Getting married and blowing off your friends without warning, C/D S/D

I say dud. Has happened to me a couple times, proving the point that growing uP is when you REALLY find out who your friends are. Only bright side is that these people made a point not of just dumping me, but everyone they were tight with in college.

http://rlv.zcache.com/third_wheel_tshirt-p235099821989351349zxjgg_400.jpg

Classic

better without the word "off"

or "your friends"

Not so much the getting married, but my wife got completely dumped by one of her oldest friends upon the arrival of their first child. They don't even answer her emails. No reason given just severed all communication. They can't be that busy.

Dud. Actually, getting married in general a dud. Don't feel the need to register my relationship with the government or any other institution. Much prefer the feeling of being bf/gf, completely unofficial, with nothing holding us together except that we want to be.

And we won't blow off our friends, either...

in other news, sun shines

I think those of us without kids sometimes underestimate the amount of time/energy it takes to deal with them.

Not so much the getting married, but my wife got completely dumped by one of her oldest friends upon the arrival of their first child. They don't even answer her emails. No reason given just severed all communication. They can't be that busy.

jeepers

i feel like i've been similarly terrible in some related instances, but then again i am terrible at calling ppl in general. hence why i am parked on the internet. it's sort of non-threatening to a neurotic pincushion such as i

these people never really liked you, were just looking for an excuse to stop answering your emails

Most of my friends who vanished when they had kids have resurfaced now that those kids are over 4.

Not so much the getting married, but my wife got completely dumped by one of her oldest friends upon the arrival of their first child. They don't even answer her emails. No reason given just severed all communication. They can't be that busy.

I don't know their particular situation but a new baby can really wreak havoc with your life. Not to mention that she might be struggling with post-partum depression, they're both getting no sleep, etc. I don't know how recent this happened, but if there's room to interpret their behavior favorably, I suggest you do it.

these people never really liked you, were just looking for an excuse to stop answering your emails

i'm guessing you were being facetious, but nah, like i have friend i adores but the fact they are married with kids leads me to pause at times before contacting them. raising children or even just being married is potentially massively time-consuming. it's projection, but if i were in their shoes i feel like i would be desperate for any spare shards of alone-time not involving family or work that i could possibly gather up

It's not just time consuming (tho it is that too), it's also very limiting. Especially if you're nursing - you're now tied to this baby and can't really leave them for extended periods of time with a babysitter (since they get hungry). You can't really tote your baby to a movie, or a bar to grab drinks. Our close friends basically stopped by to say hello, and invited us over for dinner, but didn't have any expectations and were never offended when we had to blow them off bc of baby stuff.

In my example, the baby is about 2 now. My wife thinks it's because her friend's wife doesn't like her, but she was always nice to us when I met them, so I dunno. She still sends him happy xmas emails but that's it now. It makes me a bit sad for her because they were friends from high school.

We had a close friend from college (he was my brother's roommate and became close w/ my family -- visited my parent's house during vacations and such) who started to date someone a few years ago. We were friendly with his girlfriend even though she was pretty sketchy (she shoplifted despite being in her mid-20s, weirdly estranged from her family who apparently moved towns without ever telling her). Anyway, the longer he dated her, the more he fell out of communication until the relationship degraded to such a low point that not only was no one in my family invited to the wedding, but we only found out that he was getting married through a friend of a friend (and not through a mutual college-era friend either, through a more obscure shared connection - bc he blew off all his friends). I spoke to him briefly online a week or two ago to tell him my brother's wedding was that weekend and he was pretty cool (chilly). I still have no idea what happened. I guess I believe his current wife wanted him to disconnect from all his previous relationships and that he complied. The whole thing was super weird and upsetting at the time, though now I'm over it.

I don't understand at all why getting married would change anyone's social life. Kids, absolutely. But my day-to-day has changed pretty much not at all since I got hitched.

agreed, but being in a relationship vs not being in a relationship is a big change

I've known a few different men who get submerged when they get into a new romantic relationship - like they are unable to have a relationship with a new partner and maintain their friendships, social cliques, etc. I don't know why this is, but I've noticed it a bunch (the above story probably being a most dramatic example of it).

being in a relationship vs not being in a relationship is a big change

Oh sure, that's true. But if you've been dating for a couple of years before you get married, then the marriage itself shouldn't make much of a difference.

Don't feel the need to register my relationship with the government or any other institution.

― everything else is secondary (Lee626), Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:42 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is an all time challop

I'm pretty sure Bill Cosby had a standup bit about this? Wife turns on her husband saying "that is the LAST time your nitwit friends are setting FOOT in this house" etc.

"just as long as you're both happy" is my attitude

I couldn't be in my relationship without registering it with the government. xxpost

the thing about not registering your relationship with THE MAN is that if something happens to one of you, it suddenly becomes much, much harder for the other person to be there or to settle up affairs in the event of death

like, if we weren't married and I died, my share of our assets could and would revert back to my parents instead of my wife, who would basically either have to buy my parents out of our home, our car, etc, and any insurance/retirement money would get split down the middle

not a particularly nice thing to do to your life partner at a time when they are grieving IMO

(this is also why I think marriage equality is a no-brainer)

xpost

well, as a colonel i'd expect nothing less

:)

With a new baby this is WAY more understandable

Xpost

DJP is reminding me of how pension entitlements and boring financial stuff are the main reason why so-called-Mrs The Real Dirty Vicar and I really ought to get married sometime.

I mean so-called-Mrs The New Dirty Vicar, obv.

My sister has been engaged to the same guy for almost 10 years, but for some reason they've decided not to get married. Not so much a choice, as they haven't got round to it and don't see the big deal. Which is fine in one sense, but they've got 3 kids, and it makes me kind of anxious from a financial perspective, if something happened to one of them.

