cold call dating: classic or dud?

mental note: proofread before submitting.

i sent her an e-mail today. why the hell not? it could be just what i need...

a v.lucky man.

''also, as a possibly less interesting metathread: girls asking guys out - c/d?''

yes please! I can nevah do it. I suppose if a girl had a Xenakis or a Om Kalsoum t-shirt that might be something to talk about, something to start with.

nobody's answered the actual question: have you ever dated a person that you had NO knowledge of beforehand, and if so, how'd it turn out?

As for girls asking guys out. . . this is TOUGH one (here in the States anyway) cause many many girls that do that (or come on really strong or whatever) are fucking psycho (yeah, this is a generalization, but it's a pretty true one). That's not to say that I don't think girls should ask guys out, I think it CAN be great (and in a TOTALLY perfect world anyone and everyone would feel like they could and should ask anyone or everyone else on dates or for sex or whatever regardless of anyone's respective gender)--BUT a lot of guys are rather suspicious of women that DO (often for good reason again) so girls who do ask dudes out should try their best to appear NON-crazy especially on that first DATE (i.e. no asking whether or not the guy wants babies, TELLING THE GUY OVER AND OVER AGAIN HOW COOL YOU THINK THEY ARE BASED ON THEIR HELLO KITTY KEYCHAIN, describing your recent rape, talking incessantly about how much you hate your parents, etc.) Save that kind of talk for date #3 or six months on. Basically once you've already got him hooked on yr fantastic ass. Cause it'll be much harder for him to walk out on you then.

ps HI alex HOW are YOU doing? ;-)

The last person I summond up the guts to approach at random (though I did actually go and speak to her) was really pleased, flattered, and gay. Sigh.

Lyra: Again all the things I said up above were told me on first dates where a girl asked me out (or situations where the girl was strongly intimating that she wanted to date me) and believe me I have a bunch of other ones that are NEARLY as cringe inducing. Of course, there have been girls that I have ASKED out that have said "UH OH DANGER WILL ROBINSON" things early on, too, but NOT with even close to the kind of frequency (and again I am not alone--I have discussed this phenomenon with other guys and GIRLS and it's one of those things that while it is NOT a hard and fast rule is a pretty commonly held cultural stereotype--in the States again.)

she seems very sweet, but i dont feel particularly well-equipped to be meeting new people right now, as my book is due in a month (i dream in stress) and i'm still pining madly for my ex-girlfriend WHOM I DUMPED

yes, in fact i am drunk! why do you ask?

message to all girls out there: be more like Lyra dammit!

It's like the whole guy coming up to talk to you in a pub thing - how many would dare? Only the psychos. Crikey, the non-psychos get that if I wanted to talk to them then I would have done so already.

I get the feeling that in Aus most guys understand that approaching a woman is paramount to harrassing her. Giving looks is okay but then it's up to her whether any talking goes on. Maybe the Aussie guy ILXers can give more info on this, my view *may* be skewed.

On the rare occasions that a guy I don't know decides to come up to me I either say "I don't talk to strangers" or I outrightly ignore him.

well done maria.

So, er, do you ask girls out then (and what do you do if a girl asks you out?)?

Yeah but Josh, toraneko wasn't just talking about strangers asking her out - it was men asking her out, period (she said it was *like* when strangers approach in a bar).

I dunno, it's a bit confusing. There are men that I know well enough that I consider them to be people as opposed to men but men I don't know very well I usually think of as men and I have some problems with men but sometimes there are men that I don't know very well who I connect with straight away and they're okay. All my role-models are men, which makes it even more confusing (for me, anyway).

I do not ask women out on dates because I am too shy and also because we don't really do dates in Australia. I will call up a girl I like to ask her if she's going out that weekend or whatever and arrange to meet up with her out but nothing alone.

On the rare occasions a woman asks me out I say yes so long as she doesn't seem smitten. I can't stand people being smitten with me, it makes me be cruel.

