THE GAME OF THRONES/ASOIAF SPOILER THREAD (WARNING: SPOILERS)

jon snow dies

i'm wondering if the end of S02E02 is possibly going to kickstart the mutiny at craster's keep early. i can't really see craster being friendly to the crows after catching jon snow spying on his secret

I am pretty sure Jon is going to end up inside of his wolf

ew

oh hey so this thread exists

I'm going to read this thread even tho I haven't read the books because I am total badass

someone remind me how the craster stuff went down in the books. the mutiny happened in book 3 on their way back, right?

yes, things were pretty tense after slogging through the snow for months and getting attacked by zombies

I'm going to read this thread even tho I haven't read the books because I am total badass

― lag∞n, Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:29 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark

robb dies, catelyn dies and becomes a zombie, arya goes blind, tyrion kills his father tywin and flees westeros, jaime gets his hand chopped off, joffrey dies, sansa marries tyrion, renly dies, jon snow dies, dany gets diarrhea *drops mic*

you forgot Bran becomes a tree

Jon is inside a wolf

lol its cool i dont know most of the characters names anyway

Jon is Inside a Wolf Inside a Turkey. He's a Jowokey.

There's an interesting thread on the Westeros forum (where obsessives pour over the books for clues endlessly) that attempts to list out where each and every character is at the end of Dance With Dragons. It is a very long list and went a long way toward convincing me that these books will never get any kind of resolution.

also forgot: Arya gets her sight back, along with a new face

I'm not sure if Jon is going to be inside the wolf or brought back to life by the red queen. Either would work, though the first would be more interesting.

how will you guys feel if the show departs radically from the books at some point because i think it should totally do that

http://ih3.redbubble.net/image.11086801.6316/fc,220x200,white.jpg

how will you guys feel if the show departs radically from the books at some point because i think it should totally do that

I'm totally fine with whatever as long as the Red Wedding still happens

if they do the whole showdown at Craster's now, it would be a pretty huge departure. That's skipping forward like a thousand pages.

how will you guys feel if the show departs radically from the books at some point because i think it should totally do that

― lag∞n, Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:35 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

i feel like the longer the show goes on, the more it's going to create its own universe with all those little departures adding up into something bigger. but i dont really care because im honestly not that into the show, i just want the next book. hurry up george!!!!

the show needs its own universe because it can't really sustain all of the plot threads of the book

basically I think if they keep focused on Dany and Tyrion (with Bran and Arya as the main subplots), they can reshuffle/redo most everything else and get away with it

they absolutely need a Red Wedding analogue though; the culling of competing kings is a pretty important piece of the overall series no matter what form it takes

they need the red wedding, period, it's by far the most badass moment in teh whole series

i love how there's so much dready build up to it but u never actually think he'll do THAT

/how will you guys feel if the show departs radically from the books at some point because i think it should totally do that/

I'm totally fine with whatever as long as the Red Wedding still happens

5real

It'll probably be even more shocking in the show since Rob is already a bigger character than he was in the books

booming post canks, that'll keep the riffraff out

what book does the red wedding take place in

storm of swords

man wait u forgot ppl out skydoors

what did max reveal on the other thread?? was it melisandre getting 'pregnant'? because i so nearly wrote that.

i will repeat from elsewhere, no way jon is dead.

no one is dead

well, Robb is dead

never clicking again

also, one departure i would like to suggest is gilly gets killed immediately so that terrible woman isn't on my tv anymore

aw, what did Kristin Wiig ever do to you

this is not the thread you want to open having noticed only that it has "GAME OF THRONES" in the title

So it's been renewed for season three, which means that now the show has to untangle books three and four, which will be a tough gig.

My suspicion is that S2 would end with the Blackwater battle? Can't see it stuck in the middle of season 3. And I can't imagine how they're going to film that for TV, that's LotR scale.

they cut his head off and replaced it with his wolfs

Yep, S2 finale

Interesting to see how they're breaking this down

201: The North Remembers
Written by David Benioff & D.B Weiss, directed by Alan Taylor
Airdate: 1 April 2012

202: The Night Lands
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, directed by Alan Taylor
Airdate: 8 April 2012

203: What is Dead May Never Die
Written by Bryan Cogman, directed by Alik Sakharov
Airdate: 15 April 2012

204: Garden of Bones
Written by Vanessa Taylor, directed by David Petrarca
Airdate: 22 April 2012

205: The Ghost of Harrenhal
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, directed by David Petrarca
Airdate: 29 April 2012

206: The Old Gods and the New
Written by Vanessa Taylor, directed by David Nutter
Airdate: 6 May 2012

207: A Man Without Honor
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, directed by David Nutter
Airdate: 13 May 2012

208: The Prince of Winterfell
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, directed by Alan Taylor
Airdate: 20 May 2012

209: Blackwater
Written by George R.R. Martin, directed by Neil Marshall
Airdate: 27 May 2012

210: Valar Morghulis
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, directed by Alan Taylor
Airdate: 3 June 2012

My suspicion is that S2 would end with the Blackwater battle? Can't see it stuck in the middle of season 3. And I can't imagine how they're going to film that for TV, that's LotR scale.

Probably going to be Stannis and Mel re-enacting it on the Dragonstone table with the action figures, post-coitus.

I wonder if they're still going to have Tyrion get his nose cut off etc.

Yeah, Peter Dinklage is already way more handsome than the way Tyrion is described in the books. I have a hard time seeing HBO disfigure their star for years on end.

They'll probably just give him an interesting scar instead.

grrm dropped too many hints about jon snow actually being lyanna stark's son to just kill him off without having the Big Reveal about that. he'll surely be back

Yeah, Peter Dinklage is already way more handsome than the way Tyrion is described in the books. I have a hard time seeing HBO disfigure their star for years on end.

kind of like how ppl had a hard time seeing HBO kill of poster boy Sean Bean?

No, not really

they already made a concession by not having him be ugly from the start. They might give him a nasty scar but i doubt they'll go all the way with it.

did you know peter dinklage was in that one episode of 30 rock? tina fey mistakes him for a child but then starts dating him to cover up for it

SHUT IT DOWN.

I'm not sure if Jon is going to be inside the wolf or brought back to life by the red queen. Either would work, though the first would be more interesting.

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm betting on inside the wolf first, for a few chapters, then Mels does some red magic, pulling him out of wolf and into his former body. He'll def be in the wolf at least for a while; there was way too much attention paid to that boar thing, as if to get us thinking abt it.

how will you guys feel if the show departs radically from the books at some point because i think it should totally do that

I'm totally fine with whatever as long as the Red Wedding still happens

― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:37 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Cosign but add Boltons pere et fils, I'll feel mega robbed if there are not ample scenes of their creepiness. Also, no Reek no credibility.

pretty sure roose bolton is cast for this season

He's being played by Michael McElhatton.

My wife is convinced the Reeds will be left out of the show, with the domesticated wildling chick hitting their notes. Thoughts?

I hope not.

perhaps, though book-wise, Howland Reed is the only one left alive who knows a bunch of secret stuff that Ned otherwise took to the grave

i think the one big story change they should consider for the show is somehow getting Dany to Westeros earlier. there's no crucial plot reason i can think of for her to chill in the east for 2 more books after she frees Mereen and has an army, other than the dragons growing which can just be sped up

ya get rid of that shit

like her only real cool scene for a long stretch of the books is the chapter where she 'trades' the dragon for the slave army and then torches the slavemaster guy

Agreed. In fact, the thing that really perplexes me abt the books is how long he has delayed what one has to assume are the two key 'ice' and 'fire' events (Dany enters Westeros w/dragons, Winter finally comes w/white walkers crossing the wall).

he doesn't really know what to do with the dragons, basically

If he did not start the fkin series without a p solid idea of where he was ultimately headed with the dragons and the white walkers, I pity him.

*with* not without, sorry

people seem to think dany, tyrion, and jon are gonna be the 3 dragon riders (this theory also assumes that jon is lyanna stark's son and that she died in childbirth like tyrion and dany's mothers. not sure how this is relevant but people like patterns i guess?)

that also requires Tyrion to be a Targaryen. I know there are theories but that would be kind of annoying

yeah if tyrion ends up being a targaryen or a dragon rider im giving up

i thought Snow was the son of Ned

oh god brownie dont embarrass yourself

what will GRR Martin come up with next i ask you

now i hope the show completely abandons the books i want new content and grrm is not providing it

there's definitely a snow secret, the whole thing is ned brought him back from the wars and refused to talk about it

maybe he's the son of an actual snowman

the jon-is-lyanna's-son thing is so tedious, grrm retroactively erasing from the record one of the few times a character had > 1 trait

http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-201001/6d62572fd000cfe319ff7b46bdc5836c.jpg

grrm retroactively erasing from the record one of the few times a character had > 1 trait

I think even the first book leaves big hints that Jon is not Ned's son, so I don't think it's retroactive.

yeah, i think that's one thing he was sure of all along

yr probably right but i much prefer the idea of ned coming back from the war and going "YES this is MY SON that i had via HAVING SEX with SOMEONE ELSE, deal with it", seems much more grim and northern

i either missed this or blotted it out of my mind because I can't bear the thought of lovely lysanna having a bastard.

*throws self in front of whitewalker*

ban brownie

i shall take my leave to Basilisk Point if anyone should enquire about my whereabouts

yr probably right but i much prefer the idea of ned coming back from the war and going "YES this is MY SON that i had via HAVING SEX with SOMEONE ELSE, deal with it", seems much more grim and northern

It's also completely, totally out of character for Ned "I am a blinding idiot when it comes to matters of honor" Stark, particularly when as far as I can remember he pretty much never acts like there's anything shameful or dishonorable about Jon's existence, even when Cat goes off on him in book 1.

yeah, but the reason he acts that way is that it is a carapace he has developed to cover the shame and guilt he feels over his bastard son

at least that is the case in my fanfic, a song of scones and lager

A Song Of Neeps And Olives

ned is a one dimensional patsy, intended to parody the type of fantasy mainstay he represents, thrust into the sacrificial fire as his creator incants 'SEE this is what would REALLY happen to a stubbornly honourable hero type", when all the while the creator merely parodies himself for attempting to attire fantasy in the velvet pant suit of reality

okay I don't know about you but velvet pant suits have nothing to do with my reality

Then you haven't lived.

velvet pant suits are as smooth as arbor gold

I had to give up velvet pant suits because I kept dropping my olives on them and the oil leaves funky stains.

srsly five books in and no one has even rode a dragon yet smh

you're an odd one

I just feel like, how much story time is even going to take place "in Winter" in the remaining 2200 pgs? Unless he does a time jump, which would be unlike him at this point.

srsly five books in and no one has even rode a dragon yet smh

he must have used "ride the dragon" as a euphemism by now though.

also there was hella dragon riding in A Dance of Dragons

maybe he's the son of an actual snowman

― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:44 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

serious coffee out my nose moment

they need the red wedding, period, it's by far the most badass moment in teh whole series

― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Tuesday, 10 April 2012 21:47 (Yesterday) Permalink
it's quite shocking alright but probably cos it was so built up by everyone I know who had read them, I wasn't really appalled. The scene in that book that had me gasping & clutching the pearls was Oberyn's death.

re: dragon riders - I heard Jon, Dany & Bran.

i don't remember where they left this in the books, but...the hound's not really dead, right? he's with that guy who can't die and cat stark etc right?

also you guys i was thinking about it and if there's really one villain that will probably end up having been the worst of the many villainous villains on this show...it's varis right?

srsly five books in and no one has even rode a dragon yet smh

― lag∞n, Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:33 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

yes they have, get the hell out nub

nah, Varys is the only real hero of the piece

i would call sam a hero

eventually

I like Varys. Ramsey Bolton seems the most horrible to me.

