Occupy Wall Street

https://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/

the threads on documenting wall street folly can stay on topic, but this is its own thing to track now

should have happened september 2008. I think it's understandable why it didn't, coming right on the eve of a chance to vote for change.

http://i51.tinypic.com/296i2iq.jpg

JPMorgan Chase recently donated an unprecedented $4.6 million to the New York City Police Foundation. The gift was the largest in the history of the foundation and will enable the New York City Police Department to strengthen security in the Big Apple.

http://digg.com/news/world_news/jp_morgan_chase_donates_4_6_million_to_nypd_to_deter_occupywallstreet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XqWEPwuIYtA

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2011/10/01/live-blog-for-occupywallstreet-day-fifteen-huge-demonstration-held-at-nypd-headquarters/#comments

& just in case you blinked, it's only been a few weeks since 1253 people were arrested in front of the White House for Tar Sands Protests and there are more planned, next one on November 6

http://www.tarsandsaction.org/

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-keystone-pipeline-revolt-why-mass-arrests-are-just-the-beginning-20110928

didn't mean to sound snarky -- I only say 'blinked' because I absolutely blinked, I just found that out tonight clicking through the maze

Wall Street Mocks Protestors by Drinking Champagne

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PiXDTK_CBY

I mean if this isn't nearing "bust out the guillotines, M. Robespierre" then we are doomed.

eh its sad to say but these protests have given no one any reason to take them seriously

easy to point fingers when you ain't doing shit u cynical loser

like, I'm sure they'd appreciate your expert advice on media relations.

lol irony

anyway what im talking abt isnt media relations or messaging particularly although those could use some work for sure, before that youve got to understand how civil disobedience works, the concept seems to have degraded over time from a strategic provocation to everyone showing up chanting shit playing drums and 'making their voices heard' - then theres the larger issue of wether this country is atm ripe for large scale protest to break out and really have an effect which im p skeptical of

i have to say that banker champagne video is p darkly hilarious, theyre def showing more self awareness than the protestors, it kind of points out the problem w/everyone constantly looking for villains

not that there arent villains, i just think its possible to look a lil deeper than that

The bankers look fairly restrained in comparison to their counterparts in London who sprayed champagne and threw banknotes out of their windows during large-scale protests a few years ago. They were apparently told not to repeat it during subsequent protests as their employers could see that it's nagl. False humility is much more effective than brazen dickishness.

i convinced myself to like these guys last night.

tho if bankers threw enough money out their windows it could solve some of these problems

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

THEY

the right to assemble is a pretty great freedom that a lot of people in the world don't have, I think it's worth supporting in and of itself w/o necessarily looking to future consequences or playing 11th dimensional chess

hey theyre the ones w/a list of demands maaan

also thanks to the power of the ~internet~ the actions of a few thousand are receiving way more amplification than it would have ten years go. can't decide if that's a good thing or bad thing but props for making it to the front page of the NYT for a few days running

yeah i was wondering what the role of social media is in all this cause the protesters are getting way more bang for their buck than the much much larger iraq war demonstrations did

I went every day this week so I guess to some extent 'I'm part of this.' most peoples' critiques are otm but at the same time I think making attacks on wall street + income inequality regularly enter the media narrative is 'a good thing'. also one of the few subjects where the hard left is pretty clearly w/ the majority of the american public, so it's a good one to focus on. I think, regardless of what happens, it's good precedent for things in the future because I think a public face of the hard left is 'a good thing'.

obv it is far from perfect but it's hard to judge a *genuinely spontaneous event* for not being better planned. which is what it comes down to. or to judge the far left for representing itself w/ anarchist hs students and hippies when *those are the only people showing up*.

it's pretty interesting to watch something that's unorganized slowly organize itself. yes there are huge drawbacks w/ the no leader (it seems like some are slowly emerging) and no message (I think 3-4 days ago it was small enough that a pared down message coulda come out of the process but I think it's prob not gonna happen now.)

yeah i was wondering what the role of social media is in all this cause the protesters are getting way more bang for their buck than the much much larger iraq war demonstrations did

yeah crowds are hilariously small for how much attention this is getting, it's building fairly slowly and I still expect it to mushroom for something or another. but in a lot of ways the way this is using the internet is the most fascinating aspect and why this seems so 'big'. like, this is a post-location protest movement. I mean before yesterday it was never much more than 1.5k and that many people is really not particularly impressive in manhattan.

adbusters would be bummed if they knew how much this all depends on one mcdonalds bathroom

Occupy Handicapped Stall

i for one am shocked that ice cr?m's first post itt begins with 'eh'

adbusters would be bummed if they knew how much this all depends on one mcdonalds bathroom

― iatee, Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:55 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

loll

easy to point fingers when you ain't doing shit u cynical loser

― sleeve, Sunday, October 2, 2011 8:38 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i for one am shocked that ice cr?m's first post itt begins with 'eh'

― thank you BIG HOOS, you brilliant god-man (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, October 2, 2011 11:06 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/oEsRO.gif

<3

I went every day this week so I guess to some extent 'I'm part of this.' most peoples' critiques are otm but at the same time I think making attacks on wall street + income inequality regularly enter the media narrative is 'a good thing'. also one of the few subjects where the hard left is pretty clearly w/ the majority of the american public, so it's a good one to focus on. I think, regardless of what happens, it's good precedent for things in the future because I think a public face of the hard left is 'a good thing'.

― iatee, Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:50 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

agreed m/l, im curious to see should this movement mature what the message becomes, because income inequality isnt really the problem, its a symptom

man these guys sure did shut down wall street! on a saturday no less! tremble brokers tremble!

^always the best look for the elite left

iatee pretty much otm from what i can tell

that's a great zing balls you should consider posting it in some online newspaper comment sections, it'll get a bunch of 'like's

maybe i'll go protest some business while it's closed and wonder why i don't get any results.

tbf this probably will be more effective than wisconsin.

tbf they have also been there during business hours

maybe i'll go protest some business while it's closed and wonder why i don't get any results.

throw a few rocks thru the windows while you're there, for best results during non-business hours.

less effective than tea party i'd guess though.

B-b-but the Masters of the Universe work like 700 hours a week! THEY NEVER STOP SAVING OUR ECONOMY.

balls otm, markets should be open on a sunday, and a saturday too

you know what traders are doing over in china while american traders are not trading on a sunday? trading and making money

they never stop using the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

less effective than tea party i'd guess though.

― balls, Sunday, October 2, 2011 11:34 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah been think abt like how can we do a lefty tea party, now thatd be some shit

srsly tho does anyone know what this is in reference to?

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

From this snarky New York Times piece on Occupy Wall Street, the most tedious zing:

One day, a trader on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, Adam Sarzen, a decade or so older than many of the protesters, came to Zuccotti Park seemingly just to shake his head. “Look at these kids, sitting here with their Apple computers,” he said. “Apple, one of the biggest monopolies in the world. It trades at $400 a share. Do they even know that?”

Y'see, they say they hate Wall Street and yet they use products made by companies whose shares are traded on Wall Street, and they probably DON'T EVEN KNOW that Apple is a big company. They should be growing their own organic computers. The writer seems to think that this is such a logical death blow that she makes this her final paragraph.

persuade ppl to vote in large enough numbers that politicians actually take you seriously? ie. not wisconsin.

lmao http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/Home/article/ny-13.htm?TB_iframe=true&height=580&width=850

it seems p retarded to judge this on the basis of 'effectiveness' or 'seriousness'

they prob drink corporate water

they never stop using the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press

lol srsly?

I was joking/paraphrasing from that list

it is pretty retarded to hope the left in america could ever be 'effective' or 'serious'.

might as well just kill ourselves now

it is pretty retarded to hope the left in america could ever be 'effective' or 'serious'.

holding debt ceiling hostage vs radiohead concert rumours.

both of these things are a legitimate threat to our democracy

the right's pretty serious crut! and effective enough at accomplishing their goals for my tastes.

yes the tea party is deadly serious

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/U/moran.jpg

if only disgust and despair were as potent motivators as ignorance and greed

the right's pretty serious crut! and effective enough at accomplishing their goals for my tastes.

― balls, Sunday, October 2, 2011 11:47 AM (3 minutes ago)

yep & if history tells us anything it's that it'll be like that...forever

http://i.imgur.com/wc2Wp.png

yeah no way disgust or despair motivates any of the tea party nuts.

glad that our disgust and despair is finding an effective outlet through posting on the internet

hey it's a sunday wall street's closed

lol devito. people have been searching for a leader from the left and the right... they didn't think to look down

Ignoring balls' disgust and despair for a moment, this feels like the first stages in an experiment to see what you can achieve without the usual apparatus of protest, ie spokespeople, hierarchy, lists of demands, clear aims. It's similar in that respect to the indignados in Spain or the protesters in Greece. They don't have clear demands because they don't have answers to the economic mess (who does?) so they're venting frustration in this diffuse, ultra-democratic, sometimes contradictory way.

I like Matt Stoller's description

What these people are doing is building, for lack of a better word, a church of dissent. It’s not a march, though marches are spinning off of the campground. It’s not even a protest, really. It is a group of people, gathered together, to create a public space seeking meaning in their culture. They are asserting, together, to each other and to themselves, “we matter”. …I don’t think anyone knows where and how this ends, or if it does.… But perhaps success and failure isn’t the right way to think about what’s going on in downtown New York, any more than thinking about a church as successful or failed based on its political objectives is the right way to think about how those in the pews satisfy their thirst for spiritual vigor. What these people have found in themselves, and created for each other, is meaning.

Glenn Greenwald's wrong that the only criticisms are coming from mainstream Democrats and smug NYT reporters - Marxists find it wishy-washy too. It may not work. Maybe you can't do away with strong leader-orators and unambiguous objectives. Maybe this is impotence masquerading as rebellion. But it's been happening in Europe and now that it's come to Wall Street it feels like that's where the left-wing energy's going to be for a while.

yeah no way disgust or despair motivates any of the tea party nuts.

'even dave koch gets scared'

lol devito. people have been searching for a leader from the left and the right... they didn't think to look down

― great zing-balls (crüt), Sunday, October 2, 2011 11:54 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

lmao

holding debt ceiling hostage vs radiohead concert rumours.

Man, cannot believe that a bunch of people holding a protest are not as effective at policy goals as a bunch of recalcitrant elected officials. What's this world coming to?

they don't have answers to the economic mess (who does?)

― Science, you guys. Science. (DL), Sunday, October 2, 2011 11:55 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

oh me!

no true leftist kind of thing emerging where if you don't think the occupation is the shit, you're really an elitist/mainstream dem. but if history has taught us anything, it's that leftists never agree about anything.

xp OK, in 100 words or fewer. cc the White House, the EU and the IMF.

stimulus, tax the rich, cut military spending, increase social spending

Nah bro skip those and go straight to the Bilderberg Group.

