ILX as home, clusterfucks, and "the balance"

I love ILX. I've spent a lot of time on boards & forums, but outside a brief stint on stonerrock.com a few years back, this is only place on the internet I've ever found that feels like home. I love the people, the culture, the design & modding, the dumb memes, the long memories, everything. One of the things I like best about ILX is that it's free of the endless, stupid trolling and bickering that seem to characterize so many other online conversation places. People here are generally smart, funny, well-informed and decent to one another. It has a certain balance.

I've noticed, however, that I'm sometimes annoyed by what I perceive as a tendency towards orthodoxy of thought. I get the impression that good ILXors are "supposed" to share certain opinions and attitudes. We should be smart but not showy about it, liberal in thought and deed, a bit snarky, and intolerant of intellectual pretension. Better to post a good "deal with it" gif than to take yourself too seriously. I respect these attitudes, as I see how they help maintain the balance, and it's the balance that makes ILX the comfortable and home-like place it is.

Still I rankle. I find myself in "clusterfucks" all the time. I'm drawn to them and I create them. I get the feeling that I'm not a balance-keeper by nature. I post in an uncool manner and break the flow. I don't mean to do this, at least not consciously, but it happens too often for the culprit to be anyone but me. I guess I wonder how other people feel about this. Not about me, but about ILX as a comfortable place and how you fit into it, the beauty and terror of clusterfucks, how to be a good citizen, that kind of thing...

just checking to see how long that was. it's long.

:(

You are part of the balance. I like that you earnestly dig into things. It sets you up as a target for a little bit of clowning but who cares? Don't change.

The discourse-clusters don't bug me. It's the petty vendetta clusters that turn me off, like the perennial case of deej v WGW.

thanks, jon. i do get a bit self-conscious abt my nerdiness...

i guess i haven't noticed u be in as many clusterfucks as of late

once a clusterfuck happens I usually bug out. not because I find them annoying, but because they update so fast I can never be bothered to try to catch up.

i guess i haven't noticed u be in as many clusterfucks as of late

― dave coolier (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, February 16, 2012 3:41 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

woo, you missed a good one in the "feminist theory" thread last night.

you post about music I like sometimes so I could care less

clusterfucks are part of the "balance", surely?

It could be worse Contenderizer. You could be frogbs...

Pretty sure I like ILX to be more chill and less rough-&-tumble than the average* poster likes it. It bugs me a little that the low-drama board I prefer is referred to as Cuddlestein Mountain. I don't see it that way, but recognize that perceptions differ. I don't think I need that grain of sand/conflict to grow a pearl.

*lol, like there's an average

Seriously though, ILX - like any online forum - has its own unwritten 'rules'. "Orthodoxy of thought" exists in every (online) community, and I think ILX is a place that leaves plenty of room for anyone to thread outside those waters. ILX isn't dogmatic, I think, it is flexible and as a single organism stretches itself to embrace minority opinions. That threading outside what you see as the "orthodoxy" actually attributes to the very same boundaries of this place. The only real "rule" is that however far away you thread from the "orthodoxy", you do it with some class and respect. I can't say you haven't done that. You certainly try to keep it clean of bickering or trolling.

I hope you're not of the mind I meant anything personal with my tone in that thread--I'm just especially sensitive lately to men dominating discussion in ostensibly feminist spaces (like, say, the feminist thread), and you seemed in that thread to be carrying on a conversation that your conversation partner had dropped out of, so I was trying to invite you to cool your heels and let the women speak up on the subjects they were interested in pursuing in that thread.

i first heard of ILX in a thread on another board about places on the internet to talk about music. in that thread, some women complained that ILX was a "boy's club" and unfriendly to newcomers. so i decided to check it out lol.

were they right? i mean ILX is mostly guys, and a lot of folks do get bounced. otoh, this place does seem to be pretty strongly feminist relative to other music sites.

Cuddlestein Mountain sounds awesome. Would rather ski down that then Mount Trashmore.

I'm just especially sensitive lately to men dominating discussion in ostensibly feminist spaces (like, say, the feminist thread)

That thread was started specifically so everyone could talk about feminist theory and women's issues not as a place specifically for women to discuss those things so it just seemed a bit strange to purposefully start such a thread and then have people get angry at the men participating therein. Granted Contenderizer was posting quite a lot but that's his usual style afaik.

clusterfucks are part of the "balance", surely?

― seandalai, Friday, February 17, 2012 12:01 AM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark

I hope you're not of the mind I meant anything personal with my tone in that thread

not at all, HOOS. you cool. appreciated the advice, tbh. there were some people taking swipes at me there, but you didn't seem to be one of them.

(the "conversation partner" thing is weird tho. a hoy hoy described my interactions similarly in the clusterfuck thread. i really didn't think of myself as primarily talking to or with any particular person in the feminist thread - though some were clearly more inclined to respond to me than others.)

i think ilx is sort of a "boy's club" because the internet (msg boards esp) are sort of a "boy's club" - not that this excuses whatever, but i think it becomes a bit overstated and hand-wrung around here sometimes as our problem.

i first heard of ILX in a thread on another board about places on the internet to talk about music. in that thread, some women complained that ILX was a "boy's club" and unfriendly to newcomers. so i decided to check it out lol.

were they right

No. ILE isn't. ILM is.

I post in an uncool manner and break the flow. I don't mean to do this, at least not consciously, but it happens too often for the culprit to be anyone but me.

I joined that club years ago :(

like 11 years ago.

every time i kill the thread i just try to convince myself that i said something so unbelievably otm that subsequent conversation became unnecessary

zs otm

I like your approach.

how could that not be true?

ilx is currently more cuddlesteiny that at any other time i've been posting/reading imo, some ways that's good, some ways i preferred it zingier.

