The Dominique Strauss-Kahn affair

continued from IMF thread

new 'the maid works for sarkozy' answers

This is the rare instance where the conspiracy theory in some ways seems more plausible than the actual purported scenario. But stranger things have happened.

'notorious shagger tries to force himself on the wrong woman, legs it' -- s0 implausible

Well, he's not a notorious rapist. He's a well-known womanizing French politician who allegedly raped a maid, in the afternoon, in a more or less public place, not long after he reported he feared being set-up to take a fall. Again, stranger things have happened, but if true - and it could very well be true - it would go down as one of the most reckless acts by a (apparently not insane) public figure in history. That's what makes it so shocking.

The implausibility part, btw, arrises because this is a dude powerful and apparently sleazy enough that he really likely could get away with something so heinous ... had he not gone about it the way it has been alleged he did. That's what's so odd.

uh

This is the rare instance where the conspiracy theory in some ways seems more plausible than the actual purported scenario.

Why would the rape seem implausible?

'notorious shagger tries to force himself on the wrong woman, legs it' -- s0 implausible

it's not *that* implausible... he could either be so arrogant that he cannot believe anyone would really refuse him, or he could be the kind of predator who reckons that there is no way that some African woman in a service industry job will ever rock the boat by reporting him.

Or it could be a setup, or a complicated hoax, or whatever.

i was being sarcastic

why is it in any way implausible?

The implausibility part, btw, arrises because this is a dude powerful and apparently sleazy enough that he really likely could get away with something so heinous

he appears to have gotten away with sexual assault before w/o suffering any consequences

i would say that getting a blowjob in the oval office counts as a rather more "reckless" act

Yes, there's a youtube link where a journalist talks about him attacking him.

I don't think he really fled though. Didn't he have lunch with his daughter? He probably was so arrogant to think she wouldn't report this (as so many).

I doubt this is a hoax, a set-up.

if this were a right-wing conspiracy and people figured it out, the french right-wing would have to suffer the consequences for a generation, watergate-style.

http://www.lemonde.fr/dsk/article/2011/05/18/une-majorite-de-francais-pense-dsk-victime-d-un-complot_1523603_1522571.html#xtor=RSS-3208

(lol france maybe they won't even need solid evidence for a conspiracy)

I'm willing to put my money on 'rape-y french dude raped her' but I do think that this would be a pretty easy conspiracy to hatch! 'get one person to lie' is a lot more conceivable than 'the government plants dynamite on every level of the WTC'

"Getting one person to lie" is quite difficult when you consider the ridiculous, sustained amount of pressure that person would be put under.

Think DV's analysis is closer to the mark, I think it just hadn't occurred to him that he wouldn't be able to get away with it.

he's saying it (whatever it was) was consensual... so i mea,n did the conspirators get to her before or after? was it she who in fact moved on him, or did they just rely on the high likelihood of DSK making an afternoon play for his maid?

xpost

http://a2zbusinessnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/dominique_strauss_kahn_et_anne_sinclair_reference.jpg

I didn't say I believed in a conspiracy. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he did it. The rape itself (horribly) is not implausible. The implausibility stems from the audacious circumstances. He surprised the maid by rushing out of the shower naked and immediately raping her? Then he went out for lunch with his daughter and then off to his flight? He allegedly called the hotel before that and claimed he forgot his phone? How did he call them? And where did the story that he called his wife in France and claimed to be in trouble come from? The cabbie? Lots of weird questions. Again, stranger things have happened, but that seems like pretty odd behavior for a prominent public figure.

Hypothetically speaking, an immigrant maid seems like the perfect victim mark for exploitation, btw, though I agree a cover-up seems impossible. But what if, like, DSK was told a call girl was on her way up, and then the maid showed up instead? Doesn't excuse him at all, but might account for some confusion. It's a mantra now, but stranger things have happened. Maybe I've seen too many movies. Of course Occam's Razor says he raped her.

He allegedly called the hotel before that and claimed he forgot his phone?

wait is this actually in dispute

Considering that everything we know comes via leaks and anonymous reports, I'd suggest right everything is in dispute short of the charges and his arrest.

But what if, like, DSK was told a call girl was on her way up, and then the maid showed up instead?

Raping a prostitute is still rape.

Rape is rape, no debate there.

I saw this shocking tidbit in the Times:

“Oftentimes, male guests will order the pay-per-view adult movies, and then call for towels, perhaps hoping that a woman will be sent to bring them up,” said Peter M. Krauss, chief sales and marketing officer for Plasticard Locktech International of Asheville, N.C., which provides card keys to hotels. “So whenever they can, the hotels will send up a male if the call comes from a male guest.”

Wow, men suck.

Raping a prostitute is still rape.

indeed ! and frankly a maid in an international hotel is not exactly dressed/look like a call girl...

xpost
Oftentimes + perhaps != all men are rapists. That's just tabloidspeak for "hey, have a discussion below this article because we get paid by the pageview"

Is the implication here that it is common hotel protocol for housekeeping to check with the front desk every time a male guest calls for extra towels to see whether that room has recently purchased pr0n???

Wow, left-leaning man having zero consideration for the personhood of women shocker. WELL I NEVER.

this dude runs my country ffs

Piece in Slate pointed out again the obvious: everything we know about this case so far has come from law enforcement or friends of the victim, which of course follows the prosecution script. So really, asshat though this man may be, we don't know anything about what went down beyond dubious leaks and conjecture. Look forward to the trial in, like, two years or whatever.

How left-leaning can you be when simultaneously running the IMF anyway?

And x-post to Dan, yeah, isn't that strange/gross that that happens enough that the quoted guy is pretty blase about the habit of men ordering adult PPV then calling for the maid? Lots of PPV dudes in a Vegas state of mind, I guess.

I don't order hotel pr0n (it's free on the Internet, ffs) but every time I've been in a hotel room and ordered extra towels, in my ENTIRE LIFE, a woman has delivered them. I can't think of a single time when a man has delivered them... oh wait I take that back; on the cruise ship where our hall steward was a man, he got us extra towels once.

So basically I think that dude is making up inflammatory bullshit.

Kind of wondering what all you people are doing with your extra towels.

I don't think I've ever ordered extra towels in a hotel, they give you new ones every day ffs.

(Hah, concentrating on the important issues here)

^^ OTM.

Considering the hotel charged FOUR TIMES AS MUCH for a room the night after the arrest, they'll be looking to stay in the media for quite a while surely.

xp

Piece in Slate pointed out again the obvious: everything we know about this case so far has come from law enforcement or friends of the victim, which of course follows the prosecution script. So really, asshat though this man may be, we don't know anything about what went down beyond dubious leaks and conjecture. Look forward to the trial in, like, two years or whatever.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:29 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

well, we know he was accused of a sexual assault, and that local law enforcement took the accusation seriously -- that isn't a dubious leak or conjecture

how do we know that local law enforcement took the accusation seriously

Considering the hotel charged FOUR TIMES AS MUCH for a room the night after the arrest

I'm not sure I buy this. Does being the site of a well-publicised alleged rape make a hotel a more desirable tourist destination? It's more likely that they offer a reduced rate to delegations from the IMF, or just tabloid bullshit.

re: extra towel consumption; I would invite you to travel with my wife sometime so you could witness firsthand the myriad amazing ways a determined woman can use up every towel in a hotel room but I am certain she would punch me

x-post The French guy was reportedly getting a massive discount on the room, for $800 a night rather than $3000, which explains the rate jump when he moved out.

i dont think "knowing only what law enforcement and friends of the victim are saying" is the same thing as not knowing anything

but at any rate we also know what the defense attorneys are saying: it was consensual.

and also what many women who have dealt w/ dsk in the past are saying: hes a creep

we also know what bhl thinks, thank god (and ben stein!)

it is... "within the realm of possibility" that the guy was the victim of an elaborate sarkozian set up. maybe this muslim african immigrant is actually a right-wing french agent?

i've never ordered extra towels in a hotel but often room service, and come to think of it, it's usually a dude who brings that. it was also a dude who always brought me a daily goldfish for my room in miami.

If I were a shadowy manufacturer of Francophile conspiracies in the current political climate I might consider smearing the Nazi ahead of the probably-not-that-Socialist-really candidate fwiw.

i dont think "knowing only what law enforcement and friends of the victim are saying" is the same thing as not knowing anything

c'mon, everyone knows how much the police aggressively pursue rape cases. it's like their number one thing. that's why the conviction rate is so high.

xxp: ... by request, or...?

not by request, it was quite a surprise to have a goldfish presented to me within 10 minutes of checking in, and i worried that i was responsible for eg feeding it, checking it didn't die, for quite a while

I might consider smearing the Nazi

kinda difficult if you think abt it

haha aw, I was hoping this was some weird hotel rider you insisted upon, like "I will not stay at this establishment unless you provide me with one (1) goldfish, to be changed daily with a new, fresh goldfish or goldfish equivalent (no guppies!)"

How many goldfish did you have by the end of your stay? Did they replace the previous day's one or what?

they replaced it every day! it was this place http://www.epichotel.com/

okay totally staying there, that pool is baller

I love watching the fucking backflips in this thread. "Oh its just conjecture, it MUST be a conspiracy".

it really was, can i have another press trip please, any lovely PR people who may be reading this

says the company history on the website:

1993. Launched the Hotel Monaco Guppy Love goldfish program to keep guests company while traveling.

Even the claim it was consensual was an unattributed leak. Again, per Slate here: http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/05/17/strauss_kahn_rape_scandal_unattributed_sources_hint_that_sex_was.html

To be clear, DSK’s lawyers have yet to publicly offer the specifics of their defense strategy – either in court or out of it – and they may yet argue that the sex was consensual. But if the Post really is talking with people privy to the defense team’s internal thoughts, then it raises the question of why that person would share the information with the paper.

The likely answer would be that it was a bid to help DSK score a much-needed victory in the U.S. court of public opinion, a place where he has taken a beating since news broke of his arrest Saturday.

But if that was the intent, the effort was far from a success. The Post story quickly pivots from the consensual defense to what it calls “disturbing information” about how DSK was “coolly having lunch with his daughter” and conducting business phone calls after the alleged attack. And, of course, there was the front-page, all-caps headline: HE DID HAVE SEX WITH THE MAID.

Considering the hotel charged FOUR TIMES AS MUCH for a room the night after the arrest

I'm not sure I buy this. Does being the site of a well-publicised alleged rape make a hotel a more desirable tourist destination? It's more likely that they offer a reduced rate to delegations from the IMF, or just tabloid bullshit.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 18 May 2011 09:38 (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This has probably got more to do with the incident taking place at a weekend and the next day being a weekday, when rates will jump anyway.

Damn the goldfish giving hotel is, well, epic. My parents are about to move to FL. That hotel alone warrants a side trip to Miami.

oh god. ben stein.

not by request, it was quite a surprise to have a goldfish presented to me within 10 minutes of checking in, and i worried that i was responsible for eg feeding it, checking it didn't die, for quite a while

― that's my hair no horses up there (lex pretend), Wednesday, May 18, 2011 10:44 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

^^ <3 this. But . . . this fish! What am I supposed to do with it?!

Came here to actually, you know, say something but got distracted by all this goldfish gifting!

I might consider smearing the Nazi ahead of the probably-not-that-Socialist-really candidate fwiw. DSK the more likely victor than Marine Le Pen, who's a spoiler but not a likely winner.

According to Le Figaro reporter who was just staying there, there's some kind of business convention this week. That may have something to do with room rates, too.

So, basically, its irrelevant detail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387847/IMF-chief-Dominique-Strauss-Kahn-sex-attack-victim-told-brother-assault.html

"Police also reportedly found blood on bed sheets in the hotel suite where the assault allegedly took place and DNA samples on carpet and fabric that they removed for testing."

How left-leaning can you be when simultaneously running the IMF anyway?

My husband said the exact same thing.

You guys make me laugh. How is the IMF NOT a center-left institution?

more concerned with removal of bad debts from banking institutions than anything else, afaict

by being one of the key institutional agents of neoliberal economics, i suspect

loaded onto govt debt, i mean.

Not very lefty imo?

hm knows all the right words, listen to him instead tbh

Something about their tendency to push for higher taxes and lessen corporate taxes. Dunno, should ask him. He knows more about politics/history than I do (obviously)

^^ was just going to ask in what ways the objectives of the IMF would be irreconcilable with left leaning sympathies

BHL's intervention is next-level, even if DSK proves to be totally innocent. BHL says he is not as other men and should not be subject to the same rules. pretty appalling stuff from a frenchman.

Yeah, his quote was almost worse than Ben Stein's.

The two look a bit alike, do they not?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/5/18/1305689104920/Bernard-Henri-Levy-Bernar-006.jpg

theyve got the "old french guy" look

more concerned with removal of bad debts from banking institutions than anything else, afaict What else would the International Monetary Fund suppose to be doing?

what does whoopi goldberg think?

BHL has become a complete buffoon.

What else would the International Monetary Fund suppose to be doing?

― Concatenated without abruption (Michael White), Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:28 PM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark

dictating government policy

become?

note the qualifying 'complete'.

Duly noted.

it mightn't do anything else, michael, but what's left wing about it?

Depends on your left-wingery, but international cooperation and lender of last resort kind of stuff, is maybe not exactly Trotskyite but it's not laissez-faire or nationalist, either.

Anyway, the Jospin/DSK side of the French Socialist Party isn't exactly hard left.

depends on how they operate that, really. Shifting private debt to public as a first resort isn't a great 'balance of payments' move

lol at taking this discussion out of the imf thread only for it to become the new imf/towel thread

yeah well that was going to happen

throwing the towel in with the imf

New country description ;_; ;_; ;_;

Bah, we set up a separate thread to get the DSK stuff out of the IMF thread, and what happens? People start discussing the IMF here.

Take the DSK conversation to Hotel Goldfish - Classic or Dud?

jol out

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/imf_accuser_in_apt_for_hiv_vics_oZmUkbtouJ14RHw1434HvJ

That's a lot of detail - feel like I haven't been following this closely at all. Was Jacob Zuma's case anything like this?

Wow. If she has AIDS bet he's even less of a happy "consensual" sex camper now.

?