I am interested in the question of how do you regulate wallstreet - the SEC is the textbook definition of agency capture and they couldn't even get dodds-franks through on the back of the 07 crash without defanging it

dayo why regulate wall street when it's so much more fun to OCCUPY it?

can't we do both?

lol devito. people have been searching for a leader from the left and the right... they didn't think to look down

i'd rally around devito if he'd dress-up like the penguin from batman-2 and run for president.

or maybe mayor of nyc (gotham).

giuliani?

xp Mordy's right about the "no true leftist" thing. Greenwald's a prime culprit here. In his piece about negative coverage of OWS he also brings in Wikileaks as something else that true leftists should support, when there are many reasons not to endorse the behaviour of a reckless narcissist even if you support the principle. (In fact Assange's implosion is one of the better arguments in favour of this leaderless form of protest.) It's an uncertain time and this is an unfamiliar tactic and it's ludicrous to argue that proper leftists should lean one way or another. Zoller's ambivalence strikes me as far more honest.

nice piece in the nation this week arguing trade imbalance root of all current woes. it would take 3 miracles (obama reelected, dems retake house, dems hold senate) for another (actual) stimulus bill to pass and even then i wouldn't bank on it considering how many more wobblies there are now compared to 09 and how much keynes has been 'discredited' according to the cw.

I am interested in the question of how do you regulate wallstreet - the SEC is the textbook definition of agency capture and they couldn't even get dodds-franks through on the back of the 07 crash without defanging it

― dayo, Sunday, October 2, 2011 12:02 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

imho one of the things that allows the government to be so unresponsive to the wishes of voters is the ability of all osrt of people w/all sorts of motivations to block legislation via the filibuster the committee system bicameral legislature the senate the presidency etc creating this situation where people are unclear whos fault things are and theres this rolling #kickthebastardsout malaise that doesnt really ever resolve itself letting al sorts of sleazy operators hang around and do their thing /mattyglesias

but we live in a democracy where the will of the people is carried out through their representatives

would love to think that dems might be even 50% as confrontational and obstructionist in the face of perry white house-tea party house-gop senate but wouldn't hold my breath.

if the protestors started chanting END THE FILIBUSTER! END THE FILIBUSTER! id be all #OHHELLYEAH lol

the composition of the democratic party can't be compared to the composition of the republican party balls.

"republican party balls" is a great phrase

republican party balls

my biggest problems w/ this are the adbustersy name and the fact that the organizational structure assumes you don't have a 9-5.

ultimately I don't think we should be waiting for the 'perfect financial protest movement' because it's prob not gonna come and we have to accept that a majority of people on the hard left don't have sophisticated arguments about derivatives regulation. and the ones who do aren't the goofy activist types. as I said before, this is far from perfect but if the media is talking about this instead of bullshit about solyndra or whatever, I think it's a 'success', even if it doesn't lead to something tangible. media coverage is a good in itself.

the organizational structure assumes you don't have a 9-5.

like I said in the other thread that on a certain level this is a youth unemployment protest movement and people are only sorta aware of this

feel like everyone should be cool and not get all upset if people want to clown the protesters

but who are you really clowning...

#lyfe

ok but new rule any clowning of protesters must include a & specific and personal insult of iatee bc iatee is one of them

otm

okay I have to go, gotta occupy some shit

#occupybrunch

hay nice culturejamming, fag #iatee

turns out ice cr?m is The Man we must depose

was Abbie Hoffman "taken seriously" btw?

"democratic party balls" is just an oxymoron, of course

Kristoff in the NY Times offers his support, but doesn't say how to turn the below into chantable slogans

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/opinion/sunday/kristof-the-bankers-and-the-revolutionaries.html?src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

So for those who want to channel their amorphous frustration into practical demands, here are several specific suggestions:

¶Impose a financial transactions tax. This would be a modest tax on financial trades, modeled on the suggestions of James Tobin, an American economist who won a Nobel Prize. The aim is in part to dampen speculative trading that creates dangerous volatility. Europe is moving toward a financial transactions tax, but the Obama administration is resisting — a reflection of its deference to Wall Street.

¶Close the “carried interest” and “founders’ stock” loopholes, which may be the most unconscionable tax breaks in America. They allow our wealthiest citizens to pay very low tax rates by pretending that their labor compensation is a capital gain.

¶Protect big banks from themselves. This means moving ahead with Basel III capital requirements and adopting the Volcker Rule to limit banks’ ability to engage in risky and speculative investments. Another sensible proposal, embraced by President Obama and a number of international experts, is the bank tax. This could be based on an institution’s size and leverage, so that bankers could pay for their cleanups — the finance equivalent of a pollution tax.

i don't think it's on the protestors to demand any of those things

i can't think of more effective messaging than demanding "moving ahead with Basel III capital requirements and adopting the Volcker Rule to limit banks' ability to engage in risky and speculative investments"

has quite a ring to it, doesn't it?

Marxists find it wishy-washy too.

ya really wanna listen to American Marxists re a recipe for success

Abbie Hoffman was a manic depressive doosh who damaged the left more than he helped it.

What about forgiving student loan debt? I'm not sure about that one. I mean, if I'd spent 20+years paying off my student loans I'd be pissed if a bunch of people just got a free pass out of theirs.

But overall this is really interesting and I'm going to check it out today.

Man if you've lost the Marxists there's no hope.

balls' comparison b/w this & the tea party falls apart for various reasons, most of them rather obvious, but anyway i think these protests can be effective & important w/o having their "platform"/"movement" funded by various billionaires and co-opted by politicians looking for an way into the house of representatives

yeah part of my skepticism as to the effectiveness of this shit is that like historically protest movements have needed to be able to explicitly point out the injustice of the law via breaking that law, sitting down at a lunch counter, making salt, occupying a square in a country where youre not allowed to do that

which is not to say it cant be helpful as part of some media strategy or w/e tf but then like lol 'occupy wall st'

shd get a couple thousand ppl to do a sit in at the nyse

Which Marxists are wishy-washy about it, though? (I'm guessing academic Marxists rather than, you know, actual activists).

my boss thinks they should plant a bomb in front of goldman sachs

UH

that would get some attention

u should write a blogg post abt that max

i think thats what he wants me to do

i think hes coming at it from an "eastern european" perspective

*gawks*

get those search engines humming

think of the SEO opportunities

that idea is literally the bomb

posts that make you hate yourself

What does Terry Eagleton think?

lol, JP Morgan Chase with the twirly mustache

http://digg.com/news/world_news/jp_morgan_chase_donates_4_6_million_to_nypd_to_deter_occupywallstreet

"they should plant a bomb."
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00110/Pg-02-gawker-main-c_110310t.jpg

I wish they'd drop the whole debt=slavery bit; it's as dumb as the Tea Party's taxes=slavery. As I recall it slavery is when you were kidnapped, forced to work in awful conditions, not paid, not allowed to leave.

http://cdn.hollywoodgrind.com/images/2008/8/prince-slave.jpg

Man, check out his hair dye!

    V
SLAE

gdamn it

lol <3 prince

That's one rich slave!

watch this--this video from the brooklyn bridge helps explain how 700+ people were arrested. the cops let the protesters onto the roadway, and don't stop them until they barricade them halfway up, and then the arrests start to happen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fockzr7rXys

the solution to onerous student loan debt is very simple: just treat student loans like any other non-secured debt and make them more easily dischargeable in bankruptcy. not only is this approach not "radical," it was the law before 1997.

also, American academic "Marxists" are the most useless people on the planet.

only trust Slovenian Marxists

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/10/why_did_the_new_1.php

What about forgiving student loan debt? I'm not sure about that one. I mean, if I'd spent 20+years paying off my student loans I'd be pissed if a bunch of people just got a free pass out of theirs.

there was a lot less student loan debt 20+ years ago.

also: 20+ years ago, investment income didn't receive as ridiculously favorable tax treatment as it does now.

discharging debt is not the same as getting a free pass

it would depend on how they discharged it. If it were treated like other types of debt forgiveness, it would be taxable income to the borrower in the year it was forgiven.

i understand someone who actually paid off student loan debt over 20+ years being resentful if others got a "free pass" ... but you could extend that logic to bankruptcy in general (and thereby eviscerate that form of relief altogether). after all, why shouldn't someone who pays off a big credit card debt feel resentful if another debtor gets some or all of his credit card discharged in bankruptcy?

fuck these bankruptcy freeriders imo -- they should all be in debtors prison until kin can bail them out

also, i'm not that bothered that the protestors don't have a full-blown manifesto or plan of legislation that they'd like changed or (excellent) ideas like what Nick Kristoff proposed or whatever. in fact, at this point i'd be suspicious if a "spontaneous" protest actually had a full-blown manifesto at all.

cRaSh tHe SyStEm MaAANNNN!!! I like that people are venting their frustration ... it's probably good to have some safety valve for emotions involving social problems.

That's useful I think, but it'd be disheartening if this were all there was to people fighting these issues. Of course there needs to be a more organized, more focused campaign to fight for greater income equality and, well, a more humane society, but that's a humungous battle... and involves a greater degree of work, dedication, and sacrifice than munching on vegan burritos while watching a white guy with dreadlocks juggle fire on a unicycle. And it's sad to think if these things can even be accomplished at all considering the concentrations of power, media, political system, etc...

wow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponging-house

pay up... or be sponged!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UpuvKIBC3I

I hear the protest organizers are bringing in this guy to "cleanse" Wall Street of it's history of evil. Not exactly Radiohead, but I think it'll do.

is this the left wing version of protest signs with typos?

the activist left has hippie drum circles, the activist right has "homescholers for Perry"

activist left also has giant protest puppets

both sides get ron paul supporters

yeah the anti-fed stuff is the most embarrassing aspect, luckily it's a small % of people

Respectfully disappointed with some of the doubts expressed above, tbh. U all smart people entitled to your opinions but I fully support these protests and am extremely grateful to those participating. Use of "hippies" and "maaaaN" etc. partic lame, sorry.

^ this

what adamrl said

I'm not sure I believe in the power of protest within our current system, but I wholeheartedly support people trying.

I was just down there. I agree with the overall sentiment of the thing but it's pretty lame and didn't give me any hope it'll have an effect. Hope to be proven wrong. Now just feeling like more than ever we need a third party.

That said, there's no excuse for the way some of the police have been behaving, or yesterday's kettling and arrests on the Brooklyn Bridge. The protest is peaceful. As far as these things go, practically sedate.

Too bad those dipshit 9/11 truthers have to be there though.

I stand by my use of "like, we're fightin the good fight here, maaan". If only the collective odor of a thousand patchouli-reeking smocks could turn the tides of the world, but I guess I'm one of those cynical, burned-out idealists.

Good point. The union airline pilots who recently participated in the protests totally reeked of patchouli.

eh just stfu spectrum

Well, 1) I think the pilots had their own, independent protest, and 2) the Occupy Wallstreet dudes could learn a few things from them. Put on a nice suit, get a haircut, think about bathing, and organize yourselves top-down style with a legislative agenda, etc.