~hugs~

/snuggles

My daughter frequents a messageboard that, from her description, is the actual Cuddlestein Mountain. It sounds horrible, to be honest. The biggest fights are when someone reads ahead a couple of chapters in a board book club and accidentally posts a minor spoiler.

ilx is currently more cuddlesteiny that at any other time i've been posting/reading imo, some ways that's good, some ways i preferred it zingier.

this is very true. i've been posting here for 5 or 6 years, and it was a much more rough and tumble place when i first arrived. overearnest clusterfucks used to get imagebombed and andwhatted out of existence almost as fast as they could get started.

i think everyone feels like they post in an uncool manner and break the flow. loads of people have expressed the fear that they are a threadkiller. it is a thing you worry about on a fast-paced message-board, where it's easy to feel like your value as an ilxor comes about through your communicative skills, whether that's in getting your ideas across or in being a person with whom others readily communicate and who speedily communicates tp others.

everyone also thinks there is an ilxor norm or an orthodoxy of thought which they are somehow divergent from in a way that makes them at times feel proud, or awkward, or anxious, or superior. i guess a question is: if you are a person who is in that position of diverging from the apparent ilxor norm/orthodoxy, and you are in an argument against people who seem to be embodying that norm/orthodoxy, what is it you want to do with the argument? are you trying to break down the orthodoxy by sheer argumentation? are you trying to chip certain people away? are you trying to prove that your ideas are better? are you trying to explain yourself because you feel judged for diverging from the norm of a place that you find homelike?

are you conducting a social experiment?

^^ these are questions i ask myself when i am arguing, they are not particularly advice

xpost hahaha and that one especially

ilxor norms are p good but they're not unchallengeable tbh

But, in any case, c sharp minor is a rarity in that the longer her posts are the better i think i like them

and, y'know, the question might well be 'is ilx a good place, generally, to argue about things' and the answer is prob 'yes' and vs irl or god forbid the rest of the net that answer ime is 'fuck, yes'

when ilx was down i was on facebook A LOT and i started worrying that my non-ilx facebook friends were gonna start thinking that i was completely insane. i never worry about that here. hell, i'm practically normal here.

a la nabisco, contenderizer, i can't BELIEVE how much and how fast you can type sometimes. but this isn't a bad thing or anything. i might not read every word, but i read, like, every five words.

Come for the gently falling blood, stay for the high class of clusterfuck.

haha Scott otm, Contendo is fast

and, y'know, the question might well be 'is ilx a good place, generally, to argue about things' and the answer is prob 'yes' and vs irl or god forbid the rest of the net that answer ime is 'fuck, yes'

― beware of greek bearer bonds (darraghmac), Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:57 PM (6 minutes ago)

ha, yeah

aw, dmac <3

(not gonna lie, my first instinct was to make my next post a massive textbomb)

i always feel like: no momus no clusterbility

I left for a long time and then came back because I missed the TV threads. I haven't found anywhere else that talks about television properly. Okay, I haven't looked very hard, but still, my point stands, dammit.

well its like if you are lucky enough to talk with a group of people in the real world (or a person) and you suddenly realize that you don't have to explain every damn thing out of your goddamn mouth. they know what you're talking about. its a great feeling. cuz a lot of time in life you will find the opposite. you start talking about a show and they are all: what's that? who's that? no, i've never seen that. what's that about? it's tiresome.

I'll be honest, contendo: I don't follow you down every discursive wormhole that you find yourself in, but I def think ypu are part of the balance and character of this great site and a terrific knowledgeable poster besides.

"I keep trying to get away from ILE/ILX...and they PULL ME BACK IN"

Contenderdude if it helps, I've often found your posts quite enjoyable, if only because (and I don't now know if you intended this!) you are often a kind of devil's advocate on a thread. I'll find myself reading it thinking "I want to disagree with a lot of this but I am too inarticulate/not well read gaarrr" and then you'll express something I'm thinking and do so better than I ever could have. So for that I for one appreciate yr posts.

...which makes it sound like I hate everything everyone else says haha, I dont mean to imply that, but it is sometimes v hard to participate on ILX if you didn't get immersed in academic culture. The academic obfuscation thread is a spot on example of it. That kind of discourse make me shudder with frustration because it feels so *exclusionary* to me.

tl;dr lol I am dumm.

you are often a kind of devil's advocate on a thread.

which is funny, cuz i feel that too, and it's not like i really meant anything in choosing my username, but...

There is nothing wrong with dogma or orthodoxy of thought.

I don't really want to participate in this thread, I don't want to have a clusterfuck about clusterfucks, I have grown to be deeply suspicious of meta, because meta about processes can be helpful, but meta about *other people* is a loaded weapon.

The thing to remember about "orthodoxy" is how situational it is. That what looks like "I'm so edgy and challenging the orthodoxy" from one angle in one place, looks like "I'm reasserting the hegemony" from another angle.

And also another thing to keep in mind is that, when dealing with some issues, especially ones like race and gender and sexuality, for you it's "playing devil's advocate" but for other people, this is stuff that affects the material quality of their lives. That being challopsian about, say, Pulp lyrics, is a cute and fun game. But the beliefs that people hold about things like gender and race have real-life tangible consequences that might not be immediately visible to someone who has never been on the receiving end of them. These things are not just emotive for no reason.

The 'not having to explain EVERYTHING, people generally know what you are talking about' is one MASSIVE plus, urgent/key, and the point.

I was referred to once on Wiki as being an ILX 'irritant'. After a couple of minutes of "I'm so offended u barst" I calmed down and reflected that it wasn't such a bad thing. Inasmuch as I create threads (not so many thesedays) that cause people to question the orthodoxy, or just 'react' to a really stupid question or scenario, or just plain 'what do you think, I don't know' type q's. Then again, I'm less of an 'irritant' than other more 'famous/infamous' ILXors...

There's just the right amount of people here at any one time. More, and the papers would start to get peeky. Less, and you wait 3 days until someone goes 'pardon?'.

