Thread for bilingualism in the USA

I noticed that ILX does not have a dedicated thread for bilingualism and related topics so I made one. I am specifically interested in bilingualism in the USA because (1) it is interesting, (2) many native English speakers are already living in a thoroughly bilingual atmosphere and we are approaching official diglossia among some growing demographic groups and (3) so many people seem so afraid of it.

So let's talk about bilingualism.

that'll be me, soon enough

I have two tongues

"La Lechera"

For example: today I was listening to an English language top 40 radio station and I heard a commercial for the Ford Fiesta that code-switched what seemed like a dozen times between English and Spanish. Later I was listening to a Spanish top 40 station and I heard another ad for the Ford Fiesta and it was all in Spanish aside from the words "in" and "out" -- referring to features of the car -- and then I found this: http://adage.com/article/hispanic-marketing/messaging-needed-reach-majority/144536/

That fact that African-Americans and Hispanics are two of the largest consumer groups in the small-car segment and also heavy users of social media like Twitter, Facebook and YouTube hasn't been lost on Ford Motor Co. This year it rolled out "Ready Pa' Tu Mundo" ("Ready for Your World"), a social-media, digital and web platform for the 2011 Ford Fiesta that focuses on young, bilingual Hispanics between ages 18 and 34. Unlike some previous efforts, "Ready Pa' Tu Mundo" understands that young Latinos move comfortably in both languages, are heavy users of social media, and might be watching Univision or CNN, and they download -- and upload -- videos on YouTube.

"absolutely clean glasses"

:]

working in the software industry is fascinating; my office currently employs many people for whom English is not their native language (the gamut runs through Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Cantonese, and some cross-section of the languages spoken in India)

Especially with my ex-wife we used to go from French to English and back and forth all the time

feel like the chances of those young, bilingual hispanics passing it on to their kids is pretty low. I mean, they're a huge demographic and it's an interesting subject but it's still going to be a transitional demographic unless we do more to promote 2nd gen people keeping the language in the family. but it's hard and historically doesn't tend to happen.

pretty much every hispanic I know who is in a "mixed race" family is trying to pass Spanish on to their kids. some of the moms only speak in Spanish to the kids while the dads speak English. when I have kids it will probably be the same way. the kids tend to understand it well but don't usually want to speak it, which is understandable.

good luck, EE.UU.

my brother married into a Cape Verdian family; they are teaching him Creole and Portuguese

xp - That's how it is at my workplace. Constant code switching, in all kinds of different environments. There are some patterns to it, though.

Most of the young Hispanics that I teach are really strongly attached to Spanish and want their kids to speak it too. It's the reading/writing (writing in partic) that is challenging. So. many. spelling. errors.

My four-year-old daughter corrected me the other day that the Spanish word for a light purple color is violeta and not morado like I was saying.

Just out of curiosity, she use the Spanish v or English v?

I love the term "code switching"

She says it the Spanish way, since that's the way the toy she learned it from said it.

I was trying to correct her at first -- "No, Boletta isn't the right word…"

Interesting! I think this is all way new for most USians, particularly ones who grew up outside of large diverse urban areas. (Even though I took Spanish classes from kindergarten through college, I didn't hear a native Spanish speaker in person until a guy from Costa Rica transferred to my high school)

there's a few Hmong people here who speak their language and it's always funny to hear them switch into English for words that their language apparently doesn't have, like "computer"

Also yesterday Obama visited Puerto Rico, the first time a president has done this since KENNEDY. WTF.

Also of note: ubiquity of Pitbull

there's a few Hmong people here who speak their language and it's always funny to hear them switch into English for words that their language apparently doesn't have, like "computer"

― frogbs, Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:20 PM (11 minutes ago)

Where are you from?

I love watching futbol on the spanish channels because their announcers always make silly puns instead of acting serious and analytical like english-speaking announcers do.

Then again I probably just don't understand them when they get serious and analytical.

xp Wisconsin

My sister, who is of Cuban-American descent, and her Ohioan husband (who speaks halting but perfect Spanish) speak to their daughter in Spanish, assuming (correctly, in my view) that she'll pick up English in school and from watching TV soon enough.

I knew a Franco-American family in high school who spoke only French at home (even the American father) but English outside of it - they were very fluently bilingual.

My college buddy married a Mexican woman, and their two kids are bilingual.

In my home, we call pacifiers "dubbers."

my ex-gf's dad grew up on new caledonia (but was not a native...irish-american dad and japanese mom) and i guess spoke to her in french a lot when she was a kid just because he thought being bilingual would be useful. she's fluent in it now, and has easily picked up spanish and is p proficient in arabic.

Speaking of "picking it up in school", not that I disagree with Alfred *at all* but depending on your niece's school she may or may not have a teacher who has any idea how to teach language (as opposed to course content). This is something that worries me. Just because someone speaks a language (say, English) does not mean that s/he is going to have the skills to teach that language to someone else even if the student is young and eager to learn.

It's not that kids won't turn out ok -- they will -- it's that I worry about policy implications, and someone in power (who knows who) enacting sweeping "educational reform" based on bad science because Americans, for the most part, are not very well educated about language learning (in addition to being mostly monolingual themselves).

Speaking of "picking it up in school", not that I disagree with Alfred *at all* but depending on your niece's school she may or may not have a teacher who has any idea how to teach language (as opposed to course content).

A legitimate fear! I hear you. Luckily she'll have me! (at least for a while)

m/l people will speak whatever language they need to get by, in areas where there are lots of diff languages spoken people will speak them, like i was just in the indian himalayas where theres a diff language over every ridge and everyone there speaks like 5-7 languages, in areas where theres just one language people tend to just speak that, bilingualism to the extent it exists in the usa is almost an entirely immigrant phenomenon and by the time the third generation rolls around kids tend to speak the language of their grandparents infrequently poorly or not at all, its just not necessary

to frogsbs:

The word Wisconsin originates from the name given to the Wisconsin River by one of the Algonquian speaking American Indian groups living in the region at the time of European contact.[3] French explorer Jacques Marquette was the first European to reach the Wisconsin River and record its name, arriving in 1673 and calling the river Meskousing in his journal.[4] This spelling was later corrupted to Ouisconsin by other French explorers, and over time this version became the French name for both the Wisconsin River and the surrounding lands. English speakers anglicized the spelling to its modern form when they began to arrive in greater numbers during the early 19th Century. The current spelling was made official by the legislature of Wisconsin Territory in 1845.[5]
Throughout the course of its many variations, the Algonquian word for Wisconsin and its original meaning have both grown obscure. Interpretations may vary, but most implicate the river and the red sandstone that line its banks. One leading theory holds that the name originated from the Miami word Meskonsing, meaning "it lies red," a reference to the setting of the Wisconsin River as it flows by the reddish sandstone of the Wisconsin Dells.[6] Numerous other theories have also been widely publicized, including claims that name originated from one of a variety of Ojibwa words meaning "red stone place," "gathering of the waters," or "great rock."[7]

Wonder how "funny" Algonquins would think your pronunciation of Wisconsin is...

