How Perfectly Goddamn Delightful It All Is: Vote for Your Favourite Documentaries

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Details below.

Sometime in the next two weeks, please send me a list of your 10 favourite documentaries (making the deadline Thursday, Aug. 4). Depending upon how many ballots come in—I’m hoping for at least 25—I’ll count down the Top 25 or so on this thread. Until then, use the thread to talk about your favourites, I guess, but don’t post any lists yet.

Define documentary how you want. If you’re the only person who votes for something, it probably won’t matter anyway. If two people decide something’s a documentary, it probably is.

I’ll use the Pazz & Jop scoring system. You have 100 points for your 10 picks; assign them however you want, with 30 the maximum and 5 the minimum. If your ballot is unranked, each film gets 10 points.

Here are three good lists of 100 documentaries to refresh your memory:

http://movies.sky.com/gallery-100-best-documentaries

http://1linereview.blogspot.com/2010/10/cfbs-100-favorite-documentaries.html

http://www.documentarystream.com/top-100-documentaries/ (box-office)

E-mail your ballot to sayhey at rocketmail dot com (or click on my username, which will get you to the same place eventually). Because there’ll be some picks that are unfamiliar to me, the only thing I’d ask is that you double-check titles so I don’t have any trouble figuring out what you’re voting for.

The documentary ballots are roll--well, we're off to a slow start. Everyone is locked in their house, trying to watch as many documentaries as possible before the deadline. I'll bump this every couple of days as a reminder.

I'm seeing the Conan doc tonight. It's directed by Marcel Ophuls, and supposedly it covers Conan's time up in Alaska befriending grizzly bears. I don't expect it will make my list, but it's supposed to be pretty good.

i will forget to do this unless the irrepressible buoyancy of this thread coerces me. to lazily manufacture some discussion: can i include surely-categorisable-as-an-essay-film LA Plays Itself in my list, y/n - &, to agitate, why would you not include it in yours. also, what else should i try to watch in the next few weeks that'll make my list? i've never seen king of kong, hoop dreams, routine pleasures or hotel terminus.

i will also rep hard for gates of heaven, & hope it makes the list - i'm with ebert on thinking it one of the best things ever.

I now see the point of a nominations thread, which always kind of escaped me before. I've opened up the thread where I hope to post results in two weeks, and beyond bumping it every couple of days with a dryly fabulated post about all the ballots pouring in, I don't know how else to manufacture interest.

Los Angeles Plays Itself is definitely a documentary to me, and if I remember correctly, it topped a lot of year-end documentary polls. (Just last night, I found out from a friend who'd interviewed Thom Andersen that he's in his 60s or 70s--I had just assumed he was much younger.) King of Kong and Hoop Dreams are excellent--if I did an expanded Top 20, they'd both be contenders for the second half of the list. I've never been as big on Errol Morris as most people. I just bought a clearout copy of Vernon, Florida a few days ago; Tabloid hasn't gotten an opening here yet. Of the half-dozen I've seen, I probably liked The Fog of War best. I think you'll find a bunch of ideas if you scroll through the first of those three links I posted above.

weirdly i have been watching nothing but documentaries for the last few months. will vote in this.

By the way, I think Charles Crumb would have loved "the irrepressible buoyancy of this thread."

i will probably be boring and put that one featuring the dude in the opening post at number one, too.

Serious question, is this only for documentaries which had a cinema release or are we including TV docs? What about TV series such as 'Cosmos' or 'The World at War'?

^same xp. my #1 is prob crumb or maaybe capturing the friedmans. both are unassailibly great imo

love gates of heaven; ive never seen hoop dreams either

To Be and to Have
Eyes on the Prize
Cane Toads
Joan Rivers: A Piece of Work <-- i genuinely think this is a film for the ages, and will look totally fascinating in they year 2050 or 2150

I will very likely include something from PBS's American Masters series; I think it got a brief theatrical run, too, but I probably would include it regardless. I'm just leaving it up to anyone who votes to decide what should or shouldn't count.

I thought the Joan Rivers film was oddly one of the best getting-old films I've ever seen; you could double-bill it with Tokyo Story or The Straight Story.

do you want directors, year-of-release, etc. or just the title?

Just the title should be enough, and I can fill in the rest from IMDB. The only instances where I might have to check back with you would be something really obscure.

haha well my list is looking grade-a boring BEST DOCS OF ALL-TIME LIST so i dont think that'll be a problem

I think 10 is not enough really. I'd say 20 for an all time poll would be better, but I'm not tallying it at the end of the day.

I'd be glad to tally lists of 20, so if you want to send in that many, please do. I made it 10 because I thought 20 would scare off people who don't see that many documentaries, and I wanted to get as many ballots as possible.

I could go either 10 or 20, but it's gonna be hard to keep it gay-only for the latter.

I'm opening up the voting to non-gay documentaries too, so that's okay.

I will very likely include something from PBS's American Masters series; I think it got a brief theatrical run, too, but I probably would include it regardless.

PBS is a whole well of unexplored content to me; particularly keen to see the farmer's wife, someday (in part because of the great sub-school of midwestern & americana-focused docs, like malle's god's country, demott's seventeen, &c, which'll be on my list).

Just last night, I found out from a friend who'd interviewed Thom Andersen that he's in his 60s or 70s--I had just assumed he was much younger.

andersen is real interesting from what i know; if ever you see his filmography, or the listings for the usually comprehensive retros of his work, you get a list of three docu features & a bunch of formally experimental shorts, the shorts from the fifties & sixties, the docs starting in the eighties on. i'd love to get a bit deeper into his 'work', outside of the films - again, the listings for retrospectives of his work have always seemed real interesting, included talks on deleuze &c&c.

still feel like the broad church of 'documentary' could be kicked around some more. what about something like perfumed nightmare, which is in part re-enacted or staged i think but which i think you're mainly watching so mindful of the conceit of the film that you're accepting it as fact. or zhang-ke's work, &c.

i've been meaning to see shoah for years; any thoughts on that one?

Intermittently gripping.

If anyone deserves pummeling it's Nazi collaborators but my moral sense kicks in after a while -- not to mention my aesthetic one.

I reluctantly left Shoah a couple hours into it. Nothing to do with the film. It was a Sunday, it started sometime around 1:00, I was kind of tired that day, and I had marking to do when I got home. I started to drift for a while, and eventually decided that this was crazy, I'll save it for another day. If I hadn't had the marking waiting for me, I likely would have stupidly stuck around and slept through an hour of it. (Same story for Lav Diaz's Melancholia.) I hope and assume Toronto's Cinematheque will screen it again somewhere down the road.

I don't know Perfumed Nightmare. From your description I'd say not a documentary, but then a lot of Man on Wire is restaged, and I and seemingly most everyone else thinks of that as a documentary. So again, I'll leave it up to you. If just you vote for it, I don't think it would get enough points to place; if you and someone else decide it's a documentary and it places, I won't complain.

Also, if people do want to vote for 20 films, does 100 points for the first 10 (as outlined above) and 5 points each for 11-20 sound okay? (One person has sent in a ranked list so far; I could just solicit another 10 from him.)

God this is such a broad scope. the Seven Up series comes to mind for me immediately but looking thru some of those list links there is so much to choose from.

28 Up was the first one I saw, and it had a huge effect on me--actually, the first documentary I ever loved, largely because of Neil's story. I kept up with the series through 35 and 42, but lost touch after that.

I watched all seven of them in a week or two. It was a very strange feeling to watch them age and change in such an abbreviated time span.

I was very glad to see Neil had gotten it together by 42.

Yeah same here, he was always the one I felt for the most.

oh wow yeah, 7 up is something else. one of the striking things about seeing the programmes now is the dovetailing between the rise of thatcherism & the marginalisation of neil. i was v fond of the scientist, who moved to america, & moved by the path of the woman with the three cute kids who was living on an estate somewhere in the north or in scotland, iirc. the whole thing also does touch on both the constraints and limits of documentary, all while seeming totally fully-formed & adequate - like despite the fact that you are getting an update every seven years, the narrative seems connected. there's the woman who was kind of a rich kid (whose dog you see eat a rabbit?), who talks of the psychic pain of having to see the narrative of your life framed immutably through the footage, & the public school kid who stopped participating ... to become a documentarian. always mad at that kid.

out of curiosity, trayce, was its broadcast a prominent thing in australia? it's one of those things i was surprised to hear a friend in adelaide speak of with as much familiarity as i would, on account of it having been sorta a cultural event through her life. (the australia angle is also interesting because of the kid who you see first in a carehome, nervous & stuttering, & who you next see galloping along the golden white sands of an australian beach astride a unicorn, the quality of life being kinda higher for him there).

i had a dumb idea a while ago, testament more to the anal way i categorise things than to anything about the documentary form; but i thought that between documentary and film, there are so many extended key works, per country, that you could have a long-term project of following a bunch of narratives as a way of thinking about places; so shoah or heimat for germany; historias extrordinarias for argentina; the best of youth for italy; 7 up or our friends in the north for the UK; west of the tracks for china etc, the farmer's wife for the states, etc. i felt like it could be a year of viewing.

&, documentary or not, v much recommend perfumed nightmare, as a beautiful example of democratic, creative cinematic language-making as much as documentary or whatever. one of herzog's favs i think.

I cant speak for how long ago it was a thing here, but I was certainly aware of it as far back as the very early 90s as a thing here yeah.

Just found this photo collage of Neil through the years:

http://documentarystartshere.blogspot.com/2010/10/michael-apted_21.html

The fourth picture working down gives you a good idea of where he's at in 28. Charles Crumb reminded me of Neil in 28--you're haunted by both long after you've seen the films.