I keep thinking 'bout how if he'd been in NYC on official business, he would've had diplomatic immunity. Maybe he forgot it doesn't extent to private business trips.

The IMF would almost certainly have waived his immunity in this case, though.

Room service let Ms Diallo in

christ that BHL piece is disgusting

Who is Ms. Diallo? Is that the victim?

apparently. didn't know her name had been released.

Not in the US it hasn't. First I've seen it mentioned.

all this "blame the victim"/conspiracy theory stuff is disgusting

^Shakes otm; I've been puzzling for three hours for the best way to put this. Wtg

the tone of that ny post article/its comment section is disgusting. "hey, he did a bad thing, but he might've gotten HIV after doing it so KARMA'S A BITCH, HUH???"

also, "the humiliated 62-year-old..."? OH, POBRECITO

I'm not gonna get into how pathetic/offensive that whole "she had HIV!" avenue of inquiry is except to point out that instances of female-to-male HIV transmission are statistically very, very low

just FYI

This is obv the least important aspect of anything, but I find it weird that nobody writing for a newspaper can consistently spell "Strauss-Kahn".

For example:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/18/grand-jury
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2011/05/18/01003-20110518ARTFIG00688-un-nouveau-temoin-dans-l-affaire-strauss-kahn.php

Resignation submitted

"BHL says he is not as other men and should not be subject to the same rules. pretty appalling stuff from a frenchman"

No, actually this is very French-like (or at least representative of a certain France): see the Cesare Battisti case of some years ago.

I'm sick of all these men doing a big SMH over the 'tragic waste' of a man's career. There's one really obvious way DSK could have prevented this turn of events.

The only real conspiracy here is that which covers for and excuses the sexual whims of powerful men, and that one's been going for centuries (handily, the French have a nice, pat name for it - droit de seigneur).

True indeed.
One of the most disturbing effects of this affair has been the sudden florilege on many European newspapers of ponderous analyses of American sexophobia, with misleading comparisons with Bill Clinton and Tiger Woods.

rmde

It does really seem like Rape Week in the news, between Slutwalks, DSK and the monumentally stupid comments of Britain's Justice Minister, who refuted a female broadcaster's assertion that 'rape is rape'. I hope these stories overlapping form enough of a tipping-point to put a dent in certain notions of privilege.

all this "blame the victim"/conspiracy theory stuff is disgusting

I don't really see the "blame the victim". But maybe I'm not reading the same sources as you are. I just find it exceptionally sad that there is no anonimity for her and him. It must be frightening for her. Being thrown into this media cesspool.

No, actually this is very French-like

I think there was some very English-like sarcasm in the original post

nope! there wasn't. i thought france was all about universal human rights n shit. the enlightenment. not... special people getting special treatment based on their social rank.

Yeah they've really followed through on that in the last 200-odd years

you'd think - but one look at how education works there will put paid to that idea

xpost

"i thought france was all about universal human rights n shit. the enlightenment"

Generally France is all about France.

nonetheless, surprised to see a philosopher-type-figure (who's all about exporting democratic values) making the real position so clear and obvious

Guys, can you mark up if you are being sarc or not sarc, it's hard to read this otherwise? (notsarc)

nonetheless, surprised to see a philosopher-type-figure (who's all about exporting democratic values) making the real position so clear and obvious

A philosopher-type-figure who increasingly appears to have lost his marbles

Friend in Paris who'd know says all achieving boomer-era/'68 men have this priapic sense of entitlement and belittle women as these flighty, emotional creatures because they're just selfish libertarians whose intellectual preoccupations are pursued in homosocial environments.

Couldn't agree more. I've been trying for the past 5mns to write something to the tune of BHL is a tool who's coasting on goodwill earned a long time ago, so please don"t take anything he says as representative of anything.

xp

who's being sark besides sark himself

He's basically a celebrity-provocateur rather than a philosopher, no? Like maybe we have Richard Littlejohn.

I think Lévy is pretty coherent with himself: its just that his definition of "democratic values" should be read through his (mostly Parisian) milieu (not to mention several centuries of French and European cultural history - even if someone like Raymond Aron probably would have had a completely different reaction).

On a broader context, this is why I am always a bit puzzled/surprised when I see how popular certain French philosophers are in American and (to a lesser extent) British universities (but the same could apply to Antonio Negri). Something is definitely lost in the translation.

I don't think French philosophers are popular in British universities, Brits tend to look down their nose at them

an old, old joke about French, German and British philosophers:

A Frenchman, an Englishman and a German were assigned to study the camel.
The Frenchman went to the zoo at the Jardin des Plantes, spent half an hour there, talked to the keeper, threw bread to the camel, teased it with the tip of his umbrella, and, when he got home, wrote a column, for his newspaper, full of keen and spiritual observations.
The Englishman, along with his tea-box and comfortable camping supplies, went and set up his tent in the Oriental countries, and after a stay of two or three years, produced a thick volume overflowing with facts, without order or conclusion, but with real documentary value.
As for the German, full of disdain for the Frenchman’s frivolousness and the Englishman’s absence of general ideas, he closed himself up in his room to write a work of several volumes, entitled: Idea of the camel drawn from the conception of the self.

xpost Yeah IK, BHL is a celebrity-provocateur. If you're famous and/or a friend of BHL's, you can always count on him to speak up for you.

a question that occurred to me is

if Sarkozy wins the election next year (and this business might possibly help him do that)

what difference would it make in any practical policy terms?

as opposed to a PS candidate winning.

I have a sense that Sarkozy is quite unpopular and thus might not be emboldened to do much
he might even 'tack to the centre' in a campaign and be quite meek thereafter

then again, if he wins, he might be proud and defiant like W when he won his second term

Is he more likely to tack to the centre to draw PS voters in or tack to the right to reclaim ground from Le Pen?

What, he might go up to his dad and go "ner ner ner, I won two, and You only won one, ner ner ner"

Right now, he's certainly trying a lot more to get the far right vote than the centre ones. I don't see any reason for him to change that.

Also I think that if he won, he might go all out and try and pass a lot of laws because he knows that as unpopular as he might become, he won't have to campaign for presidency anymore.

xpost The HIV-housing thing, like several aspects of this case, has already been denied by the defense. Lots of stuff up in the air. As much as I hate entitled French assholes prone to womanizing (at best) and assault (at worst), if I were being honest with myself I keep flashing back to the Duke lacrosse frat rape case, which targeted similarly entitled assholes, which led me to judge them guilty from the get-go. But of course, it all fell apart, after said assholes went through the ringer of public shame, of course. I want this victim to have her day in court, but until all the details get sorted out and the defense actually offers, you know, a defense, I'm more curious about what happened than convinced of anyone's culpability.

There is a vast difference between withholding judgement until the facts are established, and "the conspiracy theory in some ways seems more plausible than the actual purported scenario", "what if, like, DSK was told a call girl was on her way up, and then the maid showed up instead?", "everything we know about this case so far has come from law enforcement or friends of the victim, which of course follows the prosecution script", etc, etc, et fucking cetera.

Conspiracy theory strikes me as utterly ludicrous, even by conspiracy theory standards

the conspiracy theorists are completely ridiculous, but at the same time, the french do have a point about how it's wrong for the police to parade someone who has been arrested but not convicted in front of the press. I am sure that today, when most americans think of DSK they think "rapist" even though he has not been convicted of anything yet and I think that is in large part because the arrest is such a big public event.

idk exactly what literal parading in front of the press has gone on, but how was this ever not going to be a huge story?

you know at some point the press does have to report that someone was charged with a crime, right?

and usually, that person has a name and a photograph?

he might even 'tack to the centre' in a campaign and be quite meek thereafter

Interestingly, he has already required that companies w/50 employees or more who offer a dividend to investors also give their employees some kind of bonus. Not at all MEDEF friendly.

yeah, maybe it's just me but I just think there's a huge difference between showing a stock photo of someone and showing a picture of them in handcuffs. I'm not blaming the press here, I'm blaming the police for not doing at least minimal effort to protect the privacy of someone who is arrested.

xp

Not US law-enforcement's style at all.

"the conspiracy theorists are completely ridiculous, but at the same time, the french do have a point about how it's wrong for the police to parade someone who has been arrested but not convicted in front of the press"

I completely agree with this, but in France (just like in Italy) arrested people "parade" on tv all the time without too many complaints.

xpost I'm no conspiracy theorist, but as I noted above, this is a rare instance where I can't dismiss the conspiracies outright as nuts. And as for "everything we know about this case so far has come from law enforcement or friends of the victim, which of course follows the prosecution script," this is 100% accurate, and I (and everyone) have seen enough similar cases with some fucked up, questionable prosecutions.

^ Doesn't mean this is one of them, just saying. Again, my reaction to the similar Duke lacrosse team rape scandal was very similar to my reaction here, and I got totally burned there.

... Totally burned how? Did you have money riding on the outcome?

Not sure how the conspiracy theory thing was supposed to have played out. Was the maid in the French secret service? Or are we supposed to believe that some shadowy Sarko goons just approached a New York hotel maid with a suitcase full of money and hoped she'd say yes without telling anyone?

Could have been Hollande's goons, too, yaknow.

this board has ruined the usage of the word "goon" forever, I'm now imagining a 16-year-old bribing this maid with a pile of mixtapes

The poor folks in charge of @SoftielNYC...

Haven't seen any women muttering darkly about conspiracy theories; could there be a reason for this?

Same call girls as Spitzer, eh?

upthread I linked to an article w/ the amazingly high % of French people who think this is a conspiracy. that figure is gonna include women.

(it was 57% of the population and 70% of socialists)

wow, that's a lot of guys

57% of rich, white males think this is a conspiracy and that "she got what was coming".

all this "blame the victim"/conspiracy theory stuff is disgusting

I don't really see the "blame the victim". But maybe I'm not reading the same sources as you are. I just find it exceptionally sad that there is no anonimity for her and him. It must be frightening for her. Being thrown into this media cesspool.

― Nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, May 19, 2011 4:55 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

Idk who is blaming the victim; I think Shakes is saying that conspiracy speculation--itt & elsewhere--is just close enough to calling a rape victim a liar to provoke outrage

Marco really? I thought perp walks were illegal in France.

Bloomberg defended it, saying "I think it is humiliating, but if you don't want to do the perp walk, don't do the crime." Interesting logic there.

lol!

xxpost Ah sorry, I was confused.

no apologies necessary; i think the point should be made again & again (bcz it keeps getting lost...)

hope this isn't too outrageously offensive, but...

i think it's acceptable to speculate that any accusation in a criminal case might be false. we should certainly resist the inclination to assume that certain types of accusations/accusers are false, but it's okay to ask questions, to wonder aloud, especially when the stakes are high and solid evidence is hard to come by.

DSK hasn't denied making advances on the maid, BTW.

is just close enough to calling a rape victim a liar to provoke outrage

Facts are heard to determine so we entrust their finding to a jury. That jury has not been empaneled. DSK remains innocent until proven guilty. Do I have a prejudice? Hell, yes, but he retains his right to his defense just like anyone else.

I don't think anyone itt, or otherwise, are denying that he deserves a fair trial. I'm just surprised at the backflips conspiracy theorists will make to squeeze things into a narrative.

suzy, fwiw, from his resignation letter to the IMF:

A tous, je veux dire que je réfute avec la plus extrême fermeté tout ce qui m’est reproché

DSK hasn't denied making advances on the maid, BTW.

has he confirmed, tho?

Well, I highly doubt he'll confirm ANYTHING at this point.

You type fast!

xpost Could you highlight the backflips that have been performed? Because I haven't noticed any especially acrobatic reasoning so far itt.

yeah and even the 'non-conspiracy theory' narrative is pretty strange and unclear at the moment.

Le Monde had a pretty cool piece about the conspiracists in France this morning. There's some interesting soul-searching about freedom of the press and privacy laws going on. DSK was respected, well-liked and expected to run for president and this took a lot of people by suprise; a surprise that led many of them on the left to hare-brained theories born of denial. I'm pretty sure that as this plays out, the conspiracists' numbers will diminish but who knows?

yeah and even the 'non-conspiracy theory' narrative is pretty strange and unclear at the moment.

OTM. Whatever we find out, this is one weird case.

well, the dominant non-conspiracy narrative isn't so much unclear as it is shocking

I feel like this happening in america is a pretty big trigger for the French conspiracy theorists. xp

^I wd def agree w that

Oh yeah, Le Monde also mentioned anti-Americanism and the french perception of the 'brutality' of our law-enforcement/judicial system (mostly based on TV/movies).

Gotta say the kind of smirky, nudge nudge wink wink, "he's a ladies man" stuff I keep seeing from French commentators/ polticians is kinda repulsive to my (not Anglo-Saxon, actually) Celtic sensiblities

xpost Could you highlight the backflips that have been performed? Because I haven't noticed any especially acrobatic reasoning so far itt.

I wasn't referring to anyone itt, just other things I've seen on the net. In retrospect, I guess it isn't so much "backflips" I'm noting as much as sheer disbelief that anything untoward could have possibly happened. I guess I just don't really feel it impossible to believe that a man would abuse his powerful station for sexual gratification. Not at all implying that I believe he IS guilty, but, really, is it that much of a stretch to believe it could have happened?

the french perception of the 'brutality' of our law-enforcement/judicial system (mostly based on TV/movies)

Not only French people who conclude the wrong thing from TV/movies. I've read people going "oh no, they found DNA in his hotel room, he's guilty!" because, you know, if CSI finds your DNA at the crime scene, you were there, so never mind what the hell it is, DNA equals guilt.

French people loveee dubbed versions of these shows too

I keep wanting to reply but I always see my words on the screen and realize they could be misinterpreted. Like the fact he's a ladies man. Well, that could be the case and maybe he did approach her. And she misinterpreted his actions. Went to declare it, police considered it rape and it spiraled out of control.
It is such a difficult matter in my opinion. :-(

the problem with conspiracy theorists is sometimes they are right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

but projections in absence of fact in situations like these just expose ppl's prejudices imo

now I'm confused, isn't it alleged that he forced her to give him oral sex or am I conflating this with the Wake Forest basketball player case?

that's the story I head I mean heard

Yes, allegedly he forced her to have oral sex.

