rolling middle east 2013 thread

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i was thinking about maybe starting a rolling middle east 2013 thread in january and moving all my syria/israel/gaza/west bank/egypt/iran/iraq/etc chat over there and i was wondering what ppl on this thread think. i know hurting has been asking for a new thread to talk about israel and i think having a more catchall rolling thread could help lead to more coherent discussion on the region as opposed to balkanized conversation over a dozen or so threads... idk, what do people think?

http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/maps/me2003.jpg

Mordy, Tuesday, 1 January 2013 18:42 (thirteen years ago)

i keep trying to convince myself to buy a haaretz digital subscription but a) it's expensive and b) haaretz makes me so angry sometimes that i really don't want to give them money. anyway, in addition to haaretz, for middle east news i'm reading a bunch of al-jazeera these days, a little economist (doesn't get updated often enough), listening to the BBC, reading NYT and sub'ing to elder of ziyon's blog which is explicitly pro-israel but also a really good source of news since the author reads and summarizes a lot of arabic + hebrew press that doesn't always make it to english.

Mordy, Tuesday, 1 January 2013 18:45 (thirteen years ago)

regarding syria

Lakhdar Brahimi, the joint U.N.-Arab League envoy, gave a dire warning Sunday on the rapidly deteriorating situation in Syria.
"If nearly 50,000 people have been killed in about two years, do not expect just 25,000 people to die next year -- maybe 100,000 will die," he told reporters in Cairo.
"The pace is increasing," he said.

Mordy, Tuesday, 1 January 2013 18:46 (thirteen years ago)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-txz4VCoikbU/UKpkcjK2PHI/AAAAAAAAGKw/esADD4Qj-QU/s320/Tayyip+Erdogan.jpg

NAME recep tayyip erdogan
TITLE turkish pm
INTERESTS supressing restive minorities, european integration, containing syria, sinister sub rosa manipulations
SPECIAL POWERS n/a
ZIONIST RATING b-

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Tuesday, 1 January 2013 18:51 (thirteen years ago)

Good luck with Iran America and whoever wants to join in, you'll need it.

not_goodwin, Tuesday, 1 January 2013 20:45 (thirteen years ago)

i think after assad falls (i assume sometime early this year) we'll see iran come down shortly after. iranian economy is in such a huge mess already.

Mordy, Tuesday, 1 January 2013 20:48 (thirteen years ago)

but Iran's history of failed revolutions which already caused an endless amount of deaths may prevent such a scenario.

nostormo, Tuesday, 1 January 2013 20:55 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/02/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8AJ1FK20130102

At least 30 civilians were killed on Wednesday when Syrian warplanes bombed a petrol station in a rebellious suburb on the eastern edge of Damascus, two opposition campaigners on the scene said.

Mordy, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 15:03 (thirteen years ago)

Also, rebels shut down the airport in Aleppo, and the UN human rights commissioner says that the death toll is up to 60,000. Obviously this is going to get much worse before it gets better. Something I missed over the holidays was that third party observers are denying rebel reports that chemical weapons have been used. Something else we haven't really discussed are the clandestine Israel meeting with Jordan over intervention to secure the chemical weapon storehouses. (I think the more major concern for Turkey, Israel, Jordan, etc is not Assad firing chemical weapons into their countries, but rather after Assad falls those weapons falling into rebel hands. Some of those rebels are Al-Qaeda members.)

Mordy, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 15:26 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/02/saudi_religious_leader_calls_for_gang_rape_of_syrian_women/

A prominent Saudi cleric has issued a fatwa (a religious ordinance) that calls for the gang rape of Syrian women. Expressing frustration that the “warriors of Islam” fighting in Syria may be getting weary for the lack of sexual pleasure, the religious leader issued a decree that promotes hours-long “intercourse marriages.”

The cleric, Muhammed al-Arifi, who is a leading jihadist religious figure, made it clear that his edict called for the gang rape of Syrian women and girls. He specified that the “intercourse marriages” last only a few hours “in order to give each fighter a turn.” As to who is an eligible bride, the cleric approves any girls or women over the age of 14 who are widowed or divorced. Yes, you read that right. Any girls over the age of 14.

Jesus fuck.

Mordy, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 22:59 (thirteen years ago)

"ps i'm wanking as i issue this"

goole, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 23:03 (thirteen years ago)

Fwiw, it is being written up as legitimising prostitution elsewhere. Difficult to tell without quotes.

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Wednesday, 2 January 2013 23:31 (thirteen years ago)

Temporary marriage has long been a thing in Islam. This guy is just taking it to its batshit conclusion.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Wednesday, 2 January 2013 23:37 (thirteen years ago)

There was an article in my danish newspaper about an egyptian bellydancer, who filed for divorce against one of the leaders of the muslim brotherhood, as she'd found out he was already married. The implication, of course, was that he'd paid her for a 'temporary marriage'. She later admitted it was fabrication, but still he's career went down the drain, and she's apparantly seen as somewhat a hero. He was apparantly a scumbag anyway.

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:00 (thirteen years ago)

Fwiw, it is being written up as legitimising prostitution elsewhere. Difficult to tell without quotes.

There are so many things wrong with this interpretation but I'll start with the obvious which is that the fatwa is concerning fourteen year olds (and older).

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:04 (thirteen years ago)

Saudis can marry at 14. It's perfectly possible Salon's interpretation is correct but to not present it as an interpretation seems a little misleading.

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:08 (thirteen years ago)

the arabic ilx WTM thread must be fun

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:08 (thirteen years ago)

Even if prostitution is the intended meaning of the fatwa, I doubt Syrian women are able to participate with full agency in those sexual transactions.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:14 (thirteen years ago)

are the degenerates benefitting from this edict the friends of liberal democracy or the assad crowd or both

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:18 (thirteen years ago)

The fatwa is intended for the rebels, not for Assad.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:19 (thirteen years ago)

Probably not. On the other hand, he probably thinks Syrian women would be throwing themselves at the liberators if they weren't so darned modest. He suggested that women who agreed to marry them would be blessed in the afterlife so some degree of agency seems to be implied. He's clearly bonkers but idk if the story really required Salon's embellishment unless they are fairly certain what was intended. Xxp

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:19 (thirteen years ago)

as a patron of progressive liberal democracy i encourage all syrians to do what is necessary in the cause of progressive values, inshallah

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Thursday, 3 January 2013 00:23 (thirteen years ago)

naftali bennett's habayit hayehudi party pushes likkud to the right on annexing the west bank (tho not bibi yet), and wapo house op-ed says the settlements complicate peace but are being over-exaggerated as a barrier to it.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 03:46 (thirteen years ago)

Iranian authorities have advised the one and a half million people who live in Isfahan to leave the city if they can because pollution has now reached emergency levels. The same thing happened in the capital Tehran earlier this week. Kasra Naji works for the BBC's Persian TV service in London.

There's some speculation that it may be a nuclear leak incident.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 04:46 (thirteen years ago)

the salon/alternet "gang rape" story is a weird hoax

http://www.alternet.org/world/exhibit-how-easily-islamophobic-meme-can-spread-wildfire-across-internet

max, Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:05 (thirteen years ago)

Lol at "inadvertantly picked it up from" the site they linked to in the original fucking article.

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:08 (thirteen years ago)

it's nice that alternet is running a breakdown of how the 'hoax' happened, but would be nicer if they had verified the story before running it - new media i guess :/

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:37 (thirteen years ago)

But one would imagine that if a similar story emerged about a Christian cleric or a Rabbi, someone, somewhere would have paused before posting it. Sadly, in the case of stories about Muslim clerics or Islamists the same red flags don't seem to apply.

Also this is so disingenuous since Alternet was surely the most major propagator of this story into reputable media outlets.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:38 (thirteen years ago)

Salon doesn't appear to have retracted it yet.

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:41 (thirteen years ago)

Salon was just running it from Alternet tho, unedited. Really Alternet needs to write a serious mea culpa, or if they're going to talk about Islamophobia do so in the context of their own writers and editors.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:42 (thirteen years ago)

Absolutely right.

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:42 (thirteen years ago)

My experience with Alternet and Salon are that they are fairly skeptical left-wing media outlets so I assumed that if they were running the story they probably had good sources for it. I tried to follow up with the original sources (and found I guess the original youtube video in Arabic w/ translations of the story) but couldn't get anything from a different 'reputable' source. But I figured there's no way Alternet would run the story without being sure of it.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 13:49 (thirteen years ago)

Looks like Al-Jazeera is buying Current TV!

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 14:39 (thirteen years ago)

Brotherhood official urges Egypt's Jews to return

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:20 (thirteen years ago)

Jews ordered back to Egypt for pyramid duty.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:22 (thirteen years ago)

Egyptians slamming MB leader for offering to allow Jews to return to Egypt

In response, Hafez Abu Saada, head of the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights, called Erian's remarks "catastrophic" because it would allow Egyptian Jews to sue for the properties that were stolen from them when they were forced out of Egypt.

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:31 (thirteen years ago)

And Morsi's backing away from Erian's "personal opinions".

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:34 (thirteen years ago)

Were they forced or did they, like most Sephardim, sell out and leave?

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:35 (thirteen years ago)

Btw, Mordy, did you read that article (where?) about Israel's medical marijuana lab?

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:36 (thirteen years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Egyptian_Jews_(1956)

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:36 (thirteen years ago)

lol yes, I did. I posted it to Rolling Cannabis Politics Thread

Mordy, Thursday, 3 January 2013 22:37 (thirteen years ago)

one of the complications in israeli politics is that left-right axis most often refers to a stance on the peace process and not to socialism/capitalism*. for example, the lone kibbutz member of the new knesset is likely to be zvulun kalfa, a member of naftali bennett's right-wing nationalist religious habayit hayehudi party:

"There are many members of neighboring kibbutzim who say they'll vote for Habayit Hayehudi this time, some of them due to our personal acquaintance, and others because they share the same views on settlement issues," he says.

*although Labour famously was very involved in the peace process. as another example tho how the two don't necessarily align - labour has moved sharply away from the peace process during this election and focused exclusively on social justice issues. on a related note, under Bibi the number of Palestinians from the West Bank working in Israel has doubled and he partially campaigned last election on economic, though not nationalist, justice for the West Bank.

Mordy, Friday, 4 January 2013 02:00 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-racism-of-leftist-nationalism.premium-1.492109

moullet, Sunday, 6 January 2013 15:44 (thirteen years ago)

at least gideon levy is making it explicit - he's ready to sell out the jewish state to combat the right.

Mordy, Sunday, 6 January 2013 16:29 (thirteen years ago)

So it looks like Obama's nominating Hagel for Defense. I wonder if there's any element of payback there for Netanyahu's dalliance with Romney during the campaign.

o. nate, Monday, 7 January 2013 03:17 (thirteen years ago)

It's a weird thing. I assume Obama can get Hagel - between Republicans burning their 'veto' on Rice and Hagel being an R I think he can push it through. But why push through a Republican that the Republicans don't like? It's not like his opinions are unique and he'll be taking policy from Obama anyway. Plus there are ppl on the left (like Barney Frank) who don't like him either. I can't figure out what Obama stands to gain from either a) pushing Hagel through or b) pushing Hagel hard and then ultimately backing down and picking someone else. Both seem like high risk low reward moves.

Mordy, Monday, 7 January 2013 04:59 (thirteen years ago)

A friend suggested that he wants to force Republicans to oppose a Republican - maybe start to delineate a 'centrist republican' position that he can try to corral the party into. Seems too multidimensional chess to me. Maybe he just likes the guy.

Mordy, Monday, 7 January 2013 05:01 (thirteen years ago)

There's always that last possibility. I guess they were friendly when Obama was in the Senate.

o. nate, Monday, 7 January 2013 14:50 (thirteen years ago)

Hagel was/is known as a foreign policy realist and a no-nonsense guy. This bolsters Obama on the FP front, shows he's bi-partisan, and puts the Senate Republicans in a bind.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Monday, 7 January 2013 15:12 (thirteen years ago)

Senate Republicans may not be in a bind if some of the Senate Dems who don't like him for various reasons also oppose him (but the Senate Dems may choose when it comes time to vote, to say that Hagel regrets past statements, and then vote for him )

curmudgeon, Monday, 7 January 2013 15:17 (thirteen years ago)

Obama hardly needs to be bolstered on the FP front!

Mordy, Monday, 7 January 2013 15:25 (thirteen years ago)

jeff goldberg (who i find i have less + less time for every day) writes:

Discussions inside [AIPAC] -- and what the group is hearing from its friends on the Hill, and in the Administration -- is that the President very much wants Hagel at Defense, and would be very upset if a group whose agenda he has more-or-less supported (a strong no to containment of Iran, maintaining Israel's qualitative military edge, siding with Israel at the United nations) tries to deny him the defense secretary he wants, and who is a personal friend.

Mordy, Monday, 7 January 2013 15:56 (thirteen years ago)

if the cw that obama trusts next to nobody in his life is true, that would explain quite a lot of it.

what hagel and brennan as picks 'say' to the rest of the world is important too

goole, Monday, 7 January 2013 17:43 (thirteen years ago)

That's the weirdest part to me. I don't think Obama needs to rush out and bomb, bomb Iran but he should definitely be signaling aggression and willingness to intervene militarily. Hagel undermines that to some extent.

Mordy, Monday, 7 January 2013 17:51 (thirteen years ago)

yeah but doesn't brennan indicate that while we may not start any new wars, we sure will kill anyone anywhere if we want to i.e what everyone already knows?

goole, Monday, 7 January 2013 17:53 (thirteen years ago)

he should definitely be signaling aggression and willingness to intervene militarily.

why do this if nobody believes it.

goole, Monday, 7 January 2013 17:54 (thirteen years ago)

The way you get ppl to believe it is by signaling it.

Mordy, Monday, 7 January 2013 17:55 (thirteen years ago)

yeah idk man

goole, Monday, 7 January 2013 17:56 (thirteen years ago)

it's a meme now: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/120807/the-new-one-state-solution

Mordy, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 01:25 (thirteen years ago)

Essam el-Erian, a top advisor to Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi, has resigned from his position, Egyptian media reported Sunday. "Although the report said that el-Arian had willingly made the decision because he was “occupied with other work,” analysts said that there was no doubt that he was pressure to quit – after inviting back to Egypt the descendants of Jews who were thrown out of the country, or who fled due to anti-Semitic violence."

Mordy, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 15:11 (thirteen years ago)

Some 5,000 Hezbollah fighters crossed from Lebanon into Syria last month to fight on the side of Bashar al-Assad’s forces the Al Watan newspaper reported on Monday. According to the paper, nearly 300 of those fighters have been killed in the last several days.

Mordy, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 15:13 (thirteen years ago)

From that Tablemag article:

...concluded that the Jews, as the indigenous people of the biblical land of Israel, have clear historical rights there...

This argument has always amused me since it kinda fails to take the Canaanites into account

Canaille help you (Michael White), Tuesday, 8 January 2013 15:39 (thirteen years ago)

The way you get ppl to believe it is by signaling it.

Empty threats are especially pernicious

Canaille help you (Michael White), Tuesday, 8 January 2013 15:39 (thirteen years ago)

That's silly. It's not self-evidently empty.

Mordy, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 15:50 (thirteen years ago)

I don't think Obama needs to really signal any more than he already has. He has clearly stated that he does not believe in Iranian nuclear containment and will intervene before Iran gets nuclear weapons. He has also facilitated a huge military buildup in the gulf and the strait of hormuz. So I don't see it as an empty threat - but I think picking Hagel might suggest that it's an empty threat.

Mordy, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 15:52 (thirteen years ago)

The biblical story of the biblical exodus & conquest of the Canaanites is pretty suspect, as well. The archaeological evidence, as I understand it, is that with the invasion of the Sea Peoples, coastal Caananites were displaced to agriculturally poor central highlands, where there were a few hundred hilltop villages of Habiru, herders & raiders that had practiced a kosher diet excluding pork for centuries. Myths were adapted from Canaanite/Ugarit predecessors, a merged pantheon of El, Yahweh, Asherah, and Ba'al emerged, which was whittled down during temple/dynastic disputes from 1100-600 BCE, and we're left with a fragmentary record of the polemic.

Genetic markers generally show that while there is evidence of Y-chromosome/patrilineal continuity of Ashkenazim, there's no evidence of a geneic purity/isolation in matrilineal mitochondrial DNA or the rest of the genome - ie, through the centuries Jewish men married and converted enough shiksas that there's no "genetically" Jewish people aside from the patrilineal Y chromosome. And the population of Jewish Y-chromosomes are indistinguishable from those of Palestinian Arabs. So, in a sense, the population of biblical Israel has remained in Palestine for thousands of years, its only in the last century they've been displaced off their land by miscegenated populations that are fractionally similar to the original biblical population.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 8 January 2013 17:10 (thirteen years ago)

lol sea peoples are everywhere these days

goole, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 17:40 (thirteen years ago)

there are no valid historical claims to land imo

Welcome to my world of proses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 8 January 2013 17:49 (thirteen years ago)

^^^

mookieproof, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 18:00 (thirteen years ago)

It's odd that a ppl w/matrilineal self-identity has more genetic coherence on the patrilineal side...

Also, wasn't Canaan a pretty broad area comprised of quite a few ethnic, linguistic and religious groups, inlcuding the Israelites, the Moabites, etc...? Canaan and Phonecia were interchangeable for some ancients, iIrc,

Canaille help you (Michael White), Tuesday, 8 January 2013 18:40 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/world/middleeast/chemical-weapons-showdown-with-syria-led-to-rare-accord.html

WASHINGTON — In the last days of November, Israel’s top military commanders called the Pentagon to discuss troubling intelligence that was showing up on satellite imagery: Syrian troops appeared to be mixing chemicals at two storage sites, probably the deadly nerve gas sarin, and filling dozens of 500-pounds bombs that could be loaded on airplanes... What followed next, officials said, was a remarkable show of international cooperation over a civil war in which the United States, Arab states, Russia and China have almost never agreed on a common course of action.

Mordy, Tuesday, 8 January 2013 19:06 (thirteen years ago)

Canaan is the geographical area, Canaanites usually referring to the pre-Israelite city-states subject to Egypt. Phoenicians were the richer coastal city states, invaded in the 13th century BCE by Sea Peoples but retaining Canaanite language and culture. "Canaan" is analogous to the geographical extent of England, with its several regional kingdoms, and "Phoenecia" with England's eastern extent controlled by 9th century Danish/Viking invaders, and known by the the 11th century as the Danelaw.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 8 January 2013 19:17 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.theonion.com/articles/israel-vows-to-use-veto-power-if-chuck-hagel-confi,30824/

Mordy, Wednesday, 9 January 2013 14:13 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/technology/online-banking-attacks-were-work-of-iran-us-officials-say.html

The skill required to carry out attacks on this scale has convinced United States government officials and security researchers that they are the work of Iran, most likely in retaliation for economic sanctions and online attacks by the United States.

“There is no doubt within the U.S. government that Iran is behind these attacks,” said James A. Lewis, a former official in the State and Commerce Departments and a computer security expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

Mr. Lewis said the amount of traffic flooding American banking sites was “multiple times” the amount that Russia directed at Estonia in a monthlong online assault in 2007 that nearly crippled the Baltic nation.

Mordy, Wednesday, 9 January 2013 14:14 (thirteen years ago)

So here it is, the early days of the Cyber Wars.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Wednesday, 9 January 2013 15:39 (thirteen years ago)

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama's pick for defense secretary, Chuck Hagel, is meeting with senior Pentagon staff to try to set the record straight about his stand on Iran, saying he backs strong international sanctions against Tehran and believes all options, including military action, should be on the table, defense officials said Wednesday.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 13:47 (thirteen years ago)

Following a meeting with Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi, Abbas said that he had appealed to the UN to intercede on behalf of Palestinian refugees living in Syria and demand that Israel allow them to enter the West Bank and Gaza.

Abbas said Ban was told Israel “agreed to the return of those refugees to Gaza and the West Bank, but on condition that each refugee ... sign a statement that he doesn’t have the right of return (to Israel).”

“So we rejected that and said it’s better they die in Syria than give up their right of return,” Abbas told the group.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:11 (thirteen years ago)

Just like the Palestinians to outdo the Israelis in callous political idiocy. You have to wonder if the Israelis were even serious about letting the refugees in, knowing that the PA would gladly rush to trip over themselves to make themselves look utterly unserious.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:34 (thirteen years ago)

You know it's okay to condemn Abbas without explaining how terrible the Israelis also are. It was a generous offer on their part imo, especially since everyone claims 'right of return' is just a bargaining chip that will never actually happen. You might get a bad reputation for wanting to nuke Gaza, but false equivalencies are intellectual cowardice.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:37 (thirteen years ago)

Mordy, I am not always pleased with Israeli policy and I often think it callous and wrong-headed. I imagine the Israelis would have been forced to honor their offer if Abbas had gone along with the ceding of the right to return but I also imagine they knew he would never allow that and would prefer to see his people dead than politically disenfranchised. It's akin to perfering your daughter dead than seeing her honor besmirched. Fat load of good her honor is going to do for a dead girl.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:44 (thirteen years ago)

It's an interesting (tho unfavorable) theory that Israel knew that Abbas would never allow the Syrian Palestinian refuges to enter the West Bank, but ultimately unsubstantiated conjecture that, in my eyes, tries to draw an equivalency between Abbas allowing refugees to suffer and die and Israel making a disingenuous offer. Until there is evidence otherwise, why not take them at their word?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:47 (thirteen years ago)

prefering, ffs

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:48 (thirteen years ago)

Just like the Palestinians to outdo the Israelis in callous political idiocy.

My comparison wasn't to (my admittedly cynical take on) the offer but to recent developments in East Jerusalem planning, etc...

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:50 (thirteen years ago)

I'd save that particular outrage for when Israel almost certainty annexes area C in the next few years.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:52 (thirteen years ago)

Abbas' actions are consistent with what political leaders in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Gaza have been doing to Palestinian refugees for years -- denying them quality of life, safety, and real political representation to exploit their existence as a cudgel to use against the state of Israel.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:59 (thirteen years ago)

Yeah, that area C annexation and the popularity of Bennett make me think the Palestinans may have mis-managed their diplomacy to the worst point possible save for maybe being forcibly resettled in Antarctica or something.

as a cudgel to use against the state of Israel.

Not to mention a distraction to their own populations from more immediate local problems.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:04 (thirteen years ago)

The ouster of Egypt’s interior minister earlier this week was due to his opposition to a secret meeting between an adviser to President Mohammed Morsi and a high-ranking commander in Iran’s Revolutionary Guard, the Egyptian daily Al-Masry Al-Youm reported Wednesday.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:26 (thirteen years ago)

That is sinister as heck. What the hell do a Sunni Arab politician and a Persian Shia military officer have in common that must be said in secret?

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:29 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/tehran-wants-get-closer-cairo-says-iran-foreign-minister

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:32 (thirteen years ago)

been in Morocco for a few weeks meeting with people about "social issues" & it's been eye-opening...everyone reminds me that Morocco was the First Nation to acknowledge the independence of the USA as if that should matter today

also it's interesting to see Moroccan license plates that feature a map of the nation including the Western Sahara. Apparently locals believe that a GOP presidency might have helped Morocco finally win that battle with the UN

Euler, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:41 (thirteen years ago)

Hundreds of Egyptians demonstrated on Wednesday Jan. 2 in Safenex Square in Cairo to commemorate the 521st anniversary of the fall of Granada.

The demonstration was called by The Free Movement (Harakat Ahrar).

The protesters organized a human chain around the square and held signs that said: "Obligatory return","We have not forgotten Al Andalus" and "Of course we will return" ...

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:36 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20986428

To many, this is a historic moment, the closest Saudi women have ever come to public participation in politics. But to critics of the Saudi system, appointing women to the Shura Council is a largely symbolic measure.

The council can advise the king and question ministers, but it has no power to make or veto legislation and its members are appointed by the king.

Yet even this move will have entailed lengthy debate between the Royal Court and the "ulama", the country's ultra-conservative clergy, who once opposed female education and even television.

To allay their fears, special gates are being incorporated into the Shura Council building so that women can enter and leave by a different entrance from the men. There will be a separate seating area for them and an earlier announcement spoke of screens and internal communications to prevent any mingling of the sexes, which is forbidden by the country's strict interpretation of Islamic law.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:33 (thirteen years ago)

i guess this is a thing now, i keep seeing coverage of it:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbehar/2013/01/11/news-flash-jews-are-apes-and-pigs-so-why-is-egypts-morsi-the-elephant-in-americas-newsrooms/

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:29 (thirteen years ago)

genuinely curious -- is "apes and pigs" a standard trope of anti-semitism?

max, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:35 (thirteen years ago)

i have to admit i didn't know about this from morsi. but i did kind of figure most the ikhwan was basically anti-semitic even if the upper echelon tried to finesse it on camera, as it were.

however:

Commentary magazine, American Thinker and Breitbart thoughtfully weighed in on the subject. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), Jewish Talk Radio, and the Christian Broadcasting Network also saw value in covering it. So did – of all things — a prominent national stock-picking and finance newspaper, Investor’s Business Daily. Fox News entertainer Sean Hannity has been pouncing on it — no surprise there. (Do I really have to tune in to that unpleasant loudmouth if I want to be sure not to miss such newsworthy information?)

i really don't like when writers play dumb like this. "thoughtfully weighed in on the subject"? yeah i'll bet

goole, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:36 (thirteen years ago)

there is no group of humans less pig like than the jews

iatee, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:36 (thirteen years ago)

didn't art spiegelman get some grief for portraying the Poles as pigs in MAUS?

Ward Fowler, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:38 (thirteen years ago)

this might actually convince me to buy a haaretz sub:

Plant a tree in Israel
Purchase a Haaretz digital subscription and we will plant a tree in your honor to help rehabilitate the Carmel forests

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:38 (thirteen years ago)

genuinely curious -- is "apes and pigs" a standard trope of anti-semitism?

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=786

In three instances (Surahs 2, 5, and 7), the Quran tells of Muhammad turning Jews into apes and/or pigs. For instance, Surah 5:60 states, “Those (Jews) who incurred the curse of Allah and his Wrath, and those of whom (some) He transformed into apes and swine.” Another section of the Quran compares the Jews to donkeys. There are two differing traditions in Islam regarding what happened to the Jews who were turned into pigs. One view maintains that all pigs alive today are descendants of the Jews who were turned into pigs by Allah. The other view holds that all the Jews who were turned into pigs by Allah died out without reproducing, and therefore there is no relationship between today’s pigs and Jews:

“There are two opinions among the Ulama [Islamic scholars] in this regard: The first is that the Jews, whom Allah transformed and turned into pigs, remained in that state until they died, without producing descendants. The other opinion is that the Jews who turned into pigs multiplied and produced descendants, and their line continues to this day.
Sheikh Othman [Ahmed Ali Othman, supervisor of the Da'awa (Islamic Indoctrination) of the Egyptian Waqf Islamic Holy places]: "I personally tend towards the view that the pigs that exist now have their origins with the Jews, and therefore their consumption is forbidden in the words of Allah: 'A carcass, and blood, and the flesh of a pig are forbidden to you....' Moreover, our master Jesus, peace be unto him - one of the tasks that he will fulfill when he descends to earth is the killing of the pigs, and this is proof that their source is Jewish. Sheikh Othman said that whoever eats pig, it's as if he ate meat of an impure person…
Sheikh Ali Abu Al-Hassan, head of the Fatwa Committee at Al-Azhar [Sunni Islamic university], said that the first view is accurate, because when Allah punishes a group of people he punishes only them. When Allah grew angry with the nation of Moses, He turned them into pigs and apes as an extraordinary punishment... but they died out without leaving descendants."
[Al-Moheet Arab News Network, May 10, 2009, Al-Hakika al-Dawliya, May 9, 2009]

PA religious representatives on numerous occasions have used this tradition to malign Jews, calling them “apes and pigs” in sermons and programs broadcast on Palestinian Authority television.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:40 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.rescue.org/sites/default/files/resource-file/IRCReportMidEast20130114.pdf

Should the flow of refugees continue at its current pace, the u.n. estimates that the syrian refugee population could grow to one million in the next six months. The refugee influx is straining the already limited resources of the neighboring countries. In particular, the health, water, education and sanitation systems of host communities are increasingly struggling to cope and the cost of rent and commodities is rising. as tensions grow, the welcome mat is beginning to wear thin.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 16:59 (thirteen years ago)

Syrian President Bashar Assad and his family have been living on a warship, with security provided by Russia, intelligence sources told a Saudi newspaper.

An Al-Watan report Monday says the family and Assad aides are residing on the ship in the Mediterranean Sea and that he travels to Syria by helicopter to attend official meetings and receptions.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2013/01/14/Report-says-Assad-residing-on-warship/UPI-95401358162184/#ixzz2HyDhdzsJ

max, Monday, 14 January 2013 17:02 (thirteen years ago)

I guess Russian abandonment of Assad has been overstated.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 17:03 (thirteen years ago)

Give Russia another client state in the Mediterranean to replace their naval base at Tartus, and they'd drop Syria fairly promptly. They have enough problems with enraged Sunnis (like the FSA) as it is.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 20:05 (thirteen years ago)

You have one in mind?

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 20:06 (thirteen years ago)

Curiously, none of the warships of the Syrian Navy have a helicopter deck, so if Al-Watan isn't propagandizing here, that would mean he's likely on a Russian vessel.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 20:12 (thirteen years ago)

A different theory for why Russia supports Assad:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/opinion/why-russia-supports-assad.html

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 20:17 (thirteen years ago)

xp Mordy - it would have to be Lebanon, as pretty much every other Mediterranean country has strong military ties with the West, either NATO members, Bosnia (NATO protected since 1995), or non-aligned North Africans that get most of their arms from the West. Russia's been trying not to get bottled up in the Black Sea for centuries, they lost that geopolitical battle after the Cold War.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 20:22 (thirteen years ago)

I suspect the Tartus naval base is overstated as Russia's reason for supporting Assad.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 20:24 (thirteen years ago)

I should've called this rolling greater middle east 2013 so I could chat about Mali here.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 20:40 (thirteen years ago)

It's minor, yes, but Russia has a dwindling number of "client" states. Only Belarus, Bolivia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Ecuador, Iran, Nicaragua, Russian, Syria, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe voted against the UN General Assembly resolution condemning Syria. Even Sri Lanka (which faced its own bloody revolt), Vietnam and Myanmar (both had pretty strong ties with Syria) abstained. I can see where a retaining some foothold in the Levant would be seen as pretty vital to Moscow's longer-term geopolitical game. Probably will blowback against them, but geopolitical games have that tendency.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 20:46 (thirteen years ago)

re: Mali

Music, long at the center of Malian culture (it also happens to be very good), is now banned.

On the bright side, more tours by Tinariwen.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 20:50 (thirteen years ago)

Oops, maybe not. Their vocalist was just arrested by the Ansar Dine.

If the casual brutality in Paul Bowles books are anything to go by, the Malian Islamists would likely be the cruelest Islamists worldwide.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 20:54 (thirteen years ago)

That's terrible... almost everything I know about Mali I know from their music scene. There was an article a little bit ago about fatoumata diawara (iirc) being threatened with death if she returned to Mali. It's really tragic. I couldn't help but be a little heartened by some French intervention, tho at this point it's probably more about containing the mess than actually putting the fires out.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 20:58 (thirteen years ago)

It was Khaïra Arby -- and they threatened to cut her tongue out.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 21:03 (thirteen years ago)

Like the Taliban, the Ansar Dine have already started destroying UNESCO sites, not sure if this is the tomb of a Sufi saint ransacked by them, or just stock photography of a Timbuktu site used (repeatedly) for illustration.

http://whc.unesco.org/uploads/thumbs/site_0119_0001-500-375-20120701081522.jpg

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 21:09 (thirteen years ago)

A useful map for the Malian conflict, somewhat dated:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-G0TJ7yvZWZY/UEiBZCQKMtI/AAAAAAAAAuc/5LpXB1BzQ0w/s1600/mali_rebellion_2012-9-6.png

In the past days a Malian outpost in Dibaly (177km roughly due-North of Segou) was overrun by the Ansar Dine, and the French Embassy in Bamako ordered the evacuation of all French nationals from Segou, so things are going pretty poorly for the government.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 January 2013 21:30 (thirteen years ago)

nyt covers morsi video, says "his previous statements has now trapped him in a political bind"

Mordy, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 04:05 (thirteen years ago)

i don't know if i'd take paul bowles novels into consideration re: malian islamists

the late great, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 05:14 (thirteen years ago)

Not so much Islamists per se, but the Touareg and other semi-nomads of the deep Sahara have historically been the local caravan raiders and slave traders, feared for their cruelty (& and subsequently oppressed) by both "local" and colonial regimes. Michael Asher wrote a great travelogue of his camel trek across the Sahara in the early 80s, and there were some groups like the black turbaned Touareg that he feared encountering with very good reason. I seem to recall them also featuring as the local boogiemen in Isabelle Eberhardt's missives from the turn of the last century. And now, Salafists largely drawn from the Touareg are getting home-rule over an area the size of France, and they have a lot of good reasons for resenting both the Bamako government and Western ways.

Just saying, if the Taliban were desert raiders united by an Islamist ideology rather than isolationist mountain valley farmers united by an Islamist ideology, things might be even worse.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 06:41 (thirteen years ago)

And that should be indigo turbans, not black...

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 06:46 (thirteen years ago)

French commit more troops to Mali:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/world/africa/france-mali-intervention.html

Mordy, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 14:57 (thirteen years ago)

x-post -The Tuaregs have gotten pushed out of the way in the North by the fundamentalist Ansar Dine and AQUIM

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 19:03 (thirteen years ago)

My understanding is that while the MLNA is the nationalist Tuareg movement fighting for an independent Azawad, the victorious Islamist Ansar Dine is a multi-racial coalition led by Iyad Ag Ghaly, leader of the 1990s Tuareg rebellions. So it isn't exactly true that the Tuaregs as a whole have lost, just that the nationalist Tuaregs lost out to the Islamist Tuaregs.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 20:01 (thirteen years ago)

Pigs-&-Apes-gate update:

The White House on Tuesday strongly condemned comments that Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi was reported to have made in 2010 when he was a Muslim Brotherhood leader and which were widely regarded as anti-Semitic in nature.

White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters that the language Morsi had used was "deeply offensive" and that US officials raised concerns with the Egyptian government on the matter.

Syria update:

A series of devastating explosions struck the Aleppo University campus in Syria on Tuesday, antigovernment activists and Syrian state television reported, in what appeared to be a major expansion of the violent struggle for control of the largest city in the nearly two-year-old Syrian conflict. Each side blamed the other for the blasts, and the activists said more than 50 people were killed.

Mordy, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 20:03 (thirteen years ago)

xp:

And its also worth noting that the multi-racial makeup of the Ansar Dine has been a problem for Bamako government troops. There was an attack reported in the past few days in which a civilian bus of black/Sahelian Ansar Dine fighters was waved through an initial checkpoint only to wipe out a second checkpoint, so clearly the government troops thought they were fighting a Berber/Tuareg rebellion until just a few days ago.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 20:07 (thirteen years ago)

Ghaly is a Tuareg true, but it is my understanding that the longtime nationalist Tuareg movement wanted independence for north Mali but not fundamentalist Islam; and it is not clear to me how many members of Ghaly's Ansar Dine are Tuareg (and how many are Algerian or from elsewhere). Many north Malian musicians were identified as Tuareg over the years, yet the Ansar Dine have been outlawing music. There has not been as far as I know a long tradition of fundamentalist Islam in Mali which is why music and Sufi Islam art and culture has existed for quite some time in north Mali, and historic items have only been destroyed now.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/06/20126295148565734.html

The Tuareg have demanded a secular independent state, but have increasingly been pushed aside by the Islamist fighters.

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 20:17 (thirteen years ago)

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/mass-grave-found-in-aleppo-amid-fierce-fighting/

Mordy, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 21:38 (thirteen years ago)

I wonder to what extent anxiety about how they are perceived as a world power played into france's decision to intercede in mali. i feel like they need to prove to the world that they're a global player, not just another greece.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 00:29 (thirteen years ago)

According to report in Foreign Policy, a secret American investigation reveals Assad forces used a poisonous gas against his own people in Homs on December 23, 2012.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 05:27 (thirteen years ago)

Stumbled across the U.S. State Department's Arabic YouTube propaganda channel while looking for videos of Ansar Dine. Some (a lot) of it is laughably poor compared to some jihadist videos I've seen in music and editing. Definitely no Goebbels on the payroll. Worth sampling for those curious about their tax dollars at work.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 06:28 (thirteen years ago)

xp: having viewed a couple videos taken in ERs after the Dec 23 Homs gas attack, my guess is low dose phosgene which is odorless, no skin blistering, no convulsions, mostly causing difficulty breathing, and in higher concentrations, suffocation. Responsible for 80% of WWI gas deaths, mostly because of the slow onset of symptoms from a colorless/odorless gas.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 06:59 (thirteen years ago)

It's interesting how little Obama wants to get involved in Syria. Partially I'm sure it's because of Russia but if he really wanted to go in he could play up the 12/23 gas attack.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 13:37 (thirteen years ago)

Non-interventionists fished their wish on Syria but I can't help but think the Syrians would prefer they hadn't.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 13:37 (thirteen years ago)

French bodies are now on the ground:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/world/africa/france-mali-intervention.html

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:30 (thirteen years ago)

Israeli occupation gets an unwelcome spotlight from two Oscar-nominated documentaries

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/16/israel_confronts_its_image_problem/

saltwater incursion (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:33 (thirteen years ago)

i want to see the gatekeepers

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:35 (thirteen years ago)

the foreboding music is a little OTT imo but pretty compelling stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZepXBymtkUQ

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:37 (thirteen years ago)

id guess the french troops are probably foreign legion

kinda feel that french air support and peacekeeping troops from other african nations supported by french special forces as necessary has better ~optics~ than french commandos in an ex-colony

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:38 (thirteen years ago)

Mali's in the Middle East?

Designated Striver (Tom D.), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:40 (thirteen years ago)

I should've called this rolling greater middle east 2013 so I could chat about Mali here.

― Mordy, Monday, January 14, 2013 3:40 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:40 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/01/16/world/africa/16reuters-algeria-kidnap.html

ALGIERS (Reuters) - Islamist militants attacked a gas production field in southern Algeria on Wednesday, kidnapping at least nine foreigners and killing two people including a French national during a dawn raid, local and company officials said.

The raid, claimed by an al Qaeda affiliate, came after Islamists had vowed to retaliate for France's military intervention in Mali, where its forces have been in action against al Qaeda-linked militants since last week.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:41 (thirteen years ago)

Mali's in the Greater Middle East?

Designated Striver (Tom D.), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:41 (thirteen years ago)

close enough. one of the points of the thread was to talk about events in the middle east from a more aerial view - instead of balkanizing conversation over a dozen threads or so. obv what happens in mali is very relevant to what happens in libya, algeria, etc.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:43 (thirteen years ago)

Amusing interview on Channel 4 news about the French intervention, Malian guy was asked if he wasn't uncomfortable with a former colonial power getting involved with his country and he said, "No, in fact I'd like them to colonise us again"

Designated Striver (Tom D.), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:44 (thirteen years ago)

if you want to start a new thread on mali tho i certainly won't protest.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:44 (thirteen years ago)

Nah, carry on

Designated Striver (Tom D.), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 15:45 (thirteen years ago)

i feel like they need to prove to the world that they're a global player, not just another greece.

This is true to some extent but there are other greater factors:

Hollande wants to be seen as decisive and improve his standing in the polls;

There are thirty thousand French citizens in Wset Africa, many thousands of whom are in Mali, including eight hostages in Mali - whose plight has been page one in the French press for some time;

The whole Libyan situation and its perceived success in France is now clouded by the collapse of Malian govmt authority in the North, though the threat does not appear to be only from Touaregs. Libya and Algeria (where Hollande recently visited) are very important to France and Italy also as oil providers.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 16:00 (thirteen years ago)

it's interesting how no matter who the french put in office, they still find themselves in northern africa

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 16:04 (thirteen years ago)

"With the current intervention of the French, we are, of course, very afraid that the humanitarian situation will worsen very quickly," said Salvatore Saguès, West Africa researcher at Amnesty International.

He said civilian casualties were virtually unavoidable - despite France's best efforts to target rebel fighters in its bombing campaign - because rebels were living among civilians.

"It is simply impossible to really separate the armed groups and the population because the armed groups (are) in towns, in civilian buildings," Saguès told AlertNet in a phone interview.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 16:29 (thirteen years ago)

they still find themselves in northern africa (and Western Africa)

And vice-versa

Canaille help you (Michael White), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 16:38 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/why-france-intervened-unilaterally-in-mali-by-zaki-laidi#Ebf683ZPuIWzH5cS.99

So, with the security of Europe as a whole at stake, why is France the only country involved?

One explanation is to view the intervention as a neo-colonial bid to protect a French preserve. This is a profound error. France has no interest in protecting a Malian regime that it knows to be corrupt and incompetent; indeed, France recently refused to support a request from President François Bozizé’s regime in the neighboring Central African Republic for aid in dealing with rebels.

France’s motivations are broader. In particular, France has always considered Sub-Saharan Africa and the Arab world to be natural spheres of political and strategic influence that are necessary to maintaining its position as a global power.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:05 (thirteen years ago)

I meant to quote the next paragraph too: "The second explanation is more credible: France, aside from Great Britain, is Europe’s only true military power. It believes that operational military capability is a condition of power – a view that is not shared by the overwhelming majority of European states, which continue to display a collective aversion to war."

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:06 (thirteen years ago)

Europe is reluctant to develop a substantial military force, because the European project was created in opposition to the idea of power. Yet this stance has become untenable. Europe faces real threats, which France alone cannot contain. Moreover, the international system is increasingly coalescing around national powers that consider military force to be an essential prerequisite of influence. Europe does not face a choice between soft and hard power. It must combine both if it is to survive.

to write this whole article and not mention economics even once is pretty crazy

goole, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:35 (thirteen years ago)

Europe as a whole currently devotes only 1.6% of its GDP to defense, compared to 4.8% for the US. It is the only world region where military expenditures are decreasing.

it's one of the only areas of the world where GDPs are decreasing! wtf man

goole, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:35 (thirteen years ago)

why is France the only country involved?

Germany has lent some transport planes I believe.

41 ppl taken and 400 ppl retained at BP site in Algeria by AQIM in retaliation for Algeria allowing France to use its airspace for Mali.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:39 (thirteen years ago)

if economics were such a substantial role france would not be in mali atm. i'm pretty sure they can't afford it.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:39 (thirteen years ago)

wait what

goole, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:44 (thirteen years ago)

what?

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:46 (thirteen years ago)

he's wondering why "europe as a whole" has such low military expenditure. the better-off countries (germany, france, GB) have acted outside their borders (with some reluctance) but those closer to the problems (spain, italy) have done almost nothing. both of those countries are basket cases right now! to not acknowledge that is dumb.

it's not just economics, the basic democratic appetite for military action is very low in europe. this is a surfacey reading, but conservative/militarist constituencies in europe seem more interested in an anti-muslim form of isolationism, not in liberal-internationalist interventions

it's one thing to argue that europe should beef up, but another to dimly wonder why they haven't. it's pretty obvious imo.

goole, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:51 (thirteen years ago)

might as well ask why greece hasn't intervened in syria. i mean, they're right there...

goole, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:52 (thirteen years ago)

maybe not individual countries but surely the EU could put something together collectively

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:53 (thirteen years ago)

At the height of the cold war European NATO countries spent 2% vs the 4-7% (depending on whether there was a war on) of the U.S. Europe just got the peace dividend, while the U.S. kept its system of Keynesian militarism, regardless of whether there were worthy state foe nails for all the hammers we built.

France does 5% of her trade with Africa. There's a similar paternalism as with the U.S. in Latin America, for better and worse. 47+ military interventions in post-colonial Africa by France, which exceeds the U.S. record in Latin America (over the sme time period). One reason we should have paid more attention when France opposed our Iraq fiasco in 2003., experience still counts.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 18:05 (thirteen years ago)

Who is the outlier? It's not Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Military_expenditure_percent_of_GDP.svg/500px-Military_expenditure_percent_of_GDP.svg.png

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 18:10 (thirteen years ago)

in Morocco last week locals told me they were *pissed* that Hollande chose to visit Algeria rather than Morocco as his first North Africa trip. evidently it's standard for French presidents to visit Morocco before Algeria. don't really get the relationship between Morocco & France, as former colonizers.

Euler, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 18:26 (thirteen years ago)

Islamist militants seized a foreign-operated gas field in Algeria early Wednesday and took at least 20 foreign hostages, including Americans, according to an Algerian government official and the country’s state-run news agency, in what the attackers called a retaliation for the French-led military intervention in neighboring Mali.

The Algerian agency said at least at least two people had been killed in the gas-field seizure, including one British national, and that the hostages included American, British, French, Norwegian and Japanese citizens.

YOU AINT SEEN NO INTERVENTION YET!

saltwater incursion (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 18:44 (thirteen years ago)

as usual i am deeply impressed by your incisive analysis

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 18:46 (thirteen years ago)

none required for perpetual war for perpetual peace

saltwater incursion (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 18:48 (thirteen years ago)

Morsi told a delegation of U.S. senators visiting Cairo on Wednesday that the remarks needed to be put "in the context in which they were said", his spokesman said in a statement.

The context being that they weren't intended for the West to hear, I guess.

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 20:01 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.alwasatnews.com/3784/news/read/730955/1.html

Saudi cleric Sheikh Abdul Rahman bin Nasser Al-Barrak has forbidden democracy.

He said "the system of elections is a corrupt system that is not legitimate for Muslims... It is an exotic idea from the enemies of Islam because of their occupation of their land."

Mordy, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 22:33 (thirteen years ago)

don't really get the relationship between Morocco & France, as former colonizers.

'56 was way less stresful than '62

Canaille help you (Michael White), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 22:59 (thirteen years ago)

this is pretty good i thought

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/01/21/130121fa_fact_remnick

made me think of this thread b/c remnick brings up the morsi apes comment

max, Thursday, 17 January 2013 13:03 (thirteen years ago)

i think it's a really good piece. the morsi bit is pretty minor - i would read the article to get an idea of what is going on in israeli politics, not to get any insight into the israeli-egyptian relationship.

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 15:18 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/18/world/africa/algeria-militants-hostages.html

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 15:47 (thirteen years ago)

four hostages escaped

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 16:31 (thirteen years ago)

no im not saying that its a good read on that, just that its the first mainstream american outlet to mention the comment i think? it came out before the nyt article at any rate

max, Thursday, 17 January 2013 16:39 (thirteen years ago)

oh, okay. i didn't realize. i think it's a very good piece in any case. worth reading.

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 16:46 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/138764/noam-sheizaf/israels-left-in-the-dark

curmudgeon, Thursday, 17 January 2013 16:59 (thirteen years ago)

Haven't read it yet

curmudgeon, Thursday, 17 January 2013 17:00 (thirteen years ago)

the left in israel is about as ideologically incoherent and intellectually bankrupt as the right in the united states

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 17:06 (thirteen years ago)

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-moderate-pa-also-routinely-calls.html

The apes + pigs thing is also prevalent in the PA.

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 18:49 (thirteen years ago)

Where does that even come from, seeing as it appears to be a common phrase used by anti-semitic Arabs? Are those just culturally offensive animals and so they pop into the mind readily (like calling people rats or cockroaches in the Western world) or is there some big history to this?

Frobisher the (Viceroy), Thursday, 17 January 2013 18:55 (thirteen years ago)

It's from the Koran

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 19:15 (thirteen years ago)

oic

Frobisher the (Viceroy), Thursday, 17 January 2013 20:42 (thirteen years ago)

it is not an explicit reference to jews though

the late great, Thursday, 17 January 2013 20:57 (thirteen years ago)

What do you mean? The surahs were Allah turns people into apes and pigs are referring to Jews.