Heard great things about the new Fishbone documentary, of all things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChXk4R0mGNw

Offhand, I can only think of one music-related film that will make my top 20 (probably top 10), and one other that's a possibility. I've liked a few, though, especially the Ramones, Daniel Johnston, and Stephin Merritt docs. Concert films, not nearly so much.

yeah i am trying to limit myself to one or two music docs because it'd be too easy to fill up the list otherwise, since i've seen far more of them over the last 20 years than any other sort.

getting down to 10: very hard

also very hard not to include 5 by Frederick Wiseman

i can imagine including don't look back; that it's musical is secondary as it's mainly such a great character piece, of numerous characters. ditto cocksucker blues, which is a beautiful tapestry of an era. sure there's some more.

bravo morbs on watching five wisemans. it's probably an effective choice for top tens, as it leaves you with like forty hours of content.

a friend of mine has seen i think every wiseman film except one or two

this is gonna be super tough because ive seen a lot of great docs that didnt stick in my mind like they should... its easier to summon up memories of Great Movies whose greatness is always being reinforced culturally, than of some awesome little doc that was on HBO 17 years ago or w/e

new york doll is a cool music doc

Totally forgot about the Arthur Kane film--that would be a second-10 contender for me too. One Wiseman will be my #1, another would contend. No matter what kind of poll, though, music or film, I usually stick to a one-per rule. Wiseman is the only director where I'd have to think about that here; others would have that issue with Errol Morris, I imagine, Herzog, maybe even the guy with the hat. (Truthfully, I don't expect Moore to do all that well here--could be wrong.)

Actually, it won't be my #1, wasn't thinking. Close, though.

Off to see the very un-Wiseman like Shampoo...

heh i had to think about 'moore' for a minute to place who you meant. roger & me is a great piece of work, i'll probably consider it. everything else by him gets the gas face

i loved moore's roger & me - again, as a kinda midwestern/americana thing* - back when i saw it, as a film as much as any sort of comment, though i don't think it'll make my list. i don't think there's anyone who i'd break a one-per-list constraint for - i feel like doing so you're probably trying to convey someone's huge range, like how in a (feature) film list both Kane & F For Fake might be worthwhile director-duplicates on account of how different they are (or w/Malle or w/ever) - i guess herzog would count.

totally intrigued to hear what your wiseman pick is - i think the thing that's holding me back from getting around to watching more of them is that i see them more as a body of work rather than individual highlights (i have the manageable high school that i'll probably press on with soon).

* there's a sub-genre of this category that some of moore's other stuff fits into, here, of kinda toxic-americana docus, whereby extrapolating outwards from the film would lead you to have a horrific vision of the states, in which all citizens sleep with a gun under their pillow, in which every character of a portrait of a man who lived with bears is crazy, etc

When We Were Kings. Went into it not knowing/caring shit about boxing, came out a stone Ali freak. Must've watched it over 100 times. I find it endlessly fascinating and, even knowing the outcome, thrilling.

I saw that film at Radio City Music Hall w/ Ali onstage afterward.

I would put M Moore in the 'essay' category rather than docs. Which makes me wonder what to do w/ The Gleaners & I.

bcz it's fresh in my mind I wd probably lean strongest toward Hospital among the Wisemans. (I actually haven't seen all that many, I think 5 or 6.)

Emile de Antonio? I wd probably take In the Year of the Pig over this one:

http://thefilmarchived.blogspot.com/2010/08/making-of-millhouse-white-comedy-film.html

hospital will probably be my wiseman too, but i may vote for high school, probably because i had the strongest initial reaction to it, mostly because i saw it when i was actually in high school.

ugh -- thanks for reminding me that I've been unable to find a copy of High School.

I have still not seen Harlan County USA, which I always want to call Harper Valley PTA

i may vote for shoah, too, but it would definitely be more of a vote for it as a thing that exists in the world. it is grueling in its exhaustiveness, but then i suppose that's partly the point.

if anyone feels like a taking the plunge, the whole damn thing is up on youtube in approximately one zillion ten-minute chunks.

Shoah is a no-doubter, I think it's great. (It's OK to think differently; P Kael did.)

harlan county's gonna get 30 points from me, its amazing

never seen shoah, always been afraid i wouldnt be able to take it seriously after the kael review

what was the gist of the kael dismissal? i don't think i've ever read it.

harlan county usa is amazing

She complained that Lanzmann's relentless bullying of the subjects was oppressive and anti-art.

it started a rather public brawl between her and J. Hoberman

The blurb version of her long review is neutered:

Claude Lanzmann's 9-hour-and-23-minute documentary epic is made up of interviews with people who have knowledge of the Nazi extermination centers--whether as slave laborers, railroad workers, technicians, bureaucrats, or just onlookers. The film has fine, painful moments, and it's widely regarded as a masterpiece. But some may feel that it lacks the moral complexity of a great work, and may also find it logy and diffuse, and exhausting right from the start. Divided into Part I (4 hours and 33 minutes) and Part II (4 hours and 50 minutes).

Oh, wait, shit: Woodstock. And, to a lesser extent, Message To Love: The Isle Of Wight Festival. The latter doesn't hold a candle to the former (how could it?), but is fascinating in its own way.

woodstock should get points for making me want to take my shoes off and go outside asap

I'd rally for "Devil's Playground," "Burden of Dreams," "Man on Wire," "Gates of Heaven," "Salesman," "Winged Migration," the "Up Series," "Paradise Lost," "Hoop Dreams," "Spellbound," "When We Were Kings," "High School," "Hearts of Darkness," "Grizzly Man," maybe "Night And Fog," plus something else from Herzog and Morris. Music is another matter entirely: "Don't Look Back," "Anvil," "Gimme Shelter" ...

Capturing the Friedmans, Inside Job

Is it mentioned upthread that Wiseman, I believe, owns all his own negatives, and will only sell/rent out his prints for educational/non-profit purposes? I think that's right, at least.

No, wait, here there are:

http://www.zipporah.com/films/21

I could never make it through Woodstock.

MoMA had an exhaustive Wiseman retro last year, I made it to very few shows.

maybe he should have jazzed up the titles to make them more alluring - hospital as ORGAN FACTORY, high school as HIGH SCHOOL HIGH

Music docs can be tricky; if you can't stand the music, the doc has an uphill battle in engaging you. And docs by devoted fans sometimes don't have enough distance from their subject to give non-fans a reason to care (lookin' at you, Year Of The Horse).

That said, I vastly prefer Scott Walker to Rush, but the Rush film (Beyond The Lighted Stage) towers above the Walker doc (30 Century Man).

Huh, I really liked the Rush doc a lot, but I thought it followed the Behind the Music format a little too closely. There were fewer revelations than the Walker doc, which was revelation after revelation, I thought.

Metallica doc is also great, but for different reasons.

i agree that 'roger and me' is the only moore i'd consider.

kael never reprinted that 'shoah' review in any of her books. i think she might've been taken aback by the reaction to it.

for some reason music documentaries feel like a different category. the only 'life of a band' type documentary that really stands out to me is 'the filth and the fury.'

xp True about the Walker doc, but I just didn't find it presented compellingly. Maybe it's because I knew less about Rush than Walker that I found more revelations in the Rush doc.

I've been meaning to get to the Metallica doc.

seriously considering voting for filth and the fury just for actually getting some honest emotion out of lydon in the last moments. it's like a brother's grimm troll breaking into tears.

haha xpost

some kind of monster IS amazing but they are all SO loathesome that it's hard to enjoy it so much as gawk.

i hope adam curtis makes a strong showing in the poll -- 'the century of the self' is probably the best documentary i've seen in the last few years.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/lynchnut/Hands2.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_y1USaJemzSs/TGS0DhKhYrI/AAAAAAAAEKM/GNJFYxxbyyQ/s400/SHERMANS+MARCH+1SH.JPG

the shoah review is in my copy of Hooked

will rep for - forbidden lie$, american movie, i like killing flies, rivers & tides, lets get lost

The Filth And The Fury is amazing. I was lucky enough to see it in a theater. I wasn't expecting much, as I didn't really dig The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle, but damn, Temple really drove that shit home.

'hands on a hardbody' was so built up in my mind that i wasnt that blown away by it...it is p dramatic & entertaining tho; also the guy who wins is named jd drew

thanks for the spoiler jerkoff

lol sry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bX3F7uTrg

Man, Hands on a Hard Body is great. So is Filth and the Fury, which I sort of lop in with The Kid Stays in the Picture as a particular kind of slick but illuminating doc.

Rivers and tides

I'll even give Bush credit and say he didn't nominate "radical" SCOTUS nominees. Robert Bork was radical in 1987; by 2006 Roberts and Alito were not radical. Obama's problem was not nominating Diane Wood and others who were the liberal equivalents of Roberts and Alito.

woops - wrong thread (maybe)

I've mentioned on other threads how much I love Wiseman's Welfare--that's the one I'll list really high. I'll say so in advance to let anybody who hasn't seen it know that you can watch the whole thing on Veoh: http://www.veoh.com/watch/v20221667Epzd6mQQ. I installed Veoh just so I could embed a Welfare link somewhere else, but within a few days I uninstalled it--it added some annoying things to my browser that I didn't know how to get rid of. But just as a way to watch Welfare without a lot of bother, I'd recommend it; one of the most amazing American films from a time when there were many. (One of the two times I saw Wiseman speak, he indicated he regretted tipping his hand in High School--emphasizing the dreariness of it all, etc.--rather than just stepping back and letting everything unfold as he would do in subsequent films.)

Wiseman aside, one thing I'm very weak on is documentaries that predate the mid-'80s. Besides The Sorrow and the Pity and Night and Fog (Harlan County too), and also the most famous music ones, I haven't seen a whole lot. I think the first one I ever saw in a theatre was Best Boy in the late '70s. I still remember Carson making a somewhat thoughtless joke about the director's acceptance speech at the Academy Awards, obviously oblivious to the subject matter and how much of a personal stake the director had in the film. (I imagine it would look somewhat ordinary today.)

Obama target practice: every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in.

I only saw Harlan County a few months ago -- great, great.

