?

someone mansplain circle circle dot dot to me!

I don't know what it is!

idg whats 'awful' abt it but w/e

my guess is boobs are involved

xp

xp It's a cootie shot, guys.

i jus dont like these sly portmanteaus people always behave as if they made up themselves, like eh mansplaining am i right *nudge nudge*, just shush youre not clever for repeating something funny you heard

thats fine, so is objecting on the grounds that ppl misuse it to silence others, but i think it has some discursive legitimacy in a way 'sexism' does. 'cant we just call 'sexism' 'being a dick'?' etc

i always thought it just meant 'man complaining' tbh

is it like "LADproval"?

Circle circle dot dot is boobs, duh.

(.) (.) <---cooties

I mean "lol boobs! Girls have cooties!" are all my friends FIVE?

I guess it's the "now you need a cooties shot" part that doesn't make any sense. Like, did they just give you fake boobs, and now you need a cootie shot? Or did you just grow some boobs, and now you need a cootie shot? Or they poked your boobs and gave you cooties? please be patient with me I am stupid

I think boobs are signs of woman-ness and women have cooties by definition?

When you are 5, or 9 or 13, and sometimes when you are 35.

Yeah what Laurel said. Girls = cooties

At least, thats how I understand the chant!

Like, did they just give you fake boobs, and now you need a cootie shot?

I have finally found the perfect question

I can see why Shakey's confused though because it does imply you're poking someone and going HA HA NOW U HAVE BOOBS. Which doesnt make much sense.

xpost lol!

it sounds like they literally drew boobs on you and gave you cooties

which I guess is probably how a 5 yo boy figures adolescence works for girls

That may well be how it goes in the playground!

BILBO: "What have I got in my pocket? Like, did they just give you fake boobs, and now you need a cootie shot?"

GOLLUM: "Sssssss. It must give us three guesseses, my preciouss—three guesseses."

i thought the circle/dot referred to what your arm looks like after a shot - like the circle is from the base of the needle and the dot is from the point?

well in that case why would you need ANOTHER shot?

ITT Shakey Mo unlocks the mind of the pre-adolescent male

i don't know, so the rhyme scans better?

shakey how did you miss this growing up, i mean they even have it in australia

i mean,

circle, dot
cooties shot

it doesn't have the proper rhythm

well in that case you could just reverse the phrases so it would be "now you need a cooties shot/circle circle, dot dot"

at least the sequence of events is clear that way

but then the rhythm would be off.

anyway, i don't think the circles and dots refer to boobs at all.

only way to get to the bottom of this is to have Laurel's jerky friend mansplain it

If it doesnt refer to boobies, why the cooties reference? For kids cooties has nothing to do with actual germs and everything to do with ew girls.

girls have cooties because they aren't boys. boys need cooties shots, which would result in a round circular impression and a dot in the middle of the circle due to the needle required to give the shot.

you seem to be missing a critical data point with that analysis, which is that boys love excuses to draw boobs

while we're on this can someone explain "eep op eep op bop" to me?????? those arent even words!!!!!!

"skiddle diddle kerplop"?! i mean REALLY this is just NONSENSICAL

at the age that I heard it, most girls didn't have boobs though

xp
http://content.internetvideoarchive.com/content/photos/383/016092_46.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXaobvYqWsw

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_omAjxECamwM/S7L5AZlZxFI/AAAAAAAAACc/mFI47sFRVhs/s1600/hanson_mmmbop-414439173b.jpg

alright folks take it to the 'sleep? that's where i'm a viking!' thread.

really believe that "circle circle dot dot/now you need a cooties shot" should be an OFWGKTA lyric

I never associated "circle circle, dot dot" with boobs.

*shrug* y'all feel free to completely overthink it, thats cool with me.

we're not overthinking it, you're the one thinking it's about boobs.

going back a few hundred posts, this and this alone is the #1 solution for creepy over-intense dudes and their womanny woes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXFT_p0LgrQ

actually not just that alone, it goes along with a whole host of related but v much non-charts'n'diagrams things like dressing well, being into a music, *enjoying* something that isn't glaring at girls from afar, and so on

http://i.imgur.com/5GLf3qN.jpg

I guess it's the "now you need a cooties shot" part that doesn't make any sense. Like, did they just give you fake boobs, and now you need a cootie shot? Or did you just grow some boobs, and now you need a cootie shot? Or they poked your boobs and gave you cooties? please be patient with me I am stupid

― You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, March 8, 2011 6:34 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

MRAs have got all year to beg for their continued privilege freedom from the shackles of female oppression but they make a big fucking noise on this day of all days

maybe they also leap into people's birthday parties screaming "we have birthdays too you know"

what about men? :P

https://vimeo.com/186056051

some angry vigilante fathers outfit put together a little convoy and held up traffic on the m1 this morning as a protest; we were driving back from brisbane a few hours later and the govia tolls billboard said 'happy international women's day' which was a surprising and pleasing sight for this part of the country. even though it would be better if govia intended to do it all along i hoped it was in retaliation.

gov IA

some angry vigilante fathers outfit put together a little convoy and held up traffic on the m1 this morning as a protest

i hope the next 364 days are all about men in their honour

The Case for Banning White Male Americans From America

to answer thread question for gay men:

other gay men

MRAs have got all year to beg for their continued privilege freedom from the shackles of female oppression but they make a big fucking noise on this day of all days

― Autumn Almanac, Wednesday, 8 March 2017 06:22 (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's this, true, but there's a fairly large element of press/commentators seeking out these morons today especially in order to broadcast the same moronic opinions they always have

yeah for clickbait, that's true

the totality of news media is now clickbait

you won't believe why

here are 17 reasons

How angry should I be, and which inappropriate outlets should I utilize in expressing that anger?

Life was never the same, after I saw what Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island looks like now!

I would get tested for
Submitted by Anonymous on March 17, 2013 - 2:28pm
I would get tested for disphoria which is a form of manic depression. It's just you're on the depressive disphoric side when your testosterone and thus your Id gets more forceful and dangerous to your Ego and Super Ego when you're trying to protect the people you love from the beast inside you. The twin snake of violence and sex are joined down at the bottom of our psyche. They're primitive old snakes but that is where the ill beast lives. Some might even come to recognize this as the devil in themselves, but really its more like a sick wolf.

In order to heal one must tame the Beast but not neglect him from food because that can make the Beast worse. I think the FBI or the people I loved saved my ass cuz I needed to eat, it was driving me nuts.

Thank u.

here are 17 reasons

reason 4 will surprise you

And the reason is you.