Is it ethical or moral to beat up somebody sporting a Nazi tattoo?

I mean, it's the 21st century and I just ran into a guy in a hotel had a stylized Waffen SS logo on his right calf.

I'm not saying such tattoos should be illegal, just that maybe sometimes they'll be accompanied by a good whupping.

bash the fash

Antifa 4 lyfe

an educated swallower of fascism

I would say the under-30 anti-fascist crowd needs no provocation, they will happily beat someone up for shit like that. The over-30s would probably wait until a person actually made trouble/acted on their beliefs, but violence is not out of the question.

Moral? Ethical? These don't come into it.

xp hee

what if you're this guy

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055437/Bryon-Widner-tattoos-Criminal-tuns-time-16-months-laser-surgery.html

yeah I was thinking abt the jailhouse tat issue, some of those dudes don't have a lot of choice about which gang to join.

that said my answer would be yes

guess it's a question for another thread, but I feel a little bad that I never believe racists who 'leave the movement' and renounce their beliefs have really done so completely

no

go for it, kingfish...

goole OTM

an educated swallower of fascism

― mookieproof,

tip of cap

btw it's not ethical imo

I don't think so either. Violence against someone for expressing beliefs, no matter how repugnant,seems a little, um, Nazi.

exactly imo

Violence would be unethical. The hotel kicking him out on the street would not.

nazi affils/affects are rather more than simple 'beliefs'

goole and chap OTM.

xpost ShariVari also

interesting take on it, ShariVari.

we had somewhat of a similar debate in the 'hotel kicking ppl out' thread iirc

some real internet hardmen itt thinking they can beat up the type of dudes who have nazi tattoos

lol fair point

actually no one said that

i may have imagined this but last time i saw nazi tattoos on tv it was on a frail-looking cashier at some nazi vegan bakery i guess

thread: suggest a good name for a nazi vegan bakery

national frontin

no yolk, on rye, the future

almond-flour macht frei?

our bites lack fries

these all suck, where is some dude

heh i've heard of calling on a muscular friend for backup, never a zingier tbh

'yeah well wait til my really sarcastic friend gets here'

l'ami d'escalier

i was xping obv

bookmarking this waiting for frogbs to enter tbh

no, 'frogbs' is the nazi french bakery

that's racist

only time I've seen these was on ex-prison dudes (ie Delancy Street movers) - found it unsettling but also just kinda sad cf. post upthread re: prison tats

RAwHOleWheAt ...?

by sporting nazi tats you're aligning yrself with a whole history of violence so the occasional confrontation is pretty much inevitable (and probly welcome)

another angle

Goebbels' Doughballs

no i dont think you should go around beating ppl up

^^^basic decent human behavior imo

that's just you tryin to lessen the workload imo

the only way this would work is if the guy would renounce his views because you beat him up, but I have a feeling like getting beat up by strangers probably just ups your horrible views on the world

'deserve ain't got nothing to do with it'

afghanistan.jpg

this is a really dumb thread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Rooney_CL.jpg

Is it ethical or moral to beat up somebody sporting a Man Utd shirt?

mandatory

no i dont think you should go around beating ppl up

― HOOS steen is it anyway? (Lamp), Wednesday, January 18, 2012 7:59 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^basic decent human behavior imo

― i love pinfold cricket (gbx), Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:05 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Tho I should say that I don't punch people ever, really, but goddamn if I didn't get that initial response of "man, what the FUCK wrong with you?" in my head.

not a poll thread ffs?

violence always overrated

idk i feel like it goes through periodical cycles of critical re-evaluation more than anything else tbh

great thread

our bites lack fries

this one was genius btw

an educated swallower of fascism

― mookieproof,

tip of cap

― (govtname)mac (darraghmac)

sticking with this tbh

I now remember this guy, and completely forget starting this thread.

http://www.ballerstatus.com/2012/07/26/miami-rapper-gunplay-explains-swastika-tattoo/

think we discussed that in some other thread. imho you don't want to be in a position where you have to explain swastika tattoo.

just say 'i came to hitler that motherfucker' and who wouldnt understand

holy shit the comments on that "there were many black soldiers in the nazi party.. look it up"
yeah dogg

How much better would it have been to give an answer eluding to the history of the symbol, which was originally a sign of peace in India with it's meaning; "to be good"? Instead, he just comes across as another idiot rapper, trying to grab some headlines by promoting ignorance and aggression.

no no dont you see its his symbol of genociding the bullshit, i dont know how this could be any clearer

"another idiot rapper, trying to grab some headlines by promoting ignorance and aggression."

but how much better would it have been is all i wanna know

http://places.designobserver.com/media/images/525_imagining.jpg

http://rosecityantifa.weebly.com/1/post/2014/03/alerta-antifa-oppose-the-white-man-march-this-saturday-march-15th-downtown-portland.html

Oh joy

some real internet hardmen itt thinking they can beat up the type of dudes who have nazi tattoos

― 誤 means 訳. 訳 means 侮辱. (Whiney G. Weingarten)

decent koolaid entrance imo

bump

defo feels like a friday on this board today

darragh would you beat up a woman who was wearing nazi cosplay

Only up to the safeword i spose

Safe word is "Junction".