Capturing the Friedmans is a fantastic film for starting arguments--who do you believe? (Really wish I could see PBS's An American Family before voting.) I love those alternate Wiseman titles upthread.

an american family was just on pbs (at least around here) last weekend! it's interesting as a curio, and knowing what we know now about its production, you can really see the moments where the filmmakers juiced things to make it more dramatic. like you wonder (spoilers?) if the wife would have ever decided to separate from her husband and become "liberated" if there wasn't a camera present. sadly nobody comes off very sympathetic, excepting the gay son, who is delightful, probably because he's the only person being himself.

I just saw that about An American Family earlier today--angry for missing it, as I imagine I could have seen it here (Toronto) on the Buffalo affiliate. PBS has posted long excerpts from every episode online, including one episode in its entirety, but I don't think I'll start wading through it all--surely it will be released at some point. Anyway, from what I've read about it, it would seem to have influenced Capturing the Friedmans.

Was interested to hear from Morbius about baseball-related documentaries. The Ken Burns series got knocked around on some baseball thread, but I loved it when it first aired (I bought the box from a friend, and plan to re-watch it from start to finish one day). Especially the way music was used. There are certain songs I can't hear anymore without thinking back to the Burns film: "String of Pearls" (Ted Williams), "Green Onions" (Koufax), "Oye Como Va" (Clemente), "Get Together" (Earl Weaver), even something chronologically out of whack like "Burning Down the House" (Reggie).

i'd be curious to watch the burns baseball again, but i likely never will because i still get red-faced-angry when i think about the jazz doc.

I don't know how to rate multi-part docs like that, or nature docs. Like, "Life of Mammals" totally blew my mind, by I think of it in different terms.

what was wrong with the jazz doc (i didnt see it)

there was an HBO docudrama about an american family recently. it kinda sucked

what was wrong with the jazz doc (i didnt see it)

same - have it on my list, as well as the civil war & twain docs, but had never heard anyone knock it ..?

starting to feel like my list is going to be a little shallow. like i'll probably include the one allan king flick i've seen, but there's something that makes me feel like that's kinda arbitrary (as maybe warrendale beats it, or one of the others), & that that's a bigger deal with documentary because some of the vote is recognising the skill of the practitioner. maybe not though.

rivers and tides is a good choice, such an interesting look at process. i love how humble goldsworthy comes across.

Been enjoying your posts, schlump. The two Allan Kings I'd really recommend are Dying at Grace (a companion to Wiseman's Near Death--difficult to watch) and Memory for Max, Claire, Ida and Company. There's a box that includes both (maybe all of King's films, I can't remember).

yeah; i was actually considering the box set, maybe to inflict on someone else, as i think it's half price in the barnes & noble sale of criterion & eclipse stuff (<$30 iirc). i'm starting to just feel super timid, here, in having backed away from watching the wisemans, on account of their length (& the v literal preparation/portent their titles offer), & the kings on account of how much i think they'll slay me (thx for the rec, i will check one of the two soon enough). i found a married couple very moving - i think the first few shots of it quietly scream of the awkwardness of king being in the house, the guy in the film standing unnaturally against a fireplace trying to act natural, but the camera soon retreats slightly - shooting through windows to great visual effect - and it becomes incredibly revealing. also i just love the guy strutting around in his pants all the time, he's so homer simpson.

glad to hear your welfare recommendation. i think one of the things that i got from watching all the 'slow cinema' stuff in the past few years was just appreciating & understanding the camera as an eye, something that collaterally accumulates a lot of compelling material just because it's shooting humans and the emotions they betray, irrespective of the main story. and i guess wiseman is good on that front.

xp The Montgomery Burns Jazz series is actually useful in spots, and I'd recommend it to anyone new to the subject. But overall, it's ideologically driven by Stanley Crouch and Wynton Marsalis. They were consultants, and the two most prominent talking heads in the film. Both are known for their dismissal of any of the new music that came out of the 60s (aka "free jazz," "the new thing," etc.), and their ideologies determine who gets ridiculed (Cecil Taylor, Art Ensemble, electric Miles), and who gets celebrated as a "savior" of "jazz" (Wynton Marsalis, oddly enough). Because of their confused stances, there are glaring contradictions throughout, peppered with meek defenses and desperate, breathless dismissals (after Albert Murray's rant about Ornette, saying, "You can't embrace entropy!" you want to say, "Who are you trying to convince, Albert? Me, or you?")

The series' focus on the importance of the music having a large audience (and the implication of validation therein) had a hilarious footnote: Wynton was dropped by CBS for low sales soon after the show aired.

But overall, it's ideologically driven by Stanley Crouch and Wynton Marsalis. They were consultants, and the two most prominent talking heads in the film.

^^this. and i remember PLENTY of jazz people arguing about it. aside from the sepia-tinted corniness burns drowns everything in, which it's totally cool with me if you like it, dude has a style at least which is more than you can say for many doc-makers, the man basically denigrated, shunted to the side, or ignored 40 to 50 years of jazz history if he felt it was tarnishing the legacy of louis armstrong.

burns' jazz:jazz::bob costas:baseball

that seems unfair to bob costas.

burns' jazz:jazz::bob costas:baseball

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, July 24, 2011 9:22 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark

ooof.

its actually impossible to be unfair to bob costas

Princess TamTam otm, bob c is the fucking plague

Not to veer off into (literally) inside baseball, but I love Costas's segment on Mays' WS catch in the Burns film. I liked watching him through the '80s and beyond, and I read his state-of-baseball book and thought that was fine. I haven't watched him for many years, so I don't know what he's like today.

I hope to watch the Burns jazz film someday. (Can't remember why, but I wasn't able to commit all that the time when it first aired.) I know it angered some people, and as someone who (to simplify) is more interested in the Coltrane side of jazz than the Armstrong side, I know it's not slanted towards me. But I liked the baseball film so much, I'm sure there's lots there.

The Burns Jazz doc starts out OK, but really loses the thread by the end (or should it say, it simply throws in the towel - I want to say the '60s and beyond get a kind of afterthought overview?). Apparently even Civil War and Baseball (too much New York!) have their detractors, depending on their knowledge of history/baseball, but I suppose the Civil War and baseball, in general, left behind a trail of stats and facts Burns is forced to follow. Jazz is a more subjective territory, which is why so many were pissed at any notion of comprehensiveness.

It's a little nuts to try and compare Hands on a Hard Body to something like The World at War but fuck it here's a couple more i want to pimp
http://amoslassen.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cock.jpg?w=187&h=270 http://www.journeywithjesus.net/FaithAndFilm/Up_The_Yangtze_sm.jpg http://91.207.61.14/m/uploads/v_p_images/2006/04/11225_cover.jpg

^jonestown is dope

oh yeah, that jonestown is good. the last 15/20 minutes are just brutal.

i feel like there are ten thousand chinese documentaries i should see & would be zealous about if i saw - dGenerate films are putting out some great stuff, & there's a whole national identity thing that you seem to get broken into pieces in all of these stories.

The best concert film I'm aware of is Stop Making Sense, but I don't know that I want to count it as a documentary. More like it: Genghis Blues.

Oh I know I am gonna get razzed for my choices, but what the heck:

March of the Penguins
Prohibition (Ken Burns)
Get Lamp: The Text Adventure Documentary
Exit through the Gift Shop
Planet Earth (BBC)

Stop Making Sense is the best movie of '84.

Oh and duh, I forgot that I did really like the MJ "This is it" film. Great insight into a disturbed, perfectionist artist with amazing talent.

two thumbs up for "Stop Making Sense" forgot that one too!

I'd never even heard of Hands on a Hard Body till this thread...Is that the only documentary on Jonestown? I saw one a few years ago at a rep theatre--I see it's PBS, but I assume that's the one I saw. I liked March of the Penguins a lot at the time; Winged Migration, less. I hope to see Project Nim this week. Not big on Stop Making Sense, but that has far more to do with my antipathy towards the band than the film. (My three favourite films from '84 would be Comfort and Joy, Nineteen Eighty-Four, and Stranger Than Paradise.)

there are a couple jonestown-related docs on youtube at the moment. (i don't really want to know why i felt the need to search out multiple docs on jonestown one night but here we are.) the pbs is the best, i think.

loved Up the Yangtze.

also thought Steve James's Stevie was as good as or better than Hoop Dreams.

kinda wish we did a list phase before the voting

was amazed to realize that David Lynch produced Crumb (noticed it on an old ad)

i don't know how i feel about Stevie; at a certain point i was just like why? with the unrelenting misery. i like hoop dreams more.

^^this. and i remember PLENTY of jazz people arguing about it. aside from the sepia-tinted corniness burns drowns everything in, which it's totally cool with me if you like it, dude has a style at least which is more than you can say for many doc-makers, the man basically denigrated, shunted to the side, or ignored 40 to 50 years of jazz history if he felt it was tarnishing the legacy of louis armstrong.

^^^seconded. The only Burns doc I've seen and it made me actively angry

Nothing against Hoop Dreams, but I'll be voting for Stevie. I didn't realize till recently that Steve James directed one of the two Steve Prefontaine films. I saw them both, but if I thought one was markedly better than the other, I've forgotten which.

By list phase, you mean nominations, right? I was hoping the three links in my outline would serve that purpose. I've got to have this done by the third week of August or so--my documentary-poll ceiling--and I figured nominations would have sent me into default.

i watched paris is burning for the first time last night, what an awesome fucking film. really lean and energetic. a+ soundtrack too. i just looked up willi ninja and he died in 2006 :(

my problem with docs is i need to see so many more. i'd include crumb in my list for sure. probably a herzog. i saw so many back in college but i can't remember what. and they were good docs! lots of board of canada stuff i think. i've been on a big norman mclaren kick lately, wish i could include him but he's really not a documentarian.

boxing gym was my first wiseman and it is fantastic. i've seen clips of missile.

i really need to make a list for myself and see more more often. none of this lollygagging about. i can probably think of ten good ones though. it's cool you're doing this poll, clemenza, great thread so far.