Or how "funny" Latins would think English-speakers pronounce "Computare"...

etc.

Nothing funny about it tbqf.

He didn't say their pronunciation was funny.

yeah loan words are kind of funny and exciting to hear in a stream of other words you dont understand

True, but the point is that the idea that there are "our words" vs. "their words" is problematic. Especially once you falsely determine words are "English" in origin... reeks of hierarchical prejudice.

bungalow is a hindi word i learned this recently

pajamas too

my only stated goal when i went to college was to leave bi- or tri-lingual. accomplished neither. would love to actually juice up my french to "conversational" status, but it's so frikkin hard to find time for that. and am thinking i'll actually ~need~ to speak a little spanish in my practice

there's nothing "funny" about a wikipedia text dump, i'll tell you that

Also I'm not sure it's loan words so much as code switching. It would only be a loan word if everyone who spoke Hmong acknowledged that "computer" was the word for a computer. Taco is a loan word because there is nothing else to call a taco in English -- a taco is a taco.

reeks of hierarchical prejudice.

Still funny, though, though mostly from the juxtaposition of unintelligible to very familiar words.

Great thread here:

Speaking Spanish when it's not require

Perhaps, too, it's funny because his (bilingual) Hmong colleagues have left the pronunciation of computer as an English loan word instead of just incorporating it into Hmong and pronouncing it as such.

i just realized that i don't know how to say a lot of mexican food in english!
"may i have a flour breadlike wrap filled with beans and vegetables and possibly meat please? i have heard many wonderful things about the flour breadlike wrap filled with beans and vegetables and possibly meat that come from the city named for saint francis of assissi."

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, February 3, 2005 4:33 PM (6 years ago)

that is actually a verbatim quote from AdamRL!!!
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, February 3, 2005 4:44 PM (6 years ago)

I have mixed feelings about that thread.

What's perhaps hierarchical is that we are curious about bungalows and pajamas and amok but less so from the myriad words we've stolen from Dutch or Italian or Spanish or French or even Arabic.

I looked at the Arabic -> English loan word wiki page and it was basically never-ending.

I asked one of them about that and they said that apparently there is not really a translation for "computer" which I was honestly surprised by. Had not even considered that they may have been using the Alquonian form of the word.

btw I totally have a Wisconsin accent and couldn't be more proud of it

What's perhaps hierarchical is that we are curious about bungalows and pajamas and amok but less so from the myriad words we've stolen from Dutch or Italian or Spanish or French or even Arabic.

― in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:11 PM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

sir, they were loaned

So much guilt already. Too soon!

Though I do agree w/ MW

and fwiw i was interested in those words cause i was like in india - that this thread is rife w/groundless accusations and sloppy use of the term code switching should really be a more major concern to everyone imho

call me prejudiced but these lyrics from the Teriyaki Boyz are pretty amusing:

Back in the days
Thing used to be so simple
Just you and me ima wa
Gentle umarekawatta ore ni
Chance wo you know what time is it!?

and furthermore i would be willing to bet there is no native hmong word for computer

of course there isn't!

sir, they were loaned

They have been loaned but they're ours now. Conversely, I can't figure out what half the 'cool' anglicisms in French mean these days. I still love that we use the word 'garage' and the French mostly use the word 'un parking', though. Sens dessus dessous

obviously i wouldn't expect there to be a native word but for something so common you'd think there'd be a term for it like "computer"

This is why German is so glorious...

It's a perfect loan word situation; thing exists in other culture, is cool, already has name. You just appropriate it. Like taco.

tacos are cool its true, and so are computers

This is why German is so glorious...

― it's a meme i made and i like (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, June 15, 2011 5:20 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

...you mean train-car words?

It's a perfect loan word situation; thing exists in other culture, is cool, already has name. You just appropriate it. Like taco.

'taco' seems a bit more natural to me since English and Spanish are kind of in the same language family and have a ton of conjugates, but English to say Arabic or Hebrew or Japanese have pretty much none at all.

I'm guessing that when a Japanese person hears an English speaker say "teriyaki" it's probably a little funny to them too

this got me curious about 'ordinateur' in french - reading up on it, an IBM guy introduced the word back in 1955, back before computer would've been an household word. what are other languages w/ a 'native' word for it?

a household word

or you could just pretend I wrote it in a british accent

English speaker say "teriyaki" it's probably a little funny to them too

Wait till you hear 'rushawa' in Japan.

this got me curious about 'ordinateur' in french

Didn't know that.

yeah kinda interesting huh! let's protect the beautiful french language from the invasion of english (by having a powerful american company create new french words)

I mean it was french people at IBM, but still

One of my favorites is honrón in Spanish

I'm curious about the bilingualism of Scandinavia---some friends of mine just returned from a year in Sweden and they were blown away by how virtually every Swede they encountered spoke flawless English in American accents. I myself have noticed this in the Scandos I've met, and obv ilx has a few very fluent Norwegians and Finns (any swedes?). See also the Dutch. I know icey was suggesting that ppl will be monolingual if that's all that's necessary, but Scandinavia puts the lie to that, I think? Unless of course my friends were totally wrong and grossly overestimated the prevalence of bilingualism there.

(not that it matters, but my pals are a couple of Ukrainians who are bilingual themselves)

the logic is totally different there, for more and more europeans, learning english is arguably 'necessary' - economically, politically, culturally.

Bilingualism is great! I'm pretty fluent in Spanish, more so when I'm living in a Spanish-speaking place; my kids are fluent in French & English. It's conceivable we'll all add German in a couple of years (due to my mobility). Why is it great? I dunno: the world's an interesting place & you can't get at much of what's interesting in a non-native language.

It's true though that in the shitty place in which we presently live in the USA, that my kids are not well-received for being bilingual, though perhaps that's partly a function of American anti-French ridiculosity.

how do I shot bilingualism? like is it really impossible to attain at 30yo? I'm a smart dude!

they were blown away by how virtually every Swede they encountered spoke flawless English in American accents.

This blows me away every time I watch Joel Kinnaman on The Killing.

if you want to juice up your french, radio france has lots of inneresting podcasts

I like that the word for 'broken' in the Tok Pisin language of Papua New Guinea is 'bagarap' - loaned from the English 'bugger up'.