Anyway we were talking about, or getting around to talking about, whether it was acceptable (or merely an understandable defence perhaps? Nuances of american left politics often escape less sophisticated cultures i imagine) to shoot trump supporters in the face in order to safeguard clinton utopianism.

surprised this thread didn't get revived a week or two ago.

http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/09/seattle-nazi-knocked-out-in-video-after-twitter-tracks-him.html

The answer is yes btw, it's also moral to murder them

that's kinda social darwinist of you

punching feels culturally accurate

murder would be a bit crass

This should have been a poll, with two options

-ethical
-moral

Dunno immoral I mean morality is just a childish kinda concept the way it's used here and most times

It's probably not too constructive.

Whiney also otm.

But if u assume that a certain % of ppl are going to get punched in the world in a given time period then it's good if more of them are nazis

It Took Twitter Only 90 Minutes to Track and Knock Out a Nazi makes it sound like Jack Dorsey & Co. deserve the credit directly. Punches all round.

A man wearing swastikas is punched at a protest against white nationalist #RichardSpencer https://t.co/NQx2rLelNW #SpenceratUF📷:Brian Blanco pic.twitter.com/DuK6b8VmIX

— Getty Images News (@GettyImagesNews) October 19, 2017

I would like a tattoo OF a nazi getting punched

That image would work pretty well -- I'd isolate just the arm/fist, the dude getting punched, and maybe the dude next to him also flinching (and maybe the :O guy above the arm), and I'd only keep a single swastika on the shirt but make it larger, so the line of the suspender is going through it like a "no" line.

Thinking about the question in the thread title. Tattoos last a long time and are notorious for being the source of later regrets. If i saw a guy with a Swastika armband at a political rally or on the street, I could be fairly certain he was parading his current asshole beliefs. otoh, seeing a tattoo by a swimming pool is much more nebulous. That Nazi tattoo could have been self-inflicted by his 15 year old self.

I'd say something first, like, "i see your tattoo; you a nazi for real?" This does limit the chances for a good sucker punch, but it seems more ethical to make sure of your ground first.

Maybe you could ask it in a way that falsely implies you think it's cool

Like "1488 brah?" "Yeah--" WHAM!

Why the fuck are Nazis a part of public life again?

I hate 2017

Because of a fairly ingenious and concerted long game strategy, tbqh. BTW I started to wonder today if the whole "hitler youth haircut" craze of a few years ago wasn't conceived on some 4chan thread as a way to further normalize nazis

I feel like at this point these photos need to be integrated into a collage, cryingeaglesantorum style

Like "1488 brah?" "Yeah--" WHAM!

ok lol

i need a representative from the Online Left to walk me through the 4ndy Ng0 thing that happened in portland

provocateur gets his ass beat, afaict

"These rallies are specifically organized for the purpose of violence, with makeshift weaponry and bloodied, tearful faces appearing in Portland with regularity over the years. HuffPost has reported on how far-right extremists who organize them meticulously plan to attack their ideological opponents and then claim victimhood when the dust settles."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/andy-ngo-quillette-antifa-proud-boys_n_5d1a1275e4b07f6ca5811e0c

is this the guy that got massively beat up, then made a bunch of money through a Gofundme off the back of it, then was ok again the next day to go on Fox news and other channels

or was that the baked alaska guy that lost his sight for a day due to an acid attack, but miraculously recovered after it turned out to be milk?

RTFA

its makes for a fairly reasonable subsidiary income and great brand boosting, it seems

so...did he actually get beat up by ppl claiming antifa?