I support the cause for a more progressive society, I'm a big ole' smelly lefty, and I'm glad people are doing ***something***, but it's a little embarrassing seeing people speaking about some of the things I care about, but in a half-assed way, and frankly looking like they're still waking out of a malnourished vegan dream.

Respectfully disappointed with some of the doubts expressed above, tbh. U all smart people entitled to your opinions but I fully support these protests and am extremely grateful to those participating. Use of "hippies" and "maaaaN" etc. partic lame, sorry.

otm

people always weighing in about what's wrong with protestors sound like alex p. keaton, real great look there

like maybe stop recycling "lol dirty hippie!" stuff from 20+ year old episodes of the Young Ones

spectrum's bringing a lot to the table here

Protests are by their nature inchoate. I wasn't one of those liberals who picked on Tea Party acolytes wearing tri-cornered hats. What matters most -- at this stage -- is a vague but genuine sense of solidarity ("What these people are doing is evil").

Left-wing protest does not have to = hippy dippies performing a dramatic reinterpretation of the 2008 crash using silhouettes of interpretive dancers. That's just our mind stuck in a certain era, or my mind on drugs.

I can believe in progressive politics and still feel weird about what constitutes these events. It's serious shit, and should be treated with a certain degree of respect. Otherwise, how's anyone going to respect you? Using human nature and society's institutions to your advantage goes a lot further than tofu burgers and barefoot frisbee 4 freedom games.

Like, I completely agree about the solidarity aspect, but why not show it visually? Showing a well-organized, centralized people with a focused grievance is a lot more threatening than people who look like they're at a party.

republicans are pretty rarely embarrassed by inarticulate right-wing tea-party types

I feel a modicum of sympathy towards your position because my skepticism of crowds and mass movements means I'd likely never join movements like these, but, c'mon, man.

Bucky Larson: Born to Be a Star would have been a much better movie if it were more like The Godfather

republicans are pretty rarely embarrassed by inarticulate right-wing tea-party types

well, not publicly anyway ... still OTM.

seriously, we need to adhere to a "no enemies to the left" principle. stop worrying what Joe and Jane Sixpack think about so-called "dirty hippies" (that way leads to Gabbnebism, and look at where that's gotten us).

(and i'm someone who got turned off to Nader et. al in 2000 b/c of the "dirty hippies" element amongst his supporters -- shit's changed, and all that)

Well, conservatives have less barriers to having their ideas heard than people on the left in this country, for many reasons. That puts left-leaning ideas at a natural disadvantage, which means extra work needs to be done to overcome those barriers and be heard or taken seriously. It's not like the right-wing and left-wing are on equal grounds in this country. I make hippy jokes because first, they're fun, and second it's satirizing general public opinion... that exists, that needs to be understood, and needs to be maneuvered around. But what's my opinion, I'm merely one internet blowhard.

but together, you are legion.

btw the left doesn't have a monopoly on patchouli.

i have never been in a mansion or bank that reeked of the stuff.

Left-wing protest does not have to = hippy dippies performing a dramatic reinterpretation of the 2008 crash using silhouettes of interpretive dancers.

I do love it when people actually hit all the received-wisdom bases. tell me, if you have a moment, what you know about interpretative dance - how it differs from other modern schools of dance, maybe some protests in which it's figured prominently in recent months or years, what its role is in protest. please do this off the dome though instead of by googling - thanks

personally, i think that it's very encouraging that the "dirty hippies" (for lack of a better word) have actually found an issue that will resonate with the non-dirty hippies/non-Teabags. and i really think that enough people will put up with the stench of patchouli b/c how shit the economy is, how shameless the Big Banks/hedge funds have been, how (willfully?) inept Obama et. al. have been, etc. i don't even care about "establishment liberal" carping -- limousine liberalism is despised about as much amongst the salt-of-the-earth types as smelly hippyness is.

Mark Ruffalo on Spectrum's case: "When people critique this movement and say spurious things about the protesters' clothes or their jobs or the general way they look, they are showing how shallow we have become as a nation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/02/occupy-wall-street-99-per-cent

chris christie is fat btw

if you want to know how shallow we have become as a nation, all you have to do is watch tv for like 2 minutes.

tv was deeper before flat screens

Occupy Jersey Shore

I'm protesting for more otm aero posts itt.

Ditto.

Patchouli stocks down 150 percent, according to Nikkei.

moveon's holding a virtual march on wall st. i'm sure i'll see everyone here down at the front. together we can change the world.

My aunt who was arrested at the '68 convention is at this.

"Rebuild the Dream" e-mail:

So this Wednesday, we're joining with MoveOn, and labor and community groups in New York for a massive march down to the Occupy Wall Street encampment. And for those who can't make it to New York, we're also holding a huge online "Virtual March on Wall Street" in solidarity with the brave protesters in New York.

smh

my favorite grousing about this so far was in the comments section of an article written by a woman who got pepper-sprayed by police. buncha old-school leftist archie bunkers griping about how people needed to buck up and expect this shit at protests and how nobody boo-hooed when they had the hoses turned on them back in the good ol' days. we EXPECTED the pigs to be pigs back then, maaaan.

though i agree with aero that the young people itt shitting on this are a way worse look.

look at you -- already using "young people" without irony

i was old when i was young.

and as much as i'm rmde above i do think that a sustained effort like this (although are they not doing this again til wednesday? why? do they not know what 'occupy' means?) could at least drive home the point to these ppl that america still hates them and america will always hate them. instilling a sense of shame or at least defensiveness on wall st. would be a net plus, and i think an achievable goal - i can remember stories of traders circa 2009 whining about how they were a target, etc.

Re: all the "interpretive dance"lols - I could go into how I actually think the importance of the right kind of incisive theater can actually be the greatest articulation of any oppositional movement, but I think you probably already think this if you are anywhere near inclined to agree with me. That is theater as something that will ris the inevitability of failure because it simply has to do so, Sisyphus OTM. This is image creation, merely a vernacular strand of the type many of us spend endless hours obsessing over on these very pages.

sorry, poorly typed but you get what I am saying

that plus maybe an actual public inquiry into why cops always overreact at lefty protests but seemingly never at righty protests (could be wrong here, provide links if so) would be worthwhile. not really buying 'crowd of elderly hippies and trust fund hipsters inherently more violent/disruptive than crowd of angry rednecks and would-be john gaults'.

xpost

i have no idea what you're trying to say

although are they not doing this again til wednesday? why? do they not know what 'occupy' means?)

The "occupy" folks are occupying, the moveon.org and other groups are joining them just on Wednesday

ok, makes more sense!

I do love it when people actually hit all the received-wisdom bases. tell me, if you have a moment, what you know about interpretative dance - how it differs from other modern schools of dance, maybe some protests in which it's figured prominently in recent months or years, what its role is in protest. please do this off the dome though instead of by googling - thanks

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, October 2, 2011 7:29 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark

I'm pretty sure interpretive dance is where a guy with a blonde or light-brown afro dresses in a black leotard and pretends he's a burrito or something like that. This is opposed to poetry slam dancing where you "throw down" while your partner rhymes about how the "thin blue line" is strangling him, all against a bare brick wall backdrop. And finally, there's the panglobal agape dance, which combines the dances of all the indigenous cultures on earth into a single piece to show how all of earth's peoples are like, the same people -- only one person has performed it and lived, iirc.

ok i'm pro moveon (generally) but i'm confused as to why they can't get around to cyberjoining them until wednesday.

i'm curious what aerosmith's take on interpretive dance role in protest is and if he thinks the lack of it in the tea party movement might be why they were so unsuccessful in taking over the house and hijacking the national agenda.

spectrum you're in danger of blowing your cover

r.i.p. banaka

i do wonder what luriqua thinks about Occupy Wall Street.

he's there trying to score PCP

Just found the webpage for Portland's version of this:

http://occupyportland.org/

Kinda wish they would enforce a dress code for this kinda thing. Have everyone dress like straights, make it a "Mad Men" cosplay event or something. "HEY YOU IDIOTS, SHOW UP DRESSED AS IF YOU WERE MARCHING WITH DR. KING."

keep portland occupied

burt stanton you still live in nyc? and you aren't a hippy right? you know a pretty easy way that you could at this point make this exactly 1/1335th less-hippyish?

wanna do my part who's in for OCCUPY HELENA pm me

Wasn't Sherilyn Fenn in that?

She played a large cardboard box in which an eccentric office manager(Julian Sands) stuffed paper clips and staplers.

man all these smell hippies and their enforcers on ilx sure cant take a joke, need to mellow out smoke dank bud maybe groove w/some devil stix for a while

http://www.nostalgiccandy.com/ProductImages/pixy_stix_bulk2.jpg

that reminds me, I did see someone buy drugs today

I mean I'm not 100% on that but there was some weird fumbling w/ money and the 'I'm buying drugs' face

was it me?

(joekz, joekz)

are you a strange looking 40 y/o in a white suit

ppl who think #occupywallstreet is a good idea are kind to buy drugs, story at 11

are you a strange looking 40 y/o in a white suit

― iatee, Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:13 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

duh

am i tom wolfe in the 70s?

bongfire of the vanities

am i tom wolfe in the 70s?

― Mordy, Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:50 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark

or tom wolfe in his 70s

tom wolfe in his 70s was 40 y/o?

he looked it.

ok i'm pro moveon (generally) but i'm confused as to why they can't get around to cyberjoining them until wednesday.

― balls, Monday, 3 October

Dude, read what I posted above again:

"Rebuild the Dream" e-mail:

So this Wednesday, we're joining with MoveOn, and labor and community groups in New York for a massive march down to the Occupy Wall Street encampment. And for those who can't make it to New York, we're also holding a huge online "Virtual March on Wall Street" in solidarity with the brave protesters in New York.

― curmudgeon, Sunday, October 2, 2011 11:56 PM

Rebuild the Dream is Van Jones' group and they and the others including Moveon.org are doing a special MARCH to the encampment on Wednesday, so the cyberjoining is for that Wednesday MARCH.

what does that cyberjoining entail that they have to wait til wednesday? i can sorta understand why they're waiting til wednesday to actually join them (well not really but i do understand it take some ppl some time to get their shit together), i don't understand why the wait til wednesday to cyberjoin them? why not cyberjoin them now? wtf does cyberjoin mean? donating more money to elizabeth warren (down w/ this)? clicking 'like' on facebook? is this some world of warcraft thing?

tbh I have no idea either but the $ and things donated from around the world (and space loaned out by people in nyc) are actually a huge reason this works so well. if you're some unemployed 20-something at this thing you can eat pretty well, get your laundry done, go to some revolutionary poetry class during the day...it's like a small communist country and the rest of the world is the soviet union funneling money to it so it keeps going

http://www.thenation.com/blog/163749/how-support-occupy-wall-street

it's funny how small it really is tho, if 500 college republicans showed up dressed as hippies they could do some hilarious things

cyberjoining means they're all calling and emailing their representatives on the same day so that the lines and inboxes jam up. it's on google.

what if yr rep already wants the fed destroyed and opposed tarp and any other bank bailouts? ie is a tea partier?

you're overthinking this

why didn't this happen before dodd-frank got defanged? is the feeling that the political enviroment is more ripe for wall street regulation now?

i think...the feeling is...a lot of people are unemployed and disillusioned and have some spare time

and don't see things getting better anytime in the near future, and are taking their anger out on banks - whether strengthening financial regulations will help near-term unemployment is not likely but hey, fuck wall street, i'm cool w/ this

It's not just the banks/regulation, it's the 99%/1% wealth gap. Not hard to understand how Wall Street can be shorthand for that 1%.

yeah, I mean in the end it didn't happen until now because it didn't happen until now. but I think you can name some factors

a. you're not gonna get people to sleep outside for 20 days when dems control congress and new financial regulation is passed but isn't strong enough. most people don't understand the details. complicated things are complicated. most people in congress don't understand the details.
b. recession officially 'not going away' at this point
c. wall street as shameless as ever but now in the news on a daily basis. goldman sachs types were getting seven figure bonuses in 2005 too, you just didn't see it on the front page. the same page as the unemployment figure.

hoping that the homeless middle class start showing up to these things in droves.