The thing to remember about "orthodoxy" is how situational it is. That what looks like "I'm so edgy and challenging the orthodoxy" from one angle in one place, looks like "I'm reasserting the hegemony" from another angle.

that's a v good point, was talking abt something similar in the gender thread yesterday, that who you are greatly affects the substance of what you say.

re the "devil's advocate" stuff, i seldom try to do that. i feel i often wind up in that position, but it's not intentional/conscious. i'm a bit curious by nature.

ILM was very polite and well-spoken in 2001. You would be amazed.

"Devil's Advocate" is a really bad idea on a 'permanent' board, someone may well google and think that's what you really think.

It was very polite and well spoken in 2001, except when it wasn't, and then it was furious and rude.

yeah, i've never advocated a point of view i don't actually hold, except when it's clearly for lols (e.g., "property is theft" on the socialisty thread)

xp

wtf

property *is* theft

Just because you ~really believe~ something doesn't make it not-false, or not-problematic, or anything, really.

hey you guys

why don't anarchists like earl grey

because ~proper tea is theft~

woop woop

I don't know, Why don't anarchists like earl grey?

Xpost TIMING!

i don't have a watch for comedy! :(

i once knew some people whose name for their flat was "theft" because DYS

they were dicks tbh

First rule of comedy, Spike!

The 'not having to explain EVERYTHING, people generally know what you are talking about' is one MASSIVE plus, urgent/key, and the point.

This is a lot of it. Also, on the television threads, I enjoy the fact that they become a repository for arguments, episode recaps, links people pick up from elsewhere, rumours, arguments about rumours, all (well, all the ones I read anyway) without descending into the kind of personal attacks on the people involved in making the shows that annoy me on other areas of the Internet. Like, I really enjoy reading the TV Club articles on the AV Club, but some of the commenters are frightening. Perhaps I lead a very sheltered online life, but hey, that suits me.

Russell Howard's "truth" comedy on last night (very old, probably on Dave or some such)

.. about how Nick Cage (or was it Cave? I didn't hear) won't eat any animal that doesn't 'make love with dignity'

Amongst RH's various remonstrations and funnie, it sorely needed the old "You don't understand, Dignity is the name of his dog"

Frankly, I'd have heckled that.

just because you ~really believe~ something doesn't make it not-false, or not-problematic, etc

true for contenderizer & everyone else, tbf

http://www.smartbalancecoupons.org/wp-content/uploads/_smart-balance-coupons-1.jpg

Was gonna post Van Halen's Balance, but I had forgotten how disturbing it was.

this is a really stupid thread

I am happy I returned. (I doubt others cld care less. Lol)
Part of why I am happy: I will not be that shaken when someone (here) is angry with me. Lol. In the past my day would be ruined. Ha. But ilx is such a fun place. Always was and always will be.

Just because you ~really believe~ something doesn't make it not-false, or not-problematic, or anything, really.

― White Chocolate Cheesecake, Friday, February 17, 2012 2:33 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

yeah, of course. but we all continue to believe, right? and in our interactions, we work out ways to be, collectively. hopefully, we all enjoy the process, at least more often than not.

ty, lamp

this is a really stupid thread

― 99x (Lamp), Friday, February 17, 2012 10:54 AM (31 minutes ago)

bullshit, are you criticizing self-reflection in others just because you don't like to do it yourself?

i think Lamp is trying to provide balance

Also, on the television threads, I enjoy the fact that they become a repository for arguments, episode recaps, links people pick up from elsewhere, rumours, arguments about rumours, all (well, all the ones I read anyway) without descending into the kind of personal attacks on the people involved in making the shows that annoy me on other areas of the Internet. Like, I really enjoy reading the TV Club articles on the AV Club, but some of the commenters are frightening. Perhaps I lead a very sheltered online life, but hey, that suits me.

― trishyb, Friday, February 17, 2012 2:36 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

yeah, this is a very good point. i often get the feeling that a lot of folks prefer ILX when it leans more towards being a repository of what i think of as "content": links, facts, quotations, updates, enthusiasms, joeks, gifs, videos, zings and so forth, and less towards being a forum for heavy-duty ~argument~. i don't mean heated argument, necessarily, more the sort of wormhole-spiraling back and forth on the head of pin that i so often get myself into. like the ideal ilxor is one who brings good content and doesn't spend too much time clogging up the boards with opinion-junk. i wonder if this is a product of the fact that a number of ILXors are professional opiners, and they get enough of that crap at work...

i think a lot of ilxors like debate, i don't think the sound of two heads clashing is a debate

just like ilxors like content, but there's an aversion to "too much data without interpretation" -- that leads to "aspie" name-calling.

i don't think the sound of two heads clashing is a debate

yeah, i have a hard time letting go of my point when it's challenged, which can lead to a lot of "patient" (obstinate?) restatement. i don't know that this is a character flaw, necessarily, but it's definitely part of my character.

that leads to "aspie" name-calling.

As in people start calling each other "aspie" or that "aspies" do the name-calling?

definitely the former, whether the latter is true is up to you!

I like engaging in debate, I just don't have the time or patience to do it on ILX much anymore.

bullshit, are you criticizing self-reflection in others just because you don't like to do it yourself?

im criticizing garbage ilx threads

what don't u like about this thread, lamp?

xxp Which is not intended as a critique, btw! I enjoy *reading* ILX debates.

lamp is enemy? to live is to learn.

tbh, angry "this thread sucks" posting has always baffled me. but i suppose it's how standards are maintained, or at least expressed.

what jaymc said. I would love to engage in debates, but I only want to if I can provide thoughtful, well researched responses. It's all I can do to actually get through all the clusterfuck threads (which I actually like reading).

yes its p clear that coherent and succinct posting baffles you (xp)

lamp, buddy, you aren't exactly the model for coherent and succinct posting

laughs out loud

like i think there was even a thread sorta dedicated to your problematic posting style fyi

is there something you feel you need to say, lamp? i mean, i know i'm kind of a nerd, but jeez...

no im just being a jerk. i think this sort of self-serious navelgazing isnt what 'ilx is about' but i probably shouldnt have bothered opening this thread

like i think there was even a thread sorta dedicated to your problematic posting style fyi

???

you even posted on it!

oh lol i know the one you mean

it was quite epic "iirc"

i think this sort of self-serious navelgazing isnt what 'ilx is about'

hey, well at least that's on-topic

a general rule i try to follow, if not always successfully: if i have made my own point to my own satisfaction there is no need to continue to restate it each time someone posts something i disagree with. besides i dont really believe you can "argue" people into agreeing with you directly like that.

yes you can

no you cant. (see?)

yes you can!