Having said all that, I still object to (strange) guys asking girls out due to what Josh said basically. There is something inherently threatening about a man approaching a woman.

You are meeting the wrong men, which is admittedly not an easy thing to avoid. I can't imagine that me asking someone out could be seen as threatening - though the fact that you are a) on the other side of the world, b) a lesbian and c) we have never met, will deter me from asking you out, you'll be surprised to hear. Otherwise, I think we're perfect for each other, really.

(I have to resist an in-joke here: one idiot acquaintance of mine was once bugging a woman at a party. Eventually, obviously angry, she said "Look, leave me alone - I'm a lesbian, so I'm not interested." He replied "That's okay - I'm bisexual." It has become a much-loved phrase. (I think I mentioned this on an old thread about fake bisxuals too, which I'm pretty sure he was.))

I have a date tomorrow, as it happens - a first meeting with someone through a dating site, a wealthy commodities broker. It will probably amount to nothing and I don't know why I mention it here.

''I have a date tomorrow, as it happens - a first meeting with someone through a dating site, a wealthy commodities broker. It will probably amount to nothing and I don't know why I mention it here.''

prob becuz it's sunday and you might be a bit bored.

Is it just cause you meant strange men in the first but not strange women in the second?

yes but that's why you talk first and get to know each other and you can't do that without introducing yourselves. unless you never ever ever talk to new people at all, which would be a bit hard to do.

There are men that I know well enough that I consider them to be people as opposed to men

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (Sorry, that statement is rife with so many idiotic assumptions that I can't help myself.)

Anyway, I think one of the problems with this thread is that people are SOOOOOO tentative these days about going out with other folk (regardless of gender or sexuality) that everyone really hedges their bets when approaching ANYONE with whom a possibility of any sort of romantic entanglement may occur. Hardly anyone FLAT OUT asks anyone out on "dates" (dinner, movie, fuck) anymore. Most people frame any invites they DO make with such ambiguity that for all the other person knows they could REALLY just want to drink some coffee and talk about Swimfan@ haha. Whether this is reticence is good or bad is beyond my compacity to say (it's the way the game seems to played now--at least as far as most het dating is concerned--and as far as I am concerned taking yr ball and going home is NOT a very good option) but I will say that it is in some ways much safer (i.e. NO one feels like asking someone out is a COMMITTMENT of any sort anymore really) and more confusing (i.e. it's a LOT harder to know what's going on if someone isn't upfront about their feelings).

well I don't think it sounds harsh at all. the very idea of any people not already familiar with each other asking each other out strikes me as barbaric, insane, frightening, foolish, bewildering, etc.

Really?!? I think it's exciting, bold, and ultimately quite rational to want to get to know NEW people. The only alternative seems to be the sort of clique-ish circular dating patterns I remember from college where everyone just dates in the same group of people. That sort of thing strikes me as "incestuous", "stagnant", "socially retarded", "safe", "limited", "BORING", etc.

You can talk to people without going out, surely?

2) Most people (yes, Mark's case is an exception) talk to other people before they ask them out, but EVEN if they don't have any tremendous long drawn out conversations about the state of the world, I fail to see why simple mutual ATTRACTION isn't a good enuff reason to ask someone if THEY WANT TO GET TO KNOW YOU FURTHER (i.e. GO OUT FOR DRINKS OR COFFEE)!

3) Social circles do not really change. Some die (or you leave them) and then you can get involved in a NEW social circle (which WOW is shockingly fucking like the last one excepting maybe MINOR fashion differences) but the CIRCLES themselves do not change.

Talking to strangers is dang peculiar.

Erm, me. Why is this strange PF?

Can you imagine?

"Hello Mr Smith. My name is Anna and I'm calling to see if you're interested in goig out for drink next week?"

Isn't this kind of commonplace? And fun?