I haven't had anyone cut me out of their life because they got married, but I did have one friend cut me out her life when she went back to her abusive husband. I have tried emailing her but she's never responded -- I don't know if she feels embarrassed or that she'd be judged for her choice, but I just want to know if she's okay.

about the only good thing with kids is that you can unambiguously put all the assets in a trust in their name with the other parent as an executor, but then that means a situation where the kids can yank everything away from the other parent when they hit 18/21/25/whatever age they come into full ownership of the assets in the trust

I have a very good friend who cut me off completely after new relationship started. Mutual friend informed me that new boyfriend is kind of a loser (although polite and friendly enough to my lost friend) and that I was cut off as preemptive strike because I wouldn't have liked him and she didn't want to deal with that. Even though I kinda see the logic, still sucks.

that's some brutally pragmatic life management

yeh wtf

Are you Jack Donaghy?

the fact they are married with kids leads me to pause at times before contacting them. raising children or even just being married is potentially massively time-consuming. it's projection, but if i were in their shoes i feel like i would be desperate for any spare shards of alone-time not involving family or work that i could possibly gather up

I'm married and have kids and I have run into this a lot. WTF people. If you want to hang, contact them!! Then if they are too tired/whatever then they will say so!!!! Like, I've actually experienced this ish in reverse for the most part - I am eager for spare shards of non-family hanging out but suddenly (in some people's minds) I've become this different animal, this dad-man, who surely wouldn't be down for [x]. But it's more necessary than ever!

^ this is kind of my problem with the overall thesis of this thread

Like, Saturday afternoons with my kids is not really when i want to hang out with you. Thursday night, now we're talkin. But I think you find this a lot with people who don't have kids. This idea that kids totally CHANGE YOU, man, that suddenly you're neutered in some indefinable but permanent way, that you have become a hater of all fun that doesn't involve, I don't know, making your own pickles and planning vacations. And that maybe there is even something correct about this. Sad, but correct. Cause you're like, a DAD now! There is a great FEAR attached to kids and what they'll do to you. I know, I had it. And then it turns out, actually you're the same person, and kids go to bed at 8pm.

Yes. When n/a and his ladywife were about to have their child, I contacted the wife and told her I was planning on keeping in touch with her after a grace period for settling in/hosting family. The same goes for you, jaymc, should the occasion arise. I mean, I'm sure it helps that I'm not like "HEY LET'S GO OUT AND GET WASTED ON MONDAY NIGHT! I'LL MEET YOU AT THE BAR AT 10!!!" but am pretty cool with parent and kid-friendly scheduling and events.

I don't think I cut anybody out of my life when I got married but I did when we started dating. I think it was related to a shift in priorities or maybe just interests. We started dating in my late 20s and I was growing exhausted by my party party funtime friends, who seemed content to live in the same small college town and go to the same bars and play in the same terrible bands and have the same crappy jobs. I didn't really cut them out so much as slowly detach (it helped that I moved to three different states during the detachment process). So, kind of what n/a said.

the thing about not registering your relationship with THE MAN is that if something happens to one of you, it suddenly becomes much, much harder for the other person to be there or to settle up affairs in the event of death

like, if we weren't married and I died, my share of our assets could and would revert back to my parents instead of my wife, who would basically either have to buy my parents out of our home, our car, etc, and any insurance/retirement money would get split down the middle

not a particularly nice thing to do to your life partner at a time when they are grieving IMO

(this is also why I think marriage equality is a no-brainer)

― Vaseline MEN AMAZING JOURNEY (DJP), Tuesday, March 6, 2012 11:58 AM (5 hours ago)

DJP is reminding me of how pension entitlements and boring financial stuff are the main reason why so-called-Mrs The Real Dirty Vicar and I really ought to get married sometime.

― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, March 6, 2012 2:08 PM (2 hours ago)

You can make sure this doesn't happen by writing a will, a living trust, and other such legal documents (if you're in the US this book is a worthwhile guide). But yeah, there are some legal protections that are only available to married people, at least in the US and UK (some parts of Canada and all of New Zealand are more enlightened, where discrimination based on marital status is illegal). It should be noted however that there are several financial disincentives to getting married as well - indeed, there are people (mostly women) in jail right now who would not be in any legal trouble at all if they weren't married to their tax-evading husbands.

And while marriage equality is a no-brainer, that equality should be amongst singles & marrieds as well as opposite-sex & same-sex. For example, the county-operated pool and gym I'm gone to for the last 10+ years used to charge about $300 yearly membership fee for individuals, or $400 for families. "Families" of course meant yourself, spouse, and kids that lived in the same home - so if I lived with my gf and she wanted to join up, we'd both have to pay $300, and thus be penalized $200 for being single ($600 vs. $400 if we were married). They fixed that several years ago; now there's a "two people, same address" option that costs the same as a married couple (your kids are always allowed in free), but I'm fairly certain the change was made because gays and lesbians raised a stink about it, which sparked widespread disapproval in this fairly liberal town. Same-sex marriage isn't legal in my state (yet - it's up for a vote later this year), but I wonder if there'd be as much outrage at this sort of this if it were only unmarried hetero couples being discriminated against. I hope legal same-sex marriage doesn't become an excuse not to eliminate all the discrimination the legal system still has against single people, who of course may or may not actually want to be single.

the problem is that if you aren't married, it is easier for your family to contest those documents/arrangements

tbh going to jail because your spouse screwed with your taxes doesn't make sense, that seems to me to be precisely why probation exists as an option in our judicial system

Not married, but one of my friends has disappeared completely since he shacked up with a girl named Sprinkles and her kid. Apparently she's really jealous that he dated one girl in the group prior to her, and all of his old friendships/relationships.
None of us has seen him since August or so, except for a wedding in October and for an hour on Thanksgiving Day. The disappearance hurt some feelings, but I guess I'm cold because my reaction was 'eh, if he wants to let her control his social life and cut off all his friends, fuck him.'

Sprinkles? oy

I hope legal same-sex marriage doesn't become an excuse not to eliminate all the discrimination the legal system still has against single people, who of course may or may not actually want to be single.

tbh, I think society does have something at stake in encouraging people to get married, which is why there's systemic favoritism towards married ppl over singles.