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:01 (thirteen years ago)

where*

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:01 (thirteen years ago)

which surah are you talking about? 5:60?

the late great, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:06 (thirteen years ago)

2:65? 7:166?

the late great, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:10 (thirteen years ago)

7:166, 2:65, and 5:60

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:12 (thirteen years ago)

ok but 2:62 says

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

the late great, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:14 (thirteen years ago)

from what I understand the Koran on isn't talking about *all* Jews being turned into pigs / apes, but only the disobedient ones. isn't that going to depend on whether Jews believe that Allah is their God? I dunno what the state of the art is on that question. (the Catholic priest with whom I studied Islamic philosophy thought that the Christian God = Allah fwiw)

but what the books say isn't really the point, it's how people today take the book to mean that Allah turned the Jews into pigs

Euler, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:14 (thirteen years ago)

euler otm

7:159 says

And of Moses' folk there is a community who lead with truth and establish justice therewith.

the late great, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:17 (thirteen years ago)

allah is the god of the people of the book, god of christians, jews, moslems and of the pre-abrahmic prophets too

the late great, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:19 (thirteen years ago)

from what I understand the Koran on isn't talking about *all* Jews being turned into pigs / apes, but only the disobedient ones. isn't that going to depend on whether Jews believe that Allah is their God? I dunno what the state of the art is on that question. (the Catholic priest with whom I studied Islamic philosophy thought that the Christian God = Allah fwiw)

but what the books say isn't really the point, it's how people today take the book to mean that Allah turned the Jews into pigs

Yeah, that's fair. I obviously know that the Koran doesn't say that he turned all Jews into pigs/apes. Just some of them. And like you said, what matters more is how it's used/interpreted. Ancient documents say all kinds of hideous shit.

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:29 (thirteen years ago)

yeah it is just too easy for people to conflate "people who received the scripture but disrespected islam" with "zionists" or "jews"

the late great, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:43 (thirteen years ago)

I find people who try to discredit contemporary Islamic movements by deriding the Koran, or indicating how the perniciousness is found in original holy scripture, to be pretty misguided. If you want to attack Morsi, there's plenty of fodder without waging a war against the theology of the Koran. Still, if you want to know why he calls Jews apes and pigs, the obvious antecedent is koranic.

Mordy, Thursday, 17 January 2013 21:50 (thirteen years ago)

LONDON — Mokhtar Belmokhtar, the one-eyed smuggler-jihadist said to be behind the seizure of foreign hostages at a gas plant in Algeria, has been a notorious kingpin of the Sahara for more than a decade.

As a successful kidnapper, cigarette smuggler — he is nicknamed “Mr. Marlboro” — and go-between for Al Qaeda, Mr. Belmokhtar has been a wanted man in his native Algeria after returning from training with jihadists in Afghanistan in 1993.

Cigarette smuggler! And I thought Robert Levinson's "researching a cigarette-smuggling case" was just a ridiculously bad cover story!

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 04:13 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/18/opinion/global/ayaan-hirsi-ali-morsis-comments-on-jews.html

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 05:04 (thirteen years ago)

lol mordy was that you in the fr3ddi3 d3b03r comment section yesterday?

max, Friday, 18 January 2013 13:46 (thirteen years ago)

mmaybe

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 14:27 (thirteen years ago)

haha. i was going to jump in myself but you took care of it pretty handily

max, Friday, 18 January 2013 14:46 (thirteen years ago)

from last election:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXC5tT3T7Qs&feature=youtu.be

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 16:06 (thirteen years ago)

my youtube embeds never work!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXC5tT3T7Qs

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 16:06 (thirteen years ago)

jeezus, wtf is going on in algeria?

what are the militants demanding in return for the hostages?

Z S, Friday, 18 January 2013 16:22 (thirteen years ago)

mali spillover, right? apparently algeria loves the counter-terrorism stuff.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 16:27 (thirteen years ago)

from the same article:

Dozens of hostages may still be held by militants at a remote gas field facility in the Algerian desert on Friday, according to Algeria’s state-run news agency, a day after the nation’s military launched an intense assault that freed captives, killed kidnappers but also left some hostages dead.

The agency said that the country’s special forces were seeking to reach a “peaceful solution” with a “terrorist group” that was still holding hostages at the gas field.

"“Those who think we will negotiate with terrorists are delusional,” the communications minister, Mohand Saïd Oublaïd, said in an announcement about the assault on the facility near In Amenas, in eastern Algeria."

so they're pursuing a peaceful solution...without negotiating?

Z S, Friday, 18 January 2013 16:28 (thirteen years ago)

The chief United Nations nuclear inspector says no deal has been reached with Iran to investigate that nation's controversial nuclear program, but that a meeting will take place next month on the issue.

International Atomic Energy Agency team leader Herman Nackaerts said Friday that two days of "intensive discussions" in Tehran failed to produce an agreement on access to Iranian nuclear facilities.

Citing unspecified "differences," Nackaerts said the two sides could not agree on a structured approach to resolve outstanding issues. He said another round of talks will take place February 12 in Tehran.

The IAEA had hoped to gain access to the Parchin military site, which Western nations suspect is related to nuclear weapons development. Iran says it is a conventional military site and that its nuclear program is strictly for peaceful purposes.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 16:37 (thirteen years ago)

Jpost interview with Bibi: http://www.jpost.com/Features/FrontLines/Article.aspx?id=299991

I wish interviews with American politicians were this candid.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 16:45 (thirteen years ago)

The Tuareg (both nationalist and Islamist) are on the move.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Tuareg_area.png

The borders invented by France for its African colonies were pretty arbitrary. They certainly don't follow tribal boundaries.

A useful map (a bit large) for historians and african music fans:

http://www.african-tribes.org/map-of-african-tribes-2502x2984.jpg

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Friday, 18 January 2013 17:10 (thirteen years ago)

Some nationalistic Tuareg had previously been less on the move due to changing lifestyles driven by weather, jobs, etc., with some living only in Niger, others living only in Mali, etc.

I recently read that Iyad Ag Ghaly, the Tuareg who became head of the Islamic fundamentalist Ansar Dine, became wedded to Sharia law and fundamentalist Islam when he was serving as a Malian diplomat in Saudia Arabia

curmudgeon, Friday, 18 January 2013 17:40 (thirteen years ago)

Seems such a short step from Saudi Wahhabi Islam and full-on Salafist militancy. Pretty much anywhere where the Sauds have funded their exclusively Wahhabi mosques (1500+, stretching from California to Indonesia, and most likely Mali) there's been an uptick of puritanical condemnation of other more permissive strains of Islam...

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Friday, 18 January 2013 17:49 (thirteen years ago)

who knew lollapalooza was still a thing

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 17:54 (thirteen years ago)

xp: And yes, the largest mosque in 90% Muslim Mali is the Bamako Grand Mosque, built with Saudi money in the late 70s.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Friday, 18 January 2013 17:58 (thirteen years ago)

11 people were killed, including seven children and three women, on Thursday in an air strike that targeted a Palestinian refugee camp near Husseiniya of Sayeda Zeinab south of Damascus.

According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, the warplanes targeted the camp with three missiles.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 18:39 (thirteen years ago)

a friend wrote on fb (super dark, but otm i think): "I hope my fellow Jews can find it in their hearts to kill 5 or 6 Syrians so people will start to care about what's going on there."

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 18:40 (thirteen years ago)

another Mali map:

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/international/graphic-mali-conflict-area-615.jpg

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 19:25 (thirteen years ago)

Wake me when either rebellion rises to the death tolls of the Second Congo War, you know the one that caused 2.7–5.4 million deaths from 1998–2003. I don't think it ever penetrated further than the occasional column in international spread of the NYT. Post Somalia/Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya/Israel-Palestine, there's not a lot of appetite for new interventions in brown peoples' civil wars...

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Friday, 18 January 2013 19:59 (thirteen years ago)

Lack of Western intervention in the Rwanda genocide and aftermath is a huge lapse in judgement and common humanity that I can only understand as an expression of racism. I don't think we should wait for either of these rebellions to read Second Congo War numbers before we try to stop them.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 20:02 (thirteen years ago)

to reach*

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 20:02 (thirteen years ago)

Azawad, like Kurdistan, looks like a colonial opportunity missed.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 18 January 2013 20:03 (thirteen years ago)

Only 14.5 million total inhabitants

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 18 January 2013 20:05 (thirteen years ago)

http://i50.tinypic.com/f2ing8.png

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 20:53 (thirteen years ago)

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2013/01/17/261017.html

Salafist leaders in Morocco have condemned the French military intervention in Mali, calling it a “Zionist crusade” and labelling all Muslims who participate in it “ungodly.”

“No Islamic state should provide facilities, such as the use of airspace, to non-Muslims against a Muslim state. It is forbidden by Islam,” wrote Omar Haddouchi, a well-known Salafist, on his Facebook page late on Wednesday.

“Whoever has given support to non-Muslims (in the conflict) is considered ungodly,” Haddouchi added.

Another radical Islamist, Abderrazak Ajah, said Moroccans must “choose between supporting the Islamist fighters as best we can or the Zionist crusade and its agents,” also posting his comments on social media.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 20:59 (thirteen years ago)

ethnolinguistic map of africa is awesome

ogmor, Friday, 18 January 2013 21:03 (thirteen years ago)

xxp I don't know about 'pig-like', since pigs aren't well known for extortionary politics or holding the nutsacks of legislatures in the palms of their hands.... I would say that both have really bad PR issues as of late and are out of step with current American political consensus.

Frobisher the (Viceroy), Friday, 18 January 2013 21:05 (thirteen years ago)

NRA for sure. AIPAC seems within American political consensus imo.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 21:12 (thirteen years ago)

fwiw http://www.gallup.com/poll/153092/americans-continue-tilt-pro-israel.aspx

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 21:15 (thirteen years ago)

"“No Islamic state should provide facilities, such as the use of airspace, to non-Muslims against a Muslim state. It is forbidden by Islam,” wrote Omar Haddouchi, a well-known Salafist, on his Facebook page late on Wednesday."

can't lie: lolling at the facebook detail. how many friends or likes does it take to be a "well-known" Salafist?

Euler, Friday, 18 January 2013 21:32 (thirteen years ago)

Every time I see 'salafist' I get a yen for salsify.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 18 January 2013 21:36 (thirteen years ago)

fb search for Omar Haddouchi not working out, was thinking about friending him!

Euler, Friday, 18 January 2013 21:36 (thirteen years ago)

I'd like to think that Haddouchi established his credibility in conjunction w/ the 2003 Casablanca bombings and not just from being a savvy social media dude. But I'm sure that if it hasn't happened already, there will soon be radicals that came up using linkedin.

Mordy, Friday, 18 January 2013 21:42 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/01/how-did-algeria-screw-up-its-hostage-crisis-so-badly/267335/

imho the world has gotten spoiled watching first rate militaries fight in these asymmetrical conflicts.

Mordy, Saturday, 19 January 2013 02:45 (thirteen years ago)

The United States said for the first time that Americans were among the remaining captives and confirmed the first known death of an American hostage, Frederick Buttaccio, 58, of Katy, Tex.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/world/africa/algeria-militants-hostages.html

Z S, Saturday, 19 January 2013 04:47 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxiu6oGvD8g

Max Pink - Elections Song (lyrics from one israeli song a week)

Elections are soon, nothing is going to change anyways
So what do you care, give me your vote
Don't give it to them, give me your vote
Don't give it to them, that way without votes they won't be able to exist
So what do you care, give me your vote

I don't promise to lower taxes, the prices of appartments will stay skyscrapers
I don't promise to bring peace, it'll be sad if there won't be anythng to dream about
So pick me, pick me
Pick me...

Iran is soon, if you haven't been convinced yet then now the fear is here
Well, what do you care, give me everything
I dont promise to lower taxes, the prices of appartments will stay skyscrapers
I don't promise to bring peace, it'll be sad if there won't be anything to dream about
So pick me, pick me
Pick me...

Mordy, Saturday, 19 January 2013 21:41 (thirteen years ago)

"It’s an open-air prison." - Noam Chomsky

http://paltimes.net/new/ar/gallery/showalbum/31759/صور-جولة-في-الجامعة-الإسلامية.html

http://paltimes.net/new/images/uploads/012013/view_1358432033.jpg

Mordy, Sunday, 20 January 2013 01:45 (thirteen years ago)

French city Lyon briefly evacuates metro on bomb alert

Mordy, Sunday, 20 January 2013 05:01 (thirteen years ago)

NYT

Among those figures, two names stand out: Mokhtar Belmokhtar, the warlord who led the attack on the Algerian gas field, and Abdelhamid Abu Zeid, a leader of Al Qaeda’s North African branch.

“The driving force behind jihadism in the Sahara region is the competition between Abu Zeid and Belmokhtar,” said Jean-Pierre Filiu, a Middle East analyst at the Institut d’Études Politiques in Paris.

Mr. Belmokhtar has generated millions of dollars for the Qaeda group through the kidnapping of Westerners and the smuggling of tobacco, which earned him one of his nicknames, “Mr. Marlboro.” But Mr. Belmokhtar bridles under authority, and last year his rival forced him out of the organization, Mr. Filiu said.

Mordy, Sunday, 20 January 2013 05:14 (thirteen years ago)

iran invented hanging

the late great, Monday, 21 January 2013 01:58 (thirteen years ago)

mordy I can't keep up with your posts in this thread

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Monday, 21 January 2013 02:00 (thirteen years ago)

sorry hurting :(

i just heard a short interview w/ bennett on the BBC.

Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2013 14:55 (thirteen years ago)

http://i46.tinypic.com/2mp0q51.png

Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2013 16:21 (thirteen years ago)

No one mines for uranium in Mali. There are three sizable gold mines (Sadiola Hill, Yatela, Morila) and a few active development projects, all of which are in the government controlled Southeast, and none of which are run by French companies. Anglogold Ashanti (S Af), Iamgold (Can), and Randgold (S Af) are the major players in country.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 21 January 2013 19:19 (thirteen years ago)

That said, the French concern Areva does have a couple of uranium mines in northern Niger, which have suffered the same sorts of kidnappings/ransom issues that Algerians have dealt with from AQIM etc.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Monday, 21 January 2013 19:23 (thirteen years ago)

Shocking the Al Qassam Brigades are not trustworthy analysts of geopolitics.

Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2013 19:26 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2013/01/18/South-Sudan-signs-oil-deal-with-Israel/UPI-91351358531460/

South Sudan says it has signed an agreement with several Israeli oil companies, a potentially significant strategic move that will consolidate the Jewish state's relations with the fledgling, oil-rich East African state.

It will also bolster Israeli moves to counter Iranian inroads into the Red Sea and a major gunrunning route from the Revolutionary Guards base at Bandar Abbas in the Persian Gulf to the Gaza Strip via Sudan.

South Sudan, which became independent of Arab-ruled Sudan in July 2011 after a decades-long civil war, is locked in a frequently violent confrontation over its oil reserves with the military-run Khartoum regime, an ally of Iran, under President Omar al-Bashir.

Sudan has become a battleground in the mostly clandestine war between Israel and the Islamic Republic, which funnels missiles and other arms for Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip through the Red Sea.

South Sudan's petroleum and mining minister, Dhieu Dau, announced the oil deal last week after he returned from a visit to Israel.

Mordy, Monday, 21 January 2013 21:13 (thirteen years ago)

Useful 'reading list' on the mali/algeria crisis:

http://qz.com/45448/algerias-four-day-hostage-crisis-is-over-heres-a-reading-list-and-a-timeline/

I thought this was good, and seems to debunk a lot of the boilerplate responses you get from both left and right in a foreign conflict:

http://bridgesfrombamako.com/2013/01/16/behind-mali-conflict/

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 03:57 (thirteen years ago)

This would make sense if most of the US-trained officers in Mali’s armed forces had defected to the rebels. But that’s not the case: Pentagon-sponsored training was provided to a broad cross-section of officers and NCOs in the Malian military, of which the defectors (most of them Tuareg) made up a minority. US-trained personnel fought on both sides of the conflict: at best the effects of their training were canceled out, at worst they were negligible. The problem with the US military’s training program wasn’t that it benefited the wrong people, it’s that it didn’t work. Following exercises in 2009, detailed in Wikileaks, even one of the Malian army’s most elite units got poor evaluations despite lengthy collaboration with US trainers. Whatever “advantage” such collaboration may have provided, it was the last thing the Tuareg — experienced desert fighters — needed to defeat Malian government forces.

whitehouse seems pretty otm to me about all the debunked reasons, and he gives an excellent reason at the end: state failure. i've been reading him a lot re mali and he really seems to know his stuff. he recommended 'a history of race in muslim west africa,' which i've been reading (very slowly, it's - surprise - really dry). one of the major arguments of the book is that race/racism predated colonialism in western africa which i guess is obvious but i didn't have a lot of knowledge about.

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 04:04 (thirteen years ago)

The War Nerd, as usual, brings plainspoken clarity to the Mali situation.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 05:23 (thirteen years ago)

that intro is a little unfair. it's also one of the most (maybe the most?) important music scenes in the world

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 14:13 (thirteen years ago)

apparently vote in israel is up from last election

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 15:09 (thirteen years ago)

http://i48.tinypic.com/242wp69.png

hmmm, little enthusiasm

http://i50.tinypic.com/5lo51d.png

wat? record turnout???

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:02 (thirteen years ago)

5.41 P.M. Yesh Atid sources say that Channel 10 pollsters informed them that they're set to be the second-largest party.

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:09 (thirteen years ago)

My understanding is that Yesh Atid is the anti-orthodox privilege party (their platform calls for universal draft and equal primary education for orthodox Jews).

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:19 (thirteen years ago)

1. Changing the priorities State priorities, with an emphasis on civil life – education, housing, health, transportation and police, as well as improving the condition of the middle class.
2. Changing the system of government.
3. Equality in education and the draft: all school students must be taught essential classes (the 3 Rs, if you will), everybody will be drafted into the Army, and all the citizens will be encouraged to seek work, including the ultra-Orthodox and the Arabs.
4. War against corruption, including corruption in government in the form of institutions like "minister without portfolio," opting for a government of 18 ministers at most, fortifying the rule of law and protecting the status of the High Court.
5. Growth and economic efficiency – creating growth engines as a way to fight poverty, combating red tape, removing barriers, improving the transportation system, reducing the cost of living and housing costs, and improving social mobility through assistance to small businesses.
6. Education legislation in cooperation with teachers' unions, eliminating most of the matriculation exams, raising the differential education index, increasing school autonomy.
7. Enact a constitution to regulate tense relations between population groups in Israel.
8. Strive for peace according to an outline of "two states for two peoples," while maintaining the large settlement blocs and ensuring the safety of Israel.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/politics/new-party-12-seats-projected-in-polls-includes-chairman-lapids-makeup-artist-karate-trainer/2012/05/04/0/?print

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:21 (thirteen years ago)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/395550_523949214293418_1024587035_n.jpg

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:26 (thirteen years ago)

Isn't that Bennett?

Canaille help you (Michael White), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:29 (thirteen years ago)

yes

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:30 (thirteen years ago)

What are frumies?

Canaille help you (Michael White), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:36 (thirteen years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frum

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:40 (thirteen years ago)

6.00 P.M. Voter tunrout stands at record 55.5 percent. The electoral threshold is likely to rise to 80,000 votes, as opposed to 67,000 in 2009.

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:42 (thirteen years ago)

the really large tweet embeds & screengrabs itt make me feel like i am an old guy reading haaretz with a magnifying glass

rockism against racism (schlump), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:44 (thirteen years ago)

it looks like israel is going to have a higher % turnout than the us did last year.

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 16:50 (thirteen years ago)

anti-Orthodox privilege party? I have a feeling I'm never gonna understand Israeli politics unless I take some online history of Judaism course...

Frobisher the (Viceroy), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 17:52 (thirteen years ago)

http://prospect.org/article/tribal-warfare

moët plaudit (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 17:54 (thirteen years ago)

some charedi Jews get dispensations from serving in the military - that's the major privilege being fought over

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:13 (thirteen years ago)

Can't imagine Bennett actually has the rights to Bert for that ad.

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:15 (thirteen years ago)

anti-Orthodox privilege party? I have a feeling I'm never gonna understand Israeli politics unless I take some online history of Judaism course...

― Frobisher the (Viceroy), Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:52 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The combination of parliamentary politics and intra-Jewish disputes (a culture of "two rabbis, three opinions") has some pretty batshit results.

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:16 (thirteen years ago)

8.06 P.M. Netanyahu calls on supporters: "The Likud government is in danger, go vote for us for the sake of the country's future."

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:21 (thirteen years ago)

what was the polling consensus on this race going into today? or does the small-ish size and multiparty nature of the contest render israeli elections essentially unpollable?

(if you can't tell i haven't been following this v closely)

goole, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:33 (thirteen years ago)

going into the race likud was expected to win + form new government w/ some combo of labor, yesh atid, and bayit yehudi coming after.

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:35 (thirteen years ago)

it's always struck me as kind of unique how quickly and how often parties are founded and fielded in israeli politics (even if the constituencies stay relatively stable (right?). a whole new political party showing up and winning significantly would be extraordinary news in just about any other democracy, i think.

goole, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:37 (thirteen years ago)

stray parens there

goole, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:38 (thirteen years ago)

france is a bit like that

moët plaudit (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:39 (thirteen years ago)

i don't think it's mathematically possible that new government isn't bibi led - no matter how dramatic he might get before polls close

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:47 (thirteen years ago)

in non-israel news:

Russia sends two aircraft to evacuate its citizens and refugees from Syria. As expected, Emergencies Ministry aircraft IL-76 and Yak-42 will evacuate those who wish to leave Syria on January 22nd. The people will be evacuated from the Lebanese capital of Beirut.

The aircraft will take about 100 people, while the number of refugees is estimated at about 150 people.

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 18:58 (thirteen years ago)

polls closed i think. should get exit polling soon, i think. probably results around 7EST

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 20:03 (thirteen years ago)

x-post-Guardian article says Russia is not evacuating every Russian from Syria and

the regime's grip on Damascus does not yet apear under threat. It maintains air supremacy and has made regular use of air force jets to bomb rebel positions and the communities that support them.

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 20:09 (thirteen years ago)

LIVE BLOG: Exit polls give right-wing 61 seats, left-wing 59
Of the more than 5.65 million Israelis eligible to vote, some 3.6 million cast their ballots, with a turnout of 4 percent more than in the 2009 elections.

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 20:17 (thirteen years ago)

Exit Polls: Likud - 31, Yesh Atid - 19, Labor - 17, Shas - 12, Habayit Hayehudi - 12

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 20:23 (thirteen years ago)

Netanyahu's attacks on Bayit Yehudi leader Naftali Bennett boomeranged as did the Likud's on the Bayit Yehudi's list. The strange Hebrew equivalent of the phrase “those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones” is “those with butter on their heads shouldn't go out in the sunshine.”

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 21:31 (thirteen years ago)

danlacey_netanyahu_pancake.jpg

Z S, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 21:38 (thirteen years ago)

http://forward.com/articles/169760/what-are-benjamin-netanyahus-coalition-options-aft/

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2013 22:26 (thirteen years ago)

too early to make any conclusions, but if you hear anyone in the media say that yesh atid's victory will act as a moderating influence on likud read this. already tho i saw nyt + npr declare that this was a huge blow to pro-settlement bloc of israel, i guess bc they still haven't figured out that right/left doesn't map the same way in israel as it does in other countries. i do think bibi is probably going to have to make some kind of agreement w/ shas (aka compromise on orthodox benefits) if he wants the hard right on iran + palestine coalition that i think he does.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 01:21 (thirteen years ago)

80% vote counted - it's a 60-60 split between Left and Right blocs. Arab parties with 11. this is exciting.

danzig, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 01:38 (thirteen years ago)

where are you watching returns?

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 01:40 (thirteen years ago)

times of israel are livebloggin it.

danzig, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 01:41 (thirteen years ago)

israel pretty much voted left on economics and right on settlements.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 01:43 (thirteen years ago)

great analysis on their frontpage re bibi + yesh atid

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 01:44 (thirteen years ago)

With the stunning entrance of an empowered Yesh Atid onto the political stage, Netanyahu could be pulled into the center-right where he is more comfortable. His domestic views and agenda will find ideological fellow travelers in Yesh Atid, while the centrist party’s sheer size will blunt pressure from the right wing of his party and from Jewish Home, which is home to large parts of the ideologically minded settler movement.

Tzipi Livni, leader of the underperforming Hatnua, has already suggested she would join Lapid in entering a Netanyahu-led government. Such a center-right coalition, together with the revitalized Jewish Home, which is desperate to sit in the coalition, would give Netanyahu close to 70 seats, depending on the final count — more than enough to maintain a stable government.

Even if Netanyahu prefers a right-haredi bloc, Yesh Atid’s success is an advantage. Netanyahu’s current list, together with Jewish Home and the haredi parties, have what looks like a slim majority between them.

But unlike the centrist Yesh Atid and Hatnua, Jewish Home and the haredim have fewer options for being in government. Yesh Atid’s ascendance means Netanyahu has other options, strengthening his negotiating position and the stability of even a narrow majority.

The strengthening of Yesh Atid may have solidified Netanyahu as master of the right, while opening the option for a right-centrist government that would look better internationally and could stabilize his political situation in any confrontation with Iran — his top policy priority for the past decade.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 01:45 (thirteen years ago)

sometimes i think bibi is legit the most talented politician alive

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 02:58 (thirteen years ago)

lol xp

running like a young deer (symsymsym), Wednesday, 23 January 2013 05:59 (thirteen years ago)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100198227/france-marches-on-mali-and-the-lefts-anti-war-fervour-falls-silent-is-liberal-interventionism-back-on-the-agenda/

maybe the left just has a soft spot for french colonialism

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 18:26 (thirteen years ago)

Ali Akbar Velayati, adviser to the Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei on international affairs, said the fall of al-Assad will damage the resistance front against Israel.

“The main reason behind our focus on the Syrian issue is to prevent the fall of the resistance line against Israel. If Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, falls the resistance line against Israel will break up,” Velayati stated.

[Velyati] described his fate as a “red line” for the Islamic Republic.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 18:56 (thirteen years ago)

Pnina Tamano-Shata, number 14 on the Yesh Atid list, will be the first ever female MK from Ethiopia.

"Pnina Tamano-Shata, number 14 on the Yesh Atid list, made aliyah from Ethiopia at the age of three. She is a lawyer who in the past worked as a reporter on Channel 1 News. Now, she will be making history as an MK. Previous MKs from Ethiopia have all been male."

super cool imo

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 21:32 (thirteen years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel

cool, strange history

goole, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 21:40 (thirteen years ago)

i tried to find the right thread to turn this into maximum clusterfuck but i'm too tired to worry about it so i'll just stick this link here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/01/you-say-pakistanis-all-hate-the-drone-war-prove-it/267447/

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 January 2013 22:57 (thirteen years ago)

still working my way through it, but:

To get a more complete understanding of Pakistani public opinion, we studied the full range of answers related to drones from the 2010 Pew Global Attitudes Project survey, looking at the respondent-level data. Public commentary has been based upon selective stories about misleading tabulations. For example, a large majority of Pakistanis indicated that the drone strikes killed too many innocents. Drone opponents use this and other questions to link collateral damage to their claim that drone strikes are unpopular. In fact, most Pakistanis were either unaware of the drone program or declined to answer questions about them in 2010. Only 35 percent of the sample professed knowledge of the drone program -- compared to 43 percent who said they knew nothing. The difference is comprised of persons who chose not to answer the question for whatever reason. Most of the drone-critical commentary based upon these 2010 data does not acknowledge that conclusions are being drawn from a minority of all respondents.

this seems to be the author's main argument, or at least one of them, and it's not convincing to me. in 2010, the majority of respondents to the survey indicated that they knew "nothing at all" about the drone program. of those that did know about it, they hated the program. i suppose one could try to make an argument about drones not being that bad if 43% of respondents hadn't heard about it, but isn't it possible that they have other things on their minds, such as, uh, widespread poverty? on top of that, if you look at pew's results for other years (http://www.pewglobal.org/question-search/?qid=428&cntIDs=&stdIDs=), the recognition of the drone program has increased dramatically in the last two years; in 2010 43% "knew nothing". in spring 2011 only 23% knew nothing, and in spring 2012 21% knew nothing.

so the sum of that reads to me like this: the great majority of pakistanis who know about the program hate it, and more and more people are hearing about it as the program continues. i'll keep reading, but this doesn't sound like breaking news

Z S, Thursday, 24 January 2013 00:40 (thirteen years ago)

and fuck me for referring to it as "the program" when i should be saying institutionalized extrajudicial murder instead

Z S, Thursday, 24 January 2013 00:42 (thirteen years ago)

in general it seems silly to try to argue that ppl prefer to be killed one way or another; i do think there are benefits to the drone "program" but positive responses shouldn't really come into the picture imo

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 00:49 (thirteen years ago)

it's final:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2e1ahps.png

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 14:14 (thirteen years ago)

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/01/23/exclusive_morsy_implies_jews_control_the_american_media

oh morsi-paws

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:03 (thirteen years ago)

don't read the comments unless you want the scoop that foreignpolicy commenters also believe jews control the american media

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:07 (thirteen years ago)

center-left >> kadima >> 2

man

goole, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:42 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/01/europe_may_have_no_choice_but_to_become_more_involved_in_the_world_s_hot.html

Reminds me of something Robert Kagan wrote:

Most Europeans do not see the great paradox: that their passage into post-history has depended on the United States not making the same passage. Because Europe has neither the will nor the ability to guard its own paradise and keep it from being overrun, spiritually as well as physically, by a world that has yet to accept the rule of “moral consciousness,” it has become dependent on America’s willingness to use its military might to deter or defeat those around the world who still believe in power politics.

Some Europeans do understand the conundrum. Some Britons, not surprisingly, understand it best. Thus Robert Cooper writes of the need to address the hard truth that although “within the postmodern world [i.e., the Europe of today], there are no security threats in the traditional sense,” nevertheless, throughout the rest of the world — what Cooper calls the “modern and pre-modern zones” — threats abound. If the postmodern world does not protect itself, it can be destroyed. But how does Europe protect itself without discarding the very ideals and principles that undergird its pacific system?

“The challenge to the postmodern world,” Cooper argues, “is to get used to the idea of double standards.” Among themselves, Europeans may “operate on the basis of laws and open cooperative security.” But when dealing with the world outside Europe, “we need to revert to the rougher methods of an earlier era — force, preemptive attack, deception, whatever is necessary.” This is Cooper’s principle for safeguarding society: “Among ourselves, we keep the law but when we are operating in the jungle, we must also use the laws of the jungle.”

I should really read his new book.

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:44 (thirteen years ago)

Because Europe has neither the will nor the ability to guard its own paradise and keep it from being overrun, spiritually as well as physically, by a world that has yet to accept the rule of “moral consciousness,”

this is pretty gross language

max, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:47 (thirteen years ago)

gross, but it nails the current French/Mali situation - if the US isn't going to drop bombs on african countries europe is going to do it themselves

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:48 (thirteen years ago)

googling "Robert Kagan wrong" brings up a number of folks who disagree strongly with his take on Iraq and more. Here's a few

The Reality of American Power: Why Robert Kagan Is Wrong

www.huffingtonpost.com/.../the-reality-of-american-p_b_1293836.html

http://www.salon.com/2007/03/11/kagan_11/

"Why Would any rational person listen to Robert Kagan"

curmudgeon, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:53 (thirteen years ago)

yeah, i wouldn't take him as an authority on anything. i just think this particular idea (US military compensating for EU post-historicism) seems resonant atm.

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 15:58 (thirteen years ago)

For 150 years, Europe has been the hegemon/policeman in Africa, US in Latin America, and after 1945 Southwest and East Asia. The Mali situation is nothing new.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:21 (thirteen years ago)

“Among ourselves, we keep the law but when we are operating in the jungle, we must also use the laws of the jungle.”

Urgh

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:21 (thirteen years ago)

gross, but it nails the current French/Mali situation - if the US isn't going to drop bombs on african countries europe is going to do it themselves

― Mordy, Thursday, January 24, 2013 10:48 AM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i dont think it really nails that situation at all -- in fact im not sure what it has to do with it. its just first class xenophobia/islamophobia about as well-disguised as mori's antisemitism.

max, Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:23 (thirteen years ago)

xp You're not denying tho that over the last 20 years the US has been at the forefront of most of these police-efforts - and that France's return to Africa (Libya + Mali) does indicate a shifting of balance away from US and back to EU, right?

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:24 (thirteen years ago)

No, the US has never had much to do with Africa

For 150 years, Europe has been the hegemon/policeman in Africa, US in Latin America, and after 1945 Southwest and East Asia. The Mali situation is nothing new.

The British Army in Sierra Leone for instance or maybe Robert Kagan never heard about that

Designated Striver (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:29 (thirteen years ago)

France has kept about 4000 troops in Africa for quite a long while, permanently stationed in Gabon (West) and Djibouti (East). The UK maintains useful basing out of Ascension, Diego Garcia, and Gibraltar. The US African Command was only created in 2008, and maintains just an old French airbase in Djibouti, mostly aimed at the Yemen and Somali insurgencies.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:30 (thirteen years ago)

Big British army presence in Kenya too

Designated Striver (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:32 (thirteen years ago)

Man for man, European forces have a higher tooth to tail (combat to logistics) ratio, so they have a problem sustaining forces in distant places for long, which has made them dependent on US airlift and tankers. The ratio in U.S. army forces above brigade level is something like 1:3, and you have things like aircraft carrier battle groups where 7000 sailors are providing a base and protection for 48 F-18 fighter/bombers pilots.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Thursday, 24 January 2013 16:36 (thirteen years ago)

Kinda amused by the choice of colors in that Knesset seating chart. Brown Arabs, Pink lefties, the Orthodox sharing the color of Hamas, and only the Right bearing the color of the flag.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Thursday, 24 January 2013 18:27 (thirteen years ago)

At least the red state/blue state terminology in the U.S. reverses the historical convention...

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Thursday, 24 January 2013 18:30 (thirteen years ago)

when was the last time there were so few likud mps?

running like a young deer (symsymsym), Thursday, 24 January 2013 18:32 (thirteen years ago)

hmm not that long, forgot that they took such a dive in '06

running like a young deer (symsymsym), Thursday, 24 January 2013 18:33 (thirteen years ago)

lol yeah, this is probably going to be the most right-wing government in a while. american media totally dropping the ball.

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 18:35 (thirteen years ago)

Americans don't understand parliamentary systems, and searching for a tipping balance point doesn't make much sense when so many parties are single-issue concerns.

Thought this was a good blogpost (its from a leftist/pro-Palestinian standpoint, I think):

This is the way the results (*) of the elections are being presented in the Israeli press:

Centre Left Bloc Right Bloc

http://cdn.lrb.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/left-bloc-right-bloc-1.png

Other, perhaps more accurate ways to present the election results:

Left Bloc Right Bloc

http://cdn.lrb.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/left-bloc-right-bloc-2.png

Non-Jews Jews

http://cdn.lrb.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/non-jews-jews-corrected.png

Women Men

http://cdn.lrb.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/women-men.png

Willing to take the necessary steps for a two-state solution?

Willing Unwilling

http://cdn.lrb.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/two-state-solution.png

My perhaps naive interpretation is that the election results force Netanyahu to really get in bed with the Ultra-Orthodox/settler parties to form a Right government.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Thursday, 24 January 2013 19:49 (thirteen years ago)

I don't think he does. I think he can sign up w/ lapid, bennett, not pick up shas, and continue settlement building AND end military exemptions for charedim.

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 19:55 (thirteen years ago)

Those graphs are otm, tho. The press has done a woeful job explaining this election imo.

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 19:56 (thirteen years ago)

Hamas arresting Fatah members (google translate link to PalPress)

Mordy, Thursday, 24 January 2013 20:45 (thirteen years ago)

The amount of GDP Europe spends on defense means I have to buy more guns and get less 'butter'.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 24 January 2013 20:55 (thirteen years ago)

The comments in that link make me think writers of Arabic are just as semi-literate as the commenters in English and French

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 24 January 2013 20:59 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/us-mali-rebels-idUSBRE90M16T20130124

One of the leaders of the Islamist Ansar Dine group has now split from that group and formed his own group that wants to negotiate re control of the north.

curmudgeon, Thursday, 24 January 2013 22:18 (thirteen years ago)

most otm analysis of the israeli election i've seen: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/138773/michael-j-koplow/no-israel-did-not-just-vote-for-the-center?page=show

Mordy, Friday, 25 January 2013 00:08 (thirteen years ago)

i've been finding a lot of people who discuss ways europe has ceded military power to the us since ww2, particularly regarding the ussr and nato

West Europeans were meanwhile convincing themselves that they had little to lose from living within an American sphere of influence. The idea of a European "third force" soon disappeared, not because Washington officials lost interest in it, but because the Europeans themselves rejected it. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which came into existence in April 1949, had been a European initiative from the beginning: it was as explicit an invation as has ever been extended from smaller powers to a great power to construct an empire and include them within it. When Kennan, worried that NATO would divide Europe permanently, put forward a plan later that spring looking toward an eventual reunification and neutralization of Germany as a way of ending both the Soviet and American presence on the continent, British and French opposition quickly shot it down. The self-confidence he and other American officials had set out to restore in Western Europe could now manifest itself, or so it appeared, only from within a framwork of reassurance that only the United States could provide.

-Gaddis, John Lewis. We Now Know: Rethinking Cold War History, page 49

Gaddis cites "Empire by Invitation," by Geir Lundestad which i found very interesting in general re ideas of american empire building. he mostly discusses economic investments in europe after the war/the marshall plan and military bases in europe to resist ussr (esp re troops in germany) - but draws a line to the korean war intervention:

As the report of the [NATO] Council states with regard to the Northern, Western, and Southern European groups, "The United States had been requested and has agreed to participate actively in the defense planning as appropriate' (FRUS, 1949:4, pp. 329-37; Kaplan & Tamnes in Riste 1985)

at the end Lundestad is skeptical about the future of the american empire (post Vietnam, resurgent Europe, economic failures at home under reagan, failures to influence iran!!!!!!!, etc) which is kinda prophetic and i think fits nicely into this idea that the last few years have been death gasps of american empire - iraq + afghanistan dramatizing this and suddenly we see in libya and mali a reengagement from france. obv this is more complicated than i'm laying out - i'm not really dealing w/ any history of, europe in africa between 1948-2000 bc it's not really a strength of mine (something i'm trying to fill in) but i don't think kagan is totally off-point that post-history europe relies on an american empire (tbh i first saw the kagan idea quoted in zizek lol), and that as a lot of ppl are pointing out - america is withdrawing from that kind of public role. even tho us is still clearly involved in mali/algeria but certainly more hands off than would be imaginable in maybe 70 years?

Mordy, Friday, 25 January 2013 03:01 (thirteen years ago)

not that i want to overstate american empire dying - i don't think we're seeing a collapse just a reshuffling of power, more players than this brief ahistorical hegemonic period

Mordy, Friday, 25 January 2013 03:03 (thirteen years ago)

I have read some say that Clinton's testimony to Congress was, in part, a message to Obama that he needs to get more involved in North Africa

curmudgeon, Friday, 25 January 2013 15:11 (thirteen years ago)

Hamas is founding a military academy. I'm sure this will only lead to good things in the future.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=300848

Mordy, Friday, 25 January 2013 15:15 (thirteen years ago)

Actually military professionalism and drawing militant factions into the hierarchy of a disciplined force will probably make Gaza and its environs a bit safer. To my knowledge the likely divided Hamas leadership had a pretty hard time stopping militants (either undisciplined Hamas, splinter groups or smaller factions) from lobbing homemade rockets at Sderot. I think Hamas wants to emulate Hizbollah here - strong internal discipline, a deterrent against Israeli incursions, but also clearly distinguishing its military actions as reprisals for specific Israeli actions rather than endless tokens of street gang resentment.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Friday, 25 January 2013 15:35 (thirteen years ago)

Kerry was mentioning the other day that we need to 'compete' with China in Africa. It's funny how our Kenyan socialist President has a worse record in Africa than even Shrub.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 25 January 2013 15:36 (thirteen years ago)

No rockets since Operation Pillar of Defense ended -- maybe Hamas has more internal discipline than they've claimed. xp

Mordy, Friday, 25 January 2013 15:37 (thirteen years ago)

China isn't competing militarily. Its individual corporations are making deals trading engineering of infrastructure (roads/water etc) in return for access to natural resources. The Chicoms are liberally funding the initiative(s) through loans (their central bank is awash with U.S. dollars), but the Chinese military presence is basically 1 frigate serving with the Combined Maritime Force policing Somali piracy.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Friday, 25 January 2013 15:44 (thirteen years ago)

I wasn't implying that they were so much a military presence as an economic one, though.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 25 January 2013 15:51 (thirteen years ago)

I think Obama has made it relatively clear that he believes our biggest foreign security concerns are in the Far East and that Europe should take the inititive in Africa and Syria. I don't think he thinks there's much use in provoking Russia much anymore.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 25 January 2013 15:53 (thirteen years ago)

off topic but they were talking about russia passing laws against homosexual propaganda today on the radio and i couldn't help but think - along w/ stopping adoptions, poisoning journalists, giving weapons to assad, chechnya - russian government is just the fucking worst

Mordy, Friday, 25 January 2013 15:57 (thirteen years ago)

They've made that lovely transition from communist to fascist

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 25 January 2013 16:16 (thirteen years ago)

They've democratically elected a clutch of former KGB operatives, repeatedly, as the memory of Perestroika times is so dismal.

I suspect Russia actually needed a reaction something like the Putin crowd, as privatization was so poorly handled that the country was being ruled by a billionaire kleptocracy and mafia.

I am curious whether there's a urban/exurban thing going on with the social issues, or whether its just the Orthodox patriarchs flexing some electoral muscle.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Friday, 25 January 2013 16:26 (thirteen years ago)

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said Thursday that global inaction on the bloodbath in Syria is a warning to many countries that they cannot count on outsiders' help - no matter how dire the circumstances.

He suggested that this applied to Israel itself, discouraging its people from backing risks for peace, such as the return of strategic Palestinian territories in exchange for various assurances.

"Many of our best friends are telling us ... 'Don't worry, if worst comes to worst the world will inevitably (help),'" Barak said at the World Economic Forum in the Swiss resort of Davos. "It cannot be taken for granted."

The Syrian civil war was a major topic at Davos this year. This was evidenced by the startling vehemence displayed by even Barak and President Shimon Peres - whose country is technically in a state of war with Syria - as they lamented the killing of Syrian innocents.

"It's on the screens all around the world," Barak said, tens of thousands of people "slaughtered by their own leader and the world doesn't move."

His conclusion: Even "unspeakable atrocities ... taking place in front of the eyes of the whole world" cannot guarantee "that there will be enough sense of purpose, sense of direction, unity of political will, readiness to translate it into action ... in a way that will put an end to it."

Mordy, Friday, 25 January 2013 21:30 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/world/africa/us-weighing-how-much-help-to-give-frances-military-operation-in-mali.html

Mr. Obama’s aides say that the model under way in Mali now — with the French taking the lead, and a force from the region backing them up — is exactly what they want to encourage. But some officials say they believe the French went into Mali hastily, in the words of one official “before they understood exactly what they were biting off.”

White House officials say they want to understand the broader political and strategic plan to end the conflict before they get more involved.

lolirony

Mordy, Saturday, 26 January 2013 14:41 (thirteen years ago)

ha well live and learn eh

goole, Saturday, 26 January 2013 20:47 (thirteen years ago)

this seems very, very unlikely to be true:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4337253,00.html

Mordy, Sunday, 27 January 2013 00:34 (thirteen years ago)

dude their source is w0rldnetd41ly

(panda) (gun) (wrapped gift) (silby), Sunday, 27 January 2013 01:08 (thirteen years ago)

that's why it's so unlikely to be true!

Mordy, Sunday, 27 January 2013 01:09 (thirteen years ago)

French and Malian forces pushed toward the fabled desert town of Timbuktu on Sunday, as the two-week-long French mission gathered momentum against the Islamist extremists who have ruled the north for more than nine months.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57566059/french-mali-forces-head-toward-timbuktu/

― curmudgeon, Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:09

curmudgeon, Sunday, 27 January 2013 23:12 (thirteen years ago)

Egypt’s Leader Declares State of Emergency in Three Cities
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK 8:52 PM ET
President Mohamed Morsi resorted to the authoritarian weapon of his deposed predecessor as escalating violence in the streets threatened his government and Egypt’s democracy.

Mordy, Monday, 28 January 2013 03:41 (thirteen years ago)

Sketchy confirmation of Fordo story:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article3670109.ece

Mordy, Monday, 28 January 2013 13:29 (thirteen years ago)

Timbuktu mayor: Mali rebels torched library of ancient manuscripts
Fleeing Islamist insurgents burnt two buildings containing priceless books as French-led troops approached, says mayor

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/28/mali-timbuktu-library-ancient-manuscripts?CMP=twt_gu

curmudgeon, Monday, 28 January 2013 16:12 (thirteen years ago)

Secularist Touareg independentists say that Kidal is no longer under Islamist control.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Monday, 28 January 2013 16:53 (thirteen years ago)

More Fordow confirmations: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/01/fordow-blast-gets-more-confirmation.html

Mordy, Monday, 28 January 2013 21:02 (thirteen years ago)

Good summation of various denials + sources re Fordow: http://www.businessinsider.com/massive-explosion-reported-at-irans-fordow-nuclear-facility-2013-1

Mordy, Monday, 28 January 2013 21:36 (thirteen years ago)

How crazy would it be if this is real and WND broke the story?

Mordy, Monday, 28 January 2013 21:36 (thirteen years ago)

So the French have totally locked out reporters from reporting on Malian conflict:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/01/2013127154355125483.html

Mordy, Monday, 28 January 2013 22:20 (thirteen years ago)

The article says the Malian troops who are with the French now, have done the same. Meanwhile the NY Times reports from liberated areas:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/world/africa/france-mali-conflict.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130128&_r=0

Residents of Gao, who had been under occupation for nearly a year by Islamist fighters, celebrated the arrival of Malian and French troops.

Fatou Cissé, a Gao resident reached by telephone, said crowds were chanting “Vive la France!” and singing the Malian national anthem.

curmudgeon, Monday, 28 January 2013 22:51 (thirteen years ago)

Israel set to become first country to boycott UNHRC review

Something dramatic for tomorrow.

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 05:00 (thirteen years ago)

http://forward.com/articles/170120/israel-boycotts-united-nations-review-of-human-rig/

preview of ICC maybe

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 16:07 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/iran/130129/israel-iran-blast-explosion-fordow-nuclear-plant - Israel denies Fordow story

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 17:54 (thirteen years ago)

Egypt state collapsed:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/world/middleeast/egypt-protest-updates.html

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:40 (thirteen years ago)

mordy i thought you hated misleading headlines

max, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:41 (thirteen years ago)

watch the video. i wouldn't be surprised if military took over by tonight.

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:42 (thirteen years ago)

another mass grave found in syria: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/01/2013129133917989266.html

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:42 (thirteen years ago)

i watched the video. the egyptian state has not collapsed.

max, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:45 (thirteen years ago)

In Port Said on Monday, street battles reached a bloody new peak with a death toll over three days of at least 45, with at least five more protesters killed by bullet wounds, hospital officials said.

The state of emergency imposed by Mr. Morsi virtually eliminates due process protections against abuse by the police.

Angry crowds burned tires and hurled rocks at the police. And the police, with little training and less credibility, hunkered down behind barrages of tear gas, birdshot and occasional bullets.

The sense that the state was unraveling may have been strongest in Port Said, where demonstrators have proclaimed their city an independent nation. But in recent days, the unrest has risen in towns across the country and in Cairo as well. In the capital on Monday, a mob of protesters managed to steal an armored police vehicle, drive it to Tahrir Square and make it a bonfire.

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:46 (thirteen years ago)

i mean, morsi hasn't been dragged out into the streets and killed yet...

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:46 (thirteen years ago)

"There is no law to speak of in Port Said."

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:47 (thirteen years ago)

The Syrian link might be misleading too. Grave implies burial. So not quite a mass grave.

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:48 (thirteen years ago)

ok, you win, the state has collapsed, the military will take over by tonight

max, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:48 (thirteen years ago)

At least 30 people have died in Port Said, officials say, in clashes sparked by the sentencing to death of 21 local people over football riots in Egypt.

Supporters of the defendants tried to storm the prison holding them and attacked police stations.