It'll be interesting to see how much control over the English language the traditional gatekeepers of the UK and US can maintain moving forward as English becomes even more of a lingua franca for trade and international relations than it is now. Given that there are 40m more English speakers in India than there are in the UK, what grounds are there for saying (as we tend to do now) that the 'unorthodox' sentence structures, 'archaic' vocubulary and propensity FOR WRITING IN CAPITAL LETTERS, is any less legtimate than our own approach? What grounds will there be when that figure is 400m, rather than 40m?

Is there a sense in the US that the way immigrants are using English will also influence the way native speakers use it, beyond the odd loan word here and there?

xp, there are apparently more people who claim to speak English, as a percentage of the population, in Sweden than in the English-speaking country my father was born in.

Most European schools start childen on a second language at primary age and will add another when they're a little older. A lot of the Swedes who speak English will also have decent German, Spanish or French.

the logic is totally different there, for more and more europeans, learning english is arguably 'necessary' - economically, politically, culturally.

I get this, but I think there's an underlining openness at work, too, that is lacking in America? that is, I guarantee that there ppl in say Norway who are basically fluent in English that do not need to be in their personal or professional life. Like, aside from posting on message boards and listening to rap, what need does tuomas or geir need for their superlative English? Europeans seem to be more comfortable and encouraging of bilingualism in general (even when it isn't necessary!) and Americans just aren't.

well that's true of the academics I know here in France say but it sure as f ain't true down in the provinces. But you're right that in the USA amongst the educated bilingualism isn't the norm.

well that's true of the academics I know here in France say but it sure as f ain't true down in the provinces. But you're right that in the USA amongst the educated bilingualism isn't the norm.

I was speaking more specifically with English speajers in scando countries; I am well acquainted with the non English speakers of s europe

mad typos

From what I've seen over a few trips, young to middle-aged Swedes do indeed tend to be more or less fluent in English ("flawless" is definitely an overstatement). They tended to chalk it up to 1) early mandatory English classes in a well-funded public school system and 2)heavy amounts of subtitled English-language TV. The cultural preference--wherever it emanates from--has a lot of structural support (like most Swedish culture, I guess).

It's ordenador en español también.

Although it definitely depends on what Spanish speaking country you're in though.

When I first moved to Melb I was interested at how many greek and italian ppl here would drop in and out of those languages when speaking. I worked in a govt dept with a lot of greek girls and they all spoke english naturally (2nd gen australians), but would occasionally drop greek words in. My bf of the time's parents did the same in italian, it was when they'd forget an english word they'd just say it in italian instead.

It was so ubiquitous here I began to take it for granted. But now I think on it 15 years later I dont hear it anywhere near as much. Could just be the circles I now move in tho.

I smatter lightly in several languages, meaning I can use as many as three words together (though usually only one, and that one awkwardly). I do not approach fluency in any language but English, which seems to have squatter's rights over every square centimeter of the linguistic areas of my brain.

I'm curious about the bilingualism of Scandinavia---some friends of mine just returned from a year in Sweden and they were blown away by how virtually every Swede they encountered spoke flawless English in American accents. I myself have noticed this in the Scandos I've met, and obv ilx has a few very fluent Norwegians and Finns (any swedes?). See also the Dutch. I know icey was suggesting that ppl will be monolingual if that's all that's necessary, but Scandinavia puts the lie to that, I think? Unless of course my friends were totally wrong and grossly overestimated the prevalence of bilingualism there.

― all the pretty HOOSes (gbx), Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:40 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

search for the grotesco youtube clip from the damage contrlolz thread

bilingualism is awesome, fuiud

and fwiw i was interested in those words cause i was like in india - that this thread is rife w/groundless accusations and sloppy use of the term code switching should really be a more major concern to everyone imho

― ice cr?m, Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:16 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

yeah I'm pretty sure most of the examples itt are code-mixing? not code-switching

Montreal to thread. Whenever I leave for a few days I'm struck by how dull the rest of North America is. It's weird for me to order a sandwich in English or read an English newspaper, but at the same time I only watch English TV and work mostly in English.

Won't the development of universal communicators make all this unnecessary?

We'll communicate by taking pills!

Europeans seem to be more comfortable and encouraging of bilingualism in general (even when it isn't necessary!) and Americans just aren't.

― all the pretty HOOSes (gbx), Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:55 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

they live in tiny little countries surrounded by other languages, their whole continent is like the size of alaska, thats why!

well duh

i mean its cool, i wish i spoke all the languages, but its not american failing, its just cause we live in a really huge country and already speak the most popular language in the world

having english as a first language is an amazing blessing id just like to say imho

like everywhere someone will speak at least a tiny bit, if only to say 'michael jackson'

ha, that's true enough ime

nobody speaks bork bork (<---- my friend's catch-all dubbing of any scando language)

Because of the Swedish Chef on the Muppet Show?

I assume

i mean its cool, i wish i spoke all the languages, but its not american failing, its just cause we live in a really huge country and already speak the most popular language in the world

I'm not sure the conversation ends here, really, but it is certainly a popular viewpoint. I don't think this explains the "English only" movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement) or general xenophobia regarding learning how to speak/use another language. Speaking English is great, but it's not going to disappear because you learn another language. The momentum just isn't there for a lot of people to learn another way of speaking/reading/listening/communicating. To say "hey it's a big country" is a bit reductive/dismissive imo.

Also code switching is a general catch-all term, although sometimes people do use code mixing to be more specific. I didn't see the need to get too explicitly jargony itt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching (sorry)

it's scandalous how late second-language instruction starts in the US. and it's usually optional! like, i was 15 before i even had the opportunity to learn another language in school. yet the very few "bilingual kids" in my school were treated like they were some kind of retards. there was something very backward about that.

I'm curious about the bilingualism of Scandinavia

- very well-funded education system
- language instruction starts very early
- english is the default EU language (sorry France)

...and that's it really. you'll find the same thing in Germany, and some other places. It might stick out more in Scandinavia because there's something about Scando languages that just "fits" well with English intonation. I've been told that Swedish movies, for instance, are some of the easiest to dub into English (and vice versa).

because there's something about Scando languages that just "fits" well with English intonation

Played rather a large part in the history of the British Isles, one way or another, yer Scandinavians.

Don't know about the Scandinavians, but read somewhere (in one of those self-flagellating 'why-oh-why can't British people speak other languages' articles) that Dutch children are esp. good at learning and speaking English but are not actually that good at other languages.

I'm not sure the conversation ends here, really, but it is certainly a popular viewpoint. I don't think this explains the "English only" movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement) or general xenophobia regarding learning how to speak/use another language.

It doesn't just 'end there' but I don't think there's more to it than "learning another language is tough" and isn't really necessary in America. I know in Mexico they start learning English in 5th grade all the way through high school, not because they want to be more "culturally aware" or whatever, but because it's a really useful skill to have there, especially as people living in Mexico who do not speak Spanish usually tend to be pretty rich.

it says a lot that i find videos of english/american people speaking another language not just noteworthy but actually kind of funny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vZMMH1GEaU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-TZAhPR2Zs

how do I shot bilingualism? like is it really impossible to attain at 30yo? I'm a smart dude!