(following own rule)

i'm convinced!

damn, you're right

ha! i see what you did there.

recursive threads are great!

what was this lamp thread

yeah, i have a hard time letting go of my point when it's challenged, which can lead to a lot of ""patient"" (obstinate?) restatement. i don't know that this is a character flaw, necessarily, but it's definitely part of my character.

― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Friday, February 17, 2012 11:45 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a general rule i try to follow, if not always successfully: if i have made my own point to my own satisfaction there is no need to continue to restate it each time someone posts something i disagree with. besides i dont really believe you can ""argue"" people into agreeing with you directly like that.

― ryan, Friday, February 17, 2012 12:40 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And also another thing to keep in mind is that, when dealing with some issues, especially ones like race and gender and sexuality, for you it's "playing devil's advocate" but for other people, this is stuff that affects the material quality of their lives. That being challopsian about, say, Pulp lyrics, is a cute and fun game. But the beliefs that people hold about things like gender and race have real-life tangible consequences that might not be immediately visible to someone who has never been on the receiving end of them. These things are not just emotive for no reason.

― White Chocolate Cheesecake, Friday, February 17, 2012 3:43 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think these are some helpful thoughts wrt some of the difficulties you ran into on the race and gender threads. You seem to take positions based on some idea of reasonableness and then dig in your heals and aggressively and obstinately repeat your purportedly reasonable ideas. The effect is like a brick wall that keeps moving in front of you being all nonchalant I'm just a brick wall why do you keep running into me.

yeah. also, what you perceive as "orthodoxy of thought" may be a hard-won point of view borne of years of personal experience that you don't have.

i get really clipped in threads about race and gender because defending my views on those topics is exhausting/painful.

i'm just repeating what WCC said, i guess

i try to remember that this is a white screen that people are looking at on their phone or at work. that's a general care for the 'ilx community' right there.

there's a certain amount of distillation that i feel like i need to do. and once i've mounted an argument once that's basically it unless the conversation really takes a turn.

i feel like i can go on a bit myself honestly.

I let myself get too intimidated by 'serious' threads like race, gender. I usually lurk and read everything everyone posts, but always with a mind of like, oh there's no way I could ever say anything that's going to add to this discussion. Which is more a compliment than anything, all you motherfuckers are so good at sounding smart! lol.
I think it's just more about trying to post more regularly so I get a feel for who everyone is and know the tone of the conversations so I know when to dip a toe in and when to bow out. I'm getting better about handling conflict, but I'm still not great so the thought of ending up in the middle of a clusterfuck still kinda scares the bejabbers out of me.

All that being said, the thing I like about ILX is kind restating what's been said upthread...everyone here expresses themselves really well, in any conversation topic, whether it's bagels or tv or politics or what. It's much much more welcoming and cool than anywhere else I've experienced. And even when it's a clusterfuck it's not usually poisonous or awful or OTT.

vegemite otm with her first sentence. Generally best to stay out of clusterfucks which i do, but i do seem to unwittingly start minor ones all completely unintentionally but thankfully no major ones except the metal board fiasco. I do seem to offend people unintentionally too and know it has to be my fault as it happens to often. So i understand where contenderizer is coming from.
So if ive ever offended anyone here or anywhere else i apologise and i really didn't mean to offend.

You seem to take positions based on some idea of reasonableness and then dig in your heals and aggressively and obstinately repeat your purportedly reasonable ideas. The effect is like a brick wall that keeps moving in front of you being all nonchalant I'm just a brick wall why do you keep running into me.

― Unleash the Chang (he did what!) (Austerity Ponies), Friday, February 17, 2012 11:24 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

it's a two way street, though, right? if i say something, and get challenged, and respond to the challenge, and get re-challenged, and respond again, and cetera, then it's not really my fault alone. it's more the product of two points of view each wanting to make sure that its validity is asserted and accepted. not saying that i couldn't choose to gracefully have my say and walk away from time to time, but generally speaking, this is equally true of everyone involved in such disputes.

And tell me if i offend you. Im always willing to say sorry if ive done wrong, Much better to work out things than let them fester. Im not one for holding grudges so never understood those who do.

yeah. also, what you perceive as "orthodoxy of thought" may be a hard-won point of view borne of years of personal experience that you don't have.

― horseshoe, Friday, February 17, 2012 11:27 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

that's certainly true, but again, it applies to everyone's point of view equally. and not everything that seems to challenge a given point of view really does. just because my argument doesn't square precisely with yours doesn't mean that i'm calling you wrong. seemingly opposed statements can be equally true in different ways or from different perspectives.

All that being said, the thing I like about ILX is kind restating what's been said upthread...everyone here expresses themselves really well, in any conversation topic, whether it's bagels or tv or politics or what. It's much much more welcoming and cool than anywhere else I've experienced. And even when it's a clusterfuck it's not usually poisonous or awful or OTT.

― Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, February 17, 2012 12:26 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, this this this. also, i probably could take some tips on when it's best to zip it and nod agreeably. my last two posts came out more combative than i intended, and the advice Ponies and horseshoe were offering was useful. all apologies, and point(s) taken.

someone said in the "academic obfuscation" thread that i seemed "very sure of myself" and i suppose that's true. i take pride in that quality, but it wasn't offered as a compliment...