Her last name is the singular and she started getting called Sprinkles in the Army, at least it's not a stripper stage name or anything.

Have you ever found a copy of Sprinkles in the Army in the woods?

tbh, I think society does have something at stake in encouraging people to get married, which is why there's systemic favoritism towards married ppl over singles.

Somehow the institution of marriage has survived tens of thousands of years without being artificially propped up by the government. Really, I think even without subsidies, many ppl will want to get married anyway. And I think society is best off letting people decide whom to marry on their own. If we have lots of people getting married just so they can get on their spouse's health insurance plan or get a tax break, we'll have loads of weak marriages between ppl who didn't really have a good relationship to build upon, and frequent marital breakdown and divorce. I don't think that's in society's interest.

I wasn't claiming that the institution of marriage needs government incentives to stay propped up.

So what sort of "systemic favoritism" are you referring to?

I think society does have something at stake in encouraging people to get married

Call me dense or contrarian but I've never understood why.

I mean, its not like it makes/helps people *stay together*. Not anymore anyway.

people (mostly women) in jail right now who would not be in any legal trouble at all if they weren't married to their tax-evading husbands.

They or their lawyers must not have heard of the IRS's Innocent Spouse Relief

if society has "something at stake" in promoting marriage, why not just automatically grant marriage benefits & obligations to all couples who produce offspring? like, having kids = being married. benefits/obligations could be cut off or redirected when/if the couple decided to separate or reproduce with other partners.

Somehow the institution of marriage has survived tens of thousands of years without being artificially propped up by the government.

I'm sure we both agree about numerous codified (healthcare, visiting rights, tax rights) and non-codified (cultural legitimization) examples of favoritism from which the institution of marriage benefits. I don't think they exist, though, because they're being used to artificially prop up that institution. I think they exist because marriage is central to our experience of society (no doubt because of its own entrenched privilege in the last few thousand or more years of human history), and remakes society to self-perpetuate. I think society, as it exists, has an interest in that perpetuation, and that is why these incentives exist*.

Really, I think even without subsidies, many ppl will want to get married anyway.

I agree.

And I think society is best off letting people decide whom to marry on their own.

I agree. I don't think society should tell people who they should marry, or who they can't marry.

If we have lots of people getting married just so they can get on their spouse's health insurance plan or get a tax break, we'll have loads of weak marriages between ppl who didn't really have a good relationship to build upon, and frequent marital breakdown and divorce. I don't think that's in society's interest.

I think that's an interesting argument, though I don't really know how to judge the value of it. It doesn't feel historically true to me, but for all I know it very well may be.

*I also think marriage is malleable and has looked many different ways historically - and it will continue to shift and change. I think we're in the middle of a huge shift right now in how we envision marriage re: same sex marriages. In a lot of different cultures there has been sui juris marriage, and I think that's a really great way of thinking about human relationships. It's not really so common in the US today, though, since so many laws require formal legal documentation of marriage, afaik.

if society has "something at stake" in promoting marriage, why not just automatically grant marriage benefits & obligations to all couples who produce offspring? like, having kids = being married. benefits/obligations could be cut off or redirected when/if the couple decided to separate or reproduce with other partners.

That's a kinda awesome idea, I think? Modified sui juris?

i'm writing a letter to arby's about it as we speak

contenderizer connects

Somehow the institution of marriage has survived tens of thousands of years without being artificially propped up by the government.

tens of thousands of years? really?

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2011/4/21/31f2233d-923e-4197-b439-b1783c69be02_thumb.jpeg

also, ppl have got married for societal&economic reasons since like always! ppl getting married for tax breaks or immigration or w/e is nothing new, it's only the social acceptability of divorce (and ALSO of a single person constituting a household) that's currently at quite a high.

Yah dont christians like blathering on about how they invented weddings, wedding @ caana and all that crap.

maybe i am making this up in my head.

> why not just automatically grant marriage benefits & obligations to all couples who produce offspring?

There's a http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=106182,00.html,000 per child tax credit, and other perks.

Mordy, I suppose my vantage point is from someone who grew up surrounded by shaky relationships - just about every married couple amongst my family and friends either ended in divorce, or (far worse IMO), settled into a rut but stayed together anyway, probably out of inertia as much as anything.

In my experience, marriage leads to complacency. You know that getting divorced is difficult and expensive, so you stay married, but you don't have to keep your relationship vibrant because the marriage contract holds you together, and before you know it, it's "I love you but I'm not in love with you", which evolves into 'I don't even really love you all that much anymore, but at least we get along ok, so we'll stay put'. I see it and hear it all the time. I've heard so many women complain of how their husbands don't woo them anymore, how they don't do those instinctively romantic gestures like they did back when they were just dating. I'm like, "of course he doesn't - he doesn't need to. You're married!". I hear it from the guys too. "My wife used to be such a hottie, but now she never works out and eats all the time and is overweight". Hey dude, you're married, it's not like your wife needs to look pretty to attract men anymore. (I'm sure there's lots of examples that aren't appearance-related, but that's the last one I actually heard so I'm using it).

When you're not married, and there's nothing keeping you together except that you want to be, that sort of complacency never sets in. And that, paradoxically, is what holds us together.

$1,000 per child tax credit. (boy did I screw up that link....)

Lee, that can happen... but it's by no means true of all marriages. Do you really not know anyone who actively enjoys their marriage and is having a great time even after many years?
That appearance thing is kind of offensive. Most people I know aren't in as wonderful shape at, say, 30 - typical marrying age- as they were at 21, married or otherwise.
I sure as hell didn't get married to be brought flowers all the time and be 'allowed' to get fat.

The appearance thing happens anyway, its called Getting Old.

I'm married and have kids and I have run into this a lot. WTF people. If you want to hang, contact them!! Then if they are too tired/whatever then they will say so!!!! Like, I've actually experienced this ish in reverse for the most part - I am eager for spare shards of non-family hanging out but suddenly (in some people's minds) I've become this different animal, this dad-man, who surely wouldn't be down for [x]. But it's more necessary than ever!