― all the pretty HOOSes (gbx), Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i am trying. it is seriously hard. but like euler says, its kind of unavoidable in academia. a lot of people seem to manage it.

i have never met a swedish, danish or dutch person who wasn't *fluent* in english. i don't think they exist.

- very well-funded education system
- language instruction starts very early
- english is the default EU language (sorry France)

...and that's it really. you'll find the same thing in Germany, and some other places.

doesn't formal schooling start later in scandinavia than, e.g. southern europe. it's certainly no earlier than germany. the weird thing about Scandinavia is the only people who can't speak english are like 70 years old. in germany it's nowhere near as common (mostly young, wealthy people), and people who do speak english are nowhere near as fluent as pretty much every scandinavian.

I studied French and half-learned English by myself - necessary or not, I just find it a beautiful language.

Missed out being exposed to American films + American TV + American music constantly (xp)

yeah, i get why 70 year old scandinavians don't speak english. what isn't obvious is why, say, 40 year old dutch people are fluent, while most 40 year old germans are not, and the young germans who do speak english are far from "bilingual" in the way scandinavians are.

Maybe because Scandinavian languages didn't have the same centrality and historical/ cultural "weight" of German?
Also, Scandinavian relationships with the anglo- and francosphere have probably been less problematic.

i'm surprised to hear you say that about Germans caek. i guess my samples are pretty biased but when i was in Berlin, every single time i asked "do you speak English" they said "a little" and then proceeded to have a flawless conversation with me.

Yeah all that unpleasantness with the Vikings is water under the bridge (watch out for the trolls under there tho)

It doesn't just 'end there' but I don't think there's more to it than "learning another language is tough" and isn't really necessary in America. I know in Mexico they start learning English in 5th grade all the way through high school, not because they want to be more "culturally aware" or whatever, but because it's a really useful skill to have there, especially as people living in Mexico who do not speak Spanish usually tend to be pretty rich.

You don't? You really think that people don't learn other languages only because "it's hard"?

First, it's not that hard. People do it all the time. If speaking other languages were a valued asset (a necessary one or not), people would do it. I think this is changing and people (in the US) are coming around to the idea of the intrinsic value of speaking other languages. For some people, I'm sure it's sheer apathy. But there are zillions of reasons people avoid speaking other languages. It's not limited to Americans either.

Finally, not everyone in Mexico has the privilege of going to high school, so perhaps those who do are given an opportunity to learn some English; this is roughly equivalent to taking Spanish in high school in the US. Anyone who has a little (or even a lot!) high school Spanish knows that it alone is not sufficient for sustained communication. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Anyway, this is an interesting thread of comments from kids on the NYT education site -- it's in response to the NYT Ellen Bialystok article about the value of bilingualism http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/do-you-speak-a-second-or-third-language/

yeah, i wonder if my scandinavian samples might be similarly biased.

where i work (a scientific organization that is pretty international in character), there are quite a few people (all the support staff and the younger, less travelled students/scientists) whose english is a bit shaky. quite often i have to speak in "laboratory english", which is like english without the idioms, which is something i've never had to do with a scandinavian.

Dutch and Swedish are seen as fairly similar to English - certainly closer than a lot of other European languages. I wouldn't underestimate how much of a self-perpetuating cycle it is, either. Education's well funded but the teachers will almost all be fluent in English. One of the most common frustrations i hear from young people in other countries (Romania, China, Greece, even Italy) is that their teachers are often much weaker and they learn most of their stuff from watching The Discovery Channel.

why, say, 40 year old dutch people are fluent, while most 40 year old germans are not

the best theory i've seen, especially given that language teaching in schoools in the netherlands is apparently nothing special, is that dutch tv subtitles english programmes, while german tv dubs it. sweden and denmark, the other two countries with the most english speakers, also subtitle shows.

is that dutch tv subtitles english programmes, while german tv dubs it. sweden and denmark, the other two countries with the most english speakers, also subtitle shows

Worth mentioning

the best theory i've seen, especially given that language teaching in schoools in the netherlands is apparently nothing special, is that dutch tv subtitles english programmes, while german tv dubs it. sweden and denmark, the other two countries with the most english speakers, also subtitle shows.

there's also more german-language content out there cause it's a pretty big place, so the % of anglophone culture the average german is gonna consume would be less. (I'm guessing...)

xxxxxp, i think apathy is a bit harsh. if it was more enjoyable or more necessary, more people would find the time. and if it took less time more people would find the time. we're not talking about a few tapes here. you know better than me, but i'm taking adult classes in german and i've been warned that to get an adult conversational is like 100-200 hours, and to get them *fluent* is more like 1000 hours.

the subtitle theory is certainly a bit part of why most germans sound like cartoon villains when they speak english. they hear nowhere near as much of it.

well also cause our cartoon villains have been made to speak like germans

The Dutch always seem to retain their 'comedy accent' when they speak English

I assume we all prefer when people have accents anyway

You don't? You really think that people don't learn other languages only because "it's hard"?

First, it's not that hard. People do it all the time. If speaking other languages were a valued asset (a necessary one or not), people would do it. I think this is changing and people (in the US) are coming around to the idea of the intrinsic value of speaking other languages. For some people, I'm sure it's sheer apathy. But there are zillions of reasons people avoid speaking other languages. It's not limited to Americans either.

Just because people do it all the time doesn't mean it isn't hard! Believe me I've been trying to learn Spanish for the last 4 years and it definitely is not easy. It's a pretty massive undertaking and frustrating as hell at times. It's not the kind of thing you can expect someone to do on their own even though I'm sure most people understand the "intrinsic value" pretty well. I don't really understand the value in it for the average American. I'm not sure what you're implying by "zillions of reasons people avoid speaking other languages". If someone had the power to learn another language in a day, I would think 100 out of a 100 people would do it.

Finally, not everyone in Mexico has the privilege of going to high school, so perhaps those who do are given an opportunity to learn some English; this is roughly equivalent to taking Spanish in high school in the US. Anyone who has a little (or even a lot!) high school Spanish knows that it alone is not sufficient for sustained communication. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

It's not enough but most of the people I know in Mexico who have gone on to higher education usually know a decent amount of English, not a lot but enough to communicate somewhat. What I'm saying is that as far as their country goes, "knowing English" is much more of an asset than knowing any other language is in America.

There are also different traditions of language instruction in different countries. I have no hard data for this, but anecdotally it seems that French kids grow up learning English grammar almost perfectly, but spend virtually no time on pronunciation. So eet eez very very hard for zee Frantch to ever really shed zare accents.

They shouldn't shed their accents!