Well, here's me jumping in: contenderizer, not every single thing you disagree with, or need clarification on, needs to be hammered out and examined and agreed upon. peace doesnt' always have to be made with contrary points of view. I understand sticking to your guns and wanting to be heard, but everyone wants that, right? it's like you always end up defending your position, even if it's a minor point of contention. Which kind of exhausts you on a larger conversational level, because you're not engaging in the discussion as a whole, you know? Like, there's too much minutiae, maybe?

sometimes it's okay to let things go to serve the larger conversation, you know? Listening/reading can help make the posts you do make more valuable, because you're actually engaging with more than one single point of view. It's like you're always debating within the debate, and people stop listening to what you have to say because it is always drilling down into smaller and smaller things, there's nowhere for people to go but smaller, you know?

That's how I see it from a lurking point of view. Not trying to make you feel attacked, just seems like you are looking for answers/feedback.

can a mod lock this thread please?

only fair given ilx clusterfuck historical society is still in locked-thread purgatory imo

*clears throat*

there's some folks as have a point to make
and there's some folks as like to make points
and sometimes the latter is also the former and sometimes they ain't
way i see it

Well, here's me jumping in: contenderizer, not every single thing you disagree with, or need clarification on, needs to be hammered out and examined and agreed upon. peace doesnt' always have to be made with contrary points of view. I understand sticking to your guns and wanting to be heard, but everyone wants that, right? it's like you always end up defending your position, even if it's a minor point of contention. Which kind of exhausts you on a larger conversational level, because you're not engaging in the discussion as a whole, you know? Like, there's too much minutiae, maybe?

sometimes it's okay to let things go to serve the larger conversation, you know? Listening/reading can help make the posts you do make more valuable, because you're actually engaging with more than one single point of view. It's like you're always debating within the debate, and people stop listening to what you have to say because it is always drilling down into smaller and smaller things, there's nowhere for people to go but smaller, you know?

thanks, VG, that's helpful. in some ways this is about social politics, what works and what doesn't. it's just very hard for me to let go when i feel challenged, which is kind of ironic as i'm not at all hesitant to challenge things. we all architect the worlds we live in, i suppose...

only fair given ilx clusterfuck historical society is still in locked-thread purgatory imo

― flopson, Friday, February 17, 2012 12:45 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

that thread was a bit different, though. though this thread has mostly been about me and my posting style, i'd hoped it could be a forum for talking about what we think ILX is, what we like about it, how we interact w it, etc. kind of cuddlestein mountain, i guess, and meta as hell, but i'd hoped it would be more positive than negative.

I understand sticking to your guns and wanting to be heard, but everyone wants that, right? it's like you always end up defending your position, even if it's a minor point of contention.

Also, defending yourself over and over instead of ever accepting a rebuke or bowing out somehow or even getting mad and resorting to lolzy zings is nagl, I think. The supposedly non-aggressive insistence that everyone prove themselves to you again and again to your satisfaction and then never being satisfied is in fact a kind of aggression. Whoever said the thing about the moving brick wall otm.

I like you, dude. I've never butted heads w you before on anything, I don't think. The current neurotic reposting and reposting before anyone can even get a word in strikes me as being fed by something maybe happening off ilx or some kind of general anxiety. Hope everything is cool w you. Maybe take up knitting or sthing?

did you just use architect as a verb?

Also, defending yourself over and over instead of ever accepting a rebuke or bowing out somehow or even getting mad and resorting to lolzy zings is nagl, I think.

umm, i'm trying to be cool and accepting, but re: the feminism thread (where you and i most recently interacted), i think this is terribly unfair. i took a lot of direct and sometimes harsh abuse in that thread, and tried my level best to remain friendly, open and positively engaged w the subject at hand. i'm not perfect by any means, and i know that i get a bit obsessive about responding to everyone who engages with me, but i absorbed a lot more anger and zings than i dished out.

i appreciate your concern about my life, fwiw. things aren't great atm, but i think i'm doing okay. clearly burrowing into ILX more than is healthy, we've all got our escapes...

this is skewing way more towards "opine here on contenderizer" than i'd hoped :/

I don't mind giving my opinion, but for me the clusterfuck stress fell away when I mostly stopped caring whether anyone agreed with it.

did you just use architect as a verb?

i spose i did...

You can disagree, even vehemently, with ilx orthodoxy but in my experience you need to be a) ok with not winning over the hearts and minds of ppl who disagree w u and b) ok okay w yourself to back out of thread when you're no longer having fun. If you need ppl to agree with you or acknowledge your pov, I think it'll always be a frustrating experience. Arguments on ilx anyway are ime more playing to the crowd than winning over your debate partner

WmC, Mordy otm. This is what i'm trying to work towards. Like, "this is just a thing I'm saying, nothing bad is going to happen irl if no-one agrees with me."

baby steps out of the office
baby steps down the hall...

Crowd = lurkers btw

lol, i've never even considered that there might be lurkers

i just figure that the people posting are the only people reading. this is ridiculous oversight on my part, but i think i'd get weirded out if i started imagining crowds of lurkers reading my posts. o shit, there are crowds of lurkers reading my posts.

Whoah who has time to care about lurkers? Not I, said the cat.

yeah. also, what you perceive as "orthodoxy of thought" may be a hard-won point of view borne of years of personal experience that you don't have.

― horseshoe, Friday, February 17, 2012 11:27 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

that's certainly true, but again, it applies to everyone's point of view equally. and not everything that seems to challenge a given point of view really does. just because my argument doesn't square precisely with yours doesn't mean that i'm calling you wrong. seemingly opposed statements can be equally true in different ways or from different perspectives.

― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Friday, February 17, 2012

Dude, I'm going to try this a slightly different way.

Apologies if I'm misrepresenting you, horseshoe, but it seems like you and I are coming from very similar places on this.

Sometimes, what looks like "orthodoxy of thought" is the conversational space equivalent of hard-fought-for and won civil rights.