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand)

very true about the reverse part.

> Do you really not know anyone who actively enjoys their marriage and is having a great time even after many years?

I do, but they're in a distinct minority.

>That appearance thing is kind of offensive

I fully agree, which is why I was careful to mention that was what I'd actually heard someone say. I've seen his wife, and I think she looks fine at her current weight.

Not sure why you think LTRs don't also lead to being in "ruts"? With most of my friends who are in couples, I can't even remember if they're married or not. It doesn't seem like the important part of the happiness equation.

http://pampelmoose.com/mimg/randy_quaid.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1291738055059

I hear ppl say all sorts of wrong and offensive shit but I don't cite it as truth.

lol otm

Somehow the institution of marriage has survived tens of thousands of years without being artificially propped up by the government.

First, marriage in any modern sense hasn't existed nearly that long. A few thousand years, perhaps. And for much of the time it has existed, marriage has been propped up by rigid social demands, with disgrace and ostracism as the chosen reward for non-compliance. Government mandated benefits are a much kinder and gentler alternative to the traditional punishments meted out to sexually active unmarried couples.

'sexually active unmarried couples' sometimes meant 'married' during various historical periods

yah tbh Im glad I dont live in a time where I am made to marry some schmuck because he has 4 more cows than some other schmuck, or is strategic to the war in Prussia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSt9l5PQs1U

Wow. I never imagined the turns this thread would take...

'sexually active unmarried couples' sometimes meant 'married' during various historical periods

has also been known as "doin it"

http://i.imgur.com/klVVK.jpg

As a parent, I get the having a kid and withdrawing from friendships thing, even if I didn't do it myself. I can even grasp using marriage/shacking up as a device to escape from friendships tied up in addiction.

What chafes me is when there's no apparent reason to make a disconnection, no explanation, just the non-returning of calls/emails/letters. It's the sort of thing that leads you to question your own judgement in terms of making friends, in caring, in trusting and confiding. I started this thread about two people who at one point were two of my best friends, just incredibly important to me. We shared a lot. Talked a lot. Wrote tons of letters, had formative life experiences together. Both wereat my wedding, one was my best man. I'm not as mad at the situation as I used to be, don't get m wrong. But it's like Gerald Cosley in Our Band Could Be Your life on SY blowing off Homestead to go with SST: he's still kinda peeved, years later.

P.S. My instincts aren't totally worthless, I've been blessed with four fantastic friends from HS/college who are awesome and steadfast. Bros/sisters 4 life

I've seen fire, and I've seen rain, et al

What chafes me is when there's no apparent reason to make a disconnection, no explanation, just the non-returning of calls/emails/letters.

That part could be shame. There have been times when I just couldn't face the thought of explaining my own lameness.

yeah... getting a "hey, we haven't seen each other in a while" mail from someone you were meant to ring back ten years ago is a bit awkward.

> I hear ppl say all sorts of wrong and offensive shit but I don't cite it as truth.

Everyone, I found it just as wrong and offensive as all of you. But as sucky an attitude as it was, it is true, and I can't pretend something I witnessed with my eyes and ears didn't happen, or that it was a rare or isolated instance. But please, do not confuse my citing of something as truth with my approval. I don't approve. I'm merely reporting what I've seen or heard several times in my life.

I'd be v interested in how attitudes toward marriage here correlate with whether you witnessed a strong, supportive, loving marriage when you were growing up, particularly amongst your parents. I was well into my teens before I fully believed that married couples were even allowed to choose each other. Everything around me dispelled that notion. If Mom and Dad were allowed to choose who they were married to, why wouldn't they pick someone they like?

Maybe I do wish my happily married and/or with-kids friends would spend more time with me; maybe my attitute towards marriage would improve; whenever I meet an old, long-married couple, I like to observe closely and try to let their wedded bliss settle in. But no matter how hard I try, the first image that pops into my head when I hear "marriage" is that of a grown woman and a grown man screaming at each other. Because that's how I knew it the first two decades of my life.

RC, sorry about drifting your thread. At least it seems you enjoyed the unexpected twists and turns....

Lee, I don't think you're wrong about the correlation between growing up + seeing a happy marriage v an unhappy one. I'm sure you've heard this statistic before:

"If your parents were divorced, you're at least 40 percent more likely to get divorced than if they weren't. If your parents married others after divorcing, you're 91 percent more likely to get divorced."

From here, though I've seen it in more - uh - reputable places. But kinda in too much of a rush this morning to link to, idk, jstor: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/05/19/15-ways-to-predict-divorce.html

6. If you have a daughter, you're nearly 5 percent more likely to divorce than if you have a son.

I disbelieve this.

xp to Lee I think the part that I'm struggling with is your insistence that getting old and undergoing resulting physical change is somehow a bad thing or even a thing that you can do jack shit about. It's not bad; it's being alive. Not marrying your girlfriend doesn't mean either of you are going to magically stay fit forever. Your'e still going to sag and get fat and have weird moles and get wrinkles and develop health problems and have priorities other than going to the gym 5x/week . Hopefully you and your gf love each other as individual humans, with all of the changes that encompasses, and not take advantage of the escape hatch you've left yourself of being able to exit the relationship without involving a third party just because one of you has grown fat. Plus, hey guess what, people get divorced over shallow bullshit, too.

Lee: as a child of divorce, I can def sympathize. And no need to apologize, this has been interesting...

Carl, you're reading me entirely wrong - I'm fine with growing older and all that entails. It was SOMEONE ELSE who freaked out about his wife getting fat.

But as for the "escape hatch", yes, I do like having it, and that's precisely why I'd rather not be married. Because knowing that there's an easy escape hatch, yet neither of us wanting to ever use it, is what makes a relationship feel strong to me. Far more so than being locked in place by matrimony and third parties, IMO.

You know that you're allowed to end legal marriages these days, right?

Wait, nevermind. I wish I could delete that.