* gathering of white nationalist/fascist/idiot men identifying as "proud boys" gather in portland, many of them traveling from neighboring states
* mostly-local counter-protestors who fall under the blanket of antifa (but may or may not identify themselves as such) show up
* the m.o. of the former group is generally to be loud and provoke conflict in an attempt to create violent incidents where they can cast themselves as victims of violence, not perpetrators
* "objective journalists" from right-wing or crypto-facist websites are sympathetic to them and this is known to all parties. their views are seen as sympathetic to the traveling band of idiots and they tend to hang out in the middle of things
* side note: media coverage of these confrontations is seen as a net negative by some counter-protestors and a handful will attempt to discourage media coverage of what they see as the tendency to "cover both sides"

* ng0 is a writer for one of the PB-friendly sites and has helped circulate a list of "antifa journalists," among other acts of publication, which is a spurious attempt to link anyone who covers such events in a way that don't fit his narrative as "antifa members"
* his efforts to downplay his own role, while seemingly exaggerating the amount of violence done (and minimizing perception of him as a provocateur) is straight out of the PB playbook, so it muddies the line between journalist/participant. a lot of outlets have bought his line that he's an innocent journalist

i'm not incredibly invested but that's how i break it down to an extent

this seems like a decent Vox article, I don't think it's clear yet what happened exactly?

"In footage captured by Portland-based reporter Jim Ryan, demonstrators douse Ngo in milkshake, punch him, and yell at him. In short, it looks a lot like an unprovoked, unjustified, reprehensible assault on an observer — a journalist — merely because the protesters don’t like him.

But the aftermath of the attack — the narratives both sides have spun out of the basic facts established by the footage — is much trickier to assess."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

mh you're forgetting one important part of the process which is the media's complicity in this, reporting stuff like "Antifa were throwing milkshakes filled with quick-drying concrete" with no evidence whatsoever and giving these guys basically unlimited airtime to cry on live TV

otm, the cement thing is infuriating

I think antifa needs to think about media strategy as hard as the alt right is. The fact that they do stuff that seems unfair or infuriating doesn't change that fact. They need to think about how stuff is going to look vs the benefit of doing it.

The civil rights movement figured out a way to do that against immeasurable odds, so I'm sure antifa can manage to do it too.

ah that vox article clarifies things thx

and man alive otm

my theory about the "quick drying cement" thing is that it was started by someone confused by the consistency/drying patterns of soy milkshakes

Antifa is a tactic not a movement

thank you

I think antifa needs to think about media strategy as hard as the alt right is. The fact that they do stuff that seems unfair or infuriating doesn't change that fact. They need to think about how stuff is going to look vs the benefit of doing it.

I get the impression that the subset of antifa that engages in violence is in "the movement" 90% for the violence, 10% for the politics. So they don't give a shit about strategy, optics, etc.
It's incredibly stupid to give proud boys and any other shitty alt right groups the confrontations they crave. DNFTT.

Idk, I feel like the problem might be the media breathlessly sticking a microphone in any random white supremacists face and giving them tons of airtime to spread whatever conspiracy theory they like and downplaying far right violence that ends in death while handwringing over spilled milk (l i t e r a l l y). Also, Ng0 wrote that fascist piece about Muslims in London. I can’t say I really care about the optics of splashing someone with milkshake when they’re out there carrying water for fascists and mainstreaming their ideas.

oh cool, this argument again

gyac otm

it's not about "optics" it's about media bias

I think antifa needs to think about media strategy as hard as the alt right is. The fact that they do stuff that seems unfair or infuriating doesn't change that fact. They need to think about how stuff is going to look vs the benefit of doing it.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, July 3, 2019 8:23 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

hard fucking disagree. the media needs to stop coddling these literal fucking fascists and becoming a bullhorn for their reprehensible ideas.

fashes get bashes

And on that note, ask yourself why the media (and this is a UK context, but I’m sure US has it much worse given different laws) is soooo cut up about fascists, xenophobes and bigots being no-platformed - especially those that already have lucrative platforms of their own - but they don’t consider fashy sites that publish the personal details of leftist activists a fucking outrage? Ask yourself why we heard about Farage getting milkshaked ad nauseum while Jeremy Corbyn got punched in the fucking head and the response was...muted? Ask yourself why any outlet anywhere in the UK would continue to give Nigel Farage airtime after he associated with Neo-Nazis, after he went on the air after the referendum and said “(Leave) won without a single bullet being fired?” Was Jo Cox even cold in the ground?

All this handwringing over being mean to the fash is just muddying water and ascribing good intentions to those who have none, and who’ve shown this at every opportunity.

exactly.

perhaps its because the media, even on the ostensible left, retains many of the structures that white supremacy and xenophobia depend/thrive upon.

nonviolence only works when the supporters of the opposing side are capable of shame

doesn't help that the police run protection for these groups nearly every time they organize

well that's just recruiting outreach

Re Andy Ngo:

Remember that time when Andy Ngo showed up at a bar in Portland with two self-professed neo-nazis + a convicted child rapist to film as 1 of them smashed a woman in the head with a metal baton, knocking her unconscious and shattering her vertebrae? Then Andy doxxed the woman?