In our society, not everyone's points of view have always been given equal weight. Things are not always applied equally to everyone. What looks like "orthodoxy of thought" is actually "redressing the imbalance to be more fair to everyone." There comes a point where it's no longer just "stating your views from a slightly different perspective" - you are actually pushing the conversational space back to that old, unfairly weighted angle. People who have fought so long to get the floor righted will get rather angry when someone comes along and tries to make it slanted against them again.

xp Although quite often I wonder if any of my office colleagues are secret readers and I should be a) more circumspect b) worried.

i resolve to be less obdurate, but to win over all lurkers anyway. greetings to the invisible.

did you just use architect as a verb?

i spose i did...

― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Friday, February 17, 2012 1:22 PM (7 minutes ago)

that's really my only beef w/you. in fact, i think you were involved in one of the first discussions that i took part in here? I think it was the thread about things that we now see as creepy but seemed perfectly innocuous at some point in history?

CONTENDERIZER WE ARE WATCHING YOU

wrt to lurkers just imagine that you are the john cena of messageboards and they are yr millions of fans

that might not help

it's a two way street, though, right? if i say something, and get challenged, and respond to the challenge, and get re-challenged, and respond again, and cetera, then it's not really my fault alone.

This is kind of what I'm talking about. You are crounching into a defense mode and doubling down. Nobody cares if it's your fault alone. Nobody cares who's fault it is.

it's more the product of two points of view each wanting to make sure that its validity is asserted and accepted.

Maybe? But maybe you should reflect on the fact that we are identifying behavior that is somehow different form most other posters. You seem to be abstracting and generalizing too much, and that appears to be affecting your ability to listen and process some very specific points.

FYI I'm not here to beat up on you. I don't feel negatively towards you as a poster on this board. I just feel like you can unintentionally blow up a thread while trying to be the opposite of a troll.

Also, defending yourself over and over instead of ever accepting a rebuke or bowing out somehow or even getting mad and resorting to lolzy zings is nagl, I think. The supposedly non-aggressive insistence that everyone prove themselves to you again and again to your satisfaction and then never being satisfied is in fact a kind of aggression. Whoever said the thing about the moving brick wall otm.

Laurel also otm. I might not call it a kind of aggression, but it can def get a little maddening when I am trying to engage you on a topic.

o shit, there are crowds of lurkers reading my posts.

I think stet said we get a quarter-million hits a day? So yeah, ALL EYEZ ON U.

but aren't a lot of em just looking for simpsons porn or Alicia Keys' Ass?

but they take a long loving look at contenderizer's ass before moving on

fwiw I look at ILX as the fun thing I bob onto every 5 minutes or so while I'm waiting for something to finish running/compiling or when I get bored with writing up a functional/technical spec document and need to blow off steam; this is why I tend to go for more hit-and-run short posts than long essays

mostly I am here to entertain myself, and hopefully others are entertained as well; said entertainment can be the dissection of current affairs or trading bad joeks back and forth, I'm not super picky

what I DON'T come here for is lectures and unsupported soapboxing

Sometimes, what looks like "orthodoxy of thought" is the conversational space equivalent of hard-fought-for and won civil rights.

In our society, not everyone's points of view have always been given equal weight. Things are not always applied equally to everyone. What looks like "orthodoxy of thought" is actually "redressing the imbalance to be more fair to everyone." There comes a point where it's no longer just "stating your views from a slightly different perspective" - you are actually pushing the conversational space back to that old, unfairly weighted angle.

you and i see things very differently, WCC. i tend to view society as a mass in which many different points of view do, can, and frankly should coexist. i also think it's important to push at all assumptions, even those to which we're personally attached - perhaps especially to those we're personally attached. this isn't an attempt to make society be one way or the other, but rather a means of developing understanding and (hopefully) accessing something like "truth". i understand that not every question or assertion will be met with social approval, but i think there's reason to ask and say anyway. i don't know that we can come to an accord on this, which is both funny and a bit sad because our values are so very similar underneath.

Maybe? But maybe you should reflect on the fact that we are identifying behavior that is somehow different form most other posters. You seem to be abstracting and generalizing too much, and that appears to be affecting your ability to listen and process some very specific points.

i think the option i'm left with is "point taken".

so, point taken.

but aren't a lot of em just looking for simpsons porn or Alicia Keys' Ass?

― sarahell, Friday, February 17, 2012 3:38 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is basically why I'm on the board, and tbh ilx is very bad at simpsons porn and Alicia Key's Ass.

i think you were involved in one of the first discussions that i took part in here? I think it was the thread about things that we now see as creepy but seemed perfectly innocuous at some point in history?

"architecting" used to seem innocuous but now appears creepy?

it is true that i do my architecting in the nude though

Alicia Key's Ass.

ask and ye shall receive

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fvWFam2uhi0/S-ghWUuV20I/AAAAAAAAB5M/41o_W-bMPtQ/s1600/ak.jpghttp://cloud9design.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/donkey-well-1.jpg?w=850

what I DON'T come here for is lectures and unsupported soapboxing

This is what I hate more than anything else.

YOU'RE DOING IT AGAIN. You're setting up your personal thoughts/preferences for how the world "should" be as if they're equal to established leveling strategies, marked out by all kinds of people and groups as being central to healing a wound that exists among groups who might be having certain conversations.

This is a false equivalency! Because there is not "room for all types" when all types are not equally valid. There's no room, afaic, for anti-global warming speakers, or anti-choice speakers, or lots of other stupid, discarded ideas, or even just out-moded ones, through no fault of their own. Your ideas are not bad but you're unwilling to learn anything about how they might grow or change, you just keep at them compulsively.