NO of course not it is neither

we are all too advanced and intelligent to aspire to meet people we (gasp) know nothing abt, silly

good thing your friends don't follow this rule, btw

M Matos: it's even easier if you're not a sociopath
mark p: just to keep things in perspective:
(quoting me:)There are men that I know well enough that I consider them to be people as opposed to men

I'd like to point out that although me viewing men as men first and people second is not sociopathic but may be a bit sexist. Due to men being potentially more dangerous (in general, and with apologies to any anti-generalists) than women, I have to register them as men and take stock of what damage (if any) they possibly could do to me physically and then make a judgement on the likelihood of that happening based on what I know of their temperament/psychology.

Whilst I agree that this is not a nice way to have to operate it is realistic.

The worst bit is when I walk into a martial arts class because I have to register that every single guy in the place is 100% able to overpower me physically and the amount of trust I have too issue in order to be civil towards them is [some big word I don't know].

I know that there are people who do not have to deal with this level of terror and for them I am happy - but for me, I want to remain safe and this is how I do it.

Also, once again generalising and once again with apologies, many guys that I know, nice as they are, judge women as female objects first and people second. They do this because it is the woman's physical attributes that they notice first - and frequently the only reason they get to know the woman as a person is because her physical attributes elicited an interest in them.

When you talk about the mutual fancy thing, you know, the commonplace and fun one, you are pretty much talking about people who are judging each other as sexual objects (and usually therefore as male or female) rather than as people. Is this sociopathic?

In response to n.'s question:
Is it just cause you meant strange men in the first but not strange women in the second?

I'm not so scared of women due to being bigger and stronger than most of them although I do avoid ones with that crazy, obsessive look in their eye.

it's realistic insofar as it is YOUR reality. it's important to make this distinction.

When you talk about the mutual fancy thing, you know, the commonplace and fun one, you are pretty much talking about people who are judging each other as sexual objects (and usually therefore as male or female) rather than as people. Is this sociopathic?

er this implies that any mutual first-blush attraction is purely sexual, which i think is vastly oversimplifying. there are many random people that i'm sexually attracted to on a base level but i wouldn't necessarily want to date

to dismiss attraction and interest in a random person as PURELY sexual is to deny a whole other subset of instincts

I think you're *hoping* that they'll be a great person who you find really attractive. Attractiveness isn't necessarily physical obv, but if we're talking about someone you don't know at all (yet) then obv it's skewed totally towards 'do I like the look of them'. If we're talking about someone who you already know has an attractive/compatible personality then it's more of a balance. In either situation *dating* IS commonplace and fun.

I'd disagree with the assertion that checking out other people automatically = viewing them as a sexual object. That assumes that you have no interest, and would never have any interest, in them as people. As long as it's non-threatening or creepy in any way, what's wrong with checking someone out when you have nothing else to go on. It's also commonplace and fun, fergodsake.

If people all went around nekid and stuff then this may be the case but because there is so much that you can judge about a person based on their appearance (clothes, hairstyle, age, facial expression, location, posture, environment etc.) then yes, you see someone, they capture your interest for some reason (can be non-sexual, they just look like someone you'd like to know sort of thing), you then:
a. go over and start talking to them (this is strange)
b. try to find out who they are, who they know, what their story is etc. through your friends and then start schemeing to meet them (actually, this sounds strange too)
c. try to find out who they are, who they know, what their story is etc. through your friends and then ask to be introduced to them (ahh, finally, this sounds safe!)

Maybe for you, doc. (Actually I thought you were Married with Children etc.)

You said in the last 20 years, PF! I haven't been married 20 years! And, while dates themselves may stop, occasionally one gets chatted up by a stranger in a pub or on the bus or somewhere. (ILX 'people-who've met me' adopt expressions of disbelief!) This is not-commonplace enough, but still fun.

Social circles do not really change. Some die (or you leave them) and then you can get involved in a NEW social circle (which WOW is shockingly fucking like the last one excepting maybe MINOR fashion differences) but the CIRCLES themselves do not change. this is certainly not my experience of social circles. the social circles which i have gradually moved in and out of over the years all have had different concerns and different values and this is because people as individuals are different and impact upon a group differently. secondly, as someone mentioned yesterday, people change, and because of this their impact upon the "group" changes. i've never experienced a social circle as exactly like any other one, about the only thing i could definitely say they all have in common is their difference. i don't really know what it means to talk about a "social circle" as such anyway, as my experience of the people that i socialise with is quite fluid.