This was when he was having lunch with his daughter was it? That was his original story. Maid under the table perhaps?

the problem with conspiracy theorists is sometimes they are right

Fair play, I suppose. I mean, maybe its just the way my brain works, but when I hear of cases like this I don't immediately jump to "massive conspiracy to bring down the guy". I just think, "interesting to see how this plays out".

I guess I just don't really feel it impossible to believe that a man would abuse his powerful station for sexual gratification. Not at all implying that I believe he IS guilty, but, really, is it that much of a stretch to believe it could have happened?

― 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:15 AM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark

most of the conspiracy talk i've seen hasn't been predicated on sheer disbelief, though. it more frequently seems to stem from the sense that "the whole thing smells" or w/e. based on a combination of DSK's political stature, the grotesque stupidity of his alleged crimes, his recently expressed worries about being set up in just such a fashion, and the fact that this happened in a unpopular/untrusted foreign land.

Something like 20 mins before. xxpost

This DSK interview from April 28th is pretty weird, to say the least.

I don't want to give off the wrong impression here, I honestly have no notion one way or the other. I just think there's a much simpler explanation (in either direction!) than some sort of "massive conspiracy".

i know what you mean contendo about the logistics of the crime not appearing to make sense

Okay, in light of the allegation, let's go back to this:

I keep wanting to reply but I always see my words on the screen and realize they could be misinterpreted. Like the fact he's a ladies man. Well, that could be the case and maybe he did approach her. And she misinterpreted his actions. Went to declare it, police considered it rape and it spiraled out of control.

In order for this hypothetical to work, either the maid is outright lying about the oral sex or is lying about being forced; I can't imagine there's very much confusion or misunderstanding about what's happening once a dick is in your mouth!

xxpost thanks jon. I guess I felt that the discourse here was walking the line between both extremes pretty well so far. And your first post (yesterday) did say explicitly "I love watching the fucking backflips in this thread" so I wanted to know what I was missing *in this thread*.

Comes in paranoid about cell phone and being spied on by Guéant, the Minister of the Interior and then, talking about if he might run for president, evokes three things that will be used against him:

"...les principales difficultés à surmonter pour lui. Il en voit trois, dans cet ordre : «Le fric, les femmes et ma judéité.» Mais, au moment de développer, il commence par les femmes. «Oui, j’aime les femmes… Et alors ? […] Depuis des années on parle de photos de partouzes géantes, mais je n’ai jamais rien vu sortir… Alors qu’ils les montrent !» DSK évoque alors une scène où il se retrouve dans une pissotière avec Nicolas Sarkozy, lors d’un sommet international, et lui demande d’arrêter de le salir sur sa vie privée. Tout à sa volonté de se poser en victime, Strauss-Kahn se met à imaginer «une femme [qu’il aurait] violée dans un parking et à qui on promettrait 500 000 ou un million d’euros pour inventer une telle histoire…»

xxpost thanks jon. I guess I felt that the discourse here was walking the line between both extremes pretty well so far. And your first post (yesterday) did say explicitly "I love watching the fucking backflips in this thread" so I wanted to know what I was missing *in this thread*.

Well, in my defense yesterday, the thread really hadn't evolved in the way it has since I posted that. Also, I hadn't really studied up more on the whole case.

alright, what is it exactly that seems off to ppl about this case? is it the forced oral sex?

It's the timing; dude was ranting about how he was afraid someone was going to set him up for a scandal, and then POOF scandal.

(personally I think he was doing subconscious or intentional CYA in case his endless quest for extramarital sexual release blew up in his face, but that's just me)

"Yeah, I like the ladies. What of it? For years now people have talked of photos of huge orgies but I've never seen anything come out. Let them show them!" He talks about talking to Sarkozy while talking a piss during some international summit and asking Sarko to stop taking shit about about his private life. He also imagines some lady who he has supposedly raped in a parking garage (?!) to whom 500,000 Euros have been promised to invent such a story.

I can see why certain ppl might run to conspiracy theories when he had been interviewed a fortnight before and said such stuff.

quest for extramarital sexual release blew up in his face,

Dan, is this wording really necessary?

It's the timing; dude was ranting about how he was afraid someone was going to set him up for a scandal, and then POOF scandal.

This guy is anything but a POOF, eh? Knowhorrimean, guv'nor? Corrrrrr... loves the ladies and ladies love him, eh? Puts it about like nobody's business. Phwwwwoooarrr, I would...

Now I'm thinking of Grenade by Bruno Mars, great. xp

If we can't have questionable sexual innuendo puns itt, we are all GUILTY.

^^^ OTM

alright, what is it exactly that seems off to ppl about this case? is it the forced oral sex?

― excitebikable boy (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:32 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

well, i don't think the allegation seem "off", but i can see why they might, to some. DSK behavior as described sounds unhinged, flagrantly self-destructive, hardly what you might expect of a politically astute man who's spent his public career managing a taste for sexual indiscretions. all that, of course, depends on what we assume about power and its privileges...

^right I was going to say something like that...predicting the scandal in an interview certainly indicates a certain sort of self-awareness that wd seem to preclude locking a maid in your hotel room for 20 mins and forcibly having your way with her.

Eh, it's like a bottle of whiskey to another.

interview quotes just remind me of Gary Hart daring the media to follow him

Not sure how the conspiracy theory thing was supposed to have played out. Was the maid in the French secret service? Or are we supposed to believe that some shadowy Sarko goons just approached a New York hotel maid with a suitcase full of money and hoped she'd say yes without telling anyone?

if it was a black bag job there are a lot of ways to influence someone without paying them - threats of deportation for you or your family members, harassment, etc. plus the guy was head of the IMF, so it's entirely possible he has enemies beyond just the national politics of france.

conversely, he could just be an entitled psychopathic dick, as this story would imply...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/world/europe/17banonbox.html

tbf Michael White is absolutely right, dude is innocent until proven guilty, a jury will decide it in due time, etc. but I find a lot of the media speculation about conspiracies and key cards and where the maid lives to be just extremely ugly and revealing of various prejudices.

xp

predicting the scandal in an interview certainly indicates a certain sort of self-awareness

... that the fact that you can't keep your cock in your pocket is more likely to become an issue when you're running for the presidency of your country than it is when you're the head of the IMF?

also still loling at Dan's goon/mixtape/bribery image upthread

Apparently, his history of being a singularly (even amongst the French) out and out ladies' man was no secret, really

okay this whole "everyone is as fluent in French as I am" stuff is getting ridiculous now

I can translate if you want but it's getting recycled in our press too, I believe.

It's just too, I don't know, simple to imagine the scenario that some party could have paid this woman more $$$$$ than she'll ever earn working to trap this notorious womanizer into something like this. "Oooh, you're looking good coming out of the shower like that, mister" "Hon hon hon, c'est qui ton papa?" - except if anyone WOULD have done something like this, wouldn't they have at least hidden a camera in his room like tabloids famously tend to do instead of risking this his word vs. her word we're having now?

once the accusation is out the natural inclination is to believe it, there doesn't seem to be any way for it not to have happened substantially as claimed without veering towards genuinely fantastic conspiracy movie cliche

That accepted, for it to have happened as reported is also just .... bizarre.

You'd posit a middle ground but where do you find any between the two stories? 'misunderstanding' is a farcical word to use in such a violent & serious situation.

MW no need to translate, I'm sure an English version will pop up eventually; I'm just saying it's kind of hilarious!

except if anyone WOULD have done something like this, wouldn't they have at least hidden a camera in his room like tabloids famously tend to do instead of risking this his word vs. her word we're having now?

"Yes we hid a camera in his room JUST IN CASE something like this happened and this is IN NO WAY A SETUP".

DJP, I know I read a Quatremer interview for a Brit paper yesterday.

xp to stanm, but, and again we're only positing a moronic conspiracy theory here, if they wanted accusations of assault then a camera showing consensual sex isn't a desirable addition.

And the french aren't going to give two shits about him havibg consensal sex anyway

So the camera isn't a surprise omission, if it were a setup

Which, y'know, it almost certainly wasn't

This one of those major Schopenhauer moments, for sure.

We should all keep in mind that conspiracy theories are FUN, and it's for this that many people are dabbling in them rather than out of some identification with power etc

And we all know the Russians paid Monica L.

It's just fascinating to see the same people who automatically assume that Assange didn't rape that Swedish woman because he's like this robin hood freedom fighter hero now automatically assume that Strauss-Kahn did it because he's a rich bastard and she's a poor maid.

perhaps this is a little touch of 90s democrats trying to ruin the various women bill clinton fucked around with. "gennifer flowers? what kind of dumb whore spells it with a g anyway!!"

We should all keep in mind that conspiracy theories are FUN, and it's for this that many people are dabbling in them rather than out of some identification with power etc

also just a habitual mode of thought for many

It's just fascinating to see the same people who automatically assume that Assange didn't rape that Swedish woman because he's like this robin hood freedom fighter hero now automatically assume that Strauss-Kahn did it because he's a rich bastard and she's a poor maid.

Not many people here like that, I'd say

Maybe not, but at work, for example.

We should all keep in mind that conspiracy theories are FUN, and it's for this that many people are dabbling in them rather than out of some identification with power etc

yeah I kinda feel like the first priority in a rape case is protecting the victim (including from her detractors, ie ppl calling her 'liar') not speculating ecstatically about how DSK 'totally called it' or whether or how much the secret Sarkozy cabal paid off the maid

protecting both parties wd be better, surely? Until some sort of legitimate trial has taken place, at least?

You just can't have a man like DSK not show up for a meeting with the world leaders and not explain where he is, though?

yeah I kinda feel like the first priority in a rape case is protecting the victim

This assumes that the accused is guilty. I tend to agree, btw, but it's problematic.

Where's Judge Judy when you need her? This could have been over in a day!

xp to stan re public figures just disappearing

You don't read about camogie by any chance?

It's just fascinating to see the same people who automatically assume that Assange didn't rape that Swedish woman because he's like this robin hood freedom fighter hero now automatically assume that Strauss-Kahn did it because he's a rich bastard and she's a poor maid.

I think it's because casting aspersions on (reported) rape victims is kind of dickish.

perhaps this is a little touch of 90s democrats trying to ruin the various women bill clinton fucked around with. "gennifer flowers? what kind of dumb whore spells it with a g anyway!!"

― goole, Thursday, 19 May 2011 16:05 (6 minutes ago)

Thing is, there were massive credibility problems with some of them, especially in the one case where Clinton was actually accused of a real crime (Willey.) I don't really remember the pushback on Gennifer Flowers, tbh.

Here there's no reason to doubt the maid's story, other than the general wtfness of an IMF chief totally going batshit months before running for President of France.

darragh: I have no idea what you mean - just googled the word and it's a sport?

Not understanding what goes through a rapist's mind is a common thread here, which I'm thankful for at least.

i sometimes think that france is almost like an entirely different country

lol

what i'm saying is that there might be a lot more at stake (if the success of the socialists against sarkozy counts as "a lot more") for a lot of people on the french center-left when they try to make sense of what DSK might have done.

if you don't want someone to have done something, you can find a reason to believe it!

xp

my lips are sealed stan! On a public message board at least.

This is prejudicial but the report by Tristane Banon of his alleged sexual agression on her is eerily similar and terrifying.

I saw that report (in context of: where are privacy laws going, exactly?) and it's awful and damning.

Strauss-Kahn, who is known in his home country as the ‘Great Seducer’, is said to have left the hotel in a hurry, forgetting a mobile phone and other items.

just a thought, eff ewe, wrong thread, etc...

In order for this hypothetical to work, either the maid is outright lying about the oral sex or is lying about being forced; I can't imagine there's very much confusion or misunderstanding about what's happening once a dick is in your mouth!

Well, dick in mouth is usually oral sex. (Can't imagine what other point there is to it.) But what I meant was that this is all from one side and the story seems to be changing all the time.

yeah I kinda feel like the first priority in a rape case is protecting the victim

He could just as much be the victim here.

http://kobason.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/dsk9.jpg

translate?

You're staying in jail until May 20th, at least.
I'll qualify for a a chamber maid, at least.

(something like that?)

femme de menage

"I'll have the right to a maid? At least."

HO HO

That accepted, for it to have happened as reported is also just .... bizarre.

This is sort of what I was getting at. Horrible as it is to say it, there are myriad ways this guy, given his status and power, could have done as accused and likely gotten away with it. But the guy is being accused of doing what he's being accused of in the most audaciously blatant manner possible, which is so un-cautious, spontaneous and reckless it's almost like he wanted to get caught. A prominent guy waits in a hotel room for a woman to enter - someone just randomly doing their rounds, no less - and then immediately assault her? It's possible but still bizarre. Factor in the alleged perp's claim, just a week beforehand, that he suspected something fishy afoot and it just gets even more bizarre. Then again, having read the incredible New Yorker "Murder in Guatemala" piece, I know that anything and everything is possible, no matter how far-fetched.

A prominent guy waits in a hotel room for a woman to enter - someone just randomly doing their rounds, no less - and then immediately assault her? It's possible but still bizarre.

Sadly, I don't think this situation is all that "bizarre".

that is completely bizarre

Look, raping hotel maids is a fucking mental thing to do. Normal, rational people do not do it. Attempting to ascribe the norms of everyday behaviour to it will of course make it seem "bizarre".

It is also not that surprising that Strauss-Kahn would make public comments about fearing being smeared for sexual asault one week before... committing a sexual assault.

it's not impossible, nor, if his history as reported is to be believed, out of character. but it's still unbelievable behaviour.

well yeah xp

It is also not that surprising that Strauss-Kahn would make public comments about fearing being smeared for sexual asault one week before... committing a sexual assault.

I find this surprising, am I just naive?

well the two ways of looking at it are it was either a moment of psychic clarity prediction shit or a very clever CYA move

Look, raping hotel maids is a fucking mental thing to do. Normal, rational people do not do it. Attempting to ascribe the norms of everyday behaviour to it will of course make it seem "bizarre".

rape (its evils and conditions), normalcy, rationality, and "everyday behavior" are social constructs. they vary a lot from place to place, person to person - often in ways that seem shocking when exposed in different contexts. most depressing suggestion in all this is that the behavior in question might have seemed or even really been "normal" elsewhere in DSK's life.