By forcing your argument on everyone repeatedly no matter how they address you or your ideas, you are becoming an immovable object in the way of actual learning--YOUR actual learning. And then being patronizing to WCC about it!

tbh if hardwon theory and practice can't cope with a little bit of devil's advocate soapboxing then it's not worth much; I'm grateful for contenderizer's points in the academic theory thread- not just because they mirror my laymans's concerns (/reflect my own prejudices i guess) but also because they've been able to draw some very interesting and illuminating insights from j., ryan, judith - thoughts of value that wouldn't have been expressed on that thread and that I wouldn't have read if not for con's posts. keep it up, yeah?

ilx is at its best when:

quippy
jokey
sympathetic "yeah man i BEEN there too, sorry"
funny
enthusiastic about stuff we love
w/s
shitting on the right wing and commiserating about how fucked the countr(ies) are

I think I said it elsewhere but I felt a huge shift in how I felt/interacted about ILX once I hooked up with the ILNFL peeps, partly due to having so much fun on the World Cup soccer threads when those popped up.

ILX definitely at its best with a collective enthusiasm, whatever it is.

contenderizer, i doubt you are thinking of the academic language thread as a clusterfuck, but since some people were sort of ragging on your persistence there, let me just say that i didn't think you were particularly obdurate. you were expressing very widespread and often sensible ideas that stimulated productive responses from others. and some of the things your respondents were speaking on behalf of are, i think, really actually hard to take at face value or at the say-so of people who identify as understanding things that you yourself don't. (for lots of reasons, but also pretty evident one: there IS a lot of garbage and a lot of bad academic writing which tends to obscure the value of the similar but good stuff. so there's a case to be made.)

j. I'm absolutely in awe of your ability to patiently and clearly defend your position from a position of knowledge, it's really helpful, ty.

xp ILX also the place where -occasionally- someone says something you won't hear anywhere else. like the way the discussion of Destroyer's Kaputt here is absolutely the best on the web.

AND AND AND Mordy's essay on computer game crit!

I am terribly fond of ILX but I also try to keep a certain distance

And tell me if i offend you. Im always willing to say sorry if ive done wrong, Much better to work out things than let them fester. Im not one for holding grudges so never understood those who do.

― pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper)

yeah THIS...

My feeling is "We all say stupid shit... personally I say a lot of stupid shit! Feel free to call me on it, cause I'm never purposefully trolling or trying to be a jerk."

thomasintrouble otm imo.

I'm sure that "hardwon theory and practice" can cope.

Human beings, on the other hand, all have their breaking point eventually.

Just popping in to say that ilx mos def feels like my home on the web. Whatever it is that I might bring to the mix in terms of value,just lately I feel like I just haven't been "bringing it" very much or very well. All I can say is that it's a damn good thing that ilx is willing to forgive a lot of stupidity and dullness, if it comes from a long-established poster. For that, I thank you all.

'hardson theory and practice'

http://i9.tinypic.com/4cj0wvb.jpg

O M G HE IS MASTURBATING!

Anyway, these kind of threads pop up now and again. I think they are okay. Sometimes it's fun to reflect and whatnot. If you don't like it, ignore, I guess.

" imagine that you are the john cena of messageboards "

wait till cuddlestein mountain turns heel.

I interpret that gif as portraying a gentle and loving thread-massage.

to completion

it's cold, needs warming up imo

ppl obv have different ideas about what is at stake in an ilx thread. i'll admit i tend to sympathize more w/ contenderizer's pov that a thread is a good place to argue and discuss even ideas that may be provocative. i take WCC's point too that there can be serious stakes even in an ilx thread, tho due to my own sympathies i'll admit i'm always a little skeptical about exactly how much is at stake in a place where Banaka can pop up to proselytize about the singularity. i assume neither poster wants to censor the other one, and if they do they can either cop to it on the secret fascism thread or hit flag post. i say this bc a meta thread like this seems to be trying to carve out a safe space for the posters to do their shtick, but even if ppl seem like they are rhetorically trying to delineate & circumscribe the boundaries of conversation, it's not like you can do that without IP banning posters. some of ilx's "wrongest" posters have become most beloved mascots so unless you're worried about the dreaded sb, say what you'll say and let ppl who disagree do so vehemently. (imho.)

like a certain someone has been trolling the fuck out of the action poll for days and some ppl are rmde and some are arguing and some are probably amused. who cares even if the entire board disagrees w/him? if ppl get bored of the shtick they'll stop responding to it

I do tend to read a lot of threads and not contribute if I imagine my post just being ignored because it didn't have much to say. Even on the feminist thread I typed out a post about my experiences or lack of (including science and football) and then didn't bother posting it because, idk, it didn't add anything? Although then, discussion turned to science and football but by that point there was too much to keep up with.

like a certain someone has been trolling the fuck out of the action poll for days and some ppl are rmde and some are arguing and some are probably amused. who cares even if the entire board disagrees w/him? if ppl get bored of the shtick they'll stop responding to it

Can you actually name one instance where people got tired of someone's schtick and stopped responding to him/her?

i cannot!

By forcing your argument on everyone repeatedly no matter how they address you or your ideas, you are becoming an immovable object in the way of actual learning--YOUR actual learning. And then being patronizing to WCC about it!

― drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Friday, February 17, 2012 1:50 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

look, laurel, i like you and like your posting in general, but this seems to be spiraling out of control. i don't think that i've said anything particularly outrageous lately. most of the people in the debate in question, both on the "feminism" thread and on the "gender" thread to which i moved the discussion when it seemed unwelcome in the former space, seemed to wind up agreeing that it was, at the very least, an appropriate thing to talk about. i've absorbed a lot more insults, snideness, and patronization than i've dished out. despite that, i think i've learned quite a lot in the process.

anyway, thanks for the feedback, hugs and penis gifs, y'all

I guess I see morbz as more of a don rickles type thing

Look, Contenderiser. I understand that you *feel* that you were not treated fairly on the feminist theory thread, and you think that you were massively insulted and mistreated by, well, being asked to provide citations or studies for some wild theorisation that you were doing. I get you may have felt challenged by having the fact that you have privilege pointed out to you, and this may have made you feel somewhat uncomfortable. You felt patronised, because possibly for the first time, you were not automatically accepted as having authority on a subject, while women were. But let's be serious for a moment, and talk about what we mean when we say we are made to feel "unwelcome" in a space.