And finally Di, I am afraid that you are wrong. People don't really change either.

How could spending time and talking with a cute new person not be fun?

hi alex!!

(this is not necessarily owing solely to things said in this thread, but it sure don't hurt.)

(possible exceptions: di, josh, dr c, anna, martin.)

(the first wit who points out that i have implicated myself in being insane wins the gift of their own boorishness.)

and then says we should give ourselves
... the CREDIT to be able to remove yourself from the SITUATION in a quick and reasonably polite fashion before they decide that you are going be stalking bait

is the same Alex who previously said:
As for girls asking guys out. . . this is TOUGH one (here in the States anyway) cause many many girls that do that (or come on really strong or whatever) are fucking psycho (yeah, this is a generalization, but it's a pretty true one).

and:
BUT a lot of guys are rather suspicious of women that DO (often for good reason again) so girls who do ask dudes out should try their best to appear NON-crazy especially on that first DATE (i.e. no asking whether or not the guy wants babies, TELLING THE GUY OVER AND OVER AGAIN HOW COOL YOU THINK THEY ARE BASED ON THEIR HELLO KITTY KEYCHAIN, describing your recent rape, talking incessantly about how much you hate your parents, etc.) Save that kind of talk for date #3 or six months on...

and why?:
...Basically once you've already got him hooked on yr fantastic ass. Cause it'll be much harder for him to walk out on you then.

He then justified this by saying:
Again all the things I said up above were told me on first dates where a girl asked me out (or situations where the girl was strongly intimating that she wanted to date me) and believe me I have a bunch of other ones that are NEARLY as cringe inducing. Of course, there have been girls that I have ASKED out that have said "UH OH DANGER WILL ROBINSON" things early on, too, but NOT with even close to the kind of frequency (and again I am not alone--I have discussed this phenomenon with other guys and GIRLS and it's one of those things that while it is NOT a hard and fast rule is a pretty commonly held cultural stereotype--in the States again.)

So it would seem than Alex has been big and strong enough that at no point in time has he felt that his terrible inability to judge the temperament of some of the women he has dated is liable to get him bashed, raped or otherwise physically endangered.

Hence his impression that it is so easy to politely excuse oneself and thus avoid any nastiness.

Despite the fact that he is apparently not fearful of being physically assulted by women, he is still feels very unsettled about women who approach him out of the blue.

Of course, as he claims that revealing a hot ass before revealing a psycho personality could hold a guy back from leaving a woman he must surely concede that women can also be held back from leaving a psycho guy due to him having some appealing characteristics. Could be a very dangerous state of affairs, getting ensnared in such a way.

I'd rather hear the dirt on someone (male or female), as well as be attracted to them on whatever level before I make a decisions about whether or not I want to know them.

The weird thing about this thread is how everyone keeps saying everyone else is so weird.

He has maintained throughout that he believes that:
A. people should be able to just ask out whomever for dates/sex/whatever without causing them to freak out about their safety.

B. talking to strangers is necessary in order to get new friends.

What he has not done, I suspect, is to take into account the fact that it is because he is a man (I'm assuming he is a man and my suspicion is based on this assumption) he is confident enough physically that the odd psycho or two does not make him feel long-term unsafe. A lot of women, and some men of course, do not have that luxury.

I also suspect - due to Alex's assumed man-hood, attitude, and swearing-shouting-bullyishness - that neither he nor many of his 'social circle' have been victims of rape/assult/abuse and so he probably does not have to deal with the fear that is the legacy of such victimisation.

I was trying to point out that the things that he has experienced that have made him somewhat suspicious of the psycho status of strange women are comparable to the things that make me fearful of strange men. The difference in the severity of what he and I feel is, I believe, due to our physical differences.