I think the dead mountain that rides who lurks in the basement of the red keep is a big enemy

yeah i was gonna say they could just cut out dorne completely but then you lose the Mountain vs Viper fight which is one of the top 5 moments in the series imo. i'd rather have that than the red wedding if i had to choose

same

i really like the dorne stuff

ya dorne stuff is great, really like doran martell and his whole thing with ariane where she accuses him of being useless & never making any choices or acting up or whatevs and then he takes her aside and tells her the truth, that he's actually been plotting all the while to get dorne & targaryens on that iron throne. sadly, fucking quentyn is useless as hell and fucks it up.

that was a real bummer

Isn't Oberyn one of the characters they're casting for the upcoming, confirmed third season?

i don't remember where they left this in the books, but...the hound's not really dead, right? he's with that guy who can't die and cat stark etc right?

He's alive, but not kicking it with d00d who can't die (i.e. Beric Dondarrion), who incidentally is dead. (He gave up his living spark to reanimate UnCat.) Instead, the Hound is chilling on a monkish isle as an unspeaking initiate that I believe Bran and the Reeds visit.

the hound is dead though iirc. isn't that what the top guy on that monkish isle said? that he'd buried sandor clegane. or did i miss something? also, it's not bran & the reeds ho visit that island, its brienne & that septon & dog & randall tarly's man whose name i cant remember.

its really pointless but for some reason i really like dog !

i thought sandor was specifically dead but i guess i miss a lot of stuff

the hound is dead though iirc. isn't that what the top guy on that monkish isle said? that he'd buried sandor clegane. or did i miss something?

thats one of the points of 'evidence' for him being alive - the monkbro specifically says that he buried the hound, leaving us to imagine that sandor clegane is alive but is no longer the hound

yeah it's very "i BURIED him do you see BURIED. 'buried'"

The scene in that book that had me gasping & clutching the pearls was Oberyn's death.

Oh jesus, quite true. I forgot about that scene. If there is a 'scene which effortlessly sums up ASOIAF' it's probably that one. I still cringe when I think of it.

yeah, the red wedding was big and splashy and but the mountain/viper was just so intense

Gubke's post about exiled houses on the spoiler-free thread is a spoiler, I think. Don't want to mention it in the thread but maybe it should be deleted by a nice mod?

So... being careful not to spoil... in the books, Arya becomes Roose Bolton's cup-bearer at Harrenhal, not Tywin's, correct? This is a BIG change from the book and I'm not sure where they'll head with it...

― til the sound of my voice will haint u (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:26 PM (21 minutes ago)

is it a material change tho? i expect arya's story will play out the same. i am sure the change is just streamlining.

i thought in the book, Tywin is there for a while, then rides out and Roose Bolton shows up after that and takes over? please tell me if i'm wrong

I imagine any changes like that are just to get full value from their actors (see also Shae becoming Sansa's chambermaid). Presumably Roose is still going to turn up at Harrenhall

xp that is my recollection. tywin heads south

yeah Roose at Harrenhal is what he was spoiling w/ that post is what i meant

Shae/Sansa thing was in the book too, it was just mentioned in passing instead of being given a scene

Yeah, wasn't the point kind of that despite Harrenhall changing hands from Lanisters to Starks, Arya was shocked to find that the conditions didn't really improve.

I think he was there but he was "offscreen" so to speak

they are obviously compressing/speeding up arya's storyline, and there is no reason why she can't gtfo while tywin is around instead of later.

yeah i guess the question is whether they want to establish roose bolton as a character soundly enough to make him switching sides a big twist

since in the books that's the only bit where he's ever onscreen really

How the hell do they even pay all the actors for this show? The finances must be labyrinthine

i guess all the riverlands outlaws and such are the easiest thing to trim for the show, i've read the books twice and i still can't remember who's who and they're all very minor characters that could be replaced with random one-shot appearances where they matter (e.g. jaime's hand)

I guess I am wrong to assume that Tywin at Harrenhal now = no Roose at Harrenhal later. Making what I said a possible spoiler... sorry.

On further reflection they really HAVE to establish Bolton at Harrenhal unless they want to throw out a ton of good ish.

roose at harrenhal is too important to write out, even if they don't actually give it any screen time. but yeah, as a character he does require fleshing out (PUN INTENDED) and if not now, when?

on another note entirely, with the way they are really going to town with joffrey, how disappointed are newb viewers going to be with a. how long it takes until he dies (he has to be around all of this season and most of next, surely) and b. the relatively unsatisfying way it goes down? or will the show change both/either?

Oh, my memory is that it's pretty satisying? He dies quite horribly iirc. I agree they may be peaking out his evil levels a bit early though.

dying at yr own wedding feast is pretty good imo, don't think they need to change it. they could probably push it up a bit, i suspect they're gonna bleed into book 3 at the end of this season to get a headstart on it

well, there is so much else going on around his death. it isn't the one big, triumphant catharsis that ppl are probably expecting.

it isn't the one big, triumphant catharsis that ppl are probably expecting.

Series motto, pretty much.

I nominate "everyone you love will suffer terribly and die horribly. everyone else too tbh."

How about "always avoid wedding celebrations"?

I used to think that way, but now I'm just "ANOTHER PLACE?" and I kind of wish all the characters would hang out in Central Perk and just hash it out over a cup of java.

― GoT SPOILER ALERT (Gukbe), Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:27 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Love this comment. Someone is in for major disappointment. If there's one thing I can say about this series, it really frustrates any expectations of character A finally meeting character B.

Danerys' storyline is going to drive tv watchers crazy

yeah i was talking about that upthread and how if they really have license to make big changes to the plot, they should just cut out everything in her story after Mereen and just send her straight to Westeros after that. the first time i read the books, her chapters were just so disengaged from the exciting stuff happening in Westeros that i found them really boring even when there was some action

like, she could chill in Dorne secretly until the rest of the plot stuff is set up for her appearance in (presumably) book 6, and that would give a better reason to shoehorn in the Dorne stuff from book 4

you are making a lot of assumptions about her going to Westeros in future books, maybe she'll just chill out in Mereen some more

It'd be relatively easy for them to accelerate events if the books were already finished but seeing as they're not i'm not sure what they can do. I mean Daenerys secretly turning up in Dorne would require a fairly massive plot reshuffle

Oh, my memory is that it's pretty satisying? He dies quite horribly iirc. I agree they may be peaking out his evil levels a bit early though.

I don't care how they treat Joff's wedding as long as they bring in Lady Olenna. QUEEN OF THORNS LAYING THE LAW, MORE LIKE QUEEN OF THRONES AMIRITE?

xp that was just an example, the point is that nothing that happens in her story between the dragons hatching and the end of book 5 seems particularly important, except for her getting an army when she frees Mereen, and the dragons growing which happens regardless of whether she's onscreen or not

Congrats to Davos, who got a huge promotion.

My wife is convinced the Reeds will be left out of the show, with the domesticated wildling chick hitting their notes. Thoughts?

― tales from endoscopic oceans (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:41 PM (3 weeks ago)

i feel like this is happening? shouldn't the reed kids have turned up and been established before theon comes back, which seems to be imminent now? this would be a bad mistake surely.

will be SUPER pissed if theres no crannogmen

i definitely don't think we're seeing them this season anyway. Not sure how a later introduction would work either

howland reed is my favorite character

shouldn't the reed kids have turned up and been established before theon comes back, which seems to be imminent now?

Yes, it is one of those things that has annoyed me.

if you read between the lines, howland reed is a bum on a raft

an AWESOME bum on a raft

I doubt they'll show up this season, maybe next season

yeah, there's no need for them to show up this season –

i guess they figure that enough new characters have been dropped in and they want to roll out the rest of the season without any major new additions. i am ok with that, as long as they do appear in s3.

they need to arrive before theon gets there

The fact that they haven't been cast yet makes me wonder how the Bran storyline is going to pan out (ie what GRRM told the showrunners).

But also I'm 99% certain the Reeds are the only living book characters that know the truth of Jon's parentage?

yah

If I only watched the show I would guess that Jon's father was Hodor.

i heard all the guys you like best r not going to be in the show

i see it

http://images.wikia.com/gameofthrones/images/d/dc/Hodor2.jpg
http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Fullscreen-capture-20062011-214358.bmp-300x279.jpg?d4fd08

i heard all the guys you like best r not going to be in the show

lmbo gyac.

Srsly fed up with the "WEAR ARE JOJEN AND MEEERA" interwebs talk, even though I liked Meera in the books. Anyway, I think that Osha's going to be escorting Bran beyond the Wall, and someone else will take Rickon (I have a suspicion/hope that it's Maester Luwin).

But yeah, heavy hints that Howland knows if R+L=J or not.

I think they're losing me

i see they have jumped way ahead in daenerys's story to the part where it drags along tediously.

couple of great scenes in this one but was disappointing overall. some of the deviation from the books starting to feel gratuitous

damn they sure got rid of daenerys' khalasar or whatever just like that. so now, she truly has absolutely no one with her? also, when are we going to see her get her unsullied by unleashing the dragons? now would seem to be the right time since she has no army or anything to speak of, but then again when you see the size of her dragons they don't look like they could burn anyone. what a weak little flame dragon dude had. tbh daenerys' story was one of the least interesting in the books imo and they are making it even less appealing in the show.

Well, old man Whitebeard is going to show up, and she has Jorah?

Drogon is still small in the House of the Undying, they would have time to grow by the time they get to Astapor. He's still small enough to sit on her shoulder at that stage.

i'm pretty excited about her going into the House of the Undying! that was one of my favourite parts in the book!

i'm still slogging through book 4...

it gets much better through the last quarter, but fuck, it is sloggy.

ok that is good to know - i am over half of the way through

Book 4 will seem much better once you have read book 5. They reflect each other's strengths. I kind of want to take my ebooks of books 4 and 5 and shuffle the chapters together cuz that's really how it should be read. (Or has someone already done that?)

I agree, I'm over the halfway point with ADWD and it's very true, especially once the timelines join up again.

I'm finding ADWD a much quicker read than AFFC, I'm only holding back cos I know there isn't going to be one to go onto.

I've also not found AFFC & ADWD as a bad as people say; I imagine not having to wait 11 years for them helps!

i'm pretty excited about her going into the House of the Undying!

If done well, it has the potential to be fantastic.

i just can't imagine how it could be done well

claustrophobia-inducing hallways, smokey darkness, creepy ghosts, general foreboding

bloody walls, stench of death, etc

what a tv screen can do with that can only fall well short of what the imagination can, that is the problem. if they figure out how to film "general foreboding" they are in with a shot.

have you ever seen a good horror movie

seriously!
i think they can do it.