Yes -- I agree that it takes a lot of practice and work to learn a language and become even conversant in another language.

But people can't say that people have learned from reading subtitles or watching the Discovery Channel and simultaneously suggest that people don't want to learn another language because learning languages is "too hard". I guess in addition to the mechanics of language learning, I am interested in the sociopolitical/cultural reasons people in the US seem so afraid of bilingualism.

I don't know if this is here or there, but I heard an American musician being interviewed on French radio one time and she was totally fluent in French - slang, the works. I couldn't really keep up with what she was saying. But she made absolutely no effort to have a French accent. None. Every word she said was in a kind of lazy, laid-back American accent, and I have to say I thought it was incredibly charming.

i think english speakers mostly only do it if they need to, and it's somehow become more socially acceptable among the well-educated not to bother, even though people travel more.

it's hard. i would like to be able to speak french but i haven't got the time time.

I have no hard data for this, but anecdotally it seems that French kids grow up learning English grammar almost perfectly, but spend virtually no time on pronunciation.

It's not just pronunciation, it's vocabulary too. The traditional French model (which the country is moving away from, slowly) is seen externally as very much based on structure, rather than communication. I think the idea is that if you don't have the former, you won't get the latter right, but it's not the most natural way to learn.

Young kids here in the Netherlands nowadays have English lessons in primary school already. The particular area I live in they learn no less than four languages in primary school (Dutch, English, Frisian and B1ldts, the latter being a dialect). When they're 12 years old German and French start too for most.

There just isn't a way around English in Holland tbh. TV is subtitles only, no over-dubbing, there's English in culture, products in the supermarket, business jargon, you name it.

xp tp Tracer Yes but you always like such perverse things.

I've noticed Americans speaking Spanish without making any attempt whatsoever to learn pronunciation and thought it was pretty obnoxious, although if language is for communication and you learn enough to connect w other people instead of polishing up your rrrrrrrrrrs, I guess it's doing its job.

most of the people I know in Mexico who have gone on to higher education usually know a decent amount of English
This sounds kind of circular, but this explains your perspective. The people you know who have gone on to higher education know some English. Those are the ones who...go on to higher education.

Meanwhile, from my perspective, I work in higher education and my students are primarily Spanish speaking (US born and from all over Latin America) and it is my job to prepare them to survive academically in the US. It's arduous* work for everyone involved, believe me.

*but valuable, and I love my job FYI WORLD.

what i'm saying is that they know English, yet most Americans who go on to higher education don't know Spanish or really any other language. i'm just saying it's a much more valuable skill for them.

Yes -- I agree that it takes a lot of practice and work to learn a language and become even conversant in another language.

But people can't say that people have learned from reading subtitles or watching the Discovery Channel and simultaneously suggest that people don't want to learn another language because learning languages is "too hard". I guess in addition to the mechanics of language learning, I am interested in the sociopolitical/cultural reasons people in the US seem so afraid of bilingualism.

I don't think anyone's really learned from watching the Discovery Channel. Basically what my wife has told me is that English TV is very valuable for her since she learns all sorts of strange words you'd use in conversational English that you wouldn't learn in a classroom. It's similar for me when if I watch Spanish TV. I think you're kind of implying that everyone should be able to learn another language without disrupting their lives which I definitely find false. I wouldn't say "people in the US are afraid of bilingualism" at all.

That is not what I'm saying, and I don't really want to argue about this. Can we stop? We agree about most of this.

I disagree that people are not afraid of bilingualism, though -- and this is why I started the thread, actually. I think this country has a really weird relationship with other languages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdsoFZxk7DU

i didnt know jodie foster spoke french

*speaks

from what i understand, americans don't even travel abroad that much?

For reference http://www.proenglish.org/

That site gives me the creeps so bad.

what is that weird relationship? why do you think people are afraid? i'm just curious. i would agree that most americans do not want this to become a bilingual country.

im really jealous of bilingual people. its a cool skill to have! in spain i met all these german girls who were learning spanish as their like fourth language.

re: non-scandinavians learning scandinavian languages--my girlfriend is taking a swedish class for work, she says 90% of her class is wall street/i-banker types with swedish girlfriends.

My gf showed that Bradley Cooper video to a coworker of hers who's fluent in French, and she said that Cooper's cadence was great but that he made some dumb grammatical mistakes.

That would be similar if it was a Japanese class, max, although they might not be wall-street types.

(massive xpost)
Ha, Tracer, I was in Rizzoli Bookstore yesterday and there was a French guy in front of me speaking with the accent "So I weel come tomor-ROW?" and I was thinking you've got to be kidding me. Now I'm remembering that in French there is no assigned stress to the syllables of a word the way there is in English so part of the comedy accent is putting the stress in the wrong place.

Tom D, I thought the comedy Dutch accent was speaking British English.

Jody Foster went to the Lycée Francais so she should know French pretty well,although before I learned this fact I remember one time saw her sitting next to anchor on the news broadcast from Antenne 2 and then was shocked when he finally turned to her and conversed in French.

Think another thing that makes learning other languages more difficult to learn in the US is that is that much harder to get the exposure and the practice. If you are in Europe and you sort of know a language you have a lot better chance of getting into a conversation with a speaker of that language and it is more common and expected that you would do so, whereas in the US you are more likely to be pegged as The Gringo Practicing High School Spanish On The Deli Man as on the other thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deYzBjkbZBM&feature=related

frogbs - I don't know -- I guess that's what I'm curious about too. That proenglish site is what I'm talking about when I say that I worry -- I feel like there are imminent policy decisions to be made about language in this country, and some potentially scary people could start to control the discussion. I mean, wow does everyone have an opinion about English or what?! It's like the one thing we all have in common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s10x38SMb-g

sorry to ruin la lecheras nice thread with videos of celebrities speaking in nonenglish languages but i am on a youtube roll here

don't mind me, i am just getting upset about legislating language use in the usa

Have you found William Hurt or John Malkovich speaking French yet, max? Although Malkovich has been dubbed because of his accent when he is actually in a French movie

how do I shot bilingualism? like is it really impossible to attain at 30yo? I'm a smart dude!
― all the pretty HOOSes (gbx), Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i am trying. it is seriously hard. but like euler says, its kind of unavoidable in academia. a lot of people seem to manage it.

― caek, Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:16 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

I remember reading that kids aren't actually that much better at learning languages than adults, it's just that when you're a kid you have all the time in the world to learn a language. I figure that if any one of us were tossed into a total immersion environment for 5-10 years (aka childhood) and were only allowed to communicate in w/e foreign language you are trying to learn, you'd become bilingual sooner or later.

i would like to find a video of an american actor of european descent speaking in a non-european language

Tom D, I thought the comedy Dutch accent was speaking British English.

