libertarians vs republicans

a room, or a seastead? i'd choose libertarian for seastead for the endless comedy of failures that would provide.

andrew mellon vs william lloyd garrison

i kinda secretly believe that stuck in a room w/ any republican for a week i can get them to disavow the republican party. that most of their political beliefs are rooted in ignorance + poor critical thinking skills. i think that libertarians are more fully attached to an ideology that is honestly kinda impervious to rational discourse.

anonymous vs james o'keefe

What flavor of Republican? New Englander? Texan? Northern Californian?

republicans much less likely to be idiots about the civil war, so them.

flavors don't exist anymore

republicans much less likely to be idiots about the civil war, so them.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:54 PM (18 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

just as likely to be idiots about the period afterwards tho

flavors still exist but aren't represented in public/media consciousness - they mostly matter in local elections + local politics

can I pick the Republican and the Libertarian?

prince rand paul vs president scott brown

Most irl republicans aren't as vocal and obnoxious as the libertarians I've met.

watching j-horror with johnny ramone for a week wouldn't be too bad.

autism vs psychosis

That's assuming you can pick which one! College libertarians are the most disgusting savages. xp

tbf a lot of that is because of the "college" part

Likewise, loudly watching college football or hockey playoffs with a republican is just fine, just as long as that republican doesn't root for fuckin' Ohio State, cuz then we'd have a problem.

my roommate is a libertarian so i've basically already made this choice. he's not annoying about it though, we just don't talk about politics

libertarians are a type of republican

like srsly they are part of the republican coalition

this is well known and easily verifiable

you know who's a libertarian, is Christina Hendricks

definitely think flavors exist and that would definitely affect my preference

like i would much rather be trapped in a room for a week with Brink Lindsey than someone who gets 100% of their lolnews from FOX

might as well go religious right v republicans

this is well known and easily verifiable

how does one go about verifying that kind of categorical assertion?

I will vote in this poll only when I am allowed to pick all the remaining traits of this mythical person. Perhaps a catatonic libertarian would have social charms not common to the breed.

otoh i'd pick a Huntsman daughter a paranoid Pault**d

over a

other fanous libertarians include:

Jessica Biehl
Brittany Murphy (RIP)
Blake Lively
Maggie Q
Heather Locklear
Donna Summer
Amanda Peet
Marsha Warfield
Selena Gomez

the 'all libertarians are closet GOP operatives' meme is an extremely stupid one

http://wac.0873.edgecastcdn.net/800873/blog/wp-content/uploads/201209_blog_kirby272.jpg

― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Tuesday, October 2, 2012 5:53 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how does one go about verifying that kind of categorical assertion?

― Mordy, Wednesday, October 3, 2012 2:03 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well since were talking abt politics we could just go ahead and see how they vote

http://wac.0873.edgecastcdn.net/800873/blog/wp-content/uploads/201209_blog_kirby272.jpg

― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Tuesday, October 2, 2012 5:53 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha xp

so that proves what? that during presidential elections libertarians have tended (tho not unanimously) to vote for the republican candidate?

routinely getting 60-70% of any self-described demographic is about as close a lock in a coalition as you can get

until (long-time republican funder) ross perot showed up

More libertarians smoke weed but Republicans who smoke weed tend to smoke better weed.

ill leave to mordy the heavy lifting of untangling votes republican from republican

Donna Summer
Amanda Peet
Marsha Warfield

could totally chill with these women

it's reductive. jewish voters, or black voters, predominately vote (in even higher than 70%) for democratic candidates, but they aren't just democrats under a secret new name. self-identified environmentalists might end up predominately voting for democratic candidates in presidential elections, but might vehemently argue that they aren't democrats.

sure but theyd be wrong

is "smoke weed" code for "fiscal policy" or code for "smoke weed"?

i mean, i'm not making perfect links to libertarians, and i'm open to an argument that they're moreso republicans than other ideological, interest, or demographic groups are the party that they predominately vote for. but that graph does not make that case.

i mean its kinda like saying im not a regular at this bar i just come here all the time

"More libertarians smoke weed but Republicans who smoke weed tend to smoke better weed."