I could make my ballot all Herzog tbh

this is (maybe) my last image-puking on this thread
http://i2.listal.com/image/370563/200full.jpg http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106967404/mystery-picasso-pablo-dvd-cover-art.jpg http://static.omdb.si/posters/active/14471.jpg

also would love to see someone remake Phantom India today just to see the shifts over 40 years.

there was a good article on slate a while back arguing that burns's 'civil war,' whatever its merits as a documentary, also coated the whole story in this gauze of patriotic sentimentality -- not least by overuse of shelby foote and his lovable-old-southern-codger routine -- that's helped to contribute to the fucked-up attitudes we continue to have about that war (remembering confederate troops' 'bravery' more readily than confederates lynching black union soldiers, etc).

I like Herzog's The White Balloon particularly, but don't believe he's made ANY of the 10 best documentaries ever.

Fata Morgana for sure on my ballot.

Burns' baseball series had the same gauze of sentimentality in some ways--it used "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" incessantly--but it other ways I remember it as being very clear-eyed: e.g., Marvin Miller and Curt Flood were presented unambiguously as heroes, and everything that was recollected nostalgically about the game pre-'47 was always done so against a backdrop of systemic racism that the film never glossed over.

I show a clip from Clouzot's Picasso film to my class every year. One artist bio will be on my list for sure (Clouzot's isn't a bio). Saw Phantom India a few years ago but don't remember a whole lot. The only Herzog doc I've seen is Grizzly Man, so that's a gap.

also, this is from hands on a hardbody <3

http://i55.tinypic.com/kdmp34.jpg

All for a truck. A TRUCK.

HoaHB is fantastic

I don't think anyone has mentioned Grey Gardens but I love it. Also, Cosmo otm re American Movie.

grey gardens makes my skin crawl like few other films & i cant even look at it

I watched it a couple years ago and was totally haunted by it. I drove out to the Hamptons that weekend to find the house. Such a strange sad story.

it is v sad, yeah. what was it like, did u find the house?

I got both Grey Gardens in the mail just the other day; will make sure to watch them before I draw up my list.

grey gardens is great obvs but if i voted for a maysles itd probably be salesman

salesman is fantastic.

i have salesman on my dvr! will watch b4 i vote

Oh I don't know it! Will investigate.

JC - The house has been totally restored and tbh I wasn't sure if I actually found it. I took my dad's GPS and *think* that I did but the roads in that part of East Hampton as strange and windy and there are a lot of tall hedges and long driveways that obscure some of the houses. OK looking at pictures of the restored house now online, I'm pretty certain that I did, in fact, find it. It was beautiful.

Grey Gardens will probably duke it out for Paris is Burning on my ballot. Or I guess A Grin without a Cat.

will duke it out for the top slot on my ballot, I mean

A Grin without a Cat looks great--didn't know that one at all. I've wanted to see Le mystère Koumiko for years and years, so of course I start poking around and find out it's on YouTube. As much as I don't like the idea of seeing it for the first time on a computer screen, I'll also make an effort to watch that in the next few days.

So, did we settle on 10 or 20 per ballot?

No one indicated a preference, so I'll leave it open. I'd prefer 20, but 10 is fine. A list of 10 would be scored like Pazz & Jop (explained above if that doesn't mean anything); for a second 10, I'd give each film 5 points. It's weird: as much as I love the Beatles, there's some kind of line between my absolute favourites and the dozens of songs I just like a lot, so a ballot of 20 wasn't easy. For this poll, I've got a short list that runs to over 30 films right now and will probably grow to 40.

From everyone's "oh! I didn't know that one," I suggest we do this in a year. (j/k, well, not really)

Fata Morgana? Eric, Leonard Cohen si, Dylan no?

Three somewhat related things I'm considering: A Personal Journey with Martin Scorsese Through American Movies, Godard's Histoire(s) du cinema (yes, an essay), and Todd McCarthy's Visions of Light. Much of the Godard baffled me (big surprise), but at times it was very moving. I never did see Scorsese's Italian equivalent, and McCarthy's film I saw ages ago. I'd vote for any one of them ahead of Los Angeles Plays Itself--which I like, but I find some of Andersen's more arcane complaints a little wearing after a while.

By list phase, you mean nominations, right? I was hoping the three links in my outline would serve that purpose. I've got to have this done by the third week of August or so--my documentary-poll ceiling--and I figured nominations would have sent me into default.

― clemenza, Monday, July 25, 2011 6:55 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

yeah, i meant nominations. it just seems like a poll where it'd be especially helpful to 'remind' people of things, and because a lot of documentaries are online people could be posting links to stuff nobody would've thought of. thats how i would've done it anyway

why does it need to be done by third week of August?

has Paradise Lost been mentioned yet

ah yes thx Josh in Chicago

historie(s) du cinema will def make my list. i should really just send the damn thing already.

i'll also try to spell it right.

obv on Alvy Singer's behalf I will mention The Sorrow and the Pity

and for Vietnam, Hearts and Minds

PTT: I'm off for the summer, and go back late August to set up my classroom. Once school's back in, it'd just be harder for me to attend to something like this. I still don't understand why the three links above don't serve the same function as a nomination thread--I'd estimate that three-quarters of the films that have been mentioned so far can be found on one of those lists. Besides, it's just meant to be a casual poll, not a homework assignment (my occupation notwithstanding) where you have to see every last documentary before voting.

I still remember Peter Davis's scandalous Academy Awards speech in '75. I saw Hearts and Minds a few years ago and liked it. Another one: Far from Vietnam.

But I could certainly push the deadline to Aug. 11 if that helps--that'd give me a couple days to total up votes, and a then a few more to post the results. (My tribute to, um, Mr. Halfway.)

to emulate Mr Halfway, let's do it in 2021.

http://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/obama-angry.png

I'd vote for any one of them ahead of Los Angeles Plays Itself--which I like, but I find some of Andersen's more arcane complaints a little wearing after a while.

bear in mind it's a long time since i saw this & i'm mainly just voting in recognition of andersen's awesome drawl

'visions of light' i oughtta see

'visions of light' i oughtta see

this sounds like the start of a poem

First time I saw Los Angeles Plays Itself, I just assumed Andersen handled narration; second time I noticed it was done by somebody named Encke King. Here's a short Visions of Light clip with James Wong Howe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC1bNfpHT54&feature=related

I still remember Peter Davis's scandalous Academy Awards speech in '75

could you give us a quick precis of this, clem (gonna call you clem, it's sweet sounding)? i can't find anything online/on youtube etc.

the best vietnam thing i ever saw was '4 minutes over my lai', i think, mainly a talking heads thing, probably made for tv. lots of interviews with the protagonists, often with a table full of meds in front of them, shaking & disorientated.

xp that's really interesting, had assumed andersen too! i should consider rescinding my vote.

I remember the uproar more than the specifics (I would have been 13 at the time), but I checked around online and found a message board that says Davis "went on stage and read a message from the provisional communist president of Vietnam." I remember there was booing in the audience, and right after somebody old-guard (Wayne? Hope? Morbius probably remembers) lit into him. It was sort of like Moore's acceptance speech the year he won, but it was the '70s, so it was better.

I thought Bert Schneider read the letter.

That sounds right, yes--Davis was up there, though, wasn't he? And do you remember who it was who got so angry right after?

Err, I have an Oscars book w/the story, but it's not with me. I wanna say it was the host or one of the next presenters.

I must remember this thing called Wikipedia:

During his acceptance of the Academy Award ceremonies on April 8, 1975, co-producer Bert Schneider said, "It's ironic that we're here at a time just before Vietnam is about to be liberated" and then read a telegram containing "Greetings of Friendship to all American People" from the Viet Cong delegation to the Paris Peace Accords. The telegram thanked the anti-war movement "for all they have done on behalf of peace". Frank Sinatra responded later by reading a letter from Bob Hope, another presenter on the show, "The academy is saying, 'We are not responsible for any political references made on the program, and we are sorry they had to take place this evening.'"

That's what was so great about those mid-'70s broadcasts--there was real tension between the Hope/Sinatra/Wayne half of Hollywood and a lot of the people who were winning awards.

I still don't understand why the three links above don't serve the same function as a nomination thread--I'd estimate that three-quarters of the films that have been mentioned so far can be found on one of those lists.

thats kinda my point isnt it?

Besides, it's just meant to be a casual poll, not a homework assignment (my occupation notwithstanding) where you have to see every last documentary before voting.

that was never my intention - one of the most remarked upon positive qualities of the nomination round is how the process exposes people to things they werent familiar with before and might want to check out. the spec fiction poll was celebrated for this. documentaries would seem to me to be most ideal for this, since for a great deal of docs you can actually link to a free video that anyone can view

im not trying to rake you over the coals or anything and its too late to change anything at this point anyway, im just trying to make a case for how the next poll (whatever it is) should be done

visions of light is great btw. i think that was what clued me in on john alton... T-Men is one of the most strikingly shot movies ever imo

Ditto on T-Men; that sauna sequence is amazing.

I've received three ballots, so I'm going to go forward. You can always use this as a practice run and do it again down the road.

Something came up today with one of the ballots: someone cast a vote for the entire Up series, while I planning on voting for 28 Up alone. Eric H. and I had some back and forth on another thread once about whether Sight & Sound should have lumped votes for the first two Godfathers together in their 2002 greatest-ever poll (they did, which moved the pair to #4). If there's anybody else voting for any of the Up films, maybe you'd care to weigh in on whether votes should be counted separately or added together. The answer seems more obvious to me in this instance, but I'll ask anyway.

I'd count them all together. I have no good reason for that though, other than I can't remember them specifically.

I specifically remember 28 Up bcz it was the first one to make it to the US. Also, nowhere near the top 10.

Ooh, "My Architect" is another oft-overlooked recent one.

well, sent mine off. figured if i didn't do it now i'd forget. will probably remember something crucial i forgot to include in about twenty minutes, but oh well.

i would also choose 'capturing the friedmans' and 'crumb' and i think the bukowski documentary 'born into this' is pretty good, but i can never be bothered trying to rank things.