Well, he could very well be pathological, yeah. But it seems hard to believe he's made it this far as a serial rapist. Maybe he's been in full-on Patrick Bateman hide in plain sight mode, because context or no I can't imagine any western mores being in line with what he's done.

I can't imagine any western mores being in line with what he's done.

much of the french writing posted itt (from le figaro, etc., some of it from before the arrest) suggests that french standards and expectations regarding this sort of behavior differ from those of the rest of the world - especially the USA - and that this is common knowledge in france.

which is to say that "western mores" = a kind of wishful thinking

Except that 'womanizing' and being a 'great seducer' are still recognizably different than rape, even in France.

He's back in court at the moment, his lawyer has a new bail proposition ($1M, will stay under house arrest at his daughter's apartment in NYC, has handed in his passport so he won't leave the country).

I didn't know you could counterpropose after a judge refused bail, but we'll see I guess?

Also, electronic surveillance.

Except that 'womanizing' and being a 'great seducer' are still recognizably different than rape, even in France.

of course, didn't mean to suggest otherwise

You can apply for bail at any time I think, but if a judge has already refused and nothing's changed you won't get it.

FWIW, I wasn't referring to this particular case when I said it wasn't "bizarre", I was talking about the set-up of a horny man waiting in a hotel room for an unsuspecting woman to pop in, in the hopes of "action". I've known enough women that have worked in hotels to know this happens a LOT.

Really?

I keep thinking of Cato in the Pink Panther movies, btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw1f94dx4xo&feature=related

Or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2dtAi5Za-s

dudes nobody has contended that he "immediately assaulted her". he didn't have to like, surprise her with his wang hanging out for it to be a rape. things can start consensual and then get nonconsensual.

i mean, i have no idea if any of it was consensual but the idea that he's sitting there in his hotel room, premeditating a rape is pretty ridiculous, obviously, and i doubt that's how it went down. i don't think most date rapists add a to-do entry in their iPhones to "rape tonight - check" either.

the idea that he's sitting there in his hotel room, premeditating a rape is pretty ridiculous

i don't think so?

have a drink, strip down, put on a bathrobe, call up for a new set of towels, see who comes through the door, eh, they're just hotel girls, i've done this a million times...

^^^^

Not exactly premeditating "rape", but something.

Bail granted

Doesn't mean much, though. Madoff was bailed too and look where he is now.

i don't think most date rapists add a to-do entry in their iPhones to "rape tonight - check" either.

I saw a 90210 repeat lately and it TOTALLY went down this way. Luckily David Austin Green was around with a baseball bat and Donna was saved. *whew*

just sayin most talk of this has hypothesised a jump-out-from-behind the bushes type of situation which is not how most rapes happen

The initial reports (probably from the police report) described her entering the room to clean, him emerging naked from the bathroom.

^^^ I really want to play comma games with that sentence and it would be in such poor taste

"...to clean him, emerging..."?

I am so obvious sometimes

rape (its evils and conditions), normalcy, rationality, and "everyday behavior" are social constructs. they vary a lot from place to place, person to person - often in ways that seem shocking when exposed in different contexts. most depressing suggestion in all this is that the behavior in question might have seemed or even really been "normal" elsewhere in DSK's life.

― contenderizer, Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:08 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

OH GOD STOP IT

Was that BHL's contribution?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the initial report has yet to be contested, right? That the housecleaner knocked, entered the room, called out to see if anyone was there, started to make the bed, then was surprised by DSK emerging naked from the bathroom. She apologized and tried to leave, he blocked the door and raped her. It'd be weird even if it began consensually. He'd been in New York for two days, right? It'd be weird if he'd even established a consensual relationship with this random immigrant maid just the day before, unless this guy has been reading that Neil Strauss (related?) book and truly is King Playa. Or Ralph Fiennes.

http://www.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/8/MPW-4047

well when you put it like that, i'm not sure what was weird about the initial report at all tbh

i think the conspiracy explanation is somewhat weirder

Both pretty weird. Conspiracy is weirder.

the scenario you describe sucks a lot but I think you are hard-pressed to call it "weird"

unless one person attacking/assaulting another person is by definition "weird"

Well, there's that. But the "weird" aspect is something I addressed above: horrible though it may be, this is a guy totally in a position to get away with something like this, had he not done exactly what he was accused of doing. This was in the afternoon, in a more or less public arena, with help nearby, in a room, rented out to his name. This is like a page out of the book "How to Get Caught at Violent Sexual Assault." But I concede I may be being naive.

Not to go down the rabbit hole, but seems unlikely "they" would they wait until standard check-out time (noon) and assume he would miss it before sending someone his way.

this season...love checks in

That the housecleaner knocked, entered the room, called out to see if anyone was there, started to make the bed, then was surprised by DSK emerging naked from the bathroom.

The last account I saw had her being let in by a room service guy (who didn't even know DSK was in the bathroom) who was clearing the breakfast dishes.

So, so audacious, if true. "Well, I wasn't planning to rape anyone before I left, but seeing as you're here ..." Creepy and gross and downright psychopathic.

and rapey, too

OH GOD STOP IT

???

He's asking for divine intervention

oh of course

"just sayin most talk of this has hypothesised a jump-out-from-behind the bushes type of situation which is not how most rapes happen"

Only the funny ones.

NB: There are no funny rapes but that was a softball.

He was basically disagreeing,I think, and hence wrong in doing so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKE9W0O8bX8

Prosecutors allege that a naked Strauss-Kahn, 62, chased the housekeeping employee through his suite and sexually assaulted her.

ok yeesh forget what i said about this not being a jump-out-from-behind-the-bushes type of case

DNA!

(I think this dude is totally guilty btw)

I think we'll never know what really happened. That DNA, if true, doesn't prove a thing. He already admitted something happened.
The only point now is: he says it was consensual, she says it wasn't, that's it. From now on, other factors, prejudices and preferences will decide who wins or loses.

Who gets the best attorney?
Who succeeds in destroying the other's reputation?
Who has the upper hand during the jury selection procedure?
Will the story be reduced to a dichotomy? (Woman vs. man? Muslim vs. Jew? Hard working poor immigrant vs. lazy rich european? African-American vs. causasian? etc)

he says it was consensual, she says it wasn't, that's it

I'm inclined to believe the "she" in these cases

absent solid evidence, i'm inclined to believe no one in all cases, categorically, as a philosophical principle. in this case, i don't know what to think. i'd say that it certainly looks bad for DSK. wasn't there talk at one point of blood traces collected in the room? or did i misread something?

During their investigation, authorities cut out a piece of carpet and swabbed sinks and other surfaces in his hotel room. Investigators told the AP they believed the carpet in the hotel room may contain Strauss-Kahn's semen, spat out after an episode of forced oral sex by the maid.

...

Staff at the Sofitel told authorities that the 62-year-old Strauss-Kahn had made passes at them the day before the attack was reported, including flirting with a clerk and calling another employee to ask her up to his room, according to a third person with direct knowledge of investigators' interviews with staff.

Strauss-Kahn had flirted with one female staff member who accompanied him to his suite to make sure his accommodations were satisfactory after he checked in on May 13, the person said. Later, he phoned the desk clerk who had checked him in, asking her if she would like to get together with him when she got off duty, the person said. The desk clerk refused, saying she was not allowed to socialize with the VIP guest, the person said.

presence of semen indicates that a sex act occurred, at the very least. so, barring her word vs. his, all this other stuff comes into play, and I have a hard time envisioning any scenario where this kind of thing was consensual.

I don't really know what "solid evidence" of non-consent would consist of - a verified recording of her screaming "NO!" or something?

I shudder to think how many semen samples could be drawn from hotel room floors. God knows, this guy probably leaves a trail of DNA wherever he goes ...

Per "solid evidence," I guess the best one could hope for in this case would be signs of a struggle or a fight. Bruises, scrapes, skin under the fingernail or scratches on DSK himself. But again, we really know virtually nothing about this save a few second or third-hand leaked accounts, including (AFAIK) rumors that the defense will claim it was consensual.

yeah, i was talking about some evidence of a struggle, like the (imaginary?) blood traces i seem to remember reading about. not saying that i distrust the alleged victim, just that i'd rather be slow than quick to judgment. after all, i only know what i've read here. i'm at an enormous remove.

She went to the police, even if it meant accusing a rich customer of her employer and risking her job. You don't do that if it was consensual, imho.

well, no, you dont

But what do I know, I thought OJ did it too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkQ5lv66tGY

You don't do that if it was consensual, imho.

no one ever really knows why anyone else does anything. every story or theory could be wrong in unimaginable ways. not to say that we should reject evidence (even "gut feelings" have value), but i don't feel like i know anything about what really happened here.

there doesn't have to be a physical struggle for it to be rape.

oh, i know. though i'm loath to admit it, i'm more likely to believe the accuser than the accused in cases like this, and given the particulars here, it's hard to keep up the "innocent until proven guilty" line...

According to Le Figaro:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/05/25/9f989e76-86a4-11e0-adac-b4c2a15289a9.jpg

something about microgeographies like that always makes me laugh. that looks like the osama hit.

Well, now that I know exactly where the hotel is and what the awning looks like, that explains everything.

I can't read French, but do any of those red dots correspond to DNA?

Elle s'echappe de nouveau

She bought a new hat

do any of those red dots correspond to DNA?

man i hear this all the time

I wish that layout just kept going, bigger and more multi-dimensional. Like, this is the route to Riker's, this is where the maid lives, this is where they wash the towels. Then after a few issues you could assemble your own 3-D scale map of Manhattan.

1) Around noon the maid enters suite 2806 to clean it. A man from room service leaves the premises at the same time. The door already being open, she announces her presence but doesn't hear a response.

2) She cleans the living room and the dining room.

3) Entering the bedroom which is separated from the 100 square meter suite by a door, she finds herself in front of a naked DSK.

4) She excuses herself and makes to leave. DSK follows her, closes the bedroom door and tries to force her to fellate him.

5) Trying to reason with him, she manages to flee catches her in the corridor. He grabs her breasts and tries to disrobe her.

6) She escapes again but slips and falls on the floor near the bathroom. DSK catches up and forces her to fellate him.

7)In the struggle that follows, she pushes DSK up against an armoire injuring him. In the confusion, she flees the suite to seek refuge with her coworkers. Around 1:30 the police is called by the hotel. DSK has already left the Sofitel at 12:28.

she manages to flee but DSK catches her in the corridor

7,5 m , but how high is the ceiling? This is important, Le Figaro.

is there a big 'ol ALLEGEDLY as part of that rundown, or does the french press not have to do that?

What's curious and particularly terrifying about her account is that, assuming she knows the layout of the suite like the back of her hand, she knows she's fleeing his bedroom for a dead-end.

ALLEGEDLY

Oops, I didn't translate the header: "The geography of the facts according to the presumed victim."

"The geography of the facts according to the presumed victim."

If ever a phrase read like it was translated, it's this one.

xxpost If he's between her and the exit, a bathroom that can be locked is probably a good idea.

but do any of those red dots correspond to DNA?

My understanding was that the NYPD was looking in the bathroom but this doesn't mention it.

Good point, Stan.

I wish that layout just kept going, bigger and more multi-dimensional. Like, this is the route to Riker's, this is where the maid lives, this is where they wash the towels. Then after a few issues you could assemble your own 3-D scale map of Manhattan.

Chris Ware to thread

If ever a phrase read like it was translated, it's this one.

If I weren't in a hurry and wanted to be more faithful to versmilitude in English than to the original I could say, "The layout and facts according to the alleged victim", or something...

I was kidding. Your French and English are better than my caveman speak.

Yeah, but it IS clunky in English.

clunky like a fox

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/05/from_the_time_capsule_dominiqu.html

"Are you happy with your husband?"

Une fellation -- new word to me.

"can we all stop pretending that we are shocked and stupefied that a powerful Western politician is a violent predatory psychopath? It sorta, like, goes with the territory."

http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/05/affaire-dsk.html

eh, i'm not in the least shocked by the fact that wars continue or that the world still goes where wealth guides. plus ça change, you know? i am surprised when a highly visible public figure of any sort turns out to be a violent predatory psychopath. color me naïve...

It's true that many of them exercise it through the accepted channels (eg drone missiles)

Basically, what we're surprised at is that he got caught???

Because innocence or guilt he is clearly a monumental asshole.

Yeah. Has this New Yorker piece been linked on this thread yet? Makes him sound like more than just another Frenchman:

Strauss-Kahn, the (now former) chief of the International Monetary Fund, was expected to be the French Socialist Party’s Presidential candidate in next year’s election; and Sinclair, an American-born heiress, was for a long time a host on one of France’s most popular TV news shows. Nearly everyone at the dinner had known them, and it was the handful who knew them best who now spoke most convincingly about his history as an aggressive and incessant groper of women.
According to the stories, he grabbed women in elevators, he cornered them in gardens, and if they resisted he liked to pursue, with phone calls and text messages. Everyone knew, the dinner guests said. For instance, the hostess recalled, there was the time at one of Strauss-Kahn’s homes when he seemed as if he didn’t care who saw him make his moves. Even his wife had to have seen, the hostess said. Surely not, the host said.

"Monumental asshole" or "just another frenchman"?

(throws up his hands)

just another monumental asshole

i think what we're surprised at is a combination of

- how he behaved this way with no previous repercussions
- how he could be stupid enough to do such a thing
- how *this* time was the time he got busted

though i guess he wasn't that stupid if he got away with it for decades. anyway i think it's the dissonance between the first two that shocks ppl.

but mainly the first

Sudden announcement, his appearance before the judge that was going to be on July 18th will now be tomorrow at 11:30 local time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/nyregion/strauss-kahn-case-seen-as-in-jeopardy.html

"Although forensic tests found unambiguous evidence of a sexual encounter between Mr. Strauss-Kahn, a French politician, and the woman, prosecutors do not believe much of what the accuser has told them about the circumstances or about herself."

"According to the two law enforcement officials, the woman had a phone conversation with an incarcerated man within a day of her encounter with Mr. Strauss Kahn in which she discussed the possible benefits of pursuing the charges against him. The conversation was recorded.