I guess there is a national date on the 6th? really hoping the locals here go for Bank Of America or some such instead of the legally designated protest area.

I can't really stay on threads like this because ILX is, in spite of its left-of-center fantasies, really aggro and hostile towards anything even slightly left (or right, fwiw) of center in the real world.

cue Minor Threat's "In My Eyes"

I did think it was adorable when the list of unions coming out for the protests included the pilots, the Teamsters, transit workers... and the IWW. Much love to the Wobblies, but that's a symbolic organization at best.

I'm surprised that between BoA's shitty publicity lately plus the debit card fee they're introducing, no one has started a national boycott of BoA products. The problem is that you'd have to send people to another Megabank for the most part, but a genuine consumer boycott would be more effective than occupying Wall Street (at least so far).

yeah they actually had pretty perfect timing w/ that shit. it's entering the narrative in ways...the protest's finances are all at a credit union and they mention credit union stuff from time to time.

>Much love to the Wobblies, but that's a symbolic organization at best.

They're an important symbol though

re: BoA in Boston

http://news.yahoo.com/dozens-arrested-bank-america-offices-091130151.html

BOSTON (AP) — Police have arrested two dozen protesters for trespassing during a demonstration against Bank of America's foreclosure practices at the banking giant's offices in downtown Boston.

The Boston Herald reports (http://bit.ly/ohHrLa ) that the event was an act of civil disobedience that the organizers intended to send the message that the lender's practices were unfair.

"They wanted to be arrested, and we obliged," Boston police Commissioner Edward F. Davis told the newspaper.

Organizers say about 3,000 people joined the protest. Bank of America spokesman T.J. Crawford dismissed the demonstration as a publicity stunt.

There was no mention of Bank of America's planned debit card fees.

was sort of hoping that this thread could be kept to news posts. not surprised the bulk of the posts are from cynics, after the last ten years, I understand it, but... c'mon you guys, when Chase is donating $4.6 million to the NYPD, it is a clear sign that these protests are already being taken seriously so the only thing your posts signify to me (with all due respect) is that you should stop typing and start reading

& sleeve, aerosmith, adam, morbius, thank you for your posts

"was sort of hoping that this thread could be kept to news posts... unless you agree w/ me, then thanks for your posts"

the time for conversation is drawing to a close

in any event, i wouldn't be surprised if BoA ends up dropping this debit card fee, or at least dropping it and finding out a way to gouge $5 a month in a more secretive fashion

somehow it failed to get out that like a week or two weeks before this debit card thing got out, they announced that they'd be charging $12 a month to have a checking account there unless your "average monthly balance" was greater than $1,500

so yeah, finding a new bank is added to my shit to do list

prob gonna have to start a thread about it actually cuz i have no idea what's a "good" bank

and by "announced" i mean that they sent letters to customers

>and by "announced" i mean that they sent letters to customers

don't forget what they pulled in april

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/04/27/bank-of-americas-new-credit-card-penalty-interest-rate-is-nearl/

Bank of America's New Credit Card Penalty Interest Rate Is Nearly 30%

miss one payment, one day late -- your interest rate jumps to 30%

yeah good luck finding a major bank that's not gonna reintroduce fees for small checking accounts, debit cards, etc. the money the banks can't make anymore from gouging fees from small businesses, tricking poor ppl w/ free checking accounts, etc they're definitely gonna make up somewhere else.

the stupid thing really is that being an actual customer of the bank can be quite convenient a lot of the time that they could probably get away with some shit of this nature, but they're really just going all in with the "we're just brazenly trying to pillage you for some reason at this point" thing in a way that seems -- i think maybe quite obviously at this point, tho i guess time will tell -- like really bad business

there are many reasons why i don't want to change banks, but it almost seems like a moral obligation at this point

Just found the webpage for Portland's version of this:

http://occupyportland.org/

i will... not be attending this.

"was sort of hoping that this thread could be kept to news posts... unless you agree w/ me, then thanks for your posts"

― yung huma (J0rdan S.), Monday, October 3, 2011 2:20 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

loll

the time for conversation is drawing to a close

― Milton Parker, Monday, October 3, 2011 2:21 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/0iIIj.jpg

http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/upper-class-warfare.gif

i hope this is not just a news thread, i think the discussion is valuable

when chase told me that they wouldnt give me frequent flyer miles on my debit card earlier this year (#acknowledgmentofprivilege) they explicitly blamed dodd-frank in a hilariously ott way in their letter

takes mental note of all ppl mocking protesters

Thinking of burning my BoA credit card and mailing the charred pieces to a rep as a symbolic gesture.

i support these guys in spirit, even if they don't have any clear aims or wear mockable clothing.

but they do wear mockable clothing!

i just went into (odious) citibank, and the reps were really nice and converted my accts into a fee-free student acct for a period of one year (and told me to come back in a year to see abt. further extension), and commiserated abt. the stupid fees. they said that the last few weeks have been pretty nasty; they've been hemorrhaging customers left and right.

aerosmith's "alex p keaton" line devastatingly otm

yeah the big banks dont really give a shit abt poor retail customers especially now that their debt card fees have been limited via congress - smaller banks maybe will pick up the slack idk

aerosmith's "alex p keaton" line devastatingly otm

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, October 3, 2011 9:43 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

alex p keaton was on family ties, youre thinking of steven tyler

http://dcist.com/upload/2011/10/2011_1002_occupy2.jpg?211

<3 occ wall st ppl but i lol'd irl @ this tbh

So on CNN this morning the reporter very quickly discussed how police arrested protesters who occupied the Brooklyn Bridge (with no detail re the allegations that the police trapped the protesters) and then she focussed on the fact that as she was filming down there someone threw a little dog behind her in the air about 6 feet high. I couldn't tell whether the dog landed on his/her feet or was caught by someone else. The reporter concluded "these protestors may be for peace, love and understanding but they weren't very nice to that dog." Ugh.

nerds http://gawker.com/5846013/hey-occupy-wall-street-dressing-up-like-zombies-is-dumb

CNN hits that exact midpoint between lol, smdh, and wtf more often than any cultural force I can think of at the moment

http://www.occupytogether.org/

this site is trying to list events happening all over.

The moveon. emails do not explain the details for the virtual march on Wednesday (other than to say it is designed for those who can't join them in NYC as they and other group march to the encampment site and

Join the Virtual March on Wall Street this Wednesday, October 5, to show your support for the Occupy Wall Street movement!
First thing Wednesday morning, we'll send the instructions for participating online

Not sure if this is linked here already (or elsewhere), but it makes for some interesting reading:

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

Of course, I can imagine Rush Limbaugh or whoever going on about what a bunch of whiners and losers, etc. And so far it's heavily concentrated in people with college degrees, student loan debt, etc. But even at that, pretty compelling imo.

yeah the "99%" narrative is one of the better things that's coming out of this IMO.

imho we are the 99% is p good rhetoric if not like totally accurate (top 5-10% are p bad too)

Village Voice on the company you get to keep if lol! hippies! is yr deal

in special bonus for me, the woman on the right of the picture (carrying a sign that says WAKE NEW..something? idk) is a friend of mine and I was completely stoked to see her, she is awesome!

WAKE NEWT

it's actually the top 1% of the top 1% that have seen the most explosive additions to their mountains of wealth (it's that tippy-top category that has dragged the entire top 1% up so high) but it's a bit harder to get that into a soundbite

tho most rich people i know prob generally agree w/the protestors #anecdata

yeah tracer i wasnt talkin abt necessarily whos getting the money but iirc studies have shown the most hardcore supporters of fuck the poor whats mine is mine type sentiment are not the super rich but the affluent

sorta reminds me of a david cross quote:

A protest would be shown on the news and treated like it was a minor annoyance, like a bad storm or an outbreak of flu. And while there were plenty of 'regular' folks from all over the world who trekked to wherever because they felt it was important for their voices to be heard, it was usually only the radical stereotypes who got shown on TV because of, not in spite of, their inane, childish hippie outfits. Dressing up (inexplicably) like a robot wearing a multicoloured afro wig, standing on stilts and yelling that Bush is a Nazi at scared and disgusted middle-aged tourists only makes the already severe polarisation (not to mention the fierce anti-intellectualism) in this country even more irreversible.

xxxxxxp

this is pretty much getting the 'class warfare' (whatever you want to call it, im cool w/ that term tho) ball rolling. is it a total coincidence this picked up around the same time as Buffett tax was in the news? sometimes things are sorta just in the air. if 99% catches on and becomes a normalized part of political dialogue this thing will have accomplished something fairly big. don't have to look at 'accomplishments/goals/etc' beyond that.

^^^ Exactly, which is why you get guys like Rich LOLry, who are in the top 2% (i.e., makes more than $250k per year) constantly tripping over their own dicks.

xp to ice cr?am

ice cr?m i think particularly of frank bascombe's partner at the real estate agency in richard ford's "independence day"

^^^ Exactly, which is why you get guys like Rich LOLry, who are in the top 2% (i.e., makes more than $250k per year) constantly tripping over their own dicks.

xp to ice cr?am

― You people are supposed to be some kind of music culture intelligentsi (Phil D.), Monday, October 3, 2011 10:36 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^otfm

theres are people richer than you, you still have to consider money, therefor you are not rich - this delusion is vv common

which goes hand in hand with the "you can't be poor, you have a refrigerator AND a television!" thing peddled by fox etc

i do think its prob worthwhile for americans to consider their wealth relative to global rather than american norms, but that doesnt at all change the fact that this countrys relationship to wealth is shortsighted wildly out of whack

has this been linked? "untraceable" twitter-style messaging for protests -

http://www.nydailynews.com/tech_guide/2011/09/28/2011-09-28_occupy_wall_street_protesters_in_new_york_use_iphone_android_app_vibe_to_communi.html#ixzz1ZLj0GNhW

seems like could be hijacked pretty easily?

when the revolution comes, Rich LOLry will sell us the joekz that we hang him with

many aspects of this could be, esp w/ the type of people who show up. as I mentioned earlier wrt collge republicans or whatever. xp

p sweet technology regardless

occupy bathroom

#BiebsStayOutOfPeru

^ lol

Village Voice on the company you get to keep if lol! hippies! is yr deal

good grief. i used to write a lot for the Village Voice (i covered the 2004 RNC protests in NYC for the Voice) but that article is downright unreadable

a robot wearing a multicoloured afro wig, standing on stilts and yelling that Bush is a Nazi

The right's lunatic fringe has definitely helped shift the perception of what the "center" is, think the left needs it too.