I specifically remember 28 Up bcz it was the first one to make it to the US. Also, nowhere near the top 10.

regrettably being british, it's hard to overstate the poignancy of watching 7 up front to back - either over a lifetime, as my folks did (i have family who were seven when it started, &c, from similar backgrounds &c), or in a short spell, kinda in fast forward. none of this makes its case for being one of the greatest docus ever but it still seems like a unique artefact that did what it did in a way nothing else has done. the portraits of the kids at the start are so valuable just as everymen of their time, kinda like the characters you meet in the maysles' salesman, these incredibly familiar kids from each end of the spectrum. & the social & civic gulf that's obvious between each set, according to where they were born, in how ambitious they are or how entitled they feel, still feels successfully sketched out. & they really did get a lot of revealing moving footage on tape, expressive of how the kid who was living in care could not compute the idea of marriage, & thirty years later is happy but struggling with that foundation, or of the enduring awkwardness of the maybe spoiled rural only child.

this last bit, about footage, used to occupy me a lot, i think when i was watching some of the maysles' stuff, thinking that they somehow never got that total gold the way like studs terkel reliably did in his books - maybe grey gardens, but i think i thought that though great & a great time capsule, salesman caught an era but didn't happen to get the best arc from its characters.

anybody reppin for crazy love? I only saw it once but it was a remarkable experience - I think it may have been the US premiere (it was at Full Frame), packed house, audible shock at all the reveals. Like at the big camera-pulls-back moment, the whole room gasped. Seldom experienced such collective in-sync reaction at a movie.

not 100% sure because i don't know the full synopses for either, but i think hearing about tabloid by errol morris made me think there's some overlap between them, themewise, in case that's interesting
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110713/REVIEWS/110719989/1023

my favourite music doc is MC5: A True Testimonial. it's never been generally released due to legal battles but apparently that's about to change. a mix of interviews with surviving members and their cohorts like radical leader John Sinclair along with stunning archival footage of concerts and hippie-dom in general. the 5's heavy rock is not for everybody but I'll go out on a limb and say if you're interested in the late 60s at all this movie will captivate you. no punches pulled, appropriately, and while guitarist Wayne Kramer is smart/articulate his mates show poignant signs of collateral drug damage.

speaking of drug damage, Lech Kowalski's Story of a Junkie aka Gringois brilliant but excruciatingly hard to watch. documenting the early 80s heyday of the downtown NYC heroin scene this movie is just unrelenting. Focused on punk rocker John Spacely as he makes his daily rounds and lucidly (!)
raps about the hassles horror and humiliation of "gettin' straight." apart from all the gnarly grim scenes of shooting up puking etc you get behind the scenes looks at dope being bagged up at a mill, high-volume retail outlets in abandoned tenements, happy hour at a beyond-sleazy shooting gallery and more. I was never a junkie but I did spend a lot of time in this neighborhood in the 80s and this movie is real as fuck, captures the sights and sounds of the east village circa 1982 like nothing else. nostalgia de la boue, I suppose, but still. but apart from that, if somebody I knew, esp a young person, was flirting w/heroin I would make them watch this. So not for everybody, but if you're interested in the subject or milieu, Story of a Junkie is unforgettable.

Yeah the MC5 doc is excellent, my fav music doc too.

i like the bit where they're talking about playing in front of a hostile crowd, & how f sonic smith PAINTED HIMSELF GOLD

Out golfing. A thoughtful, serious documentary about how truly evil a game golf is, directed by the guy who did the Enron film, is long overdue.

I bought Crazy Love about a year ago but still haven't watched it. I don't remember the MC5 film ever playing here. A couple of vaguely related things I'm considering are the Weather Underground and Patty Hearst docs--I think John Sinclair turns up in the first. (I too have palled around with terrorists: Bernadine Dohrn introduced the W.U. film the night I saw it.)

I'm going to count votes for any Up films separately. Not to reopen Sight & Sound's decision to combine Godfather votes, but there I can see legitimate arguments on both sides. At the very least, I'd say that anyone who voted for only one of them has at least seen the other, and I bet that a very high percentage of such voters consider the one they didn't vote for great also but to a lesser degree. And I understand arguments against combining them too. But with the Up films, you'll get someone like me who loves 28 Up but still hasn't seen even half of the series in its entirety. It seems like an easy call.

seconding the MC5 doc love. Tyner's interview bits are hilarious (RIP)

Can you include some information about where the Up Series would've placed if it was treated as one work in your tabulations somewhere?

I'll do that for sure.

Just got a ballot with a film I'd never heard of (Moog) but that reminded me of one I'd totally forgotten about and that will be on my ballot for sure: Theremin: An Electronic Odyssey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ufaD1fy20

Just loved that when I first saw it. If you're a Brian Wilson fan, be forewarned: not at his best.

Brian's always like that

Things is, I saw him in another documentary a few years later (can't remember what) and he appeared to be much healthier.

One of my favorite things about the early days of the "This" network was that you could turn it on after lunch on like a Tuesday and they'd be showing Theremin...

Having a little difficulty navigating the line between documentary and avant garde in a few cases.

Not going to scour the whole thread to check, but is the deadline still Thursday the 4th?

x-post @ clemenza: patty hearst!, yeah that's a terrific film. i saw it before i saw the sanitised schrader flick, it creams it.
does tape store live around here anymore? i would value his expertise.

Things is, I saw him in another documentary a few years later (can't remember what) and he appeared to be much healthier.

lol well it kinda varies depending on what he's talking about and whether he took his meds that day but dude is NEVER really all there afaict. he's permanently damaged.

my favorite is one time he was professing his love of the Backstreet Boys and when asked what he liked about them he responded "I like their youth, their youth-ness"

right.

Saw it was mentioned, but Eyes on the Prize is like the greatest movie ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHonvu-HxqE

I'd also make the case for Chronicle of a Summer (1961), which along with American Family was the inadvertent mother of reality entertainment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpxVtFQgS4o

And The War at Home (1979), an Oscar-nominated Vietnam-protest documentary that made beautiful use of pop music and interviews to tell its story. If there were movies before it doing the same thing as well, I haven't found them.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080118/

is the deadline still Thursday the 4th?

I'm fine with the 11th if people need till then. But that'd be my outside limit.

I saw Project Nim tonight. Disturbing, would make a perfect double-bill with Grizzly Man. I didn't like it quite as much as Man on Wire--for one thing, it takes these folks a decade to figure out what most eight-year-olds would know already--but it will be on my mind for the next few days. Also found a copy of I Knew It Was You: Rediscovering John Cazale, which I saw a year or two ago at a festival. It's too short and too straightforward (clip, interview, clip, interview) to warrant listing, but if you love Cazale, you've got to see it. It's amazing the people who volunteered to be in it.

I don't want it to be later than the 4th, I just wanted to make sure it hadn't been bumped to earlier.

I'll check again on the 4th to see if that's good enough and take it from there.

Stuff keeps popping into my head. I thought of three art-related things I like: My Kid Could Paint That, Who the #$&% Is Jackson Pollock?, and Who Gets to Call It Art?, a portrait of Henry Geldzahler. I'd say the first is the best, but they all address the question of "Is this art?" to one degree or another. Emile de Antonio's Painters Painting, too, which I saw a long time ago. I've got a copy I taped from TV, and when I want to show my students Warhol, I'll use this clip where some interviewer asks him a really long-winded, jargon-ridden question about the meaning of his art, and Warhol answers with "Uh, yeah."

seconding the MC5 doc love. Tyner's interview bits are hilarious (RIP)

― No Broehner (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

This. Best part is when he talks about how Cream hated following the 5 and he says, "They're lucky they didn't get shot." No smile or laughter follows. He's fucking serious.

The Ramones "End of the Century" doc is really good.

I have the MC5 doc, and I've watched it, but honestly it didn't make much of an impression on me, so I should probably watch it again.

End of the Century's one of the best music docs I've ever seen. I hadn't a clue that Joey and Johnny weren't speaking all those years, and towards the end, when Johnny discusses Joey's death in a way that's so clear-eyed and unsentimental that it borders on callous--instead of breaking down, which is what you're expecting--it's jarring and unforgettable.

Having a little difficulty navigating the line between documentary and avant garde in a few cases.
― third-generation stripper (Eric H.), Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:46 PM

I'm trying to think of an example of what you might mean...Something like Brakhage, where he'll "document" the birth of his child in way that belongs much more to the avant-garde end of things? I don't have any guidelines here--just list whatever feels like it belongs.

Yeah, I'll just send my ballot in as is. The borderline cases will naturally fall well below the line in the results anyway.

I suspect Eric means stuff like Decasia -- which I love, but don't consider a documentary.

oh: Winter Soldier

Yeah, I put Decasia outside of contention, but am still presuming to include Sans soleil, (nostalgia) and Unsere Afrikareise. All of which could probably be argued against.

ah, i was gonna include sans soleil. fuck.

i think "essay films" are totally valid here btw, but ymmv.

Oh, I'm putting Sans soleil on my ballot. #1. NQA.

ah, i was gonna include sans soleil. fuck.

I can make easily change that, or just add it as an 11th pick (5 points) if you want.

I liked Winter Soldier, but believe it or not--knowing full well that the timing of its release just before the '04 election was self-serving--I liked Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry better. (I know Morbius will be a big fan of that one.)

im trying to put together my list but its breaking my brain, plus i am in constant panic that im forgetting something

no, clem, i will keep my list as is, but thanks.

Where would something Patrick Keiller's 'London' or 'Robinson in Space' fit in, they seem to exist in some hazy world of documentary, polemic and fiction?

something like

Not familiar with either of those.