Visit a few football (or soccer, if you prefer) threads to see the Dutch accent hilarously parodied

I remember reading that kids aren't actually that much better at learning languages than adults, it's just that when you're a kid you have all the time in the world to learn a language.

xp to dayo

no way there are actual brain-level things, young kids have crazy sponge brains

SLA theory to thread -- anyone? hazel? estela? help me out here?

xpost
Talking about soccer, coach Trapattoni loses it in German:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqp64q7kHmw

xp well take a look at what happened to james joyces's daughter

I remember reading that kids aren't actually that much better at learning languages than adults, it's just that when you're a kid you have all the time in the world to learn a language.

hahaha looool. keep in mind these are creatures that can't even tie their own shoes yet before they're even 3 years old can carry on a conversation w you. my son isn't "immersed" in france yet he gets enough practice w/his mom that he can ask for things, express how he feels in french, etc. it is a whole difft level.

Really? I thought kids had crazy neuron growth going on, which helped the brain add new languages that much more easily.

I think that's true, I remember some African language that had inflections in their words that you would literally not be able to hear unless you learned the language before you turned 10

xp well take a look at what happened to james joyces's daughter

anyway I'm just trying to keep the flame alive for people who want to learn languages after they turn 12! let's put it this way, kids probably do have crazy neuron growth that helps them learn languages but that doesn't mean a lack of crazy neuron growth automatically precludes you from being able to learn a new language

if you dont know more than one language by age six you should just give up

you brain has turned from a sponge into a rock

I guess I am as interested in the development of people's attitudes about language as I am about the process of language acquisition itself. They are two separate issues cognitively and emotionally speaking. People have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how the brain learns languages - this is a potentially lucrative research topic, so logically linguists/SLA researchers are into that. What I think is equally interesting are the countless ways in which people rationalize NOT learning another language.

la lechera what do you think of the rosetta stone language dealies

you brain has turned from a sponge into a rock

La Lechera - i'm kind of creeped out by the "pro English" stuff as well because I always associate those guys with the people who have those "This is America. We speak English. Learn it or get out!!" bumper stickers. Obviously I think a lot of people would have an issue with this becoming a bilingual country and I do think a lot of that has to do with the difficulty of learning another language. I don't really see it happening, but then again, I'm from the Midwest.

For example, gbx, you asked "how do I shot bilingualism"

I mean, how? You just start learning, that's how. You start. Along the way, you figure out what works for you and what doesn't. Classes, immersion, tapes, the Discovery Channel, a really long silent period where you listen and absorb -- there is no one BEST WAY FOR EVERYONE. There are a lot of different ways that can be combined according to you and your learning habits, skills, etc. One surefire thing that will prevent you from learning a language is not starting to learn another language.

In sum, if the Rosetta Stone works for you, great! If not, try another method -- there are a lot of them out there. You just need to find a teacher (human or otherwise) whose methods suit your needs.

for german i basically followed this guys advice: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/11/9/195744/646

the pimsleur tapes he recommends are great. but i feel like i need lessons now, and luckily i get them through work.

anyone got any thoughts on whether to go for the "9-12, 5 days for a month approach" or the "6-8, two evenings per week for as long as you can be bothered" approach?

I don't know if this is here or there, but I heard an American musician being interviewed on French radio one time and she was totally fluent in French - slang, the works. I couldn't really keep up with what she was saying. But she made absolutely no effort to have a French accent. None. Every word she said was in a kind of lazy, laid-back American accent, and I have to say I thought it was incredibly charming.

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Thursday, June 16, 2011 10:10 AM (40 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

imo this is really the way to do it, theres a way to get the pronunciation right as far as getting all the syllables in order emphasis flow etc and be perfectly intelligible w/o losing yr original accent , like i love to hear an italian speaking perfect english w/a raw accent, totes gangster

one of the major reasons i didn't apply for grad school in the u.s. was the perception among the people i spoke to that a second language was a prerequisite for a lot of colleges. was that true ca. 2003? is it still true?

xp otm. i try to bring a little bit of ned stark to my german accent.

It's mindblowing that Rosetta doesn't have an iPhone or iPad app yet..

Learning a language as an adult is like learning a musical instrument as an adult- you could do it, you can do it, you can put your adult organization skills, such as they are, to good use in your project, you can get reasonably good, you can have fun, but it's extremely hard to get to the point where it is second nature. Someone who starts at five and keeps at it has a big advantage.

what is the rosetta stone approach?

fwiw anki totally rules for memorizing vocab

Ha. Another big up for Anki.

james that is a defeatist attitude

as for the language xenophobia in america, it exists for sure and isnt pretty but im not sure its a major cause of lack of bilingualism in the u.s., its more of a lagging indicator imo, language is p deep down the human cultural/evolutionary stack

relatedly its really hard to learn a language if you dont have a chance, or more importantly the requirement, to speak it regularly

well the thing is is that i started learning french in...8th grade? and was pretty good at it. so in a sense i'd be re-learning a language as much as anything

also a friend of mine went 0-60 on haitian creole as a 20something, so i figure anything is possible

rosetta stone is like a series of quizzes based on sounds and photos. it doesn't really TEACH you all that much imo, but it's good for cementing stuff.

gbx waaaaay more of that french is "in there" than you think it is...

Rosetta Stone certainly has good PR but I dunno, I've heard some people put it down.

this is based on nothing but speculation and heresy on my part as ive never given a serious attempt to another language but one thing i feel will really help is if theres a bar you can go to and get drunk and speak to people in the language youre trying to learn

I think the bar thing is actually true.

james that is a defeatist attitude

― british sb power (dayo), Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:07 AM (1 minute ago)

anyone on this thread is learning a language right now?

rosetta didn't click for me, partly because you need to be at a computer. i like books and tapes (and reading adverts/other people's newspapers on the u-bahn)

xp that's pretty much the solution to any problem you're having in life tho

Rosetta Stone is a product -- I think they used a content-based communicative approach but I'm not all that familiar with it.

you can def learn a language as an a adult, i know a bunch of people whove picked up excellent tibetan which is i guess i p hard for english speakers, it just takes mucho effort

gbx, again, radio france podcasts! seriously good way to keep up. it's way easier to be immersed in french culture online than it woulda been even 10 years ago.

netflix has a ton of melville movies, thats my plan for learning french

I'll gon.

see the thing about that is just...do i just let them play and wash over me and hope that it starts congealing into meaningful content at some point?

ya! I dunno find something medical-related maybe? I mean a lot of complicated subjects are actually the easiest thing to understand in french because high-level vocab is so often the same.

just move to somewhere where people speak french man

I was learning cantonese but I stopped because of 1. a lack of learning materials and 2. I wasn't going to stay in a cantonese speaking environment

if you just want to play around and see if it is for you, i would recommend acquiring the level 1 pimsleur in your language from *certain websites* and just going through it, 25 mins a day, e.g. while you cook dinner/drive. you make a really rewarding amount of progress in a month. i have a full plate with german, but i am really tempted to do a bit of arabic or something that way. like going to the gym, but for your *mind*.