The 21 were sentenced over riots which killed 74 people after a football game at Port Said stadium last February.

How many of these effluential surveys do you take? (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:48 (thirteen years ago)

If the Egyptian government does collapse, I guess it will be one of the shortest-lived democratic governments on record, though it won't come close to topping the record held by the Russian Democratic Federative Republic.

o. nate, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:49 (thirteen years ago)

that was three days ago

no word on how many died in clashes sparked by the 30 who died in the riots sparked by the sentencing to death of 21 local people over football riots sparked by something or other

How many of these effluential surveys do you take? (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:50 (thirteen years ago)

gov't will only collapse if the army turns on Morsi, no...?

dunno how likely that is

xp

Welcome to my world of proses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:50 (thirteen years ago)

Well, I guess we'll find out tomorrow...

the so-called socialista (dowd), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 18:59 (thirteen years ago)

don't get me wrong, the army saying that publicly is clearly a not-too-thinly-veiled threat to Morsi, but I'm not sure what they expect him to do.

Welcome to my world of proses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:00 (thirteen years ago)

I'm not sure it's a threat to Morsi; probably more of a threat of martial law to the people?

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:02 (thirteen years ago)

Like I never got the impression (esp during the Gaza negotiations) that Morsi had any say beyond what the military let him do anyway.

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:02 (thirteen years ago)

army declaring martial law on its own is a threat to Morsi's legitimacy/power

Welcome to my world of proses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:03 (thirteen years ago)

but maybe we're splitting hairs here

Welcome to my world of proses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:03 (thirteen years ago)

yeah, for sure. i'm not saying that this isn't a threat to morsi - more that the army has held all the cards from the beginning. if they call the democracy thing off morsi isn't going to have any recourse.

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:10 (thirteen years ago)

i mean i don't think they expect him to do anything, he probably doesn't really factor into their decision atm.

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:13 (thirteen years ago)

'Regretful' UNHRC postpones Israel's review over boycott

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:18 (thirteen years ago)

I'm becoming less and less convinced that the UN can successfully complete its "storm troopers in black helicopters take over every US home" plan.

Gukbe, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:20 (thirteen years ago)

Delegates then took the floor, with Egypt's representative declaring that the council faced "a moment of truth".

He cautioned that taking a "soft" approach towards Israel would create a dangerous precedent and leave "a wide-open door for more cases of non-cooperation."

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:21 (thirteen years ago)

Egypt's representative!

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:21 (thirteen years ago)

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/29/under-attack-cairo-hotel-sends-twitter-sos/

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:55 (thirteen years ago)

asma is preggers apparently

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:58 (thirteen years ago)

ESPN background on the football/soccer riot in Egypt:

Underlining the distrust that lingers between much of the public and the police, survivors and witnesses say Mubarak loyalists had a hand in instigating last year's attack, which began after Port Said's home team won the match, 3-1, and that the police at the very least were responsible for gross negligence.

Al-Masry fans stormed the pitch after the game ended, attacking Cairo's Al-Ahly fans. Authorities shut off the stadium lights, plunging it into darkness. In the exit corridor, the fleeing crowd pressed against a chained gate until it broke open. Many were crushed under the crowd of people trying to flee.

Other survivors said it was simply bloodthirsty Al-Masry fans and lack of enough security that led to the deaths of their colleagues, although there has long been bad blood between the two rival teams, both sides blame police for failing to perform usual searches for weapons at the stadium.

Anger is boiling in Port Said, where residents say they have been unfairly scapegoated.

A lawyer of one of the defendants given a death sentence said the verdict was political.

"There is nothing to say these people did anything and we don't understand what this verdict is based on," Mohammed al-Daw told The Associated Press by telephone.

"Our situation in Port Said is very grave because kids were taken from their homes for wearing green T-shirts," he said, referring to the Al-Masry team color.

Nine security officials who also were on trial Saturday were acquitted, lawyers and security officials say.

Al-Daw and other defense attorneys said all those sentenced were Al-Masry fans. As is customary in Egypt, the death sentences will be sent to the nation's top religious authority, the Grand Mufti, for approval, though the court has final say on the matter

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 20:05 (thirteen years ago)

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1314071/judge-sentences-21-egyptian-soccer-fans-to-death;-riots-ensue?cc=5901

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 20:05 (thirteen years ago)

fp asks the mali/middle east question: http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/01/29/should_we_cover_mali

Mordy, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 20:36 (thirteen years ago)

Port Said voted for Ahmed Shafik in the presidential election and Morsi's Islamic Brotherhood/FJP only took 2 of its 6 parliamentary seats. Aside from the Western Desert, where the Salafist Nour party dominates, its one of the districts with the weakest support for FJP.

Until we see the Port Said protests spread to Cairo/Giza, the delta, or up the Nile, I think its a bit early to anticipate a state collapse. Now on the other hand, a sharp signal by the military across Morsi's bow? That's pretty likely.

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 00:17 (thirteen years ago)

In the capital on Monday, a mob of protesters managed to steal an armored police vehicle, drive it to Tahrir Square and make it a bonfire.

Not quite declaring independence but this is a pretty dramatic gesture.

Mordy, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 00:23 (thirteen years ago)

It's all highjinks til all the police stations are under siege, as in Port Said.

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 00:24 (thirteen years ago)

I wonder if Mubarak is nervous.

Mordy, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 00:26 (thirteen years ago)

IIRC, Mubarek suffered a severe enough stroke last year that finding his chamber pot taxes his faculties (okay, he keeps falling in his bathroom). I think political/trial outcome anxieties are the least of his daily concerns.

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 30 January 2013 00:32 (thirteen years ago)

Brahimi says Syria 'horror unprecedented' (AL-J)

Mordy, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 14:41 (thirteen years ago)

Oh shit, just saw this:

Israel attacks weapons convoy on Syria-Lebanon border, sources say
Western diplomat confirms strike in border area; according to foreign reports, 12 Israeli fighter jets penetrated Lebanese airspace for nearly 16 hours; Israeli officials have repeatedly warned this week that Syrian chemical weapons could be falling into the wrong hands.

Mordy, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 14:44 (thirteen years ago)

Haaretz is liveblogging it.

Mordy, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 14:44 (thirteen years ago)

Another Haaretz scoop: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-meshal-says-hamas-accepts-a-two-state-solution.premium-1.500390

I guess it is possible Meshaal changed his mind from a month ago:

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal vowed Gaza's rulers would never give up "an inch of the land" to Israel in an uncompromising speech before tens of thousands of cheering supporters at a triumphalist "victory" rally in Gaza City.

"Palestine is ours, from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land," he told the crowd on his first visit to Gaza. "We will never recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take."

Mordy, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 18:25 (thirteen years ago)

also, you've gotta ask - do you want NATO handling it now or Turkey and Israel handling it?

― Mordy, Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:46 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark

BREAKING NEWS3:02 PM ET
Syrian TV Says Israel Warplanes Conducted Airstrikes

Mordy, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 20:18 (thirteen years ago)

Tuareg band Tinariwen's former British manager (and writer) Andy Morgan weighs in with an opinion piece on Mali

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/01/201313094034781783.html

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 22:24 (thirteen years ago)

Haaretz: Literally the shittiest newspaper in the world

Leader of the Hamas movement Yahya Moussa said, "Some international parties want to confuse the ranks of Hamas by spreading news of their agreement to the principle of accepting a two-state solution". Moussa asserted that his movement does not accept two-state solution in any case.

The Saudi Arabia newspaper al-Sharq published a story on Wednesday saying Jordanian King Abdullah II received the authority of the President of the Political Bureau of Hamas Khaled Mashaal that the movement accepts the principle of a "two-state solution ", ahead of an initiative of U.S. President Barack Obama planned for February.
Moussa explained to "Palestine Online", that this solution is rejected categorically. "We do not accept the Israeli occupation on any atom of the soil of Palestine,", he said. Moussa stressed that historical Palestine stretches from the river to the sea. he pointed out that to accept the state of Palestine in areas occupied in 1967 does not mean to ever recognize the legitimacy of the occupation of historic Palestine.

Hamas Press Release denying Haaretz's foul allegations that they accept 2 state solution here: http://www.hamasinfo.net/ar/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2BcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2Bi1s7R8EOg3UsLehjIKz0x9Dz%2BDlF72RRPOvRQCI1JwXIaKZj86XEfmTodG9xjG4UFNoJ3NJpu8USZcffH34wQAJMXd93RfgEsLajpsO77Qp2QHI%3D

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 00:26 (thirteen years ago)

NYT: The American officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Israel had notified the United States about the attack, which the Syrian government condemned as an act of “arrogance and aggression.”

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 04:54 (thirteen years ago)

obviously not super credible, but Israel energy independence (thru fracking) is a story I've been following for a bit and Fox News ran a piece about it today:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/01/31/why-israel-will-rule-new-middle-east/#ixzz2JZ2CRMfW

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 16:54 (thirteen years ago)

Obama leaving Israel to die but it's cool because they've got fracking now. Sigh.

Gukbe, Thursday, 31 January 2013 16:57 (thirteen years ago)

these are longterm uncertain processes - i just like to feel ahead of the curve

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 16:59 (thirteen years ago)

Dubious process IMO.

Gukbe, Thursday, 31 January 2013 17:00 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.juancole.com/2013/01/backs-emergency-decree.html

Part of Juan Cole's take on Egypt:

Protesters in the three cities refused to observe the curfew the president put in place on Monday and Tuesday nights, mounting demonstrations and playing soccer in front of government buildings. As Mr. Wedeman reported, the police seem uninterested in intervening.

Although most Egyptians are indignant at being compared to Algeria, it should be a cautionary tale for Dr. Morsi, as it is for Tunisian Muslim leader Rashid Ghanoushi. In 1992-2002, some 150,000 Algerians died in a vicious civil war between secularists and fundamentalists. The same division is emerging in Egypt, and the secular and moderate-religious forces are increasingly rejecting the legitimacy of Morsi’s rule. Two competing claims to sovereignty are what make for a civil war.

Morsi created this polarization by pushing through a fundamentalist-tinged constitution and by forming a Muslim Brotherhood government that excludes his opposition, even though he did not win the presidency by a very large margin. His tendency to issue sweeping decrees and to favor his Muslim Brotherhood cadres has created a fear that he just wants to be a fundamentalist Hosni Mubarak and does not really have the instincts of a democrat.

curmudgeon, Thursday, 31 January 2013 18:23 (thirteen years ago)

I can't believe the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't have an instinct for Democracy. Shocking.

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 18:25 (thirteen years ago)

not sure how likely the Algerian scenario is here (Robert Fisk's account of which is one of the more depressing pieces I've read in recent years) given the strength and stature of the Egyptian military... but who knows at this point. The army coming down on the side of the Muslim Brotherhood seems unlikely, and I don't have the impression that the Muslim Brotherhood has recourse to the necessary firepower that would engender something similar to the Algerian civil war...?

Welcome to my world of proses (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 31 January 2013 18:27 (thirteen years ago)

Later on Thursday, Syria complained to the UN over the Israeli strike.

Although Israel and Syria are technically still at war, the ministry's official complaint evoked a 1974 disengagement agreement between the neighbours, state news agency SANA said.

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has summoned Iqbal Singha, commander of the UN Observer Disengagement Observer Force... and informed him of an official protest over the Israeli violation of the disengagement agreement of 1974," the ministry said.

The ministry said Israel "and the states that protect it at the UN Security Council" are responsible for the air strike, and "affirms Syria's right to defend itself and its territory and sovereignty".

The ministry called on "all the competent UN bodies to take the necessary steps given this grave Israeli violation, and to guarantee that it will not happen again."

The ministry denounced "the failure of the Security Council to take responsibility to prevent this grave Israeli attack, which poses serious threats to stability in the Middle East and security in the world".

plz UN censor Israel for breaching the disengagement agreement

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 19:53 (thirteen years ago)

oh plz

the late great, Thursday, 31 January 2013 20:00 (thirteen years ago)

censure

max, Thursday, 31 January 2013 21:44 (thirteen years ago)

thx

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 21:48 (thirteen years ago)

this is super interesting article about television watching habits in lebanon:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/01/31/boob_tube_lebanon_hezbollah

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 23:12 (thirteen years ago)

boob_tube_lebanon_hezbollah

every soulless meta poster is a ✰ (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Thursday, 31 January 2013 23:14 (thirteen years ago)

Some good quotes:

"Oh, look," laughed Hassan. "There's Obama, the president of the world!"
"Do you really think he runs the world?" asked my friend.
"Remove Iran, Hezbollah, China, and Russia, and he's the president of the world," remarked Hassan. "Outside of those four, America de facto controls the world with its policies because America has agents working in every Arab country."

"Bashar al-Assad has never been more comfortable, and the Syrian army has yet to deploy more than 10 to 20 percent of its troops against the rebels," he lectured. "The FSA does an operation with 100 men and 99 are killed. One comes back and goes on Al Jazeera and calls it a massacre [of civilians]. Al Arabiya and Al Jazeera are playing the biggest role in this war by playing to everyone's sensibilities."

"If Bashar promised to turn his back on Hezbollah and Iran and let Israel keep the Golan Heights, this war would be over in a day," Hassan continued. "I think you will see big changes this year as Syria, America, Russia, and Israel come together to fight the rebels because they're al Qaeda terrorists. Syria will end up the most powerful country in the Arab world, and Bashar will stay in power."

I asked Hassan whether he trusted the Syrian regime.

"Now I do," Hassan admitted. "But before the revolution I did not. [Bashar al-Assad] made many mistakes at first -- he was oppressive and handled it badly -- but he fixed these mistakes. Now he's OK with opposition; he just wants a clean opposition. And now everyone in Syria is talking about reconciliation between the rebels and the regime. This war is almost over."

I assume the last point is a reference to Moaz al-Khatib calling for talks w/ the regime, tho apparently his coalition disagrees:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-30/syria-opposition-leader-calls-for-meeting-after-rift-over-talks.html

Mordy, Thursday, 31 January 2013 23:25 (thirteen years ago)

Crazy story from Azzaman (summary from JPost):

Iraqi daily Azzaman quoted a Western diplomatic source as saying Thursday that the alleged Israeli attack on Syria reported on Wednesday caused heavy casualties among special Iranian Guards stationed at the Syrian facility. The source also said that the attack took place more than 48 hours before it was reported, eventually being leaked by Israel.

The source for the story, who was interviewed by the paper in London, said that the report about a strike on a convoy to Lebanon was probably meant to divert attention away from the main objective of the operation, which used F-16 aircraft to fire at least eight guided missiles at the facility.

The source also said that the base was heavily fortified and contained experts from Russia and at least three thousand Iranian Revolutionary Guards, who have been guarding the site for years. Many of these Iranian Guards suffered casualties.

Israel most likely got its intelligence, said the source, from penetrating deep inside Iran and from other operations meant to penetrate Hezbollah.

Mordy, Friday, 1 February 2013 02:03 (thirteen years ago)

Not sure you should replace your Haaretz subscription:

In 2005, Azzaman lost a libel lawsuit, and issued strong retractions of its previous allegations against Mozah bint Nasser Al Missned. It emerged during the trial that the paper had accepted money from Saudi authorities to do propaganda and intelligence work for the Saudi government.

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Friday, 1 February 2013 04:53 (thirteen years ago)

lol

every soulless meta poster is a ✰ (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Friday, 1 February 2013 04:55 (thirteen years ago)

I figure one middle east newspaper w/ a's and z's is as good at making up what's going on as the next.

Mordy, Friday, 1 February 2013 13:30 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/world/europe/2-dead-in-suicide-bombing-at-us-embassy-in-turkey.html

The identity and motives of the bomber were not immediately clear, but Turkish news media said preliminary investigations by security officials said the bomber may have panicked while going through security controls at the embassy entrance and detonated a suicide belt. Mr. Yuksel said the other fatality in the blast was a security employee.

I wonder if it's spillover from Syria....

Mordy, Friday, 1 February 2013 15:21 (thirteen years ago)

WSJ says:

Kurdish separatists, Islamist militants—including al Qaeda—and groups on the far left and right have carried out bomb attacks in Turkey, and there was no immediate claim of responsibility for the blast. Suspicions, however, are likely to fall on ethnic Kurdish militants, who recently have come under pressure from the Turkish military.

"Apparently there were two suicide-bomber militants inside the vehicle. Of course, they are now in pieces, as is the vehicle," Mr. Sahin said. told reporters in the western Turkish city of Izmir. "We saw that the terrorist organization has not stopped, that it is continuing to conduct unexpected, crazy incidents."

Mordy, Friday, 1 February 2013 15:23 (thirteen years ago)

Worthwhile resource: Washington think-tank The Institute for the Study of War is chock full of 3 star generals and future NYT journalists, and puts out some very detailed backgrounders summarizing the situation on the ground in the Middle East. Can't discern their political slant, aside from a technical arguments about proper manpower levels for an Afghanistan assistance force (its > 0).

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Friday, 1 February 2013 16:48 (thirteen years ago)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-protesters-police-clash-morsis-palace-18376370

Thousands of protesters denouncing Egypt's Islamist president marched on his palace in Cairo on Friday, clashing with security forces firing tear gas and water cannons in the eighth day of the country's wave of political violence.

Protests were held in cities around the country on Friday after a call for rallies by opponents of President Mohammed Morsi. But some cracks appeared in the ranks of the opposition as some sharply criticized its political leaders for holding their first meeting with the rival Muslim Brotherhood a day earlier.

Around 60 people have been killed in protests, rioting and clashes that engulfed the country the past week in country's worst crisis since the 2011 fall of autocrat Hosni Mubarak.

Mordy, Friday, 1 February 2013 19:48 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/01/us-mali-rebels-idUSBRE9100OS20130201

Reuters) - A French-led offensive against Islamists in Mali has led to civilian deaths from air strikes and ethnic reprisals by Malian troops, human rights groups said on Friday, a day before President Francois Hollande was due to visit the country.

curmudgeon, Friday, 1 February 2013 21:09 (thirteen years ago)

I was reading that there were accusations against the Malian army for waterboarding

Mordy, Friday, 1 February 2013 21:20 (thirteen years ago)

Meet the new boss same as the etc etc

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/01/video_morsi_police_strip_beat_drag_protester/

Gukbe, Friday, 1 February 2013 22:36 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2013/02/A/48744

It's a teaser and in French about the effects of the drug trade on Mali's military

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 1 February 2013 23:50 (thirteen years ago)

oh shit time magazine broke a story:

Israeli warplanes struck several targets inside Syria overnight Tuesday, including a biological weapons research center that was reportedly flattened out of concern that it might fall into the hands of Islamist extremists fighting to topple the government of Syrian president Bashar Assad, Western intelligence officials tell TIME.

So far only two airstrikes have been publicly reported, amid a flurry of conflicting initial reports. Syria officially complained of the destruction of the Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus. And a variety of news organizations reported that Israeli jets hit a convoy carrying advanced anti-aircraft defense systems toward Lebanon’s Bakaa Valley, presumably for delivery to Hizballah, the militant Shi’ite group closely allied with the Assad regime. If they had been deployed, those SA-17 ground-to-air missiles would intimidated Israeli pilots who now operate over Lebanese airspace with impunity, forcing them to higher altitudes and other operational precautions.

A Western intelligence official indicated to TIME that at least one to two additional targets were hit the same night, without offering details. Officials also said that Israel had a “green light” from Washington to launch yet more such strikes.

Mordy, Saturday, 2 February 2013 03:11 (thirteen years ago)

Does anyone know if the DHKP/C has organizational/political ties to other Marxist groups/countries (eg. China, Cuba, CPI(M)), and what its relationship is to TKP/ML? Surely Sanpaku has some further reading.

Mordy, Saturday, 2 February 2013 23:25 (thirteen years ago)

During the previous month, Turkish police made more than 80 arrests in raids targeting the group.

Among those detained were students, lawyers, reporters and even members of a pop group who were thought to have links with the DHKP-C.

I want to listen to this pop group.

Mordy, Saturday, 2 February 2013 23:32 (thirteen years ago)

Oh cool, they're on spotify: http://open.spotify.com/artist/4FjxqqOXKI1eGLrYn3GUq4

Mordy, Saturday, 2 February 2013 23:34 (thirteen years ago)

I know next to nothing about the DHKP. Sounds a bit like one of many, many communist splinter parties in Iran, some of which are self-styled Shining Path like Maoist guerillas, some likely recipients of CIA regime change funding (enemy of my enemy etc.). I do remember the two Iranian communist militias in this 1987 paper wargame being the weakest units (out of 1000+) in the series.

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Sunday, 3 February 2013 02:29 (thirteen years ago)

The game situation is that the Iranian army revolt has occured with the IRG committed to the Pact & the Army to Nato. Saudi's have committed to Nato also but that is largely meaningless at the mo. The RDF has not yet been alerted but the Israeli Intervention force has been recieved. According to my understanding of the rules the Israeli paras can't appear as they arrive either via air or naval transport & NATO can't use these pre-RDF alert. However the Israeli Air unit is available for use & can be used in Iran - is this the case & if not could you tell me the rules section which prohibits this.

Mordy, Sunday, 3 February 2013 02:32 (thirteen years ago)

I never played a complete game of the Third World War series, but started one with my best HS buddy that occupied 3 4x6 folding tables and got through the first few weeks of the main Warsaw Pact/NATO confrontation. Like all post Avalon Hill wargames, 90% of the time is spent deciphering the rules and sorting cardboard counters, 10% is actually rolling dice and looking up the results on multiple tables. Today we live in a better world.

Surfing has yielded the Family Tree of the Turkish Radical Left 1918-2001. According to it, branch that became the DHKP/C last shared a common leadership with the branch that became the TKP/ML in mid-1970, when the Devrimci Genclik splintered.

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Sunday, 3 February 2013 02:48 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Sunday, 3 February 2013 02:53 (thirteen years ago)

Wow, look at that graph.

Mordy, Sunday, 3 February 2013 02:53 (thirteen years ago)

Rial hits all time low.

Mordy, Sunday, 3 February 2013 18:50 (thirteen years ago)

sing the security zone maintained by Israel in Southern Lebanon during 1985-2000 as an example, the IDF has recommended to Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to establish a 16km (10 mile) wide security zone between Syria and Israel to keep the civil war away from Israel’s northern border. During those years, IDF troops along with the Israel allied Southern Lebanese Army patrolled the security zone.

The daily Maariv quotes “a source close to the plan’s architects” as saying “We recommended this comprehensive plan to protect Israel’s border to the prime minister, to be implemented after or perhaps prior to the collapse of the Assad administration.”

The source explains the heart of the plan calls for the establishment of the security zone in cooperation with villagers in area communities inside Syria. “If Syria remains unstable, perhaps we will be compelled to remain there for years”, the source is quoted as adding.

also fyi http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2013/02/04/264225.html

Mordy, Monday, 4 February 2013 01:07 (thirteen years ago)

The security zone in Southern Lebanon also resulted in the birth of Hezbollah and the area becoming inhospitable to the Maronite and other Christians that manned the SLA.

Syria really is a redux of the 15 year Lebanese Civil War in many ways. The world will keep Robert Fisk busy til the day he dies.

with perhaps the exception of r-r-r-r-rhythm (Sanpaku), Monday, 4 February 2013 02:22 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline//2013/02/irans-new-qaher-313-stealth-fi.html

Mordy, Monday, 4 February 2013 12:07 (thirteen years ago)

lol assad-washing: http://electronicintifada.net/content/pointing-syria-divert-attention-israels-crimes/11192

Mordy, Tuesday, 5 February 2013 15:25 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/02/ahmadinejad-show-video-cairo/61826/

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 February 2013 00:40 (thirteen years ago)

The trip has not been a good look for Morsi, either, who picked an odd time to play to host to Ahmadinejad and Iran. As Max Fisher at The Washington Post points out, secularists and liberals are already furious with Morsi for allowing his religious Muslim Brotherhood party to take over the revolution, while the mostly Sunni and Salafist parties are appalled at the idea of buddying up to Iran. With protesters spending most of the last two weeks camped outside his house with Molotov cocktails, inviting the most hated guy in the neighborhood to stop by may not have been Morsi's best political move.

If you're in a conspiratorial mood Morsi's reasons for bringing Ahmadinejad in are more comprehensible.

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 February 2013 00:41 (thirteen years ago)

profile of hasbara/media watch dogs:
http://www.jpost.com/ArtsAndCulture/Arts/Article.aspx?id=302316

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 February 2013 19:42 (thirteen years ago)

The 56-member Organization of Islamic Conference, the largest Muslim organization in the world, should have a seat on the UN Security Council, said Prof. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, its secretary-general.

“One of the important objectives for which I have been exerting a lot of efforts was to have a seat for OIC in the Security Council to represent 1.5 billion Muslims in the world,” Ihsanoglu told reporters in Cairo.

Speaking about the challenges facing the Islamic Ummah, he said they include poverty, lack of economic integration, Jewish settlement in occupied Arab territories, and Judaization of Jerusalem (Al-Quds).

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 February 2013 22:31 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/06/world/europe/bulgaria-implicates-hezbollah-in-deadly-israeli-bus-blast.html

There’s the overall fear if we’re too noisy about this, Hezbollah might strike again, and it might not be Israeli tourists this time,” said Sylke Tempel, editor in chief of the German foreign affairs magazine Internationale Politik.

Mordy, Thursday, 7 February 2013 03:11 (thirteen years ago)

Not political, but pretty amazing.

The Burj Khalifa Pinnacle Panorama (2.8 GIGApixels!)

UAE / Dubai based ALPA photographer Gerald Donovan created this stunning 360 degree panoramic view from the very top of the tallest building on earth, Dubai's Burj Khalifa.

Gerald was equipped with the ALPA 12 FPS camera and shutter module, the Rodenstock/ALPA HR Alpagon 4.0/50 mm SB34 Lens with a high end digital back, mounted on the Seitz / Roundshot VR Drive.

The image is composed from over 70 individual photos, a series of 48 panoramic images, each shot at a resolution of 80 megapixels. These were then stitched together with manually shot images to 'fill-in' gaps caused by equipment installed at the top of the tower such as the lightning conductor and aircraft beacons. The result is an image that can be zoomed, tilted and rotated, giving viewers a sense of how it must feel to sit atop the world's highest building.

The image has been released to celebrate the second Hamdan Bin Mohammed Bin Rashid Al Maktoum Photography Award (HIPA), which will take place in Dubai in March.

Please avoid exposing bare fleshy under curves of the buttock crack (Sanpaku), Thursday, 7 February 2013 04:36 (thirteen years ago)

wow! that is amazing

Mordy, Thursday, 7 February 2013 04:49 (thirteen years ago)

it barely looks real

http://i47.tinypic.com/33l06dz.png

Mordy, Thursday, 7 February 2013 04:50 (thirteen years ago)

amid a lot of mostly useless writing about hezbollah and the EU, this is probably the most comprehensive piece i've read:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/02/06/europe_s_hezbollah_problem_bulgaria_bombing

Mordy, Thursday, 7 February 2013 04:58 (thirteen years ago)

new iran sanctions:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/world/middleeast/us-ratchets-up-an-economic-war-against-tehran.html

Mordy, Thursday, 7 February 2013 15:42 (thirteen years ago)

shafer on iran sanctions (tbh i think he's a better media critic than a foreign policy critic): http://blogs.reuters.com/jackshafer/2013/02/08/the-theater-of-economic-sanctions

i thought about buying this shirt down in nola but cooler heads prevailed:

http://www.dirtycoast.com/uploads/large/Westbank-Design-1347384824.jpg

Mordy, Friday, 8 February 2013 16:56 (thirteen years ago)

wow! that is amazing

^^^^

Welcome to my world of proses (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 8 February 2013 17:03 (thirteen years ago)

eh I can nominate anyone I want for the peace prize, re. "University rectors; professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology; directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes"

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/nomination/

Euler, Friday, 8 February 2013 19:21 (thirteen years ago)

should I nominate an ilxor?

Euler, Friday, 8 February 2013 19:22 (thirteen years ago)

nominate yourself obv

the late great, Friday, 8 February 2013 19:23 (thirteen years ago)

Her name was put forward by three members of the Norwegian parliament from the ruling Labor Party on their website Friday, which was the deadline for nominations.

Malala’s name was put forward because of “her courageous commitment to the right of girls to education. A commitment that seemed so threatening to the extremists that they chose to try and kill her,” said parliamentarian Freddy de Ruiter on the Labor party web site. […]

The Norwegian MPs said they believed that Malala was “a worthy winner for many reasons. She has become an important symbol in the fight against destructive forces that want to prevent democracy, equality and human rights.”

She was also reportedly nominated by members of parliament in France, Spain and Canada.

Mordy, Friday, 8 February 2013 19:23 (thirteen years ago)

Mordy's name was put forward by one member of www.ilxor.com on its website Friday, which was the deadline for nominations.

Mordy's name was put forward because of “his courageous commitment to the right of posters to zings. A commitment that seemed so threatening to the extremists that they chose to try and kill her,” said poster […]

Euler, Friday, 8 February 2013 19:25 (thirteen years ago)

I am honored.

Mordy, Friday, 8 February 2013 19:26 (thirteen years ago)

Damascus on Edge as War Seeps into Syrian Capital
By an employee of THE NEW YORK TIMES in DAMASCUS SYRIA and ANNE BARNARD

Mordy, Monday, 11 February 2013 02:59 (thirteen years ago)

Not political, but pretty amazing.

The Burj Khalifa Pinnacle Panorama (2.8 GIGApixels!)

― Please avoid exposing bare fleshy under curves of the buttock crack (Sanpaku), Thursday, February 7, 2013 12:36 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it is somehow nicest just to look at the sky in this imo

schlump, Monday, 11 February 2013 04:14 (thirteen years ago)

xp: The war has rended Damascus neighborhoods for several months now. This presentation, reportedly based on SAA reports captured by the FSA, maps the areas of Damascus controlled by SAA and FSA in early December.

Sanpaku, Monday, 11 February 2013 04:44 (thirteen years ago)

i'm wondering who's the unnamed employee of the NYT in damascus

Mordy, Monday, 11 February 2013 04:46 (thirteen years ago)

barnard has been reporting from beirut so it makes sense that they'd try to put someone on the ground in damascus. this makes me think they recruited someone local tho who needed their identity protected? i tried to figure out who contributed what in the story but i got distracted midway through.

Mordy, Monday, 11 February 2013 04:48 (thirteen years ago)

good article about big Qatari investment in new Palestinian neighborhood designed for middle class residency:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/02/a-middle-class-paradise-in-palestine/273004/

Mordy, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 14:17 (thirteen years ago)

i thought that was good:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/02/12/on_military_wing_prayer_hezbollah_europe_bulgaria

esp the part breaking down the hierarchy + leadership of hezbollah in detail

Mordy, Wednesday, 13 February 2013 00:17 (thirteen years ago)

A good indicator of how committed a government is to upholding peace with its neighbors is its commitment to protecting the human rights of its own citizens.  Nations that disregard the freedoms of their own people are not likely to care much about maintaining peace with their historic enemies. Palestinian human rights, in other words, are key to the peace process.

Very unusual sentiment to see in the NYT! http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/opinion/palestines-democratic-deficit.html

Author is a Natan Sharansky disciple.

Mordy, Wednesday, 13 February 2013 02:09 (thirteen years ago)

this story's really sad: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/02/08/israeli-soccer-teams-office-set-on-fire-as-tensions-rise-after-signing-of-muslim-players/

running like a young deer (symsymsym), Wednesday, 13 February 2013 06:30 (thirteen years ago)

this is getting posted a lot on my fb feed. she's not as cool + restrained as i'd like, but essentially she's right re non-existence of demographic time bomb and unimportance of settlements to either peace process or future of israel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxfWZqfVEys

Mordy, Thursday, 14 February 2013 04:20 (thirteen years ago)

WRT demographics, she's absolutely right. Palestinian Arabs are midway through their demographic transition towards birthrates near those of secular Israelis (3-ish), while ultraorthodox Jews have 6+ children per woman. Stand on Zanzibar here we come. Extrapolate only a couple generations and the growth will result in enormous strains on water and land that I suspect will make Israelis seriously question their open-arms policy towards Jewish immigration.

As an aside, there are a lot of nations in the Mideast that are racing towards resource cliffs with their population policies. There's only so much fossil water to mine, and in the long run, only so much fossil energy to desalinize water. Yemen's aquifers are running dry and its lower classes going hungry already - quite the tinderbox that'll be in a couple years (Gaza x 15).

I find her other argument re: settlements to be weak sauce. Israel didn't have any settlements in the Egyptian Sinai, nor east of the Jordan, prior to those peace agreements. Jordan has viable internal communications without its former West Bank, and had extremely strong inducements from U.S. aid to come to the negotiating table.

Were there a democratic state comprising all territories seized by Israel in the Six Day war tomorrow, it would be on pretty solid legal ground (4th Geneva Art. 49) in annulling occupation-era eminent domain land seizures and property title grants to settlements. Lastly, the use of the term "ethic cleansing" is pretty galling to anyone familiar with the '48 Nakba or post-'67 land seizures.

So, more jawboning while facts on the ground are being created by bulldozer and construction crew. Its worked for 45 years, why stop.

Sanpaku, Thursday, 14 February 2013 06:40 (thirteen years ago)

NASA Satellites Find Freshwater Losses in Middle East
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/earth/grace/20130212/grace20130212-640.jpg

"GRACE data show an alarming rate of decrease in total water storage in the Tigris and Euphrates river basins, which currently have the second fastest rate of groundwater storage loss on Earth, after India," said Jay Famiglietti, principal investigator of the study and a hydrologist and professor at UC Irvine. "The rate was especially striking after the 2007 drought. Meanwhile, demand for freshwater continues to rise, and the region does not coordinate its water management because of different interpretations of international laws."

Sanpaku, Saturday, 16 February 2013 05:21 (thirteen years ago)

Off topic, but the Grace gravity anomaly data viewer is totally fascinating. You can watch as the southern half of Greenland loses 50 cm of water due to glacial melt from 2007 to 2011. The Tigris-Euphrates basin by comparison has lost 12-16 cm of water during the same interval and India's Gangetic plain swings wildly from -22 cm (compared to 03-07 avg) to +16 cm with the annual monsoon.

Sanpaku, Saturday, 16 February 2013 05:50 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/02/counting-the-dead-in-syria/273199/

Mordy, Sunday, 17 February 2013 18:27 (thirteen years ago)

i keep seeing rumors that 1,000 hezbollah troops are on the ground in syria

Mordy, Monday, 18 February 2013 15:14 (thirteen years ago)

also israel doing business w/ turkey again for the first time since the flotilla incident:
http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=303650

Mordy, Monday, 18 February 2013 15:18 (thirteen years ago)

Chance for possible change in Bahrain?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jackson-diehl-bahrains-chance-for-compromise/2013/02/17/44a02ff6-76cc-11e2-aa12-e6cf1d31106b_story.html?hpid=z6

curmudgeon, Monday, 18 February 2013 15:55 (thirteen years ago)

NPR had a big bit about Bahrain on Thursday morning but I checked into it in the middle and didn't immediately realize they were talking about Bahrain. They were interviewing protestors and discussing the possible collapse of the government and for about 15 minutes (until they mentioned that the current regime has been in power for over 10 years) I was positive I was listening to a report on Egypt.

Mordy, Monday, 18 February 2013 16:37 (thirteen years ago)

what is the lobby that keeps wanting to revive this question? it's gotta primarily be arms dealers that want a new market right? surely no one else thinks arming rebels is a good idea: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/19/world/middleeast/as-assad-holds-firm-obama-could-revisit-arms-policy.html

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 04:37 (thirteen years ago)

The debate over Syria is not limited to the United States. On Monday, European Union foreign ministers decided against easing an arms moratorium despite objections by Britain. In what appeared to be a compromise, the ministers agreed to “provide greater nonlethal support and technical assistance for the protection of civilians,” according to the European Union’s Web site.

oh englandpaws

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 04:39 (thirteen years ago)

“The odds are very high that, for better or worse, armed men will determine Syria’s course for the foreseeable future,” said Frederic C. Hof, a former senior State Department official and a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. “For the U.S. not to have close, supportive relationships with armed elements, carefully vetted, is very risky.”

this is the too clever by half bullshit that always blows up in U.S. faces

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 04:42 (thirteen years ago)

probably the only important line in the article:

Secretary of State John Kerry has said that he plans to advance ideas on how to change the situation on his first trip later this month, ideas that appear to include eliciting more cooperation from the Kremlin.

policy is staying the same

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 04:44 (thirteen years ago)

hillary, panetta, and petraeus were the heavy pushers for more direct involvement in syria right? even if their replacements felt the same (obv not w/ hagel, probably not w/ kerry based on that pullquote, and lol at brennan being that guy) it's hard to imagine obama suddenly being swayed.

balls, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 04:57 (thirteen years ago)

"I am assured he was not Mossad, but he knew stuff, he mixed with the wrong people," said the Australian source. "It was a fuck up. He was not posing any threat to the state of Israel."

The Israeli source concurred, saying Zygier was "a little cog in the system, if at all."

"The guy is a victim of his own fault," he said. "[Zygier] convinced everyone he was working for Mossad. It’s all a creation; he didn’t stop speaking."

He added, "Israel does not recruit someone who says he’s in Mossad. If someone says he’s Mossad he’d be fired."

holy shit haaretz's source is burn after reading

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 05:50 (thirteen years ago)

good jpg: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/congressional-travel/index.html

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 13:54 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/al-jazeera-criticized-for-lack-of-independence-after-arab-spring-a-883343.html

One and a half years ago, Suliman, 42, re-set his watch to German time, having become disenchanted with Al-Jazeera. And it wasn't just because the broadcaster seemed less interested in reports from Europe. Rather, Suliman had the feeling that he was no longer being allowed to work as an independent journalist.

Last August, he quit his job. "Before the beginning of the Arab Spring, we were a voice for change," he says, "a platform for critics and political activists throughout the region. Now, Al-Jazeera has become a propaganda broadcaster."

Suliman is not the only one who feels bitterly disappointed. The Arab TV network has recently suffered an exodus of prominent staff members. Reporters and anchors in cities like Paris, London, Moscow, Beirut and Cairo have left Al-Jazeera, despite what are seen as luxurious working conditions in centrally located offices. And despite the fact that the network is investing an estimated $500 million (€375 million) in the US, so as to reach even more viewers on the world's largest television market -- one in which its biggest competitor, CNN, is at home.

Al-Jazeera has over 3,000 staff members and 65 correspondent offices worldwide -- and viewers in some 50 million households throughout the Arab world. But it also has a problem: More than ever before, critics contend that the broadcaster is following a clear political agenda, and not adhering to the principles of journalistic independence.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 14:39 (thirteen years ago)

it's gotta primarily be arms dealers that want a new market right? surely no one else thinks arming rebels is a good idea

Some people (from multiple spots on the political spectrum) do think its a chance worth taking in Syria

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:19 (thirteen years ago)

imho giving al-qaeada american-made weapons is a mistake we should've already learned to avoid

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:28 (thirteen years ago)

Some folks only want to give weapons to the non-Al Queda rebels there and believe it is possible to give it to them alone. Not having done so early also just allowed the Al Queda ones to get a bigger foothold

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:40 (thirteen years ago)

With little international aid reaching Syria's besieged population, Islamist militants such as the Al Qaeda-linked group Jabhat Al Nusra are building support by providing food and other items in scant supply after two years of civil war

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/syrias-al-qaeda-linked-militants-win-hearts-by-providing-food

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 17:02 (thirteen years ago)

The international community afaik has been diverting non-weapon aid into Syria. If that aid isn't reaching the population I imagine it's not for lack of effort. And I don't know how you can possibly give weapons to only the non-Al Qaeada rebels and guarantee that they don't get passed around.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 17:15 (thirteen years ago)

Given that more secular militias of the FSA and Al Nusra have been murdering each other for months now, I'm pretty sure that someone with good ground-level intelligence on the factions (ie, not the CIA) could direct aid somewhat wisely. Problem is Al Nusra fighters, given a wealth of experience from Chechnya and Iraq, are far more effective than most FSA militias. Perusing liveleak or apacheclips one gets the impression that most FSA militias are suicidally inept. Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia had its share of those, but most were killed before joining Al Nusra, leaving a cadre that's gotten pretty good at insurgency.

A few small arms (the US could conceivably offer AKs, RPGs, and most importantly secure communications devices) won't change that equation between a children's crusade and some wizened old-hands much.

Sanpaku, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 20:26 (thirteen years ago)

Mordy I'm disappointed you didn't post about Bibi's ice cream scandal

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 20:29 (thirteen years ago)

I also don't think there's any reason to believe that toppling Assad quicker would resolve the crisis. I have read a lot of compelling arguments that Syria is not in a transition phase but a dissolution phase and the next step after Assad's removal might be fracturing along traditional tribal/religious/ethnic grounds and potentially far more violence and displacement than we've already seen. I can't figure out what the United States stands to gain from promoting the rebels - except maybe to try to earn points w/ SA + Qatar?

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 20:34 (thirteen years ago)

There is a theory that toppling Assad will isolate Hezbollah even further and remove one of Iran's last friends. I'm just not sure that giving the rebels free reign over Syria is necessarily worth the little strategic benefit you may get w/ Iran.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 20:35 (thirteen years ago)

Alawi genocide would be on the cards.

Gukbe, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 21:52 (thirteen years ago)

cant hate on bibi for liking a good pistachio ice cream

max, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 22:08 (thirteen years ago)

IRANIAN President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has warned that he could scrap this year's presidential election, threatening to drag the Islamic Republic into a constitutional crisis as he attempts to retain power.

With months to go until Iranians vote for his successor in June, Mr Ahmadinejad has reignited his bitter power struggle with Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 February 2013 15:45 (thirteen years ago)

Reconnaissance soldiers from the the IDF’s Engineering Corps recently completed an intensive series of subterranean warfare drills to prepare them for a potential clash with Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah has placed its command and control centers in underground bunkers, and dug a maze of tunnels where commanders, fighters and weaponry can be placed out of sight of the Israel Air Force.

Soldiers from the reconnaissance platoon of the Assaf Engineering Brigade underwent month-long exercises simulating complex terrain fighting, much of which involved dense forests. A week of training was dedicated to combat in tunnels.

tunnel warfare seems particularly terrifying to imagine - maybe bc i'm a little claustrophobic. i can't imagine anything scarier than going into hezbollah tunnels.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 February 2013 16:01 (thirteen years ago)

crazy stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat

goole, Wednesday, 20 February 2013 16:42 (thirteen years ago)

Berende admitted in his interrogation to traveling to Iran on several occasions, in order to meet with Iranians known for their involvement in a worldwide terror network.

The last time he met with his Iranian handlers was in Dubai in April of 2012. In that meeting, he was requested to collect information on ZIM offices and on the Chabad house in Lagos.

The Iranian handlers directed Berende to use code names in all his communications with them. He was requested to use the word "uncle" to denote Israeli targets and the word "aunt" for American ones. He was also directed to establish a small business in Lagos that he would use as a front for the operations.

Mordy, Thursday, 21 February 2013 01:18 (thirteen years ago)

Accounts of tunnel warfare from Vietnam will surprise the reader. One expects there to be a short range ambush around every corner, but in reality by the time Americans got to the tunnel complexes the NVA main forces generally had retreated leaving behind the wounded and camp hangars-on. And there is a strange sort of advantage to the side playing offence in tunnel warfare (as in mopping up trenches and room to room fighting). The side playing offence knows the moment of its charge and always tosses a grenade to stun anyone waiting behind blind corners - the side playing defense doesn't know the timing and doesn't have a standoff distance to get in shots. Or you can just pump in gas. Gasoline will work fine too. Suffocating the enemy in flames is fair play, these days.

Sanpaku, Thursday, 21 February 2013 04:30 (thirteen years ago)

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2013/02/22/267633.html

Free Syria rebels threaten to attack Lebanon if Hezbollah keeps sticking their nose in the war.

Mordy, Friday, 22 February 2013 15:13 (thirteen years ago)

this week's NYer piece on Hezbollah (behind paywall, sorry) is A+: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/02/25/130225fa_fact_filkins

Mordy, Saturday, 23 February 2013 23:18 (thirteen years ago)

According to the report on the Sawt Beirut International website, Nasrallah’s condition recently deteriorated and he was evacuated to Tehran by an airplane sent on behalf of the Islamic Republic and which took off from the Rafiq al-Hariri International Airport in Beirut.

The report, however, has not been confirmed by any other source and its reliability is unclear.

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 02:58 (thirteen years ago)

UN: Staffer to peacekeeping force in Golan missing
A staff member of UN peacekeeping force in demilitarized Golan Heights between Syria, Israel "not accounted for."

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 03:38 (thirteen years ago)

It remarkable how many Nasrallah GIS results have him with an index finger skyward.

Thought this was cute:

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2009/12/24/hassan_nasrallah_lebanon.jpg

But as we all know, beards were invented to hide double chins and bad diets.

Sanpaku, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 05:01 (thirteen years ago)

front page NYT article about SA diverting Croatian weapons into Syria

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 05:03 (thirteen years ago)

"Swiss made hand-grenades"

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1489/smfragmentationtechnolonj0.jpg
The HG 85, probably photographed between Hublot and Girard-Perregaux watch sessions.

Sanpaku, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 05:14 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/27/world/middleeast/rocket-from-gaza-hits-israel-breaking-cease-fire.html

that was nice while it lasted

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 14:40 (thirteen years ago)

talking about nigeria here would be serious thread creep however due to current situations in libya/mali, new US base in nigeria, four hezbollah terrorists arrested last week planning attack on chabad in lagos and now this, i think this is a good place to report:

FRENCH GOVERNMENT SAYS SEVEN OF ITS NATIONALS, INCLUDING FOUR CHILDREN, ARE BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY NIGERIAN GROUP BOKO HARAM

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 16:15 (thirteen years ago)

There's a new US base in Niger; is there also a new one in Nigeria?

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 16:49 (thirteen years ago)

oh, you're right. my bad.

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 16:54 (thirteen years ago)

Western NGOs' safeguards, while understandable, also place them at a disadvantage in winning the hearts and minds of Syrians. Mahmoud agreed with recent reports that the al Qaeda affiliated group Jabhat al-Nusra is gaining support through its aid work.

"I am completely against Jabhat al-Nusra, but I have to tell the truth about what is going on," Mahmoud said. "If you go now to any village that is under the control of Jabhat al-Nusra you can find the bread there very cheap. If you go to any village that is close to the one under the control of Jabhat al-Nusra, the bread is very expensive."

"I think this is what makes people sympathize with [Jabhat al-Nusra] or at least respect them. How does al Qaeda have all this money, tell me?" he said.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/02/26/give_me_shelter_aid_syria

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 17:06 (thirteen years ago)

The CIA drone base in Niger (likely just off the tarmac in Agadez and sort of a twin to the basing in Djibouti. US Special Forces (probably 3rd Special Forces Group from Fort Bragg) have been sent to Niger, Nigeria, Burkina Faso, Senegal, Togo and Ghana. Probably spread thin as covert air controllers ready to assist locals. While Predators and Reapers can loiter over Yemen from Djibouti, Nigeria from Agadez is a bit of a reach.

Sanpaku, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 17:20 (thirteen years ago)

Oops, I'm wrong there. Agadez is just perfect for drone ops against either Mali or Nigeria.

Sanpaku, Tuesday, 26 February 2013 17:22 (thirteen years ago)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lULMLM087D4/US4QyH3hJvI/AAAAAAAAWR4/_ikHq5uC84Q/s1600/arak1.jpg

Mordy, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 14:26 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/the-arab-revolutions--dangerous-turn-by-joschka-fischer

Mordy, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:12 (thirteen years ago)

Mordy, you're highlighting the zeppelin? Those have been used for persistent wide-area surveillance of Somalian piracy for a few years.

Sanpaku, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 18:31 (thirteen years ago)

that's not a zeppelin! it's steam from heavy-water production at arak!

Because they do not require uranium enrichment, heavy water reactors are of concern in regards to nuclear proliferation. The breeding and extraction of plutonium can be a relatively rapid and cheap route to building a nuclear weapon, as chemical separation of plutonium from fuel is easier than isotopic separation of U-235 from natural uranium.