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3i6Ev275ou4/TwDPaRc7KtI/AAAAAAAAENI/k5G03BbqGWM/s1600/wfb.jpg

well, no it's not. being a regular at a bar is synonymous w/ coming to it often. voting for a party is not synonymous w/ being a member of that party.

And truth be told, my dad is somewhere in that cloud nebula mix of asshole exburbanite libertarian/republican

And he roots for Michigan State, but we don't talk during that game.

(On a related note, said dad has major problems tipping appropriately, which has resulted in no few public arguments with multiple family members over the paltry amounts)

for instance, how about all the hard left voters who reconcile themselves to voting for the democrat every four years bc of 'lesser than two evils' argument but spend the next four years protesting that candidate? arguably this is the most common archetype to ILX and yet you'd claim that all those voters are actually democrats in denial?

I'm kind of making a NorCal joke there and yes by smoke weed, I mean ingest the psychotropic substances in cannabis

no – just ILXers

sure libertarianism is distinct from whatever melange of stuff plain 'ol conservatism is

but actually-existing libertarianism is a social and political phenomenon of the right, they know it, everybody knows it.

btw i was responding to the claim by some stupid blogger that ppl like conor friedersdorf, by criticizing obama, are doing so because they secretly want romney to win

Wow, Marsha Warfield is still alive? I thought she died years ago.

i mean its kinda like saying im not a regular at this bar i just come here all the time

What about if you're also a regular at another bar? The regulars at bar A who don't tray that much are Democrats, the people who are regulars but also regulars elsewhere are not quite the same.

for instance, how about all the hard left voters who reconcile themselves to voting for the democrat every four years bc of 'lesser than two evils' argument but spend the next four years protesting that candidate? arguably this is the most common archetype to ILX and yet you'd claim that all those voters are actually democrats in denial?

― Mordy, Wednesday, October 3, 2012 2:14 PM (26 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they are part of the democratic coalition, the nature of any coalition is all the different groups that make it up are unhappy, there is no group thats ever super psyched abt everything that their party leadership does, how you vote defines which coalition youre a member of, voting is the be all end all of electoral politics

i'm helping a buddy run a political campaign and am going to check and see if this expensive voter database even has an option for libertarian.

I voted for Paul in '88 but have been solidly Dem since. Still prefer neoliberal economics to wealth distribution from young to old via entitlement, but my hot button issue is climate change (the only current issue that will matter to our grandchildren).

I would much prefer spending time in a locked room with a libertarian, who are at least motivated by principle. The average grassroots Republican is motivated by faith, which I hope becomes synonymous with credulity and stupidity before the Collapse.

The average grassroots Republican is motivated by victimhood.

the libertarian would work with you to break out of the room so as to overcome the tyranny of being locked up against their will

i dunno man, libertarians seem pretty faith-y about their magical sea tax-paradise.

as far as ideology on the axis of society/individual that goes so far to define the progressive/conservative split in america libertarians are squarely right, they are in many ways the furthest right of any republican interest group, believing totally in the primacy of the individual and basically refusing to admit that humans are social creatures at all, they may trend left on some issues but they are fundamentally the most purely republican of all americans

roger sterling vs bert cooper

socked feet vs shoes

mind you liberalism is represented by pete campbell there so...

lagoon, I beg to differ. In a spectrum from liberal to authoritarian, libertarians are the most liberal, whereas most Democrats and Republicans are combinations of liberal and authoritarian, just iwth different priorities; Republicans tending to be socially authoritarian and economically liberal and Democrats tending to be economically more authoritarian but more socially liberal.

and peggy and joan and and and

xp

Persuade a libertarian of the issue of the tragedy of the commons, even via a property rights argument, and you might achieve concessions on environmental regulation.