You stop worrying and just try some different things, gbx!

Podcasts and Anki are the way to go these days.

also this series in your language is great fun http://www.amazon.com/First-1000-Words-English-Thousand/dp/1580864740

gbx if you spent like 1/4 the time reading ilx on reading things in french instead or listening to french podcasts or...w/e you'd be fluent in like a month

;)

pwn

I was learning cantonese but I stopped because of 1. a lack of learning materials and 2. I wasn't going to stay in a cantonese speaking environment

― british sb power (dayo), Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:14 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

3. the yelling

i would say start with an audio course designed with pedagogy in mind rather than a podcast tbh

yes, the yelling, always the yelling

For instance, what works for me is (1) lots and lots and lots of listening/reading/input (2) opportunity to converse 1-on-1 with a native speaker, preferably one I would want to talk with in English (ie someone who I enjoy spending time with) and (3) remembering on a minute-to-minute basis that I can make mistakes and that no one is going to think less of me for it if I just keep talking and keep trying.

Reading out loud is a great thing to do, although you might be self-conscious about it. I knew a guy who would park his car somewhere and do this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_English

...but it has taken me A LONG TIME to figure this out -- I've tried all kinds of different stuff, and some of it has stuck and other parts haven't. Reminding myself that I am not a failure just because I am not the kind of person who takes well to, say, talking to strangers in bars or listening to CDs on the way to work has been really valuable.

Totally agree with reading out loud, esp for shy people who feel alarmed at the sounds coming out of their mouths.

La Lechera's three latest points are all good, especially two. If you don't actually like talking to, i.e. like, your native speaker of choice you might not get too far.

im developing a program called 'Crazy Drunk Mandarin'

you can def learn a language as an a adult, i know a bunch of people whove picked up excellent tibetan which is i guess i p hard for english speakers, it just takes mucho effort

― ice cr?m, Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:11 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah every language has its story of a non-native dude who started learning at 20/30/40 and became fluent in a couple of years. but usually the first step involves selling all your possessions and moving to that country and getting a local boyfriend/girlfriend

yes totally this is what i recommend in my book CRAZY DRUNK MANDARIN, and going to bars

i had a gf who was fluent in french :(

did she get amnesia and forget all her french?

no we broke up last week

Some people learn from gf, significant other but some can't because of "role conflict."

But maybe you should be all "Please baby, baby, PLEASE!" and give it another try.

yes totally this is what i recommend in my book CRAZY DRUNK MANDARIN, and going to bars

cest la vie xp

i'm a big fan of pimsleur, almost more for feeling confident than anything else. and you do learn quite a lot too.

as far as movies go, i am a HUGE fan of finding DVDs that have subtitles in the language the movie is actually in. turn them on. tada. all those little things you'd ordinarily missed are on the screen.

TV and radio were good for my Italian when I lived there, almost as useful as the italiane in terms of learning vocabulary.

DVDs that have subtitles in the language the movie is actually in

Yes!

Will wait for the sequel, CRAZY DRUNK BRAHMAN.
― James & Bobby Quantify (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:31 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

CRAZY DRUNK BRO-MAN: the failsafe system for learning real american english

cest la vie xp

May I recommend http://www.wordreference.com?

gbx I'll translate, james thinks you should have 10 french gfs at once

it's def the alpha way to learn a language

I read that as 10 French gifs at once.

its true gifs might be the easiest way to learn any language

CRAZY DRUNK GIFS: the failsafe ilx method for learning any language

I was desperately searching for a french gif to post but china's firewall blocked me

Almost said "on a d'autres chats à fouetter" but that means something different

gifs are basically just a kind of hi-tech flashcard

lol james that expression has always just been like... ??? to me. i mean frying fish, sure, i can see that. people fry fish. but..

aw, this thread made me think of "French in Action" for the first time in ages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pvMMr4G_E

In many scenes in French in Action, Mireille appears sans brassière, in the same way as Stéphanie, her character from the 1985 French film À nous les garçons. This generated some controversy at the time and was condemned as sexist by three female students at Yale University.

theres an amazing tv station on ny cable for learning english and american culture, a bunch of the shows at first just look like a standard lo-budg sitcom but then yr like why are they being so pedantic where are the jokes why are they going back and reviewing the episode, its p funny

sounds like something LJ would enjoy

It might stick out more in Scandinavia because there's something about Scando languages that just "fits" well with English intonation. I've been told that Swedish movies, for instance, are some of the easiest to dub into English (and vice versa).

Swedish to me sounds like someone from Minnesota speaking English in another room.

it says a lot that i find videos of english/american people speaking another language not just noteworthy but actually kind of funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRi39Ia3njQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcHlXNFpr-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A68D0gYxnro&NR=1

"PANDERING IN MANDARIN!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk4nlgW_2gk

xp - Kinda freaky because of what she's saying (amenazada por el comunismo, etc), but I appreciate her effort. Her "noviembre" is fatal, though. Que viva Kennedy!

PP, to me Swedish sounds like mumbled Italian. Always this sense of dismay at the end of a sentence.

I spent two months in South America a couple months ago and I was amazed at the number of American/English people i met who'd been staying there for 4-6 months and yet hardly spoke any spanish. They kept telling me that english was enough to get by (which also sounds weird cos the few times i tried english, it proved useless). Also the fact that they didn't speak any spanish while telling me that they couldn't believe i was french because i spoke v good english and that "french people are so terrible at english lololol stupid frenchies" was boggling. Tho it is true french ppl are terrible at english, which, as someone pointed upthread is due to the way it is taught in schools. The english teachers i had were all French, knew everything there was to know about english grammar yet had horrible accents. On a few occasions they'd even turn to me to check how something was pronounced, which, when you're a 15 yr old student is hilarious.

I'm surprised the dems were making ads/campaign speeches for Latino voters in the early 60s. Where would that have been shown?

Kinda menacing too, "My husband's firm hand will guide us from the red menace"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gerq4GpHpKw

This possibly unreliable you tube video claims that it was from a Kennedy visit to Bogotá? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azYZDWnA-xI&feature=related

Venezuela clip in color and much longer!
(skip to 4:53) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnYTLqhrZEs

i had the rosetta stone for polish and spent a good deal of time with it before i traveled to poland three years ago. i lent the discs to my friend, who subsequently lost them (and that shit is NOT cheap), so i haven't practiced basically at all since, but i still remember certain words/phrases/sentence constructions from that brief time period i was using it. so i am pro-rosetta stone and would like to get one for another language someday, but as i've said, $$$$$

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqAFO7RJeg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389319/No-speak-English-No-service-sign-leads-Reedy-Creek-Diner-restaurants-sales-TRIPLING.html

It was put up after a group were offended because staff could not speak Spanish.
But Mr Simons said: ‘Everybody's money is green as far as I'm concerned. It’s a communication thing. Nobody here speaks another language other than English.’...