I don't know if they've turned up on this thread yet, but today seems like a good time to mention the spate of money-changes-everything docs from the past few years. Just the ones I've seen: Inside Job, Casino Jack and the United States of Money, Capitalism: A Love Story, Client 9: The Rise and Fall of Eliot Spitzer (related), I.O.U.S.A., The Corporation, Let's Make Money, and Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. Even Startup.com kind of fits--venture capitalists, IPOs, inflated stock value, mismanagement, bankruptcy. I'm sure there are more on the way.

The Corporation was brilliant.

Also, Julien Temple's recent BBC doc Requiem For Detroit.

I keep thinking of good ones that sort themselves into small groups:

Spellbound, Wordplay, Word Wars
Harvard Beats Yale 29-29, The Year of the Yao, Tyson
Manufacturing Consent, Encirclement, American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein
Porn Star: The Legend of Ron Jeremy, Inside Deep Throat
A Skin Too Few: The Days of Nick Drake, Patti Smith: Dream of Life

I'll be voting for some of them. Six ballots so far; with four from people who haven't actually posted on the thread, the 25 I was hoping for seems reachable. A very clear frontrunner has already emerged.

Also, Julien Temple's recent BBC doc Requiem For Detroit.

i don't know that this really transcended 'it would be nice to see a documentary about historic/contemporary detroit', really - think i hold out more hope for 'city on the move' or 'detroit wild city'. i hadn't really trodden too far into that whole field though, the kinda tv storyline film that i guess includes when the levees break, etc.

something i remembered & will probably make my list on account of my fondness for it: zweig's vinyl, for its tone, small-scale, enquiry & self-made charm.

looking at my ballot, it's kind of weird that I have 3 sports documentaries on there despite pretty much never watching sports except for the occasional hockey game

Not to self-aggrandize, but I'm actually in Vinyl (for only about 20 seconds--Alan put together another 90 minutes called Vinyl: The Alternate Take for this years Hot Docs festival, and I'm in that one too much, talking about my teenage crush on Susan Dey). It totally slipped my mind to mention Vinyl.

It seems 90% of what you ppl are mentioning is post-1990. Robert Flaherty is fucked.

My favorite money-changes-everything doc is American Casino.

I am thankful that John Kerry appears only fleetingly in Winter Soldier, or the shithead he has become ("Time for critics of the bin Laden assassination to shut up") would've poisoned it.

hey, Man of Aran is on my list, Malle's Journey to India, and Las Hurdes/Land Without Bread.

Nanook is off to a slow start, yes. I was pretty sure older stuff would not fare well in this poll--and as I wrote above, my own knowledge of documentaries pre-1985 or so is very sketchy.

The absolute weirdest thing in Going Upriver is when Kerry addresses a huge throng on the steps of Congress: if you scan the crowd, plain as day you can spot John Denver sitting off to the side. This would have been '71, I think, when he still wasn't all that well known.

let's be honest, nanook of the north sucks. i only have 100 points to distribute, im not giving any points to any movie that was accompanied by an organist

Off to hell with you.

nanook is basically fiction iirc

can of worms.

not seen that, any good?

'can of worms' i mean

it's better than Man on a Wire

Would rather see Can on a Wire.

I voted. Only one I gave points to that hasn't been mentioned so far was Microcosmos.

(Forgot to vote for The Thief Who Never Gave Up, a TV doc on Richard Williams and his never-completed animated movie. He also animated Roger Rabbit and a bunch of cigarette ads. It's on youtube. Watch it.)

Nick Broomfield's feature doc on Aileen Wuornos (the one including her execution)

The Five Obstructions counts, right? not that I need another one, there's already about 35 on my shortlist.

Again, go with your best judgement. I read a little about it on IMDB and it seemed very confusing. Hope you send in 20, though. All the ballots so far have listed 10, which is fine, but don't cut to 10 if you have a shortlist that long. I've jotted down 40 I'd be happy voting for so far, and my ballot will have 20 for sure.

I really have no time to do this right now

nanook is great, fuiud

Just sent a ballot. No point in waiting.

Again, go with your best judgement. I read a little about it on IMDB and it seemed very confusing. Hope you send in 20, though. All the ballots so far have listed 10, which is fine, but don't cut to 10 if you have a shortlist that long. I've jotted down 40 I'd be happy voting for so far, and my ballot will have 20 for sure.

― clemenza, Friday, July 29, 2011 4:20 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

are you still going with the 100 points total, 30 max, 5 min? because I personally am not going to do a big list if it means diluting the points i can give to the movies i want to rank.

Thanks for sending 20, Eric. And I won't be ruling out anything that gets votes.

The 100 points would be for your first 10. The second 10, if you decide to list that many, would get 5 point each. So a longer list doesn't impact your first 10--it just gets a few points for some other films you might love.

ooh, okay.

Question for Eric: by (nostalgia), do you mean the film by Shu Haolun? I've been checking online, and nowhere do I see it with brackets and without capitalization.

(Hollis Frampton, 1971)

Joyce Wieland's friend--this Canadian is duly ashamed. (Will refrain from any double-live album jokes--not easy.)

I added your extra titles, abanana, thanks.

I thought of something that falls in that grey area that I'd probably vote for but am going to pass on because it just doesn't feel like a documentary to me: Jonas Mekas's As I Was Moving Ahead Occasionally I Saw Brief Glimpses of Beauty. It's not really an essay film, and there's nothing especially experimental about it, from what I remember, but neither would I call it a documentary. It's basically five hours of home movies. I don't point this out to discourage anyone else from voting for things that exist in that grey area.

always wanted to see that; wasn't there a rumour a while back that it's forthcoming on dvd?

&, just out of curiosity, how did you see it? iirc anthology screens it once in a while

I mention Toronto's Cinematheque (now called the Lightbox) periodically; three-quarters of everything I see is there. Mekas was there to introduce it that night. There was some piece of music in the film that really caught my ear, some Velvety drone-like stuff, and I asked him afterwards if there was any way to get hold of it. I think he said it was Tony Conrad, and that it was done specifically for the film. He gave me an address and suggested I write him at a later date; pretty sure I did (this goes back almost ten years) but never heard back.

ha, that's great. i'm glad i asked. & it was just one four or five hour long screening?
have never visited toronto but always heard it was good for cinema (is 'lightbox' the thing that launched its own canon a while back?, that everyone sneered at on account of life is beautiful).

i like tony conrad. i caught the flicker at anthology once & illicitly took this photograph:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6023/5978608569_4eb124b19c_z.jpg

See also this old thread for ideas:

Documentaries I have loved

I used to live around the corner from Anthology when I was in college. Such a great place. A guy I was friends with at the still works there iirc. Watched American Movie again last night. I really love it.

Oh, I see, the end of that was the start of this thread.

I want to vote, but I'm still confused about whether we have to vote for individual documentaries. Not only would I struggle to pick out a single one of the Up series, but what about, as someone said, The World At War or Civilisation? And what about Adam Curtis's films, which tend to come in three parts?

Also thank you for this thread! I won't vote but I've certainly gotten a lot of ideas and movie watching material for the next couple weeks from it. :)

I adore American Movie

That's the one, yes. Here's their Top 100 that they compiled (and programmed) in conjunction with their move into the new building about a year ago:

http://www.tiff.net/essential/about/essential100

A few films aside (you mentioned maybe the most glaring), it's more or less just like every other list of its type. I got into argument with my friend when I said that I thought they'd rigged the scoring so they could get something other than Citizen Kane into the #1 slot. They polled critics, programmers, etc., and balanced those votes with members' votes. If you were to see the spreadsheet of the voting, which they made public, you'd be hard-pressed to figure out how Joan of Arc finished ahead of Citizen Kane. My friend was adamant, though, that they wouldn't do such a thing.

That link helps, yes--that was the thread where I got the idea for this poll. (I need voters, ENBB--just scribble down 10 that you like.)

"TIFF stakeholders" = members like me. God, I hate that word. I think I was at a workshop last year where they referred to students as stakeholders.

Ha - OK I'll think about it and give it a shot. When do you need it by?

x-post -

Yeah, it's great. I'd seen it in the theater when I first came out but not since and there was so much I'd forgotten about it.

Sometime between Aug. 4 and 11--lots of time.

Oh, sweet! In that case I'll definitely try to put something together.

I used to live around the corner from Anthology when I was in college. Such a great place. A guy I was friends with at the still works there iirc. Watched American Movie again last night. I really love it.

think i remember an ilx post about this. it's so great there, i always used to get this nice kind of 'schoolbuilding' vibe from the actual place, all white walls and posters for things that would probably be educational. i don't know a lot about the actual archives but get a lot out of perusing various intriguing artefacts on the site, & their programme's always exemplary

still haven't seen american movie & i oughtta

Actually, this was the thread that gave me the idea:

Favorite Documentaries

A few people make lists of their favourites on that one.

lol yeah schlump as soon as I posted that I had that feeling that we may have talked about it before on another thread.

watched Salesman & Hoop Dreams, voted

I just started Capturing the Friedmans.

gotta see that one too. watched gates of heaven last night, it was great.

Seven ballots in, it may be a landslide for #1.

Fashion is like credit default swaps or cricket for me--it makes no sense whatsoever--so I've enjoyed puzzling my way through a few fashion documentaries: The September Issue, Valentino: The Last Emperor, Yves Saint Laurent: His Life and Times, Unzipped, and Bill Cunningham New York (which is really more about photography).

Another matched pair: A Decade Under the Influence and Easy Riders, Raging Bulls. A lot of overlap--same people all over both, same habit of darting all over the place incoherently. I found that both fell short, although being my favourite decade I'm probably hyper-critical.

American Dream! feel like it's getting shamefully overlooked here! Barbara Kopple bottles up a fantasy world where unions, mustaches, and trucker hats find their loyalties tested in Reagan hell.

also btw The September Issue was fascinating, loved it.

i am thinking crumb is steamrolling this poll; i found it kinda unendurably disturbing when i saw it though i guess that is appealing?

actually quite psyched to see the results of this & buttress my resolve to get around to watching a lot of stuff that i haven't, that will place - harlan county, etc. putting a list together really makes me aware how myopic my docu viewing has been, particularly in terms of providence. i might watch tropic of cancer as a first step towards balancing this out.

gotta see that one too. watched gates of heaven last night, it was great.

so great. get yr dog checked for heartworms.