I can see where David Cross is coming from but often it's the "embarrassing" stuff which brings attention to protests, even if it's scornful attention. You can't dictate who protests based on what will play well with people who don't agree with you in the first place. The Tea Party didn't worry about the guys in tricorn hats - it was part of the energy of the movement.

I've been on enough protests to accept that the media is interested in kooks and violence. That's just how it is. Cross seems to believe that if you could just organise the perfect, decent, moderate protest than then you'd get glowing coverage all-round and those middle-aged tourists would be impressed. I don't think so - better to accept the mix you have and see the fringe elements as part of it rather than as a liability.

Bill Maher actually did a funny bit a couple months ago about what the Left Tea Party should endorse. (Teaching gay math, drive-through abortions, etc.)

beheading the rich obv

tbf the tea party is wildly unpopular amongst the non tea party segment of the population

The D Cross thing manifested itself around gay parades a few years ago with some neolib/neocon homos saying the thong and harness people should put on some clothes and not scare the str8s. That didn't play well in "the community."

jesus fuck, press attn on the "embarrassing" shit from the tea party protests (dudes with guns, creepy racey shit, victoria jackson) just made those people more excited and more pissed at their opponents.

feel like people need to take a look at basic definitions of "solidarity" -- always harder for the left because everybody is so different, but come on.

go occupiers.

when you make fun of the stinky stilt robot pamphlet people you make fun of us all

i dont have solidarity w/afro robots, one day they will rule us all

everyday I'm shufflin

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100108713/the-teenage-moralism-of-the-occupy-wall-street-hipsters-almost-makes-me-ashamed-to-be-left-wing/

He's writing for the Telegraph for a reason.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2011/01/Brendan-ONeill.png

You go to class war with the hippies you have...

~think abt it~

orsonwelles_clapping.jpg

that headline even has "hipsters"

moratorium on posting thoughtpieces coming from fucking britain please

where's whiney

#occupysubway

http://www.thenation.com/article/163719/occupy-wall-street-faq

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/bloomberg_occupy_wall_street_is_targeting_people_s.php?ref=fpb

p4reene smote that Bloomie crap on Friday

link?

http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/30/bloombergs_annoying/

disgusting

dude should be thrown out a window imho

http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/topic/occupy-wall-street-2011-10/

volcker rule thing is a stupid trick question cause it's essentially a step back in the direction of glass–steagall.

the time of day when you did this poll and would affect the results considerably

What do you think of Obama?
I believed in him, and he let me down: 40
He’s doing great: 1
I never believed in him: 27
He’s doing the best he can: 22

no that wasn't me

it was Alfred, he's been undercover this whole time

He’s doing great: 1

was timellison at the protest?

Explain how you would fix Wall Street.
"President Elizabeth Warren."

it was Alfred, he's been undercover this whole time

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qyhZ9_eXCHM/SdE3piB3tJI/AAAAAAAAAPA/5mbwQF9LUrs/s400/manchurian-candidate.jpg

"Why don't you pass the time by playing a little Timberlake?"

curtis you don't actually believe 'president elizabeth warren' would change a damn thing do you?

let us not wait for a superwoman

he was quoting someone from the above link xp

yeah ^

I was tacitly ridiculing the idea that president elizabeth warren would change a damn thing

would prob change various things

but balls said it wouldn't in a mocking tone

everything changes things

I can believe it

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l29rmxXNa51qa1iiqo1_500.jpg

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/youre-creating-a-vision-of-the-sort-of-society-you-want-to-have-in-miniature/2011/08/25/gIQAXVg7HL_blog.html

http://jonasmekasfilms.com/images/jonas-on-wall-st-620.jpg

jonas fuckin mekas y'all

http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/topic/occupy-wall-street-2011-10/

volcker rule thing is a stupid trick question cause it's essentially a step back in the direction of glass–steagall.

the time of day when you did this poll and would affect the results considerably

― iatee, Monday, October 3, 2011 1:51 PM (1 hour ago)

yeah this entire thing is stupid *sighs*

it's stupid b/c it's a further attempt to shame/undermine the disaffected protestors

sorry, but nothing can get in the way of a cool infograph

considering how small the number of protesters is wouldn't it be incredibly easy to do an at least approaching scientific poll of the protesters? that was like a 'jay-walking' segment. i know only ppl w/ zero ambition and the laziest of work ethics work in journalism nowadays but still.

i love jonas mekas. he is a national treasure

http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2011/10/02/fifteen-definitions-of-freedom-from-occupywallstreet/

http://rortybomb.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/ows_board1.jpg

"You need air to survive beyond 3 minutes, shelter from bad weather to live 3 hours, water to last 3 days, and food to live past 3 weeks. Very few humans have needs beyond that."

Pretty sure I've been outside in severe downpours more than three hours and not died.

if you only need food every three weeks then surely these people bitching about not having any money for food are mountain/molehill-ing it.

http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2011/10/02/fifteen-definitions-of-freedom-from-occupywallstreet/

― max, Monday, October 3, 2011 4:12 PM (57 minutes ago)

rotary bomb...more like rotary, BOMB WALL STREET #gawker

rotary?

http://theory.colophon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Rorty.jpeg

Ring, ring.

Ack! Ruined!

http://theory.colophon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Rorty.jpeg

considering how small the number of protesters is wouldn't it be incredibly easy to do an at least approaching scientific poll of the protesters? that was like a 'jay-walking' segment. i know only ppl w/ zero ambition and the laziest of work ethics work in journalism nowadays but still.
--balls

the people who are at the park depends on what time it is, what's going on elsewhere, what the weather's like, who's in jail...

I'm there in the evenings at 7 for the 2nd big meeting and I imagine that'd be the best time to take a sample but I doubt that's when they did it.

I suggest people who are interested come at 7 btw

m1ckey aval0n showed up at occupy LA when i was there on saturday. i guess one of the things about participating in a mass protest movement is having to come to terms with standing in solidarity with m1ckey aval0n about something

not a problem if you've never heard of him

don't worry Shakey, i'm sure you'd think he was a douchebag

my boss thinks they should plant a bomb in front of goldman sachs

― max, Sunday, October 2, 2011 1:12 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

hes right

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6171/6164464278_c387d48124.jpg

think abt it

I am looking up.

icey turning into Tom Wolfe

the crowd has sorta normalized over the last few nights, both in size and what kinda people you see. sorta disappointed, was expecting more non-20-somethings to be out by now but I wouldn't be surprised if weds is a turning point.

the direct democratic process is actually interesting to watch / participate in and is getting more efficient, though I'm not sure it would work if 10k people showed up. we spent like an hour debating the sleeping bag purchases and it was weirdly entertaining.

too many people smoke, my lungs feel not great

I found 'atlas shrugged' in the OWS library and put it in the trash #occupyoccupywallstreet

heres a cool thing http://henaashraf.com/2011/09/30/brown-power-at-occupy-wall-street/

I had gone down to Zuccotti Park to see the activist movement firsthand after getting a call from the chief executive of a major bank last week, before nearly 700 people were arrested over the weekend during a demonstration on the Brooklyn Bridge.

“Is this Occupy Wall Street thing a big deal?” the C.E.O. asked me. I didn’t have an answer. “We’re trying to figure out how much we should be worried about all of this,” he continued, clearly concerned. “Is this going to turn into a personal safety problem?”

andrew ross sorkin is on the case http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/10/03/on-wall-street-a-protest-matures/?smid=tw-nytimes&pagewanted=all

I had to review that man's book on the 2008 crisis -- a bore.

As I was leaving, having spoken to scores of protesters, I noticed two of them walking over to the A.T.M. at Bank of America. As much as this group may want to get away from Wall Street and corporate America, it may be trapped by it. In the eyes of these young protesters, until they can unshackle themselves from the system — or perhaps make the system work for them — the sense of unrest is unlikely to go away anytime soon.

HYPOCRITES

i mean, i like the NYT, maybe more than most, but they literally published a story by a reporter who got a call from a wall st executive earnestly asking the NYT to go find out if wall st executives were going to get beat up or shot or trampled by the occupy wall st protestors

I had to review that man's book on the 2008 crisis -- a bore.

― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, October 3, 2011 10:32 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh yeah i watched the HBO docudrama based on that

eh for a blow by blow account of the shit going down it was worthwhile and frequently very funny (how much of that was the telling vs the principle players involved is up to debate). not the first book i'd recommend to anyone on the crisis but after several other books for background and ground level particulars, too big to fail would work as a quick denouement.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/10/5-reasons-why-occupy-wall-street-wont-work/246041/

this guy is consistently the stupidest writer for the atlantic

But it wasn't quick at all. What made the book ponderous was Sorkin's insistence on reminding the reader -- on every page -- that he had the access. Lots of words expended for the sake of "humanizing" Hank Paulson, for example (lots of Diet Coke guzzled).

In the eyes of these young protesters, until they can unshackle themselves from the system — or perhaps make the system work for them — the sense of unrest is unlikely to go away anytime soon.

In the eyes of these young protestors, until the economy significantly recovers and they aren't faced with the potential of indefinite poverty, it's unlikely that they will cease to be concerned about the potential of indefinite poverty.

I was going to say, 620+ pages doesn't seem like a "quick" anything.

5 Reasons Why 'Occupy Wall Street' Won't Work

He also worked as an investment banker and a consultant.

Hating banks is counterproductive.

oh

During the financial regulation battle least year, a lawyer I know who works with banks and investors lamented the effort. He worried that Congress would go to far. Banking is one of the few industries the U.S. has left where we're a global leader, he said. He is absolutely right.

oh

That large majority of Wall Streeters will walk by the protesters and shake their heads at the crowds' misunderstanding of what they do.

oh

the movie was cool cuz dan hedaya played barney frank, which was the biggest no duh casting since kinnear as dick vermeil in that shitty wahlberg flick

pfft, bankers, they think they're people

Those angry with Wall Street should seek more effective means of affecting change than this.

but not really, since wall st doesn't give a shit and the US is a center right country!

Enacting new financial transaction taxes or even more burdensome regulation will not be good for the economy in the short-run. Even many Democrats are worried that such aggressive actions threaten the recovery. That's the main reason why the Bush tax cuts were extended. As the banking industry remains fragile, the government isn't likely to wallop it with new fees, taxes, or regulation just because a few thousand protesters in Lower Manhattan are making some noise. The last thing we need is another financial crisis.