Persuading a faith-based Republican on anything is a bit of a fool's errand. They've spend too much of their emotional energy on self-deception.

^spent, not spend.

you kinda switched out the axes there michael, but anyway to be completely frank here calling libertarians liberal on the authoritarian scale is quite ridiculous, sure they believe v strongly in their right to not be oppressed but v much believe in their right to oppress others and of course are completely against things like civil right legislation which is purely designed to protect others from oppression

of course the libertarian/authoritarian binary is their fav frame and imho is flawed

peggy sure - catholic, leftie boyfriend, would have to put her third behind campbell and kinsey for mad men representative lib. never seen anything from joan that would rule out her being a rockefeller republican.

yup, a lot of right-libertarians believe that some forms of domination and social hierarchy are natural and good, and it is "equality", speciously defined by the left and enforced by the state, that is evil. ie if we were truly free everyone would have to be ordered and obedient to their natural betters in the private sphere or die

joan liked "the apartment"

By the way, I think using the word "liberal" in this thread isn't terribly productive. In the non-American English speaking world it means laissez faire advocates. There's a reason the American Left has preferred the term "progressive".

not sure how i feel abt the mad menifacation of this v important thread but isnt kinsey the token shop librul, dont see how anyone else compares

but he's a psychotic, not a depressive!

Persuade a libertarian of the issue of the tragedy of the commons, even via a property rights argument, and you might achieve concessions on environmental regulation.

Nah, they'll spend all their time convincing you that the problem is that there's a commons at all; and if we'd just let someone own the oceans and the sky, it would be in their interest to keep their property clean.

i never understood neal peart's "bleeding heart libertarianism" does someone know what it's aboot?

there is a blog by that name that isn't bad

its when yr heart is bleeding and no one tries to save you so you die

nah, in a libertarian paradise mcdonalds would offer promotionals for helping people out. save a life, get a book of coupons, with two soft-serve sundae ones at the end. could be worse.

you could always buy another heart, trading very weakly against the bitcoin on today's open

libertarians are a type of republican
― lag∞n

Right, that's why there's a Libertarian Party that has their own convention and own primaries and are running their own candidates...

who no one ever votes for

i mean theres a green party too

http://www.conservapedia.com/Liberals_and_friendship

There's a Socialist candidate on the Ohio ballot. I bet he gets a lot of votes, since there are people that are socialists.

i wonder what the democrats think of the idea that the green party is really 'theirs' and they're really just trying to get democrats elected

its not the party thats theirs it the voters whos views align w/the green party who none the less vote democrat

is there a green party version of the koch bros?

or paul ryan or rand paul for that matter?

the koch brothers there is really just no explanation for people calling them libertarians, they are straight up big business republicans who give money to republicans in order to further their big business agenda

i mean one of them was a delegate at the republican convention this year!

well they're also the big money behind the cato institute and self identify as libertarians.

libertarianism is kind of like being a liberal without having to give a shit about anyone poorer than you

Speaking of the Kochs, their latest stunt is definitely enticing the stupids to vote:

Americans for Prosperity (AFP), the nonprofit financed by David Koch and other wealthy Republican businessmen, has spent some $31 million on anti-Obama ads since April. The group recently opened 98 Get-Out-the-Vote offices, hired some 200 field staffers and has been distributing its state-of-the-art voter-targeting technology on Samsung tablet computers to its volunteers. Now AFP is hoping to win hearts and minds with gifts of free gas.

AFP is hosting events at gas stations across the country to provide gasoline to motorists for the price of $1.84 per gallon. The group is paying for up to fifteen gallons for 100–150 drivers at each station, telling them that the $1.84 price symbolizes the price per a gallon before Obama took office in 2009.

A CBS news affiliate in Iowa reports that at least one driver, Louis Lumpkin, said that the free gas would make a difference on his vote for president.