Also, seeing as I'm 177cm tall and weigh 73kg (~5'10" & 160lbs) I'm probably bigger than half the guys around anyway and so should only be half as scared as smaller women.

ditto.

This has really moved well past dating, hasn't it?

So here's the deal, right? There is a lot misery and awfulness that human beings perpetrate on one another. What can and should be done to avoid being a victim of this sort of misery?

The answer is that you can't really avoid it with any sort of certainty. It happens. Misery (for lack of a better word) happens to big butch guys and little girls. Even (Josh's joking aside) locking yourself in your room and never leaving isn't proof against misery (not that if it was, I would advocate doing it). Random awful things happen and while you can minimize the risks of them happening, their possibility always always exists.

So how do you live then with this knowledge? Do you live in constant fear? Or do you live cautiously, but never the less hopefully? Do you take a few relatively "safe" chances? Or do you take none?

If that seemingly nice person in the cafe walks up to you and tries to start up a conversation, do you assume they are out to "hurt" you and run away immediately or do you cautiously give them a chance and socialize (at least until the point they mention HOW COOL YOUR HELLO KITTY KEYCHAIN IS)?

Alex, are you under the impression that only a small proportion of men might behave in a manner involving sexual, physical and substantial psychological violence and cruelty towards women? I ask because your evaluation of the risk does seem to consider this a long shot.

Okay. I quite aware of the risks that women face that most men do not and obviously every person needs to evaluate their own personal risk based on each individual situation. I certainly advocate that any and every person behave with at the least some degree of caution in virtually all social situations (what degree of caution that is also obviously depends on what the situation is and what you personally feel comfortable with).

There are A LOT of crazy and mean people out there (and a vast majority of them are MEN). Only if you are very lucky (read: LOTTERY lucky here) will you avoid having your life touched at least by one of them (or failing that meeting someone whose life has been touched by one of them). I don't think my previous post made it seem as though it was a case of one or two BAD apples, but I will make it clear now: there are a lot of BAD apples out there. Try to avoid them, because not doing so can result in a lot of not fun things happening in your life (somehow I feel like I am stating the obvious here, but whatever).

That all said, let me reiterate that I don't think running and hiding and behaving as though every potential "new" situation and person is an immediate threat is very good way of living life. That seems to me to be living in fear and as I said before I can't imagine living a life that isolated and that paranoid is very rewarding. But hey that's why everyone gets to make their own choices and live their own life, right?

so last saturday at Indie Club i got the number of this random girl i was dancing with, and tonight i take the Cold Call Plunge. i ask about her job, she's chatting away about people at work and i am asking politely encouraging questions. i propose a trip to this nifty short-film-on-demand place on Saturday, and she says that she might be going away for the holiday weekend depending on what her friends are doing, but she takes down my number and says she'll call back once she figures it out. hangup is mildly awkward because we both say bye at the same time.

now, i'm 80% sure i will never hear from her again, which is no big deal. what annoys me is that after all her work chat, she doesn't ask me a single thing about myself. i fear that she thinks i'm a creep because i didn't tell her my job, or where i went to university (which i don't usually volunteer because it's an Ivy League school and i don't want to sound like i'm bragging), or any of the other things i asked her about, but if you were talking with someone you didn't know, wouldn't you politely ask these things?

yeah, that's a strong sign that she's not interested. also that is about the most annoying thing ever.

i met someone at a show a few years ago. he walked me back to the subway after the gig, and then he asked me out. i didn't know ANYTHING about him, but i wasn't seeing anyone, so i said yeah, what the heck.

the date was excruciating. we had very little in common, and neither of us was that interested in each other's differences (i'm sorry, i'm just not that curious about the world of video game programming). i got to pick the restaurant -- indian -- but i should have let him pick because as it turned out he wasn't really a foodie and i think the meal was lost on him. we said our goodbyes after that. no drinks afterwards, no kiss goodnight, no "i'll call you." the end.

what if theres nothing to talk about after those things?