I hope we get Rhaegar

yea! harp playing rhaegar hallucination would be awesome!

possibly related, has anyone rewatched episode 1 to see of mance rayder was actually at winterfell during the feast?

huh?

mance reveals that he was at the feast for king robert's arrival

but Mance hasn't appeared on the show

no need to go back and check, mance simply hadnt been cast yet

and he doesn't turn up til ASOS anyway

would be a cool easter egg tho

We're probably just getting the Black Lodge.

So I think this episode came the closest yet to containing nothing actually from the book. Which is fine; obv it makes the show more suspenseful for longtime readers...

jon lewis otm. i spent a lot of the episode wondering if my memory had failed me that much that i remembered this all wrong.

however, does it bother any one else that in the tv show every one talks really openly about cersei & jamie fucking, especially these two. the scene where cersei opens up to tyrion felt really wrong to me. not only does she admit having had joffrey & kids with her brother, which in the books she only admits after a lot happens, she also uses that opportunity to say she has no control over joffrey and that she's afraid of him/regrets he's the new king and not tommen or myrcella (i'll admit i wasn't giving this scene my full attention cos my flatmate had questions so could be wrong on the whole not liking joffrey bit). in the books jamie & cersei sleeping together is more of a rumour that a few people actually know to be true, but that cersei & jamie actively deny, whereas here it seems like its common knowledge and hardly anyone gives a fuck. and cersei is completely blind when it comes to joffrey, basically giving him a free pass for any & everything, which is a strange contrast to how she sees him in the tv show.

Tyrion knows both in the books & show: in the book he even says "Who you lie with is no matter to me...although it doesn't seem quite just that you should open your legs for one brother and not the other" which seems rather more open than just talking about the kids. He also makes a few allusions to it in episode 1. The book can't really show you how widespread the rumours are but they are widespread, and the starving peasants in King's Landing are going to latch onto any unpleasant rumour going.

yeah tyrion knows about it (and i included him in the people who knew the rumour to be true). its just i found it kind of surprising to see how open cersei & jamie are about it when in the books it felt like they were no where near admitting it. in the books it felt like this burden that the two carried around without being able to say it because they knew other people would not look kindly upon it. here it's like " yeah i fucked my sister/brother, it was awesome! also, those kids come from this incestuous relationship, but hey u know, no biggie"

and, correct me if i'm wrong, the only time either one of them openly acknowledges it is when cersei gets captured by the septons? also yeah in the books the rumour is very widespread, i mean stannis putsup messages in every village in westeros talking about this !

tbh i guess it's a bit harder for the tv show to convey that message without having one of the two involved copping to having sex with his brother/sister. if anyone else says it i guess viewers could think that its just a rumour?

Well Cersei iirc was all about keeping it secret but Jaime, not so much. He talks to Ilyn Payne about it a lot. Also, Kevan (their uncle) knows about it and refers to it.

The taboo is mostly because Cersei's the Queen & her kids are in the line of succession; the Targaryens had largely phased out of marrying their siblings and it is frowned upon. Daenerys's parents were siblings.

here it's like " yeah i fucked my sister/brother, it was awesome! also, those kids come from this incestuous relationship, but hey u know, no biggie"

Cersei seemed pretty distraught at the idea that incest has caused Joffrey's incurable case of evil little shit-itis, I don't think it was nbd to her.

ya guess so. i mean i still have some problems with the way this strays from those chars attitudes in the books, but there was no way things would be exactly the same. tbh this isn't really important, so dunno why i felt the need to write it out.

Y'all gotta remember, too, the book contains a shit-tonne of exposition via internal monologue, especially concerning Westeros history. The Arya-Tywin and Tyrion-Cersei conversations imo were a super-effective way of bringing the audience up-to-date re: the Targaryens, dragons.

Most changes/omissions have been improvements, as far as I'm concerned. The assassination of 11 of the 13 was some much needed drama in an otherwise uneventful Daenarys arc

Yeah I like most of the changes too, don't get me wrong.

Wasn't there a LOT more about The Mountain in Book 2? I seem to remember him being this malevolent force pillaging the Riverlands

yeah there was. I guess there'll be more whenever the Brotherhood shows up?

I don't want to come off like some kind of bloodthirsty maniac, but I hope that HBO isn't shying away from making Arya a remorseless killing machine.

well she was thinking about stabbing tywin when he was talking with his back to her. so i guess she's still on track to being a killing machine.

True, but by this time in the books, her body count consisted of more than just a single fat boy.

true. she does get ppl killed though. can't wait to see "a man knows" dude change looks when she tells him to kill himself.
also, reading the other thread, you say metal mask chick is quaithe. and now i'm blanking out on who she is. is she the one that tells dany she'll be betrayed thrice, loved thrice etc ?

I'm also looking forward to Arya telling Jaqen to kill himself, if only to remember the mechanics of her gambit!

Damn, now I'm not sure about Quaithe. I want to say yes, though I can't shake the possibility that she gets that warning in the Houses of the Holy Undying. But basically, she's sort of an apparition that appears to Dany randomly to drops some prophetic business.

glad to see i'm not the only one who's confused about metal mask chick. dany does get the warning from an apparition in the house of the undying - there's no way they'll bypass that scene and have the prophecies come to dany via metal mask chick? right?

also iirc arya's gambit is basically that she wants jaqen to help her free the northmen in harrenhal. he refuses so she orders him to kill himself or smth like that?

yeah she needs him to do more than just one assassination to free them so she names him and holds him hostage to his own promise unless he helps her

I think that Osha's going to be escorting Bran beyond the Wall, and someone else will take Rickon (I have a suspicion/hope that it's Maester Luwin).

Disappointed that we still didn't get House of the Undying, but seeing Luwin pretty much established as Rickon's replacement nanny made me happy.

Really digging the exposition of Robb + whats-her-name

BLACKWATER.

... WASN'T THAT GOOD.

Considering how hyped this episode was, I thought it was pretty damn good.

I haven't read the books, but from the spoilers I've read, it looks like Tyrion got off a lot easier with that cut to his face than he did in the books, right? Like, his nose is still there.

he is TV lead character injured

Also, did they change the guy that cut him from being a dude that was supposed to be on his side but betrayed him to just being some big random enemy? I didn't recognize the guy.

It was definintely a Kingsguard mofo who tries to cut him down -- Meryn Trant? Who aside from Jaime and the Hound, is the only Kingsguard guy who's gotten a name. Anyway, same guy who strips Sansa at Joffrey's command earlier this season.

REEDS! BLACKFISH!

Entertainment Weekly’s James Hibberd has the (partial) cast list of characters introduced in Season Three. Reproduced below with original role descriptions:

Mance Rayder: We’ve heard about him all season. A former member of the Night’s Watch who became the “King Beyond the Wall,” the leader of the Wildlings.
Daario Naharis: A confident and seductive warrior.
Jojen Reed; Meera Reed: A teenage brother and sister duo with special insights.
Edmure Tully: A brash young member of the Tully family.
Ser Brynden Tully (The Blackfish): Catelyn Stark’s uncle.
Lady Selyse Florent: Stannis Baratheon’s wife.
Shireen: Stannis’ daughter.
Olenna Redwyne (The Queen of Thorns): Margaery Tyrell’s sharp-witted grandmother.
Beric Dondarrion: A skilled knight who is the leader of the outlaw group Brotherhood Without Banners.
Thoros of Myr: A red priest who follows the same religion as Melisandre.
Tormund Giantsbane: A Wildling raider.

oh shireen.

I hope Glenn Danzig plays Ramsay Bolton.

Wait, wasn't Beric already in the first season? I don't remember him but it seems he should've been?

yeah, he was. Guess that guy couldn't wait around (or maybe wasn't up to it)

needs more patchface

patchface creeps me out, I'd be glad if he didn't show up

He is very creepy. I don't like clowns or fools to begin with, but he takes it to the next level.

totally. creepy-sad clown.

i am glad the reeds weren't left out. i have been missing the more other-worldliness part of GoT (dragons, white walkers, physic powers, etc)

there's been loads of that this season...

yes, queen of thorns such a great character ! reeds also cool !

Edmure Tully: A brash young member of the Tully family.

he's just a bit younger than catelyn stark ! this makes it sound like he's around the same age as i dunno, the stark kids or smth.

I think they might have specified young as he is younger than Catelyn and also not yet married.

Olenna is U&K, but Blackfish is awes as well.

Also puzzled why they don't just say that Edmure is Cat's brother.

NOT LUWIN!!!!!!!!!!!! I BLAME THE REEDS!!

I like all the changes they've made so far, what have we got?

- Massacre of the Thirteen
- Robb exists in Book 2
- Theon is a wimp
- Arya/Tywin instead of Arya/Roose, massively expanded

I feel like there must have been something else that happened in Book 2 that I've forgotten, Season 2 seemed largely fabricated, aside from King's Landing + Stannis

All I remember now of Book 2 was Dany getting lost in the desert and it taking a long time.

Oh, they also made Renly a more visible character. All good choices

Stuff they took out:

- Jojen and Meera
- Tyrion's chain
- Edmure Tully

Oh, they also made Renly a more visible character.

It's funny, seeing the amount of people online complaining that there was not enough Renly this season when he got his story got fleshed out way more than was in the books.

jojen and meera are cast for season 3 so i guess bran crew is just gonna bump into them on their way through the woods or something. edmure will show up when we go to riverrun i assume

err being cast, not cast yet

So many good decisions! The only plot threads of which I preferred the book version have been Jon Snow, Samwell and Davos.

this last one definitely showed the signs of the budget being spunked on the penultimate episode. i guess i had low expectations for the house of the undying. they could've spent half an episode in there and really gone big with it but i didn't see it happening. what they did on the smaller scale worked fine tho.

i didn't think the winterfell thing was handled as well as it could've been. not even one shot of the northmen outside the gates? it was all too vague. the business with ramsay in the books seemed a bit unnecessary on reading but i actually missed it here. the show might have done better to add ramsay in and take its time more with that storyline. it mostly disappears in book 3 anyway, and the bran parts there could be easily condensed to accommodate an escape mid-season. the burned kids could've been the season cliffhanger.

i didn't much like how the jon/halfhand thing happened either - also needlessly vague. i mean, it was clear enough what qhorin was trying to do, but there was no moment when the penny seemed to drop for jon, and in the end he killed him cos he said something mean about his unknown mam. at least they got where they needed to be, by a roundabout way.

on the plus side, tyrion's face was impressively fucked up, even if they had to keep his nose. if dinklage was really committed to his art he'd have let them hack it off. disappointing.

this season was always when the real challenge of making a tv show out of such a wide ranging story was going to be obvious. they really could've done better. i know there are pressures and expectations, but they would've been helped themselves a ton by cutting dany out of nearly all the first half of the season. i thought robb rampaging off in the west and then returning with his marriage a done deal was a great narrative twist, and i don't know how well the show was served by making him much more static and giving that nurse so much screen time. meanwhile, other parts of the story got sometimes bizarrely truncated.

i suspect they didn't want to have to cast Ramsay until season 3

after playing up theon's story to great effect this season i wonder if they'll actually vanish him for 2 years like in the books. theon's reintroduction was probably my favorite thing post-book-3 and i suspect it would have been less effective had GRRM peeked in on him even once during the interim

i didn't much like how the jon/halfhand thing happened either - also needlessly vague. i mean, it was clear enough what qhorin was trying to do, but there was no moment when the penny seemed to drop for jon, and in the end he killed him cos he said something mean about his unknown mam. at least they got where they needed to be, by a roundabout way.