It's the fine line between genius and madness that you can see when looking at Crumb and his two brothers.

yeah i know i am underserving it there & that its dysfunction isn't totally its focus- just trying to find a place for how i guess upsetting i found it, in a lot of ways, amid the praise. none of which diminishes its achievement obv

Moguls: The Last Mogul, The Kid Stays in the Picture, Unauthorized: The Harvey Weinstein Project. I liked the first, about Lew Wasserman, the best. He was an invisible-hand guy, completely the opposite of blowhards Weinstein and Robert Evans. (Barry Avarich, a Canadian, directed both the Wasserman and Weinstein films; they may even have been done for Canadian TV initially, so I'm not sure how much play they've had elsewhere.)

I've received nine ballots so far, pretty good. If people who plan on voting could send their ballots over the next few days, I'd appreciate it. There was some talk on one of the music polls where someone said he felt like he had to do lots of re-listening and catching up before voting, and others said no, just jot down your favourites as they stand right now and send something in. That's how I feel about these polls too, especially one that involves films. You could spend forever trying to catch up on things you think you might want to list. (I've only done that with Grey Gardens for this poll. Fascinating, but it won't be on my list. It'd make a great double-bill, though, with Crumb, with Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?, even with Welfare.) I'd instead list 10 things you already know, and then use the final list as a reference for future viewing. I'll of course post a master list, too. So far, the nine ballots--most people listed 10 films, a couple listed 20--have yielded 90 different films.

it may be a landslide for #1.

I live in dread.

Does WR: Mysteries of the Organism count? Mine will probably be mostly pre-1985 (if I have time to do it).

WR has already had a vote...Whatever you want to count, counts. (If you cut your designated Obama-hating time by even 15%, you'll have time!)

that'd be like cutting the FAA!

There's a russian ( or post-USSR ) film that was mentioned on here once, lots of very elegaic footage of daily life just after the fall, iirc the camera is always panning west. anyway I looked it up and watched what I could find of it on the net and it was great, but now I've forgotten which thread, and more to the point, the name of the film. any ideas?

Did we already link this?

http://current.com/shows/fifty-documentaries/93335685_50-documentaries-to-see-before-you-die-premieres-8-2-on-current-tv.htm

Looks like they're focusing mostly on stuff from the last decade.

Thanks for the link--it'd be nice to have the list of 50 as another thing people could check before voting, but I think you're right, it'll be already well known titles from the past decade. Is Current TV the equivalent of The Documentary Channel in Canada? I almost subscribed to the latter once so I could tape a bunch of Wiseman films, but never followed through.

Does WR: Mysteries of the Organism count?

First saw that when I was 16/17. It blew my mind.

This is the voting-ends-today/voting-continues-for-another-week bump.

I originally said August 4th, then said anything received before the 11th would be fine. Still true. So far I've received 11 ballots listing 114 films; on top of my own, I still need another 13 to reach the completely arbitrary goal of 25.

The Toronto Film Festival just announced their documentaries for this fall. One of them is Nick Broomfield's Palin film:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/aug/03/nick-broomfield-sarah-palin-toronto

I'm not even sure if I've ever seen a Broomfield film in its entirety--I've seen parts of at least three. I will make sure to see this one.

I should be able to put a ballot together this weekend.

Yeah you totally said the 11th - no backsies!

I can do one this weekend too. ;)

Thanks and thanks--just a friendly reminder. I tabulate votes as ballots come in, so I'll be able to start posting results immediately on the 12th.

can't believe you haven't voted clemenza, JUDAS

I don't believe you...You're a liar! (Strikes up band.)

andersen's awesome drawl

Haha!

hah, feel like i can't vote in this until i've seen 'crumb'

It's good. I like Louie Bluie too

Others that come to mind (and maybe have been mentioned upthread) - Derby, Grin Without A Cat, Winter Soldier, Goshagoaka, Where Does Your Hidden Smile Lie?, London, Fata Morgana, Dong, Sonic Outlaws

hah, feel like i can't vote in this until i've seen 'crumb']

don't do it, you'll add to the pile on.

would listen to andersen narrated audio books fwiw. of like, norwood, maybe.

Try to see Crumb, but send in a ballot even if you don't. I bought Louie Blue in that Criterion sale and put it away for a friend. I'd never even heard of it till a couple of months ago.

I've always wanted to see Derby--I read about it somewhere years ago. I think somebody may have reviewed it in tandem with Kansas City Bomber.

I'm sure we could use a few (more) ballots without Crumb.

or about pop culture in general

That seems really weird to reduce Crumb to a film about pop culture--not least of which being Crumb's own dismay over pop culture in general, expressed again and again throughout the film. Not saying I agree with him, but that does feel like a disconnect to me.

Maybe people should vote for Crumb if it is one of their favourite documentaries. I could personally use a few less polls but maybe it might bring up some interesting films or discussion.

I like Crumb just fine, actually.

I'll settle for lots and lots of ballots, though if Herzog and Moore take up the better half of the top 10, that's a problem.

mine *might* have the former, probably won't have the latter. (assuming i submit one in the first place)

same

yeah i might throw roger and me in largely just for the rabbit lady but i wouldnt vote for a single other thing hes done in a million years

Why do many people here dislike Michael Moore?

cant speak for everybody, but for me he is largely to blame for the documentarian in front of the camera effect that is everywhere these days, and sucks.

Also he has made a lot of shitty documentaries.

He's not my favorite filmmaker or anything, but his films have all have worthwhile passages in them, and he is, in my opinion anyway, right about a lot of things.

He makes AGITPROP ESSAYS, and why don't you blame Led Zep for all the shitty metal bands while you're at it. (Not that I liked them either.)

He is also far less cynical or condescending than Errol Morris, who I also like but not unreservedly. Besides maybe Frederick Wiseman, there aren't too many other activr contemporary US documentary filmmakers with any significant body of work.

xp so what if he does?

Mixed feelings about Moore (never saw Sicko). When he's good, he's funny and entertaining. "His films have all have worthwhile passages in them"--would agree with that. I don't like the way Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 start being about him at certain points, though--like when he swoops in and, with great fanfare, confiscates all the guns in Walmart (or however that scene went)--and I thought he came across as a bully with a clearly fading Charlton Heston. Wouldn't even try to dispute his influence, both in the way he makes films and in generally helping documentaries gain more visibility. But he's just too front and centre for me.

He is also far less cynical or condescending than Errol Morris, who I also like but not unreservedly

it's funny, maybe just in the extent to which you can be dragged into judging people on their cultural standing as much as their work, that i wouldn't have thought to lobby any of the above at morris (who yknow i think of as like a 'true' 'documentarian' &c), though i agree with all of those charges, p much (maybe not condescending?, but still). like his forays into the slo-mo, atmospheric, manipulatively-scored passages of standard operating procedure undermine the source material, i think (sadder in light of the perfect harmony between material and filmmaking practice of gates of heaven, to me).

morbs otm about blaming led zep for dilute metal groups being akin to tacking it onto moore for starting a bad trend. a lot of what made the whole guy-has-hypothesis, guy-proves-hypothesis model successful, and imitable, was how much it assisted in the documentaries being publicly appealing - like for the most part i think socially it is an okay trade off to be reductive, in sicko, in exchange for the leeway it gave him to be more straightforward & engage a popular audience. i know that's arguable. i think the theatre of him leaving a picture of a dead kid outside charlton heston's garage is pretty mawkish, but it's hard to separate it from what the films were and how they delivered their message. also, again, to go back to straight dismissals of him as a kind low-brow docu figure, i'd still rep for roger & me just as a kinda affecting travelogue piece. there are numerous other directors - gorin, herzog - who are the protagonists of their docus and that in itself is not an error. clemenza otm here.

yeah i might throw roger and me in largely just for the rabbit lady

lol

I'm sure this has been covered, but: how have ppl been handling documentary series? In terms of my own ballot, I'm trying to decide if I should include Planet Earth a/o When the Levees Broke

Thanks for the bump! I'm running out of excuses to do so myself.

I take it you mean voting for a part vs. voting for the whole. The only instance where that has come up in ballots received so far is The Up Series, where I've received votes for parts and for the whole. As I mentioned above, in that case I'm going to count all votes separately, though I will, somewhere along the way, make note of the grand total for all Up votes. I still haven't seen When the Levees Broke, but my instinct would be to count that as one whole film, and count If God Is Willing and Da Creek Don't Rise separately. Planet Earth, I don't know--other than to say I'm pretty sure that's the series a student gave me as a gift last Christmas.

I'd let your ballot reflect how you experienced the film(s) yourself. Which is why I don't have a problem when people vote for the Godfather or Apu films as combined works in the Sight & Sound poll. That's how those films work for me.

had to cut both in the end, anyway :/

This is the sitting-in-a-studio-playing-a-prerecorded-radio-podcast/bored-to-tears bump. I think I'm up to 14 ballots now, including my own. I've got to go through the spreadsheet, though--the number of votes entered there don't match a separate list I've got where I just cut-and-paste each ballot from e-mail.

I was down to see The Swimmer last night (ugh), and there was a poster for the upcoming Steve James film, The Interrupters. The tagline does not look promising: "Every city needs heroes." Having read a bit about it on IMDB, though, it looks okay.

It's probably one of the best movies of the year imo.

That's good to hear. The awful tagline jumped out at me, but thinking about Hoop Dreams and Stevie, I probably shouldn't have taken any notice of it.

I fixed the all the scoring. 13 ballots, 129 different films, 26 films on multiple ballots.

(if I have time to do it).

Morbs just do a ballot off the top of your head, everything you've mentioned is great. Giving a third shout to Winter Soldier and a second to Aileen: Life and Death of a Serial Killer, which must be seen back to back with Monster. Might be fun to have a thread of suggested double features between fiction movies and docs.