AFP is spending about $4,000 giving away gas at every stop, and has been to stations throughout Nevada, Iowa and Michigan. Along the way, they’re earning free, largely uncritical airtime for their message and maybe some votes in swing states.

the koch brothers are libertarian in the sense that they dont think anyone should be able to stop their company from poisoning the air and water

OK so here are the #s from the database

     678   LIB
    1028   PF 
    2975   AI 
    3664   NPP
    3745   GRN
   13543   REP
   37221   NP 
  128064   DEM

Unfortunately there isn't a key to what these are, but I'm assuming LIB = libertarian and AI = sentient robots, so suck it libertarians you are outnumbered by robots!

they are libertarian in that they prob don't care about jesus

Koch also said he now considers himself a Republican first and foremost – rather than a Libertarian or a non-partisan supporter of free enterprise – despite a background in Libertarian politics and some views that are out of step with the GOP orthodoxy.

“The Libertarian Party is a great concept. I love the ideals, but it got too far off the deep end, and so I dropped out,” Koch said. “I think the Republican Party has a great chance of being successful and that’s why I support it,” he said, adding “but I believe in the libertarian principles.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80483.html

There's no Green Party or left-leaning Koch Bros(aside from a few exceptions) b/c we progressive types tend to see their views as obvious and natural and not needing to be actively promoted or reinforced. Also that only accurate information and facts need to be presented to be people, and every GOP vote is out of duping or being lied to

Or the idea that just being correct will automatically and immediately convince and persuade others, that kinda thing.

remember when the libertarians tried to impeach clinton?

koch dudes stand to keep/make tons of ca$h promoting their BS. progressives get ... a clean planet shared by everyone! "pick up after yourselves" v. "i want more billions of dollars". doesn't hurt to have the personality of an evil billionaire, either.

AI is probably the American Independent Party.

is there a green party version of the koch bros?

Not that I'm aware of, but there's George Soros, who probably isn't too antipathetic to the Greens.

Yeah, Soros is probably the closest. Like the libertarian billionaires, he also has a slightly wacky ideology with a vanity NGO to back it up.

progressives are like characters from a family sitcom. "hey gang, let's pitch in and get the community center running again!" it's some higher mind shit that exists almost in fantasy land. republicans/libertarians seem more in tune with animal lust: power, money, control, domination, etc. way more corruptable, so people like koch will get more mileage out of their billions than someone like soros ever would.

'progressive' and 'liberal' both basically mean nothing beyond 'this person falls somewhere in the left-wing of american politics'

nonsense! it means i am in favor of progress, bring me more progress, i demand it

i mean its kinda like saying im not a regular at this bar i just come here all the time once every four years.

yeah 'progressive' as a term is pretty nebulous in american politics - you have genuine the nation type progressives and you have pretty much standard liberals like obama and clinton that prefer to be called progressives cuz gingrich, atwater, et al did such an effective job rebranding 'liberal'.

i mean its kinda like saying im not a regular at this bar i just come to this bar thats only open once every four years all the time once every four years.

don't forget he tiny slice of the electorate that's really serious about TR/lafollette politics.

*polishes waistcoat buttons*

except bar is actually open every two years and progressives end up like brat pack at end of st elmo's fire wondering what happened to this place while eric cantor is inside doing body shots

Bar's open all the time - the Koch Brothers don't wake from their slumber on Nov 6th of ever year that's divisible by 4, for example.

sry no maths in the bar gonna have to ask u to leave

"maths"

libertarianism liberalism is kind of like being a liberal without having to give a shit about anyone poorer than you

left-wing people talking shit about 'liberalism' is the politics equivalent of people on ilm talking about 'white people'

"maths"

― gesange der yuengling (crüt), Wednesday, October 3, 2012 4:06 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wot is there a problem m8

when you watch Judge Napolitano types they kind of revel in being atomized individuals. They have even less interest in being a coherent band fighting for principles than Democrats do. Why should you fight for principles when you don't believe in a government willing to use its own moral authority or police power to enforce them?