...Due to its potential for use in nuclear weapons programs, the possession or import/export of large industrial quantities of heavy water are subject to government control in several countries. Suppliers of heavy water and heavy water production technology typically apply IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) administered safeguards and material accounting to heavy water.

Mordy, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 18:35 (thirteen years ago)

Sorry, thought that was an update on US Africa basing.

Hmm. That's not a lot of steam. A 40 ft column judging by the shadow. A ton of steam for every liter of heavy water. Guess they're going the CANDU route.

Sanpaku, Wednesday, 27 February 2013 19:21 (thirteen years ago)

WASHINGTON — The United States is significantly stepping up its support for the Syrian opposition, senior administration officials said on Wednesday, helping to train rebels at a base in the region and for the first time offering armed groups nonlethal assistance and equipment that could help their military campaign.

The training mission, already under way, represents the deepest American involvement yet in the Syrian conflict, though the size and scope of the mission is not clear, nor is its host country. The offer of nonlethal assistance is expected to come from Secretary of State John Kerry at a meeting on Thursday in Rome with opposition leaders. Mr. Kerry is also expected to raise the prospect of direct financial aid, though officials cautioned that the White House still had to sign off on all the elements.

Before arriving in Rome on Wednesday, Mr. Kerry declared in Paris that the Syrian opposition needed additional assistance and indicated that the United States and its partners planned to provide some.

Under a broad definition of “nonlethal,” assistance to the opposition could include items like vehicles, communications equipment and night vision gear. The Obama administration has said it will not — at least for now — provide arms to the opposition.

Mordy, Thursday, 28 February 2013 04:21 (thirteen years ago)

"The training mission, already under way, represents the deepest American involvement yet in the Syrian conflict, though the size and scope of the mission is not clear, nor is its host country."

Probably not in Syria. Iraq maybe? Turkey or Jordan?

Mordy, Thursday, 28 February 2013 04:23 (thirteen years ago)

Maybe not Iraq...

"If the world does not agree to support a peaceful solution through dialogue ... then I see no light at the end of the tunnel,'' [Iraq PM Nouri] al-Maliki said.

"Neither the opposition nor the regime can finish each other off," he continued. "The most dangerous thing in this process is that if the opposition is victorious, there will be a civil war in Lebanon, divisions in Jordan and a sectarian war in Iraq."

Mordy, Thursday, 28 February 2013 04:27 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,2137429,00.html

credit to Time Magazine for what seems like a pretty good process story on the white house developing policy on nuclear iran. lots of stuff i didn't know - about gates writing the memo that galvanized the WH into discussing the feasibility of containment (and suggests that clinton was against containment but gates wanted military action off the table - a gates' aide denies that). also they source anonymous independent analysts who claim that stuxnet was an american-israeli collaboration.

Secretary of State John Kerry, on his first trip abroad, warned that the failure of diplomacy could have "terrible consequences."

He, like every current and former official interviewed for this story, believes Obama will resort to war if necessary to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon.

Mordy, Friday, 1 March 2013 03:48 (thirteen years ago)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-quietly-sends-migrants-sudan-18600955

excerpt from article. NPR also had a story on this

Israel has quietly repatriated hundreds of Sudanese migrants in recent months, drawing accusations from rights groups that it has coerced the Africans into potentially life-threatening situations and possibly violated international norms for treating refugees.

Israel says the departures have been voluntary, but they follow mass arrests of migrants and vows by Israeli leaders to halt the influx.

Over the past eight years, as many as 60,000 African migrants, mostly Sudanese and Eritrean, have sneaked across Israel's border with Egypt's lawless Sinai desert, some fleeing repressive regimes and others looking for work and better conditions.

Israel initially tolerated their arrival but has since grown jittery as their numbers swelled, turning some neighborhoods into immigrant slums.

Leaders warn the migrants are a burden and threaten the country's Jewish character.

curmudgeon, Friday, 1 March 2013 19:08 (thirteen years ago)

Obama is repatriating far larger numbers of Mexican immigrants to an equally (or more) dangerous country.

Mordy, Friday, 1 March 2013 19:18 (thirteen years ago)

"Quietly."

Mordy, Friday, 1 March 2013 19:18 (thirteen years ago)

so, of course, that completely excuses any misconduct on Israel's part. keep on trollin'.

sleeve, Friday, 1 March 2013 20:45 (thirteen years ago)

since this issue is so important to you I imagine you've already discussed this elsewhere on ilx and you're not just an idiot knee-jerk Israel hater? http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/25/obamas-unprecedented-number-of-deportations/

Mordy, Friday, 1 March 2013 20:58 (thirteen years ago)

400,000 is a significantly larger number of immigrants to deport than "hundreds" after all.

Mordy, Friday, 1 March 2013 21:01 (thirteen years ago)

Sudan's dictator and Mexico's president are not equivalent, and I am not sure I buy your argument that Mexico is more dangerous than Sudan.

You have also ignored the fact that some Israelis are very uncomfortable with sending back the Sudanese.

curmudgeon, Friday, 1 March 2013 21:32 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.assaf.org.il/en/

This Israeli organization, cited in that link, is opposed to that current policy.

curmudgeon, Friday, 1 March 2013 21:38 (thirteen years ago)

If it's not worse it's comparable in terms of crime/violence. And I'm not supporting the policy, just pointing out that when Israel does something every single country in the world does (deport undocumented immigrants to dangerous third world countries) it gets unusually robust coverage.

Mordy, Friday, 1 March 2013 21:47 (thirteen years ago)

Glad to hear you are not supporting the policy. Sudan's status:

The warrants issued by the International Criminal Court (ICC) against President al-Bashir have not limited his movements, the sheikh said. Instead, he added, al-Bashir signed partial agreements that bought him time to continue atrocities against civilians in Darfur, Blue Nile and South Kordofan.

curmudgeon, Friday, 1 March 2013 21:56 (thirteen years ago)

The human rights violations committed by Sudan's President make it more than just another "dangerous third world country"

curmudgeon, Friday, 1 March 2013 22:00 (thirteen years ago)

You may be underestimating the violence and human rights violations in Mexico. I'm on Zing so it's hard to do research but iirc intentional homicide rates are close between the two countries.

Mordy, Friday, 1 March 2013 22:12 (thirteen years ago)

The murder rates in Mexico and Sudan are slightly less than that of Puerto Rico. About half that of New Orleans. Where I chose to live.

Meanwhile an interesting map:

http://mondediplo.com/IMG/arton6402.gif

Sanpaku, Friday, 1 March 2013 23:55 (thirteen years ago)

If I give equal time to how shit America is, can I bash Israel?

Gukbe, Saturday, 2 March 2013 01:35 (thirteen years ago)

What do we make of this story?:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-introduces-palestinian-only-bus-lines-following-complaints-from-jewish-settlers-1.506869

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 4 March 2013 05:09 (thirteen years ago)

It sounds bad but important context is that it's only happening because Bibi greatly increased workers' permits to West Bank residents over the last four or so years. Considering the birth pangs of the Third Intifada going on right now, it's probably the better alternative to rescinding all those workers' permits (which will surely happen if Intifada 1 + 2 style violence becomes the norm). If people from the West Bank (as in pre-Bibi days) weren't allowed to enter Israel, there wouldn't be any 'apartheid' buses. Still, seems like terrible PR to me and the better choice would be increasing the already existing fleet + just beefing up security imo.

Mordy, Monday, 4 March 2013 15:22 (thirteen years ago)

"They seem to have had a genetic mutation, probably as a result of radiations and the chemical used on them," Ismail Kahram, Teheran city council environment adviser and university professor Ismail Kahram told Qudsonline.ir.

"They are now bigger and look different. These are changes that normally take millions of years of evolution. They have jumped from 60 grams to five kilos, and cats are now smaller than them." . . .

"We use chemical poisons to kill the rats during the day and the snipers at night, so it has become a 24/7 war," the head of the environment agency, Mohammad Hadi Heydarzadeh, said . . . So far 2,205 rats have been shot dead.

Mordy, Monday, 4 March 2013 20:24 (thirteen years ago)

http://l.yimg.com/os/152/2012/03/26/bigrat-jpg_223315.jpg
Unless some growth hormone factory for Iranian agribusiness is leaking, it could just be invasive giant Gambian rat, which are presently invading the Florida Keys

Sanpaku, Monday, 4 March 2013 21:51 (thirteen years ago)

oh fuck, iraq:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/05/world/middleeast/fighting-escalates-in-syrian-city-opposition-says.htm

Mordy, Tuesday, 5 March 2013 01:13 (thirteen years ago)

I don't know why I trust any stories that Haaretz breaks anymore. From Jeff Goldblog:

Aaron Sagui, the spokesman at the Israeli embassy in Washington, e-mailed me this response to my previous blog post:

Right now, Palestinians wishing to cross legally into Israel (with a working permit) have no direct line to the border crossing. So they either take unauthorized taxis (at expensive fares, since the service is uncontrolled by transportation authorities), or they have to walk or travel to an Israeli city or village (Ariel, for instance) and there take a bus into Israel. The relevant bus company opened two lines that will serve Palestinians, going from their place of residence into Israel, saving them the trouble of going to Ariel first, or taking those taxis. The bus company made it clear, in an official announcement, that no Palestinian shall be shunned or rejected if they choose to travel on the Ariel line.

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 March 2013 18:01 (thirteen years ago)

Interesting segment on Syria today on WHYY NPR:
http://whyy.org/cms/radiotimes/2013/03/06/the-civil-war-in-syria-the-conflict-u-s-policy-and-how-might-it-end/

Worth listening to, imo. Tho they're a bit more gung ho about increasing US support of rebels than I think is wise.

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 March 2013 18:10 (thirteen years ago)

NYT: Syria’s civil war entangled the United Nations peacekeeping operation in the disputed Golan Heights between Syria and Israel on Wednesday, when 30 armed fighters for the insurgency seized a group of 20 peacekeepers investigating a damaged observation post and threatened to treat them as enemy prisoners if Syrian forces remained in the area.

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 March 2013 21:40 (thirteen years ago)

The UN Disengagement Force (UNDOF) peacekeepers are reportedly from Austria, Croatia, India and the Philippines, Al Jazeera's James Bays said from the UN headquarters in New York.

I thought that Croatia withdrew all their troops from the Golan peacekeeping mission after it turned out the rebels were armed w/ Croatian weapons? Why are they still there, and why are the rebels kidnapping UN representatives when that will certainly strain the international community's will to arm them further?

Mordy, Thursday, 7 March 2013 00:53 (thirteen years ago)

Haaretz on its provocative depo-provera story today:

This article, which was updated on March 6, 2013, reported on Health Ministry director-general Prof. Roni Gamzu's instruction to gynecologists not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera if there is any doubt that recipients did not understand the implications of the treatment. The original version failed to state that this instruction was issued "without taking a stand or determining facts about allegations that had been made," and referred to all women and not just women of Ethiopian origin.

Mordy, Thursday, 7 March 2013 14:42 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-ignatius-egypt-slides-toward-financial-ruin/2013/03/06/85974478-85e4-11e2-98a3-b3db6b9ac586_story.html

The economic facts are stark: Egypt’s official foreign-currency reserves in February were $13.5 billion, which would cover a little less than three months of imports. But U.S. officials say that accessible, liquid reserves total only $6 billion to $7 billion. Already, imports are harder to find, including the raw materials needed by Egyptian manufacturers. The Egyptian stock market tumbled 5 percent early this week, sensing danger ahead.

And what is the government of President Mohamed Morsi doing to halt the economic decline? Not a lot. Morsi has been dithering for a year in negotiating a roughly $5 billion rescue package from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) that Egypt desperately needs. He is delaying because he is wary of public anger at the reforms the IMF demands, including reductions in subsidies, which take 25 percent of Egypt’s budget. (Debt service and public-sector employment account for another 50 percent.)

...

So what are U.S. policy options as Egypt nears the brink? Some of Morsi’s critics argue that the United States should let him fail. That’s certainly the view of Egypt’s secular opposition, along with conservative Persian Gulf regimes. They hope Egyptians will reject Morsi and his party in parliamentary elections that begin in late April but might be delayed because of legal challenges.

goole, Thursday, 7 March 2013 16:31 (thirteen years ago)

What do you think Morsi should do?

the so-called socialista (dowd), Thursday, 7 March 2013 19:17 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/opinion/global/end-the-arab-boycott-of-israel.html

Mordy, Friday, 8 March 2013 17:37 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.playboy.com/playground/view/the-cold-arab-spring !!!

Mordy, Friday, 8 March 2013 18:51 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/09/why_is_the_u_s_media_ignoring_rape_in_syria/

Mordy, Sunday, 10 March 2013 00:13 (thirteen years ago)

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/un-palestinian-militants-likely-killed-gaza-baby

JERUSALEM (AP) — A U.N. report indicates an errant Palestinian rocket, not an Israeli airstrike, likely killed the baby of a BBC reporter during fighting in the Hamas-ruled territory last November.

The death of Omar al-Masharawi, the 11-month-old son of BBC stringer Jihad al-Masharawi, became a symbol of what Palestinians see as Israeli aggression during eight days of fighting that killed more than 160 Palestinians and six Israelis. A woman was killed alongside the baby.

Mordy, Monday, 11 March 2013 16:27 (thirteen years ago)

I remember that episode of From Our Own Correspondent. Very sad.

Gukbe, Monday, 11 March 2013 16:59 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21573157-islamists-are-again-defensive-hamas-defensive

In desperation, some Hamas men are looking to Israel to let Gaza freely export its produce, reopen its port, and allow its businessmen and labourers to cross the buffer zone, as they did before Hamas took over in 2007. The longer the ceasefire, the more Israel has eased the flow of trade. But for Hamas this is a mixed blessing. Overland traffic only partially compensates for the shortfall through the tunnels. It also makes Hamas more dependent on—and subservient to—Israel, to ensure vital supplies continue. Hamas’s security forces have begun acting on Israeli intelligence passed via Egypt about wayward militants planning attacks, say Western officials.

Mordy, Monday, 11 March 2013 18:51 (thirteen years ago)

The economist writes: Unable to get the siege fully lifted and nervous about grumblings that the movement is veering towards normalisation with Israel, Hamas may be turning intolerantly inwards again. Some leaders are resorting to more virulent Islamist language in order to fend off the charge of truckling to Israel.

Interesting in terms of discussing to what extent Hamas policy is democratic or fascistic - to some extent the passage seems to suggest that anti-Israel sentiment is used as a way to deflect.

Mordy, Monday, 11 March 2013 19:07 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/likud-reportedly-concedes-education-ministry-to-lapid/

Mordy, Thursday, 14 March 2013 02:55 (thirteen years ago)

interesting op-ed about israel's new government + its relationship to the west:
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/israel-s-new-nationalist-consensus-by-diana-pinto

Mordy, Thursday, 14 March 2013 18:07 (thirteen years ago)

Last week, the U.N. announced that the number of registered refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq and North Africa had reached 1 million.

On Thursday, Reem Alsalem of the U.N. refugee agency said more than 121,000 refugees registered since then, a jump of more than 10 percent.

U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres noted that the average number of Syrians fleeing their country every day rose from 3,000 in December to 8,000 in February.

“This represents a staggering escalation,” he said in a visit to Lebanon on Thursday.

Mordy, Friday, 15 March 2013 14:56 (thirteen years ago)

An Israeli law firm on Thursday formally announced its request to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Fatou Bensada, to open a criminal investigation into violations by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and nine members of Hamas for war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes of aggression.

The allegations include alleged war crimes against Israeli civilians and by the Palestinians against rival Palestinian groups, such as Fatah’s forces against Hamas’s sympathizers during rounds of in-fighting.

lolz

Mordy, Friday, 15 March 2013 15:19 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/161387/americans-sympathies-israel-match-time-high.aspx

Mordy, Friday, 15 March 2013 22:03 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/15/us-women-un-rights-idUSBRE92E03D20130315

(Reuters) - Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood warns that a U.N. declaration on women's rights could destroy society by allowing a woman to travel, work and use contraception without her husband's approval and letting her control family spending.

The Islamist movement that backs President Mohamed Mursi gave 10 reasons why Muslim countries should "reject and condemn" the declaration, which the U.N. Commission on the Status of Women is racing to negotiate a consensus deal on by Friday.

The Brotherhood, whose Freedom and Justice Party propelled Mursi to power in June, posted the statement on its website, www.ikhwanweb.com, and the website of the party on Thursday.

Egypt has joined Iran, Russia and the Vatican - dubbed an "unholy alliance" by some diplomats - in threatening to derail the women's rights declaration by objecting to language on sexual, reproductive and gay rights.

Mordy, Sunday, 17 March 2013 13:49 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/18/opinion/why-iran-may-be-ready-to-deal.html

That logic — if Iran is going to face sanctions anyway, better to face them with the bomb than without — has produced a saying in Tehran these days: “Better to be North Korea than Iraq.”

Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2013 16:49 (thirteen years ago)

Better to be North Korea than Iraq

is it tho

his girlfriend was all 'ugh and he wears a solar backpack' (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 18 March 2013 16:53 (thirteen years ago)

lol otm

Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2013 16:53 (thirteen years ago)

idk if that's true

goole, Monday, 18 March 2013 16:54 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/76068-syrian-planes-bomb-khirbet-younin-wadi-al-khayl-in-arsal-outskirts

Syrian warplanes bombed the border area with Lebanon for the first time on Monday, a high-ranking Lebanese army official told Agence France Presse, reportedly targeting Syrian rebel positions inside Lebanon.

"Syrian planes bombed the border between Lebanon and Syria but I cannot yet say if they hit Lebanese territory or only Syrian territory," the military official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

But a Lebanese security services official on the ground confirmed that the warplanes had fired four missiles against Syrian rebel positions on the Lebanese side of the border.

He said the attacks targeted the town of Arsal, in east Lebanon, close to the Syrian border, where many residents back the uprising against Syrian President Bashar Assad.

The National News Agency had reported: “Syrian warplanes bombed the outskirts of the towns of Khirbet Younin and Wadi al-Khayl in Arsal's barren mountains.

Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2013 16:56 (thirteen years ago)

BEIRUT, Lebanon — Syria’s main exile opposition coalition elected a naturalized Syrian-born American citizen early Tuesday to be the first prime minister of an interim Syrian government, charged with funneling aid to rebels inside Syria and offering an alternative to the rule of President Bashar al-Assad.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 March 2013 02:58 (thirteen years ago)

so, chemical weapons now

his girlfriend was all 'ugh and he wears a solar backpack' (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 March 2013 15:38 (thirteen years ago)

not new, but maybe better documented? they've been using chemical weapons for months now i think

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 March 2013 15:40 (thirteen years ago)

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/01/15/secret_state_department_cable_chemical_weapons_used_in_syria << from back in january

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 March 2013 15:41 (thirteen years ago)

Better to be North Korea than Iraq

is it tho

― his girlfriend was all 'ugh and he wears a solar backpack' (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, March 18, 2013 12:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol otm

― Mordy, Monday, March 18, 2013 12:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk if that's true

― goole, Monday, March 18, 2013 12:54 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This only makes sense if you read it as "better to be Kim Jong Un than Saddam Hussein" which is kind of incontrovertible.

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 19 March 2013 16:33 (thirteen years ago)

there is only one person in North Korea the rest are paste amirite

his girlfriend was all 'ugh and he wears a solar backpack' (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 March 2013 16:38 (thirteen years ago)

grist for the juche mill

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Wednesday, 20 March 2013 02:37 (thirteen years ago)

Mr. Obama did not mention the Palestinians by name in his brief remarks, speaking instead of Israel’s “neighbor.” Nor did he allude to Iran or Syria, the other top items on his agenda. But he invoked the Jewish people’s 3,000-year history in this land, referring to modern Israelis as “the sons of Abraham and the daughters of Sarah.”

“I walk with you on the historic homeland of the Jewish people,” he said as Israeli and American flags rippled and sunlight glinted off the horns of an Israeli military brass band.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 March 2013 20:10 (thirteen years ago)

That's the American Way.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 20 March 2013 20:26 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.theonion.com/articles/itinerary-for-obamas-visit-to-israel,31747/

Gukbe, Wednesday, 20 March 2013 20:27 (thirteen years ago)

i love prez obama. this is why i voted for him twice, even after the other jews told me he hated israel.

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 March 2013 20:29 (thirteen years ago)

If he really loved Israel he would have gone their for a pointless visit in his first term.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 20 March 2013 20:31 (thirteen years ago)

do presidents get their passports stamped? if so then maybe O waited so long hoping that it wouldn't f with a sweet trip to Petra someday

Euler, Thursday, 21 March 2013 01:53 (thirteen years ago)

ALJ:

Obama’s arrival in Ramallah was greeted with none of the easy banter and camaraderie that characterised his meetings with Netanyahu a day earlier.

He and Abbas attended a brief welcoming ceremony and then withdrew into the presidential compound for private talks, where Obama constantly referred to the Israeli prime minister by his nickname, Bibi, the Palestinian leader was only "President Abbas."

Obama told reporters that it was time for the US to "think anew" about how to resolve the conflict, but offered no specific ideas. Instead he simply called on the Palestinians to return to negotiations without preconditions, arguing that Israeli domestic politics make a settlement freeze rather unlikely.

"With respects to Israel, the politics there are complex," Obama said. "If the only way to even begin the conversations is that we get everything right at the outset … then we're never going to get to the broader issue, which is how do you actually structure a state of Palestine?"

His point was axiomatic. A final-status agreement, with clearly defined borders, would of course bring an end to settlement growth.

But the Palestinians have long argued that they cannot negotiate with Israel while it continues to devour the land earmarked for their future state.

In an interview last week, Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, described a settlement freeze as "not [a] Palestinian demand but an Israeli obligation". Abbas reiterated his point on Thursday.

"It is not only our view that settlements are illegal, it is a view shared by the international community," Abbas said.

"In the 1970s and 1980s, more than 13 resolutions were handed down by the United Nations General Assembly, not only condemning settlements but also calling for their end."

In the absence of any negotiations, then, Obama's insistence that the Palestinians drop their demand for a settlement freeze could almost be seen as a green light for Israel to keep building.

Mordy, Friday, 22 March 2013 02:57 (thirteen years ago)

'Top pro-regime cleric killed' in Syria blast: Suicide attack inside Damascus mosque kills Sunni cleric Dr Mohammed al-Bouti, leaving at least 42 dead and 84 wounded.

Bouti's death is a major blow to Syria's embattled leader, who is fighting mainly Sunni rebels seeking his overthrow.

The cleric, believed to be in his 90s, has been a vocal supporter of his regime since the early days of Assad's father and predecessor, the late President Hafez Assad.

In recent months, Syrian TV has carried Bouti's sermon from mosques in Damascus live every week. He also hosts a regular religious television programme.

Mordy, Friday, 22 March 2013 03:00 (thirteen years ago)

holy shit http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/04/deep-state/309260/ !!!

Mordy, Friday, 22 March 2013 18:25 (thirteen years ago)

oh yeah also bibi apologized to turkey over flotilla incident

Afterward, officials from both countries said that diplomatic relations had been fully restored and that ambassadors would be reinstated.

good news i think. now they can deal w/ syria together.

Mordy, Friday, 22 March 2013 18:26 (thirteen years ago)

lololololol

Egypt's largest Islamist group, the Muslim Brotherhood, has been officially registered as a non-governmental organisation by the ministry of social security.

The move came after a 'comprehensive' request submitted by the group on Tuesday, Minister of Social Security Nagwa Khalil told state news agency MENA on Thursday.

The Islamist group met all the requirements of law 84/2002 regulating non-governmental organisations, Khalil said.

The ministry would oversee the group's funding now it is officially registered as an NGO, asserted the minister.

Some analysts argue that the abrupt registration is in breach of the law 84/2002 that forbids NGOs from taking part in political activities, raising doubts about the transparency of the process.

Mordy, Friday, 22 March 2013 20:34 (thirteen years ago)

Like Sinn Fein and the IRA, they're going to have to separate the political and non-political wings of the movement

Canaille help you (Michael White), Friday, 22 March 2013 20:54 (thirteen years ago)

There's gonna be a lot of members ecstatic about that.

Gukbe, Saturday, 23 March 2013 01:02 (thirteen years ago)

this guy writes interestingly about israel + turkey: http://ottomansandzionists.com/ -- he actually wrote the article explaining that the last israel election was not a vote for the center in fp that i linked here. he hasn't yet written about the resumption of turkish/israeli diplomatic relations but i'm curious to see what he thinks

Mordy, Saturday, 23 March 2013 20:31 (thirteen years ago)

i think this is pretty smart on anti-zionism and post-colonialism: http://jesseinjerusalem.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/400/

Mordy, Saturday, 23 March 2013 20:38 (thirteen years ago)

There are a number of problems with that.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:14 (thirteen years ago)

I know it looks like I'm just trolling Mordy, so I'll be brief.

Setting aside the notion that a religion should have a country (horseshit), I think it's important to remember the Muslim brotherhood (split as it is now) viewing Israel as a Western colonialism. The fact is, it was basically bequeathed by Western powers who just decided it should be there. The history of that is complex, sure, but at the end of the day, you have Western powers deciding it should be so, and providing the means to make it so.

By reducing it to ethnic struggles, he ignores the basic historical and Marxist notion that such things are invented in the first place. If a thousand years pass, why should anyone be entitled to a piece of land? Nationalistic justification is a rot in our world, and this is just another example of it.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:25 (thirteen years ago)

I should add I'm for a two state solution, as "mythical" as it probably is.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:25 (thirteen years ago)

can we unpack the equivalence you are drawing between the Jewish people and their religion?

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:38 (thirteen years ago)

Please do

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:39 (thirteen years ago)

I'm being serious btw

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:41 (thirteen years ago)

I'm aware that there's a cultural significance and all, but I can't possibly understand how a thinking person could give a shit.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:43 (thirteen years ago)

So I'm half Indonesian, but I couldn't give a flying fuck about Indonesia, at least over other countries. I was born in America and I am an American, but I couldn't give a fuck about America. I know plenty of people born either fully or part Jewish who don't give a shit about Israel or being Jewish. And on top of that, you can convert into Judaism, which makes the ethnic argument pretty complicated. I recognise that as a people they have been fucked over for centuries, but at the same time, it's 2013 and though anti semitism is clearly still prevalent I can't wrap my head around why there needs to be a "Jewish state".

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:47 (thirteen years ago)

well so

the notion that a religion should have a country (horseshit),

let's focus on this. Do you really think the ideological foundations of Zionism have anything to do with "a religion having its own country"?

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:49 (thirteen years ago)

No, but at it's core, that's what it is, right? You can convert to Judaism, you can't convert to French.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:54 (thirteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure you can't genealogically tie every Jew to the twelve tribes, and even if you could so what?

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 01:57 (thirteen years ago)

Should add that my grandfather was Scottish and I think Scottish nationalism is really fucking stupid.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 02:01 (thirteen years ago)

Also I look down on religious people.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 02:01 (thirteen years ago)

would it surprise you to learn that a lot of early Zionists were Marxists?

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Sunday, 24 March 2013 02:09 (thirteen years ago)

Not in the least. I'm actually fully aware of that.

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 02:18 (thirteen years ago)

But we've progressed have we not?

Gukbe, Sunday, 24 March 2013 02:18 (thirteen years ago)

A senior Palestinian official rejected on Sunday the idea of a partial Israeli settlement freeze as a way of restarting peace talks, a sign of tough times ahead for new attempts by U.S. President Barack Obama administration's to bring the sides together

I can't believe a settlement freeze won't bring the PLO to the negotiating table. Tho I do seem to remember from way back in 2009...

Mordy, Sunday, 24 March 2013 13:37 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/23/us-lebanon-mikati-idUSBRE92L0TG20130323

Mordy, Monday, 25 March 2013 15:53 (thirteen years ago)

Not so new, but I don't think we've discussed the collapse of the Lebanese government yet, have we?

Mordy, Monday, 25 March 2013 15:53 (thirteen years ago)

that guy finally wrote about turkey + israel and i think he has a lot of insights into the situation:
http://ottomansandzionists.com/2013/03/25/the-apology-and-what-comes-next/

Mordy, Monday, 25 March 2013 15:58 (thirteen years ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-general-suggests-creating-buffer-zone-post-assad-142023354.html

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - An Israeli general has raised the possibility of creating a buffer zone in Syria, in cooperation with local forces wary of jihadist fighters, should President Bashar al-Assad be toppled.

Major-General Yair Golan said "many hundreds" of radical Islamists were fighting in Syria's two-year-old civil war and could "take root" in Israel's northern neighbor should Assad fall.
He said the Israeli military was working on the assumption that these fighters would ultimately launch attacks against Israel, which captured the Golan Heights from Syria in the 1967 Middle East war.

"One measure we certainly cannot rule out is to create a security zone on the other side of the border," Golan, head of the military's northern command, said in an interview published on Monday in the Yisrael Hayom daily.

Golan, who oversees Israeli forces on the Syrian and Lebanese frontiers, did not say whether he envisages the deployment of Israeli troops in such a buffer area.
Syrians "with a common interest in cooperating with us" against radical Islamist fighters would be Israel's natural allies in any such security zone, Golan said.
"If an opportunity presents itself - and it hasn't as yet - we should not hesitate," he said. "Everything should be done wisely and secretly, with a true examination of where the interests of the other side lie."

Mordy, Monday, 25 March 2013 16:03 (thirteen years ago)

that's a shitty graph.

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Thursday, 4 April 2013 02:57 (thirteen years ago)

it doesn't even have a useful ideological point, since we don't know what the analogous graph for the US or the UK or China looks like. It's just a graph that conveys "rape!".

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Thursday, 4 April 2013 02:59 (thirteen years ago)

I could read the article but I only have time for complaining about shitty graphs

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Thursday, 4 April 2013 03:00 (thirteen years ago)

that is a kind of hilariously useful graph

max, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:48 (thirteen years ago)

err, useless

max, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:48 (thirteen years ago)

i guess the idea is to compare sexualized violence against women and sexualized violence against men but... why?

max, Thursday, 4 April 2013 10:51 (thirteen years ago)

i was personally shocked about how many male victims there are!

Mordy, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:08 (thirteen years ago)

those graphs doesn't tell you anything about how many male victims there were

k3vin k., Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:12 (thirteen years ago)

hmm

Mordy, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:13 (thirteen years ago)

in my haste to bump this thread after a week inactivity i may have misread the graph

Mordy, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:13 (thirteen years ago)

I was really puzzled about the percentage of reports until I read the article and found that the percentages refer to: "We've broken down the 162 stories we've gathered from the onset of the conflict in March 2011 through March 2013 into 226 separate pieces of data."

But I'm having so much foehn! (Michael White), Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:34 (thirteen years ago)

about musicians boycotting or playing festivals in israel:
http://newsandnoise.wordpress.com/2013/04/04/i-can-understand-the-boycott-on-israel-but-you-have-to-play-fair-an-interview-with-dubi-lenz/

Mordy, Thursday, 4 April 2013 16:16 (thirteen years ago)

Christophe Deghelt's letter to BDS is pretty awesome.

But I'm having so much foehn! (Michael White), Thursday, 4 April 2013 17:13 (thirteen years ago)

http://unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=1698

Demonstrators today stormed the compound of the UNRWA Gaza Field Office in response to a programme cut necessitated by budget shortfalls. The incident is a dramatic and disturbing escalation in a series of demonstrations that have taken place over the past week.

"We fully understand the impact the decision to suspend cash assistance had on some of our beneficiaries. The Agency was able instead to introduce and expand its Job Creation Programme to mitigate the effects of the reduction in cash distribution to the poorest refugee families in Gaza,” stated Director of UNRWA Operations in Gaza Robert Turner. He added that the Agency’s large-scale food distribution programme, that has an increasing caseload of over 800,000, will continue unchanged.

Commenting on today’s escalation and demonstrators breaking into UNRWA’s compound, the Gaza Director stressed that the Agency “respect people's right to peaceful demonstration but what happened today was completely unacceptable: the situation could very easily have resulted in serious injuries to UNRWA staff and to the demonstrators. This escalation, apparently pre-planned, was unwarranted and unprecedented". "These demonstrations affect our ability to provide much needed service to the Palestine refugees in Gaza and—because they also targeted the Gaza headquarters building—our operations in the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria."

Demonstrations during the past week had already forced UNRWA to close many of its facilities. With the situation further compounded by today's actions, all relief and distribution centers will consequently remain closed until guarantees are given by all relevant groups that UNRWA operations can continue unhindered. "This is a very regrettable situation for us to be in, as food distributions right now are taking place for some 25,000 refugees every day. But we cannot tolerate these ongoing threats to our staff: their safety is of crucial concern at the moment," added Turner. "Any other affected installations will also remain closed."

Mordy, Friday, 5 April 2013 02:08 (thirteen years ago)

intense map here! http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/04/syrian_spillover_map_civil_war

Mordy, Friday, 5 April 2013 15:37 (thirteen years ago)

press intimidation in Turkey: http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21575823-government-finds-different-ways-intimidate-free-media-not-so-free

Mordy, Friday, 5 April 2013 15:53 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blog/spongebob-squarepants-middle-east-egypt/

Mordy, Sunday, 7 April 2013 22:41 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/09/world/middleeast/syria-explosion-damascus.html

i have a friend on fb who keeps posting things like: "over/under on israel and turkey splitting up zones of territory in syria?"

Mordy, Monday, 8 April 2013 13:57 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/04/nusra-terrorists-iraq/

Meet the — deep breath — al-Dawla al-Islamiyya fi al-’Iraq wa-l-Sham, the new name for the joint Iraqi-Syrian extremist coined in a statement yesterday by al-Qaida Iraq chief Abu Bakr al-Husayni al-Qurashi al-Baghdadi. As Cole Bunzel explains at Jihadica, the al-Nusra Front, which Washington already considers a terrorist organization, was apparently always intended to be an adjunct of the Iraqi terror group. And while the U.S. has structured its non-lethal aid to the Syrian opposition as a bulwark against the extremism of Nusra, the move further distinguishes the Nusra Front from the rest of the Syrian opposition: al-Baghdadi warned Syrians not to “exchange these years of oppression for the religion of democracy.”

But the decision to join forces has consequences. Legally, it hands the Obama administration an easy path to taking military action against the new entity inside Syria.

Now that Nusra is part of al-Qaida in Iraq, the sprawling 2001 law governing U.S. military action in the war on terrorism called the Authorization to Use Military Force or AUMF, applies to the Syrian militants. Jack Goldsmith, the former Justice Department lawyer who closely monitors national-security law, noted last month that Nusra was creeping ever closer to falling under the AUMF’s auspices. Add to that the State Department’s designation of Nusra as a terrorist group in December, and, legally speaking, the door is pretty open to putting the entity within the U.S.’ crosshairs. (If that wasn’t enough, the 2002 congressional authorization for the Iraq war is inexplicably still in force, complete with provisions about the country “harbor[ing]… international terrorist organizations.”)

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 18:58 (thirteen years ago)

lol @ religion of democracy

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:17 (thirteen years ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/france-starts-troop-pullout-mali-anti-islamist-offensive-144200568.html

One last offensive and then a troops pullout, they say

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 15:05 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/iranian-military-chief-vows-to-defend-north-korea-from-us/2013/04/09/

The deputy chief of staff of the Iranian Armed Forces, Major General Masood Jazayeri announced that Iran will stand by North Korea and defend it in a war between the United States and North Korea.

Jazayeri made the statement on Friday, April 5. He blamed increasing tensions in the Korean peninsula on “excessive demands by the United States,” which he said was “tightening the noose on North Korea.” The Iranian military leader said that those aggressive activities on the part of the U.S. left the North Koreans with no option but to confront the “big Satan.”

“The nation and government of North Korea has always been subject to threat, despotism, and imperialism by the U.S, therefore they consider it their right to boost their own defensive power in order to inhibit their enemy,” said Jazayeri. “The time is long past that the United States can bully other countries.”

Mordy, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 16:56 (thirteen years ago)

Watched a few minutes of that long-running political tv talk show McLaughlin & company (with Pat Buchanan) the other day and I thought McLaughlin was suggesting the US needs to take out North Korea, Iran, and Syria. All at the same time.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 17:07 (thirteen years ago)

Seems like Syria is doing a thorough job of that on their own.

Mordy, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 17:11 (thirteen years ago)

John McLaughlin is still alive?!?

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 10 April 2013 19:28 (thirteen years ago)

Still undead

He has a lot of baggage (handlers' perks) (Michael White), Wednesday, 10 April 2013 19:35 (thirteen years ago)

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/09/world/meast/mideast-migrant-workers/

Data is scarce, but the ILO estimates as many as 600,000 people may be victims of forced labor across the Middle East. That equates to 3.4 in every 1,000 of the region's inhabitants being compelled to work against their free choice, the ILO said.

The study, titled "Tricked and Trapped: Human Trafficking in the Middle East," is based on more than 650 interviews done over a two-year period in Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.

More than half of those interviewed for the study were migrant workers, the ILO said. The others included employers, government officials and representatives of employers' and workers' groups in the Middle East.

"Labour migration in this part of the world is unique in terms of its sheer scale and its exponential growth in recent years," Andrees said. "The challenge is how to put in place safeguards in both origin and destination countries to prevent the exploitation and abuse of these workers."

Mordy, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 21:38 (thirteen years ago)

Fayyad tendered his resignation.

Mordy, Thursday, 11 April 2013 14:27 (thirteen years ago)

Iran invents time machine: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/04/iran-time-machine/

Game over, man. Game over.

Mordy, Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:11 (thirteen years ago)

haha that was my favorite story of the week

max, Friday, 12 April 2013 00:32 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/129086/wikileaks-insight-into-arafat

It’s not clear if the Israelis entirely understood how close the Americans were to Arafat and his outfit. For instance, Israel long believed that Arafat’s intelligence chief Ali Hassan Salameh, one of the masterminds of the massacre of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympic games, was a CIA asset. The truth is that the so-called Red Prince meant much more to the U.S.-Arafat relationship, serving as one of their key intermediaries and a symbol of the nature of their relationship.

Mordy, Friday, 12 April 2013 02:42 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1973KHARTO00686_b.html

( C) ARAFAT RECEIVED
$5 MILLION " BONUS" FROM LIBYA FOR MUNICH OPERATION AND HAS
PRIVATE BANK ACCOUNT IN SWITZERLAND

Also: https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1973KAMPAL01508_b.html

I guess it's not a huge shock.

Mordy, Friday, 12 April 2013 02:51 (thirteen years ago)

https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/nowsyrialatestnews/west-has-hard-evidence-of-syria-chemical-weapons

We pretty much skipped right over that red line, huh.

Mordy, Friday, 12 April 2013 17:28 (thirteen years ago)

It wouldn't take much, just seal a jar during the attack and stick it on ice. The symptoms seen in the Dec. 23 aftermath in Homs are consistent with low-dose phosgene, which, frankly can be made in a garage and isn't terribly threatening on a battlefield (its degrades quickly in presence of water).

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Friday, 12 April 2013 20:29 (thirteen years ago)

^threatening to a modern military. Or anyone who can put a sock dipped in baking soda solution over their mouth during the attack.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Friday, 12 April 2013 20:33 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/12/the_outsider_sayed_kashua?page=0,0

Mordy, Saturday, 13 April 2013 03:20 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas-bulldozes-UNESCO-site-for-military-training-309908

The monitoring organization UN Watch sent a letter on Monday to UNESCO director-general Irina Bokova calling for immediate action to stop the bulldozing of the port "for use as a terrorist training camp." A copy also was sent to European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton calling on the EU to take action.

"UNESCO's admission of Palestine as a member state in 2011, which caused the organization to lose almost a quarter of its budget when the U.S. suspended its contributions, was justified as a measure to help protect world heritage sites in Palestinian areas," the letter said. "Yet as Hamas turns a cultural heritage site into a terrorist training ground -- the antithesis of culture -- the silence of UNESCO now places the very credibility of the organization at stake."

Mordy, Tuesday, 16 April 2013 12:41 (thirteen years ago)

NPR.org hacked Syrian electronic army, turned all files into Vampire Weekend videos.

supermassive pot hole (seandalai), Tuesday, 16 April 2013 12:55 (thirteen years ago)

"effectively dispersing violent arabs"

charlie 4chan, internet detective (Hurting 2), Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:40 (thirteen years ago)

that link seems to be broken. this one should work: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/israeli-skunk-spray-effectively-dispersing-violent-arabs-2-videos/

Mordy, Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:43 (thirteen years ago)

I feel like this story has been recycling itself for all of my lifetime memory -- Israeli authorities congratulate selves for not killing protesters

charlie 4chan, internet detective (Hurting 2), Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:43 (thirteen years ago)

shouldn't they be congratulated for innovative non-violent ways of combating violent protest?

Mordy, Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:45 (thirteen years ago)

or is this like ppl who were complaining about the iron dome bc it "insulates" Israel from the consequences of their policies? they should just take the violence and love it.

Mordy, Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:45 (thirteen years ago)

yes good job massive state forces for being gentler to the peoples that cause you headaches. especially when they get 'violent'.

Gukbe, Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:51 (thirteen years ago)

otm

Mordy, Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:52 (thirteen years ago)

though hurting is right it does feel we've been through this 'look at the new ways with which we can deal with this pesky arab problem' before again and again

Gukbe, Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:53 (thirteen years ago)

what is the violence that the well-armed israeli soldiers in the territory they occupy are being forced to "take"?

charlie 4chan, internet detective (Hurting 2), Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:55 (thirteen years ago)

And this is always the corrolary:

You can’t please some folks: the IDF units switched from live to rubber bullets – and they complained. Now that there are no bullets at all being used – they’re still complaining.

charlie 4chan, internet detective (Hurting 2), Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:56 (thirteen years ago)

The whole story on the Halamish settlement/Nabi Salih conflict is pretty interesting. Evidently it set the precedent for the Israeli authority using an Ottoman Empire era law to confiscate lands not cultivated for 10 years.

13% of the population of Nabi Salih have been arrested since 2009. Having to wash skunk odor off their houses (bleach works fine, use hydrogen peroxide and baking soda on living things) probably won't deter them.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Thursday, 18 April 2013 17:21 (thirteen years ago)

or is this like ppl who were complaining about the iron dome bc it "insulates" Israel from the consequences of their policies? they should just take the violence and love it.

― Mordy, Thursday, 18 April 2013 16:45 (1 hour ago) Permalink

And it's pretty obtuse to draw an analogy between rockets targeted at civilians within Israel and protests of an allegedly but indeterminately "violent" nature (no violence visible in the videos fwiw) directed at Israeli military within occupied territory at or near the sites of disputed settlements.

charlie 4chan, internet detective (Hurting 2), Thursday, 18 April 2013 18:19 (thirteen years ago)

Many (though not all) of the protests in the West Bank involve violence including rock throwing (that has killed civilians) and more organized forms of violent resistance. What do you think people mean when they anticipate a third Intifada?

Mordy, Thursday, 18 April 2013 18:28 (thirteen years ago)

I don't have the time to write a comprehensive breakdown of violent protests in the West Bank, but a quick google brought up this news story from just this month that involved stone throwing, fire bombing, solidarity missile firing from Gaza, gunfire, etc: http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-palestinians-protest-west-bank-142832403.html

Wouldn't you agree that it's better to deal w/ these events w/ stink liquids than w/ bullets (rubber or otherwise)?

Mordy, Thursday, 18 April 2013 18:30 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.defense.gov/Transcripts/Transcript.aspx?TranscriptID=5219

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: I would make the point where we're -- on the arms deal -- (inaudible) -- this is one of the most complex and carefully orchestrated arms sale packages in American history. And that's not just because of the kind of equipment that we're providing to Israel and Saudi Arabia and the Emirates. It's also a reflection of intensive defense shuttle diplomacy.

As you can imagine, working with all three of these countries to fashion an important agreement like this is not easy. It's involved a series of discussions at all levels, including two secretaries of defense with their counterparts, and is reflective, I think, of, you know, the kind of creativity and innovation that we need to address security challenges in the region.

On QME [qualitative military edge] very briefly, we think that this not only sustains, but augments Israel's qualitative military edge in the region. This package is a significant advance for Israel. And I equate this to a rising tide lifts all boats. It's not about relative gains -- if you can go back to your international relations theory class -- or zero-sum calculations of arms inventory. This is about giving all three partners in the region added capacity to address key threats that they may face down the road.

$10b arms sale.

Mordy, Saturday, 20 April 2013 04:16 (thirteen years ago)

some interesting stuff at the bottom of the transcript about Egypt - particularly the role the military is taking in running the country (hands off acc to defense), and their relationship w/ the US (predictably still strong).

Mordy, Saturday, 20 April 2013 04:20 (thirteen years ago)

should NATO/US just ignore syria's sarin use?

Mordy, Tuesday, 23 April 2013 23:04 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrAvea8_-PU

Looks like phosgene to me. Its not a nerve gas, and can be made in a garage.

Someday the Arab world will get their own Wilfred Owen to create general revulsion against chemical weapons use, but they really haven't had a disaster on the scale of WW I yet. Give it time.

From a pragmatic standpoint, gas and artillery bombardment against civilian populations work, absent strong organization or ideology in an opposition. Hama was quiet for 29 years.

The West has usually been indifferent to war crimes, so long as the alternative (Iranian Revolutionary guards overrunning the Majnoon oil field, the Al-Nusra Front taking Damascus) appears worse.

I'm guessing Israel likes calling attention to Arab atrocities for its own reasons, but suspect they're well aware there are worse potential neighbors than the Assad regime.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 23 April 2013 23:31 (thirteen years ago)

indifferent geopolitically ambivalent

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 23 April 2013 23:33 (thirteen years ago)

That video is from 2012, the intelligence analyst is testifying to specific chemical use over the last month. Obviously Israel is perfectly fine w/ loss of Assad (immediate impact on Hezbollah and Iran) but I assume in this case that they do have good, compelling evidence. If you can never be sure unless you've examined the bodies soon after an attack this could go on for a while before there's anything confirmable.

Mordy, Tuesday, 23 April 2013 23:39 (thirteen years ago)

Yesterday I was thinking about the optics of Israel pointing to atrocities in its Arab neighbors from the "nicest thug in a bad neighborhood" angle, but the PR about Assad's chemical weapons also serves a very smart function with respect to the outcome of the Syrian civil war. Israel can't support the more secular end of the FSA directly (it would be a gift to Al-Nusra), but on the chance the FSA prevails in the three-way struggle they're laying groundwork for more amicable relations.

Hezbollah, as the de facto government of south Lebanon, is going to remain there regardless of the fates of Damascus and Tehran. Nasrallah made a huge mistake supporting Assad so openly, it really cuts into their future options in the case of a FSA or Al-Nusra win, as well as his popularity in the Muslim world (Nasrallah topped polls even amongst Sunnis in 2006).

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 21:41 (thirteen years ago)

Yeah, this isn't new -- this is the second drone IDF has shot down from Lebanon (and as you pointed out, vice-versa, etc).

Mordy, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:24 (thirteen years ago)

Sunni cleric Ahmad Assir, who called on Lebanese youth to fight the Hizbullah terrorist group.

There goes all the credit for 2006. Lots of opportunities for spillover of the Syrian civil war into Lebanon (and many still remember the Hariri assassination).

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Thursday, 25 April 2013 15:18 (thirteen years ago)

I think Hezbollah is fucked. Unless this ends w/ Assad staying in power (and it won't) they're going to be finished as a functioning organization. You can't run southern Lebanon without Iranian weapons.

Mordy, Thursday, 25 April 2013 15:21 (thirteen years ago)

over/under in days before NYT breaks American soldiers in Syria?

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 02:35 (thirteen years ago)

on the ground? i'll take the over unless we're gonna play the greenwald game of 'cia on the ground is the same thing as a massive land invasion'

balls, Friday, 26 April 2013 02:37 (thirteen years ago)

on the ground - no cia training rebel forces in the south or shit like that. actual bodies. NATO counts.

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 02:38 (thirteen years ago)

o does it now

balls, Friday, 26 April 2013 02:38 (thirteen years ago)

it's my imaginary futures market!