When you say you feel unwelcome in a space, you mean that some people made you feel ~not very nice~ about the unfounded opinions you were so generously sharing with us.

When I say I feel unwelcome in a space, I mean that I have to routinely put up with shit like this, when I am trying to post about music in an internet forum dedicated to that artist:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6213/6388377387_7871d0a8b3_o.jpg

You talk about "how much you've learned" - but the way you continue to treat Laurel and I, because you're still so outraged at being called on some BS, it just sounds to me like you want to be patted on the head and told that you're a nice person and oh weren't the nasty feminists mean to you. It's white boy tears, mate, white boy tears. You aren't making things better by continuing to patronise us, you're just reinforcing the opinions that we formed in the first place.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj242/donaldparsley/DOM.gif

xp holy shit :-(

hey, WCC, if you want to discuss the science behind my arguments, check the "gender" thread, where i've posted some stuff. would love to discuss it further, with you or anyone else. otoh, if you just want to insult me, then maybe you could write me a PM or something? cuz, seriously, this is getting gross.

and, uh, just as helpful-type hint, if you want to go slinging words like "patronizing" around, you might want to proof your posts for the things you're accusing others of. cheers.

so tell me: am i glad i have images off at the moment?

Here we go again. Like I said, you want to come in here, and have everyone pat you on the head, and reassure you that you're still a ~nice guy~ while you continue to do exactly that same behaviour that caused all the problems in the first place.

Read that post. Read that post, understand that that is what many women on the internet have to deal with every day, and then tell me again that you were so terribly insulted in the feminist thread.

I have nothing more to say to you, and this is solving nothing, it's just making me more angry and you more defensive. I'm out.

the reason I post on ILX is that we don't (normally) have sick folks like that guy on that aphex board. IDM fans must be living in a world even more fucked-up wrt gender than our already fucked-up-wrt-gender world.

(granted I know the internet has a horrifyingly immense capacity for misogyny, racism, homophobia, and misanthropy in general but mostly against those who have already been knocked-down, I'm just saying IDM messageboards could possibly be even worse)

Guys on that IDM board also didnt really care for a bunch of naked RDJ pics suddenly appearing everywhere on their board, but I guess thats different.

(sorry I cant sit back and see all of that forum get slandered like that, theyre mostly good people. Unless we'd like to hold ILX to the same accountability because of Calum?)

(and I have nothing else to say on that or this topic)

tell me again that you were so terribly insulted in the feminist thread.

i don't think i said i was "terribly" insulted. i said i was insulted. i was. this is a simple statement of fact. you called me a variety of names. it's not a big deal, and i wasn't in the least offended by any of it.

i'm still not even sure what part of my "behavior" you're objecting to, exactly. if it has to do with my views as expressed in other discussions, i'd really rather talk about it in the appropriate threads. and if it's more personal than that, again, i think you should PM me. this discussion has moved beyond board-appropriate disagreement, imo.

Trayce otm x 1000

since i have images off, i'll ask again, a bit more directly this time: does this thread now need to be marked NSFW?

FWIW when people feel unwelcome on ILX it's usually because some people are making them feel ~not very nice~ about their opinions and not because people are flinging sexual abuse at them.

xp no

contenderizer you can look at the image, it's kind of central to the argt in question, no wangers

"wangers" hee hee

sorry to be so immature, I need to find better outlets for my daily quota of using the word 'wanger'

As someone who has copped direct sexually-based leering and come-ons and abuse from ILXors via IM and email I can't say I agree ILX is completely blameless in regards to this stuff.

But thats veering off topic possibly.

(and also wasnt in public, in fairness)

thanks for the tips, abbbs. christ, that is disgusting. my sympathies, WCC.

xpost true. didn't mean to imply that ILX doesn't have its own terrible abusive history.

it does. i've said some stupid shit from time to time myself (nothing like that, but you know).

Anyway this thread's gone in a bit of an ugly direction, best if this topic is dropped maybe.

"a bit"

"trolling" = you disagree with me

i do!

i am sorry that my "diagram of morbius" got lost in the hateclot

:*(

this thread needs more cuddlestein, less puddle of muddlestein.

currently accepting: hugs

(hugs) for all ilxors

Guys on that IDM board also didnt really care for a bunch of naked RDJ pics suddenly appearing everywhere on their board, but I guess thats different.

i'm not familiar with the board in question so maybe i'm missing some nuance..but this statement REALLY troubled me. there is a VERY real difference between something like nude image bombing, which may be distracting/offensive/sexually aggressive in a generalized way, and graphic sexual remarks targeted at a specific individual with the intent to harass/defame/frighten, what have you.

IDM fans must be living in a world even more fucked-up wrt gender than our already fucked-up-wrt-gender world.

http://www.wikizic.org/1-043-043739-Aphex-Twin.jpg

it's like, i wasn't a huge fan of NewGod porning up the place a few months back, but it is wildly different from someone targeting me with lewd descriptions of my genitals, and trying to lump them into one category of "bad behavior" feels really icky to me.

I by no means meant to defend anything as gross as what the person posted in that img had said, it was disgusting. But again, I want out of this conno right now.

hey, you're not the only one

Time for an intermission. Everybody hug on 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sn1UqbbbqQ

let's all take acid and look at bugs

squeeeeaaaurgh!

not huggin on no pianopede

i agree with what ryan and goole and horseshoe said

ill just add that if ur posting style is going to be "challenging ilx orthodoxy of thought" you should just own that and be aware that it will make people dislike you. the only thing worse than challops is challops + handwringing.

challops + handwringing + broccoli is the worst

yeah, probs, but i'm a little surprised at this point that my posting style is the thing ppl are taking issue w itt

just saying

xp

i did not see this outcome coming.

ile is the worst!

worst what?

worst thing to read on the internet

i'd suggest you need to read more internet, but that would be terrible advice under any circumstances

ILE: providing a service since whenever

The measure of a board is not that it gets abusive postings like that one, it's how everyone else reacts to it.

yeah, that's how i figure it