Lee, I don't care whether you want to get married or ever get married. I totally respect anybody's decision not to get married (it is the fundamental unit of the patriarchy and all). I mostly object to what I see as you universalizing your personal opinions on the subject, plus your weird hangups about married people getting old and fat due to marriage, but I really don't feel like arguing about it anymore. I sincerely wish you well.

xp It's just that you said 'In my experience, marriage leads to complacency.' and then cited examples of women saying they weren't being romanced (male complacency I guess) and men saying their wives don't make an effort with their appearance (female complacency) and commented yourself "Hey dude, you're married, it's not like your wife needs to look pretty to attract men anymore" (even though you later say you found this wrong and offensive). If you weren't using this as an example of "complacency" that you see then I don't get why you mentioned it and noted that women need to look pretty to attract men until they've 'got' them.

Anyway. I really don't think marriage is for everyone, and if you approach it as 'being locked down' or something then... it's probably not going to end well, and you're probably wise to come up with your own arrangement.

clusterfuck summary?

One admittedly small problem with building a strong, long-lasting relationship with no legal marriage is that after a certain number of years -- ten? fifteen? twenty? -- anyway at some point your insistance on not being married is going to start feeling very stubborn, pointless and irrational to everyone else around you. But if it gives you a starting place that is easier to build from, then it is obviously functional and not a problem at all.

Our downstairs neighbors had been together for about 17 years before they got married; they apparently had a back and forth about whether to get married or not and settled on "I don't believe in marriage", but many years later they were talking with a friend who was hemming and hawing about proposing and the dude was all "hey, if you love her go for it" and his partner was all "now wait just a second, what happened to 'we don't believe in marriage' you big jerk?" They were engaged the next week.

^^^ My two best friends were together at least 15 years and the same thing happened to them.

kinder, I worded those examples v badly I realize, trying to be terse, and they weren't good examples to begin with. Again, I should have been more clear that that's not how *i* think, and should have used my own experiences rather than others' as examples - I truly do not think that way myself, the "look pretty" bit. And I realize that comment made me come across as exacty the sort of ppl I can't stand IRL. Thanks for calling me out on that.

I'm gonna let this drop.

6. If you have a daughter, you're nearly 5 percent more likely to divorce than if you have a son.

― Mark G, Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:36 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

why? it's weird, but not something i'm inclined to reject on the face of it. people are weird, after all.

5% of all bananas think they're pears

BREAKING NEWS

is this referring to absolute risk (of divorce) or relative risk?
what if you have no kids
what if you have a son and a daughter
does the presence of x no. of daughters further increase the risk
does the presence of x. no. of sons offset the risk

hate this stuff

oh wait i just saw where that came from. gonna read.

for a start, the paper says 'first-born daughter' vs 'first-born son'. Not 'daughter' vs 'son'.

parents of hermaphrodites them 2.5% more likely to get divorced

Difference between correlation and causation, ppl. What that statistic doesn't mean is that having a first born daughter necessarily means you are 5% more likely to divorce, as if one follows from the other. What it means is that, of couples divorcing, 5% more had one first-born daughter than a first-born son, and whatever caused that is opaque.

2% of the people who read this thread are likely to mistake their pinkie finger for a PT Cruiser within the next 5 minutes.

paper is here if you're interested: http://emlab.berkeley.edu/~moretti/sons.pdf

We begin by documenting the effect of having a first-born girl on the probability that a child grows up without a father in the household.

The effect is on the probability of divorce? That is an odd way of putting it. What they are documenting is the probablity, but the authors want badly to introduce the idea of cause and effect, so they phrase it in such a way that they can introduce the word. This is sneaky rhetoric, imo.

No, it's not really to do with divorce at all, I think. The context is how badly do fathers want to be part of the family once they know they're having a boy vs a girl. Divorce is one part of it, simply not marrying in the first place is another.

Actually there have been studies that show, if a couple is under considerable stress during the marriage, the first child is statistically much more likely to be a girl (girl babies often being more resilient than boy babies after all) so the correlation and causation might well be the other way around - they had a girl first because the marriage was under stress, and therefore much more likely to divorce with or without a child?

Will look for citation on that one some other time.

I was my parents' first born and they are divorced I always knew it was all my fault and those books at the therapist's office lied

friends who needs em

apropos of nothing guys, but am i alone in noticing this giant PT Cruiser on my hand???

That "study" is so full of unsubstantiated statements and conclusions I don't know where to start....

i.e. "Among women who have had an ultrasound test, we find that those who have a girl are less likely to be married at delivery than those who have a boy. This evidence suggests that couples who conceive a child out of wedlock and find out that it will be a boy are more likely to marry before the birth of their baby." WTF?

hold on let me find the citation for that

i.e. "Among women who have had an ultrasound test, we find that those who have a girl are less likely to be married at delivery than those who have a boy. This evidence suggests that couples who conceive a child out of wedlock and find out that it will be a boy are more likely to marry before the birth of their baby." WTF?

― everything else is secondary (Lee626), Wednesday, March 7, 2012 12:09 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

dunno, seems like a fairly reasonable interpretation to me. of unmarried expecting couples that do know the sex of their child-to-be, those expecting a boy are more likely to have married by the time of delivery.

The whole thing seems predicated on "men like boys more than girls" or something. It's like the authors decided on the point they were trying to make first, and then tried to find the statistics to back them up, instead of the other way around.

The evidence, as they say, "suggests" an interpretation, but that's a pretty weak word and suggests a pretty weak connection between the evidence and the interpretation.