I'd go so far as to say that they really messed up this stuff. Not only did the writers/Kit Harrington turn Jon into an ineffectual, drooling idiot, like, someone whom the Night's Watch would actually kick out, he dragged down Qhorin's BAMFness too.

They also changed Ramsay/Reek into Dagmar Cleftjaw.

I do not look forward to Ian's return, I'll have to make sure my eyes are ready to roll.

However, any new scenes with Varys are so much A++++.

yeah but needs less Ros. When they introduced Dontos in the first episode of s2 and then cut out that whole storyline including finding out Littlefinger was behind it all, it makes Sansa seem stupid for not going with the Hound, when in the book it's cos she has this other escape plan in the works.

http://f.cl.ly/items/281S2K19293C1c110Z0P/Screen%20shot%202012-06-05%20at%205.21.50%20PM.png

today is really having a strong finish

Bf asked me the same while viewing "What's milk of the puppy?" Some people just have not read enough poison & dagger-laden fantasy novels, jeez.

I've never thought I was partic good at following intrigue, based on my inability to get more than like 5 sentences into denser political articles without my eyes blurring, and me figuring that politics was basically the same thing, but non-fantasy people watching this show make me feel like a fucking genius.

finally watched this last night. was the crazy white walker monster at the end supposed to be coldhands??

no

the white dudes on the horses are Others. it's implied that coldhands is reanimated dead. he also wears nights watch duds.

and he rides a stag

or an elk

yeah i was a bit confused since he didn't immediately kill samwell

If you were a scary supernatural being, would you feel threatened enough by Sam to kill him?

But yeah, Coldhands crossed my mind too.

it's never mentioned who coldhands is in the books right? are we supposed to believe that he's benjo or whatver the stark's ranger uncle's name is?

benjy is the prime suspect

this season was so much better than the corresponding book. arya's story was WAY improved in pretty much every way.

agreed.

so they're gonna start off season 3 with the red wedding? that should get everyone all riled up!

They're STARTING with that? Holy shit.

no way that's true

source?

just pure conjecture, but we've got the background all set up, and it would be a hell of a kickoff. get em yammering at the watercoolers and whatnot.

nah they'll stretch it out, red wedding will be episode 8 or 9 of season 3. They're introducing all the tullys from the casting stuff upthread so that'll all have to go down for a few episodes. They'll give us more of the Boltons, etc.

yeah we haven't even met the tullys yet so there's that whole bit at riverrun to get through first

they also have to set up Beric Dondarrion's death defying abilities

And the Martells, maybe?

Martells don't figure much into RW, though?

Riiight. So, if they split Book 3 into two seasons, it stands to reason that Red Wedding happens at the end of Season 3, and "RIP Lysa, Tywin, Shae" happens at the end of Season 4

If that's the case, I wonder what else would happen in Season 4, seeing as Theon, Hound, Cat and Robb would be gone/out of the picture. They'd surely have to introduce some of the new characters? I guess we'll be seeing a lot of the Boltons...

presumably a lot of the earlier stuff in AFFC would be happening in season 4. A lot of the iron islands stuff happens chronologically not long after Balon kicks it, which is around the same time as the RW.

Joffrey's wedding happens after the RW, as would Tyrion's trial, which will mean Oberyn (at least).

they'll also need to do the whole storyline with the Eyrie.

yeah I'm guessing joffreys wedding/death spectacular around midway season 4 with the aftermath (particularly tyrion's trial lasting longer/being a bigger deal in the show) taking up the rest of that season.

god i can't wait to see that little fuck choke to death. the hbo nation will cheer!

I don't think I've ever looked forward to a scene in anything so much.

What if they change it so he doesn't die and he stays around forever it's possible

eternal sadface

that would be amazing

And what if the show gradually comes around to his POV

what if they kill Tommen instead

Ser Pounce's head on a pike ;_;

definitely give Cersei more to do in Season 5 besides sit around getting wasted

Tommen should instead waste away of ennui

http://takalak.narod.ru/gorey/img/NisforNeville.gif

Mark my prediction:

First scene of season 3, Jon Snow administering 'the Lord's Kiss'

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/russell.jpg

WE CAN HAZ BLACKFISH.

Oo, nice.

Flawless, better than your faves, etc.

Mackenzie Crook has been seen round Belfast with the cast. As has this guy: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1528121/ Nooooo idea who either of them might be.

perhaps edmure tully for the latter?

or either of them i guess

mackenzie crook is creepy enough to be a ramsay, if he can also be sinister

mace tyrell is in kings landing by the start of book 3 right? someone will have to be him.

does ramsay actually get important screen time before book 5? i can't remember

mackenzie crook is creepy enough to be a ramsay, if he can also be sinister

He doesn't seem menacing enough to me. I always pictured Ramsay as looking like Glenn Danzig.

He's far too old to be Ramsay I think. He was ruled out for Vargo Hoat earlier. One of the Brotherhood?

does ramsay actually get important screen time before book 5?

he should've been prominent in the winterfell scenes this past season but they kept him outside the gates. it's confirmed that they are casting him for s3 tho, so they are obv going to establish him with theon somehow.

Mackenzie Crook as Ramsay Snow Bolton could actually be genius.

Theon isn't in book 3, but the producers are going to include him next year, so I assume we'll get Ramsay too.

More casting: http://winteriscoming.net/2012/07/season-three-casting-announced/

Looks like they recast Beric after all, though he's supposed to be all chewed up and unrecognizable in his reappearance in the books.

Surprised that they went with a well-known actress for Queen of Thorns who wasn't Maggie Smith or Judi Dench. I'd expected a no-name stage actress.

And this from the other thread:

also *sigh*...so many new bloody characters. A bunch need to die quickly.

had me lolling.

same

apparently Mance Rayder's not cast yet

Also - Tobias Menzies (Brutus from Rome) is Edmure!

From a few days ago:

Filming starts Friday night in Northern Ireland on the most famous scene of “Games of Thrones” — the Red Wedding.

And, according to a casting notice, the show is looking for amputees to act as extras in the bloody episode.

“Seeking LEG ONLY, MALE AMPUTEES,” reads the notice posted on an Irish casting Web site.

Interested actors are required to send “a clear description regarding where your limb is missing eg. at knee, at ankle, etc.”

Bring on the bodies.

I saw that. It's going to be the penultimate episode of the season. GRRM is doing one script, but not for that episode.

The Red Wedding takes pace about 2/3rds of the way through the book, no?

Well, the stuff in Slaver's Bay is probably going to be all over the place and the sheer amount of shit that follows the Red Wedding plus the need to set up stuff for AFFC/ADWD (Dorne's not even going to be in s3) and the need to flesh out more of the series mythos/~mysteries should make it work out I think.

Not looking forward to the Robb/Grey Wind Frankensteining. :\

Maybe for all the Dorne stuff, they can do like a spinoff, so we can get all the Swarthy Sexiness while we wait for the main stories to resume.

The Gashlycrumb Westerosi

nice!

And referring to my post the other day, more on the filming of, you know, THAT scene.

Maps!

http://io9.com/5954289/at-last-official-maps-of-george-rr-martins-lands-from-westeros-to-qarth

Time to update my gps.

Although knowing my gps it would keep telling me to make a left turn directly into The Wall.

http://www.windsofwinterrelease.com/can-asoiaf-be-finished-in-two-books/

Balon Swann and Obara’s Hunt for Darkstar
Sounds like a Yes/Dead collaboration.

that page is actually super useful, i won't have to reread all the books when the next one is finally out again

omg i dont remember any of that shit

I can't conceive of this guy finishing this stuff elegantly or within any of our lifetimes

Especially since he has been having emo meltdowns over the Jets.

I've enjoyed the series so far, but am reserving judgment until it's done because he'll either wrap it up with some kind of mindblowing ending that will tie together all the strands in a way you never saw coming, or he'll fail miserably and it will end as a nonsensical mess. Right now, either is fairly likely, but books 4 and 5 made me think he's drifting toward the latter option.

5 definitely an improvement on 4, in terms of not being mostly quite boring, but the narrative momentum remains incredibly slow compared to the first three.

huh, totally passed me by that it was supposedly jaqen who killed pate and then assumed his identity

Yeah, what? Don't even remember any hints that that had happened.

Yeah the description of the guy who kills pate is essentially identical to the description of jaqen's new identity in the last arya chapter in aCoK.

Baelor the Blessed, you need a long memory to keep up with this.

Who the eff is Pate.

Yeah, srsly though, I don't think anyone on ILX deciphered that connection, we are not supernerds or anything.

Who the eff is Pate.

Prologue of book 4 he is killed and lastish chapter of book 4 we see the faceless man whose taken his identity working subterfuge in the citadel.

/supernerd

Balon Swann and Obara’s Hunt for Darkstar

can't remember what any of these things are

huh, totally passed me by that it was supposedly jaqen who killed pate and then assumed his identity

yeah same with this

it's funny how everything on westeros sounds like it's heading towards a thrilling conclusion (except dorne, fuck those olive-eating shits) and everything that's not just makes me think OH GOD HE WROTE THAT AND HE IS GOING TO WRITE MORE OF THAT

I'm planning to re-read these. I have a feeling that there are lots of details that I kind of glossed over the first time that will seem much more relevant now that I've read all the books.

most of those are just inside jokes about football

he started in 1991.

he has less than a decade to finish them in less time than it took for the actual wars of the roses to happen

yeah every time i remember that dany is still puttering around in the boring eastern continent after FIVE BOOKS i get mad

http://duke.a-13.net/

the first time i read the series i was already mostly uninterested in her storyline by mid-book-2, there's literally only one Dany chapter in the series so far that's as exciting as the westeros stuff (the one where she fake-offers the dragon to the slave master and then torches him and steals the army)

find it hard to not process the "but see, getting rid of the slavers solved NOTHING" bullshit that followed as anything but horribly racist tbh

i liked dany's chapters in the first three books, i liked the mysterious east and her time in the house of prophecy and all that jazz, lots of westeros stuff was just bran the boring crying about how hes a cripple now

yeah i actually liked them more the 2nd time around but they still felt slower paced than the rest of the storylines, until books 4 and 5 when everything else slowed down too

anyone remember that blog post linked here a while ago about how the treatment of dany in the books was better because the scene where she had sex with the guy she'd been sold to was somehow 'not a rape' but in the tv show it was 'definitely a rape'

destroy nerd culture

Balon Swann and Obara’s Hunt for Darkstar

can't remember what any of these things are

huh, totally passed me by that it was supposedly jaqen who killed pate and then assumed his identity

yeah same with this

― Yorkshire lass born and bred, that's me, said Katriona's hologram. (thomp)

Balon is a Kingsguard, Obara I think is a Sand Snake, Darkstar is a Grateful Dead jam that tried to kill Myrcella.

find it hard to not process the "but see, getting rid of the slavers solved NOTHING" bullshit that followed as anything but horribly racist tbh
No, that's exactly why she stays to rule Meereen, after destroying Astapor and the city collapsing on itself. He enjoys writing about the learning to rule process so that's why we get that. Getting rid of the slavers did change things, but there was nothing there to replace the system - that's why that turned out badly. I really don't see him being pro-slavery. At all.