That man, the investigators learned, had been arrested on charges of possessing 400 pounds of marijuana. He was among a number of individuals who made multiple cash deposits, totaling around $100,000, into the woman’s bank account over the last two years. The deposits were made in Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia and New York.

They also learned that she was paying hundreds of dollars every month in phone charges to five different companies. The woman insisted she only had a single phone and said she knew nothing about the deposits except that they were made by a man she described as her fiancé and his friends.

In addition, the official said, she told investigators that part of her application for asylum included a previous rape, but there was no such account in the application. She also told them that she had been subjected to genital mutilation, but her account to the investigators differed from what was contained in the asylum application."

And the conspiracy theories launch into further overdrive!

man if this really turns out to be true, that's yet another blow against future victims of similar crimes, whose words will be treated as 'money grubbing fabrications' from the jump.....but I guess we'll wait and see

so, is this looking like a cop-out from prosecutors because her past is too shady to run a case on, or a fabrication that shouldn't have ever been the public circus and demonisation that it was?

it looks like the former to me. They are saying there is definitive evidence of an actual sexual encounter, just that they feel the witness is insufficiently reliable to prove that it was forced. Because when you are DSK hotel staff are always having consensual sexual encounters with you.

If as reported is accurate, it doesn't help the case much for her to get on the phone the next day with her jailed for drug trafficking friend, who may or may not have been laundering money/cell phones through her, the next day and wonder aloud how much they can get out of him. Just because the guy is a dick doesn't make him a rapist, any more than just because the accuser is a woman automatically makes her a victim. The fact that all these doubts stem from the prosecution, not the defense, is pretty damning. Unless of course the conspiracy remains in full effect.

Anyway once again I am reminded of the Duke lacrosse rape case, wherein wealthy assholes from an elite school hired a stripper for a frat party, said stripper accused them of assault, everyone judged the college kids guilty, and then they were exonerated when the stripper's story fell apart. But not before they were branded bad for life.

the maid's story hasn't "fallen apart," though

I have to say I feel really sickened by the media coverage of this today, esp. by Irish / UK media. Everything being said about the alleged rape victim is so far outside the bounds of what would be allowed if the case was in this jurisdiction - particularly in a sex offence trial.

I guess, in a way, it's the quid pro quo for the whole business of parading him before the cameras in cuffs, which I must admit enjoying at the time - I remember thinking "a rich man in handcuffs on tv, it couldn't happen here!". Although calling it a quid pro quo disregards the presumably vast imbalance between his media/briefing/lawyering team and hers.

xp max otm

I'm pretty sickened too, but don't think he'll be 'rehabilitated' because of all the wealthy and connected white women who have also alleged he's a perverted hosebeast who doesn't process the word 'no'. His second wife's goddaughter, for example. People around the maid may be telling her all about settling out of court and giving her bad advice, and she may be in a relationship with someone suspected of crimes, but none of those things mean it's OK to force sex on her in a hotel room she's there to clean.

Well, yeah. But again, it's really odd that it was the prosecution than cried uncle in this, and not the defense.

"cried uncle"...?

how much of the case against is built up on dna etc evidence, how much is her testimony?

If it's mainly the latter then the question of her crdibility is going to have a bearing on the prosecution's case.

Suzy, of course it's not ok to have forced her to have sex, but whether or not that's what happened is still in question, tbf?

I was working with a French guy at the time this broke and he said he was bothered by how fast our media 'convicts' someone -- at the time I thought "Oh come on, this guy obviously did it," but now I'm realizing how much that view was shaped by the way the media subtly pushed that view. Still find it very possible that he did in fact rape the maid, of course.

@DougSaunders Doug Saunders
If #DSK goes from "possible rapist" to "man wronged by the Americans" overnight, he will be political gold in France.

(I don't actually believe this to the extreme of saying it is "gold" btw)

Disgusting, really - what about the women in France who also allege misconduct? This man is a prize shit. I hope the French don't try to make gold out of him!

yeah he is not 'clean slate' material if this does collapse

So, if you've ever been caught lying about anything before, you can't be raped?

clearly not what anyone is saying either, tbf.

No, but she lied once -> she never tells the truth seems to be the easy logic in most (admittedly simple belgian) papers.

yeah, but depending on the reliance on her testimony as a factor, it's still something prosecution know could really destroy the case if it's just his word against hers.

As it stands, nothing in the public arena about any of this has been without media slant so far, he was pretty much tried on his reputation in the day or two following the arrest- forensically attacking her credibility will likely make up a large part of his defence.

the "credibility" defence is so fucked-up - as though women who have dubious associates or have even committed past crimes can't get raped?

credibility matters when you're ultimately basing something on testimony. (but his credibility is even worse.)

Yeah, but he's white and rich too.

i know credibility matters, duh, i just think it's an illogical way of assessing any individual's testimony

rich white guys never have ulterior motives for anything

I have to say I feel really sickened by the media coverage of this today, esp. by Irish / UK media. Everything being said about the alleged rape victim is so far outside the bounds of what would be allowed if the case was in this jurisdiction - particularly in a sex offence trial.

we have much stricter laws on contempt of court than in the USA, where free speech trumps the right to a fair trial.

I think this depends to an extent on how contradictory her own account is - if it is THEN the case could credibly collapse. If it's "OMG she lied about somethign else 2yrs ago" then that's outrageous obviously, but we don't really know what's going on.

I'm no legal expert but surely "what about those other women in France" isn't actually taken into account they're pressing charges?

It's not - but I referenced them to refute the idea that he might be able to re-enter French politics.

curious to hear exactly what was said in this phone conversation

He's still got to go to court - the socialists would have to be desperate to resort to someone with that much smoke around them in any case.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/01/nyregion/20110701-Strauss-Kahn-letter.html?ref=nyregion

that's the letter the DA's office sent to the defense attorneys

Reading between the lines, it seems like the maid's partner is a wrong'un - but that doesn't mean it's OK to assault her. There must have been some conversation between them about a civil case, but isn't she entitled to a private conversation with her partner, even if he is in jail?

no i dont think so

Ah, the letter discloses that the objection is nothing to do with her partner - she's undermined herself in other ways.

isn't she entitled to a private conversation with her partner, even if he is in jail?

I think pretty much every call into and out of a prison is recorded

Ah, the letter discloses that the objection is nothing to do with her partner - she's undermined herself in other ways.

the part that seems to have the most direct bearing on the case is that she lied to the grand jury about what she did after the assault

So she admits making up part of her testimony and now says she returned to his suite after the alledged assault and after cleaning another room? No matter what you think of DSK you can see the problem for the prosecution.

Or what dmr just said.

I like how they call hims DSk like he all that

and yeah the stuff about the boyfriend only seems to come into the paragraph at the end that says "and also she misrepresented some other stuff" although someone obv. took it on themself to leak the details to the press

xposts

yeah the lying to the grand jury about the sequence of events is a problem

guess this case is dead

I wonder if he'll want his old job back - make way, biotch, I'm le coming bacque!

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/07/dominique-strauss-kahn-court-live-blog/39509/

scroll down to 12:08-12:00 for some (graphic) quotes from her lawyer, who's saying some harsh stuff about Cy Vance trying to back away from the case.

The only defense Dominique Strauss Kahn has is that this sexual encounter was consensual. That’s a lie. Here are the facts:

First, when the victim walked into that suite, she did so for one reason, and that was to clean that suite. She was told no one was inside that room and she went in believing no one was inside that room. Then Strauss-Kahn came running out of one of those rooms naked towards her. He grabbed her breasts first and started to attack her. He then grabbed her vagina with so much force that he hurt her. With so much force that he bruised her vagina. When she went to the hospital that day, the nurses saw the bruises on her vagina that were caused by Dominique Strauss-Kahn’s hand…

The next thing that will prove the defense is a lie, is that when Dominique Strauss-Kahn threw her to the floor, he tore a ligament in her shoulder. That is a medical fact. She may now need surgery for her shoulder. She has been telling prosecutors from day one, my shoulder hurts… [says a doctor confirmed torn ligament]…

The third point is that Dominique Strauss-Kahn ripped her stockings. There are holes and rips in her stockings, and the DA knows that. After he finished, she got up and started to run for that door, and started spitting Dominique Strauss-Kahn’s semen out of her mouth. It’s DNA evidence. She spit his semen on the wall, she spit it on the floor, and guess what, as soon as her supervisor came to the floor, she saw that… Detectives from the NYPD, they saw that.

All of these statements that have been leaked by the DA, that she was involved in drugs and so forth, are a lie. We believe [Manhattan District Attorney] Cy Vance does not want to prosecute this case because he is afraid he will lose, like he lost the case against the two police officers accused of rape, like he lost the case against the Deutsche Bank employees in the fire near Ground Zero.

When I brought this information to their [the District Attorney’s office] attention, I let them meet with my client while I was away... I checked in with them on that second day and found something very disturbing. I checked with the victim and her 15-year-old daughter… the daughter told me they were mistreating her mother in the Manhattan District Attorney’s office.

When I got back to New York City I spoke with the victim and her daughter. Both told me with tears in their eyes that the prosecutors had screamed and yelled at her. The daughter was outside a door while they talked to her mother and all she could hear was the prosecutors screaming and yelling at her mother, until there was a break, when they left, to talk to me [on the phone]. I told them not to continue the interview…

What that daughter told me was that when the prosecutors walked back into the office, they screamed at her mother, "get out, get out, get out of here."

They're not dropping the charges

not really clear to me what the DA's office hoped to gain by leaking this stuff

rather have it out and known now than during the trial, kind of thing?

prob just mentally preparing the public for dropping the case

or losing it, either way

srsly doubt this is ging to trial

"the strauss-kahn affair" would make a great ludlum novel imo

Strauss-Kahn's longtime Socialist ally Claude Bartolone, a member of the French parliament, said on French radio this morning, “There is only one thing that makes me happy, apart from this hope reappearing in the life of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Anne Sinclair and their family: it's the look that must be on Sarkozy's face today and the faces of all of the right-wingers who wanted with this story to eliminate the Socialist Party on a moral level.”

In fact, Socialists appearing on early morning radio and television as the news broke seemed to be clicking their heels. “It's a great joy,” the Socialist Jean-Marie Le Guen told France Info radio. “All of those who dragged him through the mud... today maybe see things a bit differently.” Le Guen added, “All those who speculated on his political disappearance will soon have to deal with a person free in his movements, who will be able to look the French people in the eye and whose voice will be very important in the circumstances our country is in.”

Socialists really covering themselves in glory with this rationale.

Will say, this asshat has no right smiling his way out of court, considering there is little doubt remaining that something weird went down. If I were this guy's wife, I'd be banishing him to sleep on his very expensive, comfortable summer home couch for a while.

It's France--she's got her man on the side.

forget it Josh, it's francetown

Reading between the lines, it seems like the maid's partner is a wrong'un - but that doesn't mean it's OK to assault her.

pretty sure there's something in US legal code stating that any victim of sexual assault must be Jesus Christ in all her personal dealings or else the assailant is blameless

all the stuff about lying to obtain political asylum seems completely irrelevant imho

one could see how lying previously abt rape might introduce a reasonable doubt

and then the profit motive via the call to prison makes the case v hard to try

in my own mind where the burden of proof is somewhat less than beyond a reasonable doubt im thinking yeah he probably did it regardless of these fairly minor transgressions on her part, however

eh "reasonable doubt" in this society in rape cases is generally "any stray thread no matter how ridiculous that might be grasped in order to exonerate the accuser if he's white" imhoo*

*in my hyperreactionary overemotional-about-this-kinda-thing opinon

obvs there are all sorts of strange and awful sexist etc social dynamics at play, but its also like v hard for obvious reasons to try cases that hinge on a he said/she said scenario, once ulterior motives and patterns of past deceptive behavior can be introduced it becomes difficult for any jury to not have doubts

and from another pov i have to say that a wider problem w/our legal system isnt that rich people are in a position via hiring good lawyers to demand this sort of meticulous treatment of their cases, its that everyone isnt privy to that same representation, id be perfectly happy w/a system where its all around harder to convict people and send them to jail, those resources just need to be much more fairly distributed than they are now

frankly, it's irresponsible to bring up the general inequities and biases of the system as though they somehow balance out or even overwhelm the (apparently massive) problems in the prosecution's case in this specific instance. these are unrelated things. it's true that defenses against accusations of rape are often built around shameful attempts to undermine the credibility of the accuser. That does not mean, however, that all accusers/accusations are equally credible, nor does it mean that all attempts to undermine the credibility of an accuser are equally shameful.

in this particular case ― about which we really know next to nothing, remember ― it seems at the moment that there might be legitimate reason to doubt, or at least to question, the accuser's testimony.

all the stuff about lying to obtain political asylum seems completely irrelevant imho

― a man is only a guy (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, July 1, 2011 8:45 PM (26 minutes ago) Bookmark

"ok she lied about rape before, but that time she had a really good reason!"

As if it wasn't complicated enough:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewmcfbrown/100094855/dominique-strauss-kahn-what-this-case-tells-us-about-american-europhobia/

I mean her prior fabrication of a rape seems arguably as "relevant" as an unproven allegation of a 9-year-old prior sexual assault or his general reputation for womanizing or the fact that he was a "rich old white man" (a socialist politician, fwiw, not Donald Trump). Not that I can't sympathize with the motivation of fabricating a story in order to immigrate. But then there's also a possible link to what sounds like maybe organized crime? I mean her boyfriend doesn't sound like some corner boy -- 400 lbs of marijuana and money laundering. Point being, yes, of course a woman should not be raped because she has a shady past. But neither should a man be presumed a rapist because of a womanizing past or general feelings about class and gender inequities.

As if it wasn't complicated enough...

don't think that telegraph editorial adds anything to what we've read previously, other than the risible suggestion that the african maid's testimony was somehow a product of american "europhobia"

I mean her prior fabrication of a rape seems arguably as "relevant" as an unproven allegation of a 9-year-old prior sexual assault or his general reputation for womanizing

this is true, ie in a court of law they're both pretty irrelevant imho

But neither should a man be presumed a rapist because of a womanizing past or general feelings about class and gender inequities

seems like there's some pretty clear forensic evidence, as alluded to upthread

Andrew M Brown is a writer with an interest in mental health and the influence of addiction on culture.