— Antifa International (@antifaintl) July 3, 2019

They need to think about how stuff is going to look vs the benefit of doing it.

The 'look' that is aired to the public is not controlled by the antifa. It is selectively edited and framed according to the desires of media owners, who are able to warp almost any actions into whatever shape they please, or, if you do not cooperate with their need to defame you, they can and will ignore you altogether.

Even if you shrewdly incorporate a subtext into your activities, it will need to be subtle enough that it escapes the notice of the media, and probably be too subtle to be noticed by the public, too. That's why the 'street theater' strategy of making your opponents look absurd now fails. The media learned to stop publicizing it and the public never gets exposed to it any more. Social media is now the guerilla media front for both the far right and far left, and it is rapidly being oversaturated and losing its power.

The core problem is that the far right is favored by the powerful, because it can be easily manipulated for their benefit, while the far left is seen as a dangerous enemy who must be ruthlessly crushed. You're not going to solve this by media strategizing.

^^true. and remember, folks: liberals hate socialism/ the Left more than they do fascism.

Antifa regularly attacks journalists; it’s reprehensible https://t.co/m8pBaSfomzhttps://t.co/kF1Mx8k8O2https://t.co/HIB88lIY7T https://t.co/fTKVBg17CG

— Jake Tapper (@jaketapper) June 29, 2019

fishhook theory is real!

Jake Tapper should consider himself lucky he's not a journalist

doesn't help that the police run protection for these groups nearly every time they organize

― frogbs, Wednesday, July 3, 2019 9:48 AM (fifty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

especially, especially in Portland

My conclusions from two years of living in Portland:

* Antifa are idiots with no grasp of either tactics or strategy. They also aren't going to go away and don't give a shit about what I think of them so my personal belief that we have a perfectly good association football team and perhaps they should consider hooliganism? doesn't matter one whit. While I'm not a fan, I certainly don't plan on holding them responsible if one of them happens to burn down the Reichstag.

* Never trust a cop.

you almost gotta respect the grift

Andy Ngo tweeted and deleted: pic.twitter.com/nxPwe53I43

— nikki mccann ramírez (@NikkiMcR) July 4, 2019

Imagine how robbed of confidence he’ll be when he finds out his new friends don’t see him as one of them either.

hard fucking disagree. the media needs to stop coddling these literal fucking fascists and becoming a bullhorn for their reprehensible ideas.

― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 16:32 (two days ago) link

Well sure, that'd be nice. So maybe part of strategy would be figure out how to pressure media not to do that, as I'm sure some are already doing. But you can't yell away the lay of the land. The lay of the land is what it is.

Just because antifa actions get discussed in/on/by national media does not mean those actions are national in scope/have nationwide ramifications. They are localized actions intended to rid a given area of right-wing/fascist activity. They're not politicians, they're pest control. Media coverage has nothing to do with what they do. They should continue to maintain a near total media blackout and just show up wherever the Proud Boys or any other right-wing/fascist organization tries to meet or demonstrate, and beat the shit out of them.

unperson otm

cosign xpost

These guys are telling us very clearly what language they speak/understand; it would be rude not to communicate with them on their own terms.

Antifa are idiots with no grasp of either tactics or strategy.

maybe part of strategy would be

Antifa is a tactic not a movement

― president of deluded fruitcakes anonymous (silby)

unperson otm

also man alive, if the lay of the land is giving credence to fascist ideas as part of a "healthy debate that is protected by our democracy's free speech laws" or whatever the media wants to trot out, then i say fuck the media and fuck those who will apologize for it, full stop.

the media should be calling these fuckwads fascists and neo-nazis in every story that they write. if they're not doing so, then i view them as complicit.

Genuine lol @ tone policing the people opposing the fascists cos they’re not being polite enough

Like, “oh maybe opposing fascism is a good idea in theory, but the black bloc is so crude with their flares and milkshakes, and the cowards refuse to uncover their faces and debate Mr Supremacist Ethniccleanse in the battle of ideas”

right? it's absurd to the point of yes, comedy.

"oh hey mr. nazi, please don't mind my gay ass and my gay ass brown husband just trying to live, nice 88 tat!"

gtfoh with that nonsense.

there is something v deliberately disingenuous about "but are they REALLY Nazis?/who's the *real* Nazi?/hmmm makes y a think!" media narratives

see also various "I can't be a Nazi, I'm asian!"/"I can't be a Nazi, I'm GAY!" smokescreens

if they're not doing so, then i view them as complicit.

Sound thinking. Because they are complicit. But expecting that to change is whistling for a change in the wind. The corporate media will never go in hard against the neo-fascists and employees who try it will be disciplined, demoted or let go.