since when is alfred 'left-wing' people?

since when have you thought I was anything else?

i have never heard alfred offer a heterodox opinion, tho i have on occasion heard him offer that he holds them

ILX: land of the homodoxy.

okay lol

lol

'heterodox' is one of those words that sounds more fun than it actually is

like titmouse

or anal retentive. i used to think liberals and progressives were much more likely to be self-critical, skeptical of their side, heterodox and less likely to be 'fuck the other team!' sheeple than conservatives. then came facebook.

i know we've done alfred's TRU political ideology b4 but honestly i can't remember the conclusion of that debacle and my day2day impression is that it's MOR moderate that digs officials w/ charisma. obv left enough to hang on ilx (i always wish we could rustle up a few more legit conservatives for maximum clusterfuck enjoyment), but not what i'd consider ##srs## left-wingism.

on the other hand "satrap" is fun the whole lib family can enjoy

it's MOR moderate that digs officials w/ charisma

lol you are confusing me with Andrew Sullivan.

yeah, tbh i kinda think of you as ilx's personal andrew sullivan

aw

that is the sweetest, most endearing insult I've ever read

I don't mind being submitted for analysis but I'm about as immune to charisma in politicians as ILM is to Libertines records. I mean, I never voted for Obama, and I've never fucked a bear, with or without an online ad.

are we playing two truths and a lie

hahahaha

and you would be the lie?

xpost

where's don weiner? He tried to pass for a conservative

is whiney ilx dick morris?

does that make deej Breitbart?

weiner was actual libertarian! i liked him though i think i pissed him off once when i compared libertarians to scientologists.

dom as tucker carlson, supposedly still alive out there on the web but really who knows. gabbneb as mickey kaus too obv but true.

i used to think liberals and progressives were much more likely to be self-critical, skeptical of their side, heterodox and less likely to be 'fuck the other team!' sheeple than conservatives. then came facebook.

― balls

otm

how do you prove someone is a libertarian? There's always a breaking point with those self-professed libertarian types.

lex as anne coulter too obv but true also (iirc he'd welcome the comparison)

if you want to privatize roads...you might be a libertarian

roger adultery as the nuge?

before Facebook liberals did what -- read Lewis Lapham?

hi thread, not all gays have daddy issues, andrew sullivan is not one of them. that is all.

a daddy, a gay, a thread?

left-wing people talking shit about 'liberalism' is the politics equivalent of people on ilm talking about 'white people'

― iatee, Wednesday, 3 October 2012

is this disappearing POC on ILX while defusing green, socialist, commie, or anarchist critiques as their being liberals really?

in any case, OP needs a vs iatee option

http://www.theonion.com/articles/louis-lapham-went-way-over-the-line-this-time,10926/

"This asshole always seems to pick just the right Edith Wharton quote to really make my blood boil."

sorry, he is not one of the gays who do not have daddy issues. *checks watch* time for me to go xp

who is zvookster

where's that thread where ppl admit the things they are really right wing (or republican) about?

It was really fascist, I think?

yeah, found it: things you're secretly kinda fascisty about

we should do one for republican

i wonder who the most right-wing ilxor is and sometimes i wonder if it's me

Yeah, I think it was Roger Adultery who was that type, tho there always seems to one or two in the past who float around for a few months before getting banned or floating away

well you went ham on Jonah boy a couple years ago

xpost

let's be honest - it's not super hard to be the most right-wing ilxor (i mean that participates on politics threads i'm sure we have some random ILMers who believe all kinds of shit) - we did one of those political graph threads a bit ago and posters only fell on 1/4th of the graph space.

roger a. had some serious probing questions about the hypocrisy of the media covering black-on-white crime iirc and made some very pointed statements.