From the Who thread:

Clara is dating Robb Stark irl.

... but not for long!

Do the Freys know?

new sample chapter from winds of winter: http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

sweet illustration

Beyonce is Arianne Martell?!?!

I was waiting to use that since I read the story yesterday. I knew GRRM would be productive now that his football season is over.

quick reminder to the unwary clicker, this is the spoiler thread
also i guess this is potentially a spoiler about a difference between the books and the tv show, so if that is something you are bothered about this is fair warning

all that being said...

i think i have mentioned before that a good friend of mine knows the actor who plays robb. the guy himself has said that he will be appearing in seasons - seasons plural - after season 3. SEASONS PLURAL. has someone (max?) seen an advance copy of season 3 to help corroborate?

I think it may be that Storm of Swords is broken into 2 seasons because it is so long.

i should have emphasized that this was seasons, plural

Red Wedding is slated to happen this season though...

so he's supposed to show up even in season 5? seems like a stretch...

i havent seen any of s3 but! maybe flashbacks?

or maybe like--he might be on contract for 5 seasons even if they dont play on using him?

i wondered about flashbacks. but why? or i guess they could zombie him, but again... i am hoping this was some kind of denial/big talk

supposedly red wedding is happening in the 9th ep of this season, much like they put the biggest moments from the past 2 seasons in the 9th ep? or at least they released the episode titles and the title of that one is 'the rains of castamere' so what else could it be really

Robb Zombie?

Aw cmon, I thought that was mildly clever!

no spoilers

My bad. ._.

But anyway, maybe that's the route they take instead of UnCat?

feels like way to big a shift away from the books imo.

ffs, xpost

Premier was pretty good overall.

things I liked:

-Tywin/Tyrion scene. So cold.
-Margaery Tyrell's PR stunt + playing Joffrey and Cersei against each other
-Glad they threw out the "Whitebeard" stuff and just let Barristan Selmy be himself.
-The giant looked pretty cool. More human-like than in the books, but just weird enough.
-The stuff with Danaerys and the Unsullied was great and played pretty much exactly as in the books.
-Dragon fishing. Those critters are so fucking cute. I want one.

things I did not care for:
-Weird, awkward cold opening.
-Mance Rayder introduction felt a tad off, especially Jon's justification for joining the wildlings.
-No mammoths (yet). I hope they don't save them for next season or omit them entirely. That would suck.
-No Strong Belwas ;_; He was such a colorful, over-the-top character in the books. I'll miss him.

I actively cannot wait for Robb to die. They've destroyed Catelyn's character & his. The showmakers seem to love taking the tropes subverted by GRRM and playing them straight.

no strong belwas?? fuck that

the scene where he takes a victory shit in front of the whole city is probably the highlight of literature in the last century

judging by typical practice on the show, they will keep that highlight but simplify things by having another character drop the load

No Strong Belwas ;_;

OTM. Pretty much agree with all of Latebloomer's points actually.

Glad to see Tormund, always had a soft spot for him.

I was going to say that Strong Belwas is so one-dimensional that leaving him out is no big loss but then H4A set me right straight.

judging by typical practice on the show, they will keep that highlight but simplify things by having another character drop the load

Obviously Barristan.

Love Tormund in the books, but this guy hasn't show his joie de vivre yet. I mean, not a single dick joke out of him yet. ;_;

(Let's just pretend I know English and that I originally wrote "shown" in my previous post.)

wait do we know for sure that strong belwas is out? might he just make his appearance differently?

Don't think he's been announced in the cast.

Barristan the Load.

WHERE ARE MY MAMMOTHS

Don't think we'll be getting the Bloody Mummers.

Not seen #2 yet (do the Yanks get this stuff before us Britishers?) but I've gotta say that I really wasn't impressed with the first episode whatsoever.

Just feels like there's a few too many balls in the air right now, the different plots seemed to be getting about half as much air-time as they could do with. Just me feeling this way?

I hope they can rein it in a bit before too long(obvs. the number of characters is gonna drop pretty dramatically quite soon). Would be delighted for them to prove me wrong, but right now I'm concerned that this show is going to go a bit off the boil (until the end of the season anyway, which will surely be all kinds of batshit crazy)

Don't think we'll be getting the Bloody Mummers.
we are, but Vargo Hoat has a different name. And the hand is definitely going.

post about the "200 northmen slaughtered like sheep" at harrenhal got me thinking. i really don't know who these people are supposed to be. were these the non-bolton elements of a northern contingent, killed by the bolton troops before they head of in the direction of riverrun? they seem to be holding back the elements of the bolton betrayal for a big splashy reveal but it is making unsatisfying holes in the narrative

also: show speculation/spoiler

fairly obvious but if you hadn't already realized, the guy who says he's going to help theon escape is ramsay. in the preview of next week you see him releasing theon into the woods, to be hunted.

WHERE ARE MY MAMMOTHS

It was either them or the giant, my guess.

Just feels like there's a few too many balls in the air right now, the different plots seemed to be getting about half as much air-time as they could do with. Just me feeling this way?

My first instinct was to say no (I haven't liked either episode this season, btw), but trying to figure out why, it's probably because everything's moving really slowly, a lot of boring talk sandwiching the set pieces, which haven't been that impressive to begin with (Gwen Christie doesn't handle a sword that well, imo), i.e. too many plots diluting the storytelling.

Roberto, I may have read this instead of getting it from the episode itself, but I believ the Mountain killed a bunch of prisoners before high-tailing it out of Harrenhal.

I am *not* looking forward to the Theon/Ramsay stuff. Thought the Reek stuff was insipid to begin with, now it looks like we're getting torture porn too with it now, hoorah.

Also been wondering, if R + L = J, how are they going to swing that on the show? It's going to be pretty anticlimactic considering where R and L currently are.

Last bit: should people not point out things like thomp's post in the other thread? That's just going to validate things to the non-book readers and remove doubt that they're spoilers.

totally lost here, can't seem to figure out who R+L = J are.

Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon? Which, let's face it, pretty much has to be the case now unless GRRM is pulling an almighty swerve

ah ok thx. but then i don't understand leee's comment about how it'd be really anticlimactic considering where R and L are. i mean they're dead and all but that's never stopped a show.

I get what he means to the extent that by this point in the books, sooooo much has been made of Lyanna and Rhaegar's backstory (the heavy hints that them absconding was an elopement rather than a kidnap, the flashbacks to Ned Stark battling the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, 'Promise me Ned', that little story about the tourney in the year of the False Spring that Meera tells Bran and Jojen, and about a dozen other little odds and ends scatted through the text) that it's basically impossible to miss that whole subplot and see where it's leading.

But the series has made so little of any of it, Rhaegar and Lyanna haven't really been present whatsoever except for the first ep. when Robert Baratheon goes to visit Lyanna's tomb and that little bit of the story gets told.

Basically I totally see why they feel that they feel that stuff is not totally essential so far and could be cut, and of course they could always retcon it back during a later series somehow. But the "WHO IS JON SNOW?" storyline, which is essentially the whole thrust of his narrative and is clearly building to the massive reveal (this'll be Howland Reed's function, right?), just isn't really present in the tv show. If they reveal it with this little build it'll probably just raise a bit of a shrug from peeps who've not read the books. "Oh, so Jon and Dany are related?" or whatever.

Yeah Windsor 100% otm, better than I could've explained it, too.

R and L have been such non-entities on the show that bringing them in only via exposition would imo be bad storytelling. And since the show doesn't really do flashbacks outside of the House of the Undying and some green dreams, I don't see the actual characters getting onscreen, which makes me wonder if Jon's parentage matters on a) the show (apparently no) and b) the books.

maybe they think seeding something in early seasons for a reveal in later seasons is a waste of time, and they'll just go heavy on it closer to the time. but in the books it has got to be a Big Deal surely

thanks for the refresher. it's got me to think about stupid scenarios for the books, such as jon ending up with daenerys, bro&sis reunited, targaryen style (wait he's actually daenerys' nephew right?) and they'll rule it all with their dragons and giants&mammoths. only problem to that is we're supposed to believe jon's been killed at the wall no?

Flat out not having it that Jon Snow is dead at this point, largely due to the aforementioned foreshadowing regarding the importance of his parentage (btw, Dany/Jon/Tyrion turning out to be Targaryens each riding their own dragon is gonna happen fo sho).

Tbh while I luurrrve GRRM’s swerves and twists, I do think his ‘gratuitously killing off the main characters’ thing is massively overstated. At various points during the narrative we’ve been led to believe that Catelyn, Theon, Bran and Rickon have been killed only for them to pop back up, the Hound’s definitely still knocking about somewhere out there, the Mountain’s about to make his comeback as a zombie bodyguard for Cersei etc. etc. And for my money Jon Snow is definitely gonna see out this story in some form or another.

Really only Ned, Robb, Tywin and Joffrey qualify as massive name characters getting the chop, and those all work perfectly for the storylines and in hindsight don’t seem so WTF as they did at first. Four big characters in 5 books isn't outrageous, even if it is still more than say Potter or LOTR or whatever.

Part of the reason I’m excited for the next book is that I think we really ought to be over the hump of the narrative now, there are so many characters running around with enough build and backstory for us to care (and who have all managed to more or less avoid each other so far) that we ought to be able to see some pretty spectacular showdowns and deaths coming up. No reason why GRRM shouldn’t return to the pacing of Storm of Swords any time from now, basically.

Oh and Renly I spose. And Viserys. And Khal Drogo. And Lord Mormont. Alright, there is quite a few. But I'd argue that these guys aren't really essential.

yeah, i think most readers have gotten a bit tired of Martin's fakeout deaths. Hence the rather underwhelmed reaction to Jon Snow's supposed demise

yeah no way is jon dead (hence my supposed to believe). tyrion being a targaryen is a bit more farfetched no? once again my memory of the books isn't that great, i remember the character arcs m/l, the details less so, is there really a lot leading to believe tyrion is a targaryen? tbh i'd love to see him riding a dragon but um daenerys isn't v likely to be friendly to a lannister. sorry to be asking all of this when i guess i could google.

Oh yeah no doubt the whole Tyrion-is-a-Targ thing is just one among many wild fan theories flying about, it's just one of my personal favs. Tyrion as child of Mad King Aerys, hence the everlasting hatred zinged his way by Tywin, the apparently constant antagonism and tension between Tywin and Aerys etc. And there has been all that signposting shit about Tyrion designing his very own saddle so he can ride a horse, or maybe, just maybe..... a DRAGON?!

Having said that, all of that stuff can be (and has been) explained away perfectly simply without any of the conspiracy theory stuff. It's just an idea that I kinda like.

the tyrion thing is pretty loose and i don't know if i believe it. though the one interesting point that comes up in those discussions is that dany, tyrion, and jon (assuming the R+L thing here) are the three characters who 'killed' their mothers in childbirth which seems like a non-coincidence

you guys, the reason Jon isn't dead is because his mind jumped into his wolf; I really don't see Dany marrying an actual wolf

The reason Jon isn't dead is because the Red Lady's gonna work some voodoo magic on him because he is the PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED

he's presumably not going to stay a wolf though

dany said she'd never marry again, so you know she can a direwolf to her ménagerie of dragons
but yeah red lady magic has to be on the way.