They are localized actions intended to rid a given area of right-wing/fascist activity. They're not politicians, they're pest control.

― shared unit of analysis (unperson)

It's not fucking working! If punching Nazis made them go away, by all means, punch away. It's not, though, at least not the way antifa are going about in Portland. The fascists are better fighters, better liars, and they have the police on their side. From what I've seen of antifa they show up with their balaclavas like it makes them Batman and they're up against fucking riot cops, and who do you think is doing a better job of intimidating or instilling fear?

Hey, they can prove me wrong anytime. If they fucking succeed at something, anything, maybe I'll stop thinking of them as untrustworthy and ineffective street brawlers. All they've accomplished right now is getting clicks and getting people like me to talk bollocks about them. Any asshole can do that, and as far as I can tell most assholes do.

You're not paying attention if you think the idea of Antifa is to make Nazis "go away" - this is self-defense. It's reactive, not proactive, and it's that way for a reason.

wish kingfish was around but he posted this on FB:

"Nice vid summarizing the milkshake bullshit from the last week, and the seriously dishonest media coverage of it from CNN et al"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRCLdzEB9uM

Philosophy Tube has a good antifa vid iirc

unperson, silby, everyone else otm!

the people who are actually showing up to these things from the fascist side are organized to the extent they're not from the area -- there's an actual coordinated time/date/location that they are setting

antifascist organizations exist primarily as a mechanism to get the word out that these people are coming to your area. people showing up to counterprotest aren't an organization -- they're a reaction, even if some of them are there are more organized than others

"antifa are violent to reporters" is a non-starter because that's not a coherent group. it's like saying "area schoolchildren" or "local business owners". which ones? what schools or businesses? is it a representative body of those groups?

From what I've seen of antifa they show up with their balaclavas like it makes them Batman and they're up against fucking riot cops, and who do you think is doing a better job of intimidating or instilling fear?

Proud Boys have showed up an independent researcher and Democratic committeewoman's house wearing full armor while she wasn't home here in Philly.

anyone arguing on the side of these fascist pigs, or arguing against antifa, doesn't understand the stakes.

(thread)

(thread)

I research the far-right.

Almost a dozen members of the violent SPLC-designated hate group Proud Boys paid me a threatening near-midnight visit Saturday, asking a neighbor if he knew me and instructing him to tell "that fat bitch" to stop. pic.twitter.com/uHCqFCNDxr

— Gwen Snyder is uncivil (@gwensnyderPHL) July 2, 2019

Violence and intimidation have always been a prominent page in the far right handbook. In other contexts it gets called terrorism.

Listened to right-wing talk radio this week, which is essentially the voice of the Republican Party, and the shows were all about how bad and dangerous antifa is. I've met antifa people and have attended antifa protests...it is not a "club", it is for people who want to oppose right-wing racists. So the fascist spin on it is mainstreamed and distributed by corporations now. If some suburban Republican's kid wants to protest a local Nazi gathering, they are joining with a "dangerous" movement. This kind of geezer moral panic is decades old.

^^ yep.

well worth reading that whole Twitter thread, btw. it is fucking terrifying.

You're not paying attention if you think the idea of Antifa is to make Nazis "go away" - this is self-defense. It's reactive, not proactive, and it's that way for a reason.

― sleeve

i may or may not be paying attention but what other ways are there to get rid of nazis, which is what unperson's quoted post says precisely their goal is? because they're not even sending any of these motherfuckers into the hospital. look i'm all for solidarity but i don't see how antifa are doing shit to protect marginalized groups from fascism. i'd love it if i were wrong on that, and honestly i should probably just back off now because pointing out their very obvious failings accomplishes nothing, i know it accomplishes nothing, i just get tired of people online talking like these are the heroes who will save us from fascism.

I don't have any sense for Thruthout's credibility or lack thereof, but here's a much more positive take on antifascism in Portland

https://truthout.org/articles/massive-anti-fascist-coalition-rebuffs-far-right-proud-boys-in-portland/

see also:

As a sociologist, I have been formally studying militant anti-fascism for well over a decade. In this formal research, I interviewed both militant and non-militant anti-fascist activists and conducted ethnographic research with formal antifa groups. I have spent time in meetings, observing activism, and engaging in the culture of anti-fascism.

What I found in my interviews and experiences is that militant anti-fascists experience tangible and immediate threats from fascists and respond out of a practical need to defend themselves from those threats.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-antifa-in-america-militant-anti-fascism-isn-t-terrorism-it-s-self-defense-1.7425726

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvgZtdmyKlI

Perfect.