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 02:40 (thirteen years ago)

+ americans can participate. just send money in an envelope to the following address in europe

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 02:41 (thirteen years ago)

the way they walked it back w/ 'well this is just coming from intelligence who can say really if sarin was used who can even say if this universe is real or if our waking life is in fact a dream' suggests they're pretty hesitant to commit to anything. not sure where the cries to intervene are going to come from that they're not already coming from either w/ the left continuing to believe that if the us or israel didn't do it it's not a human rights violation and rand paul leading the polls in new hampshire on the right.

balls, Friday, 26 April 2013 03:12 (thirteen years ago)

new videos: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/videos-show-aftermath-of-possible-syrian-chemical-attack-in-march/

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 04:31 (thirteen years ago)

Sadly, there are prob factions in the Israel gov and in the US gov which prefer internecine warfare to continue in Syria as long as possible, as a way to sap the strength of all the parties involved. The refugee problem is getting pretty acute along the borders, I hear.

Aimless, Friday, 26 April 2013 04:43 (thirteen years ago)

lol the US getting this report on the day of W's big library opening.

Gukbe, Friday, 26 April 2013 04:45 (thirteen years ago)

Sadly, there are prob factions in the Israel gov and in the US gov which prefer internecine warfare to continue in Syria as long as possible,

daniel pipes made this exact argument. there's a strong constituency for just shrugging and letting the death continue.

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:36 (thirteen years ago)

...on the theory that none of the actors in syria deserve help

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:36 (thirteen years ago)

the West really can't win. don't get involved and it's bc you're indifferent to loss of life (which totally ignores the fact that the US has been sending non-military aid to the rebels and Israel has been treating refugees in the Golan neutral zone). get involved and you're trying to colonize the middle east and spread violence throughout the world.

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:38 (thirteen years ago)

quit reading the guardian!

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:44 (thirteen years ago)

i don't - but i listen to the BBC

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:47 (thirteen years ago)

well, who cares

idk at base i'm not convinced intervention will bring about a good outcome

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:51 (thirteen years ago)

maybe it won't but you did just ascribe the worst motivations to Israel (that they're staying out bc they think all the syrians should just die) bc they won't do the thing that you're not sure would even bring a good outcome?

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:55 (thirteen years ago)

what the fuck i didn't ascribe that to israel at all

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:56 (thirteen years ago)

i ascribed that view, specifically, to daniel pipes, and by implication, 'people who agree with daniel pipes'. when i said 'constituency' for the idea of doing nothing as the best course, i meant in the US.

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:58 (thirteen years ago)

ok - i misunderstood

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 16:01 (thirteen years ago)

maybe they are functionally identical, but "i don't think we can do much good there" is not the same as "syrians killing each other brings me joy"

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 16:06 (thirteen years ago)

goole otm

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 April 2013 16:13 (thirteen years ago)

US isn't gonna send troops into this

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 April 2013 16:13 (thirteen years ago)

Obama called chemical weapons a red line. If he backs off that now he'll lose credibility w/ Iran.

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 16:22 (thirteen years ago)

what if the iranians insisted assad gas some people?? #infowars

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 16:23 (thirteen years ago)

If he backs off that now he'll lose credibility w/ Iran.

not seeing this. Iran and Syria are not in comparable positions.

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 April 2013 16:26 (thirteen years ago)

for ex. seems most likely to me that if Iran crosses a similar "red line" wrt nukes Obama will just use Israel as a proxy to accomplish mutual goals. wrt Syria it isn't clear to me what Israel would gain by intervening, much less the US.

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 April 2013 16:28 (thirteen years ago)

I just don't think you can make a red line and then totally ignore it w/out losing some credibility.

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 16:33 (thirteen years ago)

some lines are more red than others I guess

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 April 2013 16:50 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/04/syria-red-line

“We cannot stand by and permit the systematic use of weapons like chemical weapons on civilian populations,” Obama said today, per Reuters’ Jeff Mason. It was Obama’s first comments about what he acknowledged was a potential “game changer” since his White House acknowledged yesterday that U.S. intelligence considers reports of chemical weapons use in Syria credible.

The key word in that statement is systematic. The surprise White House acknowledgement, in a letter to senators yesterday, said that the Syrian regime used chemical weapons, particularly sarin gas “on a small scale.”

OHHHHH. "SYSTEMIC USE."

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 20:47 (thirteen years ago)

it was a pretty dumb red line to begin with. yeah yeah geneva accords etc but i don't see how a gas attack is that much worse than an afternoon of heavy shelling. it doesn't change anybody's interests or capabilities.

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 20:50 (thirteen years ago)

i'm being delib jerky about 'geneva conventions'; obviously deploying sarin is a serious breach, but, like, so is everything else assad is up to.

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 20:51 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/26/syria_chemical_weapons_strategy_obama

The Syrian regime's subtle approach deliberately offers the Obama administration the option to remain quiet about chemical attacks and thereby avoid the obligation to make good on its threats. But even more worrying, Assad's limited use of chemical weapons is intended to desensitize the United States and the international community in order to facilitate a more comprehensive deployment in the future -- without triggering intervention.

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 22:13 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/26/obama_syria_dilemma

This has obvious implications for that other famous red line on Iran. First, there's a huge problem with defining where that line lies: Israel says Iran must be denied a nuclear capacity, and has put percentages on the danger zone for enrichment (see Bibi's cartoon bomb); Obama says Iran must be denied a nuclear weapon. That gap is already enormous enough even before we consider the issue of how to enforce any red lines, which have a way of turning pink when states reach the moment of truth. The broader point is: Who's going to take any U.S. red line on Iran seriously if the president isn't prepared to enforce his red line on Syria?

Even more than Tehran deterrence, this sends the message to Bibi that he might not be able to count on Obama (which is probably the bigger concern for Obama).

Mordy, Friday, 26 April 2013 23:00 (thirteen years ago)

yawn

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:32 (thirteen years ago)

Why is it such a concern for Obama what Bibi thinks he will do wrt Iran that he should attack Syria just to put his money where his mouth is or some bullshit

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:35 (thirteen years ago)

"People might think the US went soft" is not that high on the list of concerns for the world's sole superpower right now

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:36 (thirteen years ago)

Bc Obama has invested a lot in convincing Bibi to trust him on Iran so that Israel doesn't strike Iran.

Mordy, Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:37 (thirteen years ago)

nb idk whether Obama should care about that but clearly he does.

Mordy, Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:38 (thirteen years ago)

(actually that's not true. i know why O cares. strait of hormuz, oil, etc)

Mordy, Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:40 (thirteen years ago)

* does not include the 4/17 grad rockets from Sinai

Mordy, Sunday, 28 April 2013 02:15 (thirteen years ago)

If he backs off that now he'll lose credibility w/ Iran.

There are plenty of ways to "show action" over chemical warfare that wouldn't involve rushing American warplanes into Syrian air space to drop bombs, or similar "hot" responses. If he wanted to punt, Obama could press this in the U.N. and make a huge show of trying to get international forces involved as his red line-crossing resolve. Or he could do somewhat more engaged stuff short of US troops or air forces.

Aimless, Sunday, 28 April 2013 02:21 (thirteen years ago)

mordy you find the best graphs

resulting paste of mashed cheez poops (silby), Sunday, 28 April 2013 02:38 (thirteen years ago)

Slices of pizza I have eaten, 2013

Jan -
Feb ---
Mar -------
Apr -------------------

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Sunday, 28 April 2013 02:44 (thirteen years ago)

this chemical weapons thing got me wondering

1) odds of terrorist type dudes getting hands on chemical weapons if the govt of syria falls

2) odds of troops or bombers going in to keep that from happening

3) odds that WMDs were actually found in iraq but immediately classified to keep a lid on it

4) odds i've watched "the rock" too many times

the late great, Sunday, 28 April 2013 02:47 (thirteen years ago)

ps that graph is LOL

the late great, Sunday, 28 April 2013 02:47 (thirteen years ago)

Qatari royal Prince Khalifa Al-Thani visiting Israel this November:

http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3601130,00.html

Mordy, Monday, 29 April 2013 19:13 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB_43l9Hb6c&

Iranian experts are working with Syrian officers in the Mazzeh military airport. They manufacture incubators for the toxic substances, which will be loaded onto warheads carried by airplanes. When these warheads hit the ground, they release a toxic cloud...

I was given an order to use these substances, but I replaced them with liquid bleach. This was the reason for my defection from Al-Assad's army...

In the Amoud Horan battle in Busra Al-Harir, I was given an order to launch toxic agents into the trenches and caves to which the F.S.A. was heading. But, Allah be praised, I replaced this substance with liquid bleach, which I diluted with water and launched into the trenches...

I buried these substances with my own hands, so my commander would not find out and send me to prison.

Mordy, Monday, 29 April 2013 19:15 (thirteen years ago)

I don't think a 'red line' need immediately trigger air strikes or boots on the ground.

start having sex eugenically w/ (Michael White), Monday, 29 April 2013 19:48 (thirteen years ago)

Well clearly. Presumably it should trigger something, though.

Mordy, Monday, 29 April 2013 19:57 (thirteen years ago)

i didn't know what abdullah ocalan looked like. scary, it turns out.

goole, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 03:06 (twelve years ago)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/04/201342974354277982.html

Syria PM escapes car bomb attack

State television reports that Wael al-Halqi escaped unharmed after deadly attack in Damascus targeted his convoy.

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 03:32 (twelve years ago)

http://static.dnaindia.com/images/cache/1828408.jpg

Nilmar Honorato da Silva, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 03:33 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/world/middleeast/israeli-airstrike-kills-palestinian-in-gaza.html

JERUSALEM — A Palestinian man was killed in an Israeli missile strike in Gaza on Tuesday hours after an Israeli civilian was stabbed to death by a Palestinian in the West Bank. The two attacks, coming against a backdrop of growing tensions, were the first such killings in months and raised the specter of further confrontation.

The Israeli victim, Evyatar Borovsky, a father of five from the settlement of Yitzhar, was the first Israeli fatality from Palestinian violence in the West Bank since September 2011.

The Israeli military described the target in Gaza, Haithan al-Mishal, as “a key terror figure” who manufactured and traded in weapons, including rockets and explosive devices, and worked with all the militant organizations in the Gaza Strip. The military added that Mr. Mishal had been involved in the firing of rockets at the southern Israeli resort of Eilat earlier this month, although Palestinian officials said he was a police officer.

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 12:10 (twelve years ago)

And some mildly good news:

A senior Qatari official has said Israel and the Palestinians could trade land rather than conform exactly to their 1967 borders in what appears to be a softening of Arab states' stance on the 2002 peace plan.

Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani, Qatar's prime minister and foreign minister, made the comment on Monday after he and a group of Arab officials met US Secretary of State John Kerry to discuss how to promote Israeli-Palestinian peace.

Speaking on behalf of an Arab League delegation, Sheikh Hamad appeared to make a concession to Israel by explicitly raising the possibility of land swaps.

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 12:16 (twelve years ago)

An Iranian regime official and a website close to the regime have recently accused the Jews of engaging in sorcery and of employing it against Iran.

Mehdi Taeb, Official Close to Khamenei: 'So Far, [The Jews] Have Not Used The Full [Scope Of] Their Sorcery Against Us'

Speaking on April 20, 2013 to students at a religious seminary in Ahwaz, Mehdi Taeb noted: "The Jews are currently subjecting us to an unprecedented trial. As you read in the Koran, [King] Solomon ruled the world… and God ordered a group of sorcerers to come out against him. The Jews have the greatest powers of sorcery, and they make use of this tool.

"All the measures that have been brought against us originate with the Zionists. The U.S. is a tool in their hands. So far, they have not used the full [scope of] their sorcery against us. Sorcery was the final means to which they resorted during the Ahmadinejad era, but they were defeated. This ability of the Jews was eliminated by Iran. Five years ago they tried to oust Ahmadinejad [by this means]."

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 14:24 (twelve years ago)

Mordy what do you think about this:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139351/john-mueller/erase-the-red-line?page=show

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 15:21 (twelve years ago)

Personally, I agree w/ him that chemicals are an arbitrary taboo and I don't think Obama should've explicitly made the use of chemical weapons a red line. I don't think the US should get involved (in the beginning I was more open to that possibility when it seemed like we might be able to effectively box out Al-Q but now that seems impossible) and I think if we feel bad we should do what we're already doing - increasing aid. That said, now that Obama declared a red line I think he does need to take some tangible action so that it's not just bluster. idk, he put himself in a tight spot.

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 15:29 (twelve years ago)

nah, it'll just blow over, he's not really in a tight spot in any serious sense

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 15:38 (twelve years ago)

I think he's in a tight spot for two reasons:
a) If he doesn't do anything Assad may get the message that the world will ignore any chemical use and he'll ramp it up. Aka, he's testing Obama.
b) If he doesn't do anything Khomeni will feel even more secure that there will be no intervention in the nuclear program and he'll ramp it up.

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 15:40 (twelve years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/30/hawking_something_syria_intervention?page=0,1

Rep. Rogers warned this weekend: "More than just Syria, Iran is paying attention to this. North Korea is paying attention to this." Sen. Graham more vividly predicted that with Obama's indecisiveness, "we're going to have a war with Iran because Iran's going to take our inaction in Syria as meaning we're not serious about their nuclear weapons program." Their implication is that, if the United States responds to Assad crossing Obama's chemical weapons red line, Iran and North Korea will adhere to their own red lines.

There's one big problem with this logic: According to a tally by Harvard University professor Graham Allison, Iran has already crossed seven red lines put forth by the international community. Furthermore, former Israeli military intelligence chief Amos Yadlin noted this weekend: "Today it can be said that the Iranians have crossed the red line set by Netanyahu at the U.N. assembly." In addition, Israel leaders have repeatedly stressed, as Strategic Affairs Minister Yuval Steinitz declared on Sunday, "We are not making any comparison or linkage with Iran, which is a completely different matter." If Tel Aviv does not draw conclusions from U.S. inaction in Syria with Iran, why should Washington?

I hadn't seen that quote from Steinitz before- I think that's promising (and possibly also an indication that they want to give Obama room to not engage on Syria).

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 April 2013 23:49 (twelve years ago)

Fascinating read:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/29/the_driver?page=full

start having sex eugenically w/ (Michael White), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:50 (twelve years ago)

the "red line" thing just feels like baiting to me

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:05 (twelve years ago)

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/syria-weapons-2/

In Harmer’s tally, there are a number of weapons systems the U.S. can provide the rebels, in great volume and low cost. The U.S. Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System, a combat net radio that U.S. and allied troops use for transmitting voice and data, would enhance rebel communications and control over their makeshift soldiers. Humvees and five-ton M939 trucks can help mitigate the rebels’ transportation problems without being so large and ponderous that they’re easy targets for Assad’s air power. Anti-armor weapons like the AT-4 or the FGM-148 Javelin can assault his armored vehicles, and the iconic Stinger shoulder-mounted missile will make Assad’s planes and helicopters think twice about flying over rebel-held territory. Together, that weaponry would pressure Assad significantly.

But the most all those weapons could accomplish would be to force Assad “to cut out Aleppo,” Harmer concedes. His forces would retrench to the Mediterranean coastal areas and down southward to Damascus, remaining in power. The stalemate would continue — along with pressure for the U.S. to dig deeper into the conflict.

Mordy, Thursday, 2 May 2013 13:49 (twelve years ago)

http://ottomansandzionists.com/2013/05/02/freedom-houses-funhouse-definition-of-israeli-press-freedom/

In case you are wondering why Israel and its supporters constantly decry double standards and Israel being unfairly singled out for criticism, here is Exhibit A. Nobody claims that Israel is perfect, least of all me, but there’s no shortage of Israeli missteps to criticize without making new ones up. The idea that Israel’s press is not completely free is ridiculous, particularly to anyone who has spent even five minutes reading Israeli newspapers or watching Israel television, and if Freedom House wants to credibly assert differently, it’s going to have to come up with something better than a bunch of “yes, but” speculation.

Mordy, Thursday, 2 May 2013 14:15 (twelve years ago)

That seems kind of like a meaningless 'observation' unless you actively compare Israel to its peers on that list and have some knowledge of their press freedom (e.g. Chile, Italy, South Korea, South Africa -- we're not exactly talking about states known as press-dark dictatorships). Press freedom is exactly the sort of thing you can't 100% assess by spending "five minutes reading Israeli newspapers or watching Israeli television." I don't think the author of that blog post even really read the report.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:08 (twelve years ago)

And again, it's not a "double standard" unless countries in the "completely free" category are being given a pass on the same things that knocked Israel down a notch

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:09 (twelve years ago)

Did you read the whole post? He engages directly with a number of the criticisms from Freedom House and pretty much dismantles them. And he is not someone I would consider a biased ("hasbara") blogger - he's very nuanced in my experience.

Mordy, Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:27 (twelve years ago)

Israel has two left papers?

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:51 (twelve years ago)

i assume he means Maariv

Mordy, Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:52 (twelve years ago)

maybe Al-Ittihad? idk, Israel has a lot of papers

Mordy, Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:54 (twelve years ago)

An Iranian regime official and a website close to the regime have recently accused the Jews of engaging in sorcery and of employing it against Iran.

these fucking guys

the late great, Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:57 (twelve years ago)

who, the sorcerers?

goole, Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:04 (twelve years ago)

i assume he means Maariv

― Mordy, Thursday, May 2, 2013 3:52 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:17 (twelve years ago)

wasn't Maariv sold to a right-winger anyway? "Same as it ever was" seems a little disingenuous or just obtuse in this case.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:18 (twelve years ago)

why don't you ask him which was the second paper he was referring to?

Mordy, Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:21 (twelve years ago)

Hmm. Google translate "sorcery" to Persian, and one gets "سحر". Translate "سحر" to English, and one gets "charm".

I'm reminded of the "vanish from the page of time" translation kerfluffle.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:34 (twelve years ago)

lol, u don't seriously think they mean to say that Israel is trying to use its "charm" to defeat Iran

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:35 (twelve years ago)

"Flattery will get you nowhere, zionist entity! (wink)"

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:36 (twelve years ago)

I know we've outlawed the assassination of foreign leaders. Does it need a rethink? An exception for force majeure? A nice drone strike on poor Assad might be the best thing for all involved. If our bien-pensant principles in an age of fanatical terrorist violence may not to lead to an optimal result in a country w/over 2.5m refugees and where the majority are increasingly prone to radicalization and nevertheless are subject to horrific violence.

start having sex eugenically w/ (Michael White), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:37 (twelve years ago)

Charm al sheikh joke won't work for Persians. Damn!

start having sex eugenically w/ (Michael White), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:38 (twelve years ago)

xp H2:

No, just that its possible there's one word in Persian that means charm, deception, propaganda, or sorcery, which would account for the reference to the 2009 election/attempted color revolution in the quote. As a non-Persian speaker, there's no way for me to know.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:00 (twelve years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/02/inside_lebanons_worst_prison

Mordy, Friday, 3 May 2013 02:13 (twelve years ago)

Israel launching air strikes into Syria according to Twitter, News Organizations.

Gukbe, Saturday, 4 May 2013 01:03 (twelve years ago)

not finding much in the way of news on that

the late great, Saturday, 4 May 2013 04:20 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/world/middleeast/syria.html?_r=0

Gukbe, Saturday, 4 May 2013 04:34 (twelve years ago)

i saw that, i didn't mean independent confirmation as much as specifics

the late great, Saturday, 4 May 2013 04:35 (twelve years ago)

An American official, who asked not to be identified because he was discussing intelligence reports, said the targeted shipment consisted of Iranian-made Fateh-110’s — a mobile, accurate, solid-fueled missile that has the range to strike Tel Aviv and much of Israel from southern Lebanon, and that represents a considerable improvement over the liquid-fueled Scud missile. Two prominent Israeli defense analysts said the shipment included Scud D’s, a missile that Syrians have developed from Russian weapons with a range of up to 422 miles — long enough to reach Eilat, in southernmost Israel, from Lebanon.

Syrian forces loyal to Mr. Assad have used Fateh-110 missiles against the Syrian opposition. Some American officials are unsure whether the new shipment was intended for use by Hezbollah or by the Assad government, which is believed to be running low on missiles in its bloody civil war. But one American official said the warehouse that was struck in the Israeli attack was believed to be under the control of operatives from Hezbollah and Iran’s paramilitary Quds Force.

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 01:07 (twelve years ago)

seems unlikely to me that this is Israel but hard to imagine who it could be - rebels don't have this kind of firepower afaik?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/05/20135502043908700.html

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 01:12 (twelve years ago)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/syria-says-damascus-targeted-by-fresh-israeli-strike/

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 01:15 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2TV1--TeRw

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 01:16 (twelve years ago)

I'm pretty convinced that "Allahu Akbar" means "Oh, Shit" in the Arabic language.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Sunday, 5 May 2013 01:18 (twelve years ago)

that's just ignant

the late great, Sunday, 5 May 2013 02:14 (twelve years ago)

wouldn't it be kind of a strange turn of events for Israel to actually target a Syrian military base, essentially providing support to the rebel groups, as opposed to just targeting a weapons convoy? Sounds questionable to me, unless Israel is starting a dramatic change in strategy.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Sunday, 5 May 2013 03:07 (twelve years ago)

Extraordinary to me that Assad makes a public appearance to unveil a statue in honor of those fallen the civil war that is *still happening*.

Gukbe, Sunday, 5 May 2013 03:09 (twelve years ago)

xp: Ignant, maybe. I'd be the last to chant "god is great" under fire. Typical infidel.

Probably not a U.S. strike, unless submarine launched Tomahawks. The U.S. Navy is mostly not ready for prime time.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Sunday, 5 May 2013 03:17 (twelve years ago)

xxp that's my thinking. on the other hand i can't understand who else would do it. turkey? maybe rebels detonated something in an ammo depot and that caused the explosion?

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 03:24 (twelve years ago)

fertilizer plant

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Sunday, 5 May 2013 03:26 (twelve years ago)

Videos posted on the Internet by activists showed a huge fireball erupting on Mount Qassioun, a landmark hill overlooking the capital on which the Syrian government has concentrated much of the firepower it is using against rebel-controlled areas surrounding the city.

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 03:36 (twelve years ago)

sorry for ignorant as fuck question, but if it were an airstrike wouldn't their be reports of people hearing a plane or something?

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Sunday, 5 May 2013 03:42 (twelve years ago)

if this is legit holy shit
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-reportedly-may-join-defense-pact-with-saudi-arabia-uae/

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 04:41 (twelve years ago)

sunday times may not be the most trustworthy source

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 04:41 (twelve years ago)

By BASSEM MROUE and IAN DEITCH Associated Press
BEIRUT May 5, 2013 (AP)
Israeli warplanes struck areas in and around the Syrian capital Sunday, setting off a series of explosions as they targeted a shipment of highly accurate, Iranian-made guided missiles believed to be bound for Lebanon's Hezbollah militant group, officials and activists said.

The attack, the second in three days and the third this year,

curmudgeon, Sunday, 5 May 2013 14:55 (twelve years ago)

Egypt's president condemns the alleged Israeli airstrikes against Syria, calling them a violation of International law and warning they complicate the ongoing civil war in that country.

plz don't complicate the civil war lol

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 15:58 (twelve years ago)

xp H2:
With GPS guided weapons, a pilot can go into a climb at 25,000 ft, perhaps 10 miles away, release the munitions, and in the case of Syria's Mount Qassioun, an Israeli pilot can turn around and be back in Israeli airspace before anything hits the ground. Only radar operators get any warning.

The array of fires across the slope of Mount Qassioun suggests Israel targeted fixed pre-war munitions bunkers spaced all over Qassioun, and visible in Google satellite mapping, rather than striking a convoy in route.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Sunday, 5 May 2013 16:21 (twelve years ago)

I'm pretty sure Syria's government have their hands full but...uh....http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/05/world/meast/syria-violence/index.html

Gukbe, Sunday, 5 May 2013 23:10 (twelve years ago)

see if you can guess before opening this article when it was written:
http://washingtonexaminer.com/syria-and-iran-threaten-to-retaliate-against-israel-for-air-raid-near-damascus/article/feed/2068176

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 23:28 (twelve years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gIGHM5jC-Sk (Syria TV):

Interviewer: Today, an Israeli newspaper leaked the news that the Emir of Qatar would be visiting Israel in the near future, in order to strengthen trade relations between the two countries. Will we have to get used to ties between Israel and some Arab countries?

Yahya Abu Zakariya: Let me say – and this is not propaganda - that the Qataris are Jews. The Thani clan is the clan of Ben-Gurion. The Qataris have Jewish roots, because in the Arab national fabric, no Arab, unless he is Jewish, can harbor such vicious hatred toward another Arab. We know this from our Arab history, and we see it in the present. Hamad Bin-Gurion Al-Thani is a Jew.

Mordy, Sunday, 5 May 2013 23:40 (twelve years ago)

the no true arab fallacy

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Sunday, 5 May 2013 23:49 (twelve years ago)

"this is not propaganda" -- I need to work that into some work emails

goole, Monday, 6 May 2013 02:17 (twelve years ago)

who is abu zakariya

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Monday, 6 May 2013 02:18 (twelve years ago)

bin-gurion

buzza, Monday, 6 May 2013 02:23 (twelve years ago)

xp H2:

He's a Algerian-Swedish journalist and a nasty piece of work.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Monday, 6 May 2013 03:41 (twelve years ago)

http://ottomansandzionists.com/2013/05/06/not-all-interventions-in-syria-are-created-equal/

Third, even if Israel did launch the second strike from Syria itself, keep in mind that Syria has a long history of not responding to Israeli incursions while not extending the same courtesy to other countries. Israel flew eight planes in and out of Syria to destroy its nuclear reactor and extract its commandos on the ground in September 2007 without a shot being fired. Israel also conducted a strike in Syria through Syrian airspace in January, as noted above, and possibly again this past weekend, all without running into any resistance at all. In contrast, Turkey had its F-4 downed over Syria last summer, and whether it was brought down by Syria or – as has been widely rumored – by a Russian anti-aircraft battery, the fact remains that Syria generally keeps its head down when Israel is involved. In fact, a former Syrian air force major now with the rebels has claimed that Syrian air defenses were actively ordered to stand down during the Israeli raid on the al-Kibbar reactor once the planes were detected and it became clear that it was an Israeli operation. The reason might be that Israel has a carefully cultivated reputation for responding to provocations with overwhelming and even disproportionate force, which smartly deters retaliatory action. If Syria thinks that Israel will bomb it back to the Stone Age if it shoots at Israeli planes, it has every reason to stand down. Indeed, if the reports of the massive explosions in Damascus on Sunday are to be believed, Israel is still making sure to employ its own version of shock and awe. I am not sure that the U.S. reputation in the region is quite the same as Israel’s, and so extrapolating from Syria’s turning a blind eye to Israeli incursions that it will also ignore sustained U.S. incursions is, in my view, a bridge too far.

Mordy, Monday, 6 May 2013 15:42 (twelve years ago)

From the same piece (both links above are very worth reading imho):

One last related note: to those who incessantly insist that Israel is of absolutely no strategic worth to American interests and is nothing but an albatross around the neck of the U.S., I’d submit that having the Israeli military around to prevent transfers of Iranian-furnished weapons to Hizballah and to make sure that Assad’s delivery systems for chemical weapons also stay right where they are, all while battlefield-testing American weapons in the process, is pretty useful right about now. Just sayin’…

Mordy, Monday, 6 May 2013 15:49 (twelve years ago)

Anybody in a state of war with their neighbor who transfers weapons to an enemy of that neighbor has to expect that the neighbor may actively attempt to interdict or destroy said weapons. It's hardly shocking.

start having sex eugenically w/ (Michael White), Monday, 6 May 2013 16:14 (twelve years ago)

I assume that's why they haven't reacted much in the past

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Monday, 6 May 2013 16:17 (twelve years ago)

this could go on a bunch of threads r/n

https://twitter.com/TheOnion

goole, Monday, 6 May 2013 17:44 (twelve years ago)

catch 'em before they're gone!

goole, Monday, 6 May 2013 17:45 (twelve years ago)

woah, did they get hacked or is this an elaborate joke???

Mordy, Monday, 6 May 2013 18:10 (twelve years ago)

yup hacked. apparently they're already gone -- i'm saving the screenshot i have now.

goole, Monday, 6 May 2013 18:12 (twelve years ago)

i wonder what made them a target. they've never seemed particularly pro-israel to me

Mordy, Monday, 6 May 2013 18:15 (twelve years ago)

my screenshot has more!

http://i.imgur.com/JAFwa5R.jpg

goole, Monday, 6 May 2013 18:19 (twelve years ago)

i guess this is the retributive strike israel can expect for the attack this weekend

Mordy, Monday, 6 May 2013 18:31 (twelve years ago)

i wonder what made them a target. they've never seemed particularly pro-israel to me

― Mordy, Monday, May 6, 2013 2:15 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

neither did e!, unless e! has changed a lot since i last caught it

max, Monday, 6 May 2013 19:40 (twelve years ago)

http://www.theonion.com/articles/onion-twitter-password-changed-to-onionman77,32323/

ḉrut (crüt), Monday, 6 May 2013 19:48 (twelve years ago)

77 entering the collective subconscious

ḉrut (crüt), Monday, 6 May 2013 19:48 (twelve years ago)

lololol http://www.theonion.com/articles/syrian-electronic-army-has-a-little-fun-before-ine,32324

Mordy, Monday, 6 May 2013 20:14 (twelve years ago)

ooh brutal

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Monday, 6 May 2013 20:18 (twelve years ago)

:-/

the late great, Monday, 6 May 2013 20:21 (twelve years ago)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-strikes-a-blow-to-conventional-arab-thinking/

Mordy, Monday, 6 May 2013 23:03 (twelve years ago)

Suspect SEA is expats and Anonymous sympathizers.

Also, technically shouldn't Jihadis place a rather large emphasis on cleanliness? I know (as in Judaism) there's a long list of activities that require ritual cleansing.

If there's any religious group worthy of olifactory derision, its pre-modern Christians, for whom (at least in the Roman tradition) bathing was considered ostentatious luxury.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Monday, 6 May 2013 23:07 (twelve years ago)

Hey Greenwald http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/06/syria-israel-bombing-moral-relativism

Gukbe, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 06:43 (twelve years ago)

it's hard to believe anyone reads a greenwald column for anything besides the lulz at this point

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 15:05 (twelve years ago)

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/israel-syria-missile-defense

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 15:23 (twelve years ago)

Greenwald's ideology is just the inverse of might-makes-right, it's relative weakness makes right.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 15:30 (twelve years ago)

There's no complexity or gray factored into Greenwald's ideology.

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 16:16 (twelve years ago)

It's easy to find other Greenwald columns where he emphasizes that way more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed in the conflict as a kind of dodge of adressing criticism of Palestinians. That's not applying a "universal principle" either. Neither is crying foul about destruction of missiles while not apparently writing a word about dead Syrians. Is it because the latter didn't involve violation of state sovereignty, the "principle" at issue here?

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 16:25 (twelve years ago)

who's state sovereignty has been violated anyway? the assad government's? the ppl of syria? why would he make a principle out of state sovereignty anyway? isn't it an outdated 19th century european invention?

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 16:42 (twelve years ago)

Middle East CW within:
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/the-changing-map-of-middle-east-power-by-volker-perthes

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 18:47 (twelve years ago)

I think my biggest problem with a lot of left critiques in re the middle east, us imperialism, etc. is the refussal to acknowledge or understand the nature of the power game being played out as one with multiple players. Chomsky's excuse is always "my job is to point out the wrongs committed by my own side" or something along those lines, but I find this to be a way of avoiding some of the more uncomfortable questions that geopolitics presents.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 18:56 (twelve years ago)

the principle that countries shouldn't attack each other seems like a pretty good one to me

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 19:28 (twelve years ago)

-- bob marley

the late great, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 19:29 (twelve years ago)

How about the principle that governments shouldn't slaughter their populations?

the so-called socialista (dowd), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 19:38 (twelve years ago)

don't be so eurocentric - that's just the culture over there

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 19:38 (twelve years ago)

the principle that countries shouldn't attack each other seems like a pretty good one to me

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:28 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what about when the purpose is to attack missiles that have no purpose other than to kill your own country's civilians?

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 19:40 (twelve years ago)

not sure what 'the principle that governments shouldn't slaughter their populations' has to do with the israeli air strikes.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 19:48 (twelve years ago)

no I mean the missiles destroyed by Israel were intended to kill israeli civilians.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 19:50 (twelve years ago)

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-source-tells-haaretz-assad-s-green-light-to-strike-israel-merely-symbolic.premium-1.519790

A senior member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command told Haaretz on Tuesday that the green light given by Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime to respond to alleged Israeli strikes was not intended to spark an escalation on the Golan Heights front, but was rather an expression of the Syrian leadership's support for the Palestinians.

The Palestinian source, who does not live in Damascus but has close ties with the PFLP-GC's Syrian branch, described the regime's message as a political statement rather than a call to arms, "since such activity would set the entire region alight."

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 20:22 (twelve years ago)

tbh i'm not sure i'm even opposed to the air strikes, israel and its relationships with its neighbors is such a sui generis case that i'm not sure ironic reversals a la 'what if it were iran?' are really that illuminating. i was mainly just responding to mordy's dismissal of the idea that 'state sovereignty' matters.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 20:24 (twelve years ago)

I think it matters! I was just surprised that Greenwald agreed. Certainly he's more skeptical of 'state sovereignty' when it's a Western country being discussed.

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 20:28 (twelve years ago)

And also in this case (Syria) I'm confused about what we're talking about when we talk about state sovereignty. From certain perspectives it doesn't seem like Syria really exists anymore.

Mordy, Tuesday, 7 May 2013 20:29 (twelve years ago)

Technically, Israel and Syria have remained in a state of war since the 1967 Six-Day War. Israeli attacks on Syria seem to be in violation of the 1974 Agreement on Disengagement, rather than sovereignty, per se.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 20:52 (twelve years ago)

I am sure the IDF knows that as well as anybody but the very real threat of Hezbollah getting missiles that could strike almost the whole of Israel may outweigh what the Assad regime thinks, considering it's current state, and what the SFA thinks, considering the long hard slog they still have. The dissonance I've been hearing from Palestinians and Syrians (on both sides) has been fascinating.

start having sex eugenically w/ (Michael White), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 21:09 (twelve years ago)

Since the end of Israel-Hezbollah hostilities in 2006, there appear to have been 9 rocket attacks from Lebanon, resulting in 1 broken leg, and the only groups that have claimed responsibility are the Al-Qaeda affilliated (and hence anti-Shite/Hezbollah) Battalions of Ziad Jarrah & Abdullah Azzam Brigades. Hezbollah appears to exert far more restraint (and discipline among its ranks) than Hamas in Gaza, and its not clear to me Israel would be any safer with a power vacumn in Southern Lebanon.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 7 May 2013 21:27 (twelve years ago)

Yom Yerushalayim tmmrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8Co7IzOyhw

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 02:15 (twelve years ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-groups-pm-halts-settlement-building-124648397.html

But don't worry, I'm sure this won't bring Abbas to the negotiating table.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 14:20 (twelve years ago)

it should be halted regardless

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 14:21 (twelve years ago)

I don't think Jerusalem should be divided so obviously I'm not totally on page with you, but I think it is worth noting when settlement construction is being halted and peace is not advanced - to at the very least challenge the canard that settlements are responsible for the lack of progress.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 14:25 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/world/middleeast/hezbollah-takes-risks-by-fighting-rebels-in-syria.html

Also apparently Assad shut down the internet again.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 15:59 (twelve years ago)

I'm starting to think Assad is going to stay in power. Between the massive support he's getting from Russia/China and the radicalization of the rebels, I think he's actually going to pull this one out. It's kinda nuts.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:00 (twelve years ago)

but I think it is worth noting when settlement construction is being halted and peace is not advanced - to at the very least challenge the canard that settlements are responsible for the lack of progress.

― Mordy, Wednesday, May 8, 2013 10:25 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think this is both simplistic and a strawman. No one says that settlements are the sole cause of lack of progress, and the fact that a momentary halt to their construction doesn't immediately bring about peace hardly shows they aren't an impediment.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:01 (twelve years ago)

And I think ppl who blame the settlements for stalling peace are also simplistic. I agree w/ Caroline Glick. Settlements are only an impediment to the two state solution if you believe a future Palestinian state should be judenfrei. Jews should be allowed to live wherever they want in their historical homeland.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:03 (twelve years ago)

Palestinians should either build a State w/ human rights that protect the rights of Jews living in Hebron and Nablus, or they shouldn't have a State.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:06 (twelve years ago)

"judenfrei"... :-/ Why did you feel the need to spell it that way?

xp

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:07 (twelve years ago)

How should I spell it? 'Jew Free?'

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:07 (twelve years ago)

Well, you write everything else in English, so that would be logical no? Why the nod to World War II when discussing settlements/two states?

Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:09 (twelve years ago)

Settlements are only an impediment to the two state solution if you believe a future Palestinian state should be judenfrei.

This ignores the one-sidedness of the current arrangements, wherein Jews are permitted to take up ever more of the land and resources in the west bank (which they then exclude arabs from in many cases), while no concommittant "settlement" is taking place in the other direction. Palestinians are not entering Israel from the West Bank and building large, exclusive towns guarded by their own military.

Honestly I like you as a poster Mordy but I find you massively obtuse on this subject.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:11 (twelve years ago)

What a coincidence! I find you massively obtuse on this subject too. You haven't responded to what I wrote at all. What does it matter how the settlements came into being (and btw, the vast majority of new settlements are not blessed by the Israeli government but independently funded) - if the Palestinians ever get a State they can be incorporated into that State. That is, of course, assuming the Palestinians are okay with Jews living in their State. They are not. (Nor has any other Islamic state in the region who have all either completely destroyed/expelled their Jewish populations, or greatly diminished them.) Meanwhile the Palestinian population in Israel has grown since the foundation of the State.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:15 (twelve years ago)

And btw, you're wrong about it working in reverse. The Palestinians create illegal settlements all the time. I have to run to lunch but when I get back I'll show you some articles about various illegal Arab settlements in the area.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:16 (twelve years ago)

every single sentence of that post has massive caveats

xp

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:16 (twelve years ago)

"if the Palestinians ever get a State they can be incorporated into that State" -- are there any settlers willing to become citizens of a palestinian state?

goole, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:18 (twelve years ago)

can't believe that a hypothetical Palestinian state might have misgivings about incorporating a population completely hostile to the existence of a Palestinian state. hmm that sounds kind of familiar

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:20 (twelve years ago)

"if the Palestinians ever get a State they can be incorporated into that State" -- are there any settlers willing to become citizens of a palestinian state?

― goole, Wednesday, May 8, 2013 12:18 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, this is just one of the myriad reasons mordy is being ridiculous about this imo. Preventing a Palestinian state is largely the MOTIVATION for much of the settlement.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:23 (twelve years ago)

regardless of whether it is officially "blessed" by the Israeli government. I recognize that it is not, but it is nonetheless tolerated and aided by the government.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:24 (twelve years ago)

Nor has any other Islamic state in the region who have all either completely destroyed/expelled their Jewish populations, or greatly diminished them.

this is really disingenuous as well, glossing over a lot of complexities regarding, for example, Persian Jews in Iran

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 16:36 (twelve years ago)

Yeah, all five of them. If you want to have a serious conversation about this please don't bullshit me w/ caveats about Arab countries relationships to their Jews. Maybe it wasn't as bad as the Polish Jews had it, but it was still plenty bad. This png is a little crude but I think makes the point:

http://europenews.dk/files/ethnic-cleansing-in-middle-east.png

More importantly though, Jews have lived throughout the Israel + Palestinian territories without interruption since the destruction of the Second Temple. The Abraham Avinu Synagogue was built in Hebron in 1540 until it was destroyed in the Hebron massacre in 1929. Hebron is one of the holiest Jewish sites in the world, but any Jews living there today are considered interlopers and settlers. Joseph's Tomb outside Nablus is another Jewish site that has attracted Jewish residents for literally thousands of years. These are places that Jews have lived in forever, and should be allowed to continue to live. Your points are well-taken that settlers likely do not want to live under Palestinian rule (after all, Jewish experiences living under Arabic control have not been pretty). However their desires should not conflict with any final two-state settlement. By the way, this is my primary opposition to the two state solution. I don't believe the Palestinians will protect the holy places of the Jews in their territory, or the Jewish people who want to live there. In 2000, when the PNA took control of the area, Joseph's Tomb was looted and razed. Still, the settlements are themselves not the issue - like I said above any settlements can be incorporated into a future Palestinian State. The objection is only the people living in those settlements. Just like Israel incorporated numerous Palestinians who resisted the state of Israel (as a data point, many of the East Jerusalem residents still object to being made citizens of the State), the Palestinians can do the same.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:02 (twelve years ago)

I'm not bullshitting you. Iran not on your handy infographic btw

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:04 (twelve years ago)

And honestly, Hurting, I am happy to discuss this issue with you (as evidenced by the fact that we seem to have similar conversations every few weeks like clockwork) but I wish you'd treat my position with at least a little respect. I'm not being obstinate. I've read extensively on this issue, followed news stories carefully, visited Israel twice, have family and friends who live in the country, and I believe I've applied plenty of intellectual rigor to the question. I do not doubt that my thoughts on the issue are influenced by my heritage and upbringing, but they are not solely based on that. Which is to say that I am not challenging conventional wisdom because I'm being an asshole. I'm challenging it because I sincerely believe that it is - at best - ignorant about the actual facts of the situation. And at worse actually hiding certain ideological backdrops that are fairly disturbing.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:05 (twelve years ago)

At the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there were approximately 140,000–150,000 Jews living in Iran, the historical center of Persian Jewry. About 95% have since migrated, with the immigration accelerating after the 1979 Islamic Revolution, when the population dropped from 100,000 to about 40,000.[26] Following the Iranian Revolution, some 30,000 Iranian Jews immigrated to Israel, while many others went to the United States and Western Europe.

xp

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:06 (twelve years ago)

the settlements are themselves not the issue - like I said above any settlements can be incorporated into a future Palestinian State. The objection is only the people living in those settlements.

I can't even... what is this ridiculous hairsplitting

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:06 (twelve years ago)

Please read what I wrote because I think I explained that very thoroughly.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:07 (twelve years ago)

Just like Israel incorporated numerous Palestinians who resisted the state of Israel (as a data point, many of the East Jerusalem residents still object to being made citizens of the State), the Palestinians can do the same.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:07 (twelve years ago)

I can quote wikipedia too

Ayatollah Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a fatwa decreeing that the Jews were to be protected.

Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and former chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran said, "Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism – he saw us as Iranians."

Although Israeli officials and American Jewish communal leaders have urged Iranian Jews to leave their home country, an estimated 20-25,000 Iranian Jews have stayed. In June 2007, though there were reports that wealthy expatriate Jews established a fund to offer incentives to Iranian Jews to emigrate to Israel, few took them up on the offer. The Society of Iranian Jews dismissed this act as "immature political enticements" and said that their national identity was not for sale

Jews are represented in the gov't (such as it is), are conscripted in the army etc

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:09 (twelve years ago)

xp

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:09 (twelve years ago)

Oh goodie, Shakey. Why don't you rebut yourself since you did such a good job on the Adbusters thread explaining to me why it doesn't matter how many Arabs are represented in the Israeli government.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:10 (twelve years ago)

Anyway, a 95% migration of Jews from Iran is really the only statistic you need to know. There are still Jews in Egypt who are actually vehemently anti-Zionist. You can find small minorities who believe anything. When 95% of Jews flee a country though, I think that is pretty damning.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:11 (twelve years ago)

Just like Israel incorporated numerous Palestinians who resisted the state of Israel (as a data point, many of the East Jerusalem residents still object to being made citizens of the State), the Palestinians can do the same.

and how does that make anybody happy?! why replicate a shitty "solution" that appeases no one

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:11 (twelve years ago)

Why don't you rebut yourself since you did such a good job on the Adbusters thread explaining to me why it doesn't matter how many Arabs are represented in the Israeli government.

I quoted that point precisely because you seemed to think that such minority representation was meritricious on the other thread

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:13 (twelve years ago)

Yes, I think representation of over a million Palestinians in a Democratic government is meretricious. I don't think the few thousand Jews left in Iran and allowed to participate in their theocracy is particularly noteworthy.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:14 (twelve years ago)

Oh no! They won't be happy! Palestinian supporters and the PLO have cited settlements as the reason why they won't negotiate for a State. Not only have settlements been stalled (most notably for 10 months when Bibi first took office) but I'm pointing out that even if they didn't stall it doesn't matter. Jews should be allowed to live in Palestine and if the Palestinians intend to protect minority Jewish rights (which I think they must if they want any State at all), they should accept settlements and acknowledge that some Jews will live in the future Palestinian state. And if they aren't okay having a state that Jews live in, I do not believe they deserve a State at all.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:15 (twelve years ago)

so you think that even if settlements were halted and removed (as they should be imho) that they still wouldn't negotiate

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:22 (twelve years ago)

Yes, but that's not the point I'm making. I'm arguing that the settlements shouldn't be halted and removed because Jews should be allowed to live in Hebron where they have lived for thousands of years.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:23 (twelve years ago)

Obviously Abbas still won't negotiate no matter what though because he knows that a Palestinian state will mean the end of the PLO at the hands of Hamas. Look to the complete withdrawal of Jews from Gaza. There's no reason to believe it'll be any different in the West Bank.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:24 (twelve years ago)

frankly idgaf where people have lived for thousands of years, I find historical claims to ownership of anything highly dubious

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:26 (twelve years ago)

Obviously Abbas still won't negotiate no matter what though because he knows that a Palestinian state will mean the end of the PLO at the hands of Hamas.

a situation handily aided and abetted by Israel's own policies, as I'm sure you know

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:27 (twelve years ago)

Oh give me a fucking break dude. Yeah, Israel helped Hamas slaughter the PLO and chase Abbas out. I don't fucking think so.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:29 (twelve years ago)

It's always Israel's fault. Palestinians want a Jewish-free territory? Israel's fault. Palestinians refuse to negotiate? Israel's fault. Palestinians form radical terrorist political bodies that murder slightly more moderate Palestinians? Israel's fault.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:30 (twelve years ago)

If only Sharon had unilaterally withdrawn all the settlers from Gaza in precisely the right way the Palestinians would've surely stepped up to the plate.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:31 (twelve years ago)

you don't think Israel had a hand in undermining the Palestinian Authority

xp

my opinion is that it's EVERYBODY'S fault over there. they're all a bunch of amoral, self-interested short-sighted gangsters, on BOTH sides

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:32 (twelve years ago)

It's 2013, and we're knee-deep in the Islamic radicalization of the entire Middle East. Do you think maybe that's a better explanation for the rise of fundamentalist Islamic terror in Gaza and not Israel? Or do you blame Israel for the Muslim Brotherhood, the Sunni awakening, Mali, Libya, etc, etc, too?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:33 (twelve years ago)

I won't deny Israel had any hand in it, but let's use Occum's Razor. The entire region is radicalized. Probably the root cause is not Israel.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:34 (twelve years ago)

the roots of Islamic radicalization are myriad and deep - Israel's continued existence and combative policies are just a piece of the puzzle (more often than not Israel is just a convenient focal point for misdirected outrage about a whole host of issues: political and economic powerlessness, Western interference, etc.)

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:37 (twelve years ago)

I'm glad we agree.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:39 (twelve years ago)

knee-deep in the islamic radicalization of the entire middle east! yikes!

max, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:40 (twelve years ago)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f6/Kneedeepfunk.jpg/220px-Kneedeepfunk.jpg

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:41 (twelve years ago)

most other Islamic countries treat their Palestinian populations like shit, so I'm not going to pretend that Islamic outrage over Israel is all completely understandable concern for their fellow Muslims/Arabs (sure some of it is, but some of it is also self-serving for other reasons).

Nonetheless that doesn't mean that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians or handling of the issue has been justifiable either.