* she can add

he's presumably not going to stay a wolf though

It would be fun if he did!

we already have a supposed 3rd targ without needing tyrion tho right?

not too sure about that guy's credentials

Yeah, not long after I read the last book I read a decent analysis of the Dany scene in the Houses of the Undying when she has all those visions (I think it was this point, anyway? or maybe it was something that witchy Quaithe character said perhaps?) and there's a mention of the Mummer's Dragon being carried aloft over the crowds or something.

This Aegon kid ain't no Targ, but he'll make a decent puppet king for Varys till Danaerys gets back and starts fucking shit up

that is interesting in not wholly convincing. personally i thought he seemed like an obvious late write-in, without any real trademark foreshadowing, so i would guess grrm had a different plan for the 3rd head but it wasn't panning out or he tripped himself up. otherwise, why bother with the kid at all?

if not wholly convincing, obv

I assumed that the kid is just a part of Varys’s masterplan, and as such no great degree of foreshadowing is required for him. His is not the story really, it’s all about Varys. It could also act as a good catalyst to lurch Dany into action at long fucking last once Tyrion’s passed on the news to her.

maybe Varys is the third Targ

Maybe Rhaegar warged into Pretty Pig.

Lots of talk about Rhaegar this episode, HMMMM.

Lot of interesting deviations from the books, too, IIRC.

Someone frequents asoiafcirclejerk!

If they've mentioned Rhaegar this week, my hope is that they do the Knight of the Laughing Tree somehow, as that's one of my favourite parts of the series and it brings Lyanna back into the story.

personally i thought he seemed like an obvious late write-in, without any real trademark foreshadowing
IIRC, loads of people suspected Aegon wasn't dead, judging by questions put to Martin back in the day. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1189/ & http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1106/

You could also argue that his reappearance is foreshadowed in the House of the Undying visions, that story about the dragon inn sign in AFFC etc - but all as a Blackfyre.

well what do you know

I don't remember Varys having kidnapped the guy who gelded him in the books, did it happen?

I don't think so. But it was a great moment on the show, so

He didn't, but the speech was more or less word for word. It will also make what happens at the end of ADWD less of a shock to the audience in one sense.

I was thinking about the following comment by Matt DC in the other thread:

Pretty much half the dudes in this are idiot manchildren who are in their position purely as a result of stuff their dad did.

If I’m not mistaken, doesn’t a character’s season of birth foreshadow their rectitude? I couldn’t find anything on Wikipedia. Maybe I imagined the relationship?

Probably shouldn't search for rectitude on Wikipedia.

Seven Hells, the Arya/Gendry shippers are going to go nuts with this episode.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/45349_10151547865212943_1425544059_n.jpg

Any reason that's in the spoiler thread?

Because George is about to eat him.

Oh right.

so when are we getting the red wedding? is it gonna be the season finale, or

penultimate ep

so lots of divergences last night no? melisandre and whatnot?

Gendry does fuck all for the rest of the books, right? Might as well get him off the payroll

in the books gendry kind of disappears and melisandre uses a different king robert bastard for her ritual thing, makes sense to just re-use him instead of introducing another character

Yeah basically they're reincorporating elements of the character Edric Storm into Gendry and Stannis's daughter Shireen

i was initially Outraged but then immediately i realized it totally didn't matter and actually worked ok. more of the condensing the show is doing to generally good effect.

i ave noticed some comments bout when bran and his gang are going to get wherever they're going. by my guess they will be heading north without getting anywhere for this season, all of next, and at least a good portion of the the 5th. i am very curious about what they are going to do to draw out some arcs the book shelved for a time. theon this season has been a mixed bag already. and are osha and rickon going to fuck off at some point so davos can rescue them from cannibals or some shit?

someone remind me what prompts osha and rickon to separate off from bran & reeds, i can't remember

they are separated right away i think? to reduce the chances of losing both potential stark heirs to the same calamity i guess.

i wonder at what point they're going to chop the season, there's probably like 4 episodes worth of stuff that happens after the red wedding so they can't exactly finish the whole book. i thought they were going to stick joffrey's wedding in the finale but then i realized that requires introducing the dornish crew who show up for the wedding and i don't think they are cast yet? i guess maybe they end on stannis heading north, and they could potentially finish arya's storyline, as well as sam's and bran's, without joffrey's wedding happening

ya i cant imagine they'll do 2 badass weddings this season?

and the whole tyrion-tywin bathroom business

If they cram all that into this season people who haven't read the books will be so unjustifiably stoked for the epic events of season/book 4 :/

well yeah theres the whole arc of tyrion taking the blame for joffrey's death which includes viper vs mountain trial by combat, etc. they're clearly pushing most of this off to season 4

agree there is no way we get joffrey wedding in. the pattern with the first two seasons was the explosion was in the 2nd last episode and then the last one was a bit of an epilogue-y aftermath and obligatory cliffhanger. curious what the cliffhanger will be.

the viper vs mountain thing, i say this a lot, absolute highlight of the entire series for me, crazy thrilling in the book

cliffhanger will surely be Caetlyn

curious what the cliffhanger will be.

Mance Rayder's army approaching wall with mammoths, giants, etc

it's gotta be that. they have to be holding off on the mammoths for a reason other than budget.

I'd bet it all on it being catelyn's reanimation. Closes the dondarrion story nearly and you can't kill her, have her body in a river for what viewers will interpret as 10 months, then go through all the events of season 4 before dondarrion showing back up to give his life for a character we've thought was dead for a year now.

Also gives them a chance to start the hunting of the freys path for the brotherhood that took place mainly in the background of the books.

maybe both will get in there, they both make sense. that'd be a doozy to go out on.

yeah they'll probably have multiple cliffhangers

i feel like davos's redemption / convincing stannis to head for the wall has to be in the finale, they're already setting it up with having him learn to read. thats one of my fav scenes from the book too even though its kind of small and underwritten compared to the other things going on at the same time

Mance Rayder's army approaching wall with mammoths, giants, etc

― lego maniac cop (latebloomer), Monday, May 6, 2013 4:42 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

this would be lame imo

feel like no one really cares about where mance rayder's army goes atm

OTOH if it ends with redhaired northling whatshernameagain getting owned that would be pretty huge, feel like they're def building to that now that i think of it

well she gets killed during that battle in the books, so i'm assuming they're heading there

ya i think they'd have to actually do the battle, not just have ominous approaching, to make that satisfying

that'll be next year presumably? His story this year's gotta end with him splitting from the wildlings and rejoining the watch.

actually looking at the wiki, yeah I think this season must end with the skirmish b/w the wildling raiders and the skeleton crew at the wall. Just not enough time to build to that big battle and it gives Jon something to do next year.

I just want to see some giants riding mammoths dammit

another question is how much of dany's stuff they are going to cram in. will they settle with the defeat of yunkai or will she get as far as meereen?

there's only four episodes left! they just started marching to yunkai! remember there's a whole season after this one based mostly on storm of swords' back half so meereen will be most of dany's story in season 4.

the viper vs mountain thing, i say this a lot, absolute highlight of the entire series for me, crazy thrilling in the book

― max, Monday, May 6, 2013 4:18 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

seconded, i was reading this part in a laundromat and i had to contain myself i wanted to scream 'omg omg omg' so much.

yeah that's hands down the most intense scene in the books to date

You're forgetting the scenes with Ser Pounce in them

thirding viper vs mountain, its one of the best executed rug-pulled-from-under-you scenes in the books

i feel like davos's redemption / convincing stannis to head for the wall has to be in the finale, they're already setting it up with having him learn to read. thats one of my fav scenes from the book too even though its kind of small and underwritten compared to the other things going on at the same time

― ciderpress, Monday, May 6, 2013 4:59 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

thats a fav of mine too

i feel like the show has criminally underserved davos who is a totally underrated character in the books.

agreed

Fourthing viper vs mtn, unforgettable scene that leaves you fucking shaking.

With the show, I'm in a p nice place at this point where between the changes/composites they're making and my faded memory of what actually happens in the books, I'm in just the right amount of suspense.

Love the Viper, which makes me think that they'll be saving his fight vs. Mountain to the back half of S4.

I don't think that Cat's going to be shown resurrected this season, because presuming that RW is happening in episode 9, I don't think her return is going to be that powerful if it happens just an episode later. But bugger all if I know of a more logical place for it to take place (maybe we see Nymeria dragging her body from the river)?

You're forgetting the scenes with Ser Pounce in them

QFT.

i feel like the show has criminally underserved davos who is a totally underrated character in the books.

I thought Davos was a big fan fave in the books?

But yes, he's offscreen far too much on the show. >=(

oh davos might be a big fan fave, idk, i just read them all a year ago and don't know much about what the ~fandom~ hive mind thinks.

Fandom loves Davos, Tyrion, and Arya, thinks Catelyn is the antichrist, and are uncomfortably invested in the relationships between Arya/Gendry, Sansa/Hound, and Jamie/Brienne.

So not only can we be impatient with GRRM for writing so slow, but his publishers for taking their goddamn sweet time too. I remember when I asked about the ADWD paperback at a store in March, they told me it had just been pushed back a fourth(!) time until May. Just went on the B&N website to see that it has now been pushed back again, until October. Jesus.

With the show, I'm in a p nice place at this point where between the changes/composites they're making and my faded memory of what actually happens in the books, I'm in just the right amount of suspense.

― Moron Tabernacle Chior (Jon Lewis)

ha this is exactly where i am also, i read the first three books in between season one and season two and it really hampered my ability to enjoy season two. either the changes they made annoyed me (and this is rarely the case) or it was too condensed or they just couldn't pull stuff off on the show ('blackwater' comes to mind). there was also a certain deliberate bleakness in book two, martin making it clear how brutal the war is for the powerless and that knights are generally little more than effective murderers that in the show just gets reduced to so much corny grit. there's also some fleshing out of characters (stannis esp) and backstory stuff that was more easily understood to be missing in an adaptation. this season enough time has passed that i don't mind as much and i think at the same time they've improved enough at adapting that i've either enjoyed the changes or enjoyed seeing how the show has strengthened or brought to life certain aspects of the book (snow and ygritte esp).

was joffrey a weird murder-sex perv in the books? thats a big change in characterization i think

I don't think he was shown doing anything quite that horrible, but it's not really much of a stretch.

idk! hes clearly shown to be a horrible kid but hes also pretty clearly just a fucked up kid w/ father issues and too much power, not like a budding sex murderer

yeah, in the books I think there's more of a sense of his sadistic tendencies belonging to a spoiled and cruel child, where the series has gone for the full-blown psychopath. idk, i kind of feel like making his lack of empathy congenital is a bit of a waste, e.g. you lose the motivation for him deciding to have Bran killed, which in the books is about wanting to fulfil his father's wishes. His relationship with his mother also seems different -- in the books there's much less of the sense that she's ever attempted to be a restraining hand, but the series makes a big deal of him threatening her for getting in his way.