It's been a long time since I've seen Salesman, so I mostly remember thinking it was obviously fodder for Glengarry Glen Ross. I remember loving High School more, though I don't really remember that either, except the general condescension of adults in all its naked glory.

this was good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWFhplFSEQ

Oh I keep meaning to watch that.

It's probably one of the best movies of the year imo.

― third-generation stripper (Eric H.), Sunday, 7 August 2011 16:31 (4 hours ago) Bookmark

sight & sound lovin it also.

(xp: Whoops, mixed up my Mayseleses with my Wiseman.)

Did anyone mention Seventeen? That would be in my top 3, for sure. Maybe even #1

yeah top three of mine, for sure. you almost feel you're at the party for some of it. and such emotional range.

like the three-way & bereavement?, you know?

The top three so far are You've Got Mail, Cop and a Half, and The Master of Disguise.

(I'm trying to scare everyone straight. I need ballots.)

Is it cool that I'm voting for both Paradise Lost films together? They made my ballot.

Others from my Top 20 that haven't been mentioned yet:

The Decline of Western Civilization (1982): still funny and memorable and great.

Metal and Melancholy (1994) [a.k.a. Metaal en melancholie] and Crazy (1999), my favorite Heddy Honigmann documentaries--everything she's made is great and probably impossible to find on DVD.

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (2002) [a.k.a. Chavez: Inside the Coup]: Never saw anything like this--basically "Live from the U.S.-backed coup."

Style Wars (1983): dry but sweet, and classic on subjectmatter alone.

The Take (2004): For all the movies made by socialists, here's one about an actual factory take-over by workers showing all the practical benefits and challenges involved. To be seen alongside that same year's North Korea: A Day in the Life for balance, I guess.

The Times of Harvey Milk (1984): Made a huge impression on me at a time when homophobia was barely on the mainstream cultural radar.

And a couple very creative political docs I can't leave off:
The Yes Men (2003)
Trouble the Water (2008)

Times of Harvey Milk scored high on my ballot, fwiw. Only doc that can regularly reduce me to hot tears.

Of all the docs i crammed in the past couple of weeks i only added one title to the ballot i had made beforhand, I will have to wait to feel compelled to watch them again before figuring some of them as a favorite. i had forgotten about The Revolution Will Not Be Televised and the take. a couple docs that i liked and weren't mentioned recently: the polish ambulance murders and burma vj.

That's why I think anyone interested in voting is better just to draw up a ballot based on what you already like--the chance that your ballot would be significantly impacted by rushing through a lot of stuff seems minimal to me. And if you did end up making a change or two, it would only nudge the final results in the direction of people voting for the same films.

I decided to leave out shorts too, though each of these is perfect in its way:

American Boy: A Profile of Steven Prince (1978) (Scorsese's Rouch-like documentary, with the adrenaline needle story later turning up in Pulp Fiction.)
Heavy Metal Parking Lot (1986)
Kick Out the Jams (1994, documentary screening at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, with Joe Stummer and many others)
Precious Images (1986, short montage of film scenes)

How 'bout dope? Grass, hash, coke...mescaline, downers, Nembutal, toluol, chloral hydrates? How 'bout uppers, amphetamines? I can get you crystal meth. Nitrous oxide--how 'bout that? I can get you a brand-new Cadillac with the pink slip for two grand.

Is saw American Boy once, ages ago, paired with Italianamerican. I don't remember much except "Time Fades Away" over the credits.

18 ballots, two days to go--I need seven more or I have to officially downgrade this poll from AAA to AA+. Another option is that I go canvassing for ballots door-to-door on my street.

how much of a pain would it be for you to rejigger the numbers if I send you a point-allotted ballot? How many do I get for 20 picks?

No problem at all. You get 100 points for your first 10 (anywhere from 5 to 30 per film), 5 points each for the second 10.

I'll give you a second ballot, if that helps.

Thanks. I'm coming on here tomorrow with 20 or 30 freshman Republicans and I'm simply holding the entire board hostage until I get eight more ballots. I could count down a Top 30 right now with nothing under 19 points (and almost everything with two or more votes), but I'm still aiming for 25 ballots.

august 9th 2011: dr. morbius exercises his right to vote when he hasn't seen Harlan County USA; democracy bottoms out.

I wrote my list down, need to assign point values and i'm good to go.

Yours will be #20, C. Grissom--we're crawling to the finish line with one day to go. The list is actually pretty good as is, though. My objective in getting 25 ballots was so you wouldn't have a lot of films placing high with just one vote, and that won't happen--everything 24th and higher right now has at least two votes, with ten films having at least four. There are 176 films altogether that have received votes; the master-list will give people lots to seek out. I'm helping a friend move tomorrow, so I'll start the countdown Friday. Right now, it looks like I'll do a Top 40. If you've posted on this thread, get your ballot in! If you haven't, send one in too. (And Morbius, if you want your points adjusted, let me know.)

ballot sent via ilxmail

Just sent mine.

Got both of them, thanks. My #1 got a little bump from one of you. Jim: you can count 7 Up separately, or you can vote for the whole series--which would you prefer? (Or rather, which better reflects how you saw the films?)

Ha, that's a tricky question! I've watched them in real time from 28 onwards, but the later ones become increasingly reliant on recap footage from the earlier ones, which makes them feel weaker as standalone films. So I guess I'll choose 21 Up as my one-off favourite.

Okay--I'll enter it as a 21 Up vote.

workin on my ballot now

dr. morbius exercises his right to vote when he hasn't seen Harlan County USA; democracy bottoms out.

democracy, or dicking around on the internet.

I sent my point-laden ballot.

if i give my top two docs 30 points each, the other 8 of my top 10 have to get 5 points apiece right

Gah, I forgot about this. No time to do ranked - but if I do 20 unranked is it still 10 points each? I might actually only manage to pick ten unranked anyway.

I'm doing mine now too!!

20 unranked would work out to 7.5 (150/20) points each; 10 unranked would be 10 points each. PTT--that's right, (2 x 30) + (8 x 5) = 100. (Math teacher at work.)

Not to start doing the old Pazz & Jop demographic thing, but I'd be really glad to get some female ballots--21/21 so far from men. I think it does skew the results.

aggggh i still havent done this

well, of course; women hate list-making AND reality! xp

it would really help if netflix kept track of my viewing by doc genre - super freaked that im going to leave something out

well, of course; women hate list-making AND reality! xp

― satan club sandwich (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:33 PM (11 minutes ago)

I'm going to be charitable and assume this was a joke. Otherwise... *grumpyface*

No, he really hates women

Also, are we discounting Nanook and Fires Were Started for being big old fakers even though they're often slotted in the 'documentary' genre?

If it's a documentary to you, it's a documentary.

I just put one as my #2 that I don't think has even been mentioned yet!

Let me know that you got it Clemenza. I didn't sign the email but my username are my initials so it should be pretty obv from my gmail address who I am :)

username is my initals

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TZFKMKA3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Close?

ENBB--just got it, thanks.

How about Threads?

Threads was a docudrama, no?

Was joking about Threads, though I am tempted for the bleak lols.

I think I might be the only person repping for Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe, which makes me sad.

Good race for the second spot: 73 points/six ballots just ahead of 72 points/6 ballots.

heh i put burden of dreams on my ballot (i think) but no actual herzogs

Sent from my irl email.

ok hastily assembled and poorly thought out ballot on its way

clemenza, do you want comments with these

That's a good question...I did consider at one point soliciting a comment for each film from whichever voter had it ranked the highest on his or her ballot--I remember an ILX poll on '60s or '70s films that included comments. But I know people are busy, and you don't want to make something feel like work (much less unpaid work). I'll leave that open--if anyone does want to pick a high-ranking film or two off your list and e-mail me brief comments, please do and I'll post them alongside each film. If not, just save them for the countdown.

Sent. It's a bit rubbish, I'm afraid. A good few things mentioned on this thread that I would've loved to have watched first had I remembered/had the time.

25--excellent. Thanks to everyone who sent in a ballot. More are welcome (anything that comes in before midnight tomorrow will be fine) of course. I think I'll probably use a still for each film, and include external links for YouTube clips. I expect getting decent clips will be hit or miss, so I'd rather look for good stills. And I'll break ties by number of voters--3 voters/25 points beats 2 voters/25 points.

regretting not sending in a ranked ballot but also thinking that most of mine wont have gotten a lot of votes so it would be a waste of time.

oh hey btw are you counting paradise lost as 2 seperate entries or will votes for one count for the other - i voted for the one i prefer but would gladly shift to the other if it makes a tally difference

That's a tricky one--before your ballot, I had a combined ballot and a couple of ballots that listed one only. I split up the combined ballot into two separate votes, essentially giving that person 21 picks. I haven't seen either film, so I'm not sure if that was the right call. One of them is just on the cusp of making the Top 40.

meant to do this earlier but just sent a ballot your way.

I'm going to count down a Top 40 starting tomorrow (#40-26), then finish up on Monday (#25-11) and Tuesday (top 10). If anybody wants to send in a ballot in the next few hours, that's okay. I was thinking of putting the results right on this thread, rather that start a new one. There's been a lot of good commentary so far, so it'd be a good all-purpose thread to check if wanted to get ideas for things worth seeing.

"rather than"
"if you wanted"

(Taking applications for a personal typist.)

Speaking as a past filmpoll presenter, I think it would be better to do a separate thread for the results. It'll be easier for people to read later on (they'll have a nice shiny thread to look at instead of wading through this one to find the results).

I would agree - a separate thread for the results is always nicer.

No problem. First poll I've done--if a separate thread is standard, I'll start one up tomorrow.

An Impossible Job: ILX's 40 Favorite Documentaries

This infamous Pennebaker/Hegedus doc is showing in a new DCP, and it's credited to Janus as the distributor, so there should be a Criterion soon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Bloody_Hall