Now, if you were to interview a representative sample of the fathers, and a percentage of those fathers declared their intent to avoid marriage due to the presence of a girl in their sexual partners' womb, then they could more confidently state that such a connection exists and give a fair idea of how often it happens.

one of my decent housemates and i were talking about marriage this morning, and i basically summed up both of our feelings with, "look, if you want to get married, that's fucking fine, just stop talking to me about it, and for fuck's sake STOP equating marriage with love." so much dialogue among mainstream gays is about marriage equality and 'love reigning over all.' it's a fine sentiment, but equating the ability to marry someone (a supposed privilege granted by a state structure) to love (a very idiosyncratic, subjective, nebulous emotional/spiritual/etc feeling towards another person) is so wildly absurd that it blows my mind that people are so fucking dumb.

also, just to throw my two cents in— until the relationship i'm currently in, i never understood it when friends would blow me off b/c they were dating someone/in love with their partner or whatever....

and now, i totally understand it. i still care deeply for my friends, but i really want to spend as much time as possible with him, and if that means blowing other friends off, eh, i'm okay with that.

people fought wars for the luxury of being able to equate marriage with love

those people sucked

The whole thing seems predicated on "men like boys more than girls" or something. It's like the authors decided on the point they were trying to make first, and then tried to find the statistics to back them up, instead of the other way around.

― everything else is secondary (Lee626), Wednesday, March 7, 2012 12:33 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't get that impression at all. of course the report was written up after the research was completed, and therefore tends to emphasize the conclusions, but i don't see that as a problem.

The evidence, as they say, "suggests" an interpretation, but that's a pretty weak word and suggests a pretty weak connection between the evidence and the interpretation.

― Aimless, Wednesday, March 7, 2012 12:36 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's what i like about the phrasing. it's not conclusive, because the intent of the study was not to establish causation, it was merely to observe the behavior (and to speculate on the possible/likely causes). seems appropriate, and i have a lot more faith in these sorts of distanced observations of actual behavior than i do with people's accounts of why they supposedly did what they did (re: your suggestion for a study of men's self-reported intent).

marriage owns! i want everyone to marry and love it!

:)

I love the lack of explanation of "without warning" so far.

I mean, if a couple goes to lengths to get married without truly letting anyone of their friends know, that's a whole other issue.

6. If you have a daughter, you're nearly 5 percent more likely to divorce than if you have a son.
I disbelieve this.
― Mark G, Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:36 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

why? it's weird, but not something i'm inclined to reject on the face of it. people are weird, after all.

― meticulously showcased in a stunning fart presentation (contenderizer), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 19:24 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hi.

I think maybe I'm unusual in that I didn't want a son. That sounds brutal, and of course I'm talking after the event(s). I can't imagine that having a son as well as the 2 girls would make our family any more complete.

Like anything I say, your position may well be different, I did get "are you going to try for a boy?" type q's, but nowadays nobody asks (they are more likely to say "your two are brilliant/easy/etc"). Although, the ones that do have sons seem to bond closer in their 'suffering' (I'm not even kidding!)

Stop teenagers from raping their female pit bull dogs: Bestiality is disgusting.

Uh?

"also, just to throw my two cents in— until the relationship i'm currently in, i never understood it when friends would blow me off b/c they were dating someone/in love with their partner or whatever...."

"and now, i totally understand it. i still care deeply for my friends, but i really want to spend as much time as possible with him, and if that means blowing other friends off, eh, i'm okay with that."

Take it from me: you will regret that if you keep it going too long, for a bunch of reasons. It's too much pressure on the relationship, you will lose your friendship chops, and it hurts people who might not really forgive. A honeymoon period is understandable, but when weeks become months become years, you end up spending all your time with your partner because there are no more alternatives. And that is a total romance killer.

that sounds pretty otm

Mark G, you're assuming that the statistic implies that people having daughters makes them divorce, because of something worse about having daughters. The statistic doesn't say that. It just notes a correlation (as stated by other people above).

Is that like saying "People in Eastbourne have the highest mortality rate" and "People in eastbourne live to the longest age" when in actual fact both can be explained by "Old people move to Eastbourne" ?

I had a very good college friend, also a former roommate, who called me last summer to tell me that

(a) he had left his girlfriend (a mutual friend) of six or seven years
(b) he had met a new woman and had gotten married to her and was very happy
(c) he was about to be a father, but this wasn't the reason he'd gotten married. he apologized for not letting me know – i wasn't upset, just sort of surprised - and i said 'that's great' and that was the last i heard from him.

i've called him a few times, but never heard back :/

I am skeptical about the healthiness of any relationship where the participants aren't able to integrate their previous social relationships into the marriage.

I actually think it's a pretty natural thing to do, at least at the beginning, and in many cases it actually takes pretty serious effort for the seriously-in-love to integrate previous social relationships. But it's utterly vital to do so over the medium and short term, says the guy whose 17-year relationship has been falling apart over the last year or two for this very reason.

medium and long term, I meant.

i have one friend who cut off all of his formerly important friendships after he started dating (and then married) this woman, and that relationship is straight-up emotionally abusive imo.

at the same time, i feel bad that i rarely see my good friends who don't live in town these days. in town is easy, but it's harder to take off for a weekend and either leave my gf alone or have her ditch all of her regular life stuff to go hang out with my friends.

On one level friendship is about hanging out and having fun, but there's another level to it as well. I like to think that with good friends there's a certain unspoken reciprocity. When your life i going well and theirs isn't, you try to make them feel better and vice-versa. And when someone in a relationship discards their friendships it sends out a certain message. The message is "I've found something that makes me happy now and that's all that matters". Kind of a self-absorbed attitude.

Otm but sOmetimes friendship becomes about a sort of remote/long distance support, or, I guess, virtual hanging out. My best friends live far off and I can very rarely them, but everyone's cool with that. Aside from my wife I've been shit at making new close friends since college.

it's really hard to find time to integrate new relationship/preterite social life, and i think somebody always feels slighted. when i was single, i sought to spend a lot of time with my friends b/c there wasn't a lot going on in my home life. i still love my old friends, but i've got less opportunity/desire to spend evenings w/ them because i am ... kind of easily peopled out? and there's somebody always at home? i do try to keep up with them, but as we grow older/physically distant there are fewer opportunities.

agree with RC above too, that there's a lot to be said for phone chat as an adequate friendship w. some people that aren't readily or easily accessible for actual hanging out

there's a lot to be said for phone chat as an adequate friendship

I HATE talking on the phone. It's a problem and I'm afraid that it's causing friendships I have wiht people who live far away to disintegrate but I really hate it so much. I'm just not a phone talker. :/

My closest friend lives in LA but I haven't talked to her in like 6 months mostly because I hate the phone.