How To Make Apple Pie in Four Easy Steps.

But the Occupy Wall Street movement's anger is directed at bankers. Here's the problem: they really don't care.

I had gone down to Zuccotti Park to see the activist movement firsthand after getting a call from the chief executive of a major bank last week, before nearly 700 people were arrested over the weekend during a demonstration on the Brooklyn Bridge.

“Is this Occupy Wall Street thing a big deal?” the C.E.O. asked me. I didn’t have an answer. “We’re trying to figure out how much we should be worried about all of this,” he continued, clearly concerned. “Is this going to turn into a personal safety problem?"

I'm surprised he omitted the Diet Coke or Pellegrino.

“Is this Occupy Wall Street thing a big deal?” the C.E.O. asked me, nervously swirling his glass of Pellegrino. I didn’t have an answer, but I stared longingly at the Pellegrino.

since when did the US have a healthy, vibrant banking system?

The reality is that the U.S. is a center-right nation, and Congress reflects that. While some cities are farther to the left than others, they already have very progressive representatives. Meanwhile, the message of Occupy Wall Street isn't likely to catch on and affect any change in more center-right regions like the Tea Party did.

Sixty-four percent of Americans said they believe those making a million dollars or more in taxes should pay more.

When Coolidge was president.

xpost

i mean, really, does this person not see the connection between the system he supports and the unemployment problem he claims bank bailouts are going to overcome? because once capitalism goes multi-national, why should we assume that higher profits for US corporations/shareholders are going to translate into actual US jobs for those further down the ladder? or is he just an unreconstructed "trickle down"-er, and the idea is that profits at the top just do magically and reliably filter down and help everyone else?

shhhh you'll shatter the illusion

where were those 64% last november?

that's not really the point

wait does this guy claim further bank bailouts are needed and that this will somehow overcome the unemployment problem?

the fact that washington has ceased to raise takes on the rich doesn't equate with the country as a whole being "center-right" on the issue -- the country has been far from center-right on the issue of raising taxes on the rich long before last novemeber.

(xp)

I get so sick of the uncritical invocation of the word "growth", where growth at all costs and at any cost is held up as some divine healing force- I mean, the point here is that "growth" as the managerial/consultant firm/hedge fund class measure it isn't doing anything for the majority of people in this country- their mantra of "steady growth" is cancerous for the rest of us

“Is this Occupy Wall Street thing a big deal?” the C.E.O. asked me, nervously swirling his glass of Pellegrino. I didn’t have an answer, but I stared longingly at the Pellegrino.

― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, October 3, 2011 10:54 PM Bookmark

I just got a whole bunch of pellegrino at costco really cheap you can have some of mine brother

i mean the unemployment problem is pretty much a case of chickens coming home to roost w/ the decimation of manufacturing in this country right? i haven't looked at the breakdown in numbers in a couple of months but i can remember in august it was 2-3% unemployment for post-grads, 5% for college grads, 9% for hs grads, and some crazy true depression type number (high teens i remember) for hs dropouts. the unemployment problem is focused pretty squarely on 'unskilled' workers. protecting teacher pensions and balancing state budgets ie the stimulus shockingly had no impact on this and i can only hope americans (the ones who bother to vote at least) don't think repealing obamacare and dismantling the epa will.

manufacturing jobs being lost to automation and moving overseas is a big deal but its like lots of jobs in lots of industries have been lost before, my great grandparents generation like 90% of jobs were agricultural, when we lost those everyone wasnt just permanently out of work, we had v low unemployment just a few years ago, this current situation is caused directly by a lack of demand, which is why if we had more stimulus wed be in a lot better shape

unemployment is an aggregate demand problem more than anything else but I think there are major structural problems in the future

xp

what with robot doctors and all

w/afros

this current situation is caused directly by a lack of demand, which is why if we had more stimulus wed be in a lot better shape

More stimulus toward which industries, though?

(Apologies to Alfred that I asked a question.)

well you could just give people money

you could also build trains, trains are cool things that most 1st world countries have

yeah trains are rad, i support trains

timellison

there are times when Washington just needs to be practical. When unemployment is stuck above 9% is such a time.

to me, this indicates that the author thinks that those jobs are just bound to come back, if we just leave banks alone to do what they've been doing so far- the implication, I take it, is that any regulation of the banking industry would prevent some surge in employment that is just around the corner

I don't see any evidence for why those jobs are going to come back, and the shriveling of manufacturing seems to suggest to me that they're not going to, which leaves a big chunk of the population in the lurch- I don't know if he believes that as a nation we are all just going to become white collar people with content provider / branding jobs and happily let the rest of the world do the manufacturing (hi, china!) or not, but I just don't get why we're not supposed to see a certain amount of unemployment as a structural requirement of the system he doesn't want to regulate- companies want wages to stay low in order to keep costs down so that they can pass the profits upwards to stockholders, and a big pool of people who don't have work but want to work is going to keep wages nice and low- at least this is what I see happening in the academic labor pool, where tons of adjuncts bust their ass for nearly nothing simply because they feel lucky to have any job at all-

k3vin k.

eh those manufacturing jobs have been gone for a while, and we still hve v low unemployment v recently, and while its certainly a big problem that there are not many quality blue collar jobs, theres no reason why there shouldnt be jobs, other than people generally dont have enough money in their pockets

yeah but now the construction jobs are gone too. and unlike manufacturing they'll be back eventually (still haven't completely found a way to outsource that)(though obv there's this thing called illegal immigration) it won't be soon.

yeah imho there are many things that could be done to fix this shit that just wont be

and just on a sort of pedantic factoid point u.s. manufacturing has lost way more jobs to automation than it has to other countries, we still make tons stuff, it just doesnt take as many people

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/3491058943_4ffe55039f.jpg

if people keep being careful and responsible with their money, it's going to take a long time for population growth to restore the demand for goods and homes and bullshit this country's economy relied upon four years ago.

just open the borders nbd

or open Borders

reopen borders, problem solved

eh we don't have to worry about population the same way that other western countries do

there's just nothing left to do, y'all..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/opinion/sunday/one-path-to-better-jobs-more-density-in-cities.html?

well you could just give people money

― ice cr?m, Monday, October 3, 2011 5:29 PM (28 minutes ago)

happier times

Dr. Whiney is confused about the demographic of these protestors.

I have seen them referred to as "hipster," "hippies," and "4chan kids." All of which obviously have some overlaps in places, but I'm not getting a real good sense of who they are

they are 99% of the american population.

Just kids, right? Long after they assumed they weren't (c.f. the tread about not killing a guy from Juarez cause you do coke, when the cartels make as much money off weed).

^^^ meant sympathetically

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrT-0Xbrn4

Check this guy out ^

http://www.observer.com/2011/10/exclusive-occupy-wall-street-activist-slams-fox-news-anchor-in-un-aired-interview-video/

haha all cannons on full blast

omg love that guy

"jesus stuff" otm

oh damn

like a boss

Dr. Whiney is confused about the demographic of these protestors.

I have seen them referred to as "hipster," "hippies," and "4chan kids." All of which obviously have some overlaps in places, but I'm not getting a real good sense of who they are
--ZEP Zosos Boys (Whiney G. Weingarten)

can you be a politically active hipster? being a part of this involves looking and acting fairly ridiculous and associating yourself w/ a ridiculous crowd.

the crowds mostly remind me of the bay area, some people are prob as close to 2011-hippies as you get I guess. and there is always a drum circle, even during the important meetings there are people at the other side of the park w/ a drum circle. they are seriously only there for the drum circle.

last night there was an agenda item that involved noise and thus the drum circle and so people were concerned that the drum circle people weren't gonna have their input but then someone else mentioned that they specifically told them about this agenda item and they still preferred to just be across the park, drum circling.

I will bring my customized chant:

The people
United
Are generally defeated!

true story I paid $10 once to attend a drum circle

the $10 included a free drink though

they specifically told them about this agenda item and they still preferred to just be across the park, drum circling.

― iatee, Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:04 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

respect

what wld happen if you brought a drum machine + amp to a drum circle

just thinking out loud here

you'd need a power source

people would turn it into a bong

fwiw I have not smelled pot ONCE

kids these days

an encouraging sign

cuz nypd will freak the fuck out if someone were seen smoking the pot xxp

what wld happen if you brought a drum machine + amp to a drum circle

animal collective show.

haha

ice cr?m spilled water on whiney g weingarten at a drum circle

troo

if ilx comes up w/ a good sign I'll considering wearing it tonight, I've decided it's time to be a sign-person. no ban l0u1s jagg3r or w/e.

'occupy deez nuts'

what wld happen if you brought a drum machine + amp to a drum circle

animal collective show.

― strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:37 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol

'can't wait till they make a porno parody of this'

ggreenwald Glenn Greenwald
Amazing how rapidly #OccupyWallStreet narrative transformed from "childish-worthless-losers" to "something-important-is-happening-here"
2 hours ago

btw feel like this dude needs to learn how to celebrate a victory every so often

"gas, grass, or ass: nobody protests for free"

looks like a celebration to me

god, i hate gg

that's why I love him, he's like the Mets to you!

the truth comes out

'nobama no cry'

i hate him more than i hate the mets. i hate him as much as i hate the cowboys

I'm wearing a mets t-shirt today too so the ilx sign can be mets associated

dunno if there's really a good way to relate the economy w/ the mets success story tho

bernie madoff fucked both

you've gotta admit the MSM has moved from dismissive to ambivalent pretty quickly. Even that idiot Gina Bellanfante (sp?) in the Sunday Times was back this week, clucking her tongue more "fairly."

so has ilx

'occupy deez nuts'

― ice cr?m, Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:47 AM (40 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

occupy ball meat

occupy lol street

WE ARE THE 77%

ha

occupy COGH

occupies 'n' thighs

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/082009/1250675673_snoop-riot.gif

WE ARE THE 77%

oh man plz do this one

wdyllows

Here, let Jonah explain what's wrong with Occupy Wall Street.

you've gotta admit the MSM has moved from dismissive to ambivalent pretty quickly. Even that idiot Gina Bellanfante (sp?) in the Sunday Times was back this week, clucking her tongue more "fairly."

― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 11:10 AM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

absolutely! which is why glen couldve for once been all BOOM BITCH instead of his typical sarcastic rmde @ mm routine

at least the Arabs were smart enough to start the Arab Spring in the Spring! These bozos chose the fall which means it’s only going to get colder. No doubt some will hold out in their urban yurts for as long as it takes, but that self-anointed avant garde of the campus proletariat is going to get lonely when it starts to snow

moronic as Goldberg is, this is a fair point tbh

I don’t think this thing has nearly the legs its boosters do. For starters, for all the talk about this being the U.S. version of the Arab Spring (a disgusting, and idiotic, anti-American slander by the way), at least the Arabs were smart enough to start the Arab Spring in the Spring! These bozos chose the fall which means it’s only going to get colder

this is basically true, the weather's a bigger factor than the nypd at this point
xp

sorry, can't read that, I'm off to Occupy Baltimore today

peace and lols errbody

it would be easier if tents were legal

what does spending the night accomplish?

not having to find another place to sleep if you came from out of town?