In fact, the sign has received so much attention that he has added a list of additional languages and makes photocopies for customers wanting to take one away.
The sign was originally in Spanish, French, Russian, Irish and German, but Mr Simons said he put it up because of an issue with a group of Hispanic customers.
Now he claims to have even had visits from people speaking foreign languages who come along with an interpreter.
One of the positive messages of support he has received said: ‘A common language is a unifier - you did nothing wrong, Mr Simons. Best wishes to you!’

Hispanic or Latino people make up 8 per cent of North Carolina's population, and last year’s 111 per cent increase was the state’s biggest ethnic group rise in a decade.

‘I'm saddened by the fact that someone might want to see a negative than a positive it's just how you look at things,’ he said.

No. No, it is not just how you look at things. What's with the concern trolling, seriously??? "I feel really sorry for all of you who are so NEGATIVE all the time. Can't you just look on the bright side of racism for a change?? :) :) :)"

for the record i do not believe his sales have tripled, or trebled

Neither do I.

"trebling" is not even a thing afaict

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/opinion/sunday/the-benefits-of-bilingualism.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

email with a pictured flyer I just received from a Hispanic danceclub, says in part:

Jueves: Bachateros y Perreo Ladies Night

I believe the hypothesis here but "shape game" and "puppet game" seem to be shaky measures of intelligence

^ sockpuppet

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/learning-the-language/2012/08/new_law_makes_new_york_second_.html?cmp=ENL-CM-NEWS2

http://www.strath.ac.uk/press/newsreleases/headline_643421_en.html

lol pop sci, etc. but you know, BILINGUAL PEOPLE DO IT BETTER

this is based on nothing but speculation and heresy on my part as ive never given a serious attempt to another language but one thing i feel will really help is if theres a bar you can go to and get drunk and speak to people in the language youre trying to learn

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

I would also recommend talking to children. Children have a smaller vocabulary than adults, and their vocabulary consists of the most basic and elementary words. Also, they don't judge you when you mess up, or if they do, you probably won't care. Even better would be to talk to children while drunk, but that might get you arrested.

My native Gujarati-speaking boyf is always talking on the phone to other Gujus around me, and sometimes I feel all proud of myself for kind of understanding what he's saying, but then I realize it's only because he's interspersing a lot of English words. He says "problem" a lot.

His r'ship with English is interesting. He went to convent (English-medium)school in India, and has kind of worse grammar than I would expect (like, lots of subject-verb agreement issues), but otoh he'll totally bust out words like "bifurcate."

Not being critical of his lack of English fluency, btw. He's managed to accomplish far more in this world using English than I have. All my bilingual friends kind of make me feel like a lazy, privileged ass.

I don't know if this will embed properly or not, but this is the line at Chicago's Navy Pier yesterday
It's all of the students lined up to receive DREAM act benefits. The line took 30 minutes to walk from one end to the other.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/47608251?title=0&;byline=0&portrait=0&color=b30000" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

well ok
anyway, you get the point

Cool US Census map of where English is not the primary language spoken at home http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/language/data/language_map.html?eml=gd

I'm always suprised that there's as much French/German/Polish in the US.

LL I think you would be interested in this article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/learning-chinese-to-fix-the-language-barrier-that-leaves-parents-and-son-near-strangers/2013/10/22/f2438c1a-fb7f-11e2-8752-b41d7ed1f685_story.html

Will read, also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(TV_channel)

Fusion's target audience consists mainly of millenials (roughly the 18-34 age bracket), a group generally regarded as digitally fluent and normally favors social media and internet sources to gain news and base opinions, usually eschewing traditional broadcast and print sources. To that end, Fusion gears its programming less towards the constant coverage of breaking news, instead emphasizing context and analysis on news and issues, along with interviews, documentaries, and long-form reports on current events, lifestyle, and pop culture.[5] Fusion also employs an on-air blending of serious topics and discussions that is, more often than not, laced with irreverence and humor (a "common language" among millenials according to host Alicia Menendez) that aims to reduce the air of pretense and seriousness with which other news outlets treat current topics and issues.[11] The "fusion" of seriousness and lighteartedness has been evident in Fusion's primetime: America with Jorge Ramos, in its first week alone, has taken a more conventional approach, featuring interviews with President Barack Obama and United States Senator Ted Cruz,[14] while Alicia Menendez Tonight has featured more personal and less serious topics, and programs including No, You Shut Up have ventured towards irreverence and even satire.[13]
Fusion was originally conceived to primarily attract a younger audience of an English-speaking Hispanic and Latino American background; about one-fifth of millenials are classified as being of Latino descent[11] and have generally been well-acclimated with English language society in the United States, either as emigrants or as US nationals by birth. After receiving some backlash during development over concerns that too much of a focus was placed on ethnicity, Fusion would broaden its scope during its development, aiming to "engage and champion a young, diverse and inclusive America," regardless of cultural or language background.[6] Isaac Lee, who serves as Fusion's CEO in addition to President of News for Univision, has stated that Hispanic millenials see themselves as part of the broad American culture and that "they want to be part of the same room and part of the same conversation" as non-Hispanics.[5][15]

Thought Fusion was Boston fan mag in which teenage Jonathan Richman (misspelt "Richmond") declared his undying love for The Velvet Underground.

welp now it's a network aimed at latinos
quite an editorial leap, but hey anything can happen!

http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/bilingual-advantage-aging-brain

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-do-you-speak-american-mostly-just-make-up-words

Presumably, the nascent American government didn't intend to use any of these American Englishes in official communications. But already Americans had a reputation for using English more flexibly than British people.

Residents of the United States hung on to words that dropped out of British English: guess, gotten, cabin, junk, molasses. We also began using words lifted from native languages—maize, canoe. But, mostly, Americans would just make words up. Thomas Jefferson, who described himself as "a friend to neology,” created the word "belittle." British writers despaired over it; he simply made up more.

USA! USA! USA! USA!

it's funny to me how France people are shocked to meet an American who speaks even just two languages. I have to explain how heavily Latino the population of the USA has become, and they're amazed. they think the USA = NYC (and maaaaaaybe LA) so I don't know why this is so shocking.

for some reason US citizens do not have a great reputation abroad.

otoh low expectations are easier to hurdle

it doesn't hurt

tbh now that I am trilingual (inc. French) I get the bennies of being American too, not just the "haha George Bush guns hot dogs" mockery