I don't love it either, and I sometimes avoid phone calls (from people I like! and haven't talked to in a long time!) because I'm just never in the mood. But other times, I'll make three phone calls in an evening b/c I get a little nostalgic and I need to herd my friend-sheep. I was probably a collie in a past life.

I'm the same way with Netflix DVDs, fwiw. I'll order three good movies that I really want to see and then set them in a stack for three weeks while I watch crappy Modern Family reruns, before binging on the discs, sending them enthusiastically back and waiting desperately for more which I will ignore for months.

I sometimes avoid phone calls (from people I like! and haven't talked to in a long time!)

Me too!! I do this all the time. The last two times she's called me I've ignored the calls and I love this lady to death I just really hate talking on the phone. The worst part is that she's not even on Facebook so I can't pretend like I know what's going on with her. Dammit. I should really call. Thankfully when we do talk it's like we did so last week but still. I was supposed to call two long distance friends last weekend. Did I call either? No. No I did not. I'm horrible.

I hate the phone too! I actually haven't used it to talk to friends in... years... I Skype my parents but that's it.

ask my hs friends here how often I call somebody (hint: never)

It's weird because I love talking in person but just not on the phone which is in sharp contrast to how I was in HS when I would call my friends I'd spent all day with just to say hi at night. lol. I wish she would get a damn FB page and we could keep in touch that way LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE. :/ I'd skype with her but I doubt she has a webcam. I should find out but that would require me to call. Hmmmmmm.

Really this just means I need to take a trip to CA so we can just hang out IRL and talk, you know, face to face. Phones suck!

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/990/PreviewComp/SuperStock_990-889.jpg

yes come to CA and then you could come see meeeeeeeeeeee :D

I really should. I haven't been there since hmmmmm . . . 2000!! Shit. That's forever ago.

VG - where in CA are you?

Sacramento (ie 2hrs north of San Francisco)

At this point I only ever call my parents. Every once I a blue moon I call two peeps who love in Cali, but the nature of those friendships has evolved into a single massive annual call each.

Otherwise? Email. With phone calls I a) have to be in the right mood and b) I need to be alone/under-hassled (almost impossible) because I despise interruptions.

LIVE in Cali

livin, lovin

it's love in Cali, LIVE

hard to live in Cali without lovin', iirc

CALIFORNIA LOOOOVE

I miss talking on the phone aimlessly for like an hour, I hardly ever do it any more at all, it's become a rare bird in my life

I still like to talk to ppl on the phone, but I think that's just bc I have family/friend in Aus so phone is a necessary evil. I mean, I skype with whoever I can, and email, but phone still helps make far away ppl seem closer :)

Ha ha yeah

"hey stay up til like 1 am, I'm gonna need to call so we can talk about whether I should dump my bf"
"ok I'm so there"

People who hate talking on the phone to the point that they don't speak to friends - what is it about talking on the phone that you hate so much? (asking for a friend)

I have a bunch of friends in sales who spend all day talking on the phone, and they Haaaaaate after hours phone anything.

For my part it's just impossible to arrange b/c we all have kids and busy lives - just trying to get stars to align. Don't hate the action but it's a struggle to make it happen.

I have a few college friends (~5) that I really love but live far away, so I make sure to talk to them on AIM/facebook at least once a week.

In person visits every other year

Damn I envy this

I don't even know that I can articulate why I don't like the phone. I'm often tired/unfriendly/peopled-out/wanting downtime in the evening, when I can actually get in contact with my friends across the country. I also like to be alone, and have an open window of time, and be at home, I'm rarely alone, free, and without plans.

I'm often tired/unfriendly/peopled-out/wanting downtime in the evening

This.

Also I just much prefer talking to someone in person where I can see their expressions and stuff. Plus, the person I'm talking about in particular is a slow talker and being on the phone with her is sort of painful. I really should be better about it because I'm sure that some people think I'm an asshole or a bad friend. I'm going to make an effort of call at least one of the 3 I'm thinking of this coming weekend. That seems doable.

talking in person > talking online in text > talking online face to face > talking on the phone

I also like to be alone, and have an open window of time, and be at home, I'm rarely alone, free, and without plans.

This sounds about right for me, too.

It feels wrong for me to say that I don't like talking on the phone, because I really don't, but I tend to dread calling people that I haven't seen in a long time and I think that's probably it. Priorities, really, and maybe I find long catch-up calls a little exhausting. Also we have shitty SHITTY cell phone reception in our house so there is one place I can sit and hope to keep a signal.

Everyone finds long catch-up calls exhausting -- even the people who instigate them!

Yeah they're really exhausting. The longer it gets the longer the call will be and the less I want to make it!

I feel the same way about out-of-touch friends who always say "I miss you!" but make no effort to see me where I am, ie visit me, call me, write to me, send me one lousy text, a picture, ANYTHING. I don't think you actually miss me all that much, or you would make some effort to talk with me! Friendship maintenance is not solely my job just because I don't have kids.

Everyone finds long catch-up calls exhausting -- even the people who instigate them!

― Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Thursday, March 8, 2012 1:28 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I always THINK they're going to be exhausting but usually they end up being invigorating and I'm like why don't I call more often

NB I am a terrible correspondent who happens to be friends with same, and I guess at this point my closest friends are so familiar that even "it's been a couple years" check-ins are rarely earthshaking and mostly like ah good the world still spins on its axis

Two of my best friends from high school still live in my home town, and I really only see them/catch up with them when I'm home, which is maybe once every 3 or 4 years. But we're all pretty much able to pick up where we left off, it hasn't really hurt our friendships as far as I've been able to tell. Neither of them are really online all that much, and have jobs that kinda preclude much phone talking. I don't mind it so much.