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:44 (twelve years ago)

hence my "they're all bad actors" stance

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:45 (twelve years ago)

I was looking at life expectancy in the West Bank and Gaza acc to the World Bank (I followed a link from another thread) and they are comparable to every other Muslim nation in the region (Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon). So even in the West Bank and Gaza they're living longer than Palestinian refugees in other countries. Israel is in like the top 10 for life expectancy. It's just one metric but I think it's a relevant one.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:49 (twelve years ago)

is that post missing some words or

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:50 (twelve years ago)

Which words do you think it's missing?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:51 (twelve years ago)

Life expectancy in the West Bank and Gaza are the same as / or better than every other Muslim country in the Middle East.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:54 (twelve years ago)

lol mordy's "intellectual rigor" including phrases like "historic homeland"

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:54 (twelve years ago)

Gukbe, I have yet to see an intelligent contribution from you in this thread on any topic ever.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:55 (twelve years ago)

Why don't you tell me a little bit more about all your Jewish friends, though?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:56 (twelve years ago)

haha :p

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:56 (twelve years ago)

(I should add, life expectancy in Qatar and UAE are outliers re my previous point.)

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:56 (twelve years ago)

if life expectancies are "comparable" to other countries, how does that mean refugees are "living longer" in the West Bank/Gaza than those other countries...? idgi

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:57 (twelve years ago)

I meant comparable to indicate within ~1 year. Comparable aka they can be closely compared. I'm pretty sure that's idiomatic correct. But u know, franchises taco bell etc.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:57 (twelve years ago)

idiomatically*

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:58 (twelve years ago)

must be great to wrap yourself up in nationalist/religious/cultural fervor or what have you but notions of 'historic homelands' throughout history havent really gone all that well

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:58 (twelve years ago)

though it's interesting to read here that Jews have fared better in Iran than Zoroastrians.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:59 (twelve years ago)

com·pa·ra·ble
/ˈkämp(ə)rəbəl/
Adjective
(of a person or thing) Able to be likened to another; similar.
Of equivalent quality; worthy of comparison.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:00 (twelve years ago)

Gukbe, Jews have lived in Hebron and throughout the West Bank from the Second Temple era until the modern era. You do know that Jews lived in Israel before '47, right?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:01 (twelve years ago)

Places where people have historically lived = historical homeland. But even putting that aside, do you believe that Arab countries should have the right to ban Jews from living there (eg I am not allowed to visit Dubai bc I am a Jew)?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:01 (twelve years ago)

Of course they did, and Germans lived in the Sudetenland etc...

I'm not at all saying that Jews shouldn't be allowed to live absolutely wherever they want and in peace, but notions of "historic homeland" to justify nationalism is where things get tricky. Obviously you're hella biased in these areas so there's not point arguing though.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:02 (twelve years ago)

well okay but if you're saying they're similar/equivalent you can't ALSO say that one is better than the other. which is what you said...

I don't really care about this, semantics etc

xp

"I was here first" arguments are uniformly specious and self-serving. everybody should be allowed to live wherever they want.

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:03 (twelve years ago)

give Israel back to the Canaanites etc

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:03 (twelve years ago)

Except that I didn't use 'historic homeland' to justify nationalism. I used it to justify why Jews should be allowed to live in the West Bank. xxp

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:03 (twelve years ago)

If you can't argue w/out misrepresenting my arguments, Gukbe, this conversation may be too above your comprehension level. Maybe just read and let other people argue your points for you?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:04 (twelve years ago)

I said comparable or better, Shakey, fyi.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:05 (twelve years ago)

lol what arguments when you're so far down the rabbit hole

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:05 (twelve years ago)

Right, that's what I mean, Gukbe. I legit think this is above your head.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:05 (twelve years ago)

I'm making an argument about why the settlements aren't a barrier to peace. My argument is that Jews living in the West Bank should be allowed to stay and be a part of any Palestinian State. They should be allowed to stay because it's their historic home and also because they should be able to live in peace wherever they want. There is no nationalist argument being made here.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:06 (twelve years ago)

You're trying to talk about settlements being justified because its a"historic homeland" and a wariness of a "two state solution" and you think what you're saying isn't in some way connected to nationalism?

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:06 (twelve years ago)

Read what I just wrote and tell me if you understood the argument.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:07 (twelve years ago)

I totally agree that Jews should be allowed to live in the West Bank and should be protected as everybody should, but dammit if "historic homeland" isn't some bullshit argument for that.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:07 (twelve years ago)

Great, so you agree with me you just didn't like the term 'historic homeland.' So ignore it.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:07 (twelve years ago)

No, you can't ignore it because it's rife with fucking problems.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:08 (twelve years ago)

All I meant is that Jews have always lived in these places so they should be allowed to continue to live in them. You're putting more meaning into the term than I intended.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:09 (twelve years ago)

If it's my fault for casually using a term w/ too much loaded language, I'll withdraw. If it's your fault bc you don't like discovering that you agree w/ my argument there's really nothing I can do for you there.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:10 (twelve years ago)

Well considering people around here get labelled anti-semites for not agreeing with Israeli policies I think you can take some time to examine the term and how use it.

I agree with you on a lot of things, Mordy, and I think you're relatively intelligent but as almost anything it comes down to picking and choosing which of your arguments are solid and which aren't.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:12 (twelve years ago)

"Jews should be allowed to live in Hebron where they have lived for thousands of years"

that they've lived there for thousands of years overrides any other political facts...amazes me

Euler, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:12 (twelve years ago)

Gukbe, no one has ever been labelled an anti-semite here for not agreeing with Israeli policies. If you believe that to be so I just don't know what to say. You're either being hyperbolic and you know it, or this stuff really is above your head.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:12 (twelve years ago)

there's no need to privelege historic precedent (in fact, it's downright dangerous and unhelpful to do so), everybody should be able to live anywhere

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:13 (twelve years ago)

Oh good, I'm glad someone is legit going to try to argue for a Palestinian State w/out any Jewish residents. Please tell me what liberal philosophy justifies that, Euler?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:13 (twelve years ago)

I know I get drunk and post shit at you and I'm sorry for that but I do read every link you put up in these threads because I think it's a worthwhile insight, but you have to understand that your bias clouds your judgement.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:13 (twelve years ago)

there's no need to privelege historic precedent (in fact, it's downright dangerous and unhelpful to do so), everybody should be able to live anywhere

― four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, May 8, 2013 6:13 PM (20 seconds ago) Bookmark

This is what my hungover half-brain was getting at.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:13 (twelve years ago)

I haven't argued for anything. I'm just amazed at that claim.

Euler, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:14 (twelve years ago)

It's not just historic precedence. There are Jews living there right now. Just as there have always been. It's contemporary precedence.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:14 (twelve years ago)

What is amazing about the claim that Jews should be allowed to live in Hebron if they want?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:14 (twelve years ago)

What are the other "political facts" that complicate that statement?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:15 (twelve years ago)

is your position, Mordy, that residency policies...anywhere...should allow anyone to live anywhere they want, in any nation?

Euler, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:16 (twelve years ago)

No, I believe countries can limit immigration however they want. My position is that Jews who currently live in the West Bank, and have lived there for thousands of years, should be allowed to continue to live there in a theoretical future Palestinian State.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:18 (twelve years ago)

people i'm descended from had lived in NE germany since forever. and ireland. i don't have the right to live in either of those places! i could try, but i'd have to play by the rules of the places as they are now, and i'd have to buy from an existing owner. if i showed up under the protection of the US military and none of that applied to me anymore via force, i don't think people in hamburg or donnegal would be happy. arguments based in descent strike me as very illiberal. excluding people from places based on descent is too! liberalism is only spottily deployed in this questions, and, against the arabs, their illiberalism ends up being a useful justification for treating/considering them illiberally.

do people have to BE liberal before they can HAVE the rights of liberalism? do they have them even if they'd take yours? idk i'm kind of off the reservation here

arab elites & populations have been and are pretty heavily antisemitic tho, no point even trying to deny that

anyway, re: "It's 2013, and we're knee-deep in the Islamic radicalization of the entire Middle East." -- i think you should go full zizek and blame the US for destroying communism

goole, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:19 (twelve years ago)

I agree with that position but I also don't think there are any thousand year old people living there. xpost

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:19 (twelve years ago)

And if the Palestinians want to limit future immigration to the West Bank they should get to the negotiating table, negotiate their borders, and then close them.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:19 (twelve years ago)

so should any state be required to permit anyone whose people have lived in a place within that state for thousands of years, to continue to live there?

Euler, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:20 (twelve years ago)

Almost all the settlements were legally purchased from the landowners.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:20 (twelve years ago)

Like all this horrific East Jerusalem building is legally purchased.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:21 (twelve years ago)

My position is that Jews who currently live in the West Bank, and have lived there for thousands of years,

wait wait wait - are you saying that there are specific Jewish families in the West Bank who can directly trace their lineage and residence back thousands of years cuz I call bullshit on that

(not that it matters in terms of their right to live there, from my perspective)

xp

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:21 (twelve years ago)

I believe so (though it was likely not continuous - after the Hebron massacre many Jews left the city and in the 40s iirc the English removed any Jews who were remaining) - but it's getting away from the central point which is that if there's no reason why Jews shouldn't be allowed to live in a future Palestinian state, why should Jewish settlement in the West Bank keep Abbas from negotiating borders with Bibi?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:27 (twelve years ago)

Or rather, the central point is an argument that the settlements are a bullshit excuse for why he won't negotiate. And the proof is that it doesn't make sense to keep from negotiating bc of settlements. And you'll remember that this entire conversation started because: http://news.yahoo.com/israel-groups-pm-halts-settlement-building-124648397.html

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:28 (twelve years ago)

Almost all the settlements were legally purchased from the landowners.

The "almost" here seems fairly crucial.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:29 (twelve years ago)

because Abbas wants Israel to abide by signed agreements and recognize a prospective Palestinian state's borders, rather than routinely allow/propagate the undermining of the PA's sovereignty...?

how is that so crazy

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:29 (twelve years ago)

Because the presence of Jews living in the West Bank only undermines the PA's sovereignty if you believe Jews won't be allowed to live in the future Palestinian State.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:30 (twelve years ago)

but fwiw I agree that it is ALSO because Abbas knows that negotiating will effectively destroy his own power. it's both. one reason is more legitimate than the other so that's the one he emphasizes in public

xp

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:31 (twelve years ago)

Because the presence of Jews living in the West Bank only undermines the PA's sovereignty if you believe Jews won't be allowed to live in the future Palestinian State.

ehhh I dunno about that, those Jews could quite legitimately be expected to put up armed resistance to any Palestinian State

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:33 (twelve years ago)

I mean in large part that's why they're there in the first place, to complicate/prevent a Palestinian State

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:33 (twelve years ago)

Maybe, but the possibility of armed insurrection by some of your future residents should not be an impediment to establishing your State. Israel has certainly dealt with resistance from Arabs within their borders. They didn't refuse to become a State until all the Arabs were removed.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:34 (twelve years ago)

I think that's an interpretation. They're there because they want to live where they want to live. Settlers around Jerusalem want affordable housing near the holiest city in the Jewish faith. Settlers in Hebron want to live in the second holiest city. Etc. They may also want these places to be part of an eventual Israeli State, but I suspect that is secondary to other pragmatic and religious considerations. Jews wanted to live (and did live) in those places before the State of Israel was established too.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:36 (twelve years ago)

That's why I mentioned historic homeland I guess. Because it's a historical fallacy to suggest that Jews only want to live in the West Bank bc of Nationalism. Jews have always wanted to live in the West Bank.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:36 (twelve years ago)

Mordy I would really like to see some backup for your claim that "almost all" of the settlement land was purchased.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:37 (twelve years ago)

Let me take a look around. I'm sure I've read that most Eastern Jerusalem settlement is purchased.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:39 (twelve years ago)

Jews wanted to live (and did live) in those places before the State of Israel was established too.

― Mordy, Wednesday, May 8, 2013 2:36 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

really, what about Modiin Illit? Were Jews living there "for thousands of years"?

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:40 (twelve years ago)

Silly religion always gumming up the works.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:40 (twelve years ago)

wanting the West Bank to be PART of the state of Israel is directly related to nationalism. let's not pretend like these Jews are cool with the West Bank or Jerusalem being part of a Palestinian State. because they are not.

and reducing the possibility of armed resistance could be seen as a requirement for a gesture in good faith from a state (Israel) that has routinely acted in bad faith. this is not some crazy hypothetical - those Jews in the settlements, with assistance from Israel, could conceivably poses an existential threat to Palestine. and that's kind of rough for a new nation to expect to deal with. Israel only managed to do it because they had the overwhelming military and financial support of the entirety of Western Europe and America.

xp

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:40 (twelve years ago)

Let me take a look around. I'm sure I've read that most Eastern Jerusalem settlement is purchased.

― Mordy, Wednesday, May 8, 2013 2:39 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I didn't think you were talking about east jerusalem, I thought you were talking about the west bank

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:40 (twelve years ago)

I guess the good news for those Jews, xp, is that they'll never have to worry about those places being part of a Palestinian State bc like you agreed, Abbas has plenty of other reasons for refusing to negotiate. Since Israel will never evacuate Modi'in Illit like they did Gaza, it'll never end up actually being in Palestine.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:43 (twelve years ago)

Israel could call his bluff, freeze settlements and try to remove the existing ones to re-establish the 1967 borders and then see what happens... but lol that will never happen either right, because that would (similar to Abbas) undermine Bibi's power base as well

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:45 (twelve years ago)

Why doesn't Israel allow Palestinians to freely settle in Modi'in Illit?

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:45 (twelve years ago)

that seems to be one of the crucial questions you are missing

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:45 (twelve years ago)

I don't see how it's relevant - let's say they're keeping them out bc they want to annex the area and don't want any new Palestinian Arabs in Israel. From Abbas' POV it shouldn't matter re negotiating. If he really believed in having a Palestinian State, and agreed that Jews should be allowed to live in the Palestinian State, he should negotiate over Modi'in Illit no matter how many Jews are in it.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:52 (twelve years ago)

From my POV, and I've said this before, I don't care if the Palestinians get a state. I think Israel should annex the entire West Bank, enfranchise all the Arabs there, and be done with the whole drama. But I don't care about Palestinian Arab nationalism. If you do care about Palestinian Arab nationalism, like if you're Abbas, and you want a Palestinian State, why would you refuse to negotiate because there are some Jews on your land? Establish your borders and the Jews will either move bc they're angry, or rebel and you'll have to keep the peace, or they'll become citizens of your new state. The only reason you'd refuse to negotiate is bc you believe Jewish cities are incompatible w/ a Palestinian State.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:54 (twelve years ago)

I find that line of argument really bizarre, it's ISRAEL that doesn't want Modiin Illit included in a future Palestinian state. If Jews were just moving into the territories and peacefully living among their arab neighbors we wouldn't be having the same discussion.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:55 (twelve years ago)

It's not like the Israelis are going to settle less while you're not negotiating. And if Gaza wasn't enough of a good will gesture there will be no gesture good enough.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:55 (twelve years ago)

You'd be right if Abbas were willing to negotiate and Bibi said only w/ the precondition that Modiin isn't on the table. But that's not the situation.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:56 (twelve years ago)

It's actually the reverse.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:56 (twelve years ago)

https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/commentaryanalysis/want-to-stop-irans-takeover-of-syria

The last few days have seen a grit-teeth conversation among Syrian dissidents about what to make of Israel objectively aiding their cause. They needn’t disturb their consciences overmuch because the IAF looks right past them and doesn’t even see Syria as an independent country anymore, only an emerging Iranian suzerainty in the Levant. Dr. Shimon Shapira, a retired brigadier general of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), has written a paper unambiguously titled “Iran’s Plans to Take Over Syria,” which emphasizes comments made by Mehdi Taaib, the head of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s think tank, that Syria is “35th district of Iran,” tantamount to Khuzestan, the Arab-populated district of Iran. The architect of this grand strategy is Major General Qasem Suleimani, the commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corp-Quds Force, who, in an ambitious operation named for himself, has begun the training and financing of 150,000-strong sectarian militia in Syria known as Jaysh al Sha’bi, drawn from fighters from Iran, Lebanese Hezbollah, Iraq, and even the Gulf states. This Basiji-style irregular army, as well as older Syrian formations such as the minorities-staffed Popular Committees and the shabiha (both of which also receive the mullahs’ largesse), stand to inherit the responsibilities of the Syrian Army, and further Iranian interest, in the event of regime collapse.

Whole thing worth reading imo.

Mordy , Wednesday, 8 May 2013 22:07 (twelve years ago)

Moreover, the presence in Syria of agents from Iran’s Law Enforcement Forces, a sub unit of the Iranian Interior Ministry answerable to the Supreme National Security Council (and thus Khamenei himself), suggests that Tehran views Syria much the same way that Moscow views Georgia: as a domestic rather than foreign concern.

Mordy , Wednesday, 8 May 2013 22:08 (twelve years ago)

To control the skies, you must first control the electromagnetic spectrum. This is now IAF doctrine.

"First you get the electromagnetic spectrum, then you get the skies...then you get the women"

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 22:19 (twelve years ago)

What's the Iranian gov't policy on Alawites?

Gukbe, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 22:22 (twelve years ago)

off topic: why am i seeing a gold star next to mordy's name (only the last two posts)? is this an ILX coding thing?

Punxsutawney PiL (brownie), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 22:39 (twelve years ago)

haha ok, nevermind

Punxsutawney PiL (brownie), Wednesday, 8 May 2013 22:40 (twelve years ago)

FP do the best slideshows:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/08/photos_syria_civil_war_cultural_heritage_sites#0

Mordy , Wednesday, 8 May 2013 23:59 (twelve years ago)

http://i.imgur.com/QtG3iy1.jpg

there is no special cathexis with mini fried donuts (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Thursday, 9 May 2013 00:13 (twelve years ago)

wait what, I also see the gold star by mordy's name, what is that

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 9 May 2013 00:23 (twelve years ago)

http://i.imgur.com/TJ8r3Yi.jpg

there is no special cathexis with mini fried donuts (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Thursday, 9 May 2013 00:26 (twelve years ago)

if we're talking about jews leaving other areas in the region for israel, this deserves some mention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%9351_Baghdad_bombings

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Thursday, 9 May 2013 05:39 (twelve years ago)

BBC this morning was talking about how disaffected Free Syrian Army rebels were switching over to al-Nusra Front bc of their frustrations over the West not equipping them w/ weapons. this kind of thing has solidified my belief that the United States (and other Western countries) don't really have the option to not be involved. Even refraining from equipping the rebels is a political choice w/ ramifications. (Which isn't to say that the US should arm the rebels - I don't believe we should. But isolationists who claim we have the option to not get involved are naive about the nature of geopolitical power.)

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 13:54 (twelve years ago)

if that unproven claim "deserves some mention" then so does all of the background in the article, e.g.

By 1936, there was an increased sense of insecurity among the Jews of Iraq. The rise of pan-Arab nationalism coincided with the second King Faisal's admiration of Nazism. In 1941 after the government of pro-Nazi Rashid Ali was defeated, his soldiers and policemen, aided by the Arab mob, started the Farhud ("violent dispossession").[3] A government commission later reported that at least 180 Jews had been killed and 240 wounded, 586 Jewish businesses pillaged, and 99 Jewish homes burned.[4] Jewish sources claimed much higher casualties.

I don't know whether it happened or not, but the anti-zionist historians promoting the theory have an interest in delegitimizing claims of Jewish oppression or lack of safety in Arab countries. I don't think the bombings would overshadow the fact that Jews were indeed becoming less welcome all over the region due in part to the rise of zionism but also because of burgeonining Arab nationalism.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 9 May 2013 13:57 (twelve years ago)

You know this guy was a big fan of the Nazis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 14:01 (twelve years ago)

And yeah, I'm very skeptical of the claim that the Mossad killed Jews in order to encourage immigration to Israel.

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 14:04 (twelve years ago)

Syrian President Bashar Assad said, "Syria will give everything to Hezbollah in return for support of the government in Damascus," Lebanese newspaper "Al-Akhbar", affiliated with Hezbollah reported.

Assad reportedly added that Syria would adopt Hezbollah's methods against Israel. (Ynet)

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:31 (twelve years ago)

Oh, this thread makes me so sad, I don't know why I read it, except for interesting, depressing, links.

the so-called socialista (dowd), Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:32 (twelve years ago)

http://baruchsbreeze.blogspot.co.il/2013/05/high-hopes-for-peace-smashed-story-of.html

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:55 (twelve years ago)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-and-china-ink-400-million-trade-agreement/

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 21:36 (twelve years ago)

oh shit i know the perfect thread for that link

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 21:43 (twelve years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/09/how_kerry_got_played_by_putin_syria

As the Russians like to remind the world, nowhere in the Geneva Protocol is there a demand that Assad must resign or even promise not to take power again in future. John Kerry appears to agree: In a joint press conference in Moscow with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, the secretary of state offered this stark reappraisal of President Barack Obama's repeated insistence that Assad quit the scene. "[I]t's impossible for me as an individual to understand how Syria could possibly be governed in the future by the man who has committed the things that we know have taken place," he said. "But ... I'm not going to decide that tonight, and I'm not going to decide that in the end."

Mordy , Thursday, 9 May 2013 23:39 (twelve years ago)

I'm going to be in israel next week and all this stuff is making me a little nervous right now. But then there's probably such a thing like 3-6 months out of every year.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Friday, 10 May 2013 00:51 (twelve years ago)

I wouldn't worry about it. Those iron domes are pretty impressive and Assad doesn't seem so keen to start shit with Israel.

Mordy , Friday, 10 May 2013 01:11 (twelve years ago)

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/s300-syria/

Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, ended nervous Washington and Pentagon speculation today by telling the ITAR-TASS news agency that the Kremlin isn’t actually going to sell the S-300 air defense missile to Assad. Whatever other arms deals Russia will honor with Syria, the S-300 won’t be included.

Mordy , Friday, 10 May 2013 21:38 (twelve years ago)

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_TURKEY_EXPLOSION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-05-11-10-32-12

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Turkey's interior minister says the death toll in the explosions in a town across the border from Syria is around 40, according to private NTV television.

Muammer Guler said Saturday around 100 other people were injured in the two car bomb explosions and that 29 of them are in serious condition.

The blasts raised fears that Syria's brutal civil war violence was crossing into its neighbor, but Turkey's prime minister hasn't ruled out that it could be related to peace talks with Kurdish rebels.

Mordy , Saturday, 11 May 2013 15:00 (twelve years ago)

Turkey now says evidence points to the bombing being Syria spillover. Meanwhile in Egypt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/12/world/middleeast/egypt-arrests-3-in-plot-to-attack-cities-and-an-embassy.html

Mordy , Sunday, 12 May 2013 15:38 (twelve years ago)

Will never happen, but it's a great headline.

Meanwhile in Syria:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/13/six-ways-assad-has-turned-the-tide-in-syria/

curmudgeon, Monday, 13 May 2013 18:05 (twelve years ago)

On at least one occasion, the Syrian conflict has cost an Iranian military commander his life. In mid-February, a shadowy IRGC officer responsible for overseeing Iranian reconstruction projects in Lebanon who went by the names Hessam Khoshnevis and Hassan Shateri was killed on the road from Damascus to Beirut. Iran put out the story that Israel assassinated their man, but Western and Arab officials told me they had seen reliable intelligence reports that it was a Syrian rebel ambush.

It makes strategic sense but it's still lol that they rush to blame an assassination on Israel rather than admit the rebels did it.

Mordy , Monday, 13 May 2013 23:43 (twelve years ago)

so glad you know what happened there

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 13 May 2013 23:47 (twelve years ago)

You're right, there's nothing certain, but considering the notice that the last few Israeli interventions in Syria have gotten it seems like a pretty compelling narrative. Also Cambanis seems to know what he's talking about (I'd like to read this.

Mordy , Monday, 13 May 2013 23:52 (twelve years ago)

End parenthesis).

Mordy , Monday, 13 May 2013 23:52 (twelve years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/13/most_disgusting_atrocity_syrian_civil_war_rebel_eat_heart

Abu Sakkar is just one man, and there are many other armed fighters in Syria who reject such sectarian actions and would be horrified by the mutilation and desecration of a corpse -- let alone an act of cannibalism. But he is a commander in a decisive battle in Syria -- hardly a marginal figure.

Syria's sectarian turn presents a danger not just for Syria itself, but for the stability of the entire region, which has grown increasingly entangled in the Syrian morass. Lebanon has seen Shiite villages shelled from Syria, Hezbollah's involvement in Syria has caused some radical Sunni clerics in Lebanon to respond with their own call to jihad in Syria, and deadly violence sporadically breaks out between the pro-Assad Alawite neighbourhood of Jabal Mohsin and its hardline Sunni neighbors in the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli.

Mordy , Tuesday, 14 May 2013 01:55 (twelve years ago)

That gold star makes it even more obvious when Mordy accounts for 17 of the last 23 posts to this thread.

Aimless, Tuesday, 14 May 2013 02:31 (twelve years ago)

It's always been that way!

Mordy , Tuesday, 14 May 2013 03:06 (twelve years ago)

rolling mordle east thread 2013

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 14 May 2013 03:47 (twelve years ago)

http://world.time.com/2013/05/14/we-will-slaughter-all-of-them-an-interview-with-the-man-behind-the-syrian-atrocity-video/

News sites around the world have shown Khalid al Hamad sink his teeth into what appears to be the lung of a dead Syrian government soldier. His fellow rebels have called for him to be arrested or killed for the act. Human rights groups have condemned him. But Al Hamad has no regrets.

In an interview conducted via Skype in the early hours of May 14 al Hamad explained to TIME what caused him to cut out the soldier’s organs: “We opened his cell phone and I found a clip of a woman and her two daughters fully naked and he was humiliating them, and sticking a stick here and there.”

goole, Tuesday, 14 May 2013 14:34 (twelve years ago)

surely they're not all bad. or not that bad.

goole, Tuesday, 14 May 2013 14:34 (twelve years ago)

I wonder what his skype handle is

I will forlornly return to my home planet soon (dandydonweiner), Tuesday, 14 May 2013 14:55 (twelve years ago)

I'm happy I haven't seen anyone try to argue yet that eating your enemy's heart is just a Western taboo and no worse than just killing them (cf chemical weapons taboo discussion).

Mordy , Tuesday, 14 May 2013 18:24 (twelve years ago)

its basically taboo everywhere. but also basically everywhere, historically, its the sort of thing that people would do in times of truly depraved war precisely b/c it is a taboo. in some regards not all that different from ear necklaces or scalping, albeit somewhat freakier.

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Thursday, 16 May 2013 03:33 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/world/middleeast/tunneling-kfc-to-gazans-craving-the-world-outside.html?_r=0

How they get KFC chicken in Gaza

curmudgeon, Thursday, 16 May 2013 20:13 (twelve years ago)

Mr. Efrangi may not have the fast-food market to himself much longer. A Gaza businessman who asked to be identified only by his nickname, Abu Ali, to avoid tipping off his competitors, said he applied for a franchise from KFC’s Middle East dealer, Americana Group, two months ago. Adeeb al-Bakri, who owns four KFC and Pizza Hut franchises in the West Bank, said he had been authorized to open a restaurant in Gaza and was working out the details.

Mordy , Thursday, 16 May 2013 21:32 (twelve years ago)

Top news: U.S. President Barack Obama again ruled out unilateral U.S. military action in Syria at a press conference with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan yesterday. "It's not going to be something that the United States does by itself. And I don't think anybody in the region would think that U.S. unilateral actions … would bring about a better outcome," the president said, promising to "keep increasing the pressure on the Assad regime and working with the Syrian opposition.”

Erdogan's visit is aimed at convincing the U.S. to escalate it's involvement in toppling Bashar al-Assad's government. The prime minister favors the creation of a no-fly zone to shield civilians and rebel fighters in Northern Syria.

U.S. officials also said on Thursday that Russia has shipped advanced anti-ship cruise missiles to Assad's government. The radar-equipped missiles could theoretically be used by the Syrian government to counter an internationally imposed naval embargo or no-fly zone.

The number of refugees fleeing the conflict has now likely exceeded 1.5 million with more than 80,000 killed.

Mordy , Friday, 17 May 2013 14:23 (twelve years ago)

Egyptian police have sealed off the Rafah border crossing with the Gaza Strip in protest at the abduction of seven security personnel in Sinai.

Reports say police locked the gates and placed barbed wire at the entrance.

Rafah is the only regular exit from Gaza for 1.6m Palestinians living there. Other crossings into Israel are allowed only in exceptional cases.

The three policemen and four soldiers were captured while travelling in the peninsula, east of El Arish.

Mordy , Friday, 17 May 2013 20:11 (twelve years ago)

Greetings from tel aviv y'all. Mordy I have been reading a bit about the hashomer hazair strain of Zionism and I wonder if it isn't sort of similar to your views.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Sunday, 19 May 2013 20:44 (twelve years ago)

hey hurting - enjoy your trip! where are you planning on visiting while you're there? have you ever been to haifa before? it's my wife's favorite city in the world; the bahaii gardens are gorgeous.

and yes, i think that's a little anachronistic but i'm definitely on a similar page to socialist-zionism; there were so many socialist yiddish zionist camps + youth groups in pre-war Europe and I remember seeing documentaries about them when I was studying yiddish. it was a pretty vibrant political movement but i think mostly marginalized now?

Mordy , Sunday, 19 May 2013 21:07 (twelve years ago)

Honest question: what, in today's world, can be perceived or called socialist-zionism? I googled it, read this, which I get. But does it have an opinion on a two state solution?

The passage in that link about jews being forced to immigrate to Palestine because of capitalism confuses me.

Le Bateau Ivre, Sunday, 19 May 2013 21:31 (twelve years ago)

Hezbollah takes Qasayir: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/05/2013519124646578835.html

LBI: I'm not sure how to answer your question. There have been numerous organizations that could be classified as socialist-zionism and they each probably have their own take on the two state solution. Shouldn't be so hard to research a couple, though, and get some varying opinions?

Mordy , Sunday, 19 May 2013 22:27 (twelve years ago)

Fair enough. I've only heard about it tonight. I (mis)took it for a broad movement with one agenda/ideas etc. But apparantly not.

Le Bateau Ivre, Sunday, 19 May 2013 22:31 (twelve years ago)

Fwiw hashomer hazair favored a binational (Jewish and Arab) state, at least per 1948 afaik. That was part of why I thought mordy might identify with them. I'm in the middle of rich Cohen's the avengers, a gripping if borderline novelized story of Jewish resistance fighters in the villa ghetto who were part of hashomer.

Mordy, I'm not really doing much sightseeing this time around, the purpose of the trip is for my wife's extended family to meet my daughter, and otherwise just to relax. I've seen the old city a few times, Masada, king David's tomb, the digs, Haifa, Eilat, the galilee, etc on other trips.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Sunday, 19 May 2013 22:44 (twelve years ago)

Sorry vilna ghetto typing from phone. Mordy don't suppose you have any mobile Internet suggestions, Verizon's global plan blows

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Sunday, 19 May 2013 22:46 (twelve years ago)

i haven't read that cohen book but i have read his 'tough jews' about american jewish gangsters.

Mordy , Sunday, 19 May 2013 22:46 (twelve years ago)

i don't. sorry :(

Mordy , Sunday, 19 May 2013 22:47 (twelve years ago)

Yeah his thinking doesn't seem very nuanced and he takes a lot of liberties. But it's a great read. Also reading a book I found in our host's library called the struggle for Palestine by j c hurewitz. It's a pretty good dispassionate analysis of the 36 to 48 period that takes into account the interests and grievances of all parties.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Sunday, 19 May 2013 22:59 (twelve years ago)

Oh btw mordy also in relation to your china Israel trade agreement link, we have been hearing a bit about the planned Eilat railway which is tentatively to be financed by china. Very interesting in terms of its potential ramifications for US-Israel relations (more in the long run) and Israel Egypt relations (since the freight line would compete with the Suez Canal)

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Sunday, 19 May 2013 23:03 (twelve years ago)

yeah, as i understand it (and include all relevant caveats here) w/ the regional uncertainty and the new israeli oilfields, israel is becoming more attractive as an energy trading partner for russia + china. not to mention that china, india, etc have long wanted to do arms deals w/ israel but they've been nixed by the united states. for ppl uncertain about why the us partners so closely w/ israel - in addition to regional security issues eg syria - this helps illustrate what is at stake in that relationship.

Mordy , Sunday, 19 May 2013 23:07 (twelve years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VnUQGJxA5Cg

Israeli jeep in Qasayir being used as proof that Israel is backing the Syrian rebels. Apparently said truck is no longer used by the IDF and was likely left behind during the Lebanon withdrawal in 2000.

Mordy , Monday, 20 May 2013 16:47 (twelve years ago)

"The order given by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to freeze construction in West Bank settlements may pave the way to a thaw in the frozen peace process, but it does not mean that Israel has acceded to Palestinian, Arab, or international demands. Quite the opposite. It constitutes a settlement trick... At the same time the so-called 'Ministerial Committee for Legislation' approved the outlines of the 'Prawer Law' that will bring about the expropriation of hundreds of thousands of acres and the uprooting of 35,000 Arab citizens from their homes and lands in the Negev. The significance is that the Netanyahu government has not decided to freeze settlement, but has transferred it to the Negev. This will bring about an explosion and a confrontation with the Palestinians in the interior (i.e., Israeli Arabs in Israel).

[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, May 8, 2013]

What?? Building settlements in the Negev? How dare they!

Mordy , Monday, 20 May 2013 17:21 (twelve years ago)

Maybe you zionist devils should start a rolling israel thread. just brainstormin

turds (Hungry4Ass), Monday, 20 May 2013 17:50 (twelve years ago)

I started this thread specifically bc I think that these countries are closely linked together (for instance Syrian conflict involves Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Turkey, Jordan, SA + Qatar, etc) and I thought threads for each country was making it difficult to discuss these broader regional trends.

Mordy , Monday, 20 May 2013 17:52 (twelve years ago)

your harshing my rolling qatar thread

turds (Hungry4Ass), Monday, 20 May 2013 17:57 (twelve years ago)

bummer

Mordy , Monday, 20 May 2013 17:59 (twelve years ago)

i like this thread

goole, Monday, 20 May 2013 18:17 (twelve years ago)

do not feed the hungry4troll

I basically like this thread too. It does still feel a bit Israel-centric (i.e. even when other countries are discussed it often has some indirect relationship to Israel), but I guess there's no one around to broaden it.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Monday, 20 May 2013 20:08 (twelve years ago)

obviously it's written in sterile us government style but you can generate a report in the International Religious Freedom Report for 2012 that just displays all the MENA countries (and in hindsight that's actually what i should've called this thread) so you can read through all panoramic-interest style. a lot of it is concerned w/ legislative advancements + the enshrinement (or lack thereof) in constitution/statutes/etc.

Mordy , Monday, 20 May 2013 23:13 (twelve years ago)

I remember hearing a This American Life segment once about how Israeli culture has this thing about it being extremely nagl to be a "sucker", or for anyone to ever get one over on you, or whatever; I'm sure they drew some parallel to the peace process in the segment, but it's really stuck with me ever since as a weird little just-so story for the whole thing…everybody (f.s.v.o. everybody) wants a lasting peace, a viable two-state solution, etc., but nobody wants to be the guy (the PM, the MK, whoever) who ultimately makes it happen…because it's gonna make them look like a sucker. idk, probably bullshit, but I often think of it when the whole awful conflict appears to be about nothing, as it often does.

0808ɹƃ (silby), Wednesday, 22 May 2013 06:35 (twelve years ago)

(not strictly 'middle east') A huge blow for the UKIP, I'm sure

In one hard-knock British city, a secret Muslim donor helps save a synagogue

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 22 May 2013 16:43 (twelve years ago)

Unrelated but important:

Top news: A governing body of the Iranian government issued its list of approved presidential candidates and excluded two leading contenders -- Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and Esfandiar Rahim Mashaei -- a decision that all but guarantees that the next Iranian president will be drawn from a conservatives slate of candidates considered close to Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Mordy , Wednesday, 22 May 2013 16:46 (twelve years ago)

https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/commentaryanalysis/the-imminent-hezbollah-nusra-war

Mordy , Thursday, 23 May 2013 02:15 (twelve years ago)

or maybe al-nusra can't finish this war, let alone start a new one in lebanon:
http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/is-jabhat-al-nosra-breaking-apart

Mordy , Thursday, 23 May 2013 02:21 (twelve years ago)

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21578046-turkish-government-under-attack-home-its-assertive-policy-towards-syria-explosive

ERDOGAN had better not set foot here, it’s all his fault, government resign,” shouted Yusuf, a teenager standing near a mourning tent in Reyhanli, where twin car-bomb explosions on May 11th killed at least 51 people, wounded scores more and left a once sleepy border town looking like war-racked Syria. Locals blame the interventionist Syrian policies of Turkey’s prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, for the attacks that ripped out the commercial heart of Reyhanli, until recently a bastion of Mr Erdogan’s Justice and Development (AK) party.

Reyhanli and nearby villages are home to tens of thousands of Syrian refugees and opposition fighters who have poured into Turkey since 2011. Within minutes of the blasts locals vented their rage at the Syrians, prompting many to flee. “The government should never have allowed refugees to live in the towns and least of all so close to the border,” said Hasan Ozdemir, editor of a local newspaper whose windows were blown out. “Arming the opposition fighters and providing them haven, that was the worst blunder of all.”

Mordy , Thursday, 23 May 2013 04:13 (twelve years ago)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hand-drawn-map-shows-what-olmert-offered-for-peace/

Mordy , Thursday, 23 May 2013 12:24 (twelve years ago)

http://www.aawsat.net/2013/05/article55302497

Mordy , Thursday, 23 May 2013 23:48 (twelve years ago)

http://www.thetower.org/exclusive-the-deal-the-palestinians-rejected-the-history-that-was-never-made/

“In the last meeting I brought a big map, like the size of this whole table,” recalls Olmert. “With colors for all the regions that go over to us and the reverse. We would receive 6.3%, they would get 5.8%, but they also get a safe passage in a tunnel between Gaza and the West Bank that was the equivalent in territory of the remaining half percent. Territories that were considered no-man’s-land before 1967 would be divided 50-50. Ariel would stay with us, and a network of tunnels would go under the Trans Samaria Highway to ease the passage of Palestinians in that area. Similarly for the areas of A-Zaim and Hizmeh, since I was insisting on E-1. There would be a tunnel that would enable Palestinians to have quick passage between Bethlehem and Ramallah, despite our control over the territory, and so their territorial contiguity would not be impaired.”

“At the same time, I gave Abbas territories in the Beit Sh’ean Valley, next to Tirat Zvi, not far from Afula, in the area of Lachish, in the area of Katna (next to Har Adar), the northern Judean desert and the area around the Gaza Strip. I completely gave up on having an Israeli presence in the Jordan Valley. That was because I could protect the line of the Jordan River through an international military force on the other side of the Jordan RIver. There was no opposition on the Palestinian side to our having a presence in warning stations along the mountain range.”

TheTower.org: But you essentially gave up on Israeli sovereignty on the Temple Mount?

Olmert: “Correct, I proposed a compromise on sovereignty over the Temple Mount. There would be no sovereignty for anyone else. There would be the joint administration of the five states.”...

TheTower.org: So what did Abu Mazen say about that proposal? Did he accept your ideas?

Olmert: ”[In the meeting] he didn’t say he opposed my idea. It was clear to me that he agreed. He said to me, ‘Listen, it makes a very serious impression.’ I said to him, ‘Come on, let’s initial the map. In a day or two we’ll fly to the U.S. [for the annual UN General Assembly meetings which were taking place the following week] and convene the U.N. Security Council and tell them that it’s a peace deal between us. The whole Security Council will approve it, and then we will go the General Assembly and ask for a vote. About 190 out of the 193 states will vote for it, maybe except for Iran and Syria. After that we’ll convene a joint session of Congress and we’ll appear everywhere together. We’ll gather a summit of all the world’s leaders at the connecting point of the Holy Basin. They will all come.’ He said to me again, ‘It’s serious, it’s serious, but I have to be sure. I want the map experts from both sides to sit together because I’m not an expert. We called over Turjeman and Saeb, I said to Shalom that he should call Danny Tirza, our map expert, so they should sit together the next day.”

But the next morning came the fateful call from Abbas’ top aide, Saab Erekat, saying there would be no meeting to finalize the peace deal because the Palestinians “had forgotten that Abbas had to go to Amman,” Olmert recalled. Erekat said they would meet the following week. “I’ve been waiting ever since.”

Asked this week to explain why Abbas would not have accepted such a sweeping offer, a senior Palestinian official told TheTower.org that Olmert’s proposal was not acceptable to Abbas, who has been quoted elsewhere saying, “the gaps were wide.”

Mordy , Friday, 24 May 2013 15:20 (twelve years ago)

Abbas will never get a deal like that from Bibi, and probably ever again. This is probably where the peace process died for real ^

Mordy , Friday, 24 May 2013 15:22 (twelve years ago)

The few times I've been here (Israel), I've had a hard time getting a handle on relations between Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs and also on the subject of race in Israel. On the whole, everywhere I've gone society is very homogenous, although barriers between Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jews seem to have diminished greatly - marriages between the two are very common, there are many more sephardim successful in business and government, etc. The Ethiopian Jews are not very visible in the main parts of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, although in Mevaseret, a suburb of Jerusalem, we stayed with a relative who lives near an immigration center, and on the playgrounds of the neighborhood Ethiopian children played together with Ashkenazic and Sephardic children. I have seen a few (non-Ethiopian-looking) black people in Tel Aviv -- could be African guest workers or tourists or Jewish residents for all I know. I have seen few Arab people, although there were Arab families eating in the seaside fish restaurant we ate in our first night, and there were a couple of Arab nurses and doctors working in the Tel Aviv hospital where we had to take K (she ran a high fever but is ok now). My wife is now reading the memoir of a Palestinian (I don't know the name) and admitted to me that it is literally the first time in her life she ever read a book from a Palestinian's viewpoint, meaning that until age 16 (when she left the country) there was nothing in her education along those lines. It may be different now, I don't know, and it may also be that had she gone to university in Israel there would be more discourse about the Palestinians as people and not just as a perceived security threat.

Arabs live almost entirely in separate towns from Jews with a few exceptions, e.g. Jaffa/Yafo, which is basically connected to Tel Aviv, is more mixed. The impression I get is that Jewish Israelis do go to the Arab towns to eat in restaurants and buy things -- one friend said "I don't think they really like us, but I don't think they mind us coming and spending money in their towns." I don't know if there is as much reciprocal travel by Arabs into Jewish areas -- seems like sort of a privilege thing, although as I said, I have seen Arab families dining and shopping in "Jewish" Tel Aviv (which is also, of course, sort of a liberal island in Israel).

Anyway, I think it's a complex situation -- you can't exactly say "apartheid" because it's not like Arabs aren't allowed in certain restaurants or areas (the ones with Israeli citizenship), and there are Arabs at Israeli universities and in government, but at the same time, there is very much a program of trying to make sure Israel maintains its Jewish national identity, and there is also plenty of de facto racism against Arabs, and there is not much effort that I can see toward improving Jewish-Arab relations, at least compared to the U.S. where racial understanding is sort of a big part of our educational agenda.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Friday, 24 May 2013 19:11 (twelve years ago)

Interesting that you say people don't necessarily seek out, or confront through education, the different perspectives. When I was there, albeit briefly, I heard a lot of sympathy on both sides (isn't it awful how poorly maintained Arab villages are, isn't it sad how Israeli families near the border aren't safe, etc) but not a great deal of empathy. The kind of dialogue the Peres Peace Centre fosters is a great model for redressing that.

хуто-хуторянка (ShariVari), Friday, 24 May 2013 19:36 (twelve years ago)

btw also drove on 6 (the massive relatively recent toll highway going most of the north-south length of Israel) and it's a bit strange because big parts of it literally run along the wall. And it's not like Berlin where you presumably couldn't see what's on the other side, because the terrain is hilly, so there are points where you clearly see cities and towns in the West Bank over the wall, like there you are driving on what looks like the NJ turnpike and you're maybe hundreds of feet away from people living under occupation.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Friday, 24 May 2013 19:56 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/sunday-review/what-mideast-crisis-israelis-have-moved-on.html

― Mordy , Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:25 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Interesting, although I wouldn't make much of the fact that people didn't discuss the Palestinians at a wedding -- would you expect people to discuss any of the US's national problems at an American wedding? Most Israelis participate in some indirect way in the occupation through their military service -- not only as young people but ongoing as part of their reserve duties -- and a significant minority actually participate directly, e.g. by doing patrols in the territories, working at checkpoints, etc. I wouldn't equate Israelis wanting to put this out of their mind with it not being on their mind. But it's true that Israelis seem to have a sense of invincibility and a lack of urgency to find a solution.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 15:16 (twelve years ago)

I think the Palestinians have always had more to lose than the Israelis, even before the Arab Spring, second intifada, Oslo failure, etc turned the Israeli populace off to peace.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 15:25 (twelve years ago)

I think the Palestinians and the surrounding countries may be playing a longer game than the Israelis -- doesn't mean they're winning, but of course there are the demographic problems, declining support for Israel in the US and Europe, etc. The whole situation is so unprecedented -- longest military occupation in history iirc, by far, unless you count China/Tibet.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 15:49 (twelve years ago)

There's no way that's true unless you're claiming that eg English colonialism in India (1612–1947?) wasn't a military occupation?

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 15:55 (twelve years ago)

By contrast, Israel has been occupying the West Bank from 1967 to 2013.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 15:56 (twelve years ago)

Or how about Ireland? 1180 to 1922.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 15:59 (twelve years ago)

Occupation doesn't claim sovereignty and is explicitly temporary - otherwise it's colonialism / annexation.

хуто-хуторянка (ShariVari), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:02 (twelve years ago)

In which case Tibet is not an occupation.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:05 (twelve years ago)

No, China claims sovereignty there so it isn't.

хуто-хуторянка (ShariVari), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:06 (twelve years ago)

fair enough

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:07 (twelve years ago)

From a realpolitik perspective, the only leverage the Palestinians/Arab nations have over Israel is the threat of declining legitimacy abroad (but only a threat - Israel's major trading partners continue to trade w/ them, and if anything, they've expanded their import/export profile over the last few years). They don't have any military or (imo, tho this is contested) demographic leverage. By contrast, if they wait too long (and arguably they have already waited too long), they have the threat of not getting a state at all. They should be rushing to the negotiating table.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:13 (twelve years ago)

It's pretty historically unique to have an occupied people that not only have rejected numerous peace deals to end the occupation, but actually refuse to negotiate over ending the occupation without preconditions being fulfilled.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:16 (twelve years ago)

They should be rushing to the negotiating table.

Before Israel builds more settlements in occupied areas and adds more preconditions to negotiations

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:21 (twelve years ago)

Bibi's current position is negotiations without any preconditions. But yes, before Israel builds more settlements.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:21 (twelve years ago)

From a practical perspective I think you're right, but I think Palestinians are ambivalent at best about accepting an impractical and impotent "state" cut up by existing Israeli settlements. I think there are a lot of Palestinians who would take this anyway just to end the occupation, but there are plenty who feel that they'd rather "wait out Israel" in a sense, rather than accept a kind of "we won, you lost" consolation prize state.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:26 (twelve years ago)

I agree that they have refused taking deals / negotiating out of a 'wait out Israel' strategy. I just think it's a really terrible strategy.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:27 (twelve years ago)

The desire not to accept humiliation is powerful.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:31 (twelve years ago)

Which is why they will never have a state.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:33 (twelve years ago)

Even allowing Israel to keep the '67 borders, or give up the right of return, would be a humiliation to someone who claims territory from the Nakba, or wants a full withdrawal to '67 lines. By contrast, though, imagine if Putin had offered an Olmert-style deal to Chechnya, or PRC to Tibet; obviously they'd take it because they don't have illusions that they can wait out these powers. Palestine has been given poor advice by the Arab League imho; they've been told that if they hang on they can have anything and that Israel is only temporary.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:35 (twelve years ago)

(I should say - keep the '67 borders w/ land swaps.)

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:36 (twelve years ago)

You think Israel can occupy indefinitely? The difference with Chechnya and Tibet is that the Palestinians explicitly have international law on their side.

хуто-хуторянка (ShariVari), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:37 (twelve years ago)

Hurting otm. That desire is really powerful. But one can understand why. After decades of occupation having to accept a state 'designed' by Israel's wants and needs... I don't know if I would accept it if I were a Palestine tbh.