Does Dandy Don Weiner still post? He struck me as at least run of the mill GOP if not a bit more right wing than that.

every so often i think about making a republican sockpuppet (i guess my admitting it here is also a concession that i'll never really do it) and writing really sincere, complicated posts defending popular right wing talking points

some ppl have theorized that this has already happened etc

left-orthodox team players are about as close to republicanism as ilx gets imo, at least in spirit.

what is a 'left-orthodox team player'?

what is a 'left-orthodox team player'?
--(The Other) J.D. (J.D.)

Sandy Koufax

big lol

out of the park

boom

OMG a basebsall joke I actually get!!!!!

every so often i think about making a republican sockpuppet (i guess my admitting it here is also a concession that i'll never really do it) and writing really sincere, complicated posts defending popular right wing talking points

― Mordy, Wednesday, October 3, 2012 5:06 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

some ppl have theorized that this has already happened etc

― Mordy, Wednesday, October 3, 2012 5:07 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

was gonna say! ;)

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

i'd like libertarians more if they were fictional -- like, if murray rothbard were a character in a novel, he'd totally be the most bizarre and fascinating character.

I've met a handful of both and I have to say I get on a lot better with Libertarians, despite it arguably being a stupider political philosophy. Most of the former I've met tend to be younger fun-loving people whose main attraction to the ideology seems to be wanting the Govt to stop interfering with their shit. Most of the latter tend to be older, angrier and axe-grindier.

nb I'm not American, nor have I ever lived there.

I've met a handful of both and I have to say I get on a lot better with Libertarians, despite it arguably being a stupider political philosophy. Most of the former I've met tend to be younger fun-loving people whose main attraction to the ideology seems to be wanting the Govt to stop interfering with their shit. Most of the latter tend to be older, angrier and axe-grindier.

^^^^ i am American, and this is my own experience.

major exception being libertarians who are really into Ayn Rand, who i lump into the same boat as Scientologists.

we've got beautiful mountains and rivers, chap

most republicans i meet are not nearly as obnoxiously "opinions 4 u" as libertarians (nor as much as most dems tbh but then again i live in l.a., repubs keep their head low for the most part.)

let us all enjoy some freesponsibility... in space!

libertarian space colony's president is apparently Dave Chappelle in a mustache

overview here

wtf Lo-Pan from Big Trouble in Little China shows up 20 mins in

showing up 20 mins in is p much james hong's whole career

also butler in chinatown, "i just do eyes!" in blade runner, dramatically revealed cybersurgeon in tank girl, maitre d when jerry/george/elaine go to the chinese restaurant, etc

they should remake the good earth with james hong as everyone

lol

James Hong is at the Wizard World comiccon going on about a half-mile from me right now. I want to go for the sole reason of getting a photo with him.

choosing b/w these two is the politics equivalent of choosing b/w drowning in a tubful of diarrhea vs. drowning in a tubful of vomit amirite?!?

waving hello

This is a great read: https://www.texasobserver.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-freest-little-city-in-texas/amp/

schaudenfreude

If Von Ormy is a libertarian experiment with democracy, it’s one that hasn’t turned out as expected.

I would say it turned out exactly as one would expect

I love the repetition of this phrase in the article:
“We were blessed with this unique opportunity to experiment with democracy”

Sounds great on paper, but it just doesn't work in reality.

this is a good thread/era of ilx politics threads imo

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/08/date-nate-wont

You have to visit the site in the post. You HAVE to.

Looks like he took down the original site and put up something to try to capitalize on the new traffic he was getting.

I feel like these libertarian guys are somewhat quieter than they were. Rebranding as 'classical liberals', or sucked up by the alt-right and jumped on the conservative identity politics train where all the action is?

reason magazine still exists

I saw the thread title and hoped it was proposing a caged death match.

caged death matches are a very libertarian type of entertainment

All the Ron Paul libertarians are Republicans again

yeah that sounds right. trump kind of gave em enough to jump on--gestures toward "isolationism," the "deconstruction of the administrative state" via vast incompetence, etc

Changing my vote