I used to think that the characterisation change was partly a result of the ageing-up and so the need to deal with adolescent development in a different way (which i think kind of explains some of the Robb-Talisa story, given the jeyne westerling stuff is supposed to happen when he's sixteen but in the show he'll be 18 by then and given the super-sexy treatment it'd take a lot of explaining if an 18-year-old king surrounded by camp followers for 2 years was that kind of romantically/sexually naive). but joffrey isn't aged up by more than a year, so. i guess it's just "incest corrupts the mind" + "this is what a psychopath looks like on television"

totally, well put

yeah i'll admit that i was a lil taken aback at the whole crossbow thing---i remember him being cruel, but not delighting in cruelty a la the bastard

ionoman we don't get any POV closeups but iirc it's p clear from day 1 that IT'S A GOOD LIFE is playing 24/7 in king's landing once lil joff gets his crown

Ha that's true

in the books sansa was to be wed to some random tyrell cousin, right? also i don't recall cersei being told to marry loras

loras's brother. another sensible write-out/merge, actually adds to the pathos of it

loras was already in the kingsguard at that point, so it wouldn't have been an option - cersei's marriage to someone is suggested though iirc

sansa thought for a second she was going to be wed to loras and then margaery was all "haha no silly he can't marry anyone, we want you to marry my older brother willas, he is sweet and gentle and likes puppies and can't walk due to a riding accident"

Loras was like the third son, and outside of cock, mainly interested in serving in the Kings Guard, so no marriage intrigue there. Sansa was to marry one of his else brothers, who happened to be lame in a leg but smarter than most of the Tyrells.

I wanted her to marry Willas, I think that might have been her only chance not to end up with a horrible life.

i wanted her to elope with the hound

i did too kinda

You guys are my sworn enemies.

getting rid of all that crap with the drunk knight was definitely a good move

The weird thing is that they introduced him right at the beginning of S2, but then he never came back as far as I know (haven't seen any of S3 yet).

You guys are my sworn enemies.

getting rid of all that crap with the drunk knight was definitely a good move

Dontos is supposed to make a return - maybe next series?

surely it'd be quite a significant departure if they dropped the Alayne Stone story entirely -- I'm kind of curious how they'd manage to do it given how much they've decided to have Varys know.

Varys could likely have known all that though - he doesn't give a shit because it suited his agenda. The problem is the Lannisters knowing.

is the lorays being gay stuff ever made explicit in the books at all?

IIRC there's no actual sex scene but multiple ppl talk about Renly and Loras boning

yeah, it's not on screen but it's implied many times. i think one of the main differences in their sexual relationship is that in the books margaery never actually joins the two for a menage? it's just 'joked' about?

i dont see why they would drop the alayne arc, it would happen next season anyway, sansa escapes right after joffrey's wedding

Looking at the upcoming ep titles is interesting to guess where they'll end up re books 3/4
407 Bear and the Maiden Fair - Jaime rescues Brienne (or maybe doesn't manage to, I can see her vanishing after this season since you don't necessarily need her for the Catelyn reveal, and her death would spur Jaime to straighten up?), also Yunkai arrival, Tyrion/Sansa
408 Second Sons - ref. to Jeoffrey-Tommen / Tyrion-Jaime / the mercenary group defending Yunkai
409 Rains of Castermere - ref. to Tywin's ruthlessness, so Red Wedding
410 Mhysa - 'mother', taking of Yunkai, Arya bails for Braavos, Catelyn reveal which pays off all the resurrection stuff with the Bros., maybe even Jeoffrey's wedding as cliffhanger
No idea where the Wall stuff falls in this sequence

ya 409 will almost certainly be red-wed

i get nervous just thinking about it tbh

which episode do you think they'll have the ten minute scene of Theon's genitals getting mutilated

Oh man I know, enough already with that. I know torture porn is inherently medieval but damn

More I think about it, 410: Jeoffrey dies, Tyrion accused, Tommen as king with Cersei, Jaime arrives

tvguide type synopses -

407 Bear and the Maiden Fair - Dany exchanges gifts with a slave lord outside of Yunkai. As Sansa frets about her prospects, Shae chafes at Tyrion's new situation. Tywin counsels the king, and Melisandre reveals a secret to Gendry. Brienne faces a formidable foe in Harrenhal.

408 Second Sons - King's Landing hosts a wedding, and Tyrion and Sansa spend the night together. Dany meets the Titan's Bastard. Davos demands proof from Melisandre. Sam and Gilly meet an older gentleman.

409 Rains of Castermere - Robb presents himself to Walder Frey, and Edmure meets his bride. Jon faces his harshest test yet. Bran discovers a new gift. Daario and Jorah debate how to take Yunkai. House Frey joins with House Tully.

410 Mhysa - Joffrey challenges Tywin. Bran tells a ghost story. In Dragonstone, mercy comes from strange quarters. Dany waits to see if she is a conqueror or a liberator.

Robb presents himself to Walder Frey - heh

man i hope they don't let us on to shae's betrayal beforehand

Sam and Gilly meet an older gentleman.

haha

i love how deliberately understated these are! 'House Frey joins with House Tully'

'Bran tells a ghost story' in Mother episode - something to do with zombie cat?

i would guess the next episode is where the boltons have their proper coming out party as villains

This is the society-column proper-etiquette version of events

'Tyrion makes a point to Tywin'

"Joffrey challenges Tywin" will be the "sharp lesson" scene which should be excellent.

"meeting an older gentlemen" was kinda reminding me of the first 1/3 of Dostoevsky novels where it's all just gossiping about archaic social niceties

jawn snuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

lol

'Bran tells a ghost story' in Mother episode

Dany exchanges gifts with a slave lord outside of Yunkai.

Maybe SHE'S the one who drops the deuce???

haw

i would guess the next episode is where the boltons have their proper coming out party as villains

well we have psycho ramsay revealed ahead of time and it'll be bolton's own men rather than the mummers that put the maiden in with the bear, so i think things have accelerated somewhat on that front

roose is pretty clearly shown to be Not A Good Guy in this last episode, when he lets jaime go

Yeah but even so, big diff between "Not A Good Guy Who's Out For Himself" and "Not A Good Guy Who Makes Cloaks From The Skins Of Small Children".

I'm looking forward to the Boltons coming to the fore as baddies-in-chief for the series.

I haven't read the books; are the practical aspects of winter coming addressed at all? Like are there any voices of reason going "hey maybe we should all be focusing on stockpiling food rather than fighting wars, since we won't be able to grow crops for years on end" ?

Or am I misunderstanding how seasons work in this fantasy world.

not really since most of the characters are aristocratic and it's not as much of an issue for them. the 4th book actually has a bit of a subtheme in it of examining the effects of the war on the common people of westeros, not sure if any of that is going to make it into the tv series though

there is a lot of frowning about crops being ruined and not being ready for winter, but it is on the superficial side

fortunately there is a long lasting supply of carefully preserved dead human flesh making its way south, under its own power incredibly, like a morbid ice cream truck of anthropophagy

that would be a good direction for the series to take as it draws to a close

also yeah it's sort of implied that the threat of the coming winter is the white walkers returning, not the climate. the adult characters in the show have lived through a couple 'normal' winters which apparently aren't that bad. there's even some descriptions in the book about e.g. how winterfell is built on top of a big hot spring and thus has a natural heating system that keeps it nice in the winter

there was a scene at the beginning of S2 where they officially announced the end of summer and how long of a winter could be endured in King's Landing given the amount of stockpiles they had

I haven't read the books; are the practical aspects of winter coming addressed at all? Like are there any voices of reason going "hey maybe we should all be focusing on stockpiling food rather than fighting wars, since we won't be able to grow crops for years on end" ?

Or am I misunderstanding how seasons work in this fantasy world.

i have a friend who couldnt get over this when she was reading it, she was like "winter is coming for YEARS and everyone is running around burning all the crops, they're all so fucked!"

iirc the thing is that any head wise enough to be more concerned by crops than crowns has been cut off by the end of book 2

also yeah it's sort of implied that the threat of the coming winter is the white walkers returning

― ciderpress, Thursday, May 9, 2013

huh? no one even believes in "white walkers"

i think cider is right, there is portent or superstition about winter and "winter is coming" that is not just meteorological, even if no one actually believes in the others specifically.

I haven't read the books; are the practical aspects of winter coming addressed at all? Like are there any voices of reason going "hey maybe we should all be focusing on stockpiling food rather than fighting wars, since we won't be able to grow crops for years on end" ?

Or am I misunderstanding how seasons work in this fantasy world.

i have a friend who couldnt get over this when she was reading it, she was like "winter is coming for YEARS and everyone is running around burning all the crops, they're all so fucked!"

― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Thursday, May 9, 2013 10:36 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Spot on tbh. For a series which has made such a huge deal out of "like fantasy but REAL" to ignore this point would be a massive mis-step. Can only assume that this is going to become a major plot point in The Winds Of Winter, particularly given how fond GRRM seems to be of getting bogged down in tedious detail these days. But I suppose there's also always a chance that the economic, social and agricultural realities of a decades-long winter will get ignored and focus will instead be given to Daenaerys and the Dragons vs the White Walkers

I also agree that "Winter is coming" / the aura surrounding winter in these novels has always implied more than simply the risk of heavy snowfall.

also, there is too much ~symbolism~ with the seasons for the series to end in winter. something magical will happen and spring will arrive before shit gets too real i am sure, although i am sure there will be some food shortage drama at least alluded to along the way.

Heartbreakingly withered neeps

LOL. i suppose there are always olives growing somewhere, it'll be okay.

Spot on tbh. For a series which has made such a huge deal out of "like fantasy but REAL" to ignore this point would be a massive mis-step. Can only assume that this is going to become a major plot point in The Winds Of Winter, particularly given how fond GRRM seems to be of getting bogged down in tedious detail these days.

It's not ignored at all. House Tyrell controls the majority of the food supply in Westeros. The Crown is severely indebted to the point they have foreign debt-collectors after them, which would severely impact their ability to import food from elsewhere. Jaime advises peasants to try for one last harvest. There's a lot of talk about the Vale having a huge granary and basically untouched supplies. Etc.

I never bought into Jaime's redemption from the books -- for whatever reason, it felt superficial -- but I have to admit that NCW is making it real for me in a big way.

God damn, creeping closer to the RW. Wonder if Talisa was really writing to her mum.

Are we to assume Theon is now sans penis? He only lost a couple of fingers in the books right?

Heavily implied that he has been castrated in the later books iirc. In fact, probably slightly more than implied, he just never actually mentions it explicitly.

"reek, reek, my name is reek, rhyme with no dick"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTBBNVwz5Dc

yeah in the books i didn't really buy into jaime's arc until the end of book 4 when he threw cersei's plea for help into the fire, they're setting him up to be likable a lot earlier in the show though

Oh Sam, why didn't you take the knife with you?

Also, Daario doesn't look nearly as sleazy as he needs to be.

Sam and Gilly meet an older gentleman.

Bah, I thought this was going to be Benjen AKA Coldhands.

ha me too, but that is classic work by the summarizer there

tv show teaser-summary trolling is really becoming an artform before our eyes.

http://swan2swan.tumblr.com/post/50967460714/i-hope-the-fans-who-think-that-robb-needs-a

lol

Remind me: was Blackfish @ RW, only to slip away to take a piss in the books, too? I can't imagine GRRM would let something that trite happen.

no, he stayed to hold riverrun iirc?