Mordy, I don't think it is fair to say "Which is why they will never have a state." Unless you indeed, too, believe Israel would only agree to a Palestinian state if it is completely by their rules. Which isn't fair or productive either. Takes two to tango.

xxxps

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:38 (twelve years ago)

I think Israel can occupy the West Bank indefinitely. Not only that, I think we're less than a decade away from Israel annexing the West Bank.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:39 (twelve years ago)

And I think that the military occupier and victor in a war gets to set terms tbh. Obviously there's give and take, but look at that Olmert offer I posted above and tell me the Palestinians could expect anything better than that?

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:40 (twelve years ago)

Like, from my perspective it seems like the Palestinians want to negotiate like they're the ones occupying Israel and doing Israel a favor coming to the negotiating table. That's not the position they're in and it's not helping them get a state.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:41 (twelve years ago)

The occupier, suppressor gets to set the terms?! From a 'they have the upper hand in the conflict' point of view maybe, between the two. But it's not about the two any more. The conflict is of a worldwide interest, and with reason.

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:42 (twelve years ago)

Yes, when you win a war you generally set the terms?

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:42 (twelve years ago)

Like, from my perspective it seems like the Palestinians want to negotiate like they're the ones occupying Israel and doing Israel a favor coming to the negotiating table. That's not the position they're in and it's not helping them get a state.

― Mordy , Tuesday, May 28, 2013 6:41 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't see them negotiating like they are the ones with the upper hand. In rhetoric maybe, but I doubt this is how the cards are when actually sitting at the table.

You can easily reverse your comment and say Israel are coming to the table feeling they are doing the Palestines a favour they don't even want them to have...

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:43 (twelve years ago)

I can't see the international community letting the annexation of the West Bank happen. It wouldn't surprise me if Israel was still illegally occupying Palestinian territory in 25 years but in 50, 75 or 100? Who knows? When the prize is a viable state with territorial integrity, I can see why people might take their chances.

Israel doesn't have a legal right to set the terms and that's pretty widely accepted outside a narrow right wing of international opinion.

хуто-хуторянка (ShariVari), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:44 (twelve years ago)

Yes, when you win a war you generally set the terms?

― Mordy , Tuesday, May 28, 2013 6:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is so odd, to think this way. Israel won the war against Palestine so they get to decide? Yeah, if that is your stance, this will never ever be solved.

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:44 (twelve years ago)

Yes, Israel is doing Palestine a favor they don't even want them to have. That is literally true. Israel is being asked to give up land for peace. And again, look at the rejected Olmert deal and tell me if they're not acting like they have the upper hand. That deal is everything they could hope for. xxp

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:45 (twelve years ago)

Yes, when you win a war you generally set the terms?

― Mordy , Tuesday, May 28, 2013 6:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The 'terms' Israel is setting right now is occupying land, oppressing a people and leading an apartheid-like regime against the Palestines. That is not setting terms, that is continuing the war against Palestine in a way.

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:45 (twelve years ago)

Ok, please take a break and scroll up and read the Olmert deal.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:46 (twelve years ago)

They will literally never get a better deal than that. Those are the best terms they can ever get.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:47 (twelve years ago)

Not since 1949, and with good reason.

Perhaps if the U.S. were a credible mediator (and not a lapdog of one of the parties) they'd might lay it out for the Palestinians - no right of return, there will never be a right of return, but the Green Line is a plausible start for negotiations. Pretty much what the Arab League deems acceptable too.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:47 (twelve years ago)

I know about the Olmert deal. I still have some reserve to how clear cut that was, but I agree that it was a huge mistake to turn that down.

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 16:49 (twelve years ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-warns-russia-against-giving-syria-missiles-132538404.html

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 18:13 (twelve years ago)

i thought israel and russia had a pretty good relationship?

goole, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 18:38 (twelve years ago)

my impression has been that it has been improving, and is better than where it was 10 years ago, but is still not very good

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 18:38 (twelve years ago)

the vague factoid i'm thinking of is the russian immigrant community in israel being the anchor of it; strong social ties but not much geopolitical congruence?

goole, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 18:40 (twelve years ago)

i'm not sure russia is thrilled about its jewish emigrants tbh - it spent many years not letting them leave

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 18:56 (twelve years ago)

Diplomacy-wise I think Israel and Russia still have a p good relationship. But if there is any country in the world right now where anti-semitism is booming reaching new highs (lows), it is Russia.

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 19:29 (twelve years ago)

Not to mention that Russia is heavily invested in Arabic countries, and that Israel's close relationship to the US has likely strained their relationship with Russia. I remember before Lieberman was convicted he was working on improving relationships w/ Russia, but I don't know if that's on hold or what.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 19:38 (twelve years ago)

Yes, when you win a war you generally set the terms?

― Mordy , Tuesday, May 28, 2013 6:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Mordy I find this kind of argument from you very frustrating. It all boils down to might makes right? It is therefore it should be?

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 21:35 (twelve years ago)

I'm just not sure that the 'that's not fair' argument has really helped the Palestinians very much over the last few decades. If they had settled for what is, and not what they felt should be, they could have had a state w/ connections between Gaza and the West Bank.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 21:40 (twelve years ago)

I think if you expect geopolitics to follow a rule of what you find right, or ethical, you'll be really frustrated in general?

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 21:43 (twelve years ago)

no doubt about that

but if that's ultimately your view, why even bother arguing any other points?

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 21:45 (twelve years ago)

The thing is Mordy, I would have hoped discussing this with you, you wouldn't be such an adamant Israel stan. I know you are Jewish, so I understand. I'd just hoped you'd be more open minded, less one-sided about this conflict. But you seem to be choosing sides for Israel all the time and defending that position to the teeth. And I can't blame you, and I won't. I don't. All fair.

But discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict with an avid Israel supporter is just... Well, it's just like all my previous discussions with avid Israel supporters, or avid Palestine supporters for that matter. In the trenches of one's own conviction or belief... It neither gets me, you nor the conflict any further.

Since you dominate this thread, which is fine, I will unbookmark this thread and let you be. I just don't feel I am speaking to an open minded person about the middle-east conflict, but rather with someone heavily rooting for Israel. Again, that is fine if you feel that way, but it doesn't really allow other opinions. As has been proven here. Which is a shame. Good luck.

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 22:31 (twelve years ago)

LBI, I agree with you, and I have had the same frustrations (as a Jew with connections to Israel!) discussing this subject with entrenched Israel supporters. I wish you wouldn't leave the thread, and I wish this thread had more posters rather than fewer, although it may be hard to interest most ilxors in any mideast subject other than Israel or US involvement in Iraq, and even those seem to be of limited interest.

THIS IS NOT A BENGHAZI T-SHIRT (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 22:39 (twelve years ago)

Mordy do you consider yrself an "entrenched Israel supporter"

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 22:41 (twelve years ago)

Thanks Hurting. I don't really want to leave this thread, for the conflict interests me very much (I have both Israeli's and Palestine's married into my family - they go together really well, even though they obviously have different opinions about this - and besides that it has always been an interest to me, even before I got to meet my in-laws). I perhaps might feel a bit disillusioned, for I thought ILX of all places would be a place to view the Israel/Palestine conflict from all possible angles.

Perhaps I was too rash to call it quits on this, but I have learned through personal experience that trying to debate this with people who are leaning to one side heavily - to put it mildly - does not get me anywhere, and doesn't make me feel I can contribute anything of value. For nuance, or seeking the middle point, is always being frowned upon.

Again, Mordy, no hard feelings to you. But this is your thread; I felt begrudged entering it, and having spoken to you on here only makes me feel more begrudged. For I don't want to 'fight' with you, I am not here to disagree with you. But how I'd wish for a place where it would be ok to speak about this conflict without prejudice, or without having the feeling I am speaking to a - let's face it - quite hardcore Israel stan like you. Again, no problem with that; but that is where I have to leave. Sorry.

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 22:52 (twelve years ago)

Mordy do you consider yrself an "entrenched Israel supporter"

― four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:41 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I can handle a joke but I did mean it in a serious way. My hampered English not-withstanding...

Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 22:55 (twelve years ago)

All cards on the table, LBI, I believe that Israel (and the United States) are responsible for preserving the worldwide Jewish community after WW2. I have tremendous hakarat hatov (gratitude) for the millions of Jewish refugees it has taken in. I also personally feel a connection to Israel - I've studied texts by Jewish scholars about Israel and written in Israel. I've learned the Talmud Yerushalmi and the Talmud Bavli that was written in the Babylonian exile. I say the shema every night w/ my daughter which reads, 'Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is God the Lord is One,' which means that even this minor metonymy is hardcoded into my brain. I've visited Israel and tbh I may one day make aliyah there. It is also the home of the majority of the world's Jewish population.

Which is to say that yes, I guess I'm an Israel supporter. That said, I don't think I'm a particularly unfair one. I've seen Waltz with Bashir and the Gatekeepers. I studied a few Palestinian novelists in college and I've read Said numerous times. I read Haaretz every day and check in on Mondoweiss (despite the digestive distress it gives me), Glenn Greenwald, Stephen Walt, Electronic Intifada, at least once a week. Almost all my friends are liberal and many post antagonistically about Israel every day on fb. I went to a graduate program that celebrated Apartheid Week.

If I can live in a world where everyone who shares my politics disagrees vehemently with me on this one point, you can post on an ilx thread where pretty much only one dude is pushing a particular argument and EVERYONE ELSE agrees with you. And if you can't, it might not be a problem with me. You wrote that my position is responsible for, "neither [getting] me, you nor the conflict any further." But I'd argue that if you can't have a civil discussion with me on this topic, that's a far worse bellwether for any kind of resolution.

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 23:30 (twelve years ago)

I can handle a joke but I did mean it in a serious way

I wasn't joking!

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 23:41 (twelve years ago)

I do think there are things that Israel might do that Mordy would not support. I'm not sure what they are, but Mordy's support does not seem like the kind of blind allegiance that would excuse any and all Israeli policy

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 28 May 2013 23:45 (twelve years ago)

I'm not sure what it means to be an entrenched Israel supporter. I will always support the existence of a Jewish state in the geography of Israel/Palestine/Canaan/etc. I don't feel particularly religious about where the borders of that state should be. I don't feel betrayed by Sharon's withdrawing from Gaza. I would accept, in the unlikely event of its occurrence, a two-state solution. So obviously I'm not particularly attached to Judea and Samaria. (I hope again in my lifetime to visit Hevron, so I feel strongly that 'Palestine' leaves it open to Jewish visitors.) I've disagreed w/ Israel's government policies before and I assume will do again in the future -- but radically right-wingers disagree w/ the Israeli government all the time so I'm not sure what that indicates. What does it mean to be an entrenched Israel supporter? That you'll never convince me that Israel is an illegitimate racist state?

Mordy , Tuesday, 28 May 2013 23:51 (twelve years ago)

Off the topic (kinda), I really want to read this: http://www.amazon.com/Ambivalence-Betrayal-Israel-Studies-Antisemitism/dp/0803240767 but it's so expensive.

Also, it's kinda lol and I'll take partial responsibility that w/ Syria ongoing, civil war spilling into Lebanon and Iraq, Iranian election drama, etc, we're arguing about Israel. I did start reading a book about Hezbollah who have got to be hoping really hard now that Assad stays in charge. (I used to be sure that Assad was definitely going to be overthrown but nowadays I think he's actually going to keep power.)

Mordy , Wednesday, 29 May 2013 00:17 (twelve years ago)

My really smart friend says this is supposed to be better:
http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Judaism-Western-Tradition-David-Nirenberg/dp/0393058247/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Mordy , Wednesday, 29 May 2013 00:35 (twelve years ago)

The German foreign intelligence agency (Bundesnachrichtendienst, BND) has drastically revised its assessment of the situation in Syria, reveals Spiegel Online. While, on the strength of reports by high-ranking military deserters, they had heretofore predicted the rapid enfeeblement of Bashar al-Assad, today they announced his victory before the end of the year.

The BND believes that the Syrian Arab Army has succeeded in securing its supply lines and in cutting those of the “insurgents” (largely foreign jihadists, backed by NATO and the GCC). The retrieval of al-Qusayir presages that of the entire district of Homs and the collapse of the partition plans, with the possible exception of a Kurdish area.

Mordy , Wednesday, 29 May 2013 00:51 (twelve years ago)

Photo gallery from Aleppo: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/28/battle_for_aleppo_international

Mordy , Wednesday, 29 May 2013 04:40 (twelve years ago)

Report: Saudi businessman offers http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/05/report-saudi-businessman-offers-10.html0 million to kill Nasrallah

Mordy , Wednesday, 29 May 2013 20:49 (twelve years ago)

hmm that doesn't look right

Mordy , Wednesday, 29 May 2013 20:50 (twelve years ago)

Well anyway, some papers are reporting that a Saudi businessman is offering 10m to whoever - even a Shiite - kills Nasrallah. Drama!

Mordy , Wednesday, 29 May 2013 20:51 (twelve years ago)

Speaking of Afghanistan, the recent Vice docu was heartrendingly depressing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKHPTHx0ScQ

3316 ISAF casualties, $630 billion in war related costs to the U.S. so far, just to hand the country off to warlords and pedophile police who will flee the Taliban's righteous wrath in 2015.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Thursday, 30 May 2013 03:48 (twelve years ago)

No one has handled an Afghanistan war with much distinction since Alexander the Great. He marched in, won a fistful of pitched battles, marched out the other side toward India leaving behind the message "don't write, just send money", then he never went back there again.

Aimless, Thursday, 30 May 2013 04:05 (twelve years ago)

On the topic of Israel's diplomatic relationship w/ Russia:
http://ottomansandzionists.com/2013/05/30/israels-russian-roulette/

Mordy , Thursday, 30 May 2013 14:42 (twelve years ago)

I think that's probably an accurate summary. Extradition issues aside, there isn't really any noticeable hostility to Israel in the upper echelons of the government (probably the opposite) but there's not enough to gain out of the relationship to make it worth isolating Syria.

хуто-хуторянка (ShariVari), Thursday, 30 May 2013 15:20 (twelve years ago)

Well, I guess things are about to get pretty interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/31/world/middleeast/syria.html

BEIRUT, Lebanon — President Bashar al-Assad of Syria said in a television interview to be broadcast on Thursday that Russia has delivered S-300 air defense missiles to his country, weapons that Israel has said present a threat to its security and against which it is willing to use force.

Mordy , Thursday, 30 May 2013 15:32 (twelve years ago)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-threatened-to-hit-s-300s-before-they-came-online/

PM indicated to Putin: ‘We’ll destroy your missiles if you deliver them to Assad’

After Netanyahu made clear he would not allow the S-300 anti-aircraft weapons to go into service, the Russian president reportedly suggested Israel buy them instead

Mordy , Friday, 31 May 2013 21:13 (twelve years ago)

brass balls that guy

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 May 2013 21:17 (twelve years ago)

my mom went to high school w/ him

Mordy , Friday, 31 May 2013 21:18 (twelve years ago)

with Putin?!

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 May 2013 21:20 (twelve years ago)

lol w/ bibi

Mordy , Friday, 31 May 2013 21:20 (twelve years ago)

U.N. Investigators Say Most Syria Rebels Not Seeking Democracy

Mordy , Friday, 31 May 2013 21:23 (twelve years ago)

my comment referred to Putin, thought that was obvious

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 May 2013 21:23 (twelve years ago)

no -- i assumed you were referring to the brass balls on the guy who told Putin he would destroy his arms shipment

Mordy , Friday, 31 May 2013 21:27 (twelve years ago)

Officials present at the Netanyahu-Putin meeting “were shocked by the audacity Netanyahu displayed before a leader of a global power,” the Israeli paper reported.

Mordy , Friday, 31 May 2013 21:27 (twelve years ago)

Oh, here's a good one:
Tehran says U.S., not Iran, sponsors terrorism

(Reuters) - Iran on Friday rejected a U.S. State Department report that accused Tehran of increasing its support for terrorism overseas to levels not seen for two decades, saying it is the United States that backs terrorists in the Middle East.

Mordy , Friday, 31 May 2013 21:47 (twelve years ago)

OFAC issues Iranian General License D

5/30/2013

​Today, the Office of Foreign Assets Control issued Iranian General License D authorizing the exportation or reexportation, directly or indirectly, from the United States or by U.S. persons, wherever located, to persons in Iran of certain services, software, and hardware incident to personal communications.

Mordy , Saturday, 1 June 2013 03:31 (twelve years ago)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/30/us-aid-iran-dissidents-syria?CMP=twt_fd

The Treasury department said it would exempt US technology companies from sanctions and allow them to supply Iranian consumers with secure internet and mobile phone services such as instant messaging and encryption software. It specifically bans government or commercial sales.

Protests before the last Iranian election in 2009 relied heavily on Twitter and other social networking services to flourish, and privately US officials pointed to new upcoming elections in Iran as a factor in the timing of their announcement.

There the US goes again; undermining a sovereign state's right to limit populace communications.

Mordy , Saturday, 1 June 2013 03:35 (twelve years ago)

Thanks Hurting. I don't really want to leave this thread, for the conflict interests me very much (I have both Israeli's and Palestine's married into my family - they go together really well, even though they obviously have different opinions about this - and besides that it has always been an interest to me, even before I got to meet my in-laws). I perhaps might feel a bit disillusioned, for I thought ILX of all places would be a place to view the Israel/Palestine conflict from all possible angles.

Perhaps I was too rash to call it quits on this, but I have learned through personal experience that trying to debate this with people who are leaning to one side heavily - to put it mildly - does not get me anywhere, and doesn't make me feel I can contribute anything of value. For nuance, or seeking the middle point, is always being frowned upon.

Again, Mordy, no hard feelings to you. But this is your thread; I felt begrudged entering it, and having spoken to you on here only makes me feel more begrudged. For I don't want to 'fight' with you, I am not here to disagree with you. But how I'd wish for a place where it would be ok to speak about this conflict without prejudice, or without having the feeling I am speaking to a - let's face it - quite hardcore Israel stan like you. Again, no problem with that; but that is where I have to leave. Sorry.
--Random ASMR Memories (Le Bateau Ivre)

panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Saturday, 1 June 2013 04:13 (twelve years ago)

elif batumanns on the ground turkey piece in the nyer is great, particularly the quotes from the soccer clubs

I got in touch with members of Çarsi, the leftist fan club of Istanbul’s Besiktas soccer team; I’d written about them for the magazine in 2011. They had come up with a new slogan: “Give us 100 gas masks, we’ll take the park.” I asked Ayhan Gÿner, one of Çarsi’s senior members, what he had to say to New Yorker readers. “Çarsi is the last barricade. Çarsi keeps alive the hopes of the people in the resistance of Gezi Park,” he told me. “This resistance has inspired the leaders of Galatasaray and Fenerbahçe”—rival Istanbul soccer clubs—“to come together. Damn American imperialism to hell.” Fifteen minutes later, I got another text: “Pepper gas is the Besiktas fan’s perfume. Nobody can intimidate us”; and, shortly after that, “We are the soldiers not of the imam, but of Mustafa Kemal” (referring to Ataturk, the founder of the secular Turkish Republic).

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/06/occupy-taksim-police-against-protesters-in-istanbul.html

will be interesting to see if the instanbullus protests manage to sway opinion in the rest of turkey

max, Sunday, 2 June 2013 14:24 (twelve years ago)

erdogan is such a moron. why not let them have their little shitty protest over a park? nope instead let's run them over and start a popular resistance. and what a perfect time to have civil unrest too, ya know, what with the safe borders and everything

Mordy , Monday, 3 June 2013 00:38 (twelve years ago)

i'm ok with this

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/female_israeli_soldiers_post_unbecoming_SKVASg1wCIZ7E1npZz3UPI

goole, Monday, 3 June 2013 15:50 (twelve years ago)

damn

ttyih boi (crüt), Monday, 3 June 2013 15:54 (twelve years ago)

this is the part where we all wolf-whistle and go "hubba hubba" and our eyes do that slot machine thingy and then our tongues roll out like red carpets and celebrities parade down them

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, 3 June 2013 15:56 (twelve years ago)

Nice to see that Army life brings out the more dignified part of women, too.

Tyranny punctuated by epic grams (Michael White), Monday, 3 June 2013 16:06 (twelve years ago)

doesn't seem like much of a scandal tbh. however, I do find it interesting generally how Israel (if not the IDF itself) uses the hotness of its soldiers as an implicit marketing tool for Israel.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, 3 June 2013 16:11 (twelve years ago)

yes i have noticed that. idf cheesecake seems like a fairly reg thing in media.

goole, Monday, 3 June 2013 16:12 (twelve years ago)

there is a minor strain of neoconnish and/or pro-israel attitude that treats the 'fun' of western women vs the drab patriarchy of islam (and the drab humorlessness of "feminism", too?) as... well, as something

cf: http://greatsatansgirlfriend.blogspot.com/

goole, Monday, 3 June 2013 16:18 (twelve years ago)

In an interview with Saudi Arabia's Al Watan, Abbas spoke of the "imminent danger faced by the Al-Aqsa Mosque," claiming that excavations carried out by Israel on the courtyard and under the foundations threatens the mosque with collapse. Abbas bitterly complained about the "fanatic Jewish extremists" being allowed to enter the Temple Mount "to practice their religion," explaining that it is all part of "an evil and dangerous scheme to destroy [Al Aqsa] and establish the alleged Temple."

Mordy , Monday, 3 June 2013 17:14 (twelve years ago)

it had to be done

Gukbe, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 04:54 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/world/middleeast/syria.html?hp

max, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:24 (twelve years ago)

Al Quds al Arabi, the London-based pan-Arab newspaper, reports that the "military wing of Hamas, the Qassam Brigades, has decided to re-align itself with Hezbollah and Iran after bitter infighting over the direction the group should take.

I guess they figured out which way the wind was blowing.

Mordy , Wednesday, 5 June 2013 13:36 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/world/middleeast/in-besieged-sunni-town-of-qusayr-sunnis-are-bitter.html

As Hezbollah guerrillas from across the border besieged Qusayr along with Syrian troops, Sunni Muslim rebels and civilians here declared that those ties were broken, perhaps irrevocably, and that their struggle to topple the government had become a sectarian war.

As a reporter traveled last week through Qusayr’s hinterland, rebels and civilian opponents of President Bashar al-Assad said they still dreamed of a better future and a stronger say in their government. But sooner or later, nearly all of them veered into venting rage against other sects they saw as supporting Mr. Assad — particularly Shiite Muslims, whom they blamed for the many casualties they suffered as the well-trained soldiers of Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militia, led an intense assault.

“We will not forget what Hassan Nasrallah did,” Abu Zaid, 40, a fighter from Qusayr, said, referring to Hezbollah’s leader. “We will take revenge from him and his organization even after 100 years.”

Mordy , Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:09 (twelve years ago)

If Assad is smart he'll consolidate the areas he controls, take the highway, and not try to reconquer all of the heavily Sunni resistance areas.

Mordy , Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:41 (twelve years ago)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/06/qaradawi_syria_jihad_civil_war

Mordy , Thursday, 6 June 2013 21:45 (twelve years ago)

But beyond the supposed military benefits of Qusayr, the battle for the town carried important consequences for the balance of power within the Syrian opposition. Qusayr is arguably the first battle in Syria to be completely sponsored by Saudi Arabia, marking the kingdom's first foray outside its sphere of influence along the Jordanian border. Riyadh has now taken over Qatar's role as the rebels' primary patron: In one sense, the Saudis can also claim a victory in Qusayr, as they have successfully put various rebel forces under the command of their ally in the Free Syrian Army (FSA), Chief of Staff Gen. Salim Idriss.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/06/syria_is_now_saudi_arabias_problem

Mordy , Friday, 7 June 2013 00:08 (twelve years ago)

The Pentagon has recently completed a series of field exercises on US soil as part of which a replica of an underground nuclear facility was destroyed, Yedioth Ahronoth reported Friday.

The tests were declared a resounding success having exceeded all expectations.

The results of the experiment were relayed to friendly nations with the aim of reassuring them as to the US's ability to destroy Iranian nuclear facilities in a single strike.

It was also meant to convey that the US is serious in its intentions to attack Iran should circumstances allow it.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4389481,00.html

Mordy , Friday, 7 June 2013 14:49 (twelve years ago)

in the make of it what you will department, a woman at learning/brunch this morning conveyed the sentiment from her daughter in israel that the temperature on the street is that war w/ syria is imminent

Mordy , Sunday, 9 June 2013 16:30 (twelve years ago)

in the make of it what you will department, a woman at learning/brunch this morning conveyed the sentiment from her daughter in israel that the temperature on the street is that war w/ syria is imminent

― Mordy , Sunday, June 9, 2013 12:30 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a retired Israeli general told me he thought otherwise,

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 June 2013 00:58 (twelve years ago)

i was skeptical too. maybe her daughter is neurotic.

Mordy , Monday, 10 June 2013 01:13 (twelve years ago)

is everyone's seatbelt fastened?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ap-sources-us-close-arming-syrian-rebels-19360932#.UbU08pWlYZY

Mordy , Monday, 10 June 2013 02:08 (twelve years ago)

so unlikely but i wonder if we could see sunnis make generous palestinian deal w/ israel in exchange for west delivering assad. if israel continues to back up rebels (like we saw in damascus bombing), and assad falls, the other pieces would fall into place too. hezbollah would likely be destroyed or severely marginalized (if not by an actual confrontation w/ israel or rebel forces or both, by losing access to iranian weapons and being cut out of lebanese government). hamas already threw in w/ hezbollah. maybe even include some syria, jordan, lebanon whatever in new palestinian state. legitimization of israel in arab world, sunni world gets major victory against iran. it's crazy, but i think there is reason to believe this is already being put into place bc of things like qatar offering land swaps - http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/30/17981056-qatar-pm-arab-states-open-to-mutually-agreed-palestinian-israeli-land-swaps

Mordy , Monday, 10 June 2013 03:44 (twelve years ago)

obv you'd need saudi arabia on board but they're totally committed to this war too after qusayr

Mordy , Monday, 10 June 2013 03:45 (twelve years ago)

ugh last month or so has made me verrry leery of arming syrian rebels

max, Monday, 10 June 2013 10:45 (twelve years ago)

is there a good argument somewhere *for* arming the rebels? i mean i guess i can construct one in my mind but wouldnt mind seeing a smart/articulate pro piece

max, Monday, 10 June 2013 12:29 (twelve years ago)

i haven't seen any smart pro arming pieces

Mordy , Monday, 10 June 2013 12:45 (twelve years ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/10/us-ethiopia-egypt-nile-war-idUSBRE95911020130610

Mordy , Wednesday, 12 June 2013 04:32 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2013/jun/12/syria-inventing-religious-war

Mordy , Wednesday, 12 June 2013 19:18 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/world/middleeast/white-house-pushes-back-on-bill-clintons-syria-remarks.html

WASHINGTON — A day after former President Bill Clinton endorsed a more robust American intervention in Syria, the White House pushed back on Thursday on an issue that has Mr. Clinton aligning himself with Senator John McCain, who has faulted President Obama for his reluctance to get entangled in the bloody civil war there.

Jay Carney, the White House press secretary, said at a briefing that while Mr. Obama welcomed the perspective of outside experts like Mr. Clinton, “The president makes a decision about the implementation of national security options based on our national security interests, not on what might satisfy critics at any given moment about a policy.”

Mordy , Thursday, 13 June 2013 20:21 (twelve years ago)

crazy story: http://www.timesofisrael.com/doctors-note-attached-to-wounded-syrian-treated-in-safed/

Mordy , Thursday, 13 June 2013 23:13 (twelve years ago)

sooo.... proxy war! oh boy

Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 13 June 2013 23:37 (twelve years ago)

"oh, guess what guys. it turns out it was chemical weapons."

Mordy , Thursday, 13 June 2013 23:45 (twelve years ago)

U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/world/middleeast/syria-chemical-weapons.html

Mordy , Friday, 14 June 2013 03:04 (twelve years ago)

But the president’s caution has frayed relations with important American allies in the Middle East that have privately described the White House strategy as feckless. Saudi Arabia and Jordan recently cut the United States out of a new rebel training program, a decision that American officials said came from the belief in Riyadh and Amman that the United States has only a tepid commitment to supporting rebel groups.

Moreover, the United Arab Emirates declined to host a meeting of allied defense officials to discuss Syria, concerned that in the absence of strong American leadership the conference might degenerate into bickering and finger-pointing among various gulf nations with different views on the best ways to support the rebellion.

Mordy , Friday, 14 June 2013 03:58 (twelve years ago)

I really hope Obama wrung some concessions out of the rebels/rebel supporters in exchange for the arms. I don't think he did it to buy influence at the post-Assad table (especially bc without Western involvement there won't be a post-Assad table). I hope he didn't do it bc he suddenly got the 'feels'.

Mordy , Friday, 14 June 2013 13:39 (twelve years ago)

TEHRAN — As voting in the Iranian presidential election began on Friday, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the country’s supreme leader, lashed out at the United States.

Addressing American skepticism about the outcome, he told reporters: “To hell with you if you do not believe in our election. If the Iranian nation had to wait for you to see what you believe in and what you do not, then the Iranian nation would have lagged behind.”

Mordy , Friday, 14 June 2013 13:56 (twelve years ago)

re ppl complaining that this thread is too israel-centric, certainly there should be plenty to talk about regarding obama arming syrian rebels and the iranian election!

Mordy , Friday, 14 June 2013 14:12 (twelve years ago)

i dont really have anyhting to say about it except that i think it is a bad idea

max, Friday, 14 June 2013 14:13 (twelve years ago)

the arming of the rebels. iranian elections are a great idea, in theory!

max, Friday, 14 June 2013 14:13 (twelve years ago)

that's a pretty click interpolation of the stars and stripes and a star of david, you have to admit

goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 15:08 (twelve years ago)

that's because it's AIPAC's logo

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 14 June 2013 15:09 (twelve years ago)

*slick, i mean

i don't really feel like going to khamenei's website; is it all in english? hmmm

xp ha i did not know that

goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 15:09 (twelve years ago)

iran's state propaganda is always good for horrifying lols

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 14 June 2013 15:11 (twelve years ago)

it's in all kinds of languages xp http://english.khamenei.ir

Mordy , Friday, 14 June 2013 15:16 (twelve years ago)

their explanation of Israel is an interesting read:
http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=702&Itemid=13

It's actually not AS full of distortions as I expected, although there are a good number of distortions. Not the completely batshit piece of work I was expecting, but exaggerated or wrong on certain points. Certainly gives some insight into a commonly held view of Israel and discredits the idea that it's only about the territories. I particularly like the idea that paying two or three times the value of land in order to obtain it is a "cunning scheme"

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 14 June 2013 15:27 (twelve years ago)

re: Syria, seems like there's no good options really. Looks like Obama has opted on the side of getting our hands bloody in hopes that that leads to a marginally better outcome than Assad remaining in power but I'll be damned if I can figure out what that outcome could actually be.

Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 14 June 2013 15:28 (twelve years ago)

Meanwhile in Qatar... http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/14/regime_change_qatar

Mordy , Friday, 14 June 2013 18:32 (twelve years ago)

so looks like a rowhani win in iran? its been a while since i was following iranian politics but this seems like the best possible outcome

max, Saturday, 15 June 2013 13:08 (twelve years ago)

larison OTM (as usual).

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 15 June 2013 22:26 (twelve years ago)

3x Boss Tweed for co-president

the REAL Dr Morbius (silby), Monday, 17 June 2013 05:04 (twelve years ago)

Made in Glasgow: the new Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani.

Allegedly he speaks English with a slight Scottish accent, probably more convincingly than Fraser Nelson.

Bees Against Racism (Tom D.), Monday, 17 June 2013 13:37 (twelve years ago)

surprised at this dude winning, not hoping/expecting much from him tho

temporarily embarassed millionaire (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 June 2013 18:18 (twelve years ago)

Personally, I've stopped trying to figure Obama out. The man has done the opposite of what he's said too many times to treat his own words as a reliable predictor of what he really believes. (Who knew "change" described his future positions?) But whether he is deliberately trying to escalate U.S. involvement, as Sullivan seems to think, or just prolonging the slaughter in Syria, as Drezner believes, his actions will be just the latest disappointment to the anti-war liberals who helped elect him. They'll also be another example of a president making a decision that would be better debated and voted on by Congress. I'd want that debate to end in a finding that, aside from humanitarian relief supplies, the U.S. should stay as far away from Syria as possible.

from the atlantic article linked upthread.. this cant help negate his approval ratings slide with his base either.

panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Monday, 17 June 2013 18:22 (twelve years ago)

http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20130617&t=2&i=742190512&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=600&pl=390&r=CBRE95G1MUB00

Reuters
U.S. President Barack Obama sparred with Russia’s Vladimir Putin over how to end the war in Syria during the G8 summit. http://reut.rs/19cQrBn

Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 03:11 (twelve years ago)

It was like watching 2 children who didn't like each other being made to say sorry. The body language was funny/awkward.
There's a full 13 minute clip on youtube somewhere.

not_goodwin, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 17:15 (twelve years ago)

that was quick:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/06/2013620133217503140.html

Mordy , Thursday, 20 June 2013 14:29 (twelve years ago)

A rebel group that operates on the Syrian side of the Golan Heights stated Thursday that it would not fight Israel if Israel sends forces into Syria. A spokesman for the rebel group, which is based in Quneitra, made the comments to Al-Jazeera.

“We’ll leave the fighting to Hezbollah and to [Syrian President] Bashar Assad’s men,” said Abu Jafar. “We won’t fight Israel.”

Mordy , Thursday, 20 June 2013 20:35 (twelve years ago)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/06/201362465325234330.html

Mordy , Monday, 24 June 2013 15:49 (twelve years ago)

http://i39.tinypic.com/deweu1.png

Mordy , Tuesday, 25 June 2013 02:59 (twelve years ago)

Egypt’s top ranking defense official warned Sunday that the military was “ready to intervene to stop the violence” ahead of scheduled mass protests to mark the one-year anniversary this week of Mohammed Morsi’s inauguration as Egypt’s first democratically elected president.
Defense Minister Abdel-Fatah el Sissi’s comments were the most forceful to date by a senior official of Egypt’s revered military in response to months of unrest and seemed to threaten the possibility of a military coup if protests lead to bloodshed or, as el Sissi described it, “uncontrollable conflict.”
El Sissi gave Morsi and his opponents a week to reconcile.

Mordy , Wednesday, 26 June 2013 01:51 (twelve years ago)

something new to be troubled about:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/28/the_middle_east_plague_goes_global

Mordy , Friday, 28 June 2013 17:18 (twelve years ago)

"Plague" is ludicrously hyperbolic at this stage. The transmission doesn't appear to be enormously efficient and the mortality rate is almost certainly overstated.

Inte Regina Lund eller nån, mitt namn är (ShariVari), Friday, 28 June 2013 17:46 (twelve years ago)

x-post-- more on Egyptian protests

Egypt’s military gives Morsi 48 hours to meet ‘the demands of the people’

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/protesters-ransack-muslim-brotherhood-hq-demand-morsis-resignation/2013/07/01/f3f79698-e23c-11e2-a11e-c2ea876a8f30_story.html?hpid=z1

Opposition protesters — a loose alliance of liberal and secular activists, old-regime loyalists and a growing number of the nation’s disenchanted poor — say Morsi has lost his legitimacy during a year of political turmoil as the country’s economy has faltered and security in the streets has crumbled. They want Morsi to resign, the Islamist-dominated elected upper house of parliament dissolved and the Islamist-­drafted constitution shelved in favor of a new round of elections and a new constitution.

curmudgeon, Monday, 1 July 2013 15:54 (twelve years ago)

if this new constitution doesn't work are they going to scrap everything in a year again? not trolling or anything it just seems like there's a fine line between referendums and mob democratic rule.

panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Monday, 1 July 2013 16:37 (twelve years ago)

I wish it was easy to get rid of our fucking democratically elected government

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Monday, 1 July 2013 17:24 (twelve years ago)

if only the united states were more like egypt

Mordy , Monday, 1 July 2013 17:28 (twelve years ago)

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/egyptians-react-to-armys-ultimatum/

The Big Pharaoh @TheBigPharaoh

We are the first country in human history to have a countdown to a military coup.
11:00 AM - 1 Jul 2013

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 02:18 (twelve years ago)

I don't know - wasn't Bainimarama's ultimatum in Fiji pretty similar?

the so-called socialista (dowd), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:43 (twelve years ago)

The new secretary of state’s exertions — reminiscent of predecessors like Henry A. Kissinger and James A. Baker III — have been met with the usual mix of hope and skepticism. But with so much of the Middle East still convulsing from the effects of the Arab Spring, Mr. Kerry’s efforts raise questions about the Obama administration’s priorities at a time of renewed regional unrest.

woah nyt, woah

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 15:37 (twelve years ago)

this is a really smart 'pro'-erdogan analysis:
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/world/2013/06/23/Taksim-in-between-spontaneity-and-conspiracy.html

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 16:20 (twelve years ago)

i think after assad falls (i assume sometime early this year) we'll see iran come down shortly after. iranian economy is in such a huge mess already.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 1, 2013 3:48 PM (6 months ago) Bookmark

rong

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 16:21 (twelve years ago)

egypt's military coup deadline is about an hour away

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 13:34 (twelve years ago)

Who's gonna blink?

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 14:31 (twelve years ago)

With a military deadline for President Mohamed Morsi to cede power approaching, Egypt’s generals called an emergency meeting with civilian political leaders including the opposition figure Mohamed ElBaradei.

New York Times

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 14:58 (twelve years ago)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/20137394753443155.html

Egypt's embattled President Mohamed Morsi has proposed a consensus government as a way out of the country's crisis, as an army deadline urging him to meet the protesters' demands expired.

"The presidency envisions the formation of a consensus coalition government to oversee the next parliamentary election," his office said on Wednesday in a statement on Facebook.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 16:15 (twelve years ago)

Tanks in the streets according to twitter

Gukbe, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 16:31 (twelve years ago)

Sorry that was a retweet from a Muslim brotherhood guy no confirmation.

Gukbe, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 16:41 (twelve years ago)

live feed of tanks on the street on al-j

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 17:32 (twelve years ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-egypt-protests-idUSBRE95Q0NO20130703

Military coup going on now???

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 18:05 (twelve years ago)

The Egyptian Army is carrying out a "full military coup" and the army has placed a travel ban on the country's embattled President Mohamed Morsi, officials said.

ABC News

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 18:43 (twelve years ago)

https://twitter.com/sultanalqassemi/status/352499567926845441

@SultanAlQassemi
BREAKING - BBC Arabic - Army informs Morsi that he is no longer president of Egypt - cites Al Ahram Gate

Z S, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 18:59 (twelve years ago)

very kind of the army to inform Morsi

Z S, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 19:00 (twelve years ago)

Egypt state collapsed:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/world/middleeast/egypt-protest-updates.html

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:40 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark

I was a little early with this.

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 19:10 (twelve years ago)

So if there are elections again, will ElBaradei run this time? Will the Army seek to prevent Brotherhood members from competing?

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 19:16 (twelve years ago)

someone on NPR was suggesting that if Morsi had cooperated w/ the deadline he would've been a part of the next government, but bc he defied the army he'd likely be locked out. not sure if that means MB will be unrepresented entirely or what.

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 19:18 (twelve years ago)

Morsy urges Egyptians to "avoid shedding blood of fellow countrymen." on.cnn.com/16P1BL8

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:04 (twelve years ago)

Abhi Goyal
Is this a bad time to mention the hundreds of MB supporters fighting in Syria, who will return to Egypt angry and with military training?

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:05 (twelve years ago)

esp his own amirite? xp

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:06 (twelve years ago)

Bradley Hope
This is very different from Mubarak resigning, fleeing to Sharm; Morsi could still stir up tens of thousands, if not more, if he chooses

recorded speech playing to ongoing MB sit-in

Mosa'ab Elshamy
Morsi:" I am still the president." Massive roar among his crowd.

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:08 (twelve years ago)

the US just gave the egyptian military some pretty sweet jets so i think they'll be okay

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:10 (twelve years ago)

sweet jets are what you give a country when you want nice support contracts

goole, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:14 (twelve years ago)

Hossam عمو حسام
An ongoing crackdown on Islamist media channels, and journalists r being rounded up at the MB-run Misr 25 and the Salafist EnNas & ElHafez.

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:17 (twelve years ago)

is morsi going to survive this? y/n

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:10 (twelve years ago)

that bradley hope tweet persuasively makes the case why he won't

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:10 (twelve years ago)

i bet he makes it to the end credits

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:17 (twelve years ago)

but no one will ask him to join the avengers in a bonus scene

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:17 (twelve years ago)

survive politically or literally?

the late great, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:18 (twelve years ago)

Natasha Mozgovaya
Now it's obviously the time to follow the @EgyPresidency account. How does transition work for Twitter?

ugh

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:19 (twelve years ago)

i mean i don't see him surviving politically at all--the army apparently talked game that if he'd worked *with* them prior to the expiration of the deadline he would have been a part of the gov going fwd, but since he didn't he's likely out

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:20 (twelve years ago)

i mean literally. the army needs to ensure that there isn't a massive civil war. one way to do that is to include MB into new government but it seems like MB is going to resist the coup which makes that less likely. there are a lot of ppl in the MB, and like that tweet mentions, a lot of them who have been engaged in sectarian, violent conflicts throughout the middle east. keeping morsi alive literally could be a very dangerous move. on the other hand the army might be sensitive about taking too drastic an action, but i've been surprised so far at how drastic they're willing to be.

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:24 (twelve years ago)

tbh they seem like softies. i don't think they're assad-violent.

Mordy , Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:27 (twelve years ago)

Tim Shorrock
EVERYTHING IS FINE RT @AFP: #BREAKING US orders mandatory evacuation of embassy in Cairo

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:29 (twelve years ago)

Heba Farouk Mahfouz.
Army is closing ALL entrances to #ikhwan sit in at #cairouni, NO ONE is allowed in, but campers allowed out. HEAVY army presence here.

Mike Giglio
Islamists guarding Rabaa demo with sticks & shields look terrified. "Once the numbers go down, I think the Army will clean this up" one says

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:48 (twelve years ago)

Would killing Morsi make civil war less likely though?

10zing blogay (seandalai), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 22:17 (twelve years ago)

Damn, this stuff is crazy. Hope Egyptians are staying safe through all this.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 23:04 (twelve years ago)

Morsi reportedly being held with top aides at a military facility after army suspends constitution.

Mordy , Thursday, 4 July 2013 02:25 (twelve years ago)

Bashar al-Assad on Wednesday praised Egypt's protests against their leader and said his overthrow by the military means the end of "political Islam".

Assad, who is seeking to crush a revolt against his own rule, said Egyptians have discovered the "lies" of the Muslim Brotherhood.

He spoke in an interview with the state-run Al-Thawra newspaper.

"What is happening in Egypt is the fall of so-called political Islam," Assad said. "This is the fate of anyone in the world who tries to use religion for political or factional interests."

Mordy , Thursday, 4 July 2013 17:56 (twelve years ago)

I'd be very surprised if the Egyptian army executed Morsi. I would also be surprised if the MB didn't foment sufficient violence to kill at least 5,000 before the dust settles. However, it is now clear that the military won't stand for a non-secular constitution (though it obv will pay some lip service to islam) and the question is how long it will take to establish this within a democratic framework. Morsi and the MB proved that fot them secular poltiics is just a means to an islamic state.

Aimless, Thursday, 4 July 2013 18:33 (twelve years ago)

Morsi and the MB proved that fot them secular poltiics is just a means to an islamic state.

Well, yeah, but is that any surprise? You pays your money, or casts your vote, you takes your choice

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Thursday, 4 July 2013 18:39 (twelve years ago)

today i made the sound move of keeping my girlfriend alive

ogmor, Thursday, 4 July 2013 22:10 (twelve years ago)

Good day's work, ogmor.

Aimless, Thursday, 4 July 2013 23:13 (twelve years ago)

the vanquished Muslim Brotherhood called for a "day of rejection" following a widespread crackdown on its leadership by the country's new interim president, Adli Mansour.

Supporters of the ousted president Mohamed Morsi, still reeling from the military coup that removed their leader from power, are expected to take to the streets after Friday prayers following a series of raids and arrests that decimated the Muslim Brotherhood's senior ranks and consolidated the miltary's hold on the country.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/04/egypt-morsi-allies-regime

curmudgeon, Friday, 5 July 2013 15:12 (twelve years ago)

No surprise, there's been some violence

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/meast/egypt-coup/index.html

curmudgeon, Friday, 5 July 2013 16:23 (twelve years ago)

lol @ an original list made up of beltway motherfuckers

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 5 July 2013 19:05 (twelve years ago)

mainly checked to make sure Mona wasn't on the list tbh

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 5 July 2013 19:06 (twelve years ago)

from the comments (regarding the author's update re the lack of Egyptians on the list):

You state the following with regards to Egyptian tweeters "...but it can also be a bit insular and Egypt-focused in a way that might make it less accessible for those not already well versed in Egypt’s culture and politics..", then you go on to list some Egyptians and show their tweets. Their tweets seem just as insightful as their English counterparts and display none of the insularity and Egypt centric views that you claim. And even if that were the case, don't you think that maybe there is some value in a what a tweeter from a different culture has to say?

curmudgeon, Friday, 5 July 2013 19:47 (twelve years ago)

Report: Series of blasts heard overnight near Assad arms depot in northern Syria
Residents of region report seeing fighter jets near time of blasts; several Assad troops killed in explosions, according to reports.

Mordy , Saturday, 6 July 2013 01:27 (twelve years ago)

the last paragraph of this was pointed out to me as very special: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324399404578583932317286550.html

Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile's Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy. If General Sisi merely tries to restore the old Mubarak order, he will eventually suffer Mr. Morsi's fate.

(!)

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Saturday, 6 July 2013 15:18 (twelve years ago)

Free market thugs and death squads. Free market nightsticks. Free market tear gas. Free market prisons.

Aimless, Saturday, 6 July 2013 17:49 (twelve years ago)

yeah, but bolano would not have developed into the writer he was without pinochet, so on balance, it was a great thing for chile

Z S, Saturday, 6 July 2013 22:50 (twelve years ago)

No interim position for secularist ElBaradei.

curmudgeon, Sunday, 7 July 2013 15:28 (twelve years ago)

Qatar has stripped prominent Muslim Brotherhood cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi of his Qatari citizenship, has ordered Hamas politburo chief Khaled Meshaal (who took refuge in Qatar after it was no longer palatable to be sheltered by Bashar al-Assad) out of the country, and has withdrawn support from the Muslim Brotherhood as a result of Wednesday's events in Egypt.

Mordy , Sunday, 7 July 2013 16:05 (twelve years ago)

Dani Dayan is getting around. First Guardian, then I saw a long round table w/ him on Al-Jazeera and today interviewed on salon: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/settler_there_will_not_be_a_palestinian_state/

Mordy , Sunday, 7 July 2013 17:48 (twelve years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23222546

40+ Morsi supporters killed by the army last night.

Inte Regina Lund eller nån, mitt namn är (ShariVari), Monday, 8 July 2013 10:43 (twelve years ago)

more on that

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/violent-clashes-in-egypt-leave-at-least-40-dead-and-chill-negotiations/2013/07/08/ca788168-e7a2-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html?hpid=z1

The violence dealt a significant blow to an already fragile political process. The Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice party issued a statement calling for an “uprising against those who want to steal the revolution with tanks” and asking the world to prevent a “new Syria.”

At the same time, the ultra-conservative Salafist Nour party, the only Islamist group to support Morsi’s ouster, said it would abandon negotiations over who should take over as prime minister of Egypt “as a first reaction to the Republican Guard massacre

curmudgeon, Monday, 8 July 2013 15:27 (twelve years ago)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/08/egypt-interim-president-timetable/2500551/

Surprise surprise, Muslim Brotherhood does not like the interim timetable

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 9 July 2013 14:12 (twelve years ago)

fast-track timetable that is

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 9 July 2013 14:14 (twelve years ago)

i lol'd

http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2013/07/11/time_mag_cover_homepage_blog_horizontal.jpg

Mordy , Friday, 12 July 2013 18:40 (twelve years ago)

This is pretty amazing:
http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/07/07/dont-understand-whats-happening-egypt-listen-12-year-old-break-it-down-you?cmpid=tp3-fb

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 12 July 2013 19:43 (twelve years ago)

Ian Masters interview with Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl (mp3).