I am a very active and involved friend -- it's just tiring to be the one who always has to make all of the moves. I gave up trying hard maybe 5 years ago; now I give medium effort and the results are the same, so it could be my problem for throwing so much energy at the wall.

"could be" = is

I did learn that moving countries placed most of the responsibility of staying in touch on me, since everyone else's life was pretty much unchanged, they sort of adapted pretty quickly to me not being around, and it was my job to say hey I'm over here missing you guys what's up, etc. I was never that kind of friend before that, so it was a big adjustment. But fuuuuuck it helped me so much with homesickness etc.

All my friends either post on ilx or twitter and that ambient awareness of them is how I keep in touch.

i misread as "ambien awareness" O_o

even "it's been a couple years" check-ins are rarely earthshaking and mostly like ah good the world still spins on its axis

Guilty lols. At Christmas, I saw my college best friend for the first time in over 10 years. Apart from the fact that she went back to school again for something else, lost a parent, got married, bought a house, and had a kid, nothing had changed at all.

I never feel the need that I must catch up with a specific friend if I haven't interacted with them in awhile. And most ppl I interact with pretty much know not to expect that from me.

well that's just it, though, right? I take a get a lot of comfort from knowing that ____ will still be ____ when I see them next, regardless of what has transpired. It's a maybe selfish way of reaffirming that I am still basically the same dude I thought I was, yes, this person still recognizes me and I them

xp

Yeah, I can totally deal with that -- I'm ok with that, in fact -- it's the "I miss u" waaaah bs in between self-affirming visits or w/e that I just don't know how to answer. If you miss me, why don't you try to talk with (not to) me more?

i'm a phone-hater too, i find it...mentally tiring, and also a bit...alienating? frustrating? i feel the physical lack of the person i'm talking to and miss them more (but if it's a person i find tedious it makes them MORE tedious and space-filling). i don't find that with emails or internet communication at all.

which friends i hang out with irl is scarily dependent on which friends use my favoured social media - since i got on twitter my social circle has veered towards those of my friends who are also regular users.

people drop out of and come back into social circles all the time, i don't think that's a big deal - there are friends i value and care about who i haven't seen in years because life happened (relationship-related or not). however when i sense this happen -

And when someone in a relationship discards their friendships it sends out a certain message. The message is "I've found something that makes me happy now and that's all that matters". Kind of a self-absorbed attitude.

- and it does happen, and it's a different thing...i don't take kindly to that.

I've probably lost long distance friends due to hating talking on the phone, but my close friends and I have hardly ever talked on the phone, except to make plans.

also have to say that the idea of the sealed-dyad relationship where you only want to see the other person and you want to see them ALL THE TIME is my idea of hell. i need my space and i need space for my friends and i need a lot of both. relationships would come a definite third.

fourth behind work as well

(this is why i'm single)

so you live in a very large warehouse loft y/n

ha i meant space as in...time

though physical space is crucial too, i don't really feel like the idea of living with a partner appeals. i like the tim burton/helena bonham carter model of separate, adjoining houses

in the vast emptiness of space

I don't mind talking on the phone, I just hate making phone calls.

Having a stutter makes phones conversations painful for both me and the other person, I've even lost job opportunities because of it.

:(

my Dad stutters, I totally understand that.

I'm good in person but on the phone I sometimes can't even get a word out.

i am probably guilty of this :(
i still go out to shows and see some friends that way, but the idea of going out for drinks after work has become foreign to me. kinda sucks sometimes.

I did learn that moving countries placed most of the responsibility of staying in touch on me, since everyone else's life was pretty much unchanged, they sort of adapted pretty quickly to me not being around, and it was my job to say hey I'm over here missing you guys what's up, etc. I was never that kind of friend before that, so it was a big adjustment. But fuuuuuck it helped me so much with homesickness etc.

Yeah this is so true. I actually quite enjoy just emailing a person with a 'hey! what's up!' if they pop into my head. I will defend Facebook forever as well for the 'ambient awareness' (although I'm p sure at least two not-very-close friends have had secret babies in the last 6 months or so)

lol secret babies

kinder otm -- Facebook has been awesome for letting me stay in touch with a wider circle of friends than I would have if it was just me and email, and the 'ambient awareness' is def key where distance is a factor.

I've definitely withdrawn from most of my friends in the past several years (except work friends of course, since I see them all the time). It wasn't getting married that caused this, though. I think it was my job getting more demanding. Then I felt like my first priority for whatever "free time" I had left ought to be to my wife. Next priority (very recently) is preparing for the new baby! Third priority is doing chores/fixing things around the house. Fourth priority is to family (which means I don't see them too often), fifth is to friends (who I almost never see now), and finally, the last priority is to myself (downtime, hobbies, etc. which I never EVER have time for anymore). So yeah, I barely ever see my friends anymore, but that's only partly, indirectly due to getting married. It's more about growing up and having way more responsibilities than I used to. It doesn't help that they are all busy/married/growing up too, and our free time hardly ever occurs at the same time. And even if it does, I'm usually too tired from the workweek to even make an effort anymore.

Facebook just irritates me anymore because it's just a constant reminder of all the people I should talk to because it's so convenient and easy now, but I'm ignoring them because I'm too busy/tired/etc. or they've changed, or I've changed, or I'm horrified at something they posted, or whatever. Before Facebook, there were so many people I wished I could get back in touch with- now, I'm Facebook friends with all of them, and I can see some of what's going on in their lives, and maybe they can see some of what's going on in mine, but that's about as far as I want it to go. Since I don't have time to contact everyone that I feel like I should, it makes me not want to contact anyone. It's just too overwhelming.

You don't have to write long paragraphs every time, you know. A line or two reminds people that you care!

Hahaha, for a horrifying second I thought you were chiding me for the long-ish posts! But you're right, I should make more of an effort, and it wouldn't take much.

and if that means blowing other friends off, eh, i'm okay with that.

!!! very good friend to have