Yeah, that's what I thought! I guess they just wanted BF there for the old lady lols?

sort of vaguely annoyed that changes like the death of talisa "spoil" the future of jeyne westerling in the books

i mean i never really bought the jeyne westerling is secretly pregnant/magic stuff, but

that kind of stuff will start happening a lot more i guess

pretty sure seasons after this one will deviate more and more towards a similar endgame as Martin's as they know the broad strokes of the story going forward and obv books 4 & 5 need some rewriting (and expecting season 4 to be m/l a tyrion-centric Law & Order: King's Landing thing after Joffrey kicks it around episode 3 or 4).

that was very well done i thot. very nice pacing of the moments right before things got stabby and nothing too heavy handed so that even tho you knew something was going to happen it was still given the chance to be shocking. i am cool with them trading the unconvincing speculation over jeyne for an awesome moment in the show. also a wee male heir is good for no one, this should all end with bran as a tree and a queen in the north.

really could've done with one more scene between daario, jorah and worm getting busy and then returning victorious. just a quick scene with some extras thrown together to show that some other people were involved. it was a little too brazen with the whole off-screen battle thing, close to self parody.

It wasn't very smooth, almost like a scene had been edited out.

Yeah that bit felt like a total cheat. Everything else in this episode tremendously well done, not just the RW. Bran discovering the extent of his powers had a real weight to it.

And Frey's introduction of his daughters/granddaughters was hilarious.

Yeah, Frey was killing his scenes, as it were.

this should all end with bran as a tree and a queen in the north.

Can a tree be a queen??

neither a queen nor a king i'll wager

so it has v slowly dawned on me, they have manufactured much more of a substantial reveal out of ramsay now that it matters more who roose is. i didn't really get why they were continuing to be so coy about that, and now it seems obvious but also inspired.

so what are the big shocking moments still to come? jon getting killed at the wall and tywin-tyrion and um can't really think of anything else

Cersei's downfall/degradation

oberyn vs gregor

the entirety of the royal wedding and it's immediate aftermath obviously too

oh yeah cersei & oberyn vs gregor. so sad for the red viper. also monster making in the deepest, darkest dungeons of king's landing.

dany pooping herself over and over

yeah they'll make some good fun out of qyburn's dark side, i'm sure.

stoneheart reveal still to come, presumably. have any other POV characters been killed since catelyn? other than lol jon snow who is prob not dead.

yeah can someone remind me whether all that stuff in book 4 that happened in Dorne was important?

the final reveal that doran has been working with Varys/Illyrio and plotting the downfall of the Lannisters all along seems maybe important in the endgame but the stuff in dance of dragons with quentyn and who's gonna marry who for political purposes just bored me to tears.

Quentyn worst character and subplot in the entire series.

PURPLE WEDDING!!!!!!!!!!

I'm ashamed of you all.

the entirety of the royal wedding and it's immediate aftermath obviously too

― Clay, Monday, June 3, 2013 7:45 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

._.

Also Littlefinger killing Lyssa.

i like that in the other thread some one is worrying about the possibility of there being starkzombies next season.
also i've been having a shitty time and the reactions to this ep are really making me feel a lot better. perfect distraction. that also pushed me into wanting more asoiaf so i ended up on a forum with heavy speculation about future books (including speculation about random characters i have no memory of) and i feel like some ppl have amazing memories and mucho time&dedication to these books

yh i feel this huge delight and admiration when i read speculation posts on... westeros.org, or wherever it is. people are so excited about these stories! they have noticed all these connections some of which may not actually exist! they are the best.

joffreys wedding
viper v mountain
tyrion killing tywin

and then basically nothing else

jon getting killed is anticlimactic since it seems so fake

all the iron islands/essos stuff is so terrible

although i think they stumbled this season in drawing the material out to have the red wedding hit episode 9, i have confidence in the dudes who are stage managing this affair and i think they will be pretty ruthless in discarding the chaff and keeping focus where grrm started to lose his. the show will probably make the later books seem better in retrospect. season 4 is going to start fast, which i think it will need to, and then there's going to be a lot of dorne. we'll see how they navigate that. iron islands are inevitably going to get short shrift.

yeah, i agree with that. was thinking yesterday that if you just describe the post-red wedding plot it sounds pretty good, but somehow grrm has been terrible at turning that into effective books

Awwwwright. The show's caught up to where I stopped reading.

I'm weirded out by the differences between book-Stannis and show-Stannis. What I like about book-Stannis is how righteous and stodgy he is, his desire for the crown seemed motivated by propriety more than power lust or religious motivation. Meanwhile, show-Stannis' plot is altered so that he meets the true heir, Gendry, and needs to be convinced not to off him. Weird?

Gendry's a bastard, he's only in the line of succession if he's legitimate.

They're just replaying the Edric Storm plotline from the books.

they do seem to have tried to make stannis more 'interesting' which i suppose is necessary for tv vs book. you have more latitude to make 'boring' characters more interesting on the page.

I am so excited for next season mainly for Dorne, the Martells are my boos.

That was a confusing misread

GRRM confirmed that RV is being cast. I say bring on the sexy brown people!!! (Btw, having "red" as an epithet apparently not a good look in the series.)

Trying to think of any other humorless, literal-minded, rule-abiding characters on tv shows. Marrimow on The Wire?

read an interview with michelle fairley where she talked about how she'll miss everyone, which i guess she has to say really, but still pretty lol. however, it made me realize, her continued involvement when they start filming again is going to get spoilered immediately.

Not if they introduce Stoneheart next episode- or if they've filmed ahead.

oh yeah i guess i was assuming it wouldn't be next episode but that would actually make perfect sense

Season cliffhanger is a toss up between zombie Cat and mammoths really.

DJP, my misread? I couldn't think of how to type that niggling concern sorry if it came out weird. It makes sense that a bastard can't claim a title on his own, but I thought Stannis would play it different, somehow. Something Arthurian. I guess getting your dick sucked for black magic was a pretty good consolation prize.

lol no, my misread of "the Martells are my boo(b)s"

(when in doubt, look for the labored dirty joke)

Good, I guessed right then. I must be learning to speak DJP after all.

final scene of seasons one and two have ended on a new intro to the supernatural in this world, so the reawakening of catelyn (plus giving new viewers a brief glimpse of hope and vengeance after last week's devastation) and closing out the dangling story of beric is pretty much inevitable in my mind.

I think it'd be strange, dramatically, to have her come back to life this coming ep, but we'll see. They've def. got to kill The Hound tho

I hope Littlefinger has arrived at the Eyrie, that'd be fun

Sandor is (almost certainly!) still alive in the books!

oh man final ep will be so great if littlefinger gets to eyrie

I thought he was stabbed a bunch and his fate uncertain

It's hinted that he's now one of the monks at a monastery that Brienne visits in AFFC

NFW does Lady Emphysema show up til next season

it makes a lot of sense tho. they find her just a couple days later right? and to have the reveal out solves the logistical problem of her continued participation. plus a great thing to toss in at the end of the season, while the scene with beric and thoros is relatively fresh in the memory.

it makes no sense dramatically. she needs to be dead and gone and the red wedding already a legend among the smallfolk for the reveal to have any punch.

i think after seeing her throat cut square on camera, having her come back to life the next episode would be fairly dramatic. and remember, it's not like on the page where you can feature her without revealing who she is.

410 Mhysa - Joffrey challenges Tywin. Bran tells a ghost story. In Dragonstone, mercy comes from strange quarters. Dany waits to see if she is a conqueror or a liberator.

not giving us much

altho, someone upthread reminded that mhysa means mother so, maybe?

i can't actually think of anything that happens on dragonstone in the books after the leech ritual but before jon gets back to the night's watch and they send out ravens for help

i've said my piece. happy to lay wagers. my money's on arya leaving the hound to die and our coldhands as our supernatural surprise.

oh and based on the summary you posted, maybe Davos becomes Stannis' Hand

not sure if coldhands is happening in the show, since the scene where he showed up in the book already happened and the bran scene in the ep10 synopsis should be the one where he meets sam

they're probably just moving up his appearance to next season

with stoneheart too it's like a week after she's dead that beric resurrects her. if they do it next year the viewer will see it as having been a lonnnnng time since she died and who's that guy with the eyepatch again? In the books we don't see the resurrection, we come across her long afterwards, but a tv audience won't accept that. ("Wait catelyn came back to life? Or she's a zombie now? i missed that episode!") So for it to work as serialized television it pretty much needs to be in the closing episode of this season, literally a week after the red wedding.

probably still training the elk

rip tyewing

i could believe them dumping the coldhands character wholesale but that would be a shame. tho, assuming coldhands is benjen, that's going to be a great reveal for the tv crowd. "omg, it's benjen! who the fuck is that??"

I thought Davos was already Stannis' Hand on the show? Sometime last season, right before the Battle of the Blackwater?

I agree that unveiling UnCat this soon is dramatically less potent, but the logistics (keeping Michelle Fairley under wraps being the biggest issue) all seem to point toward her coming in in the next episode.

Coldhands they could do like they did the Reeds by excluding his stuff with Sam and only include him escorting Bran + The Reeds to Third Eye Blind Raven.

It's probably not Benjen though! Unless he's decomposed beyond recognition, Bran should've been able to recognize him.

Sam said some stuff in the last episode implying he knew where the door was, making me think they're cutting coldhands. maybe let jojen guide them with his ~powers~ or something, b/c honestly they need to give the reed kids something to do, they've been useless thus far on the show.

am kinda looking forward to seeing that scene TV-ized, with everything getting scary and dramatic and bran freaking out and then sam's fat face pops out of the well

not sure if coldhands is happening in the show, since the scene where he showed up in the book already happened and the bran scene in the ep10 synopsis should be the one where he meets sam

― ciderpress, Wednesday, June 5, 2013

I dunno if he's happening either but I'm holding out hope and Team Bran crossing the wall would be the time for it to happen.

with stoneheart too it's like a week after she's dead that beric resurrects her. if they do it next year the viewer will see it as having been a lonnnnng time since she died and who's that guy with the eyepatch again? In the books we don't see the resurrection, we come across her long afterwards, but a tv audience won't accept that. ("Wait catelyn came back to life? Or she's a zombie now? i missed that episode!") So for it to work as serialized television it pretty much needs to be in the closing episode of this season, literally a week after the red wedding.

― Clay, Wednesday, June 5, 2013

you do realize you're talking about a 6-year cliffhanger right?

I agree that unveiling UnCat this soon is dramatically less potent, but the logistics (keeping Michelle Fairley under wraps being the biggest issue) all seem to point toward her coming in in the next episode.

given that the actual screen time she'll eat up will amount to a couple of flashbacks i think a pro operation can manage this but hey, that's why they play the games. my money's on this team to hang on to its shock-and-awe opportunities. i'll wager 108 sun salutes.

The six-year cliffhanger was the experience book-readers had when reading the books and in no way reflects how the vast majority of people consuming the television show will be experiencing that material.

they could maybe do the scene where arya wargs into nymeria and drags cat up on the shore w.out actually resurrecting her