Fadl lays the blame for the coup squarely on Saudi royals paying off the army to retain investments. Probably the fairest treatment I've seen.

Me So Hormetic (Sanpaku), Friday, 12 July 2013 20:10 (twelve years ago)

that Time cover is dumb

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 12 July 2013 20:12 (twelve years ago)

which is not really surprising bc it's Time

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Friday, 12 July 2013 20:12 (twelve years ago)

Syrian officials on Saturday denied reports that Israel had been behind an attack on an arms depot in Latakia a week ago.

The denial followed the weekend confirmation by three unidentified US officials that Israeli warplanes had targeted advanced Russian-made anti-ship missiles in the coastal area on July 5. The comments to CNN seemingly confirmed similar reports in the Arab press.

Early Sunday, The New York Times also reported that Israeli planes had targeted the facility, citing unnamed American officials.

On Saturday, Iranian Arab-language news outlet Al-Alam reported that Damascus was denying Israeli involvement in the attack, citing Syrian officials.

Damascus had blamed a technical error for the blasts, which left several soldiers dead.

Mordy , Sunday, 14 July 2013 05:06 (twelve years ago)

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57594352/u.s-considering-use-of-military-force-in-syria/

Mordy , Thursday, 18 July 2013 20:01 (twelve years ago)

Omg hurting what a great clip

that kid otm

the Spanish Porky's (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 18 July 2013 20:08 (twelve years ago)

tmmrw nite in dc starts first extensive public negotiations between PLO + Israel since Barak + Arafat in 2000 iirc

Mordy , Monday, 29 July 2013 04:18 (twelve years ago)

http://www.jewishexponent.com/stoudemire-seeking-israeli-citizenship

Mordy , Friday, 2 August 2013 18:54 (twelve years ago)

my fave labor-neocon amateur analyst sums up syria

http://kirkpatrickmission.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/carnival-of-death/

idk how on point it is but it's interest reading. what an unholy mess.

R'LIAH (goole), Friday, 9 August 2013 14:59 (twelve years ago)

it is interesting reading but is he giving 1 guy too much credit:

The current Sunni war against all in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Algeria, Mali, Nigeria, Egypt, Libya and maybe soon Saudi Arabia is a legacy of al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian street criminal turned psychopathic terrorist whose life ended beneath two 500-pound, laser-guided U.S. bombs

curmudgeon, Friday, 9 August 2013 15:39 (twelve years ago)

http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/23/16/63/5041344/3/628x471.jpg

are we looking at a reversion to protofascist secular police state or are Morsi's supporters well-armed/supplied enough to engage in a civil war

OH MY GOD HE'S GOOGLY (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 14 August 2013 16:21 (twelve years ago)

I'm guessing the former. If they have the election they say they will have, will Muslim Brotherhood candidates be allowed to particpate?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/egyptian-security-forces-move-against-protesters-camps/2013/08/14/bc079750-04a7-11e3-9259-e2aafe5a5f84_story.html?hpid=z2

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 16:26 (twelve years ago)

state of emergency that mubarak kept in place has been re-instituted

yall probably know that but, just to say it here

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 14 August 2013 16:33 (twelve years ago)

95 dead according to one report, with the Muslim Brotherhood saying up to 2,000

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 16:33 (twelve years ago)

Interim government minister Mohamed ElBaradei has resigned

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 18:55 (twelve years ago)

Oh shit...

Fais ce que voudra, occiderai de même (Michael White), Wednesday, 14 August 2013 19:25 (twelve years ago)

I have argued that Morsi supporters shouldn't be any more rejected than Christian center-right parties (or the Republicans in the US) as legitimate representatives of pious, traditionalist Muslims if one wants democracy to function properly (such as not following the Papacy's political and religious rejection of the unified Italian kingdom), but I can see where liberals and secularists in the modern (i.e. Erdoğan) era, are wary of reverting to the statist Islamic/Sharia model and rightly feared Morsi, the MB and the FJP. I was in Egypt in 2007. This can only be tragic.

Fais ce que voudra, occiderai de même (Michael White), Wednesday, 14 August 2013 19:44 (twelve years ago)

I don't agree with Egypt's Islamist majority, but nothing Morsi did compares with sending flamethrowing tanks against protesters sleeping in their tents at 6 AM.

I'm dubious U.S. machinations have much to do with the coup, but business interests from property holding classes in Egypt and elsewhere in the Middle-East have come up frequently. I predict this won't end well for them or for Egypt.

Sanpaku, Thursday, 15 August 2013 03:18 (twelve years ago)

In Egypt, the current conflict reflects the vastly different responses that groups can have to a fledgling democracy after decades of dictatorship. For the Brotherhood, this means stubbornly following what it believes to be the correct and legitimate political path, even if it alienates others and leads to disaster; for the military, it’s a matter of implementing the worst instincts of the majority. In each case, one can recognize a seed of democratic instinct, but it’s grown in twisted ways, because the political and social environment was damaged by the regimes of the past half-century.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/08/egypt-crosses-the-line.html

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 15 August 2013 13:17 (twelve years ago)

I asked an engineer named Mohamed Latif in a village called El-Araba if he believed that the coup had been a mistake. “No,” he said. “He failed. I won’t vote for them again. I don’t want democracy.” He continued, “Does China have democracy? How is its economy doing? I don’t care about democracy and freedom.”

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 15 August 2013 13:22 (twelve years ago)

I keep hearing that the US has continued to provide aid (including military aid) to Egypt because that way, the US government says that it can ensure that its interests are protected(Suez Canal open, etc.) but with Egypt now getting lots of aid from Saudia Arabia, Quatar, and the UAE, and the Egyptian miliary doing what it wants, is the aid giving the US any influence? Shouldn't it be cut off (even as a symbolic gesture)?

curmudgeon, Thursday, 15 August 2013 16:19 (twelve years ago)

President Obama, deploring the military-led Egyptian government’s deadly crackdown on Muslim Brotherhood protesters there, said on Thursday that the United States would pull out of scheduled joint military exercises with the Egyptian Army in the Sinai Peninsula.

But no change re the 1.3 billion in aid

curmudgeon, Thursday, 15 August 2013 18:44 (twelve years ago)

http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/transition-military-dictatorship.html

Don't always agree with him, but this is worth reading

curmudgeon, Thursday, 15 August 2013 18:48 (twelve years ago)

Shouldn't it be cut off (even as a symbolic gesture)?

my guess is that their thinking is along the lines of "if we think its a mess now, imagine what a mess it will be without our money propping up the military"

OH MY GOD HE'S GOOGLY (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 August 2013 19:22 (twelve years ago)

grisly images within

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/08/14/egypt-many-are-dead-but-we-are-still-in-the-streets/

Miss Arlington twirls for the Coal Heavers (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 August 2013 19:48 (twelve years ago)

Video of that armored car going over the edge in Rabaa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeTQJrFMzns

Elvis Telecom, Friday, 16 August 2013 03:48 (twelve years ago)

it's been interesting to see how that's been run by different news orgs

and like, the people i follow on the american left seem to be clueless how to feel about it--that video in particular, i mean

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 16 August 2013 04:18 (twelve years ago)

why do you think that is?

Mordy , Friday, 16 August 2013 04:57 (twelve years ago)

armored car wasn't thrown--driver just panicked and went in reverse, according to the photog:

http://m.animalnewyork.com/2013/holy-shit-egypt/

max, Friday, 16 August 2013 10:30 (twelve years ago)

That seemed pretty clear from the video

Elvis Telecom, Friday, 16 August 2013 11:19 (twelve years ago)

I have argued that Morsi supporters shouldn't be any more rejected than Christian center-right parties (or the Republicans in the US) as legitimate representatives of pious, traditionalist Muslims if one wants democracy to function properly

i'm cool with exterminating all of these

in France they piss on Main Street (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 August 2013 11:23 (twelve years ago)

Funny how some nations are allow to "kill their own people" but others aren't allowed to "kill their own people".

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Friday, 16 August 2013 12:30 (twelve years ago)

no nation kills their own people, they just have different measures of who constitutes the enemy within

in France they piss on Main Street (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 August 2013 12:34 (twelve years ago)

which nations would you say are most allowed to "kill their own people," and what is the governing body that gives (or refuses) permission for such an action?

Mordy , Friday, 16 August 2013 12:38 (twelve years ago)

how far up does the appeals process go for execution?

in France they piss on Main Street (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 August 2013 12:42 (twelve years ago)

(My post wasn't a dig at the US executing people btw)

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Friday, 16 August 2013 12:49 (twelve years ago)

no i get that it was just my first thought re: Mordy's gentle teasing

in France they piss on Main Street (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 August 2013 13:57 (twelve years ago)

why do you think that is?

― Mordy , Friday, August 16, 2013 4:57 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think there are swaths of the american left who will always side with people pushing cop cars off bridges and swaths of the american left who will always side against people they imagine to be religious fanatics/with "the liberals"

the picture here is more nuanced than that, but the dichotomy in reactions between horror and celebration by people whose side i tend to share has been striking.

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 16 August 2013 14:19 (twelve years ago)

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/08/16/Saudi-King-Abdullah-declares-support-of-Egypt-against-terrorism.html

Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz announced on Friday that the kingdom supports Egypt in its fight “against terrorism.”

King Abdullah said Egypt’s stability is being targeted by “haters,” warning that anyone interfering in Egypt’s internal affairs is "igniting sedition." King Abdullah added that Egypt is able to cross to safety.

R'LIAH (goole), Friday, 16 August 2013 15:55 (twelve years ago)

From a July 9 column by Khaled Abou El Fadl

It speaks volumes that no country did more to undermine Morsi's regime and no government openly celebrated his overthrow more than the Saudi government. This is because the Saudi government understands something that all of the rejoicing people in Egypt are failing to understand. Another military coup means the death of the Egyptian democratic experiment. Saudi Arabia realizes what will come next. The exclusion of the Islamists will lead to radicalization, and radicalization will mean violence, and violence will be the foundation upon which the military and old security forces of Mubarak will arrest, torture, and kill all in the name of public safety and high national interests. Saudi Arabia understands that the democratic threat that the Egyptian experiment once posed to Saudi autocracy is over because today, it is the Brotherhood that is being thrown in prison and possibly tortured.

In the contemporaneous interview with Ian Masters I posted upthread, El Fadl notes the economic sanctions (like halts in oil exports) the Sauds took against Morsi's Egypt, the constant criticism of the MB by Saudi's state news outlet Al Arabiya, as well as the close ties between Saudi royals who own businesses and property in Egypt and Mubarak's old pals.

Sanpaku, Friday, 16 August 2013 16:30 (twelve years ago)

The National Review says "Back Egypt's Military"

http://nationalreview.com/article/355956/back-egypts-military-editors

I'm surprised by that for some reason, I know I shouldn't be.

eris bueller (lukas), Friday, 16 August 2013 16:50 (twelve years ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/25-egyptian-police-recruits-gunned-down-by-militants-in-sinai-mubarak-could-be-released/2013/08/19/dc77447e-08bf-11e3-8974-f97ab3b3c677_story.html?hpid=z1

Mubarak may be freed on bond; detainees killed in custody; and more...Things are happening fast today

curmudgeon, Monday, 19 August 2013 14:08 (twelve years ago)

letting Mubarak out, real genius move there...

this country is fucked

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 19 August 2013 18:05 (twelve years ago)

seems like a good time to revive this question:

is morsi going to survive this? y/n

― Mordy , Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:10 PM (1 month ago)

Mordy , Monday, 19 August 2013 18:31 (twelve years ago)

I'm gonna guess no, it seems at the moment like a reinstatement of the previous status quo is likely...? ie military in charge, muslim brotherhood outlawed/marginalized

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 19 August 2013 18:46 (twelve years ago)

welp

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/201382013218872674.html

Cairo court has set a September trial date for Mohamed ElBaradei, the recently-resigned interim vice president for foreign affairs, on charges of "breaching national trust."

He stands accused of "betraying" the public by resigning on August 14, a misdemeanour charge that could carry an $1,430 fine if he is convicted. The longtime diplomat stepped down hours after security forces brutally dispersed two protests in support of deposed President Mohamed Morsi, killing at least 830 people, according to official figures.

According to the complaint, ElBaradei's resignation gave the wrong impression to the international community, suggesting that the Egyptian government had used excessive force against protesters. "This contradicts reality," the complaint said.

BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 20 August 2013 14:45 (twelve years ago)

lol so petty

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 20 August 2013 15:25 (twelve years ago)

it's weird to watch both sides so cynically attempt to claim the moral high ground

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 20 August 2013 15:58 (twelve years ago)

I hope Bush and Cheney are proud pappas every time they hear Egyptians and Syrians talk about our never ending war on terrorism

panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Tuesday, 20 August 2013 16:16 (twelve years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23777201

Chemical weapons attack near Damascus, according to rebels.

army surplus newspapers (dowd), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 07:20 (twelve years ago)

this shit sounds so fucking bad i don't even want to turn on my TV tonight.

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 16:51 (twelve years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23782685

EU member states have agreed to suspend export licences for any equipment that could be used for repression in Egypt, but humanitarian aid will continue.

The decision was announced by EU foreign policy chief Baroness Ashton after emergency talks in Brussels.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 16:54 (twelve years ago)

That's the only good news

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 17:00 (twelve years ago)

letting Mubarak out, real genius move there...

this country is fucked

― what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 19 August 2013 18:05 (2 days ago) Permalink

or acknowledging their mistake.

his days as a leader looks like paradise now

nostormo, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 17:04 (twelve years ago)

Not exactly.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 17:18 (twelve years ago)

his days as a leader looks like paradise now

― nostormo, Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:04 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

jailing tens of thousands of people & bombing domestic opponents vs a trigger happy army going in on the same domestic opponents

sort of a 6 of one, half dozen of the other sort of thing, isnt it

there are more than 3.5 HOOS per steen (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 17:28 (twelve years ago)

man i'm remembering that moment from a couple of years ago where it was like 'the heroic and honorable army will not fire on the protesters in tahrir square'

hell

there are more than 3.5 HOOS per steen (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 17:30 (twelve years ago)

this is so fucked up:

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-c1-syria-aleppo-crossing-20130821-dto,0,3536724.htmlstory

christmas candy bar (al leong), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 21:07 (twelve years ago)

Doesn't speak well for the rebels that they're not organized enough to put some sandbags or Hesco bastions on the side of the bridge facing the sniper.

Hell, cardboard boxes would be enough to provide visual cover.

400ml rectal air infusion (Sanpaku), Thursday, 22 August 2013 19:53 (twelve years ago)

Watched the chemical weapons attack video. Wished I didn't - regardless of the authenticity.

Elvis Telecom, Friday, 23 August 2013 03:21 (twelve years ago)

JOINT BASE LEWIS-MCCHORD, Wash. -- A military jury has sentenced a U.S. soldier who massacred 16 Afghan civilians last year to life in prison without a chance of parole.
The decision came Friday in the case against Staff Sgt. Robert Bales who pleaded guilty in June in a deal to avoid the death penalty for one of the worst atrocities of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

Mordy , Friday, 23 August 2013 18:30 (twelve years ago)

nothin but good news lately amirite

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 23 August 2013 18:33 (twelve years ago)

ugh - was hoping that dempsey's statement the other day against open involvement in syria was a good sign that this was maybe becoming the cw in the administration but there's alot of chatter that obama's leaning toward a strike at a minimum and possibly larger nato involvement (actual land invasion seemingly still completely off the table, the most ambitious plan i've heard evoked kosovo). apparently ships are in position. weird how much snowden plays into this tangentially. i'm not sure if prism reveal reduces obama's options or if he's cut bait and that crowd won't factor in the argument, tilting the cw even more towards the hawks. proxy war implications here pretty obv also.

balls, Sunday, 25 August 2013 02:37 (twelve years ago)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/06/syria-pseudo-struggle-egypt

Mordy , Friday, 6 September 2013 23:15 (twelve years ago)

the ending line about china is dumb but i think a lot of the rest (esp re developing new social units) is smart

Mordy , Friday, 6 September 2013 23:19 (twelve years ago)

Yeah, a pretty reasonable Zizek piece that doesn't stray off into insanity,

Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Friday, 6 September 2013 23:27 (twelve years ago)

Has there been any discussion on ILM about the imprisonment and, as of today, hunger strike of Tarek Loubani and John Greyson.

If not, I'm posting that, and this apropos link anyways.

Fiddler on a hot tin roof (ed.b), Tuesday, 17 September 2013 02:21 (twelve years ago)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/09/22/kenyan_mall_attack_how_is_israel_involved.html

lol headline but actually kinda interesting cooperation

Mordy , Monday, 23 September 2013 01:13 (twelve years ago)

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/09/30/130930fa_fact_filkins

goole, Monday, 23 September 2013 22:08 (twelve years ago)

Several Middle Eastern officials, some of whom I have known for a decade, stopped talking the moment I brought up Suleimani. “We don’t want to have any part of this,” a Kurdish official in Iraq said. Among spies in the West, he appears to exist in a special category, an enemy both hated and admired: a Middle Eastern equivalent of Karla, the elusive Soviet master spy in John le Carré’s novels. When I called Dagan, the former Mossad chief, and mentioned Suleimani’s name, there was a long pause on the line. “Ah,” he said, in a tone of weary irony, “a very good friend.”

goole, Monday, 23 September 2013 22:16 (twelve years ago)

ha - just came to this thread to post that exact quote

Mordy , Monday, 23 September 2013 22:28 (twelve years ago)

Before the bombing began, Crocker sensed that the Iranians were growing impatient with the Bush Administration, thinking that it was taking too long to attack the Taliban. At a meeting in early October, 2001, the lead Iranian negotiator stood up and slammed a sheaf of papers on the table. “If you guys don’t stop building these fairy-tale governments in the sky, and actually start doing some shooting on the ground, none of this is ever going to happen!” he shouted. “When you’re ready to talk about serious fighting, you know where to find me.” He stomped out of the room. “It was a great moment,” Crocker said.

Mordy , Monday, 23 September 2013 22:45 (twelve years ago)

horrifying:

“The battlefield is mankind’s lost paradise—the paradise in which morality and human conduct are at their highest,” he says. “One type of paradise that men imagine is about streams, beautiful maidens, and lush landscape. But there is another kind of paradise—the battlefield.”

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 23 September 2013 22:54 (twelve years ago)

ryan crocker, not a fan of david frum:

The good will didn’t last. In January, 2002, Crocker, who was by then the deputy chief of the American Embassy in Kabul, was awakened one night by aides, who told him that President George W. Bush, in his State of the Union Address, had named Iran as part of an “Axis of Evil.” Like many senior diplomats, Crocker was caught off guard. He saw the negotiator the next day at the U.N. compound in Kabul, and he was furious. “You completely damaged me,” Crocker recalled him saying. “Suleimani is in a tearing rage. He feels compromised.” The negotiator told Crocker that, at great political risk, Suleimani had been contemplating a complete reëvaluation of the United States, saying, “Maybe it’s time to rethink our relationship with the Americans.” The Axis of Evil speech brought the meetings to an end. Reformers inside the government, who had advocated a rapprochement with the United States, were put on the defensive. Recalling that time, Crocker shook his head. “We were just that close,” he said. “One word in one speech changed history.”

goole, Tuesday, 24 September 2013 16:14 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/world/middleeast/israel-iran-netanyahu-speech.html

Khodadad Seifi, a deputy ambassador at Iran’s Mission to the United Nations, said afterward that his country had found Mr. Netanyahu’s speech inflammatory, rejected the notion that Iran was building a nuclear arsenal, and asserted its right to self-defense.

“The Israeli Prime Minister better not even think about attacking Iran let alone planning for that,” the Iranian ambassador said. He capped his remarks by saying that Iran’s “smile policy” was better than “lying.”

What is a 'smile policy'?

Mordy , Tuesday, 1 October 2013 22:50 (twelve years ago)

Read that as "Khodadad Selfi" and thought "that's the guy that's gonna know"

Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Wednesday, 2 October 2013 00:24 (twelve years ago)

The Islamic Republic of Iran has been elected as rapporteur of the UN First Committee on Disarmament and International Security for the 68th annual meeting.

lolz.

Mordy , Wednesday, 2 October 2013 16:11 (twelve years ago)

Just saw this. Interesting response from the govmnt. Mossad? Syrian connection?

Ma mère est habile Mais ma bile est amère (Michael White), Thursday, 3 October 2013 17:05 (twelve years ago)

From what I understand Mossad never (rarely?) does the internal Iranian sabotage themselves, but they do train/work w/ internal Iranian dissent/resistance groups? Also he doesn't seem particularly linked to nuclear development or organizing eg Hezbollah, Hamas. Could have Mossad fingerprints on the group that carried it out but I'd personally be surprised if Israeli intelligence directed this assassination. Of course maybe Bibi is really serious about bombing Iran now that Obama is entering negotiations w/ Tehran and is expanding targets to all Iranian national security assets.

^ sorry, obvs a lot of speculation here

Mordy , Thursday, 3 October 2013 17:10 (twelve years ago)

Mossad agents in Iran are unlikely to be Israeli. The timing screams Bibi but either Rouhaini thinks it's not an opportune time to raise the temperature right now or they have genuine doubts that it actually was Mossad.

Ma mère est habile Mais ma bile est amère (Michael White), Thursday, 3 October 2013 17:15 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/oct/24/terror-hidden-source/?pagination=false

Mordy , Saturday, 5 October 2013 04:25 (twelve years ago)

Still kind of surprised there's been almost zero discussion of Tarek Loubani and John Greyson's imprisonment (was there no news of this outside Canada - serious question), but anyways, they're out!

Fiddler on a hot tin roof (ed.b), Sunday, 6 October 2013 05:03 (twelve years ago)

No discussion on ILX, that is.

Fiddler on a hot tin roof (ed.b), Sunday, 6 October 2013 05:04 (twelve years ago)

http://ottomansandzionists.com/2013/10/17/turkey-spies-like-us/

Mordy , Friday, 18 October 2013 01:32 (twelve years ago)

https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/commentaryanalysis/assads-terror-famine

Mordy , Friday, 18 October 2013 18:55 (twelve years ago)

Saudi Arabia says security council is bullshit if they can't even stop a war in syria:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/19/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-rejects-security-council-seat.html

Mordy , Friday, 18 October 2013 18:55 (twelve years ago)

everyone is talking about how insane the SA decision is - how it seemed to be last minute

also i first heard it was primarily about Syria (this morning on BBC) but now i hear Iran has a lot to do w/ it too-- is SA worried that current negotiations are about to let iran off the hook re nukes?

Mordy , Friday, 18 October 2013 20:07 (twelve years ago)

“The Saudis no doubt quickly realized that being on the U.N.S.C. would mean they could no longer pursue their traditional back-seat and low-key policies and therefore decided to give it up,” said Bernard Haykel, a professor of Near Eastern studies at Princeton University and an authority on Saudi Arabia.

“Regardless of the short-term costs, a seat on the U.N.S.C. may have also meant that Saudi Arabia would be more constrained in backing the Syrian opposition,” Mr. Haykel said in an e-mail.

as if being on the security council ever stopped other countries from backing rebel groups

Mordy , Friday, 18 October 2013 20:10 (twelve years ago)

i always kind of wonder what it's like to be a country that's not the US where UN politics actually matter to you

goole, Friday, 18 October 2013 20:11 (twelve years ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2013/10/18/why-did-saudi-arabia-reject-a-un-security-council-seat/

Why then did they change their minds at the last moment? One speculative hypothesis is that they were impressed by the U.S. cutting off the delivery of large-scale military systems to Egypt, suggesting that the threat of aid removal has become more credible. The increased credibility of that threat may be enhanced by increasing energy production in the U.S. The expected cost of getting into serious trouble with the U.S. may just have gone up enough to make participation in the Security Council simply no longer worth it.

$10,000 in aid a year acc to foreignassistance.gov so what exactly are they worried about? maybe stuff like http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-29/u-s-saudi-formally-sign-boeing-f-15-jet-deal-proposed-in-2010.html ?

Mordy , Friday, 18 October 2013 20:19 (twelve years ago)

Frederic Wherey, a Saudi expert at the Carnegie Endowment, said: "This is a dramatic but ineffectual gesture. The Saudis realised the tide of the security council was against them on portfolios they care about. But operationally, it doesn't mean much. It's more theatrics than substance."

Maggishos soyfriend. Wins. (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Friday, 18 October 2013 21:45 (twelve years ago)

Pregnant women in Syria are being picked off by snipers in a sickening war game in which their unborn babies appear to be used for target practice, according to a British surgeon.

David Nott, who has just spent five weeks volunteering in a Syrian hospital, said that he and his despairing colleagues started to notice a disturbing pattern among the women and children who were being shot as they ran the daily gauntlet across a divided zone to buy food and supplies in a major city.

"One day it would be shots to the groin. The next, it would only be the left chest. The day after, we would see no chest wounds; they were all neck [wounds]," he said in an interview with The Times. "From the first patients that came in in the morning, you could almost tell what you would see for the rest of the day. It was a game. We heard the snipers were winning packets of cigarettes for hitting the correct number of targets."

this is horrific if true. from times of london -- not sure how reputable their stories are?

Mordy , Monday, 21 October 2013 14:35 (twelve years ago)

Washington Post's neo-con editorial page editor offers 2 editorials expressing anger at Obama re Syria because of Assad statement in an interview in a Lebanese paper:

Mr. Assad’s latest statements might be dismissed as so much bluster. But they are entirely plausible. The regime did manage to trade an arsenal that had outlived its original purpose for the cancellation of a U.S. military onslaught that might have tipped the balance in the civil war. That deal prompted further divisions in the U.S.-backed opposition and triggered a number of rebel groups to switch allegiance to an Islamist front. The Geneva meeting is looking doubtful, in part because U.S. diplomats are unable to explain how it could lead to Mr. Assad’s departure. Perhaps it’s no surprise that it’s Mr. Assad rather than Mr. Obama who wants to talk about this. For the United States, it’s a bleak and shameful picture.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/syrias-crisis-averted-not-so-fast/2013/10/20/99062f90-380b-11e3-ae46-e4248e75c8ea_story.html

and also here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fred-hiatt-obamas-u-turn-on-human-rights/2013/10/20/7040e52c-3807-11e3-80c6-7e6dd8d22d8f_story.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop

curmudgeon, Monday, 21 October 2013 20:42 (twelve years ago)

finkelstein tells mondoweiss readers that they're morons:
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/10/american-opinion-ignored.html

Mordy , Tuesday, 22 October 2013 19:22 (twelve years ago)

Is it really this simple, and are Palestinian leaders who urge folks not to vote that blinded by principle (I guess so):

If Arab residents voted en masse like the ultra-Orthodox minority, Mr. Margalit said in an interview, they could win enough seats not only to demand better garbage pickup and more playgrounds, but to “change history” by blocking the Jewish settlement expansion that they say threatens their future capital and the two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

“I would like to see them be more pragmatic,” Mr. Margalit said. “Ideology is a great thing, but in this specific context, ideology is not the main issue. The main issue is how to save East Jerusalem. In order to do it, they have to do it in the political arena.”

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 14:13 (twelve years ago)

Upset at President Barack Obama's policies on Iran and Syria, members of Saudi Arabia's ruling family are threatening a rift with the United States that could take the alliance between Washington and the kingdom to its lowest point in years.

Saudi Arabia's intelligence chief is vowing that the kingdom will make a 'major shift' in relations with the United States to protest perceived American inaction over Syria's civil war as well as recent U.S. overtures to Iran, a source close to Saudi policy said on Tuesday.

Mordy , Friday, 25 October 2013 05:05 (twelve years ago)

yeah that's a big deal. idk what to think of it.

one one hand it's never good one when one country loses an ally. on the other, it's saudi arabia.

goole, Friday, 25 October 2013 14:51 (twelve years ago)

big protests going on in SA atm re women driving

Mordy , Friday, 25 October 2013 14:59 (twelve years ago)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/25/saudi-arabia-women-action-driving-laws

Mordy , Friday, 25 October 2013 14:59 (twelve years ago)

The Obama administration appears to be deadlocked over what to do in Syria, forcing a policy of inaction, according to a widely circulating New York Times story. But U.S. officials will likely have years more time to debate what to do about Syria's civil war, which could continue into and perhaps through the next presidential administration. According to a review of the political science on the duration of civil wars, Syria's conflict will most likely last through 2020 and perhaps well beyond.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/10/23/political-science-says-syrias-civil-war-will-probably-last-at-least-another-decade/?tid=up_next

curmudgeon, Friday, 25 October 2013 15:59 (twelve years ago)

anti-israel right reviews book from the anti-israel left:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/will-israel-go-fascist/

book sparks 90s era intra-democrat fight

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/clinton-adviser-sid-blumenthals-new-cause-his-sons-anti-isra

goole, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 20:05 (twelve years ago)

haha were following this on twitter? boy, what a day

max, Thursday, 7 November 2013 01:57 (twelve years ago)

uh no. a few stray mentions of it. but i must not be following the core ppl.

goole, Thursday, 7 November 2013 03:12 (twelve years ago)

centerpiece of it was an excruciating back-and-forth btw gray and labor reporter m1k3 3lk, plus appearances by eli lake, max b himself, the mondoweiss crew, etc

max, Thursday, 7 November 2013 12:40 (twelve years ago)

Saudi Arabia has invested in Pakistani nuclear weapons projects, and believes it could obtain atomic bombs at will, a variety of sources have told BBC Newsnight.

While the kingdom's quest has often been set in the context of countering Iran's atomic programme, it is now possible that the Saudis might be able to deploy such devices more quickly than the Islamic republic.

Earlier this year, a senior Nato decision maker told me that he had seen intelligence reporting that nuclear weapons made in Pakistan on behalf of Saudi Arabia are now sitting ready for delivery.

Last month Amos Yadlin, a former head of Israeli military intelligence, told a conference in Sweden that if Iran got the bomb, "the Saudis will not wait one month. They already paid for the bomb, they will go to Pakistan and bring what they need to bring."

Since 2009, when King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia warned visiting US special envoy to the Middle East Dennis Ross that if Iran crossed the threshold, "we will get nuclear weapons", the kingdom has sent the Americans numerous signals of its intentions.

Mordy , Thursday, 7 November 2013 16:03 (twelve years ago)

http://www.mrdrybones.com/blog/D07204_2.gif

ok i lol'd a little

Mordy , Thursday, 7 November 2013 16:15 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/world/iran-nuclear-talks.html

Mordy , Sunday, 10 November 2013 00:42 (twelve years ago)

mondoweiss types are blaming the israel lobby for influencing france. if you had any doubt that the 'lobby' was just lysergic conspiracy, the conjuring of them to explain french resistance to negotiations should seal things. i've even seen multiple comments in the NYT, MW, Haaretz, etc blaming the 'Rothschild banking family of France' for jettisoning a deal. right, whatever.

Mordy , Sunday, 10 November 2013 14:09 (twelve years ago)

xp

lol my first thought when i heard about the French objections was "well nobody's gonna be able to pin this one on Israel"

. (Noodle Vague), Monday, 11 November 2013 21:33 (twelve years ago)

lack of faith

Mordy , Monday, 11 November 2013 22:03 (twelve years ago)

they keep pointing out how fabius' mother was a convert from judaism. u know there's a zio-conspiracy there!

Mordy , Monday, 11 November 2013 22:23 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2013/nov/11/irans-plutonium-game/

Mordy , Tuesday, 12 November 2013 04:33 (twelve years ago)

lysergic conspiracy

Why are you bringing acid into this

how's life, Tuesday, 12 November 2013 10:43 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/dec/05/syria-way-genocide/

Mordy , Monday, 18 November 2013 18:43 (twelve years ago)

Well, that's depressing.

I spoke with the veteran Moroccan diplomat Mokhtar Lamani, who has been the UN–Arab League representative on the ground in Syria since September last year. “If there is no political solution,” he said, “I would not be surprised to see a genocide.” Lest I misunderstand him, I asked him to repeat his view. In slightly different form, he stated, “The ingredients are there for a genocide in a few months.” He did not say whether he meant a genocide by government or rebel forces or mass killing on both sides.

curmudgeon, Monday, 18 November 2013 20:04 (twelve years ago)

While Syrians do most of the fighting and dying, both sides have welcomed foreigners into their ranks. Iranians and Lebanese Shiites reinforce the government army, while Sunni jihadists from more than forty countries have become the revolt’s shock troops. They are less concerned with majoritarian democracy than with deposing a president whose primary offenses they consider to be his membership in an Islamic sect, the Alawites, that they condemn as apostate, and his alliance with Shiite Iran. A Red Cross worker who, like Lamani, has worked on both sides of the barricades, said, “If there are secularist rebels, I haven’t met them.”

Mordy , Tuesday, 19 November 2013 05:12 (twelve years ago)

(Reuters) - Two suicide bombings rocked Iran's embassy compound in Lebanon on Tuesday, killing at least 23 people including an Iranian cultural attaché and hurling bodies and burning wreckage across a debris-strewn street.

A Lebanon-based al Qaeda-linked group, the Abdullah Azzam Brigades, claimed responsibility and threatened further attacks unless Iran withdraw forces from Syria, where they have backed President Bashar al-Assad's 2-1/2-year-old war against rebels.

Security camera footage showed a man in an explosives belt rushing towards the outer wall of the embassy before blowing himself up, Lebanese officials said. They said a car bomb parked two buildings away from the compound had caused the second, deadlier explosion. The Lebanese army, however, said both blasts were suicide attacks.

Mordy , Tuesday, 19 November 2013 14:28 (twelve years ago)

I remember when I used to believe suicide bombers were indicative of a helpless civilian population who must resort to suicide out of emotional/physical distress - as opposed to a really shitty political development propagated by shitty human beings.

Mordy , Tuesday, 19 November 2013 14:30 (twelve years ago)

i think the people who wear the vests are probably vulnerable and depressed; the men who are building the vests and planning the attacks are not

(can't remember where i read all this but) terrorist planners know who to look for. it is weaponized depression, of a kind.

goole, Tuesday, 19 November 2013 18:17 (twelve years ago)

I thought this recent article was very interesting on the subject: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/10/24/russia_s_mysterious_deadly_phenomenon_of_new_black_widows

Yusup told me how his Arab commander was able to prepare an entire brigade of troops who were not merely prepared for death but desired it. "Lots of different people came to this forest. Some were hyper, wanting to fight, to train, but there were always people who lacked a certain amount of attention at home, lacked love," Yusup said. "These were weak people, who just wanted to be respected and loved, and Khattab was a very good psychologist. He was able to spot such people and assign to them a particular instructor. The first thing that these people received upon entering the collective was love. They were called brothers and sisters, they were coddled, food was prepared for them, prayers were read with them, much time was spent in conversation with them. Then -- all of a sudden -- the instructor would begin asking, almost as a passing thought, whether there were strong brothers among them who would be willing to sacrifice themselves for Allah and for the sake of the common goal. And many among the weak wanted to become strong."

Yusup explained how at their base even the most pathetic felt powerful, a feeling they had seldom felt among their domineering elders and siblings back home. It was that feeling of empowerment which drew them back into the forest like a magnet. "If a terrorist attack is being prepared and the person carrying it out begins to feel fear or doubt, he would not be forced into it," said Yusup. "If today he couldn't do it, another brother or sister would go, while he would continue receiving love and affection until it became more terrible for him to be thrown out of this community, to lose its respect and love, than to die. Through death, you would become a hero; through escape -- a traitor and a coward. And in any case, everyone understood that you would never be forgiven if you wanted to abandon the community."

Mordy , Tuesday, 19 November 2013 19:40 (twelve years ago)

Inside The One-Man Intelligence Unit That Exposed The Secrets And Atrocities Of Syria's War

Mordy , Tuesday, 19 November 2013 21:26 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/world/asia/key-issue-said-to-be-resolved-in-us-afghan-security-talks.html

If Obama apologizes, the US maybe gets to continue doing counterterrorism sweeps of private Afghan homes.

The letter would clarify what was meant by “extraordinary circumstances” justifying home raids, and go beyond that as well. “The idea was to indeed mention that there were mistakes made in the conduct of military operations in the past, in the conduct of military operations by United States forces in the last decade, and that Afghans have suffered, and that we understand the pain and therefore we give assurances and make sure those mistakes are not repeated,” Mr. Faizi said.

Afghan officials said they expected to see the text of the letter by Wednesday before Mr. Karzai signs off on the security agreement.

With one day remaining to finalize the wording of the security agreement before the loya jirga meets, Mr. Faizi said that was the remaining issue in talks, carried out in their last phase by Mr. Karzai with the American ambassador, James B. Cunningham, and the American military commander, Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr.

Will Obama apologize? Y/N

Mordy , Wednesday, 20 November 2013 05:26 (twelve years ago)

Kerry says Yes, Susan Rice says No

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 November 2013 18:13 (twelve years ago)

I'm thinking none of the above. A letter that's not an apology and maybe not signed by Obama, but admits unintentional mistakes

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 20 November 2013 18:15 (twelve years ago)

naftali bennett being interviewed on charlie rose atm

Mordy , Wednesday, 20 November 2013 22:31 (twelve years ago)

http://www.thenational.ae/world/europe/pope-francis-says-no-middle-east-without-christians

“We will not resign ourselves to imagining a Middle East without Christians,” he said after meeting with Patriarchs from Syria, Irak and Egypt, before calling for “the universal right to lead a dignified life and freely practise one’s own faith to be respected”.

Mordy , Thursday, 21 November 2013 15:06 (twelve years ago)

Deal Reached With Iran Halts Its Nuclear Program

According to the agreement, Iran would agree to stop enriching uranium beyond 5 percent. To make good on that pledge, Iran would dismantle links between networks of centrifuges.

All of Iran’s stockpile of uranium that has been enriched to 20 percent, a short hop to weapons-grade fuel, would be diluted or converted into oxide so that it could not be readily used for military purposes.

No new centrifuges, neither old models nor newer more efficient ones, could be installed. Centrifuges that have been installed but which are not currently operating could not be started up.

The agreement, however, would not require Iran to stop enriching uranium to a level of 3.5 percent or dismantle any of its existing centrifuges.

The accord was a disappointment for Israel, which urged the United States to pursue a stronger agreement that would lead to a complete end to Iran’s enrichment program.

But Iran made it clear that continuing enrichment was a prerequisite for any agreement.

The United States did not accept Iran’s claim that it had a “right to enrich” under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. But American officials signaled earlier this week that they were open to a compromise in which the two sides would essentially agree to disagree on how the proliferation treaty should be interpreted, while Tehran continued to enrich.

In return for the initial agreement, the United States has agreed to provide $6 billion to $7 billion in sanctions relief, American officials said. Of this, roughly $4.2 billion would be oil revenue that has been frozen in foreign banks.

Mordy , Sunday, 24 November 2013 04:20 (twelve years ago)

Technically, ~20% enriched U is necessary to run most research reactor designs (which produce much of the world's medical isotopes), of which many are in non-nuclear-weapon states. The Non-Proliferation Treaty seems pretty explicit in not infringing upon research/medical applications. Bet China gets the contracts for the light water reactors.

Still, kudos to the negotiators for defusing this issue.

charm/anti-charm annihilation (Sanpaku), Sunday, 24 November 2013 04:49 (twelve years ago)

Correction, HEU is neccessary for targets for medical isotope production. There's been a big push to convert most of the world's research reactors from HEU to LEU over the past 25 years. Further detail.

charm/anti-charm annihilation (Sanpaku), Sunday, 24 November 2013 05:05 (twelve years ago)

Syrian rebels consider joining forces with regime troops to fight al-Qa’ida

One senior Western intelligence official stressed that the Syrian regime’s forces must be preserved for the battles ahead against the Islamists and the need to avoid the mistakes made in Iraq and Libya, where the army and police were disbanded with the fall of Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi, allowing terrorist groups to rise in a security vacuum.

The official held that talks between the regime and rebels set to take place in Geneva in January could be the beginning of the formation of an anti-al-Qa’ida front in Syria, along with a negotiated settlement to end the conflict which has claimed more than 117,000 lives so far and made millions refugees inside and outside the country.

Anti-fascist grove thang (Sanpaku), Saturday, 7 December 2013 05:35 (twelve years ago)

http://poy.time.com/2013/12/06/how-egypts-gen-al-sisi-won-times-person-of-the-year-poll/

Mordy , Wednesday, 11 December 2013 10:51 (twelve years ago)

remember when the US was just about to start arming the rebels w/ weapons?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/12/world/middleeast/us-suspends-nonlethal-aid-to-syrian-rebels-in-north.html

Mordy , Thursday, 12 December 2013 05:18 (twelve years ago)

very interesting: http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/names-of-the-revolution/

Mordy , Sunday, 15 December 2013 03:19 (twelve years ago)

Too many options for a poll, I suppose...

badgers moved the goalposts (dowd), Sunday, 15 December 2013 05:39 (twelve years ago)

Washington Post's neo-con op-ed page editor Fred Hyatt today asserts that the Syrian humanitarian food crisis is just about the same as the Darfur one from awhile back, and that there's no reason why the Obama administration can't solve it. Not even gonna link to that overly simplistic take from a guy who's itching to get the US active in Syria and Iran

curmudgeon, Monday, 16 December 2013 17:16 (twelve years ago)

how the kurds are beating al-q in syrian northeast:
http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/syrias-kurds-beating-al-qaeda-balint-szlanko/

Mordy , Wednesday, 18 December 2013 04:47 (twelve years ago)

Western nations have indicated to the Syrian opposition that peace next month talks may not lead to the removal of President Bashar al-Assad and that his Alawite minority will remain key in any transitional administration, opposition sources said.

The message, delivered to senior members of the Syrian National Coalition at a meeting of the anti-Assad Friends of Syria alliance in London last week, was prompted by rise of al-Qaeda and other militant groups, and their takeover of a border crossing and arms depots near Turkey belonging to the moderate Free Syrian Army, the sources told Reuters.

“Our Western friends made it clear in London that Assad cannot be allowed to go now because they think chaos and an Islamist militant takeover would ensue,” said one senior member of the Coalition who is close to officials from Saudi Arabia.

Noting the possibility of Assad holding a presidential election when his term formally ends next year, the Coalition member added: “Some do not even seem to mind if he runs again next year, forgetting he gassed his own people.”

The shift in Western priorities, particularly the United States and Britain, from removing Assad towards combating Islamist militants is causing divisions within international powers backing the nearly three-year-old revolt, according to diplomats and senior members of the coalition.

Mordy , Wednesday, 18 December 2013 18:42 (twelve years ago)

surely the point of representative democracy is you can gas your own people but they'll remember it next election?

the five people you meet in Hedon (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 18 December 2013 18:44 (twelve years ago)

i'm sure the next elections will be free + fair!

Mordy , Wednesday, 18 December 2013 18:47 (twelve years ago)

we can't allow free and fair elections to endanger democracy, tho

the five people you meet in Hedon (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 18 December 2013 18:51 (twelve years ago)

boom

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/12/18/israel_s_demographic_time_bomb_is_a_dud_israel_arab_two_state_solution

There are countless reasons for Israelis and Palestinians to seek peace, but a false demographic panic should not be one of them.

Mordy , Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:33 (twelve years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-jailing-the-most-journalists.html

For the second consecutive year, Turkey is imprisoning more journalists than any other country, according to a report from the Committee to Protect Journalists released Wednesday. Turkey was followed by Iran and China; the three countries account for more than half of the 211 journalists jailed worldwide as of Dec. 1. The number of journalists killed and imprisoned fell in 2013, but the year was the second worst for the number of imprisoned since record keeping began in 1990; the worst was last year, when 232 were held. The report said 52 journalists were killed so far this year. The largest number, 21, were killed in Syria’s civil war. The second largest number of fatalities was in Egypt, with six dead.

Mordy , Thursday, 19 December 2013 05:15 (twelve years ago)

good piece: http://pando.com/2013/12/19/the-war-nerd-saudis-syria-and-blowback/

Mordy , Thursday, 19 December 2013 19:16 (twelve years ago)

i doubt we'll see a large aliyah movement from the US in the near future, but a little over a half million french jews - maybe:
http://www.jta.org/2013/12/15/news-opinion/world/from-anti-semitism-to-recession-french-jews-find-wealth-of-reasons-to-leave-for-israel

Mordy , Thursday, 19 December 2013 23:29 (twelve years ago)

http://ottomansandzionists.com/2013/12/26/this-is-what-a-panicked-erdogan-looks-like/

Mordy , Thursday, 26 December 2013 16:50 (twelve years ago)

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304361604579288430866906254

Saudi Arabia pledged $3 billion to bolster Lebanon's armed forces, in a challenge to the Iranian-allied Hezbollah militia's decadeslong status as Lebanon's main power broker and security force.

Lebanese President Michel Sleiman revealed the Saudi gift on Lebanese national television Sunday, calling it the largest aid package ever to the country's defense bodies. The Saudi pledge compares with Lebanon's 2012 defense budget, which the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute put at $1.7 billion.

Lebanon would use the Saudi grant to buy "newer and more modern weapons," from France, said Mr. Sleiman, an independent who has become increasingly critical of Hezbollah. It followed what he called "decades of unsuccessful efforts" to build a credible Lebanese national defense force.

As a direct challenge to Hezbollah, the Saudi gift—and the Lebanese president's acceptance—has potential to change the balance of power in Lebanon and the region. It also threatens to raise sectarian and political tensions further in a region already made volatile by the three-year, heavily sectarian civil war next door in Syria.

Mordy , Monday, 30 December 2013 15:46 (twelve years ago)

new middle east thread here:
Rolling MENA 2014

Mordy , Sunday, 5 January 2014 17:34 (twelve years ago)

three months pass...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-txz4VCoikbU/UKpkcjK2PHI/AAAAAAAAGKw/esADD4Qj-QU/s320/Tayyip+Erdogan.jpg

NAME recep tayyip erdogan
TITLE turkish pm
INTERESTS supressing restive minorities, european integration, containing syriafalse flag sarin attacks in syria, sinister sub rosa manipulations
SPECIAL POWERS n/a
ZIONIST RATING b-

― things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Tuesday, 1 January 2013 18:51 (1 year ago)

nakhchivan, Sunday, 6 April 2014 22:04 (twelve years ago)

one year passes...

EDIT

SPECIAL POWERS dispensing advice to suicidal people prevented from jumping off the bosphorus bridge by his bodyguards

http://i.imgur.com/Kv4MHk4.jpg

Turkish-president-Erdogan-stops-motorcade-talk-man-trying-jump-Bosphorus-Bridge.html

The ✓ fan from the hilarious "xd" coombics (nakhchivan), Friday, 25 December 2015 20:34 (ten years ago)

Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s latest comments in favour of greater executive powers are unlikely to help him bring those critics round. On Friday he was quoted by Turkish media as citing a striking example of an effective presidential system – Germany under Adolf Hitler.

Asked on his return from a visit to Saudi Arabia whether an executive presidential system was possible while maintaining the unitary structure of the state, he said: “There are already examples in the world. You can see it when you look at Hitler’s Germany.

“There are later examples in various other countries,” he told reporters, according to a recording broadcast by the Dogan news agency and reported by Reuters.

A Turkish official sought to clarify Erdoğan’s remark. “There are good and poor examples of presidential systems and the important thing is to put checks and balances in place,” he said.

Capybara (big rat) @ Sea World, San Diego, California, USA (nakhchivan), Friday, 1 January 2016 20:14 (ten years ago)

Rated by Recep

Capybara (big rat) @ Sea World, San Diego, California, USA (nakhchivan), Friday, 1 January 2016 20:16 (ten years ago)

lol even if he was "putting aside the invasions and the genocide" he's still offering up an autocratic usurpation of the democratic process as an example of an effective presidential system. well i guess effective might still be in play but only a presidential system in that it very briefly flirted w/ democratic legitimacy b4 jettisoning the entire thing.

Mordy, Friday, 1 January 2016 20:32 (ten years ago)

Asked on his return from a visit to Hitler whether an autocratic system was possible while maintaining the unitary structure of the state, he said: “There are already examples in the world. You can see it when you look at Saudi Arabia, though you need to make sure the autocrat isn't old, senile, bellicose and causing huge budget deficits."

Capybara (big rat) @ Sea World, San Diego, California, USA (nakhchivan), Friday, 1 January 2016 22:35 (ten years ago)


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