Alfred, you know you can't get your Corner time back at the end of your life, right?

lol

(a disgusting, and idiotic, anti-American slander by the way)

the campus proletariat is going to get lonely when it starts to snow Yeah, nobody remembers to provide winter uniforms when invading Russia. Wtf?

Otoh, had they done this in the spring, by summer they would have been far more vulnerable to being called stinky hippies.

spring didn't feel very long this year, it got gross pretty fast

#movewallstreettocalifornia

Alfred, you know you can't get your Corner time back at the end of your life, right?

Far less time than ball games.

hahaaaaa

I don’t think this thing has nearly the legs its boosters do. For starters, for all the talk about this being the U.S. version of the Arab Spring (a disgusting, and idiotic, anti-American slander by the way), at least the Arabs were smart enough to start the Arab Spring in the Spring! These bozos chose the fall which means it’s only going to get colder

the arab spring started in january, not sure this guy should be throwing the word "bozo" about so carelessly.

feel like what this protest needs is MORE JUGGALOS tbh

yes, really Jonah Goldberg and 5 hours of great diamond entertainment last Wednesday, utterly equivalent. You deserve Bradball.

xxp

jonah goldberg spelled "hordes" wrong

You deserve Bradball.

Only if he shows up without "Angelina."

I'm on my phone can someone paste a 'grumpy old men' jpg

wait a minute, there are people taking the seasonal reference of "arab spring" literally? jeez, really?

i was under the impression that it was, you know... metaphorical

like "Bin Laden Bounce" but that was more of a splash so uh..

let's just call it "The Fall of Occupy Wall Street" duh

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/10/obamas_unlikely_anarchist_frie.html

The political landscape has rarely looked grimmer for the Democrats than it does right now, with President Obama’s approval ratings dropping, his Party sinking into despair, and the one thing that could save his reelection — the nomination of Rick Perry — suddenly staggering. Yet two things have happened within the last month that provide a faint glimmer of hope for the Democrats. The first is Obama’s American Jobs Act. The second is the growing Occupy Wall Street movement.

"only one thing could save Obama's reelection, except for these two other things"

the fact that we still can't get 2k people out there in NYC of all places confirms my belief that the far left is pretty marginal demographically. but the narrative matters more than the size of the crowd and the narrative is picking up slowly.

urban yurts

tried to play "yurt" in scrabble the other night and was shouted down because it wasn't in the crummy paperback dictionary. clearly playing with the wrong people.

young urban trash?

hahaha

fwiw i think crowds wait for narratives in order to become crowds xxp
(noble attempts to subvert this dynamic notwithstanding, it has to have slowed the momentum thus far, again fwiw)

btw glad our ag kamala harris pulled california out of the bank settlement talks last week, to go with ny's pullout. my problem w/ 'don't wait for electoral heroes' rhetoric is you inevitably leave a lot of political synergy on the vine *it's a tapestry*

yeah I saw that about Harris, she's great

god the whole idea of "99%" of people protesting for anything is sort of ludicrous in the first place esp when they don't actually have any clear goals ("WE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE AND WE HAVE FEELINGS ABOUT SOME THINGS") but only making the top 1% the bad guys (while they clearly are bad guys) is just some silly bullshit. half those "we are the 99%" things are people complaining about not being able to go to grad school, paying too much for their house, having too many student loan bills. that sucks for them and other, richer people are responsible for a bunch of crappy things, but i do not have sympathy to spare for entitled people who accrue that much debt with the EXPECTATION that they're guaranteed the money to do so. meanwhile, they're living in big old houses and not worrying a bit about food... this whole thing is just an excuse for relatively well-off people to feel like they're the true victims of capitalism. no one in "the 99%" is or ever has been entitled to these things. people living in actual poverty (ppl who typically don't have the privilege to attend rallies) have been hit so much harder than the upper middle class by the past decade's economy (http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/07/28/a-recession-for-white-americans-a-depression-for-black-and-latino-americans) for this much whining to come out of the latter. i'm a bigger commie than most and i despise the wage gap but i don't have sympathy for people making bad decisions and gambles with their money and then whining about it.

tl;dr: check your privilege

i am the 99%

half those "we are the 99%" things are people complaining about not being able to go to grad school, paying too much for their house, having too many student loan bills.

lol have you done a study

stop it with the strawmanning nonsense

zachlyon: excellent sense of solidary going there

er "solidarity"

check your "check your privilege"

god for once can something get off the ground from the left in this country (ans: no, if you ask the left)

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intel/2011/10/04/04_wallst.o.jpg/a_560x375.jpg

i draw the line at those guy fawkes masks fwiw #nosolidarity

the 99% thing is just a rhetorical hook to emphasize the economic disparity/income gap. Saying "We are the 75%" doesn't have the same weight (was gonna say 85% there but lol 5% Percent Nation)

let a hundred flowers /b/loom

:/ i know

xp

lol have you done a study

― unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:57 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

i read enough of them to get a headache from rolling my eyes too much, which is scientific enough for me

goole: i'm generally against feigning solidarity for things i have personal issues with, especially when there doesn't seem to be anything there to stand with

no one should ever feel strongly about anything ever so as long as there is something worse happening

we happy few

no one should ever feel strongly about anything ever so as long as there is something worse happening

― （╯°□°）╯︵ ya, （╯°□°）╯︵ ya for real (gbx), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:03 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

I would def 100% agree with this but my foot slightly hurts and god damn

i read enough of them to get a headache from rolling my eyes too much, which is scientific enough for me

I read enough to get the impression a fair number of these people are unemployed, not lazy irresponsible creditors in huge houses

xp

people living in actual poverty (ppl who typically don't have the privilege to attend rallies)

If only there was some group of people who COULD attend rallies and draw attention to the plight of the underclass in oh shit wait a second you just blew my mind.

at some point (like how about now) political simplicity has enormous benefits. are you "against wall street"? then why nitpick, right now?

as if student debt is separable from other debt issues -- as if the working poor don't have student debt either -- as if going into debt peonage trying to escape low-wage labor via college is of a different universe from going broke staying in it

hey guess who holds the paper on the other end of student loans, credit cards, auto loans, mortages...

lol my typos are getting descriptive. "mortage"? can m. white translate that one

goole otm

the point isn't to feel sorry for every individual person the point is to build a narrative of 'there are an enormous number of poor and middle class people w/ unemployment and debt problems, government policy should prob focus on that'

government policy hasn't been focused on that over the last year and the fact that the narrative isnt on the front page every day is a part of the reason.

looking at the tumblr just to see who's 'worth feeling sorry for' is incredibly stupid, I would roll my eyes at you but apparently that causes headaches

no one should ever feel strongly about anything ever so as long as there is something worse happening

― （╯°□°）╯︵ ya, （╯°□°）╯︵ ya for real (gbx), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:03 PM (57 seconds ago) Bookmark

sick of this v standard response -- if you want to feel bad about your situation you can do so without trying to rile up the public in your favor. this millenial trend of thinking that everyone at every level of everything deserves equal attention and pity for their strife. they don't. this movement is concentrated on a middle class that is only perceived to have it much worse than they do because the lower class is bringing down those numbers of the "99%." and goole, nothing about the middle class protesters that i've seen thus far has been about helping the impoverished, it's been about helping themselves. helping the middle class and helping the lower class are different goals with little overlap.

if you want to feel bad about your situation you can do so without trying to rile up the public in your favor.

Hear that, unions? Keep that shit to yourselves.

if a young woman named Flora who's working at a gas station trying pay for a community college course as a nursing assistant, hasn't put her story up on the internet like Brett, who's broke from doing an MA in art history at tisch, don't whine about Brett, get Flora a damn camera

helping the middle class and helping the lower class are different goals with little overlap.

oh come on, you don't think this is true, do you?

the point of the "we are 99" deal is to get people to identify more like the poor

look, you're getting a lot of shit here but i really feel like this hostile anti-majoritarian tendency on the left needs to be cajoled out of people

this millenial trend of thinking that everyone at every level of everything deserves equal attention and pity for their strife. they don't.

this is also a v standard response, btw

helping the middle class and helping the lower class = there is enormous overlap. unemployed hs drop outs can't get min wage jobs because college educated ex-middle class people now have those jobs.

this is increasingly resembling the People's Front of Judea debate in Life of Brian

and jesus i don't doubt that there are a lot of people there protesting who have a very serious stake in any outcome it might bring

it's just the idea of making the standard so wide as to include the vast majority of america is a way of redirecting any potential attention away from the poor and towards the middle class which really isn't doing so bad all things considered. if everything changes on wall st somehow, if this ever does result in any actual reform, which it won't because no one even knows what concrete solutions are available, the goal of the movement seems to be more about upping the middle class back towards stability rather than upping the poor from depression to recession. again these things have minimal overlap -- the wage gap is not just between the top and everyone else.

"the point of the "we are 99" deal is to get people to identify more like the poor"

people who are not poor should not identify more like the poor

they should understand that they are not poor

helping the middle class and helping the lower class = there is enormous overlap

^^^

otoh carry on
http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx97/JML9999/circular_firing_squad-1.jpg

people w/ 6-figure college debt are 'actually poor' btw

this movement is concentrated on a middle class that is only perceived to have it much worse

Zach, this nonsense was just contradicted by the latest census: the "middle class" has not seen wages keep up with the cost of living since the seventies.

people who are not poor should not identify more like the poor

I just... do you understand how psychology works, like at all.

if you want to feel bad about your situation you can do so without trying to rile up the public in your favor.

Hear that, unions? Keep that shit to yourselves.

― shake it, shake it, sugary pee (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:15 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

people in most unions =/= people whining about not being able to pay for grad school

getting people to identify with one another is how you build solidarity and how you build majorities with common goals, you know, the groups of people that actually accomplish shit

they should understand that they are not poor

If you can't pay interest levels on your home and credit card, and you've accepted a much lower paying job because you've lost your decent one in the last few years, are you still considered "not poor"?

ny's biggest unions are giving major support to this - i wouldn't be surprised if they outnumber the rest of the crowd at some coming events

zach i actually feel a lot that xp but i think that at this point i'm pretty open to the idea of seeing how an actual, maybe, popular left "movement" or w/e plays out. also yeah the "all things considered" qualifier is a little unfair

How can those people consider themselves poor? They have iPods, microwave ovens, and cable!

like yes everyone with a home to sleep in and food to eat is doing much better than the impoverished and the hungry, but it's at least a little unkind to suggest that someone like alfred describes should just suck it up and recognize how lucky they are and not make themselves heard

I don't understand what's accomplished by reinforcing ideological class divisions among the lower 99%

i do

haha otm

this movement is concentrated on a middle class that is only perceived to have it much worse

Zach, this nonsense was just contradicted by the latest census: the "middle class" has not seen wages keep up with the cost of living since the seventies.

― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

i'm not saying the middle class is in its right place.

i'm saying that, seeing as this movement is a response to the current financial crisis, the concentration of its message should be on those currently being hit the worst. this protest is better suited for a time when the people suffering through a full-on depression (black and latino americans) are not going through much more of a crisis.

I got annoyed a couple nights ago when an intelligent college type had no idea what Dodd-Frank was and no doubt was clueless about credit default swaps, but he doesn't have to accept that he might never get the job that allows him to pay the interest on his loans.

*when on television

'this protest' is whatever the people who show up make this protest. marginalized viewpoints are (officially) given priority at the meetings. xp

i'm not saying the middle class is in its right place.

megalol at all this "know your place" rhetoric

i'm saying that, seeing as this movement is a response to the current financial crisis, the concentration of its message should be on those currently being hit the worst. this protest is better suited for a time when the people suffering through a full-on depression (black and latino americans) are not going through much more of a crisis.

what kind of economic crisis ONLY hits the middle class and not the poorest of the poor? this is ridiculous. shit flows downhill, btw.

as you said above, it doesn't have a real "message" apart from "this economic situation and wealth disparity sucks and we're pretty sure wall street has something to do with it".

like, think about what it is that you're actually irritated about here: americans in the street expressing anger about the ruling class

http://www.crawfordsworld.com/rob/HEG/HEG_Economics/HEGimages/MrMoneybags02Trans.gif

zachlyon make a quick escape after successfully trolling the "Occupy Wall Street" thread on contentious message board ILX.

people who are not poor should not identify more like the poor

I just... do you understand how psychology works, like at all.

― unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:22 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

perhaps there is a lack of understanding with how we see the word "identify"

when i see "identify more like the poor" i think of appropriation. a white person "identifying more like black people" is a white person referring to themselves as black or convincing themselves that they can ever understand what being black means. maybe your connotation is different.

this protest is better suited for a time when the people suffering through a full-on depression (black and latino americans)

I don't understand this thinking. When it ever the right time? It's the working poor who can't take an afternoon off to protest.

i do

― （╯°□°）╯︵ ya, （╯°□°）╯︵ ya for real (gbx), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:27 PM (2 minutes ago)

u married to shakey now, gbx

I got annoyed a couple nights ago when an intelligent college type had no idea what Dodd-Frank was and no doubt was clueless about credit default swaps, but he doesn't have to accept that he might never get the job that allows him to pay the /interest/ on his loans.
--Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

I'm sure half of the people who voted on Dodd frank couldn't give you a detailed explanation of what it does

"I'll believe it when I see migrant workers and Arby's employees marching to Wall Street carrying torches and pikes."

Sorry if I'm slow here, but what are the protestors protesting? The fact that people who work on Wall Street make a lot of money? Just wondering if this sort of protest would be better aimed at people like, I don't know, Chuck Schumer or something, elected officials who actually have a hand in crafting policy.

Josh - its "symbolic".

Just wondering if this sort of protest would be better aimed at people like, I don't know, Chuck Schumer or something, elected officials who actually have a hand in crafting policy.

I would like to see protesters outside Frank, Schumer, Lieberman, and Biden's offices every morning.

as you said above, it doesn't have a real "message" apart from "this economic situation and wealth disparity sucks and we're pretty sure wall street has something to do with it".

like, think about what it is that you're actually irritated about here: americans in the street expressing anger about the ruling class

― （╯°□°）╯︵ ya, （╯°□°）╯︵ ya for real (gbx), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:30 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

when you simplify things like that, sure. i think my point is that a huge percentage of these people ARE the ruling class, and that having direct control over poorer people's money is not the only thing that defines "ruling class"

a white person "identifying more like black people" is a white person referring to themselves as black or convincing themselves that they can ever understand what being black means. maybe your connotation is different.

wow

i think my point is that a huge percentage of these people ARE the ruling class

okay this is just trolling. how can people with no control over anything be considered "ruling" in any sense of the word.

ok seriously shakey

can you articulate what you mean when you say identify

that post was meant to illustrate that we hopefully have a different working definition in this conversation

fuck

"i think my point is that a huge percentage of these people ARE the ruling class, and that having direct control over poorer people's money is not the only thing that defines "ruling class""

Wait the protesters are the "ruling class"? Haha in what world.

i think it's imperative that people begin to feel themselves as either rich or not-rich. that they begin to feel some commonality between themselves and people a little bit down the wage curve instead of many multiples above it. i don't think this necessarily means appropriation. worry about that if it happens.

if you think this is a step too far because it ignores real differences in privilege, ok, but i guess i wonder what not ignoring that privilege is supposed to mean. go home? stop talking about student debt? i mean, what? cash transfers to the lowest quintile as priority one? so far your complaint seems to be on the order of image and representation -- i am seeing angry middle class people so surely if they get what they want it won't help the poor anyway. i basically feel like, maybe we ought to cross that bridge when we get onto the same continent.

you don't have to go far to find plenty of rightist reasons for this to stop immediately. it'd be nice if we heard more from the left than something similar. it ain't perfect man, it's obvious, why put up more friction. i give this thing about a 95% chance of being killed in its crib as it is

why on earth the left feels this need to project all of its anxieties inward i'll never understand. you realize the right is curiously untroubled by this.

maybe instead of "identify" we can use "empathize"?

xp

all my life I've felt like I've been ruled by dudes in a drum circle

lol

They've controlled every move I've made in life.

god are we seriously playing the oppression olympics still come the fuck on zach

at least now I know where my hackey sack dreams are coming from

I was going by the (what I thought) was a fairly standard definition of identify: to see yourself in others, to grasp what you have in common, to understand how people who are not like you in various ways are still very much like you in ways that are readily identifiable and significant.

this sort of identification is critical for any kind of political action, social movement, whatever.

xp

i'm just a slave to the (drum circle) rhythm

anyway goole OTM throughout

"at least now I know where my hackey sack dreams are coming from"

Obey your hippie masters.

goole otm x1000

but it's at least a little unkind right-wing to suggest that someone like alfred describes should just suck it up and recognize how lucky they are and not make themselves heard

worry about that if it happens.

hand-wringing lefties need this tattooed on their fucking forearms

HOOS otm that this is a retread of 90s identity politics/oppression olympics "you have no right to complain about your suffering because mine is SO MUCH WORSE", this thinking is very unproductive, see circular firing squad image rinse repeat

i think my point is that a huge percentage of these people ARE the ruling class

i think zach is pissed that some of the OWS protesters are advanced degree students theoretically set to earn a whole lot of money over their lifetimes who are cranky about the tuition bubble and he doesn't like them being lumped in and "identifying with" destitute people.

you realize the right is curiously untroubled by this.

But the right is untroubled by a lot of things. Things like...crises of conscience, or a healthy capacity for self-examination, or the neurological development to consider complex moral scenarios and follow the plot out the other side.

I have protested outside Schumer's apartment building, but that was for his scumsucking Iraq war vote. Would do again.
Also I am off next Monday and Tuesday, so perhaps I will show up for this.

"advanced degree students theoretically set to earn a whole lot of money over their lifetimes"

More likely those advanced degrees are going to be collecting a lot of dust.

Shredded and used as hacky sack filler iirc.

those advanced degrees are also good at collecting a lot of debt

i think zach is pissed that some of the OWS protesters are advanced degree students theoretically set to earn a whole lot of money over their lifetimes who are cranky about the tuition bubble and he doesn't like them being lumped in and "identifying with" destitute people.

i get that, i think it's a valid concern even! it's a problem that needs to be addressed by addition, not subtraction, if you get me. given the enormity of the problem we're dealing with, at this point in the protest, i just feel like this kind of who-is-this-for-really stuff has to be put on the back burner.

xp "ruling class" is not always meant to be taken literally/the power structure is a lot more complex than what everyone here is making it out to be? wtf i did not think this was weird to think? capitalism grants power to those with more privilege -- power over more of the world's resources, over opportunities, over rights -- and that extends beyond bankers and brokers and politicians. people with upper middle-class money and opportunity have power over the poor -- not as much as the wealthiest 1%, but it is still there. and ruling class power runs through race, too, but i'm really trying not to introduce that word more into this clusterfuck.

"not as much as the wealthiest 1%, but it is still there"

The power that advanced degree holders have over the poor is pretty miniscule.

also ps quite a lot of advanced degrees don't do much to your earning ability.

can goole just run for office?

or maybe just mod, but then i'd have to hate you

when i see "identify more like the poor" i think of appropriation. a white person "identifying more like black people" is a white person referring to themselves as black or convincing themselves that they can ever understand what being black means. maybe your connotation is different.

― witchho (zachlyon), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:31 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

i seem to have ended up in the vampire weekend thread. can someone direct me back to "occupy wall street". thanks.

i mean this kindly, but who the fuck cares? a load of people are unhappy about continued abuses at the hands of the ruling class and - whether they are ruling class or not - their support is meaningful in grabbing ground for whatever eventual movement may come from this

there were a lot of xposts in there, but i'm not gonna clarify which one i meant, just b/c

power disparities r everywhere! *wrings hands* *commits sepuku* *feels so good*

hey matt, u back in UT?

zach you buried a legitimate point/concern in about an actual ton of straw

ok, yes, ty xp "emphasizing" is a much better word. i usually see the word "identify" as having to do with how people LITERALLY define themselves, ie your racial/sexual/etc identity. it's a different context.

with "emphasizing," of course i believe in it. but 1) this movement looks to me like that generally isn't happening, 2) emphasizing still needs to happen with the knowledge that people with certain built-in privileges are never going to fully understand what not having that privilege is like, and whenever people try to do this shit gets fucked up, but that's not the most important thing here i guess

not anymore i just killed myself fyi xp

"but that's not the most important thing here i guess"

No kidding.

The fact of the matter is that critical mass doesn't happen without identification across traditional lines of division and advocacy on behalf of those who for reasons of economic necessity can't advocate for themselves.

zach i think maybe you should pitch a piece to the awl about how "we are the 99%" would better represent minorities if it was run on twitter instead of tumblr

I am trying to stop undercutting a serious discussion with unhelpful sideline lols but it's really difficult when served awesome typos like "emphasizing" for "empathizing"

aw thx guys

fine, let me get New Republic for a second, sure, from the drum circles to the bizarro anarcho-local politics to adbusters to the guy fawkes masks, a lot of the participants are Not My Kind Of Folks, but i want to see this thing grow. building a majority means you cut corners, might as well get in practice now, right?

zach you buried a legitimate point/concern in about an actual ton of straw

― yung huma (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:53 PM (15 seconds ago) Bookmark

i can see how it would look that way (strawmanning) with the tumblr thing. that was meant to be more of an example with my general impression of the movement.

and please, if you think i'm trolling, i seriously thought some people would agree with me, if they responded at all. i'm surprised by this.

shouting "privilege" on a message board full of people with advanced degrees

Hey, hey, let's not get nuts, I only have a BA.

I can't possibly identify with you then.

Or emphasizing either.