Andrew "Mental" Brown

in this particular case ― about which we really know next to nothing, remember ― it seems at the moment that there might be legitimate reason to doubt, or at least to question, the accuser's testimony

because men say this in every case of rape, again & again, I choose to err on the side of the accuser, always. there is no rape case in which disinterested parties by the dozens won't find plenty of "legitimate reason" to doubt a woman's word. there are a number of ways to respond to the finding of "discrepancies" within an accuser's case; one is to be extremely suspicious of how energetic & motivated the case to find such "discrepancies" almost always is, and to question where the motivation for that effort comes from. (It comes from virulently woman-hating society & its superstructures imo, everybody already knows I think this.) there isn't a single rape case that makes it to the newswires that won't find people from the courtroom to the reporter to the nameless commenters on threads finding fault with the accuser & her accusation.

it seems at the moment that there might be legitimate reason to doubt, or at least to question, the accuser's testimony

No there isn't. We've known from the start (because all jury cases are like this) it would turn into a mudslinging match to undermine the other side's credibility.

All of that doesn't matter in the slightest (other than influencing the jury) - all I want to know is WHY someone could possibly go to the police with a story like this if it wasn't true. Worst money making scheme ever, no? Even IF she has lied about everything in her whole life ever, WHY would anyone call the cops and invent a rape story about a guy they don't even know? Maybe I'm too much of a fact fan - they don't seem to matter too much during court cases, unfortunately.

Yes, I know false rape accusations do exist, but I really can't imagine a maid doing this to a random guest at her employer's hotel.

I think it would only make sense if she knew who he was, e.g. a setup. Admittedly, an outside possibility.

We've known from the start (because all jury cases are like this) it would turn into a mudslinging match to undermine the other side's credibility.
― StanM, Friday, July 1, 2011 9:54 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

Oh, did we know from the start that the prosecution would inform the defense that they had discovered the alleged victim had lied multiple times about being raped? How exactly does that hurt the "other side's" credibility?

Former Socialist Culture Minister Jack Lang, who had been criticized for his unwavering support of Strauss-Kahn, said he was "happy" because his belief in the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" had been confirmed.

"He could still play a major role in France, without being a candidate. This would give (us) an extra chance for victory," Lang said.

Philippe Goulliaud of Le Figaro newspaper said the Socialist Party was now in a difficult position.

"Already DSK supporters had turned the page and decided things had been settled. Now the Strauss-Kahnians are saying his return is possible," he said.

"It is difficult to know if it's possible or to know what DSK wants. Having seen images of this man tied and handcuffed he might be like the Count of Monte Cristo and want to have revenge on those who have sullied his name."

*rmde*

ugh the French

all I want to know is WHY someone could possibly go to the police with a story like this if it wasn't true.

I have no idea, but it's hardly unknown for people to make stuff up.

The woman went to the hospital with vaginal injuries and torn ligaments. Did a bunch of doctors make that up?

ffs I'm not saying she made anything up! Stan was wondering why anyone would make stuff up, there are plenty of cases in ALL spheres of existence where people have flat out lied for reasons which are not easily understandable.

Does info about the injuries have a source besides her personal lawyer?

I doubt he's making up medical records info, but I suppose its possible

he's definitely not making up the semen/NYPD/DNA thing, that was reported independently

Sure, but the DNA doesn't establish anything if he's claiming consent.

I suppose not... otoh who doesn't spit semen all over the floor and walls after a good blowjob amirite (who did she think was gonna clean THAT up lol)

im sure a jury would be v convinced by that argument

if it was a set-up, and i have no view on that yet, you have to ask on whose behalf. if it's just her and her shady boyfriend trying to shake down of the first rich white guy they come across... what a weird story this will turn out to have been. feels unlikely, but then we're in a world where people accept the idea of a "socialist imf chief" -- anything is possible.

pretty sure this was not the first rich white guy this woman ever saw at this hotel

exactly. but she

lost train of thought

there is no rape case in which disinterested parties by the dozens won't find plenty of "legitimate reason" to doubt a woman's word. there are a number of ways to respond to the finding of "discrepancies" within an accuser's case; one is to be extremely suspicious of how energetic & motivated the case to find such "discrepancies" almost always is, and to question where the motivation for that effort comes from. (It comes from virulently woman-hating society & its superstructures imo, everybody already knows I think this.) there isn't a single rape case that makes it to the newswires that won't find people from the courtroom to the reporter to the nameless commenters on threads finding fault with the accuser & her accusation.

― love in a grain elevator (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, July 1, 2011 2:31 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

okay, but as a disinterested party, i reserve the right to distinguish between valid and bogus attempts to undermine an accuser's testimony. that's why i refuse to simply/ideologically/always side with the alleged victim. i don't automatically defer to either side (though i do have to admit that i'm slightly more likely to believe the accuser than the accused when it comes to rape allegations). i try to weigh the reasonable, credible, real evidence carefully, and to avoid coming to unwarranted conclusions. most of the time, i come to no conclusion at all, and i'm fine with that. i don't have to.

what you're talking about is in no way unique to rape cases, though the mechanisms may be. in every court case, both parties are extremely motivated to find discrepancies in and undermine the credibility of the opposition's testimony. that's in large part how our criminal justice system works. and the tendency of sideline kibitzers to find fault and question motives is present in every high-profile case. i don't deny the existence of a woman-hating society and its superstructures, but surely that can't be the only lens through which we view cases like this? it's a useful critical angle, but only one of many that might add up to a sensible, comprehensive view of the situation.

we don't have to break this down according to some lame "either he raped her, or she made the whole thing up" dichotomy. i think it's better to stick with the idea that our understanding of secondhand events is like a ship emerging from a fog. we see what looks like a prow, a mast, some rigging, and we decide that it must be this ship, or that one. but we really don't know. we've really just seen a few vague shadows. if the fog clears and we suddenly see a ship entire, then we can say what it is or isn't. and if the fog thickens and the thing seems to disappear, then who's to say it was ever a ship in the first place?

that's what "the truth" is like in situations like this: a thing that seems to appear and disappear before our eyes. it solidifies in our understanding based on the credence we give to what we've heard and on our ability to imagine realities congruent with what others say, but it just as quickly wavers and fades away when those stories fall apart or our imaginations fail. point is, we don't have to have to imagine or prove a different story in order to doubt the one we've been told by either party. it's not like one ship has to be replaced with another. sometimes there is no ship, just the movement of the fog.

yeah I disagree with pretty much everything you're saying. I think the cold reality of how men treat women, especially men with power, is pretty well established. I don't think the truth is an indeterminate thing emerging gradually from the fog. I think this guy raped a maid because he doesn't consider her a human being but a piece of property for guys like him to make use of, and that everything we hear against her is going to be the result of people who stand to benefit from the system remaining as it is marshaling millennia worth of stacked decks to cast doubt & shame on the wronged party, and to ake the question not "did this guy rape this woman?" (the only question of importance here) but "what does she stand to benefit from the charges" et nauseating tabloid show cetera. which, like. if you show up and say "I got robbed" the last shit I'm gonna say to you is "wait...I never saw that stuff you're saying is missing...and I know people who say they've been to your house and they didn't see any jewelry in any drawers" etc. I believe you if you say you were robbed. and if people have been trying for several thousand years to keep you from being able to exercise agency in this world, then I'm going to believe you when you say "shortly you'll be hearing about how there's more to this story than meets the eye, but that's because people really don't wanna let me get justice."

What did the Duke Lacrosse case accuser stand to gain?

[ I think this guy raped a maid because he doesn't consider her a human being]

This to me gets at an issue perhaps discussed above that transcends traditional notions of power. If this scenario were true, then this dude is a clinical psychopath. But I don't believe a clinical psychopath, with all the attendant compulsions (like, say, bursting out of the bathroom and immediately assaulting the maid) could rise to his station and not get caught until late in this stage, powerful or not. Even in France.

I do agree with aero that the burden placed on accusers is often terribly high, especially given what's at stake. And I also agree that women making this shit up happens far more often in movies and books than it does in real life. But it does happen. Then again, rape happens far, far more often than people making it up, so there's that, too. Regardless, I hope this goes to trial in some way, shape or form so that we get an idea of what actually happened, both from his view (as consensual) and from her view (as rape), neither of which makes much sense given the limited (and perhaps dubious) information we have to work with.

Re: clinical psychopaths reaching high stations, one of the top officers in the Canadian air force (not quite DSK's stature but a bigshot nonetheless) until last year was also a particularly gruesome serial rapist/killer.

BTW, I would think there's a decent chance of her filing a civil suit if she feels she has a case, and the burden of proof would be a little lower there.

I think the cold reality of how men treat women, especially men with power, is pretty well established. I don't think the truth is an indeterminate thing emerging gradually from the fog. I think this guy raped a maid because he doesn't consider her a human being but a piece of property for guys like him to make use of, and that everything we hear against her is going to be the result of people who stand to benefit from the system remaining as it is marshaling millennia worth of stacked decks to cast doubt & shame on the wronged party, and to ake the question not "did this guy rape this woman?" (the only question of importance here) but "what does she stand to benefit from the charges" et nauseating tabloid show cetera. which, like. if you show up and say "I got robbed" the last shit I'm gonna say to you is "wait...I never saw that stuff you're saying is missing...and I know people who say they've been to your house and they didn't see any jewelry in any drawers" etc. I believe you if you say you were robbed.

uh, i agree with you. we disagree from the ground up, or very close to it. i do agree that the reality of how men often treat women is very well established, in general. that general rule of thumb tells us nothing about any specific case, however. whether or not you happen to be right about DSK, you know nothing about what happened here. such ignorance is all to often the blank canvas upon which we write the counsel of our prejudices.

here's a better version of your robbery example: a close friend of yours comes to you and says that another equally close friend of yours has robbed him/her. there is no evidence of robbery or loss, and your other friend insists that he/she has stolen nothing. who do you believe? does the gender or race of the individuals in question sway you one way or the other? i sure hope not...

^ that to aero, i mean, i admire your passion and commitment, but...

everything we hear against her is going to be the result of people who stand to benefit from the system remaining as it is marshaling millennia worth of stacked decks to cast doubt & shame on the wronged party
― love in a grain elevator (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, July 2, 2011 12:28 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

She lied to the prosecution. She admitted lying to the prosecution. The fact that we're hearing this is not the result of a stacked deck, it's a result of her decision to lie.

hard to see why cyrus vance would be taking a dive here, want to hear more from the victim's lawyer re: what exactly went down with the da's and her

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/nyregion/one-revelation-after-another-undercut-strauss-kahn-accusers-credibility.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&seid=auto&smid=tw-nytimes

Twenty-eight hours after a housekeeper at the Sofitel New York said she was sexually assaulted by Dominique Strauss-Kahn, she spoke by phone to a boyfriend in an immigration jail in Arizona.

Investigators with the Manhattan district attorney’s office learned the call had been recorded and had it translated from a “unique dialect of Fulani,” a language from the woman’s native country, Guinea, according to a well-placed law enforcement official.

When the conversation was translated — a job completed only this Wednesday — investigators were alarmed: “She says words to the effect of, ‘Don’t worry, this guy has a lot of money. I know what I’m doing,’ ” the official said.

Which, tbf, also makes me wonder, could she have been raped AND decided to be opportunistic about it?

'I know what I’m doing'

gdamn this is a sorry affair

Which, tbf, also makes me wonder, could she have been raped AND decided to be opportunistic about it?

― mississippi delta law grad (Hurting 2), Friday, July 1, 2011 8:21 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark

certainement! but (trembling in fear of aero's condemnation) that kind of opportunism will tend to reduce the credibility of your version of events.

which in turn reveals a sad disparity that has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with class/wealth: it's perfectly sensible and perhaps even ethically defensible for the very poor to be economically "opportunistic," perhaps especially in their dealings with the rich. the relatively desperate nature of their circumstances indirectly reduces their credibility. we see this here in the way that the alleged victim is taken to task for having associated with criminals, something that isn't so terribly uncommon on the fringes of society, where the impoverished struggle to survive.

the rich, meanwhile, having nothing to gain from this kind of economic opportunism, at least when dealing w the poor, and are therefore often seen as more credible. the relatively comfortable nature of their circumstances indirectly enhances their credibility: it's likely that they haven't ever had to lie, cheat or steal simply to survive.

... not that they don't lie, cheat and steal, anyway. you know, for the sport.

I don't think it can be true that we live in a 'woman-hating society'.

Around half the members of society are women. They can't all hate each other.

And I don't think most men hate women either. Why would they?

Maybe 'society' here is meant to mean something other than individuals' feelings. Like pay differentials. But they don't reflect 'hate' - they just demonstrate continuing inequality.

All this is separate from the case - where as Contenderizer says, we don't know what happened. Quite possibly he did do it and deserves jail.

Tbh, don't know how I feel about an implicating phone conversation translated from a "unique dialect of Fulani." Surely there's room for misinterpretation?

And xpost The military (Canadian or otherwise) is an explicit system of power, with literal ranks and a well-established code of silence. I can totally see all sorts of shit overlooked, covered-up or generally missed in that mess of mislaid allegiances and jockeying for advancement. Members of the career military are also nearly completely insulated from society at large, living in the ultimate gated communities. DSK, on the other hand, was a very public figure. Which does not put him above rape, but I would think rules him out as pathological.

It's also possible here this woman has lived such a hard life, and experienced many of the alleged abuses prosecutors now doubt, and was taken advantage of by this guy. There's this creepy exchange in the Times piece: "After the encounter with Mr. Strauss-Kahn, she asked her supervisor at Sofitel, “Can any guest at the hotel do anything they want with us?” her lawyer, Kenneth P. Thompson, said during a sidewalk press conference on Friday defending her."

“Can any guest at the hotel do anything they want with us?” I wonder what kind of scarred mindset would lead someone to even ask a question like that. Certainly the kind of mindset that implies she may or may not know when she's being taken advantage of, sexually or otherwise. It's a shame, because her possible damaged condition, while sympathetic, simultaneously makes her a bad witness from a strictly legal vantage.

hard to see why cyrus vance would be taking a dive here, want to hear more from the victim's lawyer re: what exactly went down with the da's and her

― how many sb'ings do you have? (buzza), Friday, July 1, 2011 11:12 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

vance probably doesnt want to lose two high-profile "sure thing" rape cases in a row! i mean i sort of wonder how this would play out if the rape cop trial hadnt panned out so miserably--obviously theyd still have to acknowledge that she lied, the DA's office might not drop her quite so abruptly.

also i wonder if theres been a lot of political pressure for him to ease up.

I don't think it can be true that we live in a 'woman-hating society'.

Around half the members of society are women. They can't all hate each other.

ok i'm sorry to even dignify this with a reaction but WTF is this ostrich logic

haha i missed that. how can i be sexist?? i love women!!

imo, sexism clearly does not always (or often) rise to the intense level denoted by "hatred", so conflating the two as synonyms is either a misunderstanding of people and their motives, or else is a purely rhetorical sleight of hand.

I'm pretty sure pinefox would find little to disgree with in the proposition that we live in a sexist society. I know I would not. But "woman-hating" is ott in terms of accuracy.

except he's arguing that our society cannot hate women because ~50% of society is comprised of women. by that measure it would be impossible for any society to hate women. idiotic.

idk man maths dont lie

#math

not sure a society can "hate" exactly. or in this case indiscriminately.

I'd think twice before committing to the idea that pinefox is an idiot, or thinks in such simplistic terms as elmo suggests.

I think he made the mistake of thinking that "woman-hating society" was so obviously (to his mind) an overstatement, that a more subtle and complete argument to point this out wasn't required, so he tossed in the first incontrovertible fact that popped into his head that tended to support his view.

still, it was more gratifying than i expected to sb him.

Jeez. Kids these days.

I kind of don't think that pinefox post is even worth wasting debate on.

xposts to max

yeah, vance really needed to get a slamdunk with this one (from the standpoint of his rep) so why he is backing away from it makes no sense unless the accuser is so obviously a liability (although i guess good old incompetence on the part of the DA's assigned to the case could explain it too)

i don't know who would be applying political pressure for him to drop it??

feel like this case wouldve been dropped even if the accused wasnt super powerful

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/nyregion/collapsing-strauss-kahn-case-adds-to-doubts-on-manhattan-prosecutor.html

aside: kind of blows my mind that morgenthau is 91

'Some of the most pointed complaints about Mr. Vance are emanating from the district attorney’s office itself, according to numerous interviews with prosecutors and other officials. They spoke on the condition that their names not be used, saying they feared reprisals.

Several said they worried that cases were often pursued with an excessive focus on whether they would generate publicity. Some said Mr. Vance had taken away the discretion of midlevel prosecutors, sometimes to the detriment of cases.'

by this reading the d.a. was in fact head hunting

Some people in the office said that decision hurt the office’s handling of the case because those prosecutors were not as familiar with the types of problems that sex crimes prosecutors routinely face: a victim with a troubled background; a he-said, she-said story.

With an experienced sex crimes prosecutor, an official in the office said, “some of these very things that have come up, or even some things that might have come up during deeper examination by people who were experienced in this, might have come up faster.”

^^^ sounds like my incompetence theory may have some validity

yeah, vance really needed to get a slamdunk with this one (from the standpoint of his rep) so why he is backing away from it makes no sense unless the accuser is so obviously a liability (although i guess good old incompetence on the part of the DA's assigned to the case could explain it too)

i don't know who would be applying political pressure for him to drop it??

― how many sb'ings do you have? (buzza), Saturday, July 2, 2011 1:36 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

oh yeah i mean i think based on what's coming out shes a trial liability, and vance is trying to cut his losses as quickly and forcefully as possible--but yeah seems like good old-fashioned incompetence is in play here too

cool meal bro http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/07/02/2011-07-02_dsk_dines_dines_on_700_worth_of_wine_and_truffles_at_celebration_dinner_followin.html

DSK dines on $700 worth of wine and truffles at celebration dinner following release from bail, rapes waitress

http://www.lawyer-directory.net/lawyer/Buzza-E--Stevens-Point-law122662.htm

DSK case crumbles

Who do you think is really at fault?

Dominique Strauss-Kahn

The Bronx chambermaid

The NYPD

All of the above

No one

lol @ Vance/DA's Office not being an option

http://www.firstlawgroup.com/buzza.html

When he’s not in the office, you are likely to find him on the waters or in the woods of northern Wisconsin and Minnesota. He is an avid paddler, hiker and landscape photographer.

surprised no ones posted the NYP's article today, which cites an anonymous defense-backed source who implies that the maid is a prostitute to come up with this beaut of a cover:

http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2011/07/02/covers/front070211.jpg

felix is enjoy it http://felixsalmon.tumblr.com/post/7165220245/the-dsk-raped-a-prostitute-theory

i left a heated "reply" to that fyi

man two of the blogging elite slugging it out on their unofficial tumblrs *readies popcorn*

imo u should start beef w/felix salmon, itd be good for yr klout

Anyone who employs the phrase "crying rape" should be punched in throat imho.

playing the 'rape card'

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wYv6zDcanLY/SHBQNBrZl_I/AAAAAAAAAC8/OmMiViw3Oio/s400/CryRape-1.JPG

whaaaaaa

that comes from a really shitty blog about the "male victims" of false rape reports, don't read unless you want to get angry

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/

Lying is extremely common in every part of life. However, for a variety of reasons, lying about rape is one hell of a lot less common than rape itself.

naw lying abt rape is p common 'i did not rape her'

Lying about rape is like vomiting architecture.

nice tweet icey ; )

RT ;)

#FF

“The universal language of prostitutes and johns” <--- wtf is this?

Hey, Joe! You like ficky-ficky?

What I meant to say was, that's a pretty wtf quote you found there.

nypost doubles down on calling the accuser a prostitute

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/she_laid_low_as_da_paid_for_digs_8Udq6nhQaHaC4KOOfkctpI?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/hotel_maid_got_stiffed_by_dom_4sML8y67I7vcfXEBbTo2UM?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

the universal language of prostitutes and johns

Is there a Rosetta Stone tape for that?

fucking hell @ the comments on that

Another fake, phony and fraud. Not only should we stop illegal immigration that lets criminals and low llife's we should tighten up or legal immigration policies to prevent these hustler's into our country. I hope INS goes after her and send her back to the sewer she came from!

Moos lims are taught to lie to dhimmi's (you & me) from birth. The whole "religion" is a fraud.

The accusers manipulation and lies have not only destroyed a man's reputation, but far worse...SHE HAS CHANGED THE FUTURE OF ENTIRE NATION/WORLD. The layers of destruction that this monster has created go so far past this one man and his family. As once the front runner to be the next French president; she has eliminated any political change and has robbed millions from DSK's vision, prudent fiscal policy and positive social change. The blood on this woman's hands cannot be measured..

SECRET LIFE: The infamous Sofitel maid/hooker, her identity protected by a sheet, is guided by cops last month.

Stay classy NY Post.

She was once the front-runner to be the next French president?

pretty fucking gross, btw, that sources from the "prosecution" are calling the woman a hooker too (anonymously, of course!)

even if she's a hooker?

no, if shes a hooker its totally okay for prosecution sources to leak details about her to tabloids anonymously

ah so any and all leaks are "gross?"

...

idrg the point youre making

I don't think a woman is a "hooker" just because she's ever accepted any kind of remuneration for sex. Under desperate circumstances, people will do things to survive/get by that they would normally find demeaning or undesirable. If you take sex out of it, think about what kind of dirty, miserable thing you would do under duress, if you/yr family were starving, or being threatened with violence unless you complied. That wouldn't make you a latrine-digger or a water-carrier or something unless you took the label for yourself.

I'm not closely following the sources on this woman's story because it depresses me and I don't think the violence or coercion or whatever that will undoubtedly be found in her background are going to be surprising. But the assignment of available woman-status because someone has done what was necessary to survive is gross and grossly sexist.

I mean aren't we past the point where information like her being a hooker is unfair blame the victim information? She's known to lie about rape, she talked about squeezing money out of DSK with a known drug dealer, she lied to the DA about what she did after the incident. I think at this point her being a hooker is relevant information.

i.e. makes the DNA evidence a lot less indictable.

basically yesterday the post had 1 anonymous source linked to the defense who implied she is a hooker that was--get this--pimped out by her union

today the post has another anonymous source, this one a "prosecution source" (da's office? nypd? who knows?) who claims she has been servicing clients while under the care of the DA

the times hasnt touched the hooker story w/ a ten foot pole. the nydn gets two sources to deny it, one an on-the-record union source disputing the post's claims, the other a source "close to the case" who could maybe be the woman's lawyer

okay bro whatever

i think the best way to release that totally relevant information is via an anonymous source, definitely, it sends a great message to victims of sexual assault everywhere, "you will have the DA's office behind you 100%, except we might tell the post you are a whore"

Otoh, is is ok for the defence lawyer to say at a press conference - "she has bruises on her vagina caused by DSK's hands" which is surely far from proved?

I mean the whole way both sides is handling this seems fucked up. What possible chance of a non-prejudicial trial, for either side, now?

Also who the heck is Andrea Peyser? Because she's not helping anyone

i think the best way to release that totally relevant information is via an anonymous source, definitely, it sends a great message to victims of sexual assault everywhere, "you will have the DA's office behind you 100%, except we might tell the post you are a whore"

― ☂ (max), Sunday, July 3, 2011 2:34 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark

you're presuming that the DA's office approved the leak.

Also who the heck is Andrea Peyser?

awful NY Post columnist who I like to pretend doesn't exist

Yeah fuck the NYPost for reporting the hooker thing based on an anonymous "insider" in any case.

The NYT reported the $100,000 in bank deposits and five cell phones but didn't speculate on the reasons for those things.

matt armstrong i still dont know what point youre making? that its okay for nypd/DAs office representatives to anonymously call her a prostitute because "shes known to lie about rape"?

Otoh, is is ok for the defence lawyer to say at a press conference - "she has bruises on her vagina caused by DSK's hands" which is surely far from proved?

i think you mean the prosecution--but the idea here is that the DA is saying this publicly, and putting the weight of his office and his office's credibility (lol) behind it. w/ an anonymous source theres no reprisal if the source is lying--it allows for ppl to smear the woman without any fear of recrimination

i mean im with hurting i think the NYP is the "real" villain here, but fuck a police department/DA's office that cant keep its mouth closed w/r/t to rape accusers.

Yeah, sorry, of course, the prosecution.

Which leads me to A Serious Question because I know little about US law - does all this kind of thing (people seemingly saying anything they like and it getting printed or broadcast) all come under 'Freedom of Speech' or are there any limitations on what you can say due to there being (the increasingly distant) prospect of a trial?

It could have been a disgruntled ADA who was upset with the case or with Vance in general. It also could have just been some low level employee who is full of shit and the NYPost are running with it -- I wouldn't put much past them.

Which leads me to A Serious Question because I know little about US law - does all this kind of thing (people seemingly saying anything they like and it getting printed or broadcast) all come under 'Freedom of Speech' or are there any limitations on what you can say due to there being (the increasingly distant) prospect of a trial?

― that was the last arrow in my quiver of whimsy (Ned Trifle II), Sunday, July 3, 2011 11:12 AM Bookmark

There are professional rules about what an attorney can say leading into a trial but, tbh I don't remember very much about them. There's also such a thing as defamation. Newspapers are given very wide leeway, especially when reporting things others say. At the same time, calling a woman a prostitute falls into a category of speech that is presumed to be harmful so it's easier to prove defamation with statements like that. I don't remember the standard offhand but I'm guessing that if she were to sue them she'd have to show that they were reckless in their publication of the statement (e.g. should have known that the source was of questionable reliability).

im mostly criticizing the "assistant prosecutor" who says "i cant say with 100% certainty that its not true" or whatever. i mean the first source could really be anyone talking shit--but an assistant prosecutor whos willing to lend even the vaguest kind of credence to those rumors is... irresponsible at best

who knows! maybe she is a prostitute. i would be more willing to believe it if any of the other nyc papers were picking up on that story, or if the post had better or more sources. as it is it just sounds like people with a grudge trying to lessen the womans credibility further.

I hope the NYP know what they're doing, because all of this is blindly copied and chinese whispered into foreign tabloids and the stupid commenters there only see what they wanted to see from the beginning because it confirms their ridiculous prejudices : black woman = lying whore.

Belgian newspaper/tabloid sites don't even automatically remove racist crap like that anymore, only after numerous complaints (but then dozens of other invertebrates have gloated that they had known all along and bla bla bla).

Sigh

matt armstrong i still dont know what point youre making? that its okay for nypd/DAs office representatives to anonymously call her a prostitute because "shes known to lie about rape"?

― ☂ (max), Sunday, July 3, 2011 3:08 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark

If it's true, it's relevant. the anonymity doesn't really bother me one way or the other.

If it's not true then obviously it's gross and evil.

the main reason it would be relevant is that it's another thing she's lying about, yes.

'"I can't say with 100 percent certainty that it's not true," a senior prosecutor said about whether the woman was turning tricks while at the hotel.'

oh man the contortions the post mustve gone through to get this confirmation, i bet whoever gave that quote is kicking themselves right now

ugh matt

RIP Mr. Jay Batman, he could have helped us understand the broader anarcho-misogynist context here

the anonymity doesn't really bother me one way or the other.

you dont see, at all, why this is problematic

It doesn't bother me any more or less than if they'd released the information officially. Either way you're putting the information out there and we have to judge whether that release is proper or not.

like wouldn't you be just as upset about it if they'd announced she was a hooker at a press conference?

no

the main reason it would be relevant is that it's another thing she's lying about, yes.

― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, July 3, 2011 4:47 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark

i haven't followed this with complete assiduity, but has she said anything at all in public? afaict pretty much everything out there is a leak. having just read a rolling stone article making jerk-off gestures about the italian gestures, this whole thing strikes me as pretty fucked. so, i guess if she is a prostitute, either way, it would be better for that to come out in some kind of trial process.

Not sure what relevance her being, or not being, a prostitute has, or why matt thinks its remotely relevant. Prostitution is illegal, ergo prostitutes lie about it, which says more about the work than her "credibility" or w/e, and prostitutes can be and often are raped. And the court of public opinion is irrelevant here unless matt thinks some bullshit about the people have the right to know

She's known to lie about rape, she talked about squeezing money out of DSK with a known drug dealer, she lied to the DA about what she did after the incident

just xp to a post upthread, i really don't find this a damning list of pertinent credibility flaws, so much as a list of possible, irrelevant marks against her character. is the lied to the DA about what she did after the incident thing something we know about? eg moreso than it having been an amendment to her original statement, rather than an admittance of purposeful deceit? b/c amending the details of just-what-you-did shortly after you were sexually assaulted seems like the kinda thing that there's room for understanding of. even talking about squeezing money out of the guy w/a known-drug-dealer just seems like something it's p hard to condemn in itself, after accepting the initial premise that she's been attacked, w/the 'known drug dealer' part just seeming like contextualising trash talk. (i don't know about the lying-about-rape thing) i shouldn't really jump in here because i don't know really any of the facts but just once we're in the realm of 'here are a variety of terrible things about the victim that might speak to whether or not she was attacked' it seems like they're worth parsing a lil.

just xp to a post upthread, i really don't find this a damning list of pertinent credibility flaws, so much as a list of possible, irrelevant marks against her character. is the lied to the DA about what she did after the incident thing something we know about? eg moreso than it having been an amendment to her original statement, rather than an admittance of purposeful deceit? b/c amending the details of just-what-you-did shortly after you were sexually assaulted seems like the kinda thing that there's room for understanding of. even talking about squeezing money out of the guy w/a known-drug-dealer just seems like something it's p hard to condemn in itself, after accepting the initial premise that she's been attacked, w/the 'known drug dealer' part just seeming like contextualising trash talk. (i don't know about the lying-about-rape thing) i shouldn't really jump in here because i don't know really any of the facts but just once we're in the realm of 'here are a variety of terrible things about the victim that might speak to whether or not she was attacked' it seems like they're worth parsing a lil.

― devoted to boats (schlump), Sunday, July 3, 2011 4:43 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/letter-from-prosecutors-on-the-accuser-of-strauss-kahn/article2083747/

maybe hurting can answer this question--if the DA's office has reason to believe that she's a hooker, wouldn't they be compelled to let DSK's lawyers know, the same way they did w/ the other info about her boyfriend, the asylum application, etc.

yes, totally --hurting

Not sure what relevance her being, or not being, a prostitute has, or why matt thinks its remotely relevant. Prostitution is illegal, ergo prostitutes lie about it, which says more about the work than her "credibility" or w/e, and prostitutes can be and often are raped. And the court of public opinion is irrelevant here unless matt thinks some bullshit about the people have the right to know

― *rolls eyez on me* (D-40), Sunday, July 3, 2011 4:39 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark

Unless there's really strong physical evidence of assault, the whole case will rest on her testimony. Every lie she told in her story to prosecutors and police will be relevant. They might have understandable explanations, especially outside the courtroom, but they all matter w/r/t reasonable doubt and whether this should really even go to trial.

the thing amongst others re the prostitution claim that i find weird and maybe i just dont know enough abt the particularly industry here is when youre a prostitute isnt that like your job why would you be a maid too

yeah the whole idea of a posh hooker hotel in downtown NY seems unlikely.

heh, the original post story seemed to be implying that her union pimped her out?

in the movies the hookers always just hang out in the bar, no

and in real life

fyi

An occupation where you can receive cash from strangers in hotel rooms without anyone raising an eyebrow sounds like the ideal front for prostitution, though.

yeah except then you have to clean rooms too?

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2011/07/what-strauss-kahn-and-his-accuser-risked.html

and in real life

― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, July 3, 2011 1:02 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

cool thx bill

Maher or Magill

Not sure what relevance her being, or not being, a prostitute has, or why matt thinks its remotely relevant. Prostitution is illegal, ergo prostitutes lie about it, which says more about the work than her "credibility" or w/e, and prostitutes can be and often are raped. And the court of public opinion is irrelevant here unless matt thinks some bullshit about the people have the right to know

any beef I ever had w/u is permanently squashed because of this booming post

Citing a Harris Interactive poll in the French daily Le Parisien, Le Monde noted Sunday that 49 percent of the French people surveyed favored D.S.K.’s return to politics while 45 percent opposed it. Le Monde reported that despite the renewed support for D.S.K., only 43 percent wanted the Socialists to delay primaries to allow Mr. Strauss-Kahn — who cannot travel outside the United States because of the charges against him — to re-enter the race. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percent.

3% margin of error + numbers that close together = meh

This hooker thing seems totally absurd. DSK admitted he had consensual sex with her. If she was a hooker, why wouldn't his side have leaked that information earlier? At the very least, it lessons the suspicions raised by "I leapt out of the bathroom naked and had surprise consensual sex with her." One way or another, this poor person sounds like she was totally taken advantage of, whether she's a capital V victim or not (let alone a capital H hooker). But this will all come out in a trial of some sort eventually.

Yes exactly, why wouldn't this have leaked already? Or been in the prosecution's letter?

OF COURSE a powerful media propaganda war would be launched against whoever had said one of the most powerful men in the world raped her. this is it happening! at stake is the story of what happened. the story of who DSK is, and who this maid is. the soldiers manning the artillery in this war would feel irresponsible if they did anything less. maybe i read too much john lecarre and ed mcbain but i can't help feeling like the NY DA isn't really a match for whatever operatives DSK is familiar with.

On the subject of the letter can someone explain why the DA's office was obligated to include specific examples of untruthfulness in that letter, but also allowed to elide others with the last paragraph: "Finally, during the course of this investigation, the complainant was untruthful with assistant district attorneys about a variety of additional topics concerning her history, background, present circumstances and personal relationships."

lagarde fights prison style, dsk should have known this

Something to do with the rules of discovery, no doubt.

TBF, DSK hasn't exactly emerged from the powerful media propaganda war against him unscathed, either. Dude's tarnished goods, whether or not his French friends embrace him or not. Think he's going to get invited to lots of state dinners and high-profile functions after this? Regardless of his culpability in this specific case, he's already been tried and convicted of being a total lecherous asshole.

the lasers of a dying hosebeast

they're even more dangerous when cornered!

TBF, DSK hasn't exactly emerged from the powerful media propaganda war against him unscathed, either. Dude's tarnished goods, whether or not his French friends embrace him or not. Think he's going to get invited to lots of state dinners and high-profile functions after this? Regardless of his culpability in this specific case, he's already been tried and convicted of being a total lecherous asshole.

― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, July 3, 2011 11:01 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

apropos of nothing, chris brown is on the cover of the source this month

Yeah, but celebrities are expected to behave badly, and often benefit from a bit of bad boy rep bolstering.

dsk: the french chris brown

DSK's new venture: Bad Boy Bank.

FWIW in re the question above I know next to nothing about criminal discovery rules. I basically avoided crim-related stuff in law school as much as possible, and even if I hadn't that may be the kind of question that wouldn't be covered in depth in a standard LS criminal procedure class. Generally, yes there's a lot of stuff the two sides have to give each other. Presumably the discovery process is still going on, and it seems likely that one side or the other may not yet be disclosing things because they haven't yet fully investigated them, i.e. it's possible maybe the DA office had just gotten some "tip" about the prosecution thing and were still checking it out or had some other reason for not yet disclosing it. Or maybe it's complete bullshit, no idea. The fact that only the NYPost feels comfortable reporting it makes me pretty hesitant to treat it seriously at least as of yet.

question: was the actual forensic evidence alluded to (& ignored) upthread actually discredited, or did that all that get lost in the whole DA-leaked campaign to smear the victim as a 'hooker' to cover up for Vance being too much of a shiteating wuss to let this go to trial? (sorry if NYPD/DA's office actually wasn't responsible for that getting leaked and that got covered; I started crying about 2/3 thru the revive and def missed a bunch of the hooker conversation)

(btw aerosmith, you're a fucking mensch; I just got a new job, so whenever you decide you want to drink for free, go ahead and send me your bar tab and I will cover the charges)

What's the theory behind the DA leaking this stuff to "cover up" for not wanting to go to trial exactly? Because it seems to me it may well be destroying Vance's career.

I also question the continued martyrization ITT of a woman who, in a tape-recorded conversation, appears to have discussed using the situation to extort money. This isn't some "just trying to feed my family" immigrant case -- she had $100,000 in cash deposits to her bank account over the last two years.

I mean I think some people are maybe getting too attached to their original indignation at what we thought the story was, which, in any case, is now a bit more complicated than we thought. She may or may not have been raped, but I think the matter has at minimum been thrown into question. I also think people are forgetting that putting a person in prison for rape is a pretty serious matter and OUGHT to require a high burden of proof -- it's the defendant's liberty at stake, not the victim's. Again, not saying she wasn't raped or that if she was she somehow is less deserving of justice, but it seems a bit smug, frankly, to dismiss everything that has come out in the last few days as just some "smear campaign" -- it at least warrants scrutiny.

yes wrongfully accusing someone of rape is a serious matter; wrongfully accusing a rape victim of prostitution otoh...

He said putting a person in prison for rape is a serious matter.

my bad

i asked about the forensic evidence, a topic he skirted

There's been nothing new about the forensic evidence for a month, has there? "Unambiguous evidence of a sexual encounter" but not necessarily w/o consent.

what about the torn ligament and the bruised genitals?

I'm guessing those allegations haven't been widely reported b/c the answer to this question -Does info about the injuries have a source besides her personal lawyer? ― mississippi delta law grad (Hurting 2), Friday, July 1, 2011 6:02 PM (2 days ago) - is afaik still "no." So you couldn't say it's been discredited, but otoh is it actual forensic evidence?

idk.

weird to me how many ppl itt (& irl) are ready to rep for allegations, when those actually seem w/in the realm of cold hard verifiable fact and yet they are the blurriest parts of this case

IDK either, but we don't really have any semblance of DSK's side of the story right now. Agree it's not exactly easy to explain away if true.

The difficulty, as always in rape cases, is that consent does not leave any physical evidence behind. Consent or its lack must always be construed from facts which speak only indirectly to its presence or absence. That is what makes rape cases so unappealing to prosecutors. The burden of proof is very difficult to meet and how a jury will react to your case is nearly impossible to predict. Ask any rape victim who's been to court.

I'd wager that the forensic evidence actually exists; I think it's hopelessly naive to think that NYPD is going to override the diplomatic immunity of and lead away in handcuffs the leader of the World Bank based solely on a hotel maid's accusations...

The police were called, it was quickly ascertained that the alleged perpetrator was about to fly to a country with no extradition treaty with the U.S., in the light of the Polanski case what else could the NYPD have possibly done?

I also question the continued martyrization ITT of a woman who, in a tape-recorded conversation, appears to have discussed using the situation to extort money. This isn't some "just trying to feed my family" immigrant case -- she had $100,000 in cash deposits to her bank account over the last two years.

[...]

― mississippi delta law grad (Hurting 2), Monday, July 4, 2011 5:09 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

i agree that the case 'warrants scrutiny' but really don't care about this convo, or the shadiness of her associates. shady and cynical people get raped too. and im pretty damn sure dsk has had more cynical conversations than that. (and of course in the course of his job made more cynical decisions -- her association with 'known criminals' is minor-league next to the company he keeps. and no this isn't left-wing sentimentalization.)

his cynical conversations in relation to this case haven't been aired as yet, his cynical conversations not relating to this case aren't relevant

Like I've said a couple of times, the alleged rape victim sounds from these second hand accounts like some sort of a victim regardless. Exploited, taken advantage of, otherwise used. An immigrant coached on how to get into the country, with a kid, being used to launder money for drug dealers? Even her alleged scams I can't imagine differ from all the ways other people of lesser means scramble around rules and limits to survive in NYC. I mean, who knows if she even knew she had $100K or whatever. My armchair analysis tells me that victims of abuse are pretty easy to control and push around, and again, from reports, this woman does not sound like some sort of criminal mastermind genius.

^ My feelings, pretty much.

And regarding whatever Fulani phone conversation she had about prying a payday out of this, well, I'd probably be trying to work out how to take my rapist to the cleaners for all he's worth, too.

The tantalizing and frustrating thing about this case is that 1) There is a real story here, and 2) We will probably never know exactly what it is. The kind of truthful detail we all want is found only in fiction.

yeah, otm both points

I also question the continued martyrization ITT of a woman who, in a tape-recorded conversation, appears to have discussed using the situation to extort money.

ehh... she "appears" to possibly discuss using the situation to... get money? ("extort" doesnt really seem right here--it will be hard to "extort" a guy when he is in court.) amy davidson is good on this:

The prosecutors were particularly shaken by the Arizona prison’s recording of a phone call the woman made to the man a day after the incident—and perhaps they were right to be. “A well-placed law enforcement official" told the Times that in it “She says words to the effect of, ‘Don’t worry, this guy has a lot of money. I know what I’m doing’ ” But I’d reserve judgment on that one, at least in terms of the truth of what happened in the hotel suite. First, her lawyer said that in the same call she repeated her story; second, I’m not sure that what a woman would say to calm down an allegedly criminal boyfriend is all that dispositive; and the conversation was in what the official told the Times was a “unique dialect of Fulani,” obscure enough that it had taken prosecutor until this week to get a translation. Anyone who followed the wildly conflicting linguistic testimony in the Forest Hills Bukaharan-dentist-murder case—and anyone who didn’t should read Janet Malcolm’s great account—will remember how tricky those dialects can be in court.

according to this article investigators "haven't found evidence of premeditated blackmail"; he story has remained consistent; hotel witnesses seem to indicate she was deeply traumatized. all sources are prosecution sources, so grain of salt, but:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/03/new-details-emerge-in-dominique-strauss-kahn-case.html

"Yes yes, he raped me. Here's how it happened. But under no circumstances will I attempt to receive monetary compensation, that would be unseemly"

The hooker stuff is just so unbelievable. Like, I sold a watch one time. That doesn't give anyone permission